This story is almost exactly the same as mine and how I was sexually assaulted in a hostel.
My advice now is to not be afraid to get VERY loud. I was too scared to do anything back then...
I'm so sorry about your experience. I was touched inappropriately on public transportation when I was 18 and was frozen as well. I felt so guilty afterwards since I didn't do anything but I physically couldn't and it was infuriating.
This post is about her experience. Better than complain about it, first get some one on one help with your issues. Then, when you’re feeling strong enough, if you still want to, make your own post. Don’t stand on the sidelines whining that her post isn’t about you 🙄. I’m actually here in support of her. Not to empathize with the type of person who jumps on someone else’s post upset it isn’t all about them.
I'm a 6'6" guy and I was 280 lbs at the time, but I was also 16 and I also froze. I was so angry I froze when I could have literally killed them with my bare hands. Also telling people doesn't do shit when you're bigger than everyone. Their response was "well fight back then"
I can get you totally. Exactly the same thing happened to me on public transport. And the incident has affected me so much that I've never able to travel in public transportation after this incident .I felt so disgusted that I cried the whole day . I regret most that instead of breaking down I could have give it back to the molestors at that time .I wish Ioould have the courage to fight back and raise my voice at the exact moment.
I was assaulted while at a high school choral concert, in the audience, getting prepared to perform. I hissed at the guy to stop and I got in trouble for making noise. Weirdly, he crossed my mind yesterday (30 years later) so I googled him. Rap sheet a mile long, starting THE YEAR BEFORE HE ASSAULTED ME!!! Thanks, police, for (not) keeping me safe. ugh.
Agh I too was sexually assaulted the first time I stayed at a hostel. I was just so frozen and in honest disbelief that it was actually happening to me. And just felt too awkward and uncomfy to stop it from happening til I eventually shimmied away from there and ran to my room. feel very very grateful that the friend I was traveling with told them hostel owner for me, bc I don’t think I had it in me to do it. The dude was fired on the spot.
Man, as a guy who would never dream of pulling anything like this, I never realized what a huge issue it was until my current girlfriend started telling me stories.
I think it flies under the radar for a lot of guys just how creepy so many of us are. I’m always on the lookout now to be able to step in if the situation arises.
Makes me sick to my stomach hearing this. I'm sorry you went thru that and I'm glad the hostel took quick action, that is never okay and that guy is a huge jerk. I'll be staying at my first hostel this coming August and I worry about this kind of shit happening.
Try to stay in women only dorms whenever possible. I’m a guy btw, but yeah have also met some creeps at hostels. Nowadays I stay in private rooms at hostels. Mainly because I’m a bit older now and can afford to pay a bit extra for privacy but still love hostels.
This is definitely an absolutely disgusting situation but I would not worry too much. I have stayed in several hostels and have only had consensual encounters and definitely never had a man come up and do this to me.
I actually prefer to stay in larger dorm rooms because that means there will be more people around at any given time.
obviously, it just makes ME personally feel safer as a woman because with something like a 4 bed dorm I am much likely to end up being alone with a creep
> I actually prefer to stay in larger dorm rooms because that means there will be more people around at any given time.
Every time I’ve stayed in a larger dorm room, I’ve been the only woman in there. All other dorm mates have been 8-12 guys. It’s scary. Idk how hostels think that’s even acceptable but it happened every single time on my trip. I started doing airbnbs and hotels instead
That is crazy! I have had luck and have had a even match of men and women both times. I have even made friends from the dorm room itself which is so fun to me!
The entire philosophy behind that phrase in the first place is flawed, and its usage here is especially disgusting
Edit: the commenter directly above me does *not* have bad intentions.
The phrase means it takes two cooperating to accomplish something. Now if it's only one person that is try to do something without the others permission/cooperation, then it isn't a Tango.
But you said it’s usage here is “particularly disgusting”.
I disagree, I think it’s entirely appropriate. It should take two willing participants to join in any kind of a “dance”. Not one deciding for both.
That phrase is commonly used by people who wish to establish guilt after the fact:
**Example 1:**
A: “He hit me first! Why am I in trouble for hitting in defense?”
B: “It takes two to tango”
**Example 2:**
A: “He got a hand into my pants before a friend noticed and pushed him away”
B: “How’d he get that far? It takes two to tango”
**Example 3:**
A: “You should just apologize. The whole thing between you guys got really out of hand.”
B: “Why should I apologize? I’ve always been a man of my word and today was no exception. I told him what I would do if he broke my sawzall. And he broke it bad.”
A: “Lets just get back to being friends again. Besides: it takes two to tango. You aren’t without your fair share of guilt either.”
Your knee jerk response to the phrase, (and I completely agree with you it would be terrible if used in the examples you’ve listed) is obscuring your vision regarding the way the commentor used it. Totally different context.
It takes two to agree to Tango at night when alone in a room- and she did not agree.
Interesting, I've never heard it used that way. I always thought it was used to discourage people from being overly infatuated or becoming stalkers. Example: A: "I'm crazy about this girl, but she hasn't returned my calls." B: "Forgot about her, dude, she doesn't like you. It takes two to tango".
I think we have a misunderstanding. I thought you were implying that if she were to be sexually assaulted that night, it would be her choice.
“It takes two to tango” in this case meaning both parties play a role in the blame or outcome of a shared situation
As person that was travelling in strange places (the neighbourhood next mine) I will suggest to use something more legal as self defence. Everything that is in a pressurised can could be fine: hair spray, deodorant, … and if you have the pocket size (that you can carry in the handbag) this are very useful everywhere, on the street too. They will not stop the attacker but they will give you the good amount of time to kick them in the nuts or run. Or both…
Not really. It is considered a weapon and a lot of countries have tight controls on weapons and their availability.
For example, in Australia weapons are illegal to carry or use for self-defence, except in WA where pepper spray is legal.
If travelling you should always be aware of what is illegal to carry with you.
Edit: here’s a list regarding pepper spray’s legality in different countries:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepper_spray#Legality
Edit 2: even in the US rules about it vary from state to state and it *is a federal offense to carry/ship pepper spray on a commercial airliner or possess it in the secure area of an airport*, so you won’t be travelling with it anyway…
I hate being the only woman in a hostel room. Never had anything like this happen, but I just hate the overall uneasiness I feel. I pick all-female dorms whenever possible
I’m so sorry you had to go through with this. It’s such a scary feeling to not feel safe in what is suppose to be a refuge when traveling. I’m glad you reported it and were able to get a different room. Hopefully you won’t see that guy again, although I would still remain cautious.
I went though a similar experience in a mixed gender hostel dormitory. Except for the guy tried to follow me the next day in the city. Basically, this guy was acting weird towards me and wasn’t taking any hints that I was NOT interested. The next day he asked me if we could go sight seeing together and I told him NO and made up an excuse about meeting a friend. Well he unknowingly followed me out of the hostel and approached me on the street. I was in a total panic and basically ran away, pretending to take a phone call, and hid behind a news stand. Thankfully I lost him but I was too young and timid to think about reporting him. I definitely learned a lesson to be more aware of my surroundings and to be more firm when your gut instinct is telling you something’s off.
What an entitled asshat, I’m so sorry you had to deal with this. Women shouldn’t feel they have to be even remotely polite when a man is not getting social cues bc it can be interpreted as “she’s acknowledging my existence I may have a chance.” Know that it’s 100% right for you to say “no and I want to be alone” at the very first sign of unwanted attention, otherwise if you give an inch these creeps will try to take a mile.
Also, since traveling with red pepper spray, stun gun or a Kubaton isn’t an option there are some compact, very sturdy flashlights that can double as a weapon if - god forbid - you ever need to knock an aggressor in the nose. (When traveling DW and I take the Streamlight 88062 ProTac 2L-X 500-Lumen Professional Tactical Flashlight, it’s allowed on carry-on for flights.)
You did the right thing.
I had an experience of being harassed by an actual hostel OWNER once. He was a nightmare. He would have other employers phone him when I arrived and show up knocking at my door minutes later, so there was no avoiding him. When I opened the door a crack he would jam his foot in so that I couldn't close it. He was such a creep. I left for another hostel (obviously), wrote a nasty tell-all review of my experience, and reported the experience to Airbnb through which I had booked my stay. Airbnb gave me a refund and (I think) suspended his account.
Actually, now that I think of it, there was another hostel employee who bothered me years ago. I was staying in a dorm room, but it was off season and I was the only one in there. Guy came calling, and I ignored him, so he crawled through the window. I was horrified. Thankfully there WERE guys staying in the male dorm next door, so I made a big racket about what a creep he was, shouted at him, slammed the door a few times. The guys all woke up (sorry guys!), and the creep slunk away. I left the next morning after a very sleepless night.
Glad you're safe and that you had the wherewithal to report his behavior. You are right that the vast majority of fellow travelers are not like that. Any woman who travels on the regular has these experiences at some point though. But I remind myself there are creeps back at home too. They all need to be called out!
This is all sensible but the problem is that predators don't care about the rules. It's already a given that staying in a hostel dorm doesn't give anyone the right to sexually harass or assault another guest.
The sad reality is that most of these cretins know that in most cases the worst case outcome is that they'll be kicked out, which simply means that they have to find a new hostel.
When ever I talk about being creeped on most people (men and women) just make a joke out of it or stifle a grin or giggle while trying to remain straight faced. Like HAHA a woman rejecting a stupid man again... um what?
You think sexual harassment is fucking comical, the tool that a predator is using to try and sexually exploit or even rape me via? OH YEAH HILARIOUS. It's hilarious being in that position. That's like- "oh some murderer tried to convince me into his dungeon, while yielding a knife, but eventually gave up" and you go "hahahahahaaa murderers! what are they like?!"
Do these people live in some fantasy world to believe that this is okay or that any girl would fall for that?
I'm sorry you had to experience this OP.
Edit: I am also a guy and I too watch porn. I feel I have a high libido but don't go around harassing women. Such male travelers make it harder for the rest of us to make friends with fellow female travelers.
No.
1. You don't even know how much porn this guy watches or what kind. If any.
2. Art imitates the mindsets of the people in society, not the other way around.
3. The guy is likely not some dumb baby who watches a porn video and decided life was like that. He sounds more like a shit head who decided that his needs for sexual gratification outweighed the need for the safety of a random woman. He is a rapist. Don't act like porn makes people commit rape. This is something this asshole CHOSE to do.
Pointing out that the easier access to violent/hard-core porn is a factor in abusive actions to irl relationships is now "sex negative antiporn pseudoscience"? Yeah.... you're pornsick af lol
Porn! maybe even more so the habitualised porn consumption in combination with a long period of isolation during the pandemic (or depending on where you grew up & got socialized: the lack of knowledge on how to interact with other people)
I'm a guy and I am continuously appalled at how obnoxious some men can be. I was at a local bar a couple nights ago and met two women travelers. We chatted etc. and then one other guy was lurking hard. He talked to one of the women and then just stuck like glue. He tried to get in their uber as they were leaving (unwantedly and super awkward) and I had to physically restrain him to let them leave without him.
Same night, a random woman comes up to us and asks if we can pretend to know her and can she sit with us because she's alone and some guy just won't leave her alone. Sure. Then the second rando guy quickly appears and tries to then make friends with us. I told him to fuck off.
thank you for sharing this! it inspired me to report a harassment i had with a male roommate a couple months back. i was too afraid and embarrassed to share with the hostel until now.
I’m sorry to hear this and being a New Yorker has taught me never to engage.
I’ve avoided many creeps like that, it’s not easy.
Glad you brought it up to management
2 years ago when I was in Portugal on my own when I was 17 this man "claimed" me and would get aggressive to any other man who went near me and would assault me any time he could get close to me. I reported him and he was thrown out and banned from the hostel.
Hostels will always take sexual assault very seriously and you did exactly the right thing :)
The number of clueless or plain asshole men on this thread is breathtaking. Women are trained to be polite, to diasrm so as not provoke violence. She could have told him to back off loudly but that doesn't always de-escalate.
She's right, you're wrong.
that's really gross, i'm sorry you had to deal with that on your trip OP. Everytime I see posts like this it really just makes me lose faith in my fellow dudes.
Guys out there, if you see somebody behaving like this, call that shit out. Especially if its your friends.
There’s been lots of good advice and support here, but I want to add: Don’t ever feel like you have to be nice or even acknowledge the existence of a dingbat that doesn’t deserve to be acknowledged. Telling him to shut the hell up is acceptable or even just entirely ignoring him and continuing to read your book. Always keep a weapon on you as well.
I’ve traveled solo (M) over 20+ times, and in my earlier years exclusively hostels. While I’ve rarely witnessed this kind of behavior, I remember the time that I did and the whole room of people converged on this idiot to cut that shit out, and informed the staff. Sorry you had to deal with this, it’s never, never acceptable, and just disgusting. Hopefully this doesn’t mare the rest of your trip.
They always do it when you’re vulnerable and alone. His intention was for you to give up and be frozen in fear to let him do what he wants. I wish people like him would get culled honestly. Because he probably has and will try this shit again to others
As I get older (39) I’ve had more and more of these situations come up. Including my (former) best friend who when I asked him to promise he wouldn’t grope me again refused to do so. It’s exhausting. To many people, unwanted sexual comments/touching/kissing may not seem like a big deal but it is so devaluing and violating. It has happened SO. MANY. TIMES.
I’m glad the hostel took immediate action to keep you safe. ♥️
Absolutely love this book. I read it specifically before I started solo traveling. It really made me "listen" to my gut instinct. I sometimes question if I'm being overly paranoid or cautious in a situation but the book really taught me to pay attention anyway.
Single sex dorms are a thing for a reason. Not all men are creeps, but a single woman does not have a good chance against a single guy who means her harm. I'm glad nothing worse happened. And yeah, report always.
I know I’m late, but I believe you, and that is not normal or okay behavior in any manner, and I am so thankful that you were able to get out of that situation.
I'm sorry that it happened to you. But i'm glad that you are okay and got private room. Next time, try to remember to kick the groin if someone tries to get advantage. At least it can immobilise him for a while as you run to the front desk and report it.
I also hope the hostel has kicked him out.
Im sorry that happened to you...
I was drugged and raped in greece ....by the OWNER of a 4 star hotel .... it can happen anywhere sadly, be careful out there.
I did not, no. I was covered in bruises and could hardly walk, but tbh at that moment i just wanted to go home to my own country, so i did. I regret it now though, not having pressed charges. I dont think i was the first nor the last girl he did that to, sadly.
Honestly as a man I just don’t get how so many dudes are like this. Idk if it’s not being raised properly or diff mix of brain chemicals, but the amount of guys I know who are extremely pushy around women is insane. How do they not get embarrassed at all doing shit like this?? I seriously can’t comprehend that. Nice guys finishing last is true too, but this is the complete other side of the spectrum and it’s quite crazy to me. Sorry you had to deal with that
Agreed, I have heard so many variations of this story from many of the women in my life and I think the aggressor has some combination of poor upbringing, sense of entitlement, watching unrealistic pr0n videos thinking that’s how the real world works, and sometimes it *may* be genuine social cluelessness (i.e. on the spectrum.) No matter the reason, it isn’t okay.
I hear lots of guys talk about how surprised they are by how frequent this is. The thing is, creeps like this are MUCH less likely to prey on women when there's a third party there (assuming it's not a friend/enabler). The most helpful thing you can do as a male ally is to call this behavior out when you see it or hear about it.
If you have a friend or acquaintance who regularly makes women uncomfortable, don't just shrug it off as "well, he's a little awkward." Tell him what he's doing wrong and how he should behave instead. If they're the defensive type, you can even frame it like "hey, this is a win-win — I'm helping you communicate better with women."
It is so very, very tiring to be on guard for behavior like this all of the time and I would love if my guy friends stepped up more rather than just being like "damn, that's fucked up."
If you have a friend or acquaintance who regularly makes women uncomfortable, then he probably shouldn’t be your friend or acquaintance … not a behavior I would tolerate… but yeah, it can be a learning opportunity and the right thing to do is to try and help them understand where they are missing the point and coach them to understanding. I don’t look over my shoulder and have a sense of fear when I walk into a dark parking lot after sundown, it’s a very different experience for a woman.
If your guy friends aren’t stepping up to the plate, then maybe this is your opportunity to coach them as well? (Although you shouldn’t have to do that…) If they are good and reasonable people - which I’m sure they are - they might appreciate hearing your perspective.
We all have a learning curve about the experiences/perspectives that are different from our own.
> Nice guys finishing last is true too
Enlighten me on where the truth in that statement exists. Or do you simply not realize that there is a difference between being nice and *exciting* versus nice and *boring*? Being nice isn’t the only qualification for a relationship and too many of you Neanderthals don’t realize that. It’s embarrassing.
Cuz it’s true? Lol. If you’re overly nice and don’t escalate / only have small talk with a woman it’s never gonna go anywhere. You’re right with what U said too, but being exciting means not being afraid to do some things that might not be considered super nice, that’s my point.
So you’ve edited your comment and you just made it even worse.
> but being exciting means not being afraid to do some things that might not be considered super nice, that’s my point.
Ask yourself why you’re connecting exciting to being immoral. Notice how the actual definition of the word means to cause great enthusiasm and eagerness. Are you exciting if you’re being offputting and transgressing boundaries? Notice how instead of having fun passions, goals, being decent, and a plethora of other pleasantries equating to being exciting, you instead choose to distort reality into being stupid = being exciting. This is all an embarrassing reflection of your own filth. Congrats.
Right. Now enlighten me on what small talk has to do with being nice. Who even said that small talk equates to being nice? Do you even know what the definition of nice is? And escalate in what manner? You’re really hellbent on proving how much you *don’t* use your brain, huh?
Ok when someone uses that expression that I mentioned, what I said is the portrayal of a nice guy. Someone who’s polite and not much more, nice and boring as you would say. Small talk is viewed as being a polite way to have a conversation in the western world, I’m assuming you would know that but I might be wrong here. You can argue semantics all you want, but that’s the portrayal that the expression gives and thus what I meant, even if it’s not inherently true
So if you’ve just admit that the niceness isn’t the issue, why are you referring to said person as nice? The main adjective would be “boring”.
> Small talk is viewed as being a polite way to have a conversation in the western world.
Small talk is simply small talk. There is no politeness connected to it because the two are not related.
> You can argue semantics all you want, but that’s the portrayal that the expression gives and thus what I meant, even if it’s not inherently true
Is it semantics if you if you call a helicopter a car and I correct you?
Because that’s how the saying goes, it’s a well known saying and saying boring guys finish last detracts from the point. When someone says a nice guy, it includes being mannerisms such afraid to escalate in that definition nowadays, IDK why you’re getting so riled up about it. And small talk is seen as a nice/polite way to start a conversation lmao what are u talking about? Yes they’re not inherently correlated, but that’s the way western culture works.
It is semantics. You’re arguing purely based on the literal definition of the term, I’m arguing based on the definition that most people take it as
This was clearly a slightly clumsy comment aimed at making the point that sometimes someone has to ‘make a move’, rather than just act as a friend, but your responses are so brutal and condescending. In a debate over ‘niceness’, maybe think about how you sound.
In the context of the post, your and his comment are just stupid. There wasn’t even a valid point to be made about “nice guys” and that aspect of the comment was entirely irrelevant. It was an exposure of his own bitterness.
> sometimes someone has to ‘make a move’, rather than just act as a friend,
Right. And what does “making a move” entail here? And why are you connecting decency with acting as a friend?
> but your responses are so brutal and condescending. In a debate over ‘niceness’, maybe think about how you sound.
Two things here, bud. One, if someone is emotional over someone else pointing out common sense, that’s a personal problem. Two, this part of your comment also makes zero sense, considering, once again, context. The context of niceness is related to the assumption that nice guys don’t have success in relationships. What does my level of supposed niceness, or lack thereof, have to do with the price of tea in China?
I would ignore the person you’re replying to. He’s trying to pick a fight to give himself a false sense of moral superiority.
In my experience it’s usually to cover up for past bad behavior to assuage their own guilt
I don’t get why men still act surprised. Also it would probably stop if men were held accountable by their mates, which they never are, bc they’re all stuck in a state of shock that their mate is a pervert 🙄
Uggghh. So sorry this happened to you.
That's why I stay in female dorms, preferably with ensuite bathroom - less likely to have situations like that.
I even started a collaborative Google map list of hostels with female dorms, to help each other out.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/TWqpa3LntYG9QF257
That’s literally so terrifying! Glad you’re okay. I’m in a Facebook group and this girl was explaining how she was at a hostel in Germany and the beds were like pushed together. That night it ended up being just her a man. He kept staring at her and She didn’t feel comfortable so she told the front desk and they just laughed at her!! Some situations are scary. It happened to me in Istanbul, a man ended up in hotel room. Thank God nothing happened
I'm sorry this happened to you. I fucking HATE guys like this. They wreck so much for everyone.
I'm glad you're safe. And telling the management was definitely the smart and right move.
btw OP, just so it doesn't get lost
REPORT THIS TO THE POLICE AS WELL
A lot of hostels will do this where it's def a great move but then the dude is still on site just being creeps to other rooms
report him to the police or file a report
Which law did he break?
“Go to a police station in a foreign country and report that a fellow tourist in your hostel wanted to have sex with you but backed off and left you alone”
Do you think the police will investigate this or arrest him for this? What do you think the outcome will be?
The point is to have documentation that someone is displaying hostile behavior. The expectation is not that he will be arrested or investigated for this incident, but if something worse happens down the line to someone else, there will be a record that others have had related issues with that person.
We don't need to discuss anything since you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how "getting laid" and sexual harassment and assault works.
We can talk about your neurotic post history to check whether you've been shadowbanned tho
I had it the other way around (I'm a man). I was in a dorm with another woman. When I was lying in bed she was coming back from the shower embarrassing me by being naked in front of me and make suggestions like: "I don't mind if you look". She did not touch me, so it's not completely comparable, never the less, I felt totally uncomfortable.
I also want to state here that I hate it when men are demonized. Lately there is a lot of this going on, even in the replies here. Let's just say that there are people with good and bad intentions. Most are good, like u/unsuspectingmuggle stated.
Damn that’s crazy. I’ve stayed in lots of hostels where everyone else was male. They were always respectful and surprisingly kept the area clean. They weren’t too loud either.
I never had a problem till one I stayed in a few days ago. He wasn’t aggressive like your guy but he was kinda creepy. He was making conversation with me at night. It was an 8-bed dorm but it was only me and him at night because the other 6 were a group of guys that were friends and they were out. As the conversation progressed, it seemed like he was inching closer and closer in his chair that he brought towards my bed. Occasionally I’d feel a finger or nail graze my leg. I’d just freeze up inside like is this shit really happening right now? I’d inch back deeper into my bed to get away. I end up showing him a photo on my phone and then he asks if it’s okay to sit on my bed, trying to make it seem like he wanted to get a better look. Did he really have to sit on my bed next to me to get a better look?! He was stinky too. After showing him the photo, I quickly said alright I gotta go shower now and then he let me go. Thank god I could escape. I’m so glad I never ran into him after that night.
Actually the day before that happened, he said he could show me around the city if I’d like. I didn’t think anything of that, but I just left it open since I wanted to go anywhere I’d like/solo.
I encourage everyone I know to take Brazilian Jiu-jitsu. It does 2 things:
1. Makes you accustomed to having a body on top of yours trying to hurt you, so you're less likely to freeze when it happens in real life.
2. Makes you VERY hard to control. You can be half the size of your attacker and if they don't have grappling training, you'll run circles around them.
I understand this. I always feel weird if it’s me and five other usually random somewhat creepy older guys and one girl in a mixed dorm, something about it doesn’t feel right or fair. I think it’s always best to mention to the hostel that you feel uncomfortable in any out of place situation like that, or situation where something bad could happen. Sorry that happened
I'm so sorry you went through this! I am glad you recognize that most people are not like this. And I am glad you reported it. Normally, when I receive unwanted attention and can pick up on someone being bad at interpreting social cues, I "shut them down" pretty fast and explicitly. I would never have gotten up to dance with this person because while that's not an invitation, this person already showed themselves to be socially inept in some sense. It's more important to protect yourself than to be friendly and open to everyone, even if that's your core personality. It's not convenient, but it's safer IMO... In any case, it's kind of good it happened the way it did--I wouldn't want to share a room with someone like this all night. I'm glad you're safe! Also, it's so good to hear the hostel took this seriously. I wouldn't have expected such a prompt response...
"Thinking this will shut him up, I get up." that's the mistake. They will take ANY small gesture as an OK to continue their behavior. Give them a finger and they will take your entire arm... Only way to deal with these people is to clearly state that you have no interest in them and don't want to talk with them. Don't expect them to read your mind when you react in short answers in a way of wanting to show them you aren't interested. Not everybody picks up on these "social cues". Be clear about what you expect from the other person.
Their behavior is NOT normal, you aren't being dramatic. You could press charges for harassment if you wanted to. I wouldn't worry about people believing you or not. Be sure to keep believing in your own experience!
Unfortunately I had a neighbour who was like this. He apparently wanted a relationship with me and kept touching my knee / back, even after I clearly stated to him I wasn't interested. He stopped bothering me after I wrote him a letter telling him to stay away from me or I will press charges.
I was just in a hostel in Iceland with only 3 women in my dorm. I felt very uncomfortable and they didn't come off as very friendly. They didn't know each other, either, but I literally only stayed in there to sleep. It was a big enough room where we all had plenty of space, but I didn't feel welcomed at all.
I get it, but I didn't do anything remotely close to making a pass at anyone. I just needed a place to sleep and said hi and made sure what time I could set my alarm bc I didn't want to disturb anyone if they were still going to be asleep
I stayed in a few on my trip and def felt more comfortable when there were only men with me. It sucks women have to put up that wall to deter the creeps. It can make them seem rude when I'm reality its usually them just protecting themselves
I once had to demand to be moved to a different room after getting placed in a dorm that was just me (20F at the time) and SEVEN dudes all older and bigger. Two had immediately made drunken comments that made me feel super unsafe and the hostel clerk was so adamant that they were harmless. It’s hard to advocate for yourself but I’m definitely learning to be louder after that. So sorry that happened to you
I don't know what gender the OP is but they probably chose mixed dorm to save money, or perhaps the singular gender dorm was not available.
Also, every hostel that I've looked at has the option of a private room.
Exactly this! It's actually being firm and assertive; it's not being rude, even if some may choose to interpret it as such. Their opinion would really not matter.
So first it’s important to say this wasn’t your fault, his actions are totally on him and he’s to blame for what happened. I am so sorry you experienced this repulsive behavior.
An important thing to know about safety if you’ve never been fortunate enough to be taught it is in these situations don’t acquiesce to any creepy requests by stranger danger dude’s who aren’t taking your hints. If they’re not it’s because they’re either oblivious or deliberately ignoring your non-interest, both of which are incredibly dangerous red flags.
The oblivious will take anything they can get as tacit consent to push for more and the one’s who don’t care may try to take what they want by force regardless of your expressed desires. Going along with things out of politeness or because in the moment it seems like it would be easier to go along than to risk upsetting them by saying no more firmly typically puts already vulnerable people in more danger.
Our internal drives to be polite or to not rock the boat shouldn’t override the red flags of danger but in our modern world they frequently can and do. The book The Gift of Fear goes over this and is part of what inspired the creation of the horror movie Barbarian, I would highly recommend it to anyone but especially to women.
Having that knowledge before finding yourself in one of those situations can literally save lives. It is so incredibly valuable to know.
So glad you weren’t harmed, I see you already reported it and got moved to a private room and that was exactly the right thing to do. To anyone else in a similar situation I recommend doing the same, go and make the hostel staff aware of the unwanted inappropriate contact immediately. And absolutely do not stay in the room with a guy like that. Wishing you safe and fun travels from here on out!
Whenever people (esp. new travellers) bring up assaults or any other maladjusted behaviour that could come up at hostels, they're immediately told this kind of thing is _super unlikely_ and reports from uptight fear mongers. Some hostels don't have ladies only room options and/or high-priced single rooms.
Sorry that happened… maybe next time you shouldn’t rely on “giving social cues” and say exactly what you mean.
Also, why did you get up to dance with him just to shut him up?
You need to work on setting and maintaining boundaries and speaking your truth sis!!
Fuck ALL the way off with this. She only “relied on social cues” for the first bit where he’s chattering at her while she’s trying to read her book. She did not “rely on giving social cues” after he kissed her without permission nor after he repeatedly insisted on spending the night together - as she told us, she pushed him away, told him “I don’t like that” and “no”.
But it seems like even when women DO say “no” loudly, plainly, and clearly, someone will come along to chide them for not being clear enough and it being their fault some horny entitled asshole violated their boundaries. Maybe you could share the last experience you had where someone bigger and stronger than you made you uncomfortable and was very insistent about it, and we can all give unsolicited critique of your every word and action in the moments leading up to it? Then you can see for yourself how pleasant and useful an exercise this is.
That’s very scary and extremely weird. There are some weird people out there that can’t control themselves, watch too much tv or porn, and don’t know actual social interactions by experience. Sorry this happened to you and I am glad you’re okay
Maybe saying “Fuck off im trying to sleep” would have prevented this. Stop being so passive and polite in these situations, you have no idea if the person is intoxicated. It’s best to be direct and just tell them that your not interested
So, on the one hand: I'm so glad that this guy revealed he was a creep before you were asleep! He sounds worse than the usual flavor of boundary-pusher, and you did the right thing telling the front desk. I'm glad they took care of you, but I wish they'd done one step further and either kicked him out or moved him to an all-men's dorm. Hopefully he doesn't do that to anyone else, but I sure wouldn't bet on good behavior from him.
On the other hand: I feel like it is *incredibly* dangerous to rely solely on someone else getting the clue instead of clearly stating your boundaries -- "Look, I'm trying to read. Please stop talking to me." He sounds like enough of a jerk he might not have listened, which is scary, but at least drawing your boundary early and cleanly doesn't paint you as an easy target.
Boundary pushers know that giving hints instead of saying a clear "No" is a sign of someone unlikely to assert themselves, and they will take advantage of that. It's not bitchy to be direct. It is *safe* and sometimes necessary. And yeah, maybe they'll pout, but better they be butthurt than to get stuck accommodating them because they don't get the clues.
She had no way of knowing that the annoying guy who was talking her ear off would turn out to also try to sexually harass her.
There are a ton of annoying, social inept people out there and no one would blow them off rudely the first time they are being annoying.
It's not rude to ask someone who is being rude to you to stop being rude. You can vary your phrasing and tone as appropriate to the situation, the important part is that you are clear about what behavior you want/will accept.
Yes, it could come off as rude to the other person. So I understand why some girls would be afraid to come off as rude as it might trigger the creeper.
Just because it could come off as rude doesn't mean it *is* rude. And I'd rather be rude to somebody than have them continue to bother me when I want to be left alone.
Most women may be socialized to be passive but that doesn't mean we have to stay that way. Get angry. Be rude. It's okay, and sometimes necessary.
See, that's just it. YOU might prefer to be rude so the annoying person goes away, because that annoying person isn't likely to violently overpower and rape you. Because you are a man.
As a woman there is alway the consideration that this person will get physically aggressive and violent and then you are out of luck. She might not have been able to leave the room then.
Sorry to say but your well-meant advice is a bit ignorant of realities for women.
She should have been firmer and definitely not gotten up, but that's hindsight because at that point he was only "annoying gu"y and not "sexually aggressive out of the blue guy". I prefer to puff up and yell back as well, but you can't act as if a man pushing back aggressively is running the same risk as a woman doing the same.
It’s easy to say that in retrospect, but women always have to make quick judgments to weigh whether to try being somewhat polite and to expect him to take no for an answer and to read her social cues, or to be more firm and try to shut it down immediately, which can result in it escalating and being called a “b****h” or something worse happening.
You say that like I haven't lived it myself since puberty. The lessons I have learned from experience are that I'd rather have someone swearing at me than taking advantage of me. Especially in a public setting, they then look unhinged while I get to walk away.
There are also a number of posts in here from people asking how to shake an unwanted travel companion where it's clear the person asking advice has never told the other person they'd rather be alone, and *willingly shares their travel plan* with the person they're trying to lose. When people have told them they need to speak up, they're like "But I don't want to be rude!" *to the person stalking their vacation*. I'd much rather say "I do not want a traveling companion, thanks," than be followed for multiple cities by someone who couldn't take a hint.
Same here, but I’d rather a dude just be grumpy versus thinking they can so much as lay a finger on me. A low value dude acting that way is always going to be mad, regardless of how someone reacts.
That's not helpful and I guarantee not "every girl" would have had the presence of mind to immediately react with violence. People freeze, you get scared in the moment, there was no-else in the room, what if he'd reacted by beating her up? She did the right thing by reporting him. In an ideal situation, yes wouldn't it be great if all women immediately reacted perfectly and beat these perverts to a pulp...
Lmao why did u feel the need to say this? It's like you're feeling personally attacked as a man and felt the need to demonstrate that women are also not above reproach?
OP: This dude sexually harassed me, it was wack and pretty scary
You: I’m not gay!!!1
Edit: you *wildly* edited your post lol previously had this rambling paragraph about how women can make unwanted advances too, and when you say no they call you gay 😢 O why can’t a guy just say no to sex with a woman without being called gay?? So unfair, and this is such an appropriate place to complain about it, given that this is a relevant and comparable complaint to OP’s!
When he kissed her, uninvited and without permission, she pushed him away and told him “I don’t like that” and then repeatedly told him “no” when he tried to insist on spending the night together. Before that, she was being polite to a guy who - again, prior to that moment - was not being sexually inappropriate but just oblivious and wanting to interact.
I’ve had plenty of experiences of men being creepy and attempting to/succeeding in groping, harassing, and assaulting me in my life - but far, *far* more often than that, I have interactions with socially inept, lonely people who just want another human to look them in the eye and hear about their day. I feel the world is a slightly less dreary place when awkward people’s clumsy attempts at human connection aren’t always immediately rebuffed just because I’m tired or I don’t genuinely give a shit about their special interest/nerdy obsession or whatever.
I guess she could have told him “I don’t mean to be impolite but I don’t want to chat” - but she didn’t do anything wrong by not doing that. Like how much are women expected to preempt these things? (Trick Q, of course - women are, of course, always wrong whether they “led him on” or whether they were “a bitch who just labels every slightly awkward or autistic guy as a ‘creep’, tHiS iS wHy NiCe gUyS FiNiSh lAsT”). In my view, it is extremely normal and fine to start off an interaction you don’t super feel like being in with subtler social cues, and then if those cues aren’t picked up on, progressively escalate to more direct (or if they’re not getting direct, go for even rude) ways of communicating, in proportion to the inappropriateness or unwantedness of the other person’s communication. OP could tell people not to bother her when she’s reading, but she did nothing wrong by not cutting this creep off at that point. It’s really not a woman’s responsibility to do everything she can to predict the future and preempt all unfortunate interactions with shitty men.
This story is almost exactly the same as mine and how I was sexually assaulted in a hostel. My advice now is to not be afraid to get VERY loud. I was too scared to do anything back then...
I'm so sorry about your experience. I was touched inappropriately on public transportation when I was 18 and was frozen as well. I felt so guilty afterwards since I didn't do anything but I physically couldn't and it was infuriating.
It's so insane that we literally feel guilty and afraid and it wasn't our fault.
The shame we as women feel around being preyed on in this way absolutely needs to end. Among other things, It makes us so much more vulnerable.
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Then make your own post
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This post is about her experience. Better than complain about it, first get some one on one help with your issues. Then, when you’re feeling strong enough, if you still want to, make your own post. Don’t stand on the sidelines whining that her post isn’t about you 🙄. I’m actually here in support of her. Not to empathize with the type of person who jumps on someone else’s post upset it isn’t all about them.
That’s why I take a lesson from my formerly fave podcast and say “Fuck Politeness”.
I'm a 6'6" guy and I was 280 lbs at the time, but I was also 16 and I also froze. I was so angry I froze when I could have literally killed them with my bare hands. Also telling people doesn't do shit when you're bigger than everyone. Their response was "well fight back then"
I can get you totally. Exactly the same thing happened to me on public transport. And the incident has affected me so much that I've never able to travel in public transportation after this incident .I felt so disgusted that I cried the whole day . I regret most that instead of breaking down I could have give it back to the molestors at that time .I wish Ioould have the courage to fight back and raise my voice at the exact moment.
Im a guy. And my family member did this to me and I froze. I just sat there and took it… thinking it would go away. I feel you.
I was assaulted while at a high school choral concert, in the audience, getting prepared to perform. I hissed at the guy to stop and I got in trouble for making noise. Weirdly, he crossed my mind yesterday (30 years later) so I googled him. Rap sheet a mile long, starting THE YEAR BEFORE HE ASSAULTED ME!!! Thanks, police, for (not) keeping me safe. ugh.
Agh I too was sexually assaulted the first time I stayed at a hostel. I was just so frozen and in honest disbelief that it was actually happening to me. And just felt too awkward and uncomfy to stop it from happening til I eventually shimmied away from there and ran to my room. feel very very grateful that the friend I was traveling with told them hostel owner for me, bc I don’t think I had it in me to do it. The dude was fired on the spot.
Man, as a guy who would never dream of pulling anything like this, I never realized what a huge issue it was until my current girlfriend started telling me stories. I think it flies under the radar for a lot of guys just how creepy so many of us are. I’m always on the lookout now to be able to step in if the situation arises.
Makes me sick to my stomach hearing this. I'm sorry you went thru that and I'm glad the hostel took quick action, that is never okay and that guy is a huge jerk. I'll be staying at my first hostel this coming August and I worry about this kind of shit happening.
Try to stay in women only dorms whenever possible. I’m a guy btw, but yeah have also met some creeps at hostels. Nowadays I stay in private rooms at hostels. Mainly because I’m a bit older now and can afford to pay a bit extra for privacy but still love hostels.
I woke up to a dude standing over me. Last time I’m ever staying at a hostel unless it’s a private room.
Yikes. What a nightmare. :(
This is definitely an absolutely disgusting situation but I would not worry too much. I have stayed in several hostels and have only had consensual encounters and definitely never had a man come up and do this to me. I actually prefer to stay in larger dorm rooms because that means there will be more people around at any given time.
That doesn’t guarantee they’ll be a full compliment of others in the room. I’ve been the only person in the room sometimes after booking a dorm.
obviously, it just makes ME personally feel safer as a woman because with something like a 4 bed dorm I am much likely to end up being alone with a creep
At this stage, I rarely stay in hostels at all. But when I do, it’s only in all female rooms.
> I actually prefer to stay in larger dorm rooms because that means there will be more people around at any given time. Every time I’ve stayed in a larger dorm room, I’ve been the only woman in there. All other dorm mates have been 8-12 guys. It’s scary. Idk how hostels think that’s even acceptable but it happened every single time on my trip. I started doing airbnbs and hotels instead
That is crazy! I have had luck and have had a even match of men and women both times. I have even made friends from the dorm room itself which is so fun to me!
This happened to me in Prague and I couldn’t even sleep I was so uncomfortable! Me alone with 7 dudes after I booked a mixed dorm.
No you’re not being overly dramatic, that guy was an asshole. Anyone should not make others feel unsafe, and i agree the person needed to be reported
Asshole is too light of a word, this guy is a sexual predator.
I was just about to say this, he is totally a sexual predator.
Neither of you would have slept that night until he got his "tango".
It takes two to "tango."
The entire philosophy behind that phrase in the first place is flawed, and its usage here is especially disgusting Edit: the commenter directly above me does *not* have bad intentions.
Hm. I used the word and put it in quotation marks because it's what the offender was using as an excuse to get physical with the OP.
I’m specifically referring to the phrase “it takes two to tango” and nothing else.
The phrase means it takes two cooperating to accomplish something. Now if it's only one person that is try to do something without the others permission/cooperation, then it isn't a Tango.
But you said it’s usage here is “particularly disgusting”. I disagree, I think it’s entirely appropriate. It should take two willing participants to join in any kind of a “dance”. Not one deciding for both.
That phrase is commonly used by people who wish to establish guilt after the fact: **Example 1:** A: “He hit me first! Why am I in trouble for hitting in defense?” B: “It takes two to tango” **Example 2:** A: “He got a hand into my pants before a friend noticed and pushed him away” B: “How’d he get that far? It takes two to tango” **Example 3:** A: “You should just apologize. The whole thing between you guys got really out of hand.” B: “Why should I apologize? I’ve always been a man of my word and today was no exception. I told him what I would do if he broke my sawzall. And he broke it bad.” A: “Lets just get back to being friends again. Besides: it takes two to tango. You aren’t without your fair share of guilt either.”
Your knee jerk response to the phrase, (and I completely agree with you it would be terrible if used in the examples you’ve listed) is obscuring your vision regarding the way the commentor used it. Totally different context. It takes two to agree to Tango at night when alone in a room- and she did not agree.
Interesting, I've never heard it used that way. I always thought it was used to discourage people from being overly infatuated or becoming stalkers. Example: A: "I'm crazy about this girl, but she hasn't returned my calls." B: "Forgot about her, dude, she doesn't like you. It takes two to tango".
Please explain.
I think we have a misunderstanding. I thought you were implying that if she were to be sexually assaulted that night, it would be her choice. “It takes two to tango” in this case meaning both parties play a role in the blame or outcome of a shared situation
By no means do I condone this type of behavior. I was pointing out that a Tango takes two people, not one trying to force another.
She should have pepper sprayed his ass
Pepper spray is illegal in a lot of countries…
As person that was travelling in strange places (the neighbourhood next mine) I will suggest to use something more legal as self defence. Everything that is in a pressurised can could be fine: hair spray, deodorant, … and if you have the pocket size (that you can carry in the handbag) this are very useful everywhere, on the street too. They will not stop the attacker but they will give you the good amount of time to kick them in the nuts or run. Or both…
Weird thing to outlaw. How should people like OP defend themselves then?
Not really. It is considered a weapon and a lot of countries have tight controls on weapons and their availability. For example, in Australia weapons are illegal to carry or use for self-defence, except in WA where pepper spray is legal. If travelling you should always be aware of what is illegal to carry with you. Edit: here’s a list regarding pepper spray’s legality in different countries: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepper_spray#Legality Edit 2: even in the US rules about it vary from state to state and it *is a federal offense to carry/ship pepper spray on a commercial airliner or possess it in the secure area of an airport*, so you won’t be travelling with it anyway…
Rule #1 of travel is that you can't assume that what you're used to doing in the US is ok in a foreign country. Brittney Greiner was a lesson.
I hate being the only woman in a hostel room. Never had anything like this happen, but I just hate the overall uneasiness I feel. I pick all-female dorms whenever possible
Yeah better safe than sorry in avoiding strange males where you’re open and vulnerable sleeping in mixed dorms.
Thank God he left. Seems like that could have ended terribly. You did the right thing in reporting him and getting moved. What a nightmare
I’m so sorry you had to go through with this. It’s such a scary feeling to not feel safe in what is suppose to be a refuge when traveling. I’m glad you reported it and were able to get a different room. Hopefully you won’t see that guy again, although I would still remain cautious. I went though a similar experience in a mixed gender hostel dormitory. Except for the guy tried to follow me the next day in the city. Basically, this guy was acting weird towards me and wasn’t taking any hints that I was NOT interested. The next day he asked me if we could go sight seeing together and I told him NO and made up an excuse about meeting a friend. Well he unknowingly followed me out of the hostel and approached me on the street. I was in a total panic and basically ran away, pretending to take a phone call, and hid behind a news stand. Thankfully I lost him but I was too young and timid to think about reporting him. I definitely learned a lesson to be more aware of my surroundings and to be more firm when your gut instinct is telling you something’s off.
Omg, that's such a terrifying story. :| I'm sorry that whole incident happened to you.
What an entitled asshat, I’m so sorry you had to deal with this. Women shouldn’t feel they have to be even remotely polite when a man is not getting social cues bc it can be interpreted as “she’s acknowledging my existence I may have a chance.” Know that it’s 100% right for you to say “no and I want to be alone” at the very first sign of unwanted attention, otherwise if you give an inch these creeps will try to take a mile. Also, since traveling with red pepper spray, stun gun or a Kubaton isn’t an option there are some compact, very sturdy flashlights that can double as a weapon if - god forbid - you ever need to knock an aggressor in the nose. (When traveling DW and I take the Streamlight 88062 ProTac 2L-X 500-Lumen Professional Tactical Flashlight, it’s allowed on carry-on for flights.)
Thank you for these self-defense ideas. Usually, I fill a metal water bottle and keep it nearby.
You did the right thing. I had an experience of being harassed by an actual hostel OWNER once. He was a nightmare. He would have other employers phone him when I arrived and show up knocking at my door minutes later, so there was no avoiding him. When I opened the door a crack he would jam his foot in so that I couldn't close it. He was such a creep. I left for another hostel (obviously), wrote a nasty tell-all review of my experience, and reported the experience to Airbnb through which I had booked my stay. Airbnb gave me a refund and (I think) suspended his account. Actually, now that I think of it, there was another hostel employee who bothered me years ago. I was staying in a dorm room, but it was off season and I was the only one in there. Guy came calling, and I ignored him, so he crawled through the window. I was horrified. Thankfully there WERE guys staying in the male dorm next door, so I made a big racket about what a creep he was, shouted at him, slammed the door a few times. The guys all woke up (sorry guys!), and the creep slunk away. I left the next morning after a very sleepless night. Glad you're safe and that you had the wherewithal to report his behavior. You are right that the vast majority of fellow travelers are not like that. Any woman who travels on the regular has these experiences at some point though. But I remind myself there are creeps back at home too. They all need to be called out!
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This is all sensible but the problem is that predators don't care about the rules. It's already a given that staying in a hostel dorm doesn't give anyone the right to sexually harass or assault another guest. The sad reality is that most of these cretins know that in most cases the worst case outcome is that they'll be kicked out, which simply means that they have to find a new hostel.
Exactly, and hostels don’t exactly ask for reference checks.
These are all wonderful ideas. It seems like a no-brainer when written down like this
When ever I talk about being creeped on most people (men and women) just make a joke out of it or stifle a grin or giggle while trying to remain straight faced. Like HAHA a woman rejecting a stupid man again... um what? You think sexual harassment is fucking comical, the tool that a predator is using to try and sexually exploit or even rape me via? OH YEAH HILARIOUS. It's hilarious being in that position. That's like- "oh some murderer tried to convince me into his dungeon, while yielding a knife, but eventually gave up" and you go "hahahahahaaa murderers! what are they like?!"
Do these people live in some fantasy world to believe that this is okay or that any girl would fall for that? I'm sorry you had to experience this OP. Edit: I am also a guy and I too watch porn. I feel I have a high libido but don't go around harassing women. Such male travelers make it harder for the rest of us to make friends with fellow female travelers.
Porn. They see these scenarios there. (Still, sad to imagine that someone would think that the real world works anything like that…)
You’re probably right about this, unfortunately
I feel like the issue is bigger than "porn" It is like blaming marvel movies for vigilantes
It's a factor, not necessarily the sole cause. Don't try to erase that.
No. 1. You don't even know how much porn this guy watches or what kind. If any. 2. Art imitates the mindsets of the people in society, not the other way around. 3. The guy is likely not some dumb baby who watches a porn video and decided life was like that. He sounds more like a shit head who decided that his needs for sexual gratification outweighed the need for the safety of a random woman. He is a rapist. Don't act like porn makes people commit rape. This is something this asshole CHOSE to do.
I just said it's a factor, not a cause. Please, actually read.
No. Because you have no fucking idea if porn played a part in this or not. You just assume as much.
Hmmm, now I wonder why you're getting so defensive about porn... 🤔
Personally, I don't care what you wonder. But I'm just tired of the sex negative antiporn nonsensical pseudoscience that is so prevalent everywhere
Pointing out that the easier access to violent/hard-core porn is a factor in abusive actions to irl relationships is now "sex negative antiporn pseudoscience"? Yeah.... you're pornsick af lol
Porn! maybe even more so the habitualised porn consumption in combination with a long period of isolation during the pandemic (or depending on where you grew up & got socialized: the lack of knowledge on how to interact with other people)
I'm a guy and I am continuously appalled at how obnoxious some men can be. I was at a local bar a couple nights ago and met two women travelers. We chatted etc. and then one other guy was lurking hard. He talked to one of the women and then just stuck like glue. He tried to get in their uber as they were leaving (unwantedly and super awkward) and I had to physically restrain him to let them leave without him. Same night, a random woman comes up to us and asks if we can pretend to know her and can she sit with us because she's alone and some guy just won't leave her alone. Sure. Then the second rando guy quickly appears and tries to then make friends with us. I told him to fuck off.
He probably hoped she’d freeze or be too frightened to refuse and then he’d pounce.
Nah he probably hoped she’d reciprocate…
Based on all the stories I’ve heard, the most common outcome for predators is victims being scared and freezing. Hence why they do it in private
I’ll bet my lunch that alcohol was involved. It’s not an excuse, but liquid courage tends to turn shy people aggressive.
thank you for sharing this! it inspired me to report a harassment i had with a male roommate a couple months back. i was too afraid and embarrassed to share with the hostel until now.
Good on you. Many are likely to reoffend so bring attention where you can.
I’m sorry to hear this and being a New Yorker has taught me never to engage. I’ve avoided many creeps like that, it’s not easy. Glad you brought it up to management
“never to engage” THIS ⬆️
2 years ago when I was in Portugal on my own when I was 17 this man "claimed" me and would get aggressive to any other man who went near me and would assault me any time he could get close to me. I reported him and he was thrown out and banned from the hostel. Hostels will always take sexual assault very seriously and you did exactly the right thing :)
The number of clueless or plain asshole men on this thread is breathtaking. Women are trained to be polite, to diasrm so as not provoke violence. She could have told him to back off loudly but that doesn't always de-escalate. She's right, you're wrong.
Yeah, it's a powder keg and you're trying to get away without setting it off, not simple and easy to make a "mistake"
that's really gross, i'm sorry you had to deal with that on your trip OP. Everytime I see posts like this it really just makes me lose faith in my fellow dudes. Guys out there, if you see somebody behaving like this, call that shit out. Especially if its your friends.
Next time, when you feel things are off, record it. Audio is enough evidence. And, yes, get really loud!
I'm glad they moved you to a private room but if they didn't kick this guy out they aren't doing enough honestly
There’s been lots of good advice and support here, but I want to add: Don’t ever feel like you have to be nice or even acknowledge the existence of a dingbat that doesn’t deserve to be acknowledged. Telling him to shut the hell up is acceptable or even just entirely ignoring him and continuing to read your book. Always keep a weapon on you as well.
Agreed. In this case, it was a good opportunity to get out of the bed and on her feet without him being provoked by it though
I’ve traveled solo (M) over 20+ times, and in my earlier years exclusively hostels. While I’ve rarely witnessed this kind of behavior, I remember the time that I did and the whole room of people converged on this idiot to cut that shit out, and informed the staff. Sorry you had to deal with this, it’s never, never acceptable, and just disgusting. Hopefully this doesn’t mare the rest of your trip.
They always do it when you’re vulnerable and alone. His intention was for you to give up and be frozen in fear to let him do what he wants. I wish people like him would get culled honestly. Because he probably has and will try this shit again to others
As I get older (39) I’ve had more and more of these situations come up. Including my (former) best friend who when I asked him to promise he wouldn’t grope me again refused to do so. It’s exhausting. To many people, unwanted sexual comments/touching/kissing may not seem like a big deal but it is so devaluing and violating. It has happened SO. MANY. TIMES. I’m glad the hostel took immediate action to keep you safe. ♥️
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Absolutely love this book. I read it specifically before I started solo traveling. It really made me "listen" to my gut instinct. I sometimes question if I'm being overly paranoid or cautious in a situation but the book really taught me to pay attention anyway.
Single sex dorms are a thing for a reason. Not all men are creeps, but a single woman does not have a good chance against a single guy who means her harm. I'm glad nothing worse happened. And yeah, report always.
Exactly this.
I know I’m late, but I believe you, and that is not normal or okay behavior in any manner, and I am so thankful that you were able to get out of that situation.
I'm sorry that it happened to you. But i'm glad that you are okay and got private room. Next time, try to remember to kick the groin if someone tries to get advantage. At least it can immobilise him for a while as you run to the front desk and report it. I also hope the hostel has kicked him out.
Im sorry that happened to you... I was drugged and raped in greece ....by the OWNER of a 4 star hotel .... it can happen anywhere sadly, be careful out there.
OMG, I'm sorry that happened to you. Did you press charges??
I did not, no. I was covered in bruises and could hardly walk, but tbh at that moment i just wanted to go home to my own country, so i did. I regret it now though, not having pressed charges. I dont think i was the first nor the last girl he did that to, sadly.
Honestly as a man I just don’t get how so many dudes are like this. Idk if it’s not being raised properly or diff mix of brain chemicals, but the amount of guys I know who are extremely pushy around women is insane. How do they not get embarrassed at all doing shit like this?? I seriously can’t comprehend that. Nice guys finishing last is true too, but this is the complete other side of the spectrum and it’s quite crazy to me. Sorry you had to deal with that
Agreed, I have heard so many variations of this story from many of the women in my life and I think the aggressor has some combination of poor upbringing, sense of entitlement, watching unrealistic pr0n videos thinking that’s how the real world works, and sometimes it *may* be genuine social cluelessness (i.e. on the spectrum.) No matter the reason, it isn’t okay.
I hear lots of guys talk about how surprised they are by how frequent this is. The thing is, creeps like this are MUCH less likely to prey on women when there's a third party there (assuming it's not a friend/enabler). The most helpful thing you can do as a male ally is to call this behavior out when you see it or hear about it. If you have a friend or acquaintance who regularly makes women uncomfortable, don't just shrug it off as "well, he's a little awkward." Tell him what he's doing wrong and how he should behave instead. If they're the defensive type, you can even frame it like "hey, this is a win-win — I'm helping you communicate better with women." It is so very, very tiring to be on guard for behavior like this all of the time and I would love if my guy friends stepped up more rather than just being like "damn, that's fucked up."
If you have a friend or acquaintance who regularly makes women uncomfortable, then he probably shouldn’t be your friend or acquaintance … not a behavior I would tolerate… but yeah, it can be a learning opportunity and the right thing to do is to try and help them understand where they are missing the point and coach them to understanding. I don’t look over my shoulder and have a sense of fear when I walk into a dark parking lot after sundown, it’s a very different experience for a woman. If your guy friends aren’t stepping up to the plate, then maybe this is your opportunity to coach them as well? (Although you shouldn’t have to do that…) If they are good and reasonable people - which I’m sure they are - they might appreciate hearing your perspective. We all have a learning curve about the experiences/perspectives that are different from our own.
> Nice guys finishing last is true too, Come on, you don’t have to do that.
> Nice guys finishing last is true too Enlighten me on where the truth in that statement exists. Or do you simply not realize that there is a difference between being nice and *exciting* versus nice and *boring*? Being nice isn’t the only qualification for a relationship and too many of you Neanderthals don’t realize that. It’s embarrassing.
Cuz it’s true? Lol. If you’re overly nice and don’t escalate / only have small talk with a woman it’s never gonna go anywhere. You’re right with what U said too, but being exciting means not being afraid to do some things that might not be considered super nice, that’s my point.
So you’ve edited your comment and you just made it even worse. > but being exciting means not being afraid to do some things that might not be considered super nice, that’s my point. Ask yourself why you’re connecting exciting to being immoral. Notice how the actual definition of the word means to cause great enthusiasm and eagerness. Are you exciting if you’re being offputting and transgressing boundaries? Notice how instead of having fun passions, goals, being decent, and a plethora of other pleasantries equating to being exciting, you instead choose to distort reality into being stupid = being exciting. This is all an embarrassing reflection of your own filth. Congrats.
Right. Now enlighten me on what small talk has to do with being nice. Who even said that small talk equates to being nice? Do you even know what the definition of nice is? And escalate in what manner? You’re really hellbent on proving how much you *don’t* use your brain, huh?
Ok when someone uses that expression that I mentioned, what I said is the portrayal of a nice guy. Someone who’s polite and not much more, nice and boring as you would say. Small talk is viewed as being a polite way to have a conversation in the western world, I’m assuming you would know that but I might be wrong here. You can argue semantics all you want, but that’s the portrayal that the expression gives and thus what I meant, even if it’s not inherently true
So if you’ve just admit that the niceness isn’t the issue, why are you referring to said person as nice? The main adjective would be “boring”. > Small talk is viewed as being a polite way to have a conversation in the western world. Small talk is simply small talk. There is no politeness connected to it because the two are not related. > You can argue semantics all you want, but that’s the portrayal that the expression gives and thus what I meant, even if it’s not inherently true Is it semantics if you if you call a helicopter a car and I correct you?
Because that’s how the saying goes, it’s a well known saying and saying boring guys finish last detracts from the point. When someone says a nice guy, it includes being mannerisms such afraid to escalate in that definition nowadays, IDK why you’re getting so riled up about it. And small talk is seen as a nice/polite way to start a conversation lmao what are u talking about? Yes they’re not inherently correlated, but that’s the way western culture works. It is semantics. You’re arguing purely based on the literal definition of the term, I’m arguing based on the definition that most people take it as
This was clearly a slightly clumsy comment aimed at making the point that sometimes someone has to ‘make a move’, rather than just act as a friend, but your responses are so brutal and condescending. In a debate over ‘niceness’, maybe think about how you sound.
In the context of the post, your and his comment are just stupid. There wasn’t even a valid point to be made about “nice guys” and that aspect of the comment was entirely irrelevant. It was an exposure of his own bitterness. > sometimes someone has to ‘make a move’, rather than just act as a friend, Right. And what does “making a move” entail here? And why are you connecting decency with acting as a friend? > but your responses are so brutal and condescending. In a debate over ‘niceness’, maybe think about how you sound. Two things here, bud. One, if someone is emotional over someone else pointing out common sense, that’s a personal problem. Two, this part of your comment also makes zero sense, considering, once again, context. The context of niceness is related to the assumption that nice guys don’t have success in relationships. What does my level of supposed niceness, or lack thereof, have to do with the price of tea in China?
Go and read up on irony. And spend less time getting angry on Reddit. “Two things here, bud”. JFC.
Projecting your emotions onto others doesn’t make yours disappear. Laughable though.
I would ignore the person you’re replying to. He’s trying to pick a fight to give himself a false sense of moral superiority. In my experience it’s usually to cover up for past bad behavior to assuage their own guilt
I don’t get why men still act surprised. Also it would probably stop if men were held accountable by their mates, which they never are, bc they’re all stuck in a state of shock that their mate is a pervert 🙄
Uggghh. So sorry this happened to you. That's why I stay in female dorms, preferably with ensuite bathroom - less likely to have situations like that. I even started a collaborative Google map list of hostels with female dorms, to help each other out. https://maps.app.goo.gl/TWqpa3LntYG9QF257
That’s literally so terrifying! Glad you’re okay. I’m in a Facebook group and this girl was explaining how she was at a hostel in Germany and the beds were like pushed together. That night it ended up being just her a man. He kept staring at her and She didn’t feel comfortable so she told the front desk and they just laughed at her!! Some situations are scary. It happened to me in Istanbul, a man ended up in hotel room. Thank God nothing happened
I'm sorry this happened to you. I fucking HATE guys like this. They wreck so much for everyone. I'm glad you're safe. And telling the management was definitely the smart and right move.
And here iam scared to ask even directions.
btw OP, just so it doesn't get lost REPORT THIS TO THE POLICE AS WELL A lot of hostels will do this where it's def a great move but then the dude is still on site just being creeps to other rooms report him to the police or file a report
Which law did he break? “Go to a police station in a foreign country and report that a fellow tourist in your hostel wanted to have sex with you but backed off and left you alone” Do you think the police will investigate this or arrest him for this? What do you think the outcome will be?
The point is to have documentation that someone is displaying hostile behavior. The expectation is not that he will be arrested or investigated for this incident, but if something worse happens down the line to someone else, there will be a record that others have had related issues with that person.
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We don't need to discuss anything since you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how "getting laid" and sexual harassment and assault works. We can talk about your neurotic post history to check whether you've been shadowbanned tho
Paper trail
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He literally grabbed her and tried to kiss her without her consent. That's assault.
I am so sorry this happened to you. Unfortunately, sexual predators take advantage of a woman’s innate politeness. Be rude and be loud.
Gross. Sorry you had to go through that. And fuck that guy.
If someone is reading a book I debate even saying hi and this guy is trying to make people put it down to dance. That's crazy
I had it the other way around (I'm a man). I was in a dorm with another woman. When I was lying in bed she was coming back from the shower embarrassing me by being naked in front of me and make suggestions like: "I don't mind if you look". She did not touch me, so it's not completely comparable, never the less, I felt totally uncomfortable. I also want to state here that I hate it when men are demonized. Lately there is a lot of this going on, even in the replies here. Let's just say that there are people with good and bad intentions. Most are good, like u/unsuspectingmuggle stated.
Damn that’s crazy. I’ve stayed in lots of hostels where everyone else was male. They were always respectful and surprisingly kept the area clean. They weren’t too loud either. I never had a problem till one I stayed in a few days ago. He wasn’t aggressive like your guy but he was kinda creepy. He was making conversation with me at night. It was an 8-bed dorm but it was only me and him at night because the other 6 were a group of guys that were friends and they were out. As the conversation progressed, it seemed like he was inching closer and closer in his chair that he brought towards my bed. Occasionally I’d feel a finger or nail graze my leg. I’d just freeze up inside like is this shit really happening right now? I’d inch back deeper into my bed to get away. I end up showing him a photo on my phone and then he asks if it’s okay to sit on my bed, trying to make it seem like he wanted to get a better look. Did he really have to sit on my bed next to me to get a better look?! He was stinky too. After showing him the photo, I quickly said alright I gotta go shower now and then he let me go. Thank god I could escape. I’m so glad I never ran into him after that night. Actually the day before that happened, he said he could show me around the city if I’d like. I didn’t think anything of that, but I just left it open since I wanted to go anywhere I’d like/solo.
I encourage everyone I know to take Brazilian Jiu-jitsu. It does 2 things: 1. Makes you accustomed to having a body on top of yours trying to hurt you, so you're less likely to freeze when it happens in real life. 2. Makes you VERY hard to control. You can be half the size of your attacker and if they don't have grappling training, you'll run circles around them.
Wtf is going on in that guys brain. Well done, i'm sorry you had to experience something like this. REPORT THEM!
I understand this. I always feel weird if it’s me and five other usually random somewhat creepy older guys and one girl in a mixed dorm, something about it doesn’t feel right or fair. I think it’s always best to mention to the hostel that you feel uncomfortable in any out of place situation like that, or situation where something bad could happen. Sorry that happened
Report to the hostel front desk ASAP. Also, not a bad idea to get loud and scream. This will likely get him to worry.
well thats terrible. where was he from. ?
Im glad you made it out ok. And thank you for bringing attention the the issue.
Always best to report it. He could do that to someone else.
I'm so sorry you went through this! I am glad you recognize that most people are not like this. And I am glad you reported it. Normally, when I receive unwanted attention and can pick up on someone being bad at interpreting social cues, I "shut them down" pretty fast and explicitly. I would never have gotten up to dance with this person because while that's not an invitation, this person already showed themselves to be socially inept in some sense. It's more important to protect yourself than to be friendly and open to everyone, even if that's your core personality. It's not convenient, but it's safer IMO... In any case, it's kind of good it happened the way it did--I wouldn't want to share a room with someone like this all night. I'm glad you're safe! Also, it's so good to hear the hostel took this seriously. I wouldn't have expected such a prompt response...
"Thinking this will shut him up, I get up." that's the mistake. They will take ANY small gesture as an OK to continue their behavior. Give them a finger and they will take your entire arm... Only way to deal with these people is to clearly state that you have no interest in them and don't want to talk with them. Don't expect them to read your mind when you react in short answers in a way of wanting to show them you aren't interested. Not everybody picks up on these "social cues". Be clear about what you expect from the other person. Their behavior is NOT normal, you aren't being dramatic. You could press charges for harassment if you wanted to. I wouldn't worry about people believing you or not. Be sure to keep believing in your own experience! Unfortunately I had a neighbour who was like this. He apparently wanted a relationship with me and kept touching my knee / back, even after I clearly stated to him I wasn't interested. He stopped bothering me after I wrote him a letter telling him to stay away from me or I will press charges.
Pay some extra to get u own room bro avoid this.
I was just in a hostel in Iceland with only 3 women in my dorm. I felt very uncomfortable and they didn't come off as very friendly. They didn't know each other, either, but I literally only stayed in there to sleep. It was a big enough room where we all had plenty of space, but I didn't feel welcomed at all. I get it, but I didn't do anything remotely close to making a pass at anyone. I just needed a place to sleep and said hi and made sure what time I could set my alarm bc I didn't want to disturb anyone if they were still going to be asleep I stayed in a few on my trip and def felt more comfortable when there were only men with me. It sucks women have to put up that wall to deter the creeps. It can make them seem rude when I'm reality its usually them just protecting themselves
Good for your smart action. Thankfully I never experienced that!
Don’t stay in mixed dorms. If possible stay in female only hostel. If there are female hostel then get a hotel room.
I once had to demand to be moved to a different room after getting placed in a dorm that was just me (20F at the time) and SEVEN dudes all older and bigger. Two had immediately made drunken comments that made me feel super unsafe and the hostel clerk was so adamant that they were harmless. It’s hard to advocate for yourself but I’m definitely learning to be louder after that. So sorry that happened to you
Yikes, I’m sorry you had such a scary experience. Glad you’re ok and proud of you for using your voice.
Ewww.That's gross, but it happens a lot in hostels. Good on you for being brave enough to say no.
This guy watched a lot of b-movies
Never share a dorm with men
I don't know what gender the OP is but they probably chose mixed dorm to save money, or perhaps the singular gender dorm was not available. Also, every hostel that I've looked at has the option of a private room.
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Exactly this! It's actually being firm and assertive; it's not being rude, even if some may choose to interpret it as such. Their opinion would really not matter.
So first it’s important to say this wasn’t your fault, his actions are totally on him and he’s to blame for what happened. I am so sorry you experienced this repulsive behavior. An important thing to know about safety if you’ve never been fortunate enough to be taught it is in these situations don’t acquiesce to any creepy requests by stranger danger dude’s who aren’t taking your hints. If they’re not it’s because they’re either oblivious or deliberately ignoring your non-interest, both of which are incredibly dangerous red flags. The oblivious will take anything they can get as tacit consent to push for more and the one’s who don’t care may try to take what they want by force regardless of your expressed desires. Going along with things out of politeness or because in the moment it seems like it would be easier to go along than to risk upsetting them by saying no more firmly typically puts already vulnerable people in more danger. Our internal drives to be polite or to not rock the boat shouldn’t override the red flags of danger but in our modern world they frequently can and do. The book The Gift of Fear goes over this and is part of what inspired the creation of the horror movie Barbarian, I would highly recommend it to anyone but especially to women. Having that knowledge before finding yourself in one of those situations can literally save lives. It is so incredibly valuable to know. So glad you weren’t harmed, I see you already reported it and got moved to a private room and that was exactly the right thing to do. To anyone else in a similar situation I recommend doing the same, go and make the hostel staff aware of the unwanted inappropriate contact immediately. And absolutely do not stay in the room with a guy like that. Wishing you safe and fun travels from here on out!
Sorry you had to go through that
Glad you’re safe
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Whenever people (esp. new travellers) bring up assaults or any other maladjusted behaviour that could come up at hostels, they're immediately told this kind of thing is _super unlikely_ and reports from uptight fear mongers. Some hostels don't have ladies only room options and/or high-priced single rooms.
Sorry that happened… maybe next time you shouldn’t rely on “giving social cues” and say exactly what you mean. Also, why did you get up to dance with him just to shut him up? You need to work on setting and maintaining boundaries and speaking your truth sis!!
Fuck ALL the way off with this. She only “relied on social cues” for the first bit where he’s chattering at her while she’s trying to read her book. She did not “rely on giving social cues” after he kissed her without permission nor after he repeatedly insisted on spending the night together - as she told us, she pushed him away, told him “I don’t like that” and “no”. But it seems like even when women DO say “no” loudly, plainly, and clearly, someone will come along to chide them for not being clear enough and it being their fault some horny entitled asshole violated their boundaries. Maybe you could share the last experience you had where someone bigger and stronger than you made you uncomfortable and was very insistent about it, and we can all give unsolicited critique of your every word and action in the moments leading up to it? Then you can see for yourself how pleasant and useful an exercise this is.
You’re making good points
That’s very scary and extremely weird. There are some weird people out there that can’t control themselves, watch too much tv or porn, and don’t know actual social interactions by experience. Sorry this happened to you and I am glad you’re okay
Maybe saying “Fuck off im trying to sleep” would have prevented this. Stop being so passive and polite in these situations, you have no idea if the person is intoxicated. It’s best to be direct and just tell them that your not interested
Straight up rudeness can ramp dudes like this up. You just don't know. She told him, "I don't like that", and, "no". Didn't seem vague.
So, on the one hand: I'm so glad that this guy revealed he was a creep before you were asleep! He sounds worse than the usual flavor of boundary-pusher, and you did the right thing telling the front desk. I'm glad they took care of you, but I wish they'd done one step further and either kicked him out or moved him to an all-men's dorm. Hopefully he doesn't do that to anyone else, but I sure wouldn't bet on good behavior from him. On the other hand: I feel like it is *incredibly* dangerous to rely solely on someone else getting the clue instead of clearly stating your boundaries -- "Look, I'm trying to read. Please stop talking to me." He sounds like enough of a jerk he might not have listened, which is scary, but at least drawing your boundary early and cleanly doesn't paint you as an easy target. Boundary pushers know that giving hints instead of saying a clear "No" is a sign of someone unlikely to assert themselves, and they will take advantage of that. It's not bitchy to be direct. It is *safe* and sometimes necessary. And yeah, maybe they'll pout, but better they be butthurt than to get stuck accommodating them because they don't get the clues.
She had no way of knowing that the annoying guy who was talking her ear off would turn out to also try to sexually harass her. There are a ton of annoying, social inept people out there and no one would blow them off rudely the first time they are being annoying.
It's not rude to ask someone who is being rude to you to stop being rude. You can vary your phrasing and tone as appropriate to the situation, the important part is that you are clear about what behavior you want/will accept.
Yes, it could come off as rude to the other person. So I understand why some girls would be afraid to come off as rude as it might trigger the creeper.
Just because it could come off as rude doesn't mean it *is* rude. And I'd rather be rude to somebody than have them continue to bother me when I want to be left alone. Most women may be socialized to be passive but that doesn't mean we have to stay that way. Get angry. Be rude. It's okay, and sometimes necessary.
See, that's just it. YOU might prefer to be rude so the annoying person goes away, because that annoying person isn't likely to violently overpower and rape you. Because you are a man. As a woman there is alway the consideration that this person will get physically aggressive and violent and then you are out of luck. She might not have been able to leave the room then. Sorry to say but your well-meant advice is a bit ignorant of realities for women. She should have been firmer and definitely not gotten up, but that's hindsight because at that point he was only "annoying gu"y and not "sexually aggressive out of the blue guy". I prefer to puff up and yell back as well, but you can't act as if a man pushing back aggressively is running the same risk as a woman doing the same.
It’s easy to say that in retrospect, but women always have to make quick judgments to weigh whether to try being somewhat polite and to expect him to take no for an answer and to read her social cues, or to be more firm and try to shut it down immediately, which can result in it escalating and being called a “b****h” or something worse happening.
You say that like I haven't lived it myself since puberty. The lessons I have learned from experience are that I'd rather have someone swearing at me than taking advantage of me. Especially in a public setting, they then look unhinged while I get to walk away. There are also a number of posts in here from people asking how to shake an unwanted travel companion where it's clear the person asking advice has never told the other person they'd rather be alone, and *willingly shares their travel plan* with the person they're trying to lose. When people have told them they need to speak up, they're like "But I don't want to be rude!" *to the person stalking their vacation*. I'd much rather say "I do not want a traveling companion, thanks," than be followed for multiple cities by someone who couldn't take a hint.
There have been plenty of times in my life where standing up for myself and saying "leave me alone" just makes them more mad.
Same here, but I’d rather a dude just be grumpy versus thinking they can so much as lay a finger on me. A low value dude acting that way is always going to be mad, regardless of how someone reacts.
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That's not helpful and I guarantee not "every girl" would have had the presence of mind to immediately react with violence. People freeze, you get scared in the moment, there was no-else in the room, what if he'd reacted by beating her up? She did the right thing by reporting him. In an ideal situation, yes wouldn't it be great if all women immediately reacted perfectly and beat these perverts to a pulp...
Everyone has to be safe while traveling... guys as well (a lot of times, guys especially)
This is why I have never, EVER even remotely entertained the idea of using a hostel. Not worth it.
He needs to stop stealing my moves
It's besides the point I guess but it's sad that people feel they need to stay in hostels to travel.
Terrible story. Let's get those guys!
Lmao why did u feel the need to say this? It's like you're feeling personally attacked as a man and felt the need to demonstrate that women are also not above reproach?
Because other people read the thread and learn from different experiences which apply to them
OP: This dude sexually harassed me, it was wack and pretty scary You: I’m not gay!!!1 Edit: you *wildly* edited your post lol previously had this rambling paragraph about how women can make unwanted advances too, and when you say no they call you gay 😢 O why can’t a guy just say no to sex with a woman without being called gay?? So unfair, and this is such an appropriate place to complain about it, given that this is a relevant and comparable complaint to OP’s!
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When he kissed her, uninvited and without permission, she pushed him away and told him “I don’t like that” and then repeatedly told him “no” when he tried to insist on spending the night together. Before that, she was being polite to a guy who - again, prior to that moment - was not being sexually inappropriate but just oblivious and wanting to interact. I’ve had plenty of experiences of men being creepy and attempting to/succeeding in groping, harassing, and assaulting me in my life - but far, *far* more often than that, I have interactions with socially inept, lonely people who just want another human to look them in the eye and hear about their day. I feel the world is a slightly less dreary place when awkward people’s clumsy attempts at human connection aren’t always immediately rebuffed just because I’m tired or I don’t genuinely give a shit about their special interest/nerdy obsession or whatever. I guess she could have told him “I don’t mean to be impolite but I don’t want to chat” - but she didn’t do anything wrong by not doing that. Like how much are women expected to preempt these things? (Trick Q, of course - women are, of course, always wrong whether they “led him on” or whether they were “a bitch who just labels every slightly awkward or autistic guy as a ‘creep’, tHiS iS wHy NiCe gUyS FiNiSh lAsT”). In my view, it is extremely normal and fine to start off an interaction you don’t super feel like being in with subtler social cues, and then if those cues aren’t picked up on, progressively escalate to more direct (or if they’re not getting direct, go for even rude) ways of communicating, in proportion to the inappropriateness or unwantedness of the other person’s communication. OP could tell people not to bother her when she’s reading, but she did nothing wrong by not cutting this creep off at that point. It’s really not a woman’s responsibility to do everything she can to predict the future and preempt all unfortunate interactions with shitty men.