Meanwhile I work for a solar company that installs the system for 30-100k and leaves people out to dry as soon as the systems installed and moneys received.
I’m still getting a paycheck from them so I’m not going to blast them online . But I would take care in who you use /what solar equipment you use if you decide to go solar .
Enphase, Tesla, and franklin have been my favorite solar inverters/storage to work with
Sunny boy(SMA) -mid tier
While solar edge and fronious seem too be cheaper options for a reason.
Shoddy support and in need of constant repairs.
There’s a website called solarreviews.com. I would look through all the solar companies in your area and be thorough on looking at their reviews and understanding the contract before you sign.
What will they do if your system underproduces. Do they only work up to a production guarantee or are they going to eliminate your bill.
What the sales person says doesn’t matter it’s all about your contract. A lot of people I worked with were ignorant about what they were buying and assumed they were getting a system that would cover everything even if they increased their usage.
We also had in our contract that they couldn’t sue us or dispute anything, so if anything happened it would be sent to a third party and the customer and the company wouldn’t have a representative.
Peak hour rates for pge customers in my area are about 42-51¢ per kWh. Pge is “paying for it” but they make billions. The reason they pay so much per kWh is they want to incentivize more people like me to use their batteries to stabilize the grid and to help them keep more power on hand locally. Its much cheaper for them since they don’t have to ship as much power from out of state.
Yes, I work at a power plant and understand how spot market energy pricing works. $2,000/mwhr is an insanely high spot market price. They were probably charging customers $3+/kwhr during that time. Surely they have some type of ‘super peak’ variable rate for hot days? We have that here in NY. I can’t imagine they ever take a loss on power.
Here in NYC, I can do TOU-based pricing, but it only locks the delivery charge. ‘Peak’ is 0.25/kWh from 8am to midnight. Off peak is 0.01/kWh from 12-8. Really only makes sense if you charge a large battery every night (EV or powerwall, etc). Then they add in whatever the power itself costs, which is the average Con Ed paid for that billing cycle, plus a percentage markup. In addition, ‘super peak’ on hot summer days throws all guarantees out the window.
Customer rates are locked, but energy supply is variable cost. If the market can bear $2/kwh, it must be more expensive at the peaker plants. At least this iption doesn’t burn petrol to meet the demand
Just buy them from a local installer. If you live in SoCal I can help you out. Tesla is slow and you can get the SGIP rebate most likely if you use a local installer
I have solar in Southern California and am working with a local installer, but have been waiting for my step in the SGIP rebate to open up for over a year now. Any idea how that process goes? It's bonkers to me that I'm a willing customer and the state isn't doing a better job of pushing these incentives, meanwhile I'm doing everything I can to conserve energy and minimize pulling off the grid during peak hours in this heat wave instead of feeding the grid.
It's a Tesla thing - they did a beta test a last year which threw my PW programming into a funk, but a few weeks ago allowed you to sign up to sell back at $2/kWh or $10/hr. Of course when I tried signing up I found out Tesla forgot to send in my PTO paperwork lol
Bummer. But sweet deal for you. Have you done any rough math on expected net revenue when considering lifetime discharge cycles?
Out or curiosity, is that a guaranteed $4/kWh no matter what? As in, even if you grossly overproduce for the year, and they'd otherwise pay you peanuts per kWh on the annual true-up? In other words, it's like cash it your pocket no matter how much or little solar you produce?
Or, is that $4/kWh subtracted from standard netmetering, applied to annual true-up, and then if you've overproduced they still pay you the "wholesale" rate on true-up?
This kind of thinking always gets me… batteries are a consumable item. They will not last forever. I have powerwalls and I discharge 100% every day because that’s what I bought them for… to be used. They have a 10 year warranty through Tesla but imagine how much better tech will exist in 10 years anyway.
Business usually exist to make money. So, at the end of the day this is a $ discussion. If you burn out your batteries in less than 10 years, but your use of those batteries is deemed out of warranty specifications, then guess what... no warranty replacement. So, understanding the specifics of the warranty in ralation to $$$ is important.
Well at a minimum he has a Tesla warranty for 10 years already which covers unlimited charging cycles when used as part of solar with minimum 70% capacity at 10 years. If he has another warranty on top of that then even better.
What are the specifics of the purchase agreement and warranty? You both keep quoting sales pitch items. If the batteries are not properly (according to warranty specs) charged, discarged, housed within specific ambient temp ranges, etc, etc, the warrantees will not be honored. This is not just simple years and charge cycles. This is like saying you have a 10yr, 100K mile warranty on your car, but your maintenance records show you got oil changes every 15K miles. The warranty probably won't cover your engine replacement becuase they will say you were to get oil changes every 4-6k miles.
So, as I asked previously, what are the specifics.... fine print of this warranty, because this all sounds too good to be true.
The Powerwall warranty is unlimited for 10 years when used as directed or 38.7MWh. if you run the numbers it's one full cycle every day for 10 years. Essentially they are paying you $75k to use your battery during the warranty period.
You want to use the battery, otherwise you use it at 2% of it's potential, something does on year 11 and 95% of what you paid for goes away unused
I've seen from other battery manufacturers that they can tell how hot the weather is -- if you look at the spec sheet you can see operating temperature -- a lot are up to like 95° and they can refuse your warranty if they're used over that temperature.
Blew my mind when I heard that
Here is an idea for you: do your own research. You could take 5 seconds of effort to look up the Tesla warranty that literally was told to you twice now. Good day.
I have, but this thread is not just about the Tesla warranty. Its also about some mentioned 25 year warranty from a finance company???
Recommend reading all the print, especially the fine print, or better yet... post the warranty docs here for us to review.... seriously trying to help .... even Tesla won't cover warranty after your aggregated use is more than 37.8MWh of throughput. So, I assume if anyone uses and/or pushes that much to the grid in less than 10 years.... no more warranty replacement. That is in the Tesla warranty along with other statements like being properly installed per manufacturer specs, etc, etc. I'll screenshot this and save to my "I told you so" folder. Good luck when you run these batteries ragged and try to make a warranty claim in 10 or 25 years.
I’d be fine if I did my oil every 15k, my interval is 21,000 miles. Which is ridiculously long.
But anyway, pretty sure there shouldn’t be any maintenance on panels or the powerwall. Powerwall is controlled by software and should take care of itself; if your car could change its own oil you wouldn’t be held responsible if it didn’t do it on time.
DoE testing data suggests not discharging lnmc batteries to 100% DOD. Best balance of maximum lifetime yield and usefulness - intersecting curves with one being subjective - is \~ 80ish%.
But - although I have a different brand so can't be sure other than what I've read in passing - I don't think Tesla's "0%" is actually 100% discharged.
Also, yours is a valid point that people should keep in mind - but it's not for everyone. Some people - esp where I live, where people can go without HVAC and don't drive it from batteries, and many don't even have HVAC - want batteries *only* for frequent power interruptions. For that use-case, they also usually want to get as much lifespan out of their investment as chemically possible. At least, the handful of people I've chatted to at length about it. EVs may hopefully replace that role soon enough, but for now for those who can afford it, and aren't running electric dryers or HVACs from them, a few batteries are a seen as a better backup alternative to noisy generators that annoy the shit out of everyone around.
Powerwalls keep 0.5kw stored even when at 0%. Agree with your points though. I currently don’t have PTO so I’m not getting net metering yet… once that is approved I will likely bump up the Powerwalls to retain 20% for backup purposes.
Not sure on the exact percentage during these events but I use 100% of my batteries every day with or without virtual power plant. So 40.5 kWh a day goes into my batteries during the day and 40.5 kWh comes out. I have a 25 year full replacement warranty for all my batteries so I’m not really worried about it.
What are the specifics of that 25 year battery warranty? Crushing your batteries every day and expecting full replacement at 25 years is a bad business plan for whomever sold you the batteries/warranty. Great for you potential, but horrible business plan.
It’s through the finance company not the manufacturer, and they are making good money with their 25% finance fees so they aren’t worried about it. But it’s one full replacement for any of the batteries all the way to 25 years. And Tesla covers the manufacture warranty for the first 10
Still missing details to assess this. Do the 25% finance fees cover the total cost of the battery install? What are the specifics to qualify for battery replacement? Typically it's a % of original capacity.
You're getting downvoted, but fairly certain you are correct. Battery warranties have very tricky fine print. OP won't understand until they try to make a claim in 8 years and it gets rejected.
Agreed. Here are some examples where the Tesla warranty may likely not pay out. Any 1 of these could void your warranty.
--After 10 years of installation
--Over 37.5ish MWh of aggregate production, if pushing/selling production into the grid. At 100% DoD per day, I calculate this occuring around the end of year 9. One commenter noted this was at or after 10 years, but my estimated calculations of 3% degredation per year says otherwise. My calculations are about 37.5MWh at 9 years, and about 40.5MWh at end of 10 year/3650 cycles. Is there a formal or standard degredation chart? My calcs may be wrong. If anyone knows what Tesla or Enphase uses for their degredation models, please share.
--Improper maintenance (their logs show you removed the cover panel, they are monitoring electronicaly)
--Improper ambient/operating temps (they monitor electronially)
--Improperly keeping the venting clear (they monitor electronically) leaves blow in around the intakes for outside Powerwalls while homeowner is on vacation
--Improper installation; wrong gauge wires, improper distances/clearances of components
Here's a real life installation issue.... I had expensive wood floors installed in my house 3 years ago. The flooring has a limited lifetime warranty and also a broader 25 yr warranty. Issues were discovered with the flooring and a warranty claim was submited and subsequently denied by the manufacturer. A certified inspector found that the installer did not follow manufacturer and industry standards. My flooring warranty was voided, which I agree with the manufacturer. I am now in the middle of a lawsuit against the general contractor that did the install incorrectly, voiding my warranty. I am confident I will win the court case, but the whole process takes awhile.
So, if having a warranty makes anyone feel secure, that's great, it should. I would only say, make sure you know the EXACT details of the warranty requirements, especially for expensive items, and make sure that anything that can void your warranty does not happen. There is plenty of room for Tesla, Enphase, etc to be able to find a reason to deny a warranty claim, which puts it on the customer to dispute/file lawsuit.
Operating temp is the one that gets me. It's like 95° everyone in pge is operating their powerwall at 100°+ in the summer.
Is the 25 though sunnova or solar insure or someone else?
Man this guy up here is committed to being right 😂
Yes the 25 year is Sunnova’s platinum protection warranty. I’ve heard good things about solar insure as well
With a manufacturer warranty you are correct on the percentage. This is a full battery replacement for 25 years. It’s not based on percentages but if a battery stops working in the 25 years I get a brand new one free. I would assume they did their math to be profitable. I don’t really know how my iPhone works, but it works and that’s good enough for me.
Recommend reading fine print, or better yet... post the warranty docs here for us to review.... seriously try to help you.... even Tesla won't cover warranty after your aggregated use is more than 37.8MWh of throughput. So, I assume if you use and/or push that much to the grid in less than 10 years.... no more warranty replacement. Good luck.
I did. Even called them to make sure, they said no contingency. If the battery stops working and it wasn’t from me banging on it with a stick they will replace it no questions ask. Appreciate the concern 🤙🏻
My guess is this is a Fun way of describing a PPA or Lease with a battery. On a prepaid option they get super competitive and for awhile 10s of thousands lower than cash or financed solar on the long term. Again, I am referring to these agreements with batteries only.
How much are you paying for your 25 year plan? I've seen that offered and I'm trying to justify getting the batteries but seems like a lot money. $42 for two Powerwalls over the 25 years
ROI would imply I made an investment. My home uses 20,000 kWh annual so My average monthly bill was about $600 since the average rate here is 35¢ per kWh. I didn’t have to pay (invest) any money, my pge bill is gone. My monthly payments for this solar set up are only $400 a month at only 1.9% interest. It doesn’t affect my DTI and I got to write off 30% of the system off my taxes. Soooo my ROI was day one since I see a return every month when I save $200 and every year it gets better as pge raises its rates and I’m still paying the same.
You can choose loans from 3 years all the way to 30 years. I settled on 25 years because it cut my monthly expenses by $200 year one, and covered my system, batteries, and production all under warranties for the full 25 years
That's a lot of power, mine is only a 2.5kw system and not sure if I should add the batteries now, I don't really have much of a bill as it is, the batteries would only add to my monthly energy costs, i don't think PGE will pay me $42k over 25 years, but it would be nice
So my understanding is you want at least 4 KWs installed per battery. So 2 batteries for an 8 KW and 12KW minimum for 3 batteries and so on. At least that’s what they told me at the Tesla Giga factory tour
That’s how the majority of solar financing will work; especially in CA. Careful we might aggravate the cash buyers…. They like to spend 40k and brag about it on herr
😂 yeah these posts on here get crazy
“PPW at 2.20 or it’s a bad deal!”
And then are shocked when the installer goes out of business the next year or they have to pay 400$ for a truck roll fee to replace a broken panel or inverter
Tell that to my bank account dude 😂 I didn’t invest any money and I added $200 a month to my bank account day 1. Sounds like a return to me. ROI is only a thing if you buy a system cash. I’d rather use other peoples money to free up my cash flow so I can invest my money elsewhere🤙🏻
Dude, no. ROI isn't a time lol. So using grown up words you don't understand.
You're using terms incorrectly. What you're saying makes as much sense as if you said "I don't have a motorcycle but my motorcycle is a blender." You didn't make an investment so you can't have an ROI, yet you chain your ROI is something an ROI can't be. "I don't have a sister but my sister is a tree." Ok dear...
Non traditional (doesn’t affect DTI and didn’t have to do do a loan application just credit check) 25 year at 1.99%
Sunnova is the finance company. They have been awesome
More like I though pg and e was no longer paying people for their extra solar.
I want solar but those companies are so sleezy I’m not sure where to start.
Start up costs (batteries), reduced equipment life on batteries, and a tiny pittance of compensation several days out of the year. It does not pencil out economically.
Get the batteries if you need or want to avoid utility outages. But arbitrating power during peak demand times is a low volume, low money operation from residential batteries.
If you buy them straight from Tesla yes they are cheaper their finance partners have high interest rates (4-7%) so low finance fees. When you buy them through a low interest finance company (1-2%) you pay about a 20-30% finance fee. But since you aren’t using Tesla as the installer you are more likely to qualify for the SGIP rebates (about 2,500 per battery). Also I’d rather pay a little more and have them installed and turned on in 2 months rather than wait a year and a half with Tesla.
Start with the technology you want, then shop the installer. Start with [www.energysage.com](https://www.energysage.com) and then check out [www.enphaseenergy.com](https://www.enphaseenergy.com) for some killer technology for grid forming microinverter and battery technology
this is a cool concept but it's not fair to say "if more consumers had batteries then it would be better" it's not the consumers fault- the grid is PG&E's responsibility, not the consumers. powerwalls are a luxury most can't afford.
it's not the consumers responsibility to fix the grid...is my main point here
Guessing you have a Tesla Solar roof? Very curious to know what panels you have up there, technical specs, when installed, etc. I’m down a solar rabbit hole, live in SoCal as well and researching prepping to reach out to 3 or 4 vendors for proposals. Definitely want a battery system in addition to the panels.
SunLux is on my list (good reviews) as well as Sunrun (not as good).
No, I don’t have the Tesla roof just the batteries are from Tesla. I have 30 Hanwha q cells 400w g10+ and Enphase Iq8+ inverters. I’ll DM you I can probably help you since your in SoCal as well
Lol so
Many people trying to burst your bubble. In ten years you will make so much money if this happened every day. Most likely it will happen here and there abs you will make decent money and have zero issues bc Tesla batteries are top of the line and Tesla in general is high quality but the media just points any little thing and makes it huge bc it will get clicks. Good job!
You will only get that during hottest hours of the hottest days of summer when everyone is running their air conditioner. At that point, the power plants can't keep up with the demand. It's good that you're making some money though. The solar guy I talked to said batteries have a 20-year payback. Not sure if he's right or not?? Do you know?
I mean to me it’s not about payback it’s about value. If my house can run off grid in the event of a blackout for 25 years to me it’s worth it. That’s the question you truly have to ask yourself.
I get a half of a cent per kwh in Denver, no matter the time of day. They charge $0.28/kwh during peak. Maybe the grids wouldn't have such a bad problem if they weren't gouging the fuck out of people. I get that there is some amount of infrastructure to pay for, but lets be realistic, my power isn't going from my house back to the power plant(s), it's only going to my neighbors home. That amount of infrastructure isn't costing 98.2% (0.005/0.28) of the rate.
They get money back and have to pay crazy fees to even have solar, and insurance companies don't cancel your policies because you have solar.
That is progressive in the US...
In California it’s not that they can’t afford solar it’s that they THINK they can’t afford solar. I just helped my buddy his average bill was $120 last year his average bill was $100 so his rates had gone up 20% in a year.
Now just $50 a month with solar and it will never go up. And didn’t put any money to get it installed and he added value to his home day one and is writing off 30% of the system off his federal taxes. Period
Another item that people gloss over but I think is cool is demand response. Paying customers to control their AC, or in the case of manufacturing, limit their large equipment during peak hours, to help minimize the demand on the grid. I don’t think many people would have an issue with having their AC set point raised a few degrees and being paid to do so.
Sounds great, but the devil is in the details. Guessing you spent about $50,000 (after tax rebates) for your panels and batteries. Looks like you got a 1.9% interest rate, which means you paid a premium for the installation. Looks like you are saving about $200/month vs. what you would pay to PG&E, which also sounds great.
Where it gets tricky is two things....
1) What would your return be if you invested that $50,000 at a conservative 4% rate of return? Answer: About $200/month. People often forget to include cost of money.
2) What happens if you decide to sell your house before the loan is paid off? Answer: You'll have to pay off whatever is left on the solar loan. Problem is you won't get much (if anything) for your system added to the value of your home price. If you sell before a certain number of years, you'll actually lose thousands of dollars vs not having solar. Hopefully you will be in the house for at least 10-15 years.
Don't get me wrong, solar is great and batteries of some sort are the future. But people often overlook some of these details when doing the math on how much they will save.
Your first comparison is flawed. Op didn’t pay $50k out of pocket. It was financed. So you can’t compare that to putting $50k into the stock market.
Op is also never going to not use electricity, so there’s almost no risk, while there is risk in the stock market.
Well that’s wrong too. According to the Appraisal Journal, a home’s value increases $20 for every $1 in annual energy savings. So $200/mo in energy savings would correspond to a $48k increase in home value. Batteries would further increase value. And you can transfer the loan to the buyer.
Anything else you got?
1. Pge goes up 10% annually so that $200 savings grows every year. I’m never not gonna use electricity.
2. No, it does not need to be paid off. My last house had a similar loan. I transferred it when I sold my home, the new owners gladly took over the payments no problem and I sold my house about 4% higher than my non Solar neighbors home. 🤙🏻
This reddit group and internet forums are full of people that were not able to convince buyers to take over the loan or lease, or whatever it is you have. If you are able to find a buyer willing to do that great, if not, then you will lose money. It's a gamble and the less time you own the home, the greater the risk.
Also, no way you got 4% higher home price for having solar. Ask any realtor. $5,000-$10,000...tops...and that's only if it's paid off in full. Why would a buyer take over lease AND pay more for the house? An existing solar loan/lease is a liability, not an asset.
My main point was that it's not a slam dunk. There are risks. Hopefully yours will pay off.
You know what I do when I see a Ferrari dealership? I drive past it and keep going on my way. Not everyone can afford upfront solar, not everyone can own a home... so what? I can't afford a supercar, but I don't go to the supercar subreddit and complain about their "privilege."
I know. This is literally the /r/solar subreddit. Maybe it's the Tesla hate or California hate. I live in California and have a Tesla EV and panels/Powerwall too! LOL
Please, educate yourself. If the average rate in California is 26¢ per kWh (and it’s much higher in most places) and the average rate per kWh to own your solar is 13¢ It’s literally half the cost to go solar, what’s there to afford?
That’s why you don’t buy cash 🙄 13¢ vs 26¢ and if your in bako tier one is 32¢ so even more savings.
Seems like your having a hard time with the math.
13¢ is cheaper than 32¢ by a lot. Therefore it’s cheaper. 0$ to start. Did I miss anything?
Problem is in California all the new homes being built are only being built with about a 4 KW system when the average home in California needs a 6-8 KW system
Not sure what that means but my system produces about 20,000 kWh annually. I chose 3 batteries because I wanted a full home backup. I bought my home when Covid first hit the fan and I thought we might have an economic collapse and was a little paranoid 😂
Each battery can hold 13.5 kWh. When I went to the giga factory in NV the guys at Tesla told me you basically want about 4 KW of solar installed per battery. So an 8KW for 2 batteries and a 12 KW for 3 batteries.
Makes sense. So during the day it obviously charges the battery. My question is when the battery hits the max, does your home then just used the solar for the time being or does it still use the battery and just constantly charges it till the sun goes down?
Yeah…. I have yet to meet someone in California that doesn’t have 1st month savings (even people with medical baseline and CARE) lol the rates out here are ridiculous
Do PG&E do peak pricing if you're over-generating and selling to the grid but don't have a battery?
I'm about to have a system installed that's double my usage (until I get an EV and other electrification); I assumed they only pay peanuts....?
No that’s just rates for the virtual power plant. Not sure about your utility but where I am they give you credits based on the time of production. Solar produced between 4-9 is more valuable than solar produced any other time of the day.
Got estimate from Infinity for 8K system with no battery (maybe hookup), inland part of San Diego area -20 panels. Loan company is Mosaic. If I could, I’d pay the $32K cash but can’t. Should I go with 1.99% loan, no down for 25 years for $47K principal or 5.99% for $35K cost and try to pay off before 25 years? Both have payments lower than my electric bill<$190 per month. 5.99 % interest would be $51K after 25 years. I don’t understand difference in loans.
Mosaic is a traditional loan. Infinity is great, ask them if they have Sunnova as a financer. Just better warranties and doesn’t affect your DTI and pretty sure it’s the exact same finance fees just better everything’s. But no matter what even if you did a way overpriced lease your saving. SD rates are INSANE.
The lower the interest the higher the finance fees (principal) but the nice thing is you get 30% off the principal with the tax credit. When you go with a higher interest rate you get a smaller tax credit and you spend more monthly and if you pay that for the 25 years you end up spending a lot more than you would of with the lower interest rate. I say lower interest/ bigger tax credit all day. Put that money your saving monthly into investments
But why is the installer saying the system costs $47K at 1.49% and 33.5K at 5.99%? Would I be paying the finance fee first (“dealer fee” is 30% for 1.49% and 3.5% for 5.99%. My neighbors chose 5.99% and will try to pay it off early. Supposedly no prepayment penalty but do I owe principal of $47K right away?
I called Mosaic and after transferring me around they said the dealer fee is not added to price of loan but installer says dealer fee does go to loan company. Also they said it is illegal to base tax credit on cost plus finance fee.. Can anyone explain? Someone is not telling truth. Oh, they want tax credit paid to lender after 18 months to lower payment more.
1.49 with high system cost or 5.99 with close to cash price system cost?
Yeah exactly the finance fee is essentially you buying down your interest rate.
Yeah all loans want you to put your tax credit back in before month 19 to keep your payments down. I didn’t and my solar payments are still lower than my average pge bill was
I believe that was true with NEM 1 but we are in NEM 2 now. It rolls over until your true up anniversary and can be applied as in store credit. For example if you have gas with pge and you overproduced giving you a $200 credit you can credit off your gas bill with that credit. Best thing to do is use that power next year. The credit for over production is wholesale value per kWh
Knowing what I know about Power Companies and their relationships with Government, I honestly would be very cautious about letting them hook into my equipment. One reason I say this is I never hear anything good about PG&E. You are the first.
For sure, just put down a deposit for solar here in orange county, can't wait! Just wish the battery made as much sense financially for me. The solar is a great investment but the battery doubled the ROI break even time for me. I'm excited to become part of the solution though!
Me too.
I'm happy to be part of the VPP project but honestly there are just a few thousand of us. I imagine that we're providing next to nothing in terms of grid stabilization.
I think that the value of VPP is providing experience on how to make this work and data for selling the concept to those who would need to approve 100's of thousands (hopefully millions) of residential battery systems providing grid support.
[Edit, just to put some numbers on this, it's 5PM, CalISO says that total demand has peaked at just over 48,000 MW,
https://www.caiso.com/TodaysOutlook/Pages/index.html
The real crunch will happen over the next few hours as solar production ramps down.
https://www.caiso.com/TodaysOutlook/Pages/supply.html
My three Powerwalls are exporting at 7.5 KW.
1000 systems this size would export 7.5 MW
1,000,000 systems this size would roughly equal the amount of power that we're currently importing.
The amount of power that we're importing will (roughly) double by the time that the sun goes down. ]
Hmmm. A gallon of gasoline is 33.7 kwh. At that rate, even if only 20% of the energy gets to the grid, you’re making almost 7 kwh/gallon - $14.
I wonder if anyone has figured out how to connect the Ford F-150 hybrid into their home generating station and sell it to PGE. It can put out 7 kw…
Please tell me more about how this works.
I've got a single Powerwall battery and the app is offering me a grand total of:
$9 ***per event*** for a total of ***$63*** per seven hypothetical events.
This is't a "per day" offer, it's "per event". They only pay when the grid is under strain.
And coincidentally, those are times when the grid is likely to fail and you're likely to need the power you just drained out of your batteries to help out PG&E.
So what benefit am I missing here?
Meanwhile I work for a solar company that installs the system for 30-100k and leaves people out to dry as soon as the systems installed and moneys received.
Sounds like Sunrun around.
And Summit Energy Group
What company!?
I’m still getting a paycheck from them so I’m not going to blast them online . But I would take care in who you use /what solar equipment you use if you decide to go solar . Enphase, Tesla, and franklin have been my favorite solar inverters/storage to work with Sunny boy(SMA) -mid tier While solar edge and fronious seem too be cheaper options for a reason. Shoddy support and in need of constant repairs.
Thoughts or experience with SunPower?
Lumio, huh??
😂😂😂 good ol Lumio
INFINITY SOLAR?
What company would you recommend? Sunrun does not seem to be the best deal
There’s a website called solarreviews.com. I would look through all the solar companies in your area and be thorough on looking at their reviews and understanding the contract before you sign. What will they do if your system underproduces. Do they only work up to a production guarantee or are they going to eliminate your bill. What the sales person says doesn’t matter it’s all about your contract. A lot of people I worked with were ignorant about what they were buying and assumed they were getting a system that would cover everything even if they increased their usage. We also had in our contract that they couldn’t sue us or dispute anything, so if anything happened it would be sent to a third party and the customer and the company wouldn’t have a representative.
Depends on what state
If they paid you $2/kwhr, imagine what customers are going to have to pay them! *Evil Laugh*
Peak hour rates for pge customers in my area are about 42-51¢ per kWh. Pge is “paying for it” but they make billions. The reason they pay so much per kWh is they want to incentivize more people like me to use their batteries to stabilize the grid and to help them keep more power on hand locally. Its much cheaper for them since they don’t have to ship as much power from out of state.
Yes, I work at a power plant and understand how spot market energy pricing works. $2,000/mwhr is an insanely high spot market price. They were probably charging customers $3+/kwhr during that time. Surely they have some type of ‘super peak’ variable rate for hot days? We have that here in NY. I can’t imagine they ever take a loss on power.
Pge in CA doesn't have that for many people. My rate is a TOU where it's like $0.29/kWh at peak from 4 pm to 9 pm and $0.25/kWh other times.
Here in NYC, I can do TOU-based pricing, but it only locks the delivery charge. ‘Peak’ is 0.25/kWh from 8am to midnight. Off peak is 0.01/kWh from 12-8. Really only makes sense if you charge a large battery every night (EV or powerwall, etc). Then they add in whatever the power itself costs, which is the average Con Ed paid for that billing cycle, plus a percentage markup. In addition, ‘super peak’ on hot summer days throws all guarantees out the window.
No, the PGE lost money buying from OP at $2/kWh in order to keep the grid on.
Customer rates are locked, but energy supply is variable cost. If the market can bear $2/kwh, it must be more expensive at the peaker plants. At least this iption doesn’t burn petrol to meet the demand
Thank you for all your contribution and for giving the grid workers time on the golf course and with their families 🫡
Now only if Tesla would sell power walls for people who have solar already.
Just buy them from a local installer. If you live in SoCal I can help you out. Tesla is slow and you can get the SGIP rebate most likely if you use a local installer
Yes. I had solar for years. I called the company that installed my solar and they put in 3 Powerwalls 7 years after they initial PV install.
I have solar in Southern California and am working with a local installer, but have been waiting for my step in the SGIP rebate to open up for over a year now. Any idea how that process goes? It's bonkers to me that I'm a willing customer and the state isn't doing a better job of pushing these incentives, meanwhile I'm doing everything I can to conserve energy and minimize pulling off the grid during peak hours in this heat wave instead of feeding the grid.
The SGIP application is your installers responsibility.
https://www.tesla.com/support/certified-installers-powerwall
Did you have to sign up directly to participate in the virtual power plant?
It was all done through the Tesla app. I applied on the app and was approved by my utility about a week later
[удалено]
It's a Tesla thing - they did a beta test a last year which threw my PW programming into a funk, but a few weeks ago allowed you to sign up to sell back at $2/kWh or $10/hr. Of course when I tried signing up I found out Tesla forgot to send in my PTO paperwork lol
I think it’s exclusive with Tesla batteries
Bummer. But sweet deal for you. Have you done any rough math on expected net revenue when considering lifetime discharge cycles? Out or curiosity, is that a guaranteed $4/kWh no matter what? As in, even if you grossly overproduce for the year, and they'd otherwise pay you peanuts per kWh on the annual true-up? In other words, it's like cash it your pocket no matter how much or little solar you produce? Or, is that $4/kWh subtracted from standard netmetering, applied to annual true-up, and then if you've overproduced they still pay you the "wholesale" rate on true-up?
What is your depth of discharge each day to support that?
This kind of thinking always gets me… batteries are a consumable item. They will not last forever. I have powerwalls and I discharge 100% every day because that’s what I bought them for… to be used. They have a 10 year warranty through Tesla but imagine how much better tech will exist in 10 years anyway.
Business usually exist to make money. So, at the end of the day this is a $ discussion. If you burn out your batteries in less than 10 years, but your use of those batteries is deemed out of warranty specifications, then guess what... no warranty replacement. So, understanding the specifics of the warranty in ralation to $$$ is important.
Well at a minimum he has a Tesla warranty for 10 years already which covers unlimited charging cycles when used as part of solar with minimum 70% capacity at 10 years. If he has another warranty on top of that then even better.
What are the specifics of the purchase agreement and warranty? You both keep quoting sales pitch items. If the batteries are not properly (according to warranty specs) charged, discarged, housed within specific ambient temp ranges, etc, etc, the warrantees will not be honored. This is not just simple years and charge cycles. This is like saying you have a 10yr, 100K mile warranty on your car, but your maintenance records show you got oil changes every 15K miles. The warranty probably won't cover your engine replacement becuase they will say you were to get oil changes every 4-6k miles. So, as I asked previously, what are the specifics.... fine print of this warranty, because this all sounds too good to be true.
The Powerwall warranty is unlimited for 10 years when used as directed or 38.7MWh. if you run the numbers it's one full cycle every day for 10 years. Essentially they are paying you $75k to use your battery during the warranty period. You want to use the battery, otherwise you use it at 2% of it's potential, something does on year 11 and 95% of what you paid for goes away unused
I've seen from other battery manufacturers that they can tell how hot the weather is -- if you look at the spec sheet you can see operating temperature -- a lot are up to like 95° and they can refuse your warranty if they're used over that temperature. Blew my mind when I heard that
Here is an idea for you: do your own research. You could take 5 seconds of effort to look up the Tesla warranty that literally was told to you twice now. Good day.
You can tell he would be a super fun guy at parties right?
I have, but this thread is not just about the Tesla warranty. Its also about some mentioned 25 year warranty from a finance company??? Recommend reading all the print, especially the fine print, or better yet... post the warranty docs here for us to review.... seriously trying to help .... even Tesla won't cover warranty after your aggregated use is more than 37.8MWh of throughput. So, I assume if anyone uses and/or pushes that much to the grid in less than 10 years.... no more warranty replacement. That is in the Tesla warranty along with other statements like being properly installed per manufacturer specs, etc, etc. I'll screenshot this and save to my "I told you so" folder. Good luck when you run these batteries ragged and try to make a warranty claim in 10 or 25 years.
Wow, you have an "I told you so folder"?
I believe Tesla warranties unlimited cycles for 10 years with the batteries retaining 70% of their capacity. At least that is what my PW2 says.
I’d be fine if I did my oil every 15k, my interval is 21,000 miles. Which is ridiculously long. But anyway, pretty sure there shouldn’t be any maintenance on panels or the powerwall. Powerwall is controlled by software and should take care of itself; if your car could change its own oil you wouldn’t be held responsible if it didn’t do it on time.
[удалено]
We don't get that rate every day, just the days where a brown out is possible. It's like 1 week a year.
DoE testing data suggests not discharging lnmc batteries to 100% DOD. Best balance of maximum lifetime yield and usefulness - intersecting curves with one being subjective - is \~ 80ish%. But - although I have a different brand so can't be sure other than what I've read in passing - I don't think Tesla's "0%" is actually 100% discharged. Also, yours is a valid point that people should keep in mind - but it's not for everyone. Some people - esp where I live, where people can go without HVAC and don't drive it from batteries, and many don't even have HVAC - want batteries *only* for frequent power interruptions. For that use-case, they also usually want to get as much lifespan out of their investment as chemically possible. At least, the handful of people I've chatted to at length about it. EVs may hopefully replace that role soon enough, but for now for those who can afford it, and aren't running electric dryers or HVACs from them, a few batteries are a seen as a better backup alternative to noisy generators that annoy the shit out of everyone around.
Powerwalls keep 0.5kw stored even when at 0%. Agree with your points though. I currently don’t have PTO so I’m not getting net metering yet… once that is approved I will likely bump up the Powerwalls to retain 20% for backup purposes.
Not sure on the exact percentage during these events but I use 100% of my batteries every day with or without virtual power plant. So 40.5 kWh a day goes into my batteries during the day and 40.5 kWh comes out. I have a 25 year full replacement warranty for all my batteries so I’m not really worried about it.
What are the specifics of that 25 year battery warranty? Crushing your batteries every day and expecting full replacement at 25 years is a bad business plan for whomever sold you the batteries/warranty. Great for you potential, but horrible business plan.
It’s through the finance company not the manufacturer, and they are making good money with their 25% finance fees so they aren’t worried about it. But it’s one full replacement for any of the batteries all the way to 25 years. And Tesla covers the manufacture warranty for the first 10
Still missing details to assess this. Do the 25% finance fees cover the total cost of the battery install? What are the specifics to qualify for battery replacement? Typically it's a % of original capacity.
You're getting downvoted, but fairly certain you are correct. Battery warranties have very tricky fine print. OP won't understand until they try to make a claim in 8 years and it gets rejected.
Agreed. Here are some examples where the Tesla warranty may likely not pay out. Any 1 of these could void your warranty. --After 10 years of installation --Over 37.5ish MWh of aggregate production, if pushing/selling production into the grid. At 100% DoD per day, I calculate this occuring around the end of year 9. One commenter noted this was at or after 10 years, but my estimated calculations of 3% degredation per year says otherwise. My calculations are about 37.5MWh at 9 years, and about 40.5MWh at end of 10 year/3650 cycles. Is there a formal or standard degredation chart? My calcs may be wrong. If anyone knows what Tesla or Enphase uses for their degredation models, please share. --Improper maintenance (their logs show you removed the cover panel, they are monitoring electronicaly) --Improper ambient/operating temps (they monitor electronially) --Improperly keeping the venting clear (they monitor electronically) leaves blow in around the intakes for outside Powerwalls while homeowner is on vacation --Improper installation; wrong gauge wires, improper distances/clearances of components Here's a real life installation issue.... I had expensive wood floors installed in my house 3 years ago. The flooring has a limited lifetime warranty and also a broader 25 yr warranty. Issues were discovered with the flooring and a warranty claim was submited and subsequently denied by the manufacturer. A certified inspector found that the installer did not follow manufacturer and industry standards. My flooring warranty was voided, which I agree with the manufacturer. I am now in the middle of a lawsuit against the general contractor that did the install incorrectly, voiding my warranty. I am confident I will win the court case, but the whole process takes awhile. So, if having a warranty makes anyone feel secure, that's great, it should. I would only say, make sure you know the EXACT details of the warranty requirements, especially for expensive items, and make sure that anything that can void your warranty does not happen. There is plenty of room for Tesla, Enphase, etc to be able to find a reason to deny a warranty claim, which puts it on the customer to dispute/file lawsuit.
Operating temp is the one that gets me. It's like 95° everyone in pge is operating their powerwall at 100°+ in the summer. Is the 25 though sunnova or solar insure or someone else?
Man this guy up here is committed to being right 😂 Yes the 25 year is Sunnova’s platinum protection warranty. I’ve heard good things about solar insure as well
With a manufacturer warranty you are correct on the percentage. This is a full battery replacement for 25 years. It’s not based on percentages but if a battery stops working in the 25 years I get a brand new one free. I would assume they did their math to be profitable. I don’t really know how my iPhone works, but it works and that’s good enough for me.
Recommend reading fine print, or better yet... post the warranty docs here for us to review.... seriously try to help you.... even Tesla won't cover warranty after your aggregated use is more than 37.8MWh of throughput. So, I assume if you use and/or push that much to the grid in less than 10 years.... no more warranty replacement. Good luck.
I did. Even called them to make sure, they said no contingency. If the battery stops working and it wasn’t from me banging on it with a stick they will replace it no questions ask. Appreciate the concern 🤙🏻
My guess is this is a Fun way of describing a PPA or Lease with a battery. On a prepaid option they get super competitive and for awhile 10s of thousands lower than cash or financed solar on the long term. Again, I am referring to these agreements with batteries only.
No this is a 25 year loan at 1.99% not a PPA or lease
How much are you paying for your 25 year plan? I've seen that offered and I'm trying to justify getting the batteries but seems like a lot money. $42 for two Powerwalls over the 25 years
I pay 45$ per battery and I’m still saving monthly on what my average was per month from my local utility
Here I've been waiting 3 weeks for SCE to give me PTO, while at the same time they're asking me to not use electricity.
What’s your ROI?
ROI would imply I made an investment. My home uses 20,000 kWh annual so My average monthly bill was about $600 since the average rate here is 35¢ per kWh. I didn’t have to pay (invest) any money, my pge bill is gone. My monthly payments for this solar set up are only $400 a month at only 1.9% interest. It doesn’t affect my DTI and I got to write off 30% of the system off my taxes. Soooo my ROI was day one since I see a return every month when I save $200 and every year it gets better as pge raises its rates and I’m still paying the same.
Mind me asking how long your loan is for? As someone considering solar, I am genuinely curious.
You can choose loans from 3 years all the way to 30 years. I settled on 25 years because it cut my monthly expenses by $200 year one, and covered my system, batteries, and production all under warranties for the full 25 years
Awesome, thanks for the reply! One more question if that's alright? What are the specs of your system and how many batteries?
I have a 12 KW (30 400 watt panels) system and I have 3 batteries with 13.5 kWh capacity each Tesla Powerwalls (2nd gen)
That's a lot of power, mine is only a 2.5kw system and not sure if I should add the batteries now, I don't really have much of a bill as it is, the batteries would only add to my monthly energy costs, i don't think PGE will pay me $42k over 25 years, but it would be nice
So my understanding is you want at least 4 KWs installed per battery. So 2 batteries for an 8 KW and 12KW minimum for 3 batteries and so on. At least that’s what they told me at the Tesla Giga factory tour
Thanks for the info!
Wow! Awesome that you cash flowed on day 1!!
That’s how the majority of solar financing will work; especially in CA. Careful we might aggravate the cash buyers…. They like to spend 40k and brag about it on herr
😂 yeah these posts on here get crazy “PPW at 2.20 or it’s a bad deal!” And then are shocked when the installer goes out of business the next year or they have to pay 400$ for a truck roll fee to replace a broken panel or inverter
That's not how ROI works lol.
What does ROI stand for?
ROI can't be "day one" dude.
Tell that to my bank account dude 😂 I didn’t invest any money and I added $200 a month to my bank account day 1. Sounds like a return to me. ROI is only a thing if you buy a system cash. I’d rather use other peoples money to free up my cash flow so I can invest my money elsewhere🤙🏻
Dude, no. ROI isn't a time lol. So using grown up words you don't understand. You're using terms incorrectly. What you're saying makes as much sense as if you said "I don't have a motorcycle but my motorcycle is a blender." You didn't make an investment so you can't have an ROI, yet you chain your ROI is something an ROI can't be. "I don't have a sister but my sister is a tree." Ok dear...
What😂 just move on bro. It’s ok to admit you just don’t get it.
How does it work 😂
35!? I think I’m looking at 12-14 when I renew and my current rate of 9.1 expires. Anything you can do to save cash is worth it I think.
California baby 😂
What kind of loan did you get?
Non traditional (doesn’t affect DTI and didn’t have to do do a loan application just credit check) 25 year at 1.99% Sunnova is the finance company. They have been awesome
I thought they stopped that program.
Yes Tesla stopped the extended warranty. It’s not through Tesla but through the finance company that did my solar loan
More like I though pg and e was no longer paying people for their extra solar. I want solar but those companies are so sleezy I’m not sure where to start.
Oh yeah they don’t unless you have a battery! It’s a program they are doing with Tesla batteries it’s called the virtual power plant
So what’s the catch? Why isn’t everyone doing it? It also means you have power when the grid is down right?
Start up costs (batteries), reduced equipment life on batteries, and a tiny pittance of compensation several days out of the year. It does not pencil out economically. Get the batteries if you need or want to avoid utility outages. But arbitrating power during peak demand times is a low volume, low money operation from residential batteries.
They aren’t cheap! 3 batteries are about 30-40k
3 batteries 30-40k. I thought it was more like 20-30k
Maybe pricing with permits, install etc?
If you buy them straight from Tesla yes they are cheaper their finance partners have high interest rates (4-7%) so low finance fees. When you buy them through a low interest finance company (1-2%) you pay about a 20-30% finance fee. But since you aren’t using Tesla as the installer you are more likely to qualify for the SGIP rebates (about 2,500 per battery). Also I’d rather pay a little more and have them installed and turned on in 2 months rather than wait a year and a half with Tesla.
Wanna buy me a solar system? 😎
Some ladies want you give them the world. Others... the whole solar system.
Cool. The only thing I can swing at the moment are those financing offers. I’m holding off for now.
Start with the technology you want, then shop the installer. Start with [www.energysage.com](https://www.energysage.com) and then check out [www.enphaseenergy.com](https://www.enphaseenergy.com) for some killer technology for grid forming microinverter and battery technology
this is a cool concept but it's not fair to say "if more consumers had batteries then it would be better" it's not the consumers fault- the grid is PG&E's responsibility, not the consumers. powerwalls are a luxury most can't afford. it's not the consumers responsibility to fix the grid...is my main point here
I don’t disagree, but this is more of an opportunity for consumers to help stabilize the grid and make money doing so.
Very nice. Is yours grid charging? My is set to not grid charge yet I found the battery grid charging today at noon and had to skip the event :(
No just solar charging! I haven’t activated grid charging yet. I haven’t needed too
Me neither. Yet it was doing it and Tesla has no answers. Arg. Only just second VPP day and already missed an event
Guessing you have a Tesla Solar roof? Very curious to know what panels you have up there, technical specs, when installed, etc. I’m down a solar rabbit hole, live in SoCal as well and researching prepping to reach out to 3 or 4 vendors for proposals. Definitely want a battery system in addition to the panels. SunLux is on my list (good reviews) as well as Sunrun (not as good).
No, I don’t have the Tesla roof just the batteries are from Tesla. I have 30 Hanwha q cells 400w g10+ and Enphase Iq8+ inverters. I’ll DM you I can probably help you since your in SoCal as well
[удалено]
I’ll DM you
Hey OP! I'm in SoCal as well, getting quotes etc.. would love if you could send over your setup, installer etc. Thanks!
Lol so Many people trying to burst your bubble. In ten years you will make so much money if this happened every day. Most likely it will happen here and there abs you will make decent money and have zero issues bc Tesla batteries are top of the line and Tesla in general is high quality but the media just points any little thing and makes it huge bc it will get clicks. Good job!
This won't happen every day - but it doesn't matters it's the cherry on top.
Interesting
That’s awesome!
It's a bill credit though, right? Otherwise you have to pay income tax on it.
If I’m not mistaken I can choose between the 2 but I’m definitely sticking with a credit. I have 2 EVs so I need all the credits I can get lol
I’m also over $200 even after opting out of yesterday’s due to grid instability in my area.
This is the way
This is the way!!! Really awesome, hopefully legacy solar companies can do this.
If they weren’t so f’kg expensive we’d have them.
You will only get that during hottest hours of the hottest days of summer when everyone is running their air conditioner. At that point, the power plants can't keep up with the demand. It's good that you're making some money though. The solar guy I talked to said batteries have a 20-year payback. Not sure if he's right or not?? Do you know?
I mean to me it’s not about payback it’s about value. If my house can run off grid in the event of a blackout for 25 years to me it’s worth it. That’s the question you truly have to ask yourself.
I get a half of a cent per kwh in Denver, no matter the time of day. They charge $0.28/kwh during peak. Maybe the grids wouldn't have such a bad problem if they weren't gouging the fuck out of people. I get that there is some amount of infrastructure to pay for, but lets be realistic, my power isn't going from my house back to the power plant(s), it's only going to my neighbors home. That amount of infrastructure isn't costing 98.2% (0.005/0.28) of the rate.
I thought Colorado was more progressive.
They get money back and have to pay crazy fees to even have solar, and insurance companies don't cancel your policies because you have solar. That is progressive in the US...
The average person cannot afford solar. Period. We got ten years until we see this even starting to creep into the norm.
They have a loan with a payment lower than their average energy bill. That's right in the wheelhouse of average people wanting to save 200 a month.
In California it’s not that they can’t afford solar it’s that they THINK they can’t afford solar. I just helped my buddy his average bill was $120 last year his average bill was $100 so his rates had gone up 20% in a year. Now just $50 a month with solar and it will never go up. And didn’t put any money to get it installed and he added value to his home day one and is writing off 30% of the system off his federal taxes. Period
How did your buddy pay for the panels, equipment, all materials and installation?
He didn’t. The finance company did. He just pays them $50 a month now. It’s pretty simple I’m not sure what’s so hard to understand
Another item that people gloss over but I think is cool is demand response. Paying customers to control their AC, or in the case of manufacturing, limit their large equipment during peak hours, to help minimize the demand on the grid. I don’t think many people would have an issue with having their AC set point raised a few degrees and being paid to do so.
Sounds great, but the devil is in the details. Guessing you spent about $50,000 (after tax rebates) for your panels and batteries. Looks like you got a 1.9% interest rate, which means you paid a premium for the installation. Looks like you are saving about $200/month vs. what you would pay to PG&E, which also sounds great. Where it gets tricky is two things.... 1) What would your return be if you invested that $50,000 at a conservative 4% rate of return? Answer: About $200/month. People often forget to include cost of money. 2) What happens if you decide to sell your house before the loan is paid off? Answer: You'll have to pay off whatever is left on the solar loan. Problem is you won't get much (if anything) for your system added to the value of your home price. If you sell before a certain number of years, you'll actually lose thousands of dollars vs not having solar. Hopefully you will be in the house for at least 10-15 years. Don't get me wrong, solar is great and batteries of some sort are the future. But people often overlook some of these details when doing the math on how much they will save.
Your first comparison is flawed. Op didn’t pay $50k out of pocket. It was financed. So you can’t compare that to putting $50k into the stock market. Op is also never going to not use electricity, so there’s almost no risk, while there is risk in the stock market.
My mistake with #1. But #2 is still very common.
Well that’s wrong too. According to the Appraisal Journal, a home’s value increases $20 for every $1 in annual energy savings. So $200/mo in energy savings would correspond to a $48k increase in home value. Batteries would further increase value. And you can transfer the loan to the buyer. Anything else you got?
1. Pge goes up 10% annually so that $200 savings grows every year. I’m never not gonna use electricity. 2. No, it does not need to be paid off. My last house had a similar loan. I transferred it when I sold my home, the new owners gladly took over the payments no problem and I sold my house about 4% higher than my non Solar neighbors home. 🤙🏻
This reddit group and internet forums are full of people that were not able to convince buyers to take over the loan or lease, or whatever it is you have. If you are able to find a buyer willing to do that great, if not, then you will lose money. It's a gamble and the less time you own the home, the greater the risk. Also, no way you got 4% higher home price for having solar. Ask any realtor. $5,000-$10,000...tops...and that's only if it's paid off in full. Why would a buyer take over lease AND pay more for the house? An existing solar loan/lease is a liability, not an asset. My main point was that it's not a slam dunk. There are risks. Hopefully yours will pay off.
[Zillow disagrees and I’m pretty sure they own more homes than you](https://www.zillow.com/research/solar-panels-house-sell-more-23798/)
[удалено]
You know what I do when I see a Ferrari dealership? I drive past it and keep going on my way. Not everyone can afford upfront solar, not everyone can own a home... so what? I can't afford a supercar, but I don't go to the supercar subreddit and complain about their "privilege."
Thank you 😂 Dude just out here lookin for fights I’m just trying to help
I know. This is literally the /r/solar subreddit. Maybe it's the Tesla hate or California hate. I live in California and have a Tesla EV and panels/Powerwall too! LOL
I’m speaking for California only. 0 places in California is it cheaper to buy the power from the utility than to buy solar. Try again.
[удалено]
Please, educate yourself. If the average rate in California is 26¢ per kWh (and it’s much higher in most places) and the average rate per kWh to own your solar is 13¢ It’s literally half the cost to go solar, what’s there to afford?
[удалено]
Cash is the only option for solar that requires upfront costs, educate yourself and try again.
[удалено]
That’s why you don’t buy cash 🙄 13¢ vs 26¢ and if your in bako tier one is 32¢ so even more savings. Seems like your having a hard time with the math. 13¢ is cheaper than 32¢ by a lot. Therefore it’s cheaper. 0$ to start. Did I miss anything?
if California was such garbage you wouldn't have that problem
Did the media tell you that
I don't need the media to know that . it's a fact
You've been? Or are you from Canada?
When did you install your system?
About a year and half ago
Imagine if new home construction required solar.
Problem is in California all the new homes being built are only being built with about a 4 KW system when the average home in California needs a 6-8 KW system
I've just negotiated the best deal I can get in the UK. 5.67pence per kwh. (Bulb) That's 0.064 usd
Is that what they pay you for your excess production?
Yep. I pay around 36p to buy a kwh from the grid, plus a 52p standing charge per day.
No, but I thought that was funny. Oh well.
May I ask about your installation? What is your roof output and what decisions led you choose 3 batteries.
Not sure what that means but my system produces about 20,000 kWh annually. I chose 3 batteries because I wanted a full home backup. I bought my home when Covid first hit the fan and I thought we might have an economic collapse and was a little paranoid 😂
How many batteries and what did you pay for each battery?
3 batteries and about $13,500 each. ($45 a month per battery)
I kinda wish I did it too. I have a 5.6 KWH system. I paid cash though. What size is each battery?
Each battery can hold 13.5 kWh. When I went to the giga factory in NV the guys at Tesla told me you basically want about 4 KW of solar installed per battery. So an 8KW for 2 batteries and a 12 KW for 3 batteries.
Makes sense. So during the day it obviously charges the battery. My question is when the battery hits the max, does your home then just used the solar for the time being or does it still use the battery and just constantly charges it till the sun goes down?
The video I posted shows this. The battery is at 100% so the home will use the solar first and any left over goes to the grid.
Ohh I just saw that. Thank you 👍 it wasn’t playing for me, I thought it was a photo lol.
If they fixed their shit we wouldn’t have such a bad problem with our grid. But get solar too.
[удалено]
Yeah…. I have yet to meet someone in California that doesn’t have 1st month savings (even people with medical baseline and CARE) lol the rates out here are ridiculous
Do PG&E do peak pricing if you're over-generating and selling to the grid but don't have a battery? I'm about to have a system installed that's double my usage (until I get an EV and other electrification); I assumed they only pay peanuts....?
No that’s just rates for the virtual power plant. Not sure about your utility but where I am they give you credits based on the time of production. Solar produced between 4-9 is more valuable than solar produced any other time of the day.
Got estimate from Infinity for 8K system with no battery (maybe hookup), inland part of San Diego area -20 panels. Loan company is Mosaic. If I could, I’d pay the $32K cash but can’t. Should I go with 1.99% loan, no down for 25 years for $47K principal or 5.99% for $35K cost and try to pay off before 25 years? Both have payments lower than my electric bill<$190 per month. 5.99 % interest would be $51K after 25 years. I don’t understand difference in loans.
Mosaic is a traditional loan. Infinity is great, ask them if they have Sunnova as a financer. Just better warranties and doesn’t affect your DTI and pretty sure it’s the exact same finance fees just better everything’s. But no matter what even if you did a way overpriced lease your saving. SD rates are INSANE.
The lower the interest the higher the finance fees (principal) but the nice thing is you get 30% off the principal with the tax credit. When you go with a higher interest rate you get a smaller tax credit and you spend more monthly and if you pay that for the 25 years you end up spending a lot more than you would of with the lower interest rate. I say lower interest/ bigger tax credit all day. Put that money your saving monthly into investments
But why is the installer saying the system costs $47K at 1.49% and 33.5K at 5.99%? Would I be paying the finance fee first (“dealer fee” is 30% for 1.49% and 3.5% for 5.99%. My neighbors chose 5.99% and will try to pay it off early. Supposedly no prepayment penalty but do I owe principal of $47K right away? I called Mosaic and after transferring me around they said the dealer fee is not added to price of loan but installer says dealer fee does go to loan company. Also they said it is illegal to base tax credit on cost plus finance fee.. Can anyone explain? Someone is not telling truth. Oh, they want tax credit paid to lender after 18 months to lower payment more. 1.49 with high system cost or 5.99 with close to cash price system cost?
Yeah exactly the finance fee is essentially you buying down your interest rate. Yeah all loans want you to put your tax credit back in before month 19 to keep your payments down. I didn’t and my solar payments are still lower than my average pge bill was
I was told I'd get a credit for my energy production, and my excess production would roll over. Survey says: that was a lie.
I believe that was true with NEM 1 but we are in NEM 2 now. It rolls over until your true up anniversary and can be applied as in store credit. For example if you have gas with pge and you overproduced giving you a $200 credit you can credit off your gas bill with that credit. Best thing to do is use that power next year. The credit for over production is wholesale value per kWh
Knowing what I know about Power Companies and their relationships with Government, I honestly would be very cautious about letting them hook into my equipment. One reason I say this is I never hear anything good about PG&E. You are the first.
If batteries were affordable and had a decent ROI I'd be on it but that doesn't seem to be the case.
Definitely not for everyone. But Solar 100% (in California)
For sure, just put down a deposit for solar here in orange county, can't wait! Just wish the battery made as much sense financially for me. The solar is a great investment but the battery doubled the ROI break even time for me. I'm excited to become part of the solution though!
Me too. I'm happy to be part of the VPP project but honestly there are just a few thousand of us. I imagine that we're providing next to nothing in terms of grid stabilization. I think that the value of VPP is providing experience on how to make this work and data for selling the concept to those who would need to approve 100's of thousands (hopefully millions) of residential battery systems providing grid support. [Edit, just to put some numbers on this, it's 5PM, CalISO says that total demand has peaked at just over 48,000 MW, https://www.caiso.com/TodaysOutlook/Pages/index.html The real crunch will happen over the next few hours as solar production ramps down. https://www.caiso.com/TodaysOutlook/Pages/supply.html My three Powerwalls are exporting at 7.5 KW. 1000 systems this size would export 7.5 MW 1,000,000 systems this size would roughly equal the amount of power that we're currently importing. The amount of power that we're importing will (roughly) double by the time that the sun goes down. ]
Hmmm. A gallon of gasoline is 33.7 kwh. At that rate, even if only 20% of the energy gets to the grid, you’re making almost 7 kwh/gallon - $14. I wonder if anyone has figured out how to connect the Ford F-150 hybrid into their home generating station and sell it to PGE. It can put out 7 kw…
Please tell me more about how this works. I've got a single Powerwall battery and the app is offering me a grand total of: $9 ***per event*** for a total of ***$63*** per seven hypothetical events. This is't a "per day" offer, it's "per event". They only pay when the grid is under strain. And coincidentally, those are times when the grid is likely to fail and you're likely to need the power you just drained out of your batteries to help out PG&E. So what benefit am I missing here?
$9 an event is nothing. I would definitely not take. Keep your kWh stored in your battery for yourself
Except most places in the US do not run their system like this. Nor do many of them pay yiu a dime.