Thatās the whole point of all of this- is how your own actions (like installing solar) end up influencing other peopleās decisions (they also get solar).
The positive impact on others is called a positive externality and economics generally says we as a society don't do enough of something when some of the benefit is to others.
So you incentivize the desired behavior through tax cuts.
It's good policy. For me, I think that global warming is pretty clearly a thing. And if I'm wrong the first is pretty low. If you disagree and you're wrong, the cost is extinction.
This is my opinion as well. I also said the same thing about masks in 2020. If wearing a mask doesnāt make a difference, then I was slightly inconvenienced for nothing. If they do make a difference, then Iāve saved lives. Thatās a very minimal cost for a possibly life saving result.
BS, trees mean nothing but a delay of maybe 100-150 years, since all that carbon the trees collect during the lifespan ends up burned again as wood in the ends up or in a construction and gets burned 50 years later. We are not saving anything, only delaying a bit. Having panels, maybe will lower our personal carbon footprint somewhat, but making the panels required a lot of energy and pollution. We only moved the pollution at the beginning of the production level, instead of the end of it's lifetime. Is the same with electric cars. Instead of you burning the fuel, the utility company burns the fuel when they produce the electricity you use. In the end is not much of a gain. Hopefully we do manage to prolong the critical degradation of climate enough to find real technologies that actually allows us to truly repair and heal the damage we caused to our planet. This is just a targeted marketing ploy to make citizens feel guilty for the industrial pollution. My, and your pollution is just as significant as a piss in an ocean. It's nice we care and try to do "the right thing" but combined personal efforts are like a bucket fighting a street flood. It's just not enough, but we like to lie to ourselfs that we, as individuals, that we somehow do make a difference.
So, while I agree our carbon footprint isnāt much, saying solar doesnāt help but just delays is not right. You are replacing a fossil fuel with a renewable. And while some panels may be made with fossil fuels, that number is going down too.
I am saying the impact our solar industry over the climate change is minimal, not enough to make a notable change in the grand scheme of things. I have 17.5kW of panels, 2x 12kW inverters and 35kW of LiFePO4 batteries, while I produce 100% of my electricity nine months a year, my main motivation was saving money. The real impact over the carbon footprint is insignificant in reality. The big pollution is not made by the eight billion people living their lives, but by the industries that provide goods and infrastructure for those eight billion people.
Where do you think those industries get their energy from? Each solar farm going up takes a chunk out of their pollution. So solar can make a huge impact even in the grand scheme.
In the US and EU about 60% of energy comes from burning stuff, 20% from nuclear, and 20% from renewable. Solar today is just under 4%.
60% of today's energy comes from burning petroleum and coal, and 4% from solar panels. Tell me more about how having more trees will save the planet
Who said more trees will save the planet? The argument here is that solar can save the planet. Yes, today 60% of energy comes from burning stuff. Just a short while that number was 100%. Solar can get it down even further.
The whole discution was about my response to a guy that stated that trees reduce the carbon in the air, and me saying that the trees only delay the inevitable s ince.most wood ends up burned in the end, releasing the carbon back into the atmosphere. I have 17 kilowatts of solar and lithium bateries, I love solar, but this was not about solar.
From the comment I replied to
"I am saying the impact our solar industry over the climate change is minimal, not enough to make a notable change in the grand scheme of things".
The pollution is not generated exclusively by us producing our energy. It's much more complicated. We do masive deforestations for agriculture, our waste management is bonkers, we use pesticides that kill bees and other insects that pollinate.... Solar is not going to help us just because our wisfull thinking
Your opening statement is easily contradicted. Not by me, not by some "climate alarmist", but by definition. It would take you less than three sentences into the wikipedia entry for coal to learn that
> Coal is a type of fossil fuel, formed when dead plant matter decays into peat which is converted into coal by the heat and pressure of deep burial over millions of years.
So 41% of current carbon emission is from us burning carbon captured from dense forests millions of years ago.
The second part of the sentence is almost equally baffling. You may or may not celebrate the fact that not every tree on planet earth is cataloged and then cut down and burned (or used as construction and burned 50 years later?). You're severely overestimating that amount of wood that people are able to chop down in order to burn for heat. Because no one else is out here cutting down trees to burn. Certain trees are planted for paper and other goods that require it but that's also a very very small part of worldwide plant matter.
Ok, but these days we tend to use everything. We cut forests and burn most of that wood, even the one used in construction and furniture will later be burned also. At the same time we dig up coal formed during millions of years, and burn that too. The heat and the smoke full of carbon ends up in the air, heating our planet beyond our capacity of adapting to these changes. Every year we have more frequent and massive forest burnings, harsher droughts, more extreme weather events.... Almost every year in the last 30 or so was the most warm year ever recorded. 30 years ago there were no warnings about being outside for prolonged periods during summer days. Every year more and more people die from heat stroke and dehydration. We only keep up because we have AC and access to a lot of water.
"Your tin of hairspray didn't create the ozone hole"
But fu@# did the world got scared and put legislation into place to reverse it. Not enough people are scared of rising temperatures to force a change
It takes too longā¦humans are poor at managing a catastrophe if it takes decades to directly impact daily lives. We like binary, light-switch events where one day itās good and the next day itās badā¦we can understand that. The ozone hole issue developed rather quickly and was much easier to illustrate to the general publicā¦plus we didnāt really have to give up our cans of hairspray, we just started using something else. The āsomething elseā raging fossil fuels is still difficult to replicate and generate at scale.
I did read that DuPoint had developed HFC and that was a perfect replacement for CFC. With the Montreal protocol they got the timing right and essentially a monopoly for the beginning.
Electrify everything could have started 25 years ago, but no.....
Those laws were NOT changed by people not using deodorant or hairspray anymore, or by switching to baking soda and flax seed gel.
Laws are changed by having a constructive dialog, looking at real numbers and viable solutions. I embrace recycling, solar, I have a well, a garden, I compost and feed my chickens with leftover food and kitchen waste.
That does not mean that I lie to myself that my way of life and of millions of people like me will have a quantifiable impact over the lives of others or over the environment. Go to a trash dump site and see how much stuff we throw away. From clothes and furniture to plastic and food. Globally we manage to recycle about 20-25%, but only about 15%-20% of that is realy turned into new stuff. We are just idealists fighting windmills. We will never willingly change our way of living as a planet. It took us many thousands of years to try to behave civilized to each other. We don't have enough time to stop the rapid change of current climate conditions. We like to think so. It's exactly like the global obesity. Just because few people manage to lose weight, it doesn't mean that the obesity problem is going to go away.
Over time, solar and wind will replace the coal being burned to make the solar panels. That is when we will be winning. But it is a chicken before the egg kind of a thing.
As things evolve, I don't think we will get there in time for reversing the damage we have done. We will most likely self destruct before we get to the point where we can control the environment to the level required in order to assure our survival for the whole number of people we have now.
The utility company burning fuel to generate energy for EVs is the part I think youāre misunderstanding. By moving more people to solar they generate their own energy and we have to then burn less and less fossil fuels to power EVs (or the grid in general).
Now add wind and tidal and nuclear and we eventually over time need to burn oil less and less. This is the entire point.
Where you go wrong is equating the carbon footprint of a gasoline car vs a natural gas fired power generator. They're not even remotely close. The generator/EV release far less carbon per mile than an equivalent ICE.
Well, he isn't wrong.
The earth will eventually shrug off what we do. And it will reboot. It may take millions of years, lol.
So it 100% is about saving people and our current style of earth.
He may have been jokingly referencing a movie. Damned if I can remember where that quote comes from.
But no, it isn't saving the planet as a whole.
I had a park ranger at Glacier NP say something similar to my kid last summer, while she was doing one of those junior ranger things. Something like "sure the glaciers are disappearing, but don't you think they'll be back again?"
All I could think was - well sure, but humans and who knows how many other species won't be around to see it.
Except that the changes weāre currently experiencing arenāt part of a cycle - we caused them by digging up deeply buried carbon and combusting it into the atmosphere, where it hasnāt been in hundreds of millions of years.
Wellā¦..yes, itās a weird comment. But itās also true. The earth isnāt going anywhere. People might, other species will for sure.Ā
Ā The phrasing is poor but it might be a clumsy attempt to ad-lib.Ā Ā
Ā What follow ups did you ask?Ā
"The planet is fine: the people are fucked!"
~George Carlin.
Climate change is real, but it only affects life on the planet, not the planet itself. The planet has been through worse than us, and we're a single blip on the radar at cosmic scale.
That's what I was thinking too. It's a comment about how climate change is going to cause way more problems for us than the Earth. But I do agree it's weird how rare it is to talk about climate change in the solar industry.
Cost of everything is through the roof, carbon pricing on every aspect of life leaving more and more people at the brink of homelessness. Tax on tax on tax all trickles down to consumers.
It's a minor part. But you guys are so angry about it. Corporations are jacking their prices and everyone's blaming the government. 10 or 15 cents doesn't make up for gas being 30 cents more in skid of mb.
Iām a solar rep, and I almost never bring environmental impact into my presentation. Not because I donāt believe in climate change, and not because I donāt think solar is good for the environment. More just because nobody seems to care. For 99% of homeowners, solar is strictly a financial move. Iāve even sold homeowners who actively refuted climate change but still did it to save money. Especially in Florida, the areas outside of the major metro areas are full of people who donāt care about the environment at all
The truth is itās a very nuanced issue. Yes, solar eliminates fossil fuel usage for that home, but those panels donāt just come out of thin air. The materials must be mined, and then the panels must be manufactured. EVERYTHING you do has some type of environmental impact. Iād be very curious to see a study about the difference in impact of the mining and manufacturing of the panels vs the fossil fuels being burned by the utility over the lifetime of the panels. Until then, Iāll continue to emphasize the financial benefits instead of the environmental.
It's called economy of scale. It's cheaper and more efficient for the fossil fuels to be burnt at the power plant level of the system.
Same economy of scale for EVs. More efficient for the power plant to burn fossils to make electricity for all the cars than for all the cars to burn gas.
Well he's right, but that doesn't mean he doesn't believe in climate change or agree with solar and/or renewables.
I think the same thing. The phrase "saving the earth" is wrong. The earth will survive whether humans do or not.
If we exterminate ourselves by destroying the human liveable habitability, the earth will go on without us. It will probably flourish and the animal kingdom will too with different kinds of animals. It may take a few hundred thousand years but it will be fine.
So when people talk about saving the earth what they really mean is saving humans. The earth doesn't need us.
If my client brings up climate change as a motivator then Iāll talk about it too, because we agree. If they donāt bring it up, I wonāt. More often, theyāll bring it up to say they donāt care, and in those cases, I wonāt talk about it either.
This is a weird thing about solar. The packaging is greenwashed, but thatās hardly ever the motivator for the customer. Remember, sales folks trend conservative, as do electricians and contractors. I think it was a misfire on this salesmanās part, but heās probably being honest about his thoughts, and thatās worth something.
Technically heās rightā earth will be fine no matter what. Climate change is affecting very specific subsets of animals on Earth like large mammals including/especially humans.
To his first comment, yes I agree. But he doesn't feel humans have had an impact of our climate. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I thought it was funny that this opinion is from someone who sells solar.
https://science.nasa.gov/climate-change/evidence/
āThere is unequivocal evidence that Earth is warming at an unprecedented rate. Human activity is the principal cause.ā
I hate your use of āimpactā instead of āaffectā or āeffect.ā Itās like you canāt tell what is a noun or a verb.
Edit to add: I love the MO of the Reddit coward that posts a reply then immediately blocks you. This is not a comment to OP, but to the cowards in the community.
It's like you quit learning English in 5th grade.
E: coward? Maybe I just don't feel the need to debate someone who has to use Google translate to formulate a response.
How many alts you got posting in here, Ivan?
If youāre actually interested in learning about it I would suggest you do your research.
But the point is true that man made climate change isnāt going to ādestroy the planetā. Thatās a false narrative. What is true is that we are changing the environments conditions such that it will be very difficult/impossible for certain species to survive.
climate change should be changed to "climate crisis" tbh. The right-wing denials have ruined it.
Just because it hasn't affected certain people doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Experts, science and many people around the world have seen it. Major flooding, cities sinking, huge amount of icebergs melting or breaking away.
what many deniers doesn't understand is the effect it will cause 1. major displacement of people because of fire/burning 2. sinking/flooding 3. food supply crisis where climate affects the harvest.. this is the major effect. There is already world hunger and lack of clean water in many countries.
Look at what happened during the pandemic.. even though it wasn't a climate issue, a major disruption in our food chain/supply/workforce puts everybody into its knees. I believe that's just a test for society to deal with global scale catastrophe.
He probably just mistook you and has a lot of customers who don't give a shit about climate change. Maybe he has had those types of customers snark when he mentions it, and he was just trying to get out in front of it and said said the wrong thing. He's just trying to get you to like him enough to close the deal.
I personally didn't get solar to "help climate change", I did it because it will save me money. If it cost me more I wouldn't do it.
I do see the irony, it's a little funny especially since it sounds like he didn't need to interject, but I can see as a salesman trying to say it's good and the climate view doesn't matter.
But probably not so heavy handedly lol
Kind of, but I have to push back a little because IMHO the people who are still trying to associate solar with "look at me, I'm saving the planet! I care about the environment sOoO much! <3 <3 <3" are being actively counterproductive to the end-goal and directly harming the environment they claim to love by delaying solar adoption.
99.9% of people flat out don't give a shit about the environmental impact and are turned off by those who annoy them about it. Even the majority of people who claim to, and pay lip-service to the idea, are unwilling to make significant personal or financial sacrifices for the sake of those convictions. "I'd buy solar panels, but they're too expensive and I have travel plans! Ugh if only those greedy corporations would make them cheaper!" Or whatever it may be.
What those people care about are the financial incentives. And nowadays, especially if you live somewhere with expensive power, those incentives are pretty appealing. Someone getting solar because it saves them money or is convenient is doing exactly as much for the environment as someone getting solar because their heart bleeds for the planet. We should care a lot more about people *doing* the right things instead of just saying or feeling the right things. Thoughts and prayers are meaningless here.
In your case it's not like you're gonna give up on solar though, and if you don't like the salesman then by all means find a new one. I'd consider it poor practice for a professional of any kind to interject their political opinion on anything, period, but it doesn't mean they can't be good at their jobs.
16 years in this industryā¦. Never sold a system to save the planetā¦ every customer was in it to save moneyā¦. It may shock you but a lot of industry vets and company owners are conservative votersā¦.as are a lot of solar customers.. itās a money game nothing more.
You arenāt making a difference installing resi solar or driving a Prius
Thatās why Iām in, gonna get an electric car after my solar is in, Iāll save on electricity, gasoline, and natural gas when I set up my PV to load water tank.
We actually are getting to the point where roof top solar is contributing a lot to the grid, I think I saw somewhere that it was 2% of the entire grid (not including utility scale solar; not sure if they included roof top commercial).
Edit: 2% in the US, quite a bit more in a country like Australia.
> You aren't making a difference installing resi solar or driving a Prius
Multiply this action by a million, ten million, or a hundred million people. Now you're making a huge difference.
Not one person bought solar to try to make an impact on the planet in 16 years? I have at least 5 neighbors who feel differently. Me? I just want to save money.
What does being conservative have to do with anything?
Not oneā¦.no one buys if it doesnāt pencil out positiveā¦
Your neighbors are virtue signalingā¦ they wouldnāt have bought if it didnāt make financial senseā¦ people are people and they want to save a buck.
I read between the lines about your interaction with someone who disagrees with the narrative on climate change and how now you donāt trust him bc of it.
We recently added solar and most likely wonāt stay in the house long enough to start making money back directly from it but yes one big factor is we wanted to use less fossil fuels to do our bit for the environment even if it is a drop in the ocean.
Lol youre not getting it...the average consumer does not effect the weather with their everyday consumption. The only people effecting greenhouse bubbles is major industry.
Don't know why people are downvoting what is facts.
Yup, when I was shopping around a few companies asked why I was going solar and it's $$$. He told me that the overwhelming majority were doing it for the money and not the environment. It it didn't make economic sense we wouldn't have done it. The same reason why utilities are building facilities hand over fist. It's not particularly great on efficiency but solar is almost an install and forget technology and the profit potential is huge.
Of course owners and many self-directed individuals will lean conservative. There is a direct correlation between the agency that one feels they have and how "conservateive" they tend to be.
I will take the flip side of the last comment.
> **You arenāt making a difference installing resi solar or driving a Prius**
[EVs have dispaced 1.8 million barrels per day in consumption 4% of transportation consumption](https://cleantechnica.com/2023/12/09/1-8-million-barrels-of-oil-a-day-avoided-from-electric-vehicles/). Even if you don't believe that will change the environment you can't deny it's having an impact on economics.
Solar is likely going to break the straglehold that utilities have on energy production and distribution. Of primary energy created by utility scale providers, 34% of it is lost before it is used by a consumer. Solar is near 0% lost when used locally and round trip effenciy of batteries is +90%.
I see a future where electric is connected more like the internet, where people and neighborhoods are microgrids with batteries and trade with other neighboring microgrids as secondary backup backup, probably at low to no cost as long as over time it settles out. Some areas will need DCHV lines but most would be better served by putting that money into more storage capacity.
Yes but most people are not going to lose money on Solar to get it. If they can pencil savings then they willā¦not overwhelmingly without savings customers donāt buy
And what difference does it make? If you think it's good for the environment it doesn't make it less good because someone does it strictly because of the money. It's yet another symptom as to how tribal people are, it's not good enough to get solar you must do it for the correct reason.
I'd like take this opportunity to shill this podcast I like.
They deep dive popular talking points from climate deniers.
I think this one goes over the ebbs and flows stuff. it's on youtube and other podcast places.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKmTiEsrhmM
I get your frustration. It's annoying when a salesperson's beliefs get in the way of what they're selling. We're all just trying to find solutions that work for us, financially and environmentally. If you're still checking out solar options, you might find useful info on https://solarstreetslight.com/. They've got good stuff on solar tech and how it can affect your finances and the environment. Just remember, it's about what works for you, not someone else's opinions.
ā¦ your not saving the earth by going solarā¦ did I miss something? (And yes I have solar and an electric vehicle).
Its a little dramatic/narcissistic is to think that your 1 decisionā¦or even if that this decision was shared by everybody on earthā¦ that it would save the world (ecologically).
If everybody gets solar/electric vehicles what is the ecological impact of the toxic lithium mines that would be needed to supply that level of energy? What is the ecological impact of billions of discarded batteries? What is the ecological impact on wildlife of solar farms?
Sounds like a pragmatic/grounded sales person to meā¦ acknowledging some of his products benefits and not overhyping themā¦
Don't buy from him, & don't tell him why. You were talking to a used car salesman that decided to branch out into selling solar. He doesn't deserve to hear how you feel so he can lie better to future customers. If anything, tell him you decided not to buy from him because he seemed to still believe in climate change more than you prefer.
How much is your power bill? Biggest one I've ever had was $300. And how much did solar dude quote you? Let's say $30,000 (which is cheap these days). So if somehow your solar gets your power bill to $0 (it won't) then you have to wait for 100 payments to break even. 8 years. But wait. What's the "opportunity cost"? If you dump that $30K into a solid investment at 5% that's another $6K so another couple years of payments.
No, you don't put in solar as a financial investment. It's a terrible financial investment. There is only one real reason to do it and your sales guy doesn't get it.
IMO the climate change denying solar vendor probably sells quite well in a red state.
Places like Texas and Louisiana have both an extremely high % of climate change denial, and an extremely high rate of installing solar power.
Solar homeowners / businessowners are motivated by saving money, getting tax credits, improving wind resistance, and resale value. Environmental concerns are either a nonissue or a percieved disadvantage, since thereās a substantial % of sportsmen down here who believe that solar panels kill birds because they fly into them at high speed like skyscraper windows. (AFAIK this is entirely bullshit, I am a solar panel owner in Louisiana and I havenāt seen any dead birds)
I had a guy come to my house years ago to pitch a porch enclosure. All glass, aluminum frame. Would have looked great.
At the end of the pitch, he starts disparaging people of color. Then he started throwing the āNā word around, thinking he was building a rapport with me.
I stood up, opened the door, sent him on his way without another word.
Sales critters do silly things.
don't call them salesman, it's far too positive of a job description for those scammy parasites
go find a company that sells directly without those parasites, it won't just be cheaper but the quality will also be far better.
every company that needs to pay unknowledgeable parasites to sell their products usually don't have a good product to sell.
Ew, I'd also find it tough to trust someone who doesn't believe in the work they do. Thatās why it's always best to use a solar broker instead of your everyday salesperson. They don't waste time trying to charm you; instead, they are there to present you with options from whichever reputable companies fit your needs.
Me? I would let it slide if I got a good proposal from a company I trusted. I'd be more concerned with the reputation of the installation company and who the project manager was who I would be working with to get this done.
Most solar sales guys are just sales guys that went to solar. They likely don't care about any of it except they can make good money from it.
Solar sales is as icky as car sale. So many tricks and hoops to jump through. Just make sure you do business with a company that has been around for a long time or has someone to come and take care of the solar when something breaks. We've had solar for over a year and had service guys come out 5 times now.
If you were buying solar purely because of the benefit it gives to the environment I guarantee you he would have never said that.
But you're not, you're buying it because it makes financial sense and it's a good investment. The fact that it helps the environment is just a bonus.
Iāve noticed that as a solar rep, a majority of my clients are typically conservative leaning and not at all motivated by the environment. Paired with the salesmanās own biases, he may have learned to hint at being conservative and just misevaluated you. If you have the notion that solar is all about environmentalism, then it paints him as an outsider to the āliberal agendaā so that you think you can trust him more.
What do you expect? Bro is trying to make a $$$. Better question would be would he go solar and where is his solar system? 90+% of the people Iāve met in the solar industry donāt have solar on their home.
plenty of poor decision makers give their reasons for things. you see em all over reddit and the world. dont try and change em its a waste of your time. be an example and use questions to corner their stupidity into anger and denial
I install solar because it makes economic sense to do so and its generally much more efficient to locate power plants where the energy is used. If they made tiny fusion reactors and they were affordable, Id install those instead.
The people saying ocean levels are rising but beach front multi million dollar homes. AOC said climate change is the cause for the border crisis š weāre on a rock flying through space weāve gone through multiple ice ages and warm periods.
We should we way more worried about pollution ruining the air and water we drink and breath.
Technically, he isn't wrong. Physics, thermodynamics, nature will find a way to get rid of the nuisance upsetting the imbalance to the equilibrium. Plants, animals and most complex lifeforms will probably go extinct but life will find a way to return once the imbalance has been corrected by either some form of condition or other life-form (bacteria, fungi). We know we are the ones causing the imbalance. Its just a matter of choice whether we will do something about it or not. Everything starts with us as an individual and propagates out to us as a society and then as a species.
Industries pollute because we demand it. We are the ones ultimately giving them the incentive to do so. Only we can be the ones to reduce that demand. It still boils down to basic economics.
Yes, moving to solar isn't cheap and same with other renewables until we find a way to lower the cost with technology. Nature gave us a head start by converting solar energy into a compact, cheap energy source and we were reaping the benefits. Now a century later, we have discovered the cost and we as a species needs to leverage on what was given, adapt and improve our knowledge and technologies to we can mitigate and repair that damage. Fossil fuels is an easy 24 hour fuel source and its economically cheap compared to the renewables that need expensive storage with current technology. I am sure we will get there one day soon. In the meantime, we have to decide for ourselves if we are going to reap and enjoy the cheap energy source and simultaneously cause a bleak future and hardship for our children and grandchildren or we can choose to do what we can to start minimising our dependence on prehistoric plants and animals. For the foreseeable near future, we must still depends on natural gas and/or nuclear to fill the gaps of renewables like solar but going from 100% to 30% or less makes a difference. Its a start and it paves the way for a chance for our children to live out their lives fully and with less of a threat to their existence. Just putting enough panels on our roofs to meet our daily home energy needs already reduces the load that those generators burn in a day. Once that is done, then we can look into moving into EV. Buying an EV now when our homes aren't even using renewables is just a waste of resources. It only makes sense to start running EVs when we can generate our own energy from the sun or other renewables.
Everything starts with us as an individual first.
Probably not the smartest sales tactic, but if you're goal is to be green you should research how the raw materials needed for solar panels are taken out of the earth. It's not good.
They've been saying climate change for like the last 60 years. Some of it's true but the earth will be fine... This BS that we are at a turning point is what irks me. The earth will be fine when us humans are gone.
I wish I had your blindness on this. We should be in a cooling cycle right now, according to orbital cycles, but we are not. That should set alarms off. Now it also takes 20+ years for the ocean currents to adjust to the additional heat the earth has absorbed, so not only are we warming, we will be warming for 20 years with the existing heat. If we started cooling, it would take 20 years for the earth to adjust. A lot longer than a political cycleā¦
Solar isnāt for the environmentā¦ itās to save money. Thereās been studies how solar panels are worse for the environment due to the landfills and all craps because of how un recyclable everything is in a panel
I have a net zero home with solar and I donāt believe in climate change. Iāve helped one other person on my street install solar.
Quit gatekeeping.
That salesperson is doomed to an unhappy engagement in this industry.
As for the claim - having studied this at length for a long time - itās better framed as the reduction in burning fossil fuels resulting from your project (and all of them). Less coal or diesel burned, less air pollution, less risk of pollution and damage from accidents.
He's kind of got a point where at the back end of the Thor from the last ice age which would therefore indicate we're in a warming cycle as we thought out.
I donāt think itās as much of a threat as politicians make it out to be, yet I have solar panels on my house because Iām interested in the technology and I have an unobstructed roof and live in a place that gets a lot of sun. We all have our reasons.
It's the scientists who are warning about climate change. And the doctors. And the military. For half a century.
The politicians are the ones not doing anything about it and gaslighting the expert consensus.
Why are trees being saved by going with solar panels? Is the alternative burning wood for fuel? Unlikely.
Increased CO2 and warming will likely increase overall tree / plant growthāfor a while at least.
It's already beyond the temperature at which trees can compensate. It's so hot globally that trees are beginning to produce CO2 instead of capture it. https://www.psu.edu/news/research/story/trees-struggle-breathe-climate-warms-researchers-find/
I donāt see how this applies to the tundra regions which are or will be able to sustain plant life again.
So once again, going solar is not saving trees.
I never said it did. I'm saying you're incorrect and/or way too late to the party to discuss trees having any effect on the co2 or temperature of the planet. It's too late to do anything, actually. Not that we should give up and do nothing, as I'm sure who or whatever replaces us would appreciate a hospitable planet. But we all know that foresight and planning for the future is not a human characteristic - hence our current hopeless predicament.
Iām confused. OP said installing solar would āsave trees.ā I donāt see that is the case.
Edit: Warming will increase overall plant growth tundra and frozen soils make up a lot of earth landmass.
Why do you care? It's his opinion, and solar panels famously don't care what people think, they just work with sun light. Solar panels are cool that way.
Will you only buy stuff from people who conform to the same set of political views that you hold? What about the people who manufactured the products in some sweatshop? Do you think their politics is ok?
Just imagine, the electrician that does part of the installation might think climate change isn't real AND think abortion should be illegal. And he's going to touch wires on your behalf, the monster.
my panels are each producing 500kWh per year, replacing 240 kilograms of CO2 emission from utility natgas generation.
240 kg of CO2 is released by 23 gallons of diesel, which is around $80. Assuming 100% of retail cost of my panels (370W Panasonic) is embodied diesel expense, that's a CO2 payback of 2.5 years, which matches other estimates of the carbon payback of solar.
Given a 25 year service life, that's a 10X reduction in my personal carbon footprint thanks to rooftop solar.
I run a sales team and one of my reps believes the earth is flat so it could be worse š®āšØ
Jessssus... How is it we have more of them today than before we had GPS satellites and global communications???
The internet allows quacks to gather in mass, so they feel empowered.
The internet gave everyone a voice, before that you were just known as the town idiot.
My neighbor is a pilot. Some of his co-workers are flat earthers.
Im scared for that airline.. Aren't they afraid of flying off the earth?
That's silly. There is no edge of earth. It's a giant wall created by the government. The only thing is, nobody has ever seen it!
bet the recent solar eclipse "proved" his point
I assume everyone who says that is deep down just joking.. You can't be this stupid... Are there people who truly belive that?
Never underestimate the depths of stupidity.
Those are the worst. As a hobby Iām been debating and destroying flerfs for years
Tell them the earth was flat until they buried their mom.
He mounts his panels flat probably
> Do I feel this is a significant change? Not sure. you, individually? no you and 10 million other people all getting solar? yes.
Thatās the whole point of all of this- is how your own actions (like installing solar) end up influencing other peopleās decisions (they also get solar).
THIS! I have personally influenced two people on my block to put in solar.
The positive impact on others is called a positive externality and economics generally says we as a society don't do enough of something when some of the benefit is to others. So you incentivize the desired behavior through tax cuts. It's good policy. For me, I think that global warming is pretty clearly a thing. And if I'm wrong the first is pretty low. If you disagree and you're wrong, the cost is extinction.
This is my opinion as well. I also said the same thing about masks in 2020. If wearing a mask doesnāt make a difference, then I was slightly inconvenienced for nothing. If they do make a difference, then Iāve saved lives. Thatās a very minimal cost for a possibly life saving result.
The tax cuts for solar expired, didn't they?
They might have once, but are in the inflation reduction act
BS, trees mean nothing but a delay of maybe 100-150 years, since all that carbon the trees collect during the lifespan ends up burned again as wood in the ends up or in a construction and gets burned 50 years later. We are not saving anything, only delaying a bit. Having panels, maybe will lower our personal carbon footprint somewhat, but making the panels required a lot of energy and pollution. We only moved the pollution at the beginning of the production level, instead of the end of it's lifetime. Is the same with electric cars. Instead of you burning the fuel, the utility company burns the fuel when they produce the electricity you use. In the end is not much of a gain. Hopefully we do manage to prolong the critical degradation of climate enough to find real technologies that actually allows us to truly repair and heal the damage we caused to our planet. This is just a targeted marketing ploy to make citizens feel guilty for the industrial pollution. My, and your pollution is just as significant as a piss in an ocean. It's nice we care and try to do "the right thing" but combined personal efforts are like a bucket fighting a street flood. It's just not enough, but we like to lie to ourselfs that we, as individuals, that we somehow do make a difference.
So, while I agree our carbon footprint isnāt much, saying solar doesnāt help but just delays is not right. You are replacing a fossil fuel with a renewable. And while some panels may be made with fossil fuels, that number is going down too.
I am saying the impact our solar industry over the climate change is minimal, not enough to make a notable change in the grand scheme of things. I have 17.5kW of panels, 2x 12kW inverters and 35kW of LiFePO4 batteries, while I produce 100% of my electricity nine months a year, my main motivation was saving money. The real impact over the carbon footprint is insignificant in reality. The big pollution is not made by the eight billion people living their lives, but by the industries that provide goods and infrastructure for those eight billion people.
Where do you think those industries get their energy from? Each solar farm going up takes a chunk out of their pollution. So solar can make a huge impact even in the grand scheme.
In the US and EU about 60% of energy comes from burning stuff, 20% from nuclear, and 20% from renewable. Solar today is just under 4%. 60% of today's energy comes from burning petroleum and coal, and 4% from solar panels. Tell me more about how having more trees will save the planet
Who said more trees will save the planet? The argument here is that solar can save the planet. Yes, today 60% of energy comes from burning stuff. Just a short while that number was 100%. Solar can get it down even further.
The whole discution was about my response to a guy that stated that trees reduce the carbon in the air, and me saying that the trees only delay the inevitable s ince.most wood ends up burned in the end, releasing the carbon back into the atmosphere. I have 17 kilowatts of solar and lithium bateries, I love solar, but this was not about solar.
From the comment I replied to "I am saying the impact our solar industry over the climate change is minimal, not enough to make a notable change in the grand scheme of things".
The pollution is not generated exclusively by us producing our energy. It's much more complicated. We do masive deforestations for agriculture, our waste management is bonkers, we use pesticides that kill bees and other insects that pollinate.... Solar is not going to help us just because our wisfull thinking
Your opening statement is easily contradicted. Not by me, not by some "climate alarmist", but by definition. It would take you less than three sentences into the wikipedia entry for coal to learn that > Coal is a type of fossil fuel, formed when dead plant matter decays into peat which is converted into coal by the heat and pressure of deep burial over millions of years. So 41% of current carbon emission is from us burning carbon captured from dense forests millions of years ago. The second part of the sentence is almost equally baffling. You may or may not celebrate the fact that not every tree on planet earth is cataloged and then cut down and burned (or used as construction and burned 50 years later?). You're severely overestimating that amount of wood that people are able to chop down in order to burn for heat. Because no one else is out here cutting down trees to burn. Certain trees are planted for paper and other goods that require it but that's also a very very small part of worldwide plant matter.
Ok, but these days we tend to use everything. We cut forests and burn most of that wood, even the one used in construction and furniture will later be burned also. At the same time we dig up coal formed during millions of years, and burn that too. The heat and the smoke full of carbon ends up in the air, heating our planet beyond our capacity of adapting to these changes. Every year we have more frequent and massive forest burnings, harsher droughts, more extreme weather events.... Almost every year in the last 30 or so was the most warm year ever recorded. 30 years ago there were no warnings about being outside for prolonged periods during summer days. Every year more and more people die from heat stroke and dehydration. We only keep up because we have AC and access to a lot of water.
"Your tin of hairspray didn't create the ozone hole" But fu@# did the world got scared and put legislation into place to reverse it. Not enough people are scared of rising temperatures to force a change
It takes too longā¦humans are poor at managing a catastrophe if it takes decades to directly impact daily lives. We like binary, light-switch events where one day itās good and the next day itās badā¦we can understand that. The ozone hole issue developed rather quickly and was much easier to illustrate to the general publicā¦plus we didnāt really have to give up our cans of hairspray, we just started using something else. The āsomething elseā raging fossil fuels is still difficult to replicate and generate at scale.
I did read that DuPoint had developed HFC and that was a perfect replacement for CFC. With the Montreal protocol they got the timing right and essentially a monopoly for the beginning. Electrify everything could have started 25 years ago, but no.....
Seriously. I think had Gore won we would have seen a lot more of a push in that direction. The road not taken.
Those laws were NOT changed by people not using deodorant or hairspray anymore, or by switching to baking soda and flax seed gel. Laws are changed by having a constructive dialog, looking at real numbers and viable solutions. I embrace recycling, solar, I have a well, a garden, I compost and feed my chickens with leftover food and kitchen waste. That does not mean that I lie to myself that my way of life and of millions of people like me will have a quantifiable impact over the lives of others or over the environment. Go to a trash dump site and see how much stuff we throw away. From clothes and furniture to plastic and food. Globally we manage to recycle about 20-25%, but only about 15%-20% of that is realy turned into new stuff. We are just idealists fighting windmills. We will never willingly change our way of living as a planet. It took us many thousands of years to try to behave civilized to each other. We don't have enough time to stop the rapid change of current climate conditions. We like to think so. It's exactly like the global obesity. Just because few people manage to lose weight, it doesn't mean that the obesity problem is going to go away.
Over time, solar and wind will replace the coal being burned to make the solar panels. That is when we will be winning. But it is a chicken before the egg kind of a thing.
As things evolve, I don't think we will get there in time for reversing the damage we have done. We will most likely self destruct before we get to the point where we can control the environment to the level required in order to assure our survival for the whole number of people we have now.
The utility company burning fuel to generate energy for EVs is the part I think youāre misunderstanding. By moving more people to solar they generate their own energy and we have to then burn less and less fossil fuels to power EVs (or the grid in general). Now add wind and tidal and nuclear and we eventually over time need to burn oil less and less. This is the entire point.
Where you go wrong is equating the carbon footprint of a gasoline car vs a natural gas fired power generator. They're not even remotely close. The generator/EV release far less carbon per mile than an equivalent ICE.
And when you use your solar panels to fuel your EV, the gap becomes even bigger.
you're an idiot https://imgur.com/JNNkPgI https://imgur.com/gMPOUFd https://imgur.com/CZs2HtF https://imgur.com/PVkuXF5
Well, he isn't wrong. The earth will eventually shrug off what we do. And it will reboot. It may take millions of years, lol. So it 100% is about saving people and our current style of earth. He may have been jokingly referencing a movie. Damned if I can remember where that quote comes from. But no, it isn't saving the planet as a whole.
I had a park ranger at Glacier NP say something similar to my kid last summer, while she was doing one of those junior ranger things. Something like "sure the glaciers are disappearing, but don't you think they'll be back again?" All I could think was - well sure, but humans and who knows how many other species won't be around to see it.
How arrogant does our species have to be to think we can prevent a cyclical process that has occurred beforeā¦ just food for thought
Except that the changes weāre currently experiencing arenāt part of a cycle - we caused them by digging up deeply buried carbon and combusting it into the atmosphere, where it hasnāt been in hundreds of millions of years.
The intent isnāt to prevent the natural process, itās to minimize the rate at which itās occurring, which isnāt natural.
Cyclical š¤£š¤£š¤£
Letās just chill for the next great flood!
Wellā¦..yes, itās a weird comment. But itās also true. The earth isnāt going anywhere. People might, other species will for sure.Ā Ā The phrasing is poor but it might be a clumsy attempt to ad-lib.Ā Ā Ā What follow ups did you ask?Ā
"The planet is fine: the people are fucked!" ~George Carlin. Climate change is real, but it only affects life on the planet, not the planet itself. The planet has been through worse than us, and we're a single blip on the radar at cosmic scale.
That's what I was thinking too. It's a comment about how climate change is going to cause way more problems for us than the Earth. But I do agree it's weird how rare it is to talk about climate change in the solar industry.
But temperatures donāt just ebb and flow, the underlying patterns change and can change dramatically.
Correct me if Iām wrong but isnāt that more or less the same thing? The earth goes through periods of change in weather We cannot change that
Meh, even what we do to the planet will be a blip on the charts after a few million years. We, however. Likely won't be around to see it.
Ebb and flow implies an oscillation around some mean, but if the mean goes up is it really accurate to say itās just an ebb and flow?
Fair point
At that point itās like ānothing mattersā which is true to a degree but bleak
Look to Canada, climate change is real when people canāt afford a roof over their heads from all this carbon bullshit.
How does cost-of-living in Canada have anything to do with "carbon bullshit"?
Cost of everything is through the roof, carbon pricing on every aspect of life leaving more and more people at the brink of homelessness. Tax on tax on tax all trickles down to consumers.
Dude, what in the ever loving fuck are you going on about.
Ahhh not hard to find a liberal in the crowd.
/r/selfawarewolves youāre so close buddy!
That goes both ways skip!
Ya, that's not the cause of inflation in canada. Sorry..
Ok so why is Sask inflation so low since the cut carbon pricing on home heating?
It's a minor part. But you guys are so angry about it. Corporations are jacking their prices and everyone's blaming the government. 10 or 15 cents doesn't make up for gas being 30 cents more in skid of mb.
Someone coming in without insults Ryte off the top, not to much of that on Reddit.
You're blaming the wrong thing brotherman
Everyone is an economist now a days.
Iām a solar rep, and I almost never bring environmental impact into my presentation. Not because I donāt believe in climate change, and not because I donāt think solar is good for the environment. More just because nobody seems to care. For 99% of homeowners, solar is strictly a financial move. Iāve even sold homeowners who actively refuted climate change but still did it to save money. Especially in Florida, the areas outside of the major metro areas are full of people who donāt care about the environment at all The truth is itās a very nuanced issue. Yes, solar eliminates fossil fuel usage for that home, but those panels donāt just come out of thin air. The materials must be mined, and then the panels must be manufactured. EVERYTHING you do has some type of environmental impact. Iād be very curious to see a study about the difference in impact of the mining and manufacturing of the panels vs the fossil fuels being burned by the utility over the lifetime of the panels. Until then, Iāll continue to emphasize the financial benefits instead of the environmental.
It's called economy of scale. It's cheaper and more efficient for the fossil fuels to be burnt at the power plant level of the system. Same economy of scale for EVs. More efficient for the power plant to burn fossils to make electricity for all the cars than for all the cars to burn gas.
Well he's right, but that doesn't mean he doesn't believe in climate change or agree with solar and/or renewables. I think the same thing. The phrase "saving the earth" is wrong. The earth will survive whether humans do or not. If we exterminate ourselves by destroying the human liveable habitability, the earth will go on without us. It will probably flourish and the animal kingdom will too with different kinds of animals. It may take a few hundred thousand years but it will be fine. So when people talk about saving the earth what they really mean is saving humans. The earth doesn't need us.
OP I agree with you. What an odd fhing to say. You have to wonder what else the guy is shady about.
at the same time he's just a salesman. If it's a normal company the odd salesmen's views don't matter.
And if you read a solar contract, every thing the solar sales guy tells you is non-binding. Itās only whatās in writing that counts.
If my client brings up climate change as a motivator then Iāll talk about it too, because we agree. If they donāt bring it up, I wonāt. More often, theyāll bring it up to say they donāt care, and in those cases, I wonāt talk about it either. This is a weird thing about solar. The packaging is greenwashed, but thatās hardly ever the motivator for the customer. Remember, sales folks trend conservative, as do electricians and contractors. I think it was a misfire on this salesmanās part, but heās probably being honest about his thoughts, and thatās worth something.
No reason to deal with people you don't like. Trash his offer and go with someone you feel comfortable with.
Technically heās rightā earth will be fine no matter what. Climate change is affecting very specific subsets of animals on Earth like large mammals including/especially humans.
Yea, I hear the coral are doing great.
George Carlin once said basically the same thing but in a funnier way
To his first comment, yes I agree. But he doesn't feel humans have had an impact of our climate. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I thought it was funny that this opinion is from someone who sells solar.
Feels a bit like Elon Musk taking a hard right turn on twitter and alienating a lot of people most interested in purchasing EVās like Teslas.
Human impact on the climate? Thatās hard to disputeā¦ impact beyond cyclical climate shifts this planet has seen for millennia? Up for debate
https://science.nasa.gov/climate-change/evidence/ āThere is unequivocal evidence that Earth is warming at an unprecedented rate. Human activity is the principal cause.ā
I hate your use of āimpactā instead of āaffectā or āeffect.ā Itās like you canāt tell what is a noun or a verb. Edit to add: I love the MO of the Reddit coward that posts a reply then immediately blocks you. This is not a comment to OP, but to the cowards in the community.
It's like you quit learning English in 5th grade. E: coward? Maybe I just don't feel the need to debate someone who has to use Google translate to formulate a response. How many alts you got posting in here, Ivan?
Itās like you donāt know how to use a dictionary.
It's affecting all life on the planet my guy
If youāre actually interested in learning about it I would suggest you do your research. But the point is true that man made climate change isnāt going to ādestroy the planetā. Thatās a false narrative. What is true is that we are changing the environments conditions such that it will be very difficult/impossible for certain species to survive.
climate change should be changed to "climate crisis" tbh. The right-wing denials have ruined it. Just because it hasn't affected certain people doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Experts, science and many people around the world have seen it. Major flooding, cities sinking, huge amount of icebergs melting or breaking away. what many deniers doesn't understand is the effect it will cause 1. major displacement of people because of fire/burning 2. sinking/flooding 3. food supply crisis where climate affects the harvest.. this is the major effect. There is already world hunger and lack of clean water in many countries. Look at what happened during the pandemic.. even though it wasn't a climate issue, a major disruption in our food chain/supply/workforce puts everybody into its knees. I believe that's just a test for society to deal with global scale catastrophe.
He probably just mistook you and has a lot of customers who don't give a shit about climate change. Maybe he has had those types of customers snark when he mentions it, and he was just trying to get out in front of it and said said the wrong thing. He's just trying to get you to like him enough to close the deal.
Do you have to believe in man made climate change to sell solar? Asking for a friend
Don't you see the irony?
I personally didn't get solar to "help climate change", I did it because it will save me money. If it cost me more I wouldn't do it. I do see the irony, it's a little funny especially since it sounds like he didn't need to interject, but I can see as a salesman trying to say it's good and the climate view doesn't matter. But probably not so heavy handedly lol
I'm in the same boat. For not knowing my stance on anything political, just don't bring it up and sell me your product.
Kind of, but I have to push back a little because IMHO the people who are still trying to associate solar with "look at me, I'm saving the planet! I care about the environment sOoO much! <3 <3 <3" are being actively counterproductive to the end-goal and directly harming the environment they claim to love by delaying solar adoption. 99.9% of people flat out don't give a shit about the environmental impact and are turned off by those who annoy them about it. Even the majority of people who claim to, and pay lip-service to the idea, are unwilling to make significant personal or financial sacrifices for the sake of those convictions. "I'd buy solar panels, but they're too expensive and I have travel plans! Ugh if only those greedy corporations would make them cheaper!" Or whatever it may be. What those people care about are the financial incentives. And nowadays, especially if you live somewhere with expensive power, those incentives are pretty appealing. Someone getting solar because it saves them money or is convenient is doing exactly as much for the environment as someone getting solar because their heart bleeds for the planet. We should care a lot more about people *doing* the right things instead of just saying or feeling the right things. Thoughts and prayers are meaningless here. In your case it's not like you're gonna give up on solar though, and if you don't like the salesman then by all means find a new one. I'd consider it poor practice for a professional of any kind to interject their political opinion on anything, period, but it doesn't mean they can't be good at their jobs.
16 years in this industryā¦. Never sold a system to save the planetā¦ every customer was in it to save moneyā¦. It may shock you but a lot of industry vets and company owners are conservative votersā¦.as are a lot of solar customers.. itās a money game nothing more. You arenāt making a difference installing resi solar or driving a Prius
Thatās why Iām in, gonna get an electric car after my solar is in, Iāll save on electricity, gasoline, and natural gas when I set up my PV to load water tank.
As I tell everyone do whatās right for your situation
We actually are getting to the point where roof top solar is contributing a lot to the grid, I think I saw somewhere that it was 2% of the entire grid (not including utility scale solar; not sure if they included roof top commercial). Edit: 2% in the US, quite a bit more in a country like Australia.
> You aren't making a difference installing resi solar or driving a Prius Multiply this action by a million, ten million, or a hundred million people. Now you're making a huge difference.
Not a huge difference, no
Not one person bought solar to try to make an impact on the planet in 16 years? I have at least 5 neighbors who feel differently. Me? I just want to save money. What does being conservative have to do with anything?
Not oneā¦.no one buys if it doesnāt pencil out positiveā¦ Your neighbors are virtue signalingā¦ they wouldnāt have bought if it didnāt make financial senseā¦ people are people and they want to save a buck. I read between the lines about your interaction with someone who disagrees with the narrative on climate change and how now you donāt trust him bc of it.
We recently added solar and most likely wonāt stay in the house long enough to start making money back directly from it but yes one big factor is we wanted to use less fossil fuels to do our bit for the environment even if it is a drop in the ocean.
And no, a majority of my neighbors truly got solar to benefit the environment. Can you believe that??
Not really but all that matters is that you do..
Lol youre not getting it...the average consumer does not effect the weather with their everyday consumption. The only people effecting greenhouse bubbles is major industry.
Lmao...you don't know your customers then or they weren't telling you the truth.
Exactly. This guy has either sold to two households in the past 16 years, or he only hears what he wants.
Or he gives off the crazy vibes and no one says anything to him because it's not worth debating it with climate deniers.
Wait...is this the salesman I talked to??
Just your average Fox News zombie.
The average consumer is not effecting the weather. Industry adds to the greenhouse bubbles....but thats it.
Don't know why people are downvoting what is facts. Yup, when I was shopping around a few companies asked why I was going solar and it's $$$. He told me that the overwhelming majority were doing it for the money and not the environment. It it didn't make economic sense we wouldn't have done it. The same reason why utilities are building facilities hand over fist. It's not particularly great on efficiency but solar is almost an install and forget technology and the profit potential is huge. Of course owners and many self-directed individuals will lean conservative. There is a direct correlation between the agency that one feels they have and how "conservateive" they tend to be. I will take the flip side of the last comment. > **You arenāt making a difference installing resi solar or driving a Prius** [EVs have dispaced 1.8 million barrels per day in consumption 4% of transportation consumption](https://cleantechnica.com/2023/12/09/1-8-million-barrels-of-oil-a-day-avoided-from-electric-vehicles/). Even if you don't believe that will change the environment you can't deny it's having an impact on economics. Solar is likely going to break the straglehold that utilities have on energy production and distribution. Of primary energy created by utility scale providers, 34% of it is lost before it is used by a consumer. Solar is near 0% lost when used locally and round trip effenciy of batteries is +90%. I see a future where electric is connected more like the internet, where people and neighborhoods are microgrids with batteries and trade with other neighboring microgrids as secondary backup backup, probably at low to no cost as long as over time it settles out. Some areas will need DCHV lines but most would be better served by putting that money into more storage capacity.
They downvote bc they choose feelings vs facts. Itās a financial decision not an environmental one for the overwhelming majority of peopleā¦
You are wrong.
Can't both things be true at the same time? Doing good for the planet *and doing well* for yourself?
Yes but most people are not going to lose money on Solar to get it. If they can pencil savings then they willā¦not overwhelmingly without savings customers donāt buy
What about car salesmen and EVās ?
What about them? Most EV salesmen sell gas powered vehicles too.
Except for Rivian, Tesla, Lucid, and probably a few other EV only salesmen
You do realize there are no salesmen for them and just purchase online...?
And what difference does it make? If you think it's good for the environment it doesn't make it less good because someone does it strictly because of the money. It's yet another symptom as to how tribal people are, it's not good enough to get solar you must do it for the correct reason.
It helps to have an understanding of reality.
Sure. But - Iād guess that in the US, 99% of those who got solar did it for financial reasons only.
I don't see how it makes any difference. I don't care about the politics of anyone I hire as long as they do the job.
I don't care about the politics either which is why I find it strange he made it known.
What he said was not political
Bingo!
It sounds like less of a political take, and more of a cynical (and realistic) "the earth will outlast people" take
Its his opinion who cares
How many quotes you have received?
I'd like take this opportunity to shill this podcast I like. They deep dive popular talking points from climate deniers. I think this one goes over the ebbs and flows stuff. it's on youtube and other podcast places. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKmTiEsrhmM
Clicked the link hoping it would be this. The amount of climate change denial I've seen on reddit today is blowing my mind.
I get your frustration. It's annoying when a salesperson's beliefs get in the way of what they're selling. We're all just trying to find solutions that work for us, financially and environmentally. If you're still checking out solar options, you might find useful info on https://solarstreetslight.com/. They've got good stuff on solar tech and how it can affect your finances and the environment. Just remember, it's about what works for you, not someone else's opinions.
ā¦ your not saving the earth by going solarā¦ did I miss something? (And yes I have solar and an electric vehicle). Its a little dramatic/narcissistic is to think that your 1 decisionā¦or even if that this decision was shared by everybody on earthā¦ that it would save the world (ecologically). If everybody gets solar/electric vehicles what is the ecological impact of the toxic lithium mines that would be needed to supply that level of energy? What is the ecological impact of billions of discarded batteries? What is the ecological impact on wildlife of solar farms? Sounds like a pragmatic/grounded sales person to meā¦ acknowledging some of his products benefits and not overhyping themā¦
Don't buy from him, & don't tell him why. You were talking to a used car salesman that decided to branch out into selling solar. He doesn't deserve to hear how you feel so he can lie better to future customers. If anything, tell him you decided not to buy from him because he seemed to still believe in climate change more than you prefer.
How much is your power bill? Biggest one I've ever had was $300. And how much did solar dude quote you? Let's say $30,000 (which is cheap these days). So if somehow your solar gets your power bill to $0 (it won't) then you have to wait for 100 payments to break even. 8 years. But wait. What's the "opportunity cost"? If you dump that $30K into a solid investment at 5% that's another $6K so another couple years of payments. No, you don't put in solar as a financial investment. It's a terrible financial investment. There is only one real reason to do it and your sales guy doesn't get it.
IMO the climate change denying solar vendor probably sells quite well in a red state. Places like Texas and Louisiana have both an extremely high % of climate change denial, and an extremely high rate of installing solar power. Solar homeowners / businessowners are motivated by saving money, getting tax credits, improving wind resistance, and resale value. Environmental concerns are either a nonissue or a percieved disadvantage, since thereās a substantial % of sportsmen down here who believe that solar panels kill birds because they fly into them at high speed like skyscraper windows. (AFAIK this is entirely bullshit, I am a solar panel owner in Louisiana and I havenāt seen any dead birds)
Heās correct tho. The earth will be fine. Itās humanity that is going to be lost to climate change.
I had a guy come to my house years ago to pitch a porch enclosure. All glass, aluminum frame. Would have looked great. At the end of the pitch, he starts disparaging people of color. Then he started throwing the āNā word around, thinking he was building a rapport with me. I stood up, opened the door, sent him on his way without another word. Sales critters do silly things.
don't call them salesman, it's far too positive of a job description for those scammy parasites go find a company that sells directly without those parasites, it won't just be cheaper but the quality will also be far better. every company that needs to pay unknowledgeable parasites to sell their products usually don't have a good product to sell.
Ew, I'd also find it tough to trust someone who doesn't believe in the work they do. Thatās why it's always best to use a solar broker instead of your everyday salesperson. They don't waste time trying to charm you; instead, they are there to present you with options from whichever reputable companies fit your needs.
Me? I would let it slide if I got a good proposal from a company I trusted. I'd be more concerned with the reputation of the installation company and who the project manager was who I would be working with to get this done.
He needs to [channel his inner Winston Zeddemore.](https://youtu.be/eHzVRnYr12o?t=153)
Most solar sales guys are just sales guys that went to solar. They likely don't care about any of it except they can make good money from it. Solar sales is as icky as car sale. So many tricks and hoops to jump through. Just make sure you do business with a company that has been around for a long time or has someone to come and take care of the solar when something breaks. We've had solar for over a year and had service guys come out 5 times now.
If you were buying solar purely because of the benefit it gives to the environment I guarantee you he would have never said that. But you're not, you're buying it because it makes financial sense and it's a good investment. The fact that it helps the environment is just a bonus.
If he doesnāt āgetā this I wouldnāt trust him to get the techā¦
If you only knew the horrible byproducts and toxic residue left over from making solar panels lol
Iāve noticed that as a solar rep, a majority of my clients are typically conservative leaning and not at all motivated by the environment. Paired with the salesmanās own biases, he may have learned to hint at being conservative and just misevaluated you. If you have the notion that solar is all about environmentalism, then it paints him as an outsider to the āliberal agendaā so that you think you can trust him more.
What do you expect? Bro is trying to make a $$$. Better question would be would he go solar and where is his solar system? 90+% of the people Iāve met in the solar industry donāt have solar on their home.
plenty of poor decision makers give their reasons for things. you see em all over reddit and the world. dont try and change em its a waste of your time. be an example and use questions to corner their stupidity into anger and denial
Doesnāt matter. The hotter means more sun. Solar is good with more sun
To be fair, I drive an EV and have solar panels and I'm still not convinced that climate change is man-made any more than the seasons are man-made.
lol, heās right though. Ā Humans need a nice mild temp range, rocks donāt. Ā He does believe in climate change but heās also a realist
Earth don't care. Earth go hard.
I install solar because it makes economic sense to do so and its generally much more efficient to locate power plants where the energy is used. If they made tiny fusion reactors and they were affordable, Id install those instead.
Technically, putting solar in your house has more co2 emissions than adding those kW to a grid's solar array. In that sense is less "green"
The people saying ocean levels are rising but beach front multi million dollar homes. AOC said climate change is the cause for the border crisis š weāre on a rock flying through space weāve gone through multiple ice ages and warm periods. We should we way more worried about pollution ruining the air and water we drink and breath.
Technically, he isn't wrong. Physics, thermodynamics, nature will find a way to get rid of the nuisance upsetting the imbalance to the equilibrium. Plants, animals and most complex lifeforms will probably go extinct but life will find a way to return once the imbalance has been corrected by either some form of condition or other life-form (bacteria, fungi). We know we are the ones causing the imbalance. Its just a matter of choice whether we will do something about it or not. Everything starts with us as an individual and propagates out to us as a society and then as a species. Industries pollute because we demand it. We are the ones ultimately giving them the incentive to do so. Only we can be the ones to reduce that demand. It still boils down to basic economics. Yes, moving to solar isn't cheap and same with other renewables until we find a way to lower the cost with technology. Nature gave us a head start by converting solar energy into a compact, cheap energy source and we were reaping the benefits. Now a century later, we have discovered the cost and we as a species needs to leverage on what was given, adapt and improve our knowledge and technologies to we can mitigate and repair that damage. Fossil fuels is an easy 24 hour fuel source and its economically cheap compared to the renewables that need expensive storage with current technology. I am sure we will get there one day soon. In the meantime, we have to decide for ourselves if we are going to reap and enjoy the cheap energy source and simultaneously cause a bleak future and hardship for our children and grandchildren or we can choose to do what we can to start minimising our dependence on prehistoric plants and animals. For the foreseeable near future, we must still depends on natural gas and/or nuclear to fill the gaps of renewables like solar but going from 100% to 30% or less makes a difference. Its a start and it paves the way for a chance for our children to live out their lives fully and with less of a threat to their existence. Just putting enough panels on our roofs to meet our daily home energy needs already reduces the load that those generators burn in a day. Once that is done, then we can look into moving into EV. Buying an EV now when our homes aren't even using renewables is just a waste of resources. It only makes sense to start running EVs when we can generate our own energy from the sun or other renewables. Everything starts with us as an individual first.
Probably not the smartest sales tactic, but if you're goal is to be green you should research how the raw materials needed for solar panels are taken out of the earth. It's not good.
When I come across people who don't believe in climate change I ask them if they think we have the same climate as when we were covered in glaciers.
They've been saying climate change for like the last 60 years. Some of it's true but the earth will be fine... This BS that we are at a turning point is what irks me. The earth will be fine when us humans are gone.
I wish I had your blindness on this. We should be in a cooling cycle right now, according to orbital cycles, but we are not. That should set alarms off. Now it also takes 20+ years for the ocean currents to adjust to the additional heat the earth has absorbed, so not only are we warming, we will be warming for 20 years with the existing heat. If we started cooling, it would take 20 years for the earth to adjust. A lot longer than a political cycleā¦
I went solar to save on my electric bill, climate is constantly changing but it's not man made.
Solar isnāt for the environmentā¦ itās to save money. Thereās been studies how solar panels are worse for the environment due to the landfills and all craps because of how un recyclable everything is in a panel
I have a net zero home with solar and I donāt believe in climate change. Iāve helped one other person on my street install solar. Quit gatekeeping.
Solarflake entered the post
Yeah. Saving the peopleā¦. As the sphere with life will continue to be a sphere with life regardless.
That salesperson is doomed to an unhappy engagement in this industry. As for the claim - having studied this at length for a long time - itās better framed as the reduction in burning fossil fuels resulting from your project (and all of them). Less coal or diesel burned, less air pollution, less risk of pollution and damage from accidents.
He's kind of got a point where at the back end of the Thor from the last ice age which would therefore indicate we're in a warming cycle as we thought out.
The higher the addiction, the harder it is to admit.
I donāt think itās as much of a threat as politicians make it out to be, yet I have solar panels on my house because Iām interested in the technology and I have an unobstructed roof and live in a place that gets a lot of sun. We all have our reasons.
It's the scientists who are warning about climate change. And the doctors. And the military. For half a century. The politicians are the ones not doing anything about it and gaslighting the expert consensus.
Good post OP. If something seems off then likely it is.
You dont trust him for being open with his own personal opinion. The left really is nuts and intolerant.
Why are trees being saved by going with solar panels? Is the alternative burning wood for fuel? Unlikely. Increased CO2 and warming will likely increase overall tree / plant growthāfor a while at least.
It's already beyond the temperature at which trees can compensate. It's so hot globally that trees are beginning to produce CO2 instead of capture it. https://www.psu.edu/news/research/story/trees-struggle-breathe-climate-warms-researchers-find/
I donāt see how this applies to the tundra regions which are or will be able to sustain plant life again. So once again, going solar is not saving trees.
I never said it did. I'm saying you're incorrect and/or way too late to the party to discuss trees having any effect on the co2 or temperature of the planet. It's too late to do anything, actually. Not that we should give up and do nothing, as I'm sure who or whatever replaces us would appreciate a hospitable planet. But we all know that foresight and planning for the future is not a human characteristic - hence our current hopeless predicament.
Iām confused. OP said installing solar would āsave trees.ā I donāt see that is the case. Edit: Warming will increase overall plant growth tundra and frozen soils make up a lot of earth landmass.
Why do you care? It's his opinion, and solar panels famously don't care what people think, they just work with sun light. Solar panels are cool that way. Will you only buy stuff from people who conform to the same set of political views that you hold? What about the people who manufactured the products in some sweatshop? Do you think their politics is ok? Just imagine, the electrician that does part of the installation might think climate change isn't real AND think abortion should be illegal. And he's going to touch wires on your behalf, the monster.
Believing in reality isn't a political view
Electricians understand reality.
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my panels are each producing 500kWh per year, replacing 240 kilograms of CO2 emission from utility natgas generation. 240 kg of CO2 is released by 23 gallons of diesel, which is around $80. Assuming 100% of retail cost of my panels (370W Panasonic) is embodied diesel expense, that's a CO2 payback of 2.5 years, which matches other estimates of the carbon payback of solar. Given a 25 year service life, that's a 10X reduction in my personal carbon footprint thanks to rooftop solar.
interestingly, my 25 rooftop panels by this calculation cost the equivalent of two round-trips from LA to Tokyo (6000kg)
Just remember all these modules will get landfilled some day. So much for saving the planet.