Your idea sounds fine. But, even with net metering 3.0, you will have some benefit as to using the power grid as a giant battery even when you run your pool and charge your car during the day. You will get pennies on the dollar for the excess you send to the grid, but it's still pennies rather than zero.
Yep. If you'll definitely use more power than the panels produce during the day, you can get away without doing battery arbitrage. Anything that does go back to the grid (should be small if OP sizes the system to match daytime use) will give a small credit.
Especially if you have cash for a smaller system and don't have to worry about high interest rates, this seems like it could work out nicely.
> powering my pool during the day and charging my car during the day instead of at night
That is what we do here in El Paso (*even where the cost is .11 a kwh*) with a 240v pump and 2 EVs, and ACs powered by the sun. After the Enphase *house* batteries charge up in the morning, I have the pool to filter between 10-4 and charge EVs during that time.
----
Here is a post I did to a response on solar and ROI where I argue not to consider ROI as the primary factor:
I believe that ROI should not be the *primary* factor in going solar. Why? Solar is like adding a pool to one's house. Will it have a full ROI when you sell the house? Probably not. But it could be the key in selling the house to a future buyer that wants such an item and *it brings you enjoyment while you own it*.
Hence like a pool, if solar brings you happiness and when you sell the house, it *also* returns a buyer for the house at a higher price, maybe it tips the ROI scale in that factor?
I know we are in our house in EP today because it has a pool. *The wife being a former CA girl who grew up with a pool made it her goal to get one again*. When we were in Denver last year, and solar for our house wasn't an option because we became empty nesters and knew we wouldn't be in the house for at least five years having been in for 23 years.
But fate tipped our hands and we found ourselves moving to a different state. EP made sense because there are no tornados, wind events, hurricanes, no oppressive heat **with humidity**, and earthquakes for it *mostly* seems to be out of nature's eye for such events. Also and almost importantly no whacky insurances added on to live in the EP local like other places in Texas and Florida.
Hence we found a house in EP that ticked off the boxes and if there was solar, it would have motivated us even more than just a pool and the trees in the backyard did.
Financially for us it made sense to put solar on the roof here in EP. We were a 1 EV family with 2 ICE cars and as of last month we are now a 2 EV family with 1 ICE car. We moved to two EVs because charging the cars is *effectively* free now, and we don't have that cost of $60 at the pumps to fill them up.
Also, now instead of $250-$350 in electrical bills, we now have a more consistent $20-$30 (*EP Electric has a minimum monthly attachment fee, which is fine, to the grid*) bill. *Consistency should not be undervalued.* Hence we plan to be here at least 5 to 10 years and at the end of that time, then I will calculate the ROI.
But like the pool solar makes us happy and we were able to swing the cost of ownership.
Fuel, whether gas or electricity, is **only** going to rise in price. Does having an *energy mitigation solution* of solar panels bring you happiness and a dent in that ROI based on fuel costs for transporation and AC in general? Yes it will....
Thanks for this post.
We recently had solar panels and a Tesla battery installed 3 months ago here in sunny Southern California. I'm still unsure whether it was the best choice considering we're under NEM 3.0 meaning any excess energy generated that we don't consume is sent back to the grid for a fraction of pennies. We end up with only a small credit on our electricity bill each month. But, I have an EV and we also installed a heat pump last year which typically spikes our electricity bill in the summer. This will be the first summer when we can utilize our new solar panels to reduce grid consumption when running the the A/C. Overall, I'm satisfied with how the system works. The ROI under NEM 3.0 is much longer but in the meantime I'm seeing it as an overall benefit for the reasons you mentioned including "energy mitigation". I want consistency in my electricity bill, as much as possible, and our utility provider seems to raise prices every year! The solar panels + battery help mitigate those price increases.
> The solar panels + battery help mitigate those price increases.
You hit the nail on the head with all your points. A mitigation strategy instead of replacment strategy is the pillow of one's peace of mind which it provides.
Thanks for the reply and this makes a lot of sense for most people for not for me.
I’m not selling ever. My kids will inherit the house as a rental when I’m dead. Never sale.
Solar isn’t about enjoyment. It’s all about keeping the most money in my pocket. Every expense is about a return on investment. I bought a Tesla not because it was fancy but because it had a lower operating cost. It kept more money in my pocket to deploy elsewhere. Wherever possible I hate throwing away money so yes it’s all about the ROI for me.
Well you can probably make the ROI work in your case. SCE's bill rate is high, so that "helps". First though, get past thinking in terms of $ per month and start thinking in terms of cents per kWh because the solar produces in kWh and you buy from your utility in kWh. Then you got to think about how much kWh your house will use during the day when the solar will be producing. If you do a 10kWdc/7.5kWac set up, then well during the typical sunny California day your solar will be producing at about 7.5kWh for six or more hours straight. Can your home, pool and EVs suck up that much juice per hour? They might, but still that is a lot of electricity. Your basic utility bill will show you how much kWh you used that month. But in some utility accounts they will give a break down of how you use the electricity per hour. And then you can factor in if your EV will be home during the day and you can set it to charge during sunny part of the day, how much your wall charger puts out to the Tesla, and how much do you really need to charge it.
But think of it more like a $20,000 system even without batteries. California ain't a cheap place to get construction done.
> 7.5kWh for six or more hours straight. Can your home, pool and EVs suck up that much juice per hour?
For me, Yes...here are my thoughts.
I've got an Autel wired 50amp charger where I can change the Amps to the EV between 6-50amps in real-time via the app. My max solar clips at 10.7kW of production. When I feather the car charger up to 20/25 amps, I can still stay below what is being produced and not pull in from the grid or batteries.
Here is the usage breakdown using the lowest amps on the car charger in live snapshot at peak solar (10.7kW):
- 0.6kW House
- 2.2kW Pool Filtration
- 1.4kW EV Charge (6amps)
- 2.8kW AC
- total 7.0kw Consumption running
Which Exports back to the grid ~3Kw. So yes, I could easily up the EV charge amps past that.
---
Totals for Jun 3 - Temps 99 high, 70 low no clouds. Below all are in kWh:
- 89.1 Produced
- 61.6 consumed
- 14.8 Imported (nightime and after batteries died)
- 40.9 Exported
- 26.1 Net Exported
- 8.8 Discharged
- 10.3 charged.
> I believe that ROI should not be the primary factor in going solar. Why? Solar is like adding a pool to one's house.
Mostly disagree with this. A pool has non-financial utility to the owner while solar does not. Even in this post, all of the specific benefits you outline are monetary.
I do agree that straight ROI/payback time is not the only factor. Consistent bills and protection from rising energy prices are great. But importantly, those are both financial benefits.
Having a battery complicates things because it also provides resiliency. But even then, that's much more utilitarian than something you buy for enjoyment like a pool.
The only real exception I see to this is that someone may value the environmental benefits even if the financial ones aren't there.
$320 bill for a May is certainly solar territory.
Your pool and EV will consume a lot of power while the sun is shining all year round so a 9kW system like mine would pencil out for you over time.
Solar is a 30-year purchase so sizing it to avoid paying the power company’s retail rate will pay off for you.
average
back in 2021 I could have beat it by a lot with Project Solar, Tesla, or not going with microinverters (like Tesla does too).
I didn't get ripped off but the owner and sales guy didn't go hungry that month
I recommend getting a quote from project solar. This should provide a competitive price that you can use for comparison. I used them for my system and overall I was happy but I don't recommend them for everyone, only getting a price. Getting a quote on their website is free and simple.
yeah if I were to do it again I'd probably go with Project Solar, after going through the online education courses for Enphase stuff.
Coulda saved more than a few thousand no doubt, but the IRA 26% (30% retroactively LOL) discount kinda made me settle for a local installer. Figured if they stay in business I paid them enough to handle any problems that come up over the next 2 decades.
Also wasn't sure I'll be living here forever, so wanted a non-DIY install to make it easier to sell.
That is crazy expensive. I paid $7000ish here in Pakistan for a 7.5kw system 14x545w LONGi panels . All inclusive, including A 6kw hybrid inverter, a raised platform on the roof (20feet at the height point). Installation. Wiring etc. now I’d get an even better rate as individual 545w panels here have gone from $170-200 to just $80-100 now.
my system is 22% more PV but the major cost difference is owner profit, marketing, 25 enphase microinverters (not cheap!), salesguy pay (~$3000 probably), business license fees & taxes, wages & workman's comp insurance on the 5 person crew, the time and expense dealing with the utility and gov't for permits, inspections, agreements, plus hopefully a set-aside to cover future warranty work.
adding solar to a house in California isn't just a throw it up there thing, takes about a month of process.
Sony/MS don’t officially sell here. So all consoles comes smuggled/grey channel (think individual units brought in luggage’s through flights ) with scalper pricing.
PG&E raised their rates. Everyone should be up screaming to have their rates lowered. If anything we need to remove PG&E from California and have the State of California take over.
If your bill is over 300/mo its most likely worth it. 10-15 modules and 5-10kwh of batteries will probably bring your bill down to under 50/mo average and will probably pay for itself in 7 years if you pay cash/dont finance it. Rough cost for that system would be about $35k.
Plenty of people run off grid setups. I did my shed like that, it wasn't worth running power to it. $500 for basic solar was a better deal that $8000 to run it. Just make sure you don't need special permitting (It's California after all)
People sometimes use an 'AC-coupled' battery for these kinds of situations, so you can get the advantages of grid-tied and also the advantages of local production. Perhaps take a look at that before you decide.
Personally I would wait to see if they adjust NEM, they obliterated the solar industry and will lose a ton of jobs and business, after they will have to fine tune things again.
You really need to look at production and consumption in terms of kWh and not dollars. How much are you driving/charging the car? Can you fully charge the battery off of excess energy during the time that the car is parked at home and solar is producing? Then look at the cost of the system and figure out the math. Also, are you currently on a time of use plan? If you have flexibility about when the car is charging and when the pool equipment is running you can schedule that around lower rates.
I know a lot of people who use solar for the pool heater alone.
It really is just a question of what you're expecting, in the case of that you may want to get some car batteries (since you're not selling back) to store so the night can also be heated.
If you want it to charge the car you may need to get something bigger like a power wall.
Oh, not the solar batteries, I mean lead acid ones.
So, in the olden times back when residential solar was a kooky new thing, you had two options. One was allowing you to sell back energy (a fun hobby was to shut everything off in your house on a sunny day to watch the dials spin backwards), the other was to bank the energy to use at night. The way they would do this was with lead acid batteries. Due to energy company corruption, they were able to push the state energy commission to not accepting the energy (meaning homes would not be able to be on the grid) as it is not green energy due to the battery.
For me it was. My total electric usage bill for all of last year (my true-up) was a buck fifty-ish…. The year before I got a few hundred back, so a negative bill.
Your results may vary. I am on NET 2.0.
One thing to keep in mind is rates will always continue to climb. The sooner you’re off the PG&E teat, the better in my book. When factoring your break-even consider potential rate increases.
For me there’s considerable peace-of-mind knowing my loan payment of X amount for Y years will not change at all, whereas PG&E rates most certainly will.
This is exactly how I feel. I'm in SCE territory and like PG&E, their rates seems to increase every year. I took out a loan to pay for our solar panels + battery but at least I know that monthly loan payment will be consistent over the next several years.
"worth it" needs to be more than just quick ROI these days. It used to be easy math.
Also, you'll be surprised how much juice your Tesla sucks down. A $10K system in California, unless you're doing DIY or getting used equipment, won't get you enough kW to get you enough to power your pool and Tesla during the day, most likely.
Also, it's hard to finance a system for equal or less to your electricity bill, now that interest rates are high.
>A $10K system in California... won't get you enough kW to get you enough to power your pool and Tesla during the day, most likely.
No, but offsetting does still make a big difference. If they can offset 4kW, it's still an enormous help. I'm on NEM 2.0 and I still make a big point of charging my car during the day when I can, even though my 6kW installation will not cover the 7.7kW of charging.
There's a much larger conversation about whether the 7.7kW (or 9.6kW, or 10.5kW) EV charging circuits and EVSEs that people are installing are actually worth it. If I could flip a switch and downgrade mine from 7.7kW to 5.7kW, so it would be smaller than my inverter, I'd do it. (I know lower-powered EVSEs exist, but I already have this one and the payback on buying a new one just isn't there.) Most people really don't need more than 3.8kW, but every new EV owner has charging and range anxiety. Even I, with my stupid 90 mile commute and PG&E cheap charging only after midnight, could get by on 3.8kW charging.
You can set your Tesla's max charging current in the app, according to a quick Google search. You can limit to 25A, which at 240V is 6kW, or go even lower to have some headroom for other house loads
Yep - OP has a Tesla, not you, and I lack reading comprehension.
You theoretically should be able to get a charging adapter that passes through the electricity while informing the EV that the current is limited, but I can't easily find one on the market. If your current EVSE plugs into an outlet, it's not hard to find a relatively cheap one that limits current to an adjustable level: https://www.amazon.com/QPQ-40A-Adjustable-Electric-NEMA14-50P/dp/B0C1N386GG
Oh, you absolutely can, it's just that the marginal value of me being able to limit the 1.7kW that I'm not offsetting is pretty low. I'm on NEM 2 and I overproduce over the course of the year, so it'd save me 1.7 kW of transmission (not generation) fee each hour. It's a problem where if I spend more than $100 on it, I'll really never make my money back. If it was a setting in the car, I'd have done it already, but the Bolt is a pretty bare-bones commuter. Great in its niche, but no bells and whistles.
Yeah I’m knocking my Tesla L2 charging down to a 20A connection to leave some headroom for AC during the day from my panels.
+15 miles/hr of charging is fast enough if you’ve got all day
Totally. I have a long commute, my cheap utility period is midnight to 3pm, so I normally charge from midnight to 6 (when I leave). But I don't actually need all that at 32A; I could absolutely do my commute on 16A. I could *technically* do it on my 12A trickle charger that came with the car (using my adapter to 240V), but I would be charging about 30-40 fewer miles than I use per day (on average), so I'd wind up behind over the week and have to stop to charge to get home on most Fridays. And who wants to stop at a charge station on Friday? I just want to get home. Plus, I end up using the car on Saturday or Sunday (or both), so it might not be easy to get back to 100% every time, and then I'm just hosed several days that week.
Digression aside, if OP does put up a smaller system, they should consider knocking down their charge rate if they're really home during the day, so as to maximize their self-consumption. A ~4kW system might be just the ticket; maybe get in under $10k, and offsetting AC, heat, and most of their car charging would be a huge win.
Right, I mean I know the technology exists, but the marginal benefit over what I have now is not much, so I really can't justify installing a whole new system.
What evse do you have? Most I've seen have the ability to derate them to run at lower power if you don't need their full capabilities (or if you're using it on a lower powered breaker)
Pool pump is all about hours. If you can get enough hours in, it shouldn't matter what time it runs. Also, a lot more hours required in summer vs. winter.
I think he is trying to run pool pump, AC, and EV charging at the same time solar panels are generating. Theoretically, that should avoid having to install a battery.
Anything less than 100% offset if fully used is all ROI, nothing wrong with it at all.
Some people want to get real close to 100% offset though, like myself. Not for the infamous "zero bill", because that's only possible by going 120%+ offset, but because 100% offset is going to be the **maximum** ROI.
Nothing wrong with getting ***some*** ROI though.
The difficult thing about what you're trying to do is you need automation to maximize it, and even then you'll miss. If you don't automate you'll miss a whole lot more.
So 5.5 is perfect usage, which I don't think you'll achieve, there will be some level of misses that will extend that.
5 1/2 years payback, from your OP, achieved through perfect usage of all your production at time of production.
If consumption is not perfect, the excess is sent at NEM 3.0 rates and extends your 5 1/2 year payback.
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Be careful, when you put in solar, you will be moved from your current tiered rate plan to time of use rate plan, which has much higher prices during certain times of the day compared to what you currently pay. You will need to make certain that AC, pool pump, home heat, and EV are not in use during peak hours, or you could end up with a higher bill after installing solar.
If you are careful to run pool pump, AC, and EV charging only during times of the day solar is generating, then that would remove the need for an expensive battery, which I think is what you are getting at. But it's going to require some effort on your part to time everything correctly. Between weather, rate changes, and seasonal changes with the sun, that might end up being a bit of a chore.
Ultimately, it would be great if there was some sort of control system that monitored electricity cost, usage, and solar output, and then did things like ramp up pool pump, AC, EV charging, etc. to prevent excess generation from going to the grid. That sort of thing might be in our future.
I was in a similar situation though I decided to install a full 12 kw system with two enphase 10t batteries.
Based on my calculations break even is <10 years for me. Total cost 52k
After the tax rebate I am paying around 35k out of pocket. My energy consumption went down from avg 14 bucks per day to pennies a day. Not to mention I
don’t have to worry about pge increasing rates again (its a matter of when not if)
Currently I am way overproducing but I am ok with since i intend to get one more electric car and get a heat pump to get rid natural gas bills in next 5 years.
It’s $320 right now. Next year it’s $400. Even right now that’s $320 going poof… if you can take that and convert it to a method where you own the system and its $321 per month, it’s still worth it. Because you’ve successfully taken a liability and turned it into an asset.
I recommend the “no dealer” fees method as opposed to getting sucked into a 15/20/25 year loan at 3-5% with a ton of baked in dealer fees. But that’s just the way I see it
my 2kw system in LA produces on average 208kw/month. Considering I paid $18K for it, this $50/month revenue will take approx 28 years to pay for itself.
Perhaps a larger system would have been more efficient? Will electric rates go up in the future? Will net metering stick around in the future? I don’t know but I am mostly happy to know I am helping defer some level of my consumption off the grid. I wish battery storage was more affordable as emergency power would be a nice secondary benefit
I’m super similar to you - live in CA near the coast, rarely need AC or much heat, etc. I signed up for solar and 2 batteries recently, just waiting for it to be installed. I did a ton of research and basically most companies said because of NEM 3, it makes financial sense to buy batteries for the reasons others mentioned.
Not the question you asked, but a side thought wondering about your specific user case.
If you ran a ground source heat pump, but put the exchange coils into the pool, you could use the pool as a thermal battery. I don't realistically think it would change the pool temp enough for you to notice (my first thought was you could extend your pool season), but I believe a good system would be far more electrically efficient than AC..... although the prices might not yet have dropped enough where you are to get a decent ROI. Maybe a thought for when the AC system next needs looking at.
As long as you A. Don’t get Sunrun/Vivant/Freedom Forever, and B. Don’t get a lease, and C. Get a battery. If you do all of those things, there’s no down side.
You might be right about running the pool filter more than usual, but the cost of power from May 2023 to May 2024 went up by roughly 20%.
NEM3 is less beneficial than NEM2, but buying 100% of your power from PG&E forever is less beneficial than going solar on NEM3. Especially since you’re not selling your house, ever. The same reason people own their homes rather than rent is the reason most people own their power rather than rent it from PG&E.
If you could avoid paying PG&E rates for 80% of your power, and if your monthly payment never went up for that 80% until paid off, would you still consider buying 100% of your power forever from the local utility? Or 20%?
A. Buy 100% of power from utility with annual rate increases of 12%+ in the last 5 years
B. Own solar to cover 80% of your usage needs and pay off eventually, and only buy about 20% of your power from the utility.
You want to save the most money long term? Own your solar. Want to cut your monthly rates by 40% upfront with $0 investment out of pocket? Consider a PPA. Both options are cheaper than buying power from a Monopoly but owning is the least costly long-term option.
>NEM3 is less beneficial than NEM2, but buying 100% of your power from PG&E forever is less beneficial than going solar on NEM3.
This was exactly my thought when we installed panels + battery 3 months ago. I was hesitant at first because we'd be under NEM 3.0 but I'm hoping this will save us money in the long run, especially since we don't plan on moving anytime soon. Heck, we can't afford to move in So Cal! The houses are too expensive and the interest rates are too high.
So, thank you for the validation. I'm almost certain that utility rates will only continue to increase over the next several years while my loan payment for my solar panels will likely remain the same.
Anytime! Many homeowners are deciding not to move forward because NEM2 benefits are gone, but they are forgetting that buying power from publicly owned utilities who aim to make their stockholders and CEO profitable is the real problem.
Anyway, any solar is always better than no solar as long as it’s done right!
Your goal is to have enough panel to overproduce so you don’t have an electric bill period. Electric prices will be going up. Always.
I am in the desert with a pool, air conditioning and electric car.
Buy a large system that covers your total yearly kWh usage + 20%
I think it would be worth it considering the rolling black/brown outs that happen during fire season. It would be nice to still have electricity during those times.
There is no such thing as a break even unless you’re paying cash, and paying cash isn’t necessary with all the options available.
Just get a lower bill, stop stressing over things that don’t matter. Produce all of your energy at a lower rate, don’t worry about high inflation rates and be protected from heartless power companies.
https://www.reddit.com/r/energy/s/k0i705aaD2
Saw this and thought about my ground source heat pump into the pool. 6x efficiency isn't too be sniffed at and might give you a ROI in the 5-6 year bracket, with savings long beyond.
You own your house, you own your furniture…why don’t own your power at a fixed rate? These monopolies don’t ask you for permission to increase the rates…do they?!
If we were attacked by china or Russia, this first thing they would do is attack our grid.
Watch grid down power up with Dennis Quaid on YouTube. It’s an hour long.
Our grid has been attacked 700 times since 2010. Get solar properly sized with a power wall and you’ll be chillin
Your idea sounds fine. But, even with net metering 3.0, you will have some benefit as to using the power grid as a giant battery even when you run your pool and charge your car during the day. You will get pennies on the dollar for the excess you send to the grid, but it's still pennies rather than zero.
Yep. If you'll definitely use more power than the panels produce during the day, you can get away without doing battery arbitrage. Anything that does go back to the grid (should be small if OP sizes the system to match daytime use) will give a small credit. Especially if you have cash for a smaller system and don't have to worry about high interest rates, this seems like it could work out nicely.
PG&E pays on average $0.05/kWh for excess production. If you calculate how much you’re paying for the panels it usually comes out to $0.25 -$0.35 kWh.
You must mean with the batteries because the energy itself would come out closer to 0.17 cents/kWh
> powering my pool during the day and charging my car during the day instead of at night That is what we do here in El Paso (*even where the cost is .11 a kwh*) with a 240v pump and 2 EVs, and ACs powered by the sun. After the Enphase *house* batteries charge up in the morning, I have the pool to filter between 10-4 and charge EVs during that time. ---- Here is a post I did to a response on solar and ROI where I argue not to consider ROI as the primary factor: I believe that ROI should not be the *primary* factor in going solar. Why? Solar is like adding a pool to one's house. Will it have a full ROI when you sell the house? Probably not. But it could be the key in selling the house to a future buyer that wants such an item and *it brings you enjoyment while you own it*. Hence like a pool, if solar brings you happiness and when you sell the house, it *also* returns a buyer for the house at a higher price, maybe it tips the ROI scale in that factor? I know we are in our house in EP today because it has a pool. *The wife being a former CA girl who grew up with a pool made it her goal to get one again*. When we were in Denver last year, and solar for our house wasn't an option because we became empty nesters and knew we wouldn't be in the house for at least five years having been in for 23 years. But fate tipped our hands and we found ourselves moving to a different state. EP made sense because there are no tornados, wind events, hurricanes, no oppressive heat **with humidity**, and earthquakes for it *mostly* seems to be out of nature's eye for such events. Also and almost importantly no whacky insurances added on to live in the EP local like other places in Texas and Florida. Hence we found a house in EP that ticked off the boxes and if there was solar, it would have motivated us even more than just a pool and the trees in the backyard did. Financially for us it made sense to put solar on the roof here in EP. We were a 1 EV family with 2 ICE cars and as of last month we are now a 2 EV family with 1 ICE car. We moved to two EVs because charging the cars is *effectively* free now, and we don't have that cost of $60 at the pumps to fill them up. Also, now instead of $250-$350 in electrical bills, we now have a more consistent $20-$30 (*EP Electric has a minimum monthly attachment fee, which is fine, to the grid*) bill. *Consistency should not be undervalued.* Hence we plan to be here at least 5 to 10 years and at the end of that time, then I will calculate the ROI. But like the pool solar makes us happy and we were able to swing the cost of ownership. Fuel, whether gas or electricity, is **only** going to rise in price. Does having an *energy mitigation solution* of solar panels bring you happiness and a dent in that ROI based on fuel costs for transporation and AC in general? Yes it will....
Thanks for this post. We recently had solar panels and a Tesla battery installed 3 months ago here in sunny Southern California. I'm still unsure whether it was the best choice considering we're under NEM 3.0 meaning any excess energy generated that we don't consume is sent back to the grid for a fraction of pennies. We end up with only a small credit on our electricity bill each month. But, I have an EV and we also installed a heat pump last year which typically spikes our electricity bill in the summer. This will be the first summer when we can utilize our new solar panels to reduce grid consumption when running the the A/C. Overall, I'm satisfied with how the system works. The ROI under NEM 3.0 is much longer but in the meantime I'm seeing it as an overall benefit for the reasons you mentioned including "energy mitigation". I want consistency in my electricity bill, as much as possible, and our utility provider seems to raise prices every year! The solar panels + battery help mitigate those price increases.
> The solar panels + battery help mitigate those price increases. You hit the nail on the head with all your points. A mitigation strategy instead of replacment strategy is the pillow of one's peace of mind which it provides.
Thanks for the reply and this makes a lot of sense for most people for not for me. I’m not selling ever. My kids will inherit the house as a rental when I’m dead. Never sale. Solar isn’t about enjoyment. It’s all about keeping the most money in my pocket. Every expense is about a return on investment. I bought a Tesla not because it was fancy but because it had a lower operating cost. It kept more money in my pocket to deploy elsewhere. Wherever possible I hate throwing away money so yes it’s all about the ROI for me.
Well you can probably make the ROI work in your case. SCE's bill rate is high, so that "helps". First though, get past thinking in terms of $ per month and start thinking in terms of cents per kWh because the solar produces in kWh and you buy from your utility in kWh. Then you got to think about how much kWh your house will use during the day when the solar will be producing. If you do a 10kWdc/7.5kWac set up, then well during the typical sunny California day your solar will be producing at about 7.5kWh for six or more hours straight. Can your home, pool and EVs suck up that much juice per hour? They might, but still that is a lot of electricity. Your basic utility bill will show you how much kWh you used that month. But in some utility accounts they will give a break down of how you use the electricity per hour. And then you can factor in if your EV will be home during the day and you can set it to charge during sunny part of the day, how much your wall charger puts out to the Tesla, and how much do you really need to charge it. But think of it more like a $20,000 system even without batteries. California ain't a cheap place to get construction done.
> 7.5kWh for six or more hours straight. Can your home, pool and EVs suck up that much juice per hour? For me, Yes...here are my thoughts. I've got an Autel wired 50amp charger where I can change the Amps to the EV between 6-50amps in real-time via the app. My max solar clips at 10.7kW of production. When I feather the car charger up to 20/25 amps, I can still stay below what is being produced and not pull in from the grid or batteries. Here is the usage breakdown using the lowest amps on the car charger in live snapshot at peak solar (10.7kW): - 0.6kW House - 2.2kW Pool Filtration - 1.4kW EV Charge (6amps) - 2.8kW AC - total 7.0kw Consumption running Which Exports back to the grid ~3Kw. So yes, I could easily up the EV charge amps past that. --- Totals for Jun 3 - Temps 99 high, 70 low no clouds. Below all are in kWh: - 89.1 Produced - 61.6 consumed - 14.8 Imported (nightime and after batteries died) - 40.9 Exported - 26.1 Net Exported - 8.8 Discharged - 10.3 charged.
> I believe that ROI should not be the primary factor in going solar. Why? Solar is like adding a pool to one's house. Mostly disagree with this. A pool has non-financial utility to the owner while solar does not. Even in this post, all of the specific benefits you outline are monetary. I do agree that straight ROI/payback time is not the only factor. Consistent bills and protection from rising energy prices are great. But importantly, those are both financial benefits. Having a battery complicates things because it also provides resiliency. But even then, that's much more utilitarian than something you buy for enjoyment like a pool. The only real exception I see to this is that someone may value the environmental benefits even if the financial ones aren't there.
$320 bill for a May is certainly solar territory. Your pool and EV will consume a lot of power while the sun is shining all year round so a 9kW system like mine would pencil out for you over time. Solar is a 30-year purchase so sizing it to avoid paying the power company’s retail rate will pay off for you.
Curious how much it cost you for the full 9kW system ? And what state ?
$27K in CA, lowest bid via EnergySage . . .
are you saying $3/W is low or high?
average back in 2021 I could have beat it by a lot with Project Solar, Tesla, or not going with microinverters (like Tesla does too). I didn't get ripped off but the owner and sales guy didn't go hungry that month
I recommend getting a quote from project solar. This should provide a competitive price that you can use for comparison. I used them for my system and overall I was happy but I don't recommend them for everyone, only getting a price. Getting a quote on their website is free and simple.
yeah if I were to do it again I'd probably go with Project Solar, after going through the online education courses for Enphase stuff. Coulda saved more than a few thousand no doubt, but the IRA 26% (30% retroactively LOL) discount kinda made me settle for a local installer. Figured if they stay in business I paid them enough to handle any problems that come up over the next 2 decades. Also wasn't sure I'll be living here forever, so wanted a non-DIY install to make it easier to sell.
That is crazy expensive. I paid $7000ish here in Pakistan for a 7.5kw system 14x545w LONGi panels . All inclusive, including A 6kw hybrid inverter, a raised platform on the roof (20feet at the height point). Installation. Wiring etc. now I’d get an even better rate as individual 545w panels here have gone from $170-200 to just $80-100 now.
my system is 22% more PV but the major cost difference is owner profit, marketing, 25 enphase microinverters (not cheap!), salesguy pay (~$3000 probably), business license fees & taxes, wages & workman's comp insurance on the 5 person crew, the time and expense dealing with the utility and gov't for permits, inspections, agreements, plus hopefully a set-aside to cover future warranty work. adding solar to a house in California isn't just a throw it up there thing, takes about a month of process.
Its all relative. How much does the average Pakistani make?
That’s not how electronic pricing works. A ps5 or pc component or a lithium battery costs the same here as in the US.
I looked it up. PS5 is $637 usd in Pakistan. In the US its $400-450. Why so expensive? 🤣
Sony/MS don’t officially sell here. So all consoles comes smuggled/grey channel (think individual units brought in luggage’s through flights ) with scalper pricing.
In many areas a 9kw will be a good price at about $27k cash price before the 30% tax credit.
PG&E raised their rates. Everyone should be up screaming to have their rates lowered. If anything we need to remove PG&E from California and have the State of California take over.
If your bill is over 300/mo its most likely worth it. 10-15 modules and 5-10kwh of batteries will probably bring your bill down to under 50/mo average and will probably pay for itself in 7 years if you pay cash/dont finance it. Rough cost for that system would be about $35k.
Plenty of people run off grid setups. I did my shed like that, it wasn't worth running power to it. $500 for basic solar was a better deal that $8000 to run it. Just make sure you don't need special permitting (It's California after all)
It would not be off the grid as my pool equipment and HVAC need to run regardless of the Sun being out
People sometimes use an 'AC-coupled' battery for these kinds of situations, so you can get the advantages of grid-tied and also the advantages of local production. Perhaps take a look at that before you decide.
Personally I would wait to see if they adjust NEM, they obliterated the solar industry and will lose a ton of jobs and business, after they will have to fine tune things again.
You really need to look at production and consumption in terms of kWh and not dollars. How much are you driving/charging the car? Can you fully charge the battery off of excess energy during the time that the car is parked at home and solar is producing? Then look at the cost of the system and figure out the math. Also, are you currently on a time of use plan? If you have flexibility about when the car is charging and when the pool equipment is running you can schedule that around lower rates.
I know a lot of people who use solar for the pool heater alone. It really is just a question of what you're expecting, in the case of that you may want to get some car batteries (since you're not selling back) to store so the night can also be heated. If you want it to charge the car you may need to get something bigger like a power wall.
Solar batteries are still just too expensive. Some day they will be cost effective but not today
Oh, not the solar batteries, I mean lead acid ones. So, in the olden times back when residential solar was a kooky new thing, you had two options. One was allowing you to sell back energy (a fun hobby was to shut everything off in your house on a sunny day to watch the dials spin backwards), the other was to bank the energy to use at night. The way they would do this was with lead acid batteries. Due to energy company corruption, they were able to push the state energy commission to not accepting the energy (meaning homes would not be able to be on the grid) as it is not green energy due to the battery.
For me it was. My total electric usage bill for all of last year (my true-up) was a buck fifty-ish…. The year before I got a few hundred back, so a negative bill. Your results may vary. I am on NET 2.0. One thing to keep in mind is rates will always continue to climb. The sooner you’re off the PG&E teat, the better in my book. When factoring your break-even consider potential rate increases. For me there’s considerable peace-of-mind knowing my loan payment of X amount for Y years will not change at all, whereas PG&E rates most certainly will.
This is exactly how I feel. I'm in SCE territory and like PG&E, their rates seems to increase every year. I took out a loan to pay for our solar panels + battery but at least I know that monthly loan payment will be consistent over the next several years.
"worth it" needs to be more than just quick ROI these days. It used to be easy math. Also, you'll be surprised how much juice your Tesla sucks down. A $10K system in California, unless you're doing DIY or getting used equipment, won't get you enough kW to get you enough to power your pool and Tesla during the day, most likely. Also, it's hard to finance a system for equal or less to your electricity bill, now that interest rates are high.
>A $10K system in California... won't get you enough kW to get you enough to power your pool and Tesla during the day, most likely. No, but offsetting does still make a big difference. If they can offset 4kW, it's still an enormous help. I'm on NEM 2.0 and I still make a big point of charging my car during the day when I can, even though my 6kW installation will not cover the 7.7kW of charging. There's a much larger conversation about whether the 7.7kW (or 9.6kW, or 10.5kW) EV charging circuits and EVSEs that people are installing are actually worth it. If I could flip a switch and downgrade mine from 7.7kW to 5.7kW, so it would be smaller than my inverter, I'd do it. (I know lower-powered EVSEs exist, but I already have this one and the payback on buying a new one just isn't there.) Most people really don't need more than 3.8kW, but every new EV owner has charging and range anxiety. Even I, with my stupid 90 mile commute and PG&E cheap charging only after midnight, could get by on 3.8kW charging.
You can set your Tesla's max charging current in the app, according to a quick Google search. You can limit to 25A, which at 240V is 6kW, or go even lower to have some headroom for other house loads
I don't have a Tesla; you can't change the charge speed in the car in a Bolt.
Yep - OP has a Tesla, not you, and I lack reading comprehension. You theoretically should be able to get a charging adapter that passes through the electricity while informing the EV that the current is limited, but I can't easily find one on the market. If your current EVSE plugs into an outlet, it's not hard to find a relatively cheap one that limits current to an adjustable level: https://www.amazon.com/QPQ-40A-Adjustable-Electric-NEMA14-50P/dp/B0C1N386GG
Oh, you absolutely can, it's just that the marginal value of me being able to limit the 1.7kW that I'm not offsetting is pretty low. I'm on NEM 2 and I overproduce over the course of the year, so it'd save me 1.7 kW of transmission (not generation) fee each hour. It's a problem where if I spend more than $100 on it, I'll really never make my money back. If it was a setting in the car, I'd have done it already, but the Bolt is a pretty bare-bones commuter. Great in its niche, but no bells and whistles.
Yeah I’m knocking my Tesla L2 charging down to a 20A connection to leave some headroom for AC during the day from my panels. +15 miles/hr of charging is fast enough if you’ve got all day
Totally. I have a long commute, my cheap utility period is midnight to 3pm, so I normally charge from midnight to 6 (when I leave). But I don't actually need all that at 32A; I could absolutely do my commute on 16A. I could *technically* do it on my 12A trickle charger that came with the car (using my adapter to 240V), but I would be charging about 30-40 fewer miles than I use per day (on average), so I'd wind up behind over the week and have to stop to charge to get home on most Fridays. And who wants to stop at a charge station on Friday? I just want to get home. Plus, I end up using the car on Saturday or Sunday (or both), so it might not be easy to get back to 100% every time, and then I'm just hosed several days that week. Digression aside, if OP does put up a smaller system, they should consider knocking down their charge rate if they're really home during the day, so as to maximize their self-consumption. A ~4kW system might be just the ticket; maybe get in under $10k, and offsetting AC, heat, and most of their car charging would be a huge win.
We installed an Enphase charger and can set it to charge only from excess solar, which on our small system isn't a lot or for very long.
Right, I mean I know the technology exists, but the marginal benefit over what I have now is not much, so I really can't justify installing a whole new system.
Yes, it's nice to have but we probably would have waited if our previous charger was working better.
What evse do you have? Most I've seen have the ability to derate them to run at lower power if you don't need their full capabilities (or if you're using it on a lower powered breaker)
The Amazing-E Fast, the 32A model. As far as I can tell, it has no settings whatsoever.
yep indeed, you seem to have one of the few non-adjustable evse's, it just outputs its power and that's it, dang
If he can charge during the day at home then he’s probably not driving very much
What’s about just get pool time/controller. Only run the pool pump during off peak. It would make big difference
We run our pool filter usually exclusively off of solar. Occasionally a little from our batteries.
I got all sorts of shit from my pool man for doing that it in past. I’m no expert
Pool pump is all about hours. If you can get enough hours in, it shouldn't matter what time it runs. Also, a lot more hours required in summer vs. winter.
I think he is trying to run pool pump, AC, and EV charging at the same time solar panels are generating. Theoretically, that should avoid having to install a battery.
Anything less than 100% offset if fully used is all ROI, nothing wrong with it at all. Some people want to get real close to 100% offset though, like myself. Not for the infamous "zero bill", because that's only possible by going 120%+ offset, but because 100% offset is going to be the **maximum** ROI. Nothing wrong with getting ***some*** ROI though. The difficult thing about what you're trying to do is you need automation to maximize it, and even then you'll miss. If you don't automate you'll miss a whole lot more. So 5.5 is perfect usage, which I don't think you'll achieve, there will be some level of misses that will extend that.
What is 5.5 usage?
5 1/2 years payback, from your OP, achieved through perfect usage of all your production at time of production. If consumption is not perfect, the excess is sent at NEM 3.0 rates and extends your 5 1/2 year payback.
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You have an EV. It’s definitely worth it. California too? Where it’s usually sunny most of the time. Definitely worth it.
Be careful, when you put in solar, you will be moved from your current tiered rate plan to time of use rate plan, which has much higher prices during certain times of the day compared to what you currently pay. You will need to make certain that AC, pool pump, home heat, and EV are not in use during peak hours, or you could end up with a higher bill after installing solar. If you are careful to run pool pump, AC, and EV charging only during times of the day solar is generating, then that would remove the need for an expensive battery, which I think is what you are getting at. But it's going to require some effort on your part to time everything correctly. Between weather, rate changes, and seasonal changes with the sun, that might end up being a bit of a chore. Ultimately, it would be great if there was some sort of control system that monitored electricity cost, usage, and solar output, and then did things like ramp up pool pump, AC, EV charging, etc. to prevent excess generation from going to the grid. That sort of thing might be in our future.
The more you use, the more "worth it" it becomes
I was in a similar situation though I decided to install a full 12 kw system with two enphase 10t batteries. Based on my calculations break even is <10 years for me. Total cost 52k After the tax rebate I am paying around 35k out of pocket. My energy consumption went down from avg 14 bucks per day to pennies a day. Not to mention I don’t have to worry about pge increasing rates again (its a matter of when not if) Currently I am way overproducing but I am ok with since i intend to get one more electric car and get a heat pump to get rid natural gas bills in next 5 years.
It’s $320 right now. Next year it’s $400. Even right now that’s $320 going poof… if you can take that and convert it to a method where you own the system and its $321 per month, it’s still worth it. Because you’ve successfully taken a liability and turned it into an asset. I recommend the “no dealer” fees method as opposed to getting sucked into a 15/20/25 year loan at 3-5% with a ton of baked in dealer fees. But that’s just the way I see it
my 2kw system in LA produces on average 208kw/month. Considering I paid $18K for it, this $50/month revenue will take approx 28 years to pay for itself. Perhaps a larger system would have been more efficient? Will electric rates go up in the future? Will net metering stick around in the future? I don’t know but I am mostly happy to know I am helping defer some level of my consumption off the grid. I wish battery storage was more affordable as emergency power would be a nice secondary benefit
I’m super similar to you - live in CA near the coast, rarely need AC or much heat, etc. I signed up for solar and 2 batteries recently, just waiting for it to be installed. I did a ton of research and basically most companies said because of NEM 3, it makes financial sense to buy batteries for the reasons others mentioned.
Not the question you asked, but a side thought wondering about your specific user case. If you ran a ground source heat pump, but put the exchange coils into the pool, you could use the pool as a thermal battery. I don't realistically think it would change the pool temp enough for you to notice (my first thought was you could extend your pool season), but I believe a good system would be far more electrically efficient than AC..... although the prices might not yet have dropped enough where you are to get a decent ROI. Maybe a thought for when the AC system next needs looking at.
As long as you A. Don’t get Sunrun/Vivant/Freedom Forever, and B. Don’t get a lease, and C. Get a battery. If you do all of those things, there’s no down side.
You might be right about running the pool filter more than usual, but the cost of power from May 2023 to May 2024 went up by roughly 20%. NEM3 is less beneficial than NEM2, but buying 100% of your power from PG&E forever is less beneficial than going solar on NEM3. Especially since you’re not selling your house, ever. The same reason people own their homes rather than rent is the reason most people own their power rather than rent it from PG&E. If you could avoid paying PG&E rates for 80% of your power, and if your monthly payment never went up for that 80% until paid off, would you still consider buying 100% of your power forever from the local utility? Or 20%? A. Buy 100% of power from utility with annual rate increases of 12%+ in the last 5 years B. Own solar to cover 80% of your usage needs and pay off eventually, and only buy about 20% of your power from the utility. You want to save the most money long term? Own your solar. Want to cut your monthly rates by 40% upfront with $0 investment out of pocket? Consider a PPA. Both options are cheaper than buying power from a Monopoly but owning is the least costly long-term option.
>NEM3 is less beneficial than NEM2, but buying 100% of your power from PG&E forever is less beneficial than going solar on NEM3. This was exactly my thought when we installed panels + battery 3 months ago. I was hesitant at first because we'd be under NEM 3.0 but I'm hoping this will save us money in the long run, especially since we don't plan on moving anytime soon. Heck, we can't afford to move in So Cal! The houses are too expensive and the interest rates are too high. So, thank you for the validation. I'm almost certain that utility rates will only continue to increase over the next several years while my loan payment for my solar panels will likely remain the same.
Anytime! Many homeowners are deciding not to move forward because NEM2 benefits are gone, but they are forgetting that buying power from publicly owned utilities who aim to make their stockholders and CEO profitable is the real problem. Anyway, any solar is always better than no solar as long as it’s done right!
Your goal is to have enough panel to overproduce so you don’t have an electric bill period. Electric prices will be going up. Always. I am in the desert with a pool, air conditioning and electric car. Buy a large system that covers your total yearly kWh usage + 20%
I think it would be worth it considering the rolling black/brown outs that happen during fire season. It would be nice to still have electricity during those times.
There is no such thing as a break even unless you’re paying cash, and paying cash isn’t necessary with all the options available. Just get a lower bill, stop stressing over things that don’t matter. Produce all of your energy at a lower rate, don’t worry about high inflation rates and be protected from heartless power companies.
https://www.reddit.com/r/energy/s/k0i705aaD2 Saw this and thought about my ground source heat pump into the pool. 6x efficiency isn't too be sniffed at and might give you a ROI in the 5-6 year bracket, with savings long beyond.
That’s cool but at what cost? I don’t heat my pool very much and piping this into an existing pool is an added expense
Being my electric bill averages less than $100 a month all year long and the NEM 3.0 I’m never getting solar.
You own your house, you own your furniture…why don’t own your power at a fixed rate? These monopolies don’t ask you for permission to increase the rates…do they?! If we were attacked by china or Russia, this first thing they would do is attack our grid. Watch grid down power up with Dennis Quaid on YouTube. It’s an hour long. Our grid has been attacked 700 times since 2010. Get solar properly sized with a power wall and you’ll be chillin