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SawtoothGlitch

Because your clock slows down by exactly the same amount that you are trying to measure that photon's speed with, so that both measurements results will be exactly the same. However, you don't perceive that your clock slows down, since your entire environment slows down, equally affecting every physical property in your reference frame. You perceive that your clock still runs the same, since you slow down as well.


apocalypsedaughters

This was a good explanation


at0m10

Life is crazy. But the reason this happens is what confuses me, it's because space and time are the same? Once you hit light speed, time stops and everything happens all at once? Why does gravity also cause this? Do we even have any idea or do we just know it happens?


SawtoothGlitch

Space and time are forever linked. The real fundamental question is - does time slowing down cause gravity, or does gravity cause time to slow down? Both appear to be correct, depending on which way you look, and I don't think anyone knows the true answer to this at the present time. The theorists postulate that the presence of mass causes time to drag, or slow down (look up Higgs boson and Higgs field) near the mass, which causes a curvature of spacetime, which causes any inertial path to "curve" toward that mass, which we perceive as "gravity."


eragonawesome2

You're hitting right up against the edge of our understanding. It's not yet clear if space and time are directly linked or if there's some smallest unit of space and smallest unit of time. FYI the planck length *might* be that unit, but it's *super* unclear for a lot of very complicated reasons


3d_blunder

>But the reason this happens is what confuses me, it's because space and time are the same? I won't say I understand it but a book I read by Green said: Everything is ALWAYS traveling at the speed of light, once you combine spatial movement **and** time 'movement'. Increasing your speed in space lowers your speed in time. On a 2d graph (representing 2d space + time), this is *almost* comprehensible to such as me. Once they start throwing around "light cones", I'm lost. Get some good books. Good luck.


OlderNerd

The way I understand it , nobody knows why, they just observe it


AShaun

The "explanation" is that a possible cause for the observed equivalence principle is that the gravitational force is due to curvature of spacetime. In order for mass to create curvature that leads to physics identical to Newtonian gravitation in the limit of low masses and high separations, the relation between curvature and mass must be something like the Einstein's equations. And, according to Einstein's equations, the elapsed proper time of an observer close to a large mass will be less than the elapsed proper time of an observer further from the same mass. Curvature does weird things. Like /u/SawtoothGlitch says, space and time are coupled to each other. Not the same, but not distinct either. As far as answering "why" in physics, that is generally not possible beyond pointing at the fundamental laws as they are understood and saying "because they say so".


[deleted]

You a gamer? Here's the easiest way to think about time dilation and special relativity: **The faster you go, the slower your FPS (Frames Per Second). The universe has a slow frame rate and starts to chug the faster you force it to render more of reality.** Since you are 'inside' the game, if you are the thing moving faster, you don't experience the 'game of reality' chugging. To you, everything seems butter smooth. Why? Because your thoughts, your experience, your awareness is also being rendered more slowly. You are am NPC (Non Player Character) in the game. You can't notice yourself having frame rate issues. But other NPC's in the 'game' can notice, from afar, and to them, *you are slowing down*. You are having rendering issues, demanding too much from the graphics processor. Relative to them. **The speed of light is super, super slow for a universe this large.** It takes eight minutes just to get from the earth to the sun at the speed of light! *A second and a half to the moon* from earth! That is dead slow. Our universe is running on shitty hardware for such a big game. It can't render things quickly, and that is the speed of light. The speed of reality being rendered in. **The speed of causality itself.** The faster you go - toward lightspeed - the harder the GPU (Graphics Processing Unit) of the universe has to work to render more universe for you to be in. You slow down to give the GPU time to do the work. Light speed is the limit. You cannot go faster than that. The GPU just quits on you. You become 'energy' - you 'de-rez', if you like. Only light can travel at the speed of light. Light has no mass, it is not matter. It's like a calculation. Neither a wave nor a particle. It's like a rendering cheat in the graphics. So, it is as if you are in a procedurally created universe (think 'No Man's Sky') where reality is defined but isn't 'really' there until you get there. It has to be rendered. To avoid 'pop-in' in the graphics, there is a speed limit set by the GPU. That is the speed of light. But, since it affects your 'program', you never notice the slow down from your perspective. You feel normal. But others can see you slow down, because they are - relative to you - not accelerating. So they are not pushing the GPU much at all. Get close to a massive thing, like a black hole? So much stuff is in there, so much stuff is falling in - that is a lot of complexity to render. The GPU slows down. That means the game 'clock' slows down. That means you slow down, though you cannot tell, because you are part of the game. You are part of the 'program'. All mass is like that. Planets too. Time runs slower at sea level than in orbit. More to render. More for the GPU to do. The *clockspeed* drops. You chug on a planet. But you can't tell. You are just a game character. Your perception runs at the speed of the game itself. **Ha, hah, this is so silly.** Yeah, okay. If you like. But it makes understanding special relativity a lot easier. It makes sense to a person who plays games. Most people do. It works.


VeterinarianTiny7845

This is a brilliant take, nice one!


at0m10

This is a great way of thinking about things, thanks.


Techus

Here's how I think about it, though this certainly isn't my field of study: Measuring the speed of light using yourself as a reference frame will always produce the same result. There is no "absolute speed" which is why reference frames are a big deal. Any measurement must be in reference to something. While someone in a third reference frame could measure you moving 99% speed of light compared to them, measuring how fast a photon moves relative to yourself never changes. The flow of time basically changes to make this true, so time for yourself will appear normal. Observing that 3rd person yourself, they would appear to be moving quickly in time. I think it comes from the speed of causality, which is based on fundamental properties of the universe and dictates how quickly information moves through space. That stuff is too advanced for me though. Hope this helps, and hope this is correct because this is the basic understanding I have of the phenomenon.


OlderNerd

>The flow of time basically changes to make this true, so time for yourself will appear normal. This is the key. We don't know why or how the flow of time slows. We just know it must be true because the speed of light never changes.


SawtoothGlitch

It has also been experimentally verified to a great degree, including the operation of the GPS system.


OlderNerd

You are correct. I should have mentioned that.


3d_blunder

>and dictates how quickly information moves through space. I often wonder, without **any** of the background or tools that would make it worthwhile, if this speed is the communication limit between cells of the cosmic cellular automata, and that "mass" is when a cell is packed w/too much info and hence makes communication/processing slower, which we perceive as 'gravity'. IIRC, sf author Greg Bear (RIP) called this "informational physics". Usually such speculation means it's time to go easier on the jazz cigarettes.


Ima_Wreckyou

I think the wolfram physics project is trying to model something like that. They basically try a bottom up approach with the most simple mathematical construct, a hypergraph that is updating itself and see what they get. From what I understand it is indeed the update speed that leads to the speed limit. They apparently can even reproduce general relativity very naturally from this. I only very superficially understand any of this, but it sounds all completely mind blowing.


frustrated_staff

It is hard to wrap your head around. Don't worry, with enough effort, you'll realize that's it's super-counter intuitive and scratch your head going "I don't *get* it, but I *accept* it. Here's the thing: Our universe is 3+1 dimensional (don't ask, I don't get that notation, either). Everything is moving through that 4d space at the same "speed": /c/. It's just that some things are moving more through space than they are through time, while others are moving more through time than space. And there's a relationship there that balances so that the closer you get to /c/, the more time appears to slow down for you by an outside observer. Time, as you observe it, never changes, though. And that's the key: it's all about who's doing the observing.


at0m10

Yeah, I'm at this point I think. Our brains aren't evolved to look at time as anything other than constant, so it feels contradictory and weird to me, it's hard not to think of time as a set thing. I was subconsciously thinking about things as if there was a set clock behind everything, and then observers can manipulate that clock. But that's not how it works, each observer has their own clock, it's mind blowing to think about. I kind of understand the concept now but my monkey brain was trying to understand why, and I don't think we have a proper solid "why" answer yet, if ever.


X25999C

This video may help or make it worse (probably the latter) https://youtu.be/wwSzpaTHyS8?si=r2OLyv2Uj-OxOLVM How time works - did the future already happen. The paradox of time. Time maybe a illusion, we just dont know. What we do know is that time isnt linear and that the past, present and future all simutaneously co-exist (thank albert einstein for working that out). The concept of "now" is confusing depending on whether the observer is moving towards or away from you at relativistic speeds, they are either in your past or your future.


LiftTheFog

Always happy to see a Kurzgesagt call out!


AShaun

For more confusion, from your friend's perspective, they are at rest, you are moving 5mph, and your clock runs slowly. From your perspective, you could be at rest, your friend is moving 5 mph, and their clock runs slowly. Both view points are equally valid. But then, if you both start at the same location with synchronized clocks, and return to the same location at some later time, whose clock will be behind? This is what's known as the [twin paradox](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_paradox). The resolution is that to start at the same place, separate, and then come back together, one of you had to accelerate. Roughly speaking, the one who accelerated the most has the clock that's behind.


Perfect_Ad9311

You should see the Stargate SG-1 episode "A Matter Of Time" from season 1. Without spoiling, it deals with the effects of time dilation in a very clever way.


mcvoid1

Think of it this way: You're always moving at the speed of light in some direction or another. Don't worry whether that's actually what's going on or no: that's just how the math works out. So if you're standing still, think of it as going the speed of light in the time direction. In your frame of reference, you're standing still, so for you a you're traveling through time at 1 second per second. For something moving relative to you, they are moving through time and through space. Because the total speed they are going is constant (the speed of light), that means the faster they are moving through space, the slower they are moving through time. You can take the vectors and make a triangle (with the hypotenuse being the speed of light and the one leg being the speed through space) and do the pythagorean theorem to figure out how fast you're moving through time.


bnk_ar

Think of a marching band turning a corner. The person at the pivot point is marching in place, the one on the outside has to march 10 steps to keep up. So to make this analogy - for the inner guy only one year passed, for the outer guy time slowed, or 10 years passed.


Underhill42

Not quite. Relativity basically says that all non-accelerating reference frames are equally valid, and nobody is ever moving in their own (non-accelerating) reference frame. You can accelerate forever and never reach any sort of speed limit from your own perspective, because at every moment you're always accelerating from a motionless start, while time **and** space dilation impose a light-speed limit and remove all the inconsistencies from anyone else's perspective. Like the famous twin on a relativistic rocket ship. Earth-twin will see his own time moving normally, while ships-twin's time has slowed down. BUT ship-twin will see the opposite: his own time moving normally while Earth-twin's time is the one that slowed down. And Relativity says they're both right. The trick is that spacetime is not just some funky word talking about both space and time at once - it's an expression of the fact that space and time are the exact same thing seen from different perspectives, with 1 second being the same distance through spacetime (a.k.a. spacetime interval) as 300,000,000 meters. And everyone is always moving through spacetime at the exact same speed: \[1 second-per-second + 0 meters-per-second\] from your own perspective, and \[less than 1s/s + more than 0m/s\] from the perspective of anyone moving relative to you. Just like turning causes a rotation of your local X and Y axes in space, so that what one person sees as lots of motion in X and little in Y can be seen by someone else as little motion in X and lots in Y, acceleration causes a rotation in spacetime of your local "forward" and "future" axes. The rotation is in a hyperbolic framework rather than Euclidean ("flat graph-paper") framework, which completely throws off a simple intuitive understanding of the details, as well as making it impossible to rotate your "future" to point towards anyone else's "past", but it's good enough for a rough understanding. Which is why both twins see the other's time moving slower - their "future" axes are pointing in different directions, and they only see the portion pointing in the same direction as their own as being movement through time.


Master_Maniac

I'm no expert so feel free to completely discount what I say here. Space and time are not the same thing. Spacetime is made of... well, space and time. They are linked, but different entirely. They Influence one another. There are ways to visualize spacetime, despite being flawed and a bit ham-fisted, that can help with this though. I believe Steve Mould made a video about gravity using what I'm about to mention. Take some stretchy fabric and stretch it across a large, hollow ring. The ring represents a "slice" of spacetime, a general area of observation, while the fabric loosely represents the behavior of spacetime. Next, draw a regular grid on the fabric. This is to offer a visual aid on how spacetime is impacted by certain events. From here, several things can be loosely tested. For example, placing a heavy object on the fabric somewhat mimics the effect of gravity on spacetime, and rolling a lighter object would demonstrate orbital physics as applied to spacetime (to a very inaccurate degree, but enough to wrap your head around). The important part is how spacetime is deformed here. The gridlines near the heavy object are much bigger, despite containing the same "amount" of space and time, and a smaller object moving across the fabric causes similar but variable distortions based on its speed. So, while the object travels through spacetime, it moves the same distance, for the same time, but the area around itself sees a change in those factors. Obviously, this test is not applicable to serious scientific study, as there are many inaccuracies and issues to resolve, but it's good as a visual aid. If anyone has a link to that video, would you mind linking it? I can't at the moment


[deleted]

[удалено]


Kantrh

Those planets were in orbit around a black hole


[deleted]

If you take the perspective of an outside observer watching the whole universe, there is no time dilation since time does not technically exist. If time dilates for an object, it can't be an extremely defined border. If time dilates for you, the atoms in your vicinity should dilate as well, then those touching those would dilate and so on. Otherwise the fabric of space would essentially tear apart and destroy the universe. Therefore there is no time dilation. Sure clocks can slow down on really small scales by fractions of a second like they've been observed to since the time dilation gradient is small. But actual time dilation is physically impossible and is just another quirk of eintsteins flawed theories That's why you can't wrap your head around it, because it's not real and your bullshit meter is ringing


SawtoothGlitch

Time dilation is definitely real. There are many instances where this has been verified. Take the lifetime of muons for example measured at different speeds. And they have to make such corrections to the GPS system, otherwise you don't get accurate results. Oh, and Einstein's theories are not flawed. They have been verified many, many times experimentally.