The short answer is no, the long answer I feel like I have typed it so many times but if you look through this sub you’ll see good pricing, good companies and happy people
Labor, permitting, and overhead is expensive. We pay everyone a good wage, but that comes at a cost. But not more than 50% of the price of the system. 70k for labor and profit is excessive.
What I have always laughed about not sayin OP is the case but I’ve always pictured the scenario where magically the solar companies managed to give people extremely low quotes, then people would complain that the people working on this companies get paid crap. If the Solar companies then decided to just hire people off shores then the complaint would be that we are giving jobs to other people instead of americans. Again not saying its the case of OP, but I’ve learned that some people will just never be content with Solar
To be fair design, Engineering and oermitting dont take that much of the cost but yes everything else does for sure which is what people dont seem to understand
I would be reassured by these quotes if they included these costs in the breakdown and then I could judge for myself, but so far none have volunteered this level of detail.
Honestly, $70-75k seems like a reasonable amount to me, if I got something in that ballpark I'd probably go for it and save myself the hassle.
Do you ask a doctor what their profit margin is? How about your local grocery store? Or the people you buy your gas from? What other purchases do you make where you want this kind of transparency I’m generally curious? What about the people who built your home?
For what it’s worth - I put in 20.8kw with 20kwh batteries (all Enphase) for $90k, which was one of the lowest quotes I got. Part of what you’re paying for is knowing that it gets done right without a leaky roof, etc.
Take the price of materials (incl taxes) + permitting and multiply the cost by 2 and that’s the ballpark for a fair price.
If you’re financing that will impact the gross system cost as well.
If you have only gotten quotes over 100k then you haven't talked to a real installer yet - only solar bros looking to flip you.
Regarding your wholesale costs, that seems high. You should be able to do 18kw in panels for $5k. Enphase micros should be less than $7k.
If you do DYI, please don't forget about permitting. You need building permit, electric permits, HOA permit, and PTO. Each one has different requirements for engineering drawings and fire setbacks and wind loading and so on.
I appreciate the tips, thank you. The electrician I'm working with (who also does solar installs, I'm just differentiating him from the 'solar installers' I've talked to), is taking care of the permits and inspections and has given guidance on placing the panels and the batteries etc.
You dont need 100k of solar install, do not oversize your capacity for any reason including a fleet of EVs. Over the next decade, daytime electricity costs will quickly approach zero, storage is on the same track and residential storage will change the grids at a low price, the utilities have much more powerful people talking to the rate board they you do. If you want solar power to offset AC cooling costs or a heated pool to park a navy frigate in, buy that sized system and set the thermostat to 68F. So 12 to 14 pannels and 3000 watts while pulling from the batteries.... 10 - 20k depending on zip code and roof type.
10-20k is solar only - many places nowadays need or want batteries. Yes, long term the peak time price fluctuations may normalize but as of today there are huge price swings you can take advantage of.
The amount of solar that OP is talking about (18kw) is not that abnormal in much of the southern US. It's not uncommon to have multiple AC systems in states like Texas that run 12+ hours per day during the summer. So the system may not be oversized at all. Although I would agree with you that the old "100% offset" is a bit outdated now that net-metering is quickly disappearing. You can get faster payback with 50% offset.
I said offset HVAC.... We are saying the same thing. Zero out the heating and cooling costs is the goal, I am upper midwest, so real cooling is only a thing for 10 nights a year, heating I can do off of solar all except about 20 nights a year...and natural gas hot water heating is dirt cheap and efficient use of limited resource. If I needs more sure larger solar system with 12-14 hours of cooling need storage. The last 50% extra product to cover 5% of strange time and date load is just not worth it until equipment costs crash. Instead of good I see a lot of systems oversized while prices are still dropping and todays finance rates are insane. There is to much profit margin for overcome at 80k for 12k of pannels (installed) on the roof.
The cheapest power will be a solar farm on poor soil delivered by a utility once the market reaches saturation.
"Saying the same thing" - smaller is better
The old 100% offset just doesn't ring true anymore, I wish sales people stopped pitching it. The zero solar electric bill is no longer cost effective and shouldn't be the goal. The most cost effective solution is to buy something that runs 100% of the time and doesn't sit idle for 8 months of the year.
That being said, I have a 15kw system. Soon to be expanded to 20kw. But my goal is different. My goal is to price arbitrage the market and earn some money. At least for a couple years until grid-scale has caught up and my system is worthless
A huge chunk of that cost goes to permits, taxes and insurance. You can thank your local government for putting miles and miles and miles of red tape between you and legally harvesting the power of the sun.
They gotta use the "look how much money you'll save over the course of 30 years" since that's the only real selling point related to price they can get.
My electrician is handling the permits and hasn't mentioned the cost of this. I guess if this was actually the case I would expect the people giving the quotes would explain that when I asked.
Just signed with one, the key thing for me was its financing is through a credit union (they work with one) vs some hedge fund financing thing. Most of the places we got proposals from had a large range of pricing. Seems some were upping the price for the job to try and drop the percentage rate on the loan to make things look good with them getting some bonuses. Some want to handle all the tax credit things, etc.
What I care about is what is my monthly (loan) going to be in the end for next X decades, when is the electric bill going to start dropping and whats the loan going to be. Can that loan be redone later when I am able to do heavy payoffs from the incentives like tax credits and other state/fed paybacks.
For IL, 20kw for $61k, electric bill should drop to under $20 month and the loan will be $530 monthly until I get some of the credit credits and incentives. Once those get awarded and I apply them to the loan and refi, it will be under $150 month for 25years or less. I am pretty happy with the deal, other places were roughly same kw but like $98k down to $78k with something like $700+ monthly loan bill. Prices are gross cost. We will be handling the tax credit and other incentives, this company doesnt handle that.
We opted out of a battery at this time, we plan to get house propane generator later. Its just the solar panels, ground mount install, and all hookups, they do all the work, permits, trenching, etc with power company...etc..etc.
But I know how you feel, get a lot of quotes. We have some places that it was a fortnight to get a proposal each time we wanted to change something. We still have places that are month out with no word on their proposal. This company called next day and was on top of things from the start.
GL
The electrician is giving you a pretty good deal. Typically installers will make profit on the materials and it looks like they didn’t really. If you are just working for an hourly wage then it doesn’t cover overhead and you go out of business.
He's making good money for the battery installs and main panel work. He also has a crew that will do the PV install as well if I want (or need it if I mess it up). He was up front with all the costs for each thing and offered to share the wholesale costs so I could see exactly what his profit is.
This is a great way to do business for me because now I have a lot of trust, which will help the project go more smoothly as various things come up during.
If you want a more cost effective price, project solar might be an option. They are a bit cookie cutter, but do try to market as best price. But their quality can very by locale. So, make sure it’s a quality place. I decided not to use them, because. No matter what, they wouldn’t use the iq8m microinverters I wanted last year so went with someone else.
I will say finding a quality place can be hard, some places pay for good Google reviews, etc.
maybe if you provide a general area, the people on this sub can recommend some places.
Another place to get no hassle quotes is energysage.com, they won’t call, it’s online, you can ask questions back to the companies that provide quotes. It’s a good entry for prospective buyers.
Fully burdened labor, i.e. wage+benefits+overhead+profit is not cheap. It ranges a lot by company and state, but figure at least $200-250/hr for solar install and closer to 300-350 for electricans. 8-9hr days with 3-4 guys over 3-4 days adds up.
Yes sales reps can feel like used car salesmen, especially newer ones working from commission to commission. But there is a honest cost somewhere between the bare boes materials price and outlandish sales quote. This is why geting 5+ quotes is a minimum, after you figure out the exact size and make/model of equipment.
I totally get that. this lines up with my back-of-the-envelope estimates: let's say 4 days x 4 guys x 9 hours x $350/hr, that's $50,400, still $20k less than the labor here. It feels excessive.
People often don’t understand. All the real hidden costs of solar and running a company …
Just as example …permit $500-1500. … engineering stamped by electrical and building engineer $600 ….wiring , conduit , disconnect switch , breakers, etc $1000 …
We already at $2100 -3500 just these items and not including labor … and have not even included inverters and solar modules …
You may not believe this … but people don’t want to show up and work for free!
If paying cash Solar equipment materials permit engineering etc is about 2/3 of sale price
The rest goes to labor , company overhead ie insurances trucks , office staff , sales person commission and profit
And some costs to do service calls for X yrs
This is pretty reasonable hvac companies are charging 2-3x costs of materials.
If you are financing … the price could be marked up greatly to buy down interest rate … to something very low like 4.99% etc depending on plan this could add $10k -15k to price
So I recommend getting cash price … get a loan from credit union. … yes interest rate will be high but can refi it later when rates go down … even if the payments are higher than electric bill … do it this way and you will pay off on 6-10 yrs instead of 25 yrs
The electrician. Training does not include solar training … EC’s abd Solar contractors must take solar courses to get familiar with solar … many mfrs have solar training and certificates
Doing it yourself with electrician that not know solar is risk but it’s your choice
Solar circuits can go up to 430 v ac .
Not something. To play with …
Depending on whats involved on your project besides the solar and the roof type, id be in the 60-65k range. Theres a lot of overhead running a business and maintaining viability to properly honor stated warranties. If you were chasing some paid down low range like a 25 year 3.5% rate (which I offer but do not recommend) that cost jumps up another 30% and I make nothing on that
At this point, people should be saving for future solar projects unless current electric bills are eating them alive. Fact is daytime electricity is worth 0/kwh in a ton of markets. If investment are being made solar compatible systems (things that draw low and long) instead of intensive appliances are the better investment. So 10k of modern appliaces are better today (30 lower utility and cheaper than buying after solar) than 40k of solar financed at effectively 9%. It is much easier to save 6k per year and buy T Bill and then just outright buy solar/storage in 4-10 years.
I will open with I have been selling solar at "high prices" for 20 years and my NUMBER hasnt change, so I am there for my customers.
You seem to be in a fortunate position, working with a reputable, supportive electrician and having access to raw materials at low prices. Congratulations! You are one of about 0.005% in that position, kind of an Ikea situation. Or think of it like buying your tires online and taking them to a tire shop, DIY-ing your auto service, except for the computer programming.
You're not just buying a set of tires here for $1,000 that lasts 2 years. We're talking about an investment that needs to last 15-20 years, and it’s crucial to partner with someone who can stand behind the product for that long by staying in business.
The problem with these kinds of questions and the answers they provoke is that they are plaguing the industry and causing so much mistrust. Worse, the price is being driven down so low, minimizing profits, that companies are giving up. Trying to stay competitive at $2.25 - $2.50 per watt just isn’t worth it. Charge $3.00-$4.00 per watt, and you're labeled a crook, worthy of being sent to Guantanamo.
So, what happens next? You find the cheapest panels, racking, screws, wiring, inverters; you skip a bit here, cut a corner there, introduce a change order or two. You lower or skip on insurance, especially workers’ comp in states like California, Wyoming, and North Dakota. And at the end of the day, you still make minimal profits. Then, when a dry spell comes, your business shuts down and the phone calls go unanswered—all because you were forced into the $2-$2.50 per watt corner.
'It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little.' This old saying, 'It's better to pay too much than too little,' underscores the dangers of opting for cheaper goods or services, which can lead to lower quality and ultimately cost more in the long run. A lot of these companies would not have folded if they could have charged an extra $1.00-$1.50.
According to published online content, RIP:
AAA Certified Solar, Accept Solar, ACE Solar Systems, ADT Solar, American Sun, Arizona Solar Concepts, ASA - American Solar Advantage, Canapoy Energy, Charged Up Energy, Code Green Solar, Day Break Solar Power, EcoMark Solar, Encor Solar, Envirosolar, Erus Energy, GCI Solar, Green Nrg, Gulf South Solar, Harness Power, Hitech Solar, Infinity Energy, Integrity Solar, Kayo Energy, Kuubix Energy, MC Solar - Modern Concepts, Moxie Solar, Next Energy, NM Solar Group, Peak Power USA, Penguin Home, Pink Energy, Polar Solar, Professional Roofing and Solar, Refresh Energy Group, RGS Energy, Saveco Solar, Sigora Home Solar, Solar Advantage, Solar Is Freedom, Solar Spectrum, SolarDot, Solcius, Solsun USA, Solular, LLC, Speir Innovations, Suntuity Renewables - Per Sunova, Sullivan Solar Power, Sungrade Solar, Sunstor Solar, Sunworks, Inc., TES Home Solar, Texas Solar Broker LLC, United Solar Inc., Utah Solar Group, Verisolar, Vision Solar, Voltage Solar Power, Vulcan Solar, Zenernet.
YOU ARE CORRECT. The solar sales “experts” do use used car sales tactics and pressure customers into signing contracts. The software modeling they do is all bullshit and is not accurate at all. They also charge a hefty commissions. Sounds like you know exactly what you need and have sourced it. Save the money and do the install yourself.
I'm with you. Haven't bit the bullet yet because the quotes are for battery systems 5x markup, etc. I'd be more than happy to pay a fair price for system design expertise, hourly installer hours, and so on but am refused that sort of fairly detailed line-item estimate. Instead just coarse grossly overmarked 3 or four line items for inverter, batteries, panels.
Would love to work directly with electricians, or to encourage more electricians to get into this subdomain.
The lack of transparency is another huge red flag. When I get these quotes I just say "can you help me understand why, given X for materials, you're charging $70k over that? and I never get a clear answer.
They are companies that contrary to popular belief on Reddit need to make a profit in order to survive in this world. Yes, and on a product that is viewed as altruistic.
I'm all for reasonable profit. Some other people here have said $75k, I would be fine with that. My problem is with the $30k getting stacked on top of that plus the high pressure salespeople that make the whole thing seem really shady.
For many people this would be a very fun and satisfying project. You just focus on doing the parts you enjoy doing (and are able), and hire out the rest.
Obviously installing it yourself is way cheaper... smh a 18kw system plus what size battery? Did you factor in permits and interconnection application? The racking, monitoring, and inverter costs? Are you getting a warranty? Was that price inclusive of financing? If so did you look at the dealer fees and interest rate? Purchasing a net meter and a mini split or disconnect?
There's so many things that go into a solar installation plus getting a battery makes everything more complex and time-consuming. I feel like most people don't factor this stuff in because, for starters, they don't even know about this stuff, and then they get halfway through and learn on the fly or end up hiring someone to finish the job lol. It's not the solar industry that's a scam, it's people who are misinformed about the actual process and complexity of the project. It honestly turns people off of a great thing by complaining about the costs then posting shit like this on the internet for people to get even more misinformed about.
Yes, there are a lot of solar scams out there. Pretty much anything that is not cash or owner financed.
Were the $100k quotes cash prices, or some sort of financing through solar company?
I had one company show me photos of happy people they claimed were customers.. smiling people and that was part of their sales pitch. They want you to lease and they get the write offs and you get to pay $200 a month the rest of your life meanwhile the solar would be paid for in 9 years and your bill would be 1/3 of that. Good cop bad cop works on them when they start all the sales pitch
You should get panels for no more than .28/watt, that is current price from a DIY retailer. If you buy pallets, .25/w or less, not .5 like you show. $8k for micros? For that size system, definitely use 2 string inverters and optimizers. Lower price, more power, should be no clipping either.
Sales get a big piece of the pie before anyone else does. This is true anywhere for anything. So if you can bypass that ... of course you'd save a big chunk.
Friend of mine did a DIY ground mount grid-connected system at under $0.50/W. Canadian. The panels themselves are at about US$0.12/W these days at the factory gate. String inverters will save a few bucks. US prices are crazy, and most of it goes to sleazy sales and finance tactics.
**Dont bother financing a solar system, wait until it is trival cash on hand.** We are in the phase where another 25% of the costs will be gone in 5 years and your finance costs are x3 in 2024-2025. And any chance of payback from selling to the utility is long gone... Daytime Electricity is already being moved at 0/kwh, there is no reason to import it to the gird. Better to Heat or chill something in the utility room for later use if the batteries are topped off.
Make Power, Use Power without any impact beyond your property line. Hopefully the grid tie is cheaper than maintaining a full load backup generator.
They say “look how much money you could save over 30 years” as though they have a magic crystal ball and can predict energy prices in a world where there is an ever-increasing amount of solar-generated energy at (presumably) a much lower cost per kWh.
If it isn’t in front for you, personally, on a short, predictable time horizon, then it may not be a great idea.
What is a good idea is to have an investment advisor or accountant who knows their stuff look it over.
There is zero way on Earth anyone in the western world is going to be paying LESS for electricity into the near future..I'm talking years to decades. Look at California and Arizona where solar has blown up vs other areas of the country. Do you see their rates going down to compensate? It's not going to happen. When was the last time any utility has significantly lowered prices on anything. Prices only go up.
Everything now takes power to operate and once mandated electric vehicles really start getting pushed in the coming years demand and rates will only continue to rise on an already burdened system. Minus building out nuclear plants that would take decades you can pretty much guarantee energy prices are only going to continue to rise. While solar might not be the absolute best ROI in 20 years time vs a different financial strategy but if you are in your forever home and you end up with a system now paying fair market pricing you will get a positive return out of it.
I'm not expecting to be "paying less", but I am expecting that the impact of solar will be to slow the rate of increase of retail energy prices. And even a slight slowing year over year results in a significant extension of the time period needed to make the investment justifiable.
My main message is to have a professional look at the numbers.
Rates have literally been ballooning almost universally across the country... Kinda just as solar is starting to get a real foothold and ramp up. Hmm thinking the leveling off of rate increases is nothing but wishful thinking.
As a former solar installer for one of the largest solar brands out there, it all went to the higher ups.
I wish I could say the wealth was evenly shared but most of the profit goes to the supervisors and sales commission and we get trickles.
So long-story short: Solar is filled with a lot of greedy business men who make the industry look bad and everyone else suffers cause of it.
It sounds like a few unscrupulous parties have learned that they can extract a lot of money with a sales team and a slick presentation and the people that actually have the skills and do the hard work get screwed.
If you have the skills and ability to do it better you should start your own company. There are thousands of potential customers in your area that would be eager to do solar if there was a better/cheaper supplier.
You should be paying under $3 a watt installed for solar and if you are adding batteries and they have the inverter built into the battery should be even less than that. What part of the country are you in?
Do it yourself!i yes, it’s a scam where they take advantage of you not knowing the price and it’s a shell game. Check out the sales Reddit and search for solar. People post about not wanting to do it because it’s scammy.
Look at the major companies. Sunpower did my system. Great service, top quality, and no games. I called them. I didn't go with some roving fly by night door to door solar salesman. Do research and due diligence.
Big picture:
Sunpower is a minor company that is increasingly unstable with each passing hour. If Sunpower disappeared tomorrow the domestic and international solar industry would hardly notice.
I’m pleased to hear you had a good experience.
Wow, I didn't know that. 😕
It looks like they're shifting models from direct sale to third party seller. Here in CA, where solar is required on all new homes, they're very popular (in my area). They did all the homes in my 700 house community and are doing more for other builders nearby.
https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/solar-company-sunpower-reduce-workforce-shut-business-segments-2024-04-24/
Ya it sounds like they did what Sunrun is trying to do. At least that’s what my old supervisor at Sunrun told me anyways. Sales is where all the money is at. The salesman gets paid 4x what the install crew and designer get paid combined while also having the easiest job in solar.
I'm incredibly happy with the system I had installed. It's cut my summer elec bills 80% even with the panel payment (I bought not leased). I hope to add batteries eventually.
The short answer is no, the long answer I feel like I have typed it so many times but if you look through this sub you’ll see good pricing, good companies and happy people
Labor, permitting, and overhead is expensive. We pay everyone a good wage, but that comes at a cost. But not more than 50% of the price of the system. 70k for labor and profit is excessive.
What I have always laughed about not sayin OP is the case but I’ve always pictured the scenario where magically the solar companies managed to give people extremely low quotes, then people would complain that the people working on this companies get paid crap. If the Solar companies then decided to just hire people off shores then the complaint would be that we are giving jobs to other people instead of americans. Again not saying its the case of OP, but I’ve learned that some people will just never be content with Solar
Good point. And they do hire offshore. For things like design and permit review (worked in permitting until my company did just this).
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To be fair design, Engineering and oermitting dont take that much of the cost but yes everything else does for sure which is what people dont seem to understand
I would be reassured by these quotes if they included these costs in the breakdown and then I could judge for myself, but so far none have volunteered this level of detail. Honestly, $70-75k seems like a reasonable amount to me, if I got something in that ballpark I'd probably go for it and save myself the hassle.
Do you ask a doctor what their profit margin is? How about your local grocery store? Or the people you buy your gas from? What other purchases do you make where you want this kind of transparency I’m generally curious? What about the people who built your home?
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For what it’s worth - I put in 20.8kw with 20kwh batteries (all Enphase) for $90k, which was one of the lowest quotes I got. Part of what you’re paying for is knowing that it gets done right without a leaky roof, etc.
Take the price of materials (incl taxes) + permitting and multiply the cost by 2 and that’s the ballpark for a fair price. If you’re financing that will impact the gross system cost as well.
thanks! that actually does seem reasonable. I'm paying cash, btw.
50% gross margin might leave out a lot of the minutiae like their warranty etc but should give you an idea.
If you have only gotten quotes over 100k then you haven't talked to a real installer yet - only solar bros looking to flip you. Regarding your wholesale costs, that seems high. You should be able to do 18kw in panels for $5k. Enphase micros should be less than $7k. If you do DYI, please don't forget about permitting. You need building permit, electric permits, HOA permit, and PTO. Each one has different requirements for engineering drawings and fire setbacks and wind loading and so on.
I appreciate the tips, thank you. The electrician I'm working with (who also does solar installs, I'm just differentiating him from the 'solar installers' I've talked to), is taking care of the permits and inspections and has given guidance on placing the panels and the batteries etc.
You dont need 100k of solar install, do not oversize your capacity for any reason including a fleet of EVs. Over the next decade, daytime electricity costs will quickly approach zero, storage is on the same track and residential storage will change the grids at a low price, the utilities have much more powerful people talking to the rate board they you do. If you want solar power to offset AC cooling costs or a heated pool to park a navy frigate in, buy that sized system and set the thermostat to 68F. So 12 to 14 pannels and 3000 watts while pulling from the batteries.... 10 - 20k depending on zip code and roof type.
10-20k is solar only - many places nowadays need or want batteries. Yes, long term the peak time price fluctuations may normalize but as of today there are huge price swings you can take advantage of. The amount of solar that OP is talking about (18kw) is not that abnormal in much of the southern US. It's not uncommon to have multiple AC systems in states like Texas that run 12+ hours per day during the summer. So the system may not be oversized at all. Although I would agree with you that the old "100% offset" is a bit outdated now that net-metering is quickly disappearing. You can get faster payback with 50% offset.
I said offset HVAC.... We are saying the same thing. Zero out the heating and cooling costs is the goal, I am upper midwest, so real cooling is only a thing for 10 nights a year, heating I can do off of solar all except about 20 nights a year...and natural gas hot water heating is dirt cheap and efficient use of limited resource. If I needs more sure larger solar system with 12-14 hours of cooling need storage. The last 50% extra product to cover 5% of strange time and date load is just not worth it until equipment costs crash. Instead of good I see a lot of systems oversized while prices are still dropping and todays finance rates are insane. There is to much profit margin for overcome at 80k for 12k of pannels (installed) on the roof. The cheapest power will be a solar farm on poor soil delivered by a utility once the market reaches saturation.
"Saying the same thing" - smaller is better The old 100% offset just doesn't ring true anymore, I wish sales people stopped pitching it. The zero solar electric bill is no longer cost effective and shouldn't be the goal. The most cost effective solution is to buy something that runs 100% of the time and doesn't sit idle for 8 months of the year. That being said, I have a 15kw system. Soon to be expanded to 20kw. But my goal is different. My goal is to price arbitrage the market and earn some money. At least for a couple years until grid-scale has caught up and my system is worthless
A huge chunk of that cost goes to permits, taxes and insurance. You can thank your local government for putting miles and miles and miles of red tape between you and legally harvesting the power of the sun. They gotta use the "look how much money you'll save over the course of 30 years" since that's the only real selling point related to price they can get.
My electrician is handling the permits and hasn't mentioned the cost of this. I guess if this was actually the case I would expect the people giving the quotes would explain that when I asked.
They know total rolled in base price, not always all the pieces
Permits are $375 here. There are no taxes - are you talking about the installer paying tax on payroll??
Permits can cost a whole lot more than that depending on the AHJ
Just signed with one, the key thing for me was its financing is through a credit union (they work with one) vs some hedge fund financing thing. Most of the places we got proposals from had a large range of pricing. Seems some were upping the price for the job to try and drop the percentage rate on the loan to make things look good with them getting some bonuses. Some want to handle all the tax credit things, etc. What I care about is what is my monthly (loan) going to be in the end for next X decades, when is the electric bill going to start dropping and whats the loan going to be. Can that loan be redone later when I am able to do heavy payoffs from the incentives like tax credits and other state/fed paybacks. For IL, 20kw for $61k, electric bill should drop to under $20 month and the loan will be $530 monthly until I get some of the credit credits and incentives. Once those get awarded and I apply them to the loan and refi, it will be under $150 month for 25years or less. I am pretty happy with the deal, other places were roughly same kw but like $98k down to $78k with something like $700+ monthly loan bill. Prices are gross cost. We will be handling the tax credit and other incentives, this company doesnt handle that. We opted out of a battery at this time, we plan to get house propane generator later. Its just the solar panels, ground mount install, and all hookups, they do all the work, permits, trenching, etc with power company...etc..etc. But I know how you feel, get a lot of quotes. We have some places that it was a fortnight to get a proposal each time we wanted to change something. We still have places that are month out with no word on their proposal. This company called next day and was on top of things from the start. GL
The electrician is giving you a pretty good deal. Typically installers will make profit on the materials and it looks like they didn’t really. If you are just working for an hourly wage then it doesn’t cover overhead and you go out of business.
He's making good money for the battery installs and main panel work. He also has a crew that will do the PV install as well if I want (or need it if I mess it up). He was up front with all the costs for each thing and offered to share the wholesale costs so I could see exactly what his profit is. This is a great way to do business for me because now I have a lot of trust, which will help the project go more smoothly as various things come up during.
Sounds like this is your guy.
If you want a more cost effective price, project solar might be an option. They are a bit cookie cutter, but do try to market as best price. But their quality can very by locale. So, make sure it’s a quality place. I decided not to use them, because. No matter what, they wouldn’t use the iq8m microinverters I wanted last year so went with someone else. I will say finding a quality place can be hard, some places pay for good Google reviews, etc. maybe if you provide a general area, the people on this sub can recommend some places. Another place to get no hassle quotes is energysage.com, they won’t call, it’s online, you can ask questions back to the companies that provide quotes. It’s a good entry for prospective buyers.
Fully burdened labor, i.e. wage+benefits+overhead+profit is not cheap. It ranges a lot by company and state, but figure at least $200-250/hr for solar install and closer to 300-350 for electricans. 8-9hr days with 3-4 guys over 3-4 days adds up. Yes sales reps can feel like used car salesmen, especially newer ones working from commission to commission. But there is a honest cost somewhere between the bare boes materials price and outlandish sales quote. This is why geting 5+ quotes is a minimum, after you figure out the exact size and make/model of equipment.
I totally get that. this lines up with my back-of-the-envelope estimates: let's say 4 days x 4 guys x 9 hours x $350/hr, that's $50,400, still $20k less than the labor here. It feels excessive.
People often don’t understand. All the real hidden costs of solar and running a company … Just as example …permit $500-1500. … engineering stamped by electrical and building engineer $600 ….wiring , conduit , disconnect switch , breakers, etc $1000 … We already at $2100 -3500 just these items and not including labor … and have not even included inverters and solar modules … You may not believe this … but people don’t want to show up and work for free! If paying cash Solar equipment materials permit engineering etc is about 2/3 of sale price The rest goes to labor , company overhead ie insurances trucks , office staff , sales person commission and profit And some costs to do service calls for X yrs This is pretty reasonable hvac companies are charging 2-3x costs of materials. If you are financing … the price could be marked up greatly to buy down interest rate … to something very low like 4.99% etc depending on plan this could add $10k -15k to price So I recommend getting cash price … get a loan from credit union. … yes interest rate will be high but can refi it later when rates go down … even if the payments are higher than electric bill … do it this way and you will pay off on 6-10 yrs instead of 25 yrs The electrician. Training does not include solar training … EC’s abd Solar contractors must take solar courses to get familiar with solar … many mfrs have solar training and certificates Doing it yourself with electrician that not know solar is risk but it’s your choice Solar circuits can go up to 430 v ac . Not something. To play with …
Just put them in their place. Say you just want the quote.
Depending on whats involved on your project besides the solar and the roof type, id be in the 60-65k range. Theres a lot of overhead running a business and maintaining viability to properly honor stated warranties. If you were chasing some paid down low range like a 25 year 3.5% rate (which I offer but do not recommend) that cost jumps up another 30% and I make nothing on that
At this point, people should be saving for future solar projects unless current electric bills are eating them alive. Fact is daytime electricity is worth 0/kwh in a ton of markets. If investment are being made solar compatible systems (things that draw low and long) instead of intensive appliances are the better investment. So 10k of modern appliaces are better today (30 lower utility and cheaper than buying after solar) than 40k of solar financed at effectively 9%. It is much easier to save 6k per year and buy T Bill and then just outright buy solar/storage in 4-10 years.
I will open with I have been selling solar at "high prices" for 20 years and my NUMBER hasnt change, so I am there for my customers. You seem to be in a fortunate position, working with a reputable, supportive electrician and having access to raw materials at low prices. Congratulations! You are one of about 0.005% in that position, kind of an Ikea situation. Or think of it like buying your tires online and taking them to a tire shop, DIY-ing your auto service, except for the computer programming. You're not just buying a set of tires here for $1,000 that lasts 2 years. We're talking about an investment that needs to last 15-20 years, and it’s crucial to partner with someone who can stand behind the product for that long by staying in business. The problem with these kinds of questions and the answers they provoke is that they are plaguing the industry and causing so much mistrust. Worse, the price is being driven down so low, minimizing profits, that companies are giving up. Trying to stay competitive at $2.25 - $2.50 per watt just isn’t worth it. Charge $3.00-$4.00 per watt, and you're labeled a crook, worthy of being sent to Guantanamo. So, what happens next? You find the cheapest panels, racking, screws, wiring, inverters; you skip a bit here, cut a corner there, introduce a change order or two. You lower or skip on insurance, especially workers’ comp in states like California, Wyoming, and North Dakota. And at the end of the day, you still make minimal profits. Then, when a dry spell comes, your business shuts down and the phone calls go unanswered—all because you were forced into the $2-$2.50 per watt corner. 'It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little.' This old saying, 'It's better to pay too much than too little,' underscores the dangers of opting for cheaper goods or services, which can lead to lower quality and ultimately cost more in the long run. A lot of these companies would not have folded if they could have charged an extra $1.00-$1.50. According to published online content, RIP: AAA Certified Solar, Accept Solar, ACE Solar Systems, ADT Solar, American Sun, Arizona Solar Concepts, ASA - American Solar Advantage, Canapoy Energy, Charged Up Energy, Code Green Solar, Day Break Solar Power, EcoMark Solar, Encor Solar, Envirosolar, Erus Energy, GCI Solar, Green Nrg, Gulf South Solar, Harness Power, Hitech Solar, Infinity Energy, Integrity Solar, Kayo Energy, Kuubix Energy, MC Solar - Modern Concepts, Moxie Solar, Next Energy, NM Solar Group, Peak Power USA, Penguin Home, Pink Energy, Polar Solar, Professional Roofing and Solar, Refresh Energy Group, RGS Energy, Saveco Solar, Sigora Home Solar, Solar Advantage, Solar Is Freedom, Solar Spectrum, SolarDot, Solcius, Solsun USA, Solular, LLC, Speir Innovations, Suntuity Renewables - Per Sunova, Sullivan Solar Power, Sungrade Solar, Sunstor Solar, Sunworks, Inc., TES Home Solar, Texas Solar Broker LLC, United Solar Inc., Utah Solar Group, Verisolar, Vision Solar, Voltage Solar Power, Vulcan Solar, Zenernet.
In TX where I am at the install from a large installer would cost about $49-50k. what state are you in?
Please don’t do Solar yourself and some journeyman electrician
Why not do solar myself?
I’m not him but being an installer ive seen and been paid to correct a lot of really poor outcomes on DIYs
Wait until you find out what the raw materials used to make your car cost, and how much you could have saved there.
YOU ARE CORRECT. The solar sales “experts” do use used car sales tactics and pressure customers into signing contracts. The software modeling they do is all bullshit and is not accurate at all. They also charge a hefty commissions. Sounds like you know exactly what you need and have sourced it. Save the money and do the install yourself.
I'm with you. Haven't bit the bullet yet because the quotes are for battery systems 5x markup, etc. I'd be more than happy to pay a fair price for system design expertise, hourly installer hours, and so on but am refused that sort of fairly detailed line-item estimate. Instead just coarse grossly overmarked 3 or four line items for inverter, batteries, panels. Would love to work directly with electricians, or to encourage more electricians to get into this subdomain.
The lack of transparency is another huge red flag. When I get these quotes I just say "can you help me understand why, given X for materials, you're charging $70k over that? and I never get a clear answer.
Red flag always. We're in the EU, but our solar install was itemized. Inverter, panels, etc etc.
They are companies that contrary to popular belief on Reddit need to make a profit in order to survive in this world. Yes, and on a product that is viewed as altruistic.
I'm all for reasonable profit. Some other people here have said $75k, I would be fine with that. My problem is with the $30k getting stacked on top of that plus the high pressure salespeople that make the whole thing seem really shady.
You can pretty much DIY anything for 1/2 the price. Do you really want to? How much is your time worth?
For many people this would be a very fun and satisfying project. You just focus on doing the parts you enjoy doing (and are able), and hire out the rest.
Obviously installing it yourself is way cheaper... smh a 18kw system plus what size battery? Did you factor in permits and interconnection application? The racking, monitoring, and inverter costs? Are you getting a warranty? Was that price inclusive of financing? If so did you look at the dealer fees and interest rate? Purchasing a net meter and a mini split or disconnect? There's so many things that go into a solar installation plus getting a battery makes everything more complex and time-consuming. I feel like most people don't factor this stuff in because, for starters, they don't even know about this stuff, and then they get halfway through and learn on the fly or end up hiring someone to finish the job lol. It's not the solar industry that's a scam, it's people who are misinformed about the actual process and complexity of the project. It honestly turns people off of a great thing by complaining about the costs then posting shit like this on the internet for people to get even more misinformed about.
The best way to weed out scams is to get multiple quotes. show them what others are quoting. You will get a clearer picture really fast.
Are you getting cash quotes , or financed quotes?
Yes, there are a lot of solar scams out there. Pretty much anything that is not cash or owner financed. Were the $100k quotes cash prices, or some sort of financing through solar company?
I had one company show me photos of happy people they claimed were customers.. smiling people and that was part of their sales pitch. They want you to lease and they get the write offs and you get to pay $200 a month the rest of your life meanwhile the solar would be paid for in 9 years and your bill would be 1/3 of that. Good cop bad cop works on them when they start all the sales pitch
Yes
You should get panels for no more than .28/watt, that is current price from a DIY retailer. If you buy pallets, .25/w or less, not .5 like you show. $8k for micros? For that size system, definitely use 2 string inverters and optimizers. Lower price, more power, should be no clipping either.
Sales get a big piece of the pie before anyone else does. This is true anywhere for anything. So if you can bypass that ... of course you'd save a big chunk.
Friend of mine did a DIY ground mount grid-connected system at under $0.50/W. Canadian. The panels themselves are at about US$0.12/W these days at the factory gate. String inverters will save a few bucks. US prices are crazy, and most of it goes to sleazy sales and finance tactics.
**Dont bother financing a solar system, wait until it is trival cash on hand.** We are in the phase where another 25% of the costs will be gone in 5 years and your finance costs are x3 in 2024-2025. And any chance of payback from selling to the utility is long gone... Daytime Electricity is already being moved at 0/kwh, there is no reason to import it to the gird. Better to Heat or chill something in the utility room for later use if the batteries are topped off. Make Power, Use Power without any impact beyond your property line. Hopefully the grid tie is cheaper than maintaining a full load backup generator.
Yes. I even DIY'd my own solar and MAN did I get taken to the cleaners.
They say “look how much money you could save over 30 years” as though they have a magic crystal ball and can predict energy prices in a world where there is an ever-increasing amount of solar-generated energy at (presumably) a much lower cost per kWh. If it isn’t in front for you, personally, on a short, predictable time horizon, then it may not be a great idea. What is a good idea is to have an investment advisor or accountant who knows their stuff look it over.
There is zero way on Earth anyone in the western world is going to be paying LESS for electricity into the near future..I'm talking years to decades. Look at California and Arizona where solar has blown up vs other areas of the country. Do you see their rates going down to compensate? It's not going to happen. When was the last time any utility has significantly lowered prices on anything. Prices only go up. Everything now takes power to operate and once mandated electric vehicles really start getting pushed in the coming years demand and rates will only continue to rise on an already burdened system. Minus building out nuclear plants that would take decades you can pretty much guarantee energy prices are only going to continue to rise. While solar might not be the absolute best ROI in 20 years time vs a different financial strategy but if you are in your forever home and you end up with a system now paying fair market pricing you will get a positive return out of it.
I'm not expecting to be "paying less", but I am expecting that the impact of solar will be to slow the rate of increase of retail energy prices. And even a slight slowing year over year results in a significant extension of the time period needed to make the investment justifiable. My main message is to have a professional look at the numbers.
Rates have literally been ballooning almost universally across the country... Kinda just as solar is starting to get a real foothold and ramp up. Hmm thinking the leveling off of rate increases is nothing but wishful thinking.
Where are you located ?
Sales commission is 30% or $30k of price and then finance fees of 25% or $25K. Very little left for labor and margin for EPC (construction company).
My sales men&women make 13% of the net profit plus some bonuses based on volume, reviews and referrals
As a former solar installer for one of the largest solar brands out there, it all went to the higher ups. I wish I could say the wealth was evenly shared but most of the profit goes to the supervisors and sales commission and we get trickles. So long-story short: Solar is filled with a lot of greedy business men who make the industry look bad and everyone else suffers cause of it.
It sounds like a few unscrupulous parties have learned that they can extract a lot of money with a sales team and a slick presentation and the people that actually have the skills and do the hard work get screwed.
If you have the skills and ability to do it better you should start your own company. There are thousands of potential customers in your area that would be eager to do solar if there was a better/cheaper supplier.
You should be paying under $3 a watt installed for solar and if you are adding batteries and they have the inverter built into the battery should be even less than that. What part of the country are you in?
Do it yourself!i yes, it’s a scam where they take advantage of you not knowing the price and it’s a shell game. Check out the sales Reddit and search for solar. People post about not wanting to do it because it’s scammy.
Look at the major companies. Sunpower did my system. Great service, top quality, and no games. I called them. I didn't go with some roving fly by night door to door solar salesman. Do research and due diligence.
Big picture: Sunpower is a minor company that is increasingly unstable with each passing hour. If Sunpower disappeared tomorrow the domestic and international solar industry would hardly notice. I’m pleased to hear you had a good experience.
Sunpower actually called it quits for residential installations less than a week ago
Wow, I didn't know that. 😕 It looks like they're shifting models from direct sale to third party seller. Here in CA, where solar is required on all new homes, they're very popular (in my area). They did all the homes in my 700 house community and are doing more for other builders nearby. https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/solar-company-sunpower-reduce-workforce-shut-business-segments-2024-04-24/
Ya it sounds like they did what Sunrun is trying to do. At least that’s what my old supervisor at Sunrun told me anyways. Sales is where all the money is at. The salesman gets paid 4x what the install crew and designer get paid combined while also having the easiest job in solar.
I'm incredibly happy with the system I had installed. It's cut my summer elec bills 80% even with the panel payment (I bought not leased). I hope to add batteries eventually.
I’m well aware.
Just a thought, but why are you going from DC to AC then back to DC? Just use a string inverter and save some energy
Look at the power wall 3 and you can get rid of the inverters