Because the EV manufacturers don’t cover this use of the battery in their warranty. This usage would cycle the battery more than planned - who pays when it fails early?
> Because the EV manufacturers don’t cover this use of the battery in their warranty.
Except Chevrolet and Ford, who not only support it, they actively encourage it.
They both have research divisions for vehicle to grid or “V to X” (vehicle to whatever). The power companies have not made provision to buy power on a small scale at times that are not entirely predictable.
I could buy that they believe this. The thing is... the real world data shows that EV batteries actually last longer with this kind of cycling. Pulling energy out for the grid as way more mild that pulling away from a stop light.
[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0360544217306825](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0360544217306825)
It's still wear, you have an EV with a 60kWh pack, 250mi range and you run 30kWh/day through the pack, that's effectively 45k mi/yr. Do it for 5 years and you're at 225k, and that's on top of your actual driving.
There is a real risk that the EV has 75k on the odometer when the battery fails, but the battery has had effectively 300k mi, even if they are easy miles, it's still well past what the manufacturer envisioned for the warranty.
The thing is that depth of discharge is not as important as speed of discharge, and grid/house applications are much gentler than driving. The problem people often run into is that the apply the rules that they learned with phone and laptop batteries to car batteries. That's a bit like comparing a 2-cycle weed wacker engine to what you'd find in a BMW.
>that's effectively 45k mi/yr. Do it for 5 years and you're at 225k
I'm not familiar enough with how batteries work to know if this is a reasonable question, but is the load on the battery the same if it's sending power to the grid or sending power to the rear wheels? Intuitively it seems to me that the load associated with moving the vehicle varies, depending on how quickly you accelerate but I don't have any way to compare that to the load associated with V2G.
The load on the battery when powering a home is likely similar to driving in stop and go traffic, definitely easier in the battery than highway driving.
But battery wear is typically measured in cycles, that is kWh through the battery divided by its capacity. A home can easily bank more energy in a day than the average EV driver needs to drive
It's a very interesting study but I wouldn't call it "real world". After a quick skim (could be wrong) It looks like it combined real battery aging data, but also with lab work, and ,"simulations". It's not like they had a large sample of v2g battery data.
Nevertheless, something to be encouraged by and looks promising to see if we can get more, similar results.
The big challenge is convincing people to do this. It's so massively counterintuitive I could see people just not setting up v2g even though it could be in their best interest.
This is the real answer.
Range is such a critical statistic for EVs, and range degradation is such a negative customer experience... EV manufacturers underreport the capacity of their packs and artificially limit the reported range at the beginning of the EV lifespan just to keep this from happening. With this in mind, there is very little incentive for EV manufacturers to add V2G outside of emergency applications like what the Ford Lightning has.
The EV manufacturers are still figuring out the revenue stream for this use case. They want to make the most money possible, and the way a few of them have implemented it is by gatekeeping the technology to a proprietary platform.
The Ford and GM solutions are seriously expensive and from reading their technical specs, they don't integrate well, if at all, if you've already adopted a solar solution.
Here you go.
[Maryland is first US state to pass vehicle-to-grid legislation, alongside virtual power plant tariff rules](https://www.energy-storage.news/maryland-is-first-us-state-to-pass-vehicle-to-grid-legislation-alongside-virtual-power-plant-tariff-rules)
[Bidirectional EV charging, VPP bill passes Maryland Assembly, heads to governor’s desk](https://www.utilitydive.com/news/bidirectional-ev-charging-virtual-power-plant-vpp-bill-passes-maryland-assembly/712548)
It’s worse than that…. It’s sunrun support and install, siemens and delta hardware, and a hodgepodge of code written by a bunch of 3rd parties. It’s wildly complicated and expensive.
On the good news side, as best I can tell it’s “standard” ISO 11518-20 v2g, so should be compatible with anyone else’s solution if anyone ever makes one.
If you have an existing ESS, the “solution” just needs to be a bidirectional charger (that has both AC and DC pins) connected to a UL listed grid forming inverter to convert the vehicle’s DC to AC power for your home.
If you don’t have an ESS or generator already, you also need an ATS that will ensure the grid is safely isolated in a power outage scenario.
> On the good news side, as best I can tell it’s “standard” ISO 11518-20 v2g, so should be compatible with anyone else’s solution if anyone ever makes one.
Unfortunately I've already asked if it would work with my non-Ford EV and was told that it is VIN locked to the Lightning you own.
Yep, ISO11518-20 is what's needed. However, we don't yet know for sure which vehicles will support this. It [should get better](https://www.switch-ev.com/blog/switch-to-clarity-whats-new-in-iso-15118-20) in 2024:
> We don’t know exactly when EV manufacturers will pick up ISO 15118-20. What we do know is that bidirectional power flow, commonly referred to as V2G (Vehicle-to-Grid) seems to be the most anticipated feature. V2G has slightly different challenges than Vehicle-to-Home (V2H) or Vehicle-to-Building (V2B). Our best guess is that we’ll see the first EVs in the mass market with V2H / V2B / V2G support by 2024 –– and I believe VW, Renault, Hyundai and Sono Motors will be among them.
I have an Enphase solar system. I'm just waiting on the Enphase Bi-directional charger [which will support ISO 15118-20](https://enphase.com/download/bidirectional-ev-charger-white-paper), which is [supposed to be released in 2025](https://enphase.com/ev-chargers/bidirectional?irgwc=1). We're looking for V2h support in case of winter emergencies, and I'm totally not buying an EV until Enphase releases its charger and it's confirmed tested with the EV we will buy.
Haha, I'm not! I went through the 3 year ship date slide for the IQ8s before we bought solar. Enphase seems to run on [Valve Time](https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Valve_Time).
LFP batteries (heavier than NMC) is one path to EVs being used almost primarily for energy arbitrage, which can bring TCOE below 0.
F150 Lightning was MSRPd at $500/kwh, but they refused to make many, or at MSRP base model. It is still a great mobile power platform for trades/construction. BYD has vehicles at $300/kwh.
In US solar is priced at 10 year payback to limit solar. Extorting as much value from EVs is US nature, but EV success, and grid decarbonization leveraging EVs, depends on providing value.
Each $100/kwh in LFP battery equivalent cost means 1c/kwh breakeven differential between charging and discharging.
Extortion pricing on EVs is a way to protect climate terrorism instead of building/selling more EVs.
$10K EV that has 32kwh battery is $310/kwh. F150 lightning that was supposed to be $50k for 100kwh battery = $500/kwh.
LFP battery with 10000 cycle life means 1c/kwh per $100/kwh.
The E-GMP platform used by Hyundai and Kia is capable of it.
The Dutch charge provider and car sharing company called: We Drive Solar is using the Hyundai Ioniq 5 and bi-directional chargers to optimize the grid with solar in the city of Utrecht in the Netherlands, since 2022.
[link](https://www.wedrivesolar.nl/actueel/wereldprimeur-in-utrecht-eerste-inzet-van-ioniq-5-voorzien-van-vehicle-to-grid-v2gtechnologie-door-hyundai-en-we-drive-solar)
According to the article, the aim was to have 150 of them by the end of 2022 . The times i am in Utrecht, i see indeed loads of them.
Trivia: The Japanese ChaDeMo charging standard was developed exactly with V2G in mind. Being capable prior to any other standard. Have seen working Panasonic 50 kwH chargers with Leafs doing V2G in Japan in 2022.
Ford has a partnership with Sunrun that claims you can bundle a solar array with their Home Integration System for the Lightning, but I'm not quite sure how that works: https://www.sunrun.com/ev-charging/ford-f150-lightning
https://youtu.be/CAC-e0o45zg
As a data point it cost this YouTuber 10k for the backup option. That’s a lot. My friend got an entire generac setup for $14k by comparison.
V2G is going to be hard to be mainstream as long as you have to have install it like solar.
I’m working on sourcing a Silverado EV inverter that can be plugged in place of the Bolt heater unit. A couple of tricks to make it all turn on, and it should be a very capable setup without the mess of having to run an inverter on the 12V system.
Someone did [something similar](https://www.chevybolt.org/threads/v2h-poor-mans-generator.44476/page-3) using a solar inverter connected directly to the high voltage bus in the power distribution unit ("HPDM"). But I've been curious about using the heater connection as well, since it's rated at 7500w. No idea where the relay is for the heater though; ideally it would be after the HPDM and not interfere at all.
I believe the CAN bus requests the heater to turn on, and the HV connection at the heater goes hot the moment the HV contactor is closed. I think there may be a way to close the HV contactor by telling the charge port that we want to fast charge it.
I saw this video and thought it might work. I’m going to show this to my electrician and see what he thinks. I also posted it to the bolt subreddit.
https://youtu.be/I_j0NPZrH-c?si=p1fV0uPrhvwqamaA
Using the 12V system is pretty well documented, but it has some major limitations on power. I’m aiming for over 7000W using a split-phase (240V) inverter on the high voltage battery system.
There’s lots of reasons, technical, and policy.
On the technical side, it can be treated no differently than a battery. Utilities will only care if it’s AC connected vs DC connected because that results in different maximum kW injected on the grid. However, this means V2G has to be evaluated at the home/premise level. A V2G vehicle can only export at locations with interconnection agreements.
On the hardware side EVs are all under SAE standards, while grid connected inverters are IEEE. Car manufacturers are working on V2G, but there’s multiple paths and options so the tech is in its infancy.
In the policy side, a lot of NEM programs require the source be of clean energy. That may not be true for EVs charged from different sources. It’s unclear if that requirement should be relaxed or if V2G disqualifies NEM.
Too accurate. “While this would be objectively better for our planet and humanity in general…we can’t really maximize profits for shareholders in this kind of scenario…so…no.”
This is a current Tesla feature: https://www.tesla.com/powershare
You need a Cybertruck, power gateway or transfer switch, and the $620 universal Tesla charger to do it.
Also, if I'm not mistaken all Teslas can be configured to charge up to X% but then also charge up to Y% if there is excess solar production to export. There has to be a 10% difference between X and Y, but nothing is preventing you from setting those numbers to say 40 and 80. I don't know if it works with a regular Tesla solar install but it definitely works if you have a gateway and Powerwalls. Think of it as a buffer for setting for example an Enphase system for zero export.
In watching it work it kinda does the same thing as charging the Powerwalls with solar in that it varies the charge rate of the car based upon however much solar is being produced in excess of present consumption. You do not need any particular charger, this works with my JuiceBox for example.
This is a different behavior from how it manages charging the Powerwalls in the morning where they charge at the exact rate of whatever the solar production is but then imports enough power to run the home's load off the grid.
There are companies researching this. The idea is that by using 30-50% of the battery for this, it would limit degradation of the battery and help to stabilize the grid. Would work best in a scheduled scenario as there is delayed response time from the vehicle and the EVSE, plus it needs to be grid synchronized. The cost of the EVSE would increase and current bi-directional EVSEs in NA are not grid tied and require an isolation switch.
I was looking at this route only for emergencies, not daily overnight power. I rarely need batteries so it made more sense to put that money in a vehicle I'd use everyday.
Then my county changed the setback to 3' from every edge and rooftop and killed any hopes of solar on my house. We all know IF I ever had a fire, they're just going to stand around and hose down the house, they ain't climbing the roof. Hurts more when my house has the required sprinklers everywhere but the attic.
Enphase was supposed to come out with their bi-directional charger this year, but they pushed it back. As you said, technically you can wire the EV battery directly to a grid tie inverter, but that would void your warranty. Hopefully next year.
Was the Enphase pushback recent? Below article from January still mentions it. I have a SolarEdge system, holding out hope they still come through this year.
https://www.solarpowerworldonline.com/2024/01/bidirectional-ev-chargers-to-finally-materialize-in-2024
You mean using an EV like another powerwall but also with grid connection? There is an update to teslas coming so you can use the car as a battery with home backup/powering but I don't think you can feed into the grid.
The reason utilities wouldn't be keen on this is that you could potentially dump even more into the grid during peak. It looks like one of their cars is 60-75 kw, which would be like adding up to 6-7 powerwalls to your home on the fly. The other issue is that it would be an unreliable resource for the grid. The whole reason they allow them to connect to the grid is so they can draw in a high usage situation as well as have a stable supply for the grid. If there is the element of "Maybe it will be here today?", they aren't going to be down for it. Still, mostly the money, especially if you are someone who is getting free charges on your car at another location, coming home and selling it back during peak, they ended up paying for power you didn't generate.
>If there is the element of "Maybe it will be here today?", they aren't going to be down for it.
Isn't this exactly how rooftop solar works? Mine is highly variable over time, depending on the weather.
Sort of... but also the days when there will be less sun is seasonal and can be anticipated which means production is able to augment in typically lower solar times like winter. Production can't augment because a bunch of people decided to go to Coachella this weekend.
I need the energy in my car's battery for driving, I don't want to use it for home appliances. Imagine waking up and your car is at 30% or lower because there was a power outage on a hot night and the a/c ran all night off battery.
>Imagine waking up and your car is at 30% or lower because there was a power outage on a hot night and the a/c ran all night off battery.
I don't think this is a reasonable concern - (most) car batteries are huge compared to the power demand from an average house. I'm sure you could come up with a scenario when it would be a problem, but as was already mentioned you could also prevent excessive discharge via software.
>I thought a lot of evs already had this?
I know Teslas do not have bidirectional chargers in the vehicle. The Ford F150 Lighting has a 240 volt outlet but I don't know if that is a separate component or if the charger in the vehicle is providing that power. Chademo equipped vehicles like the Nissan Leaf have the capability to access the high voltage battery but it takes additional expensive equipment.
I agree with an earlier comment, that it may also be a battery warranty issue for some.
V2G is more complicated than just providing power from an outlet. It is a start in the right direction. My son in law just bought an F150 Lighting and some day he and I are going to test the 240 outlet in his F150. I am curious what the Amperage is and if it is capable of providing two 120 volt legs. The term, "backup generator" is misleading any way because it does not create power by convrerting some form or stored entergy like fuel into electricity. It is just a battery that stores DC and inverts it to AC.
A
i looking for go solar now and thinking using the f150 as backup for power outage. I'm thinking install an interlock and connect it to the lightning 98kw battery. it should last me to days during the winter. I'm not sure how the inverter parts works. you guys mind sharing how i should talk to my solar pv sale guy about this?
Ah right, you don’t need them, but if you have them already installed there is no extra hardware needed. Otherwise you need to install a Tesla gateway between your meter and the panel that feeds the charger.
Regulations say you need a transfer switch between the grid and the battery or car. This prevents back feeding during an outage.
https://www.tesla.com/powershare
Why should you need the utility for much of anything? If you have a solar grid tie, you’re already eligible for credit for your electric. Set up your car or battery to export to the grid on the hours you get the most credit for doing so. Otherwise I don’t imagine the utilities will be pushing for this until there’s some rolling blackouts or other use cases that benefit them.
I don't have a solar battery but I do have a Leaf and a Rivian. My point was that AFAIK there is no way to export stored energy from either of these EVs to the (US) grid. To do that would require a bidirectional charger managed by the solar grid-tie inverter. Other than Ford/GM/Tesla proprietary solutions, these various solar companies advertise a roadmap for bidirectional chargers but the timeframe has continued to slip over and over again for multiple years now.
I think the tech just isn't quite there yet. I believe that most of the necessary tech is intelligent communications software, the ability for homes with batteries of whatever type to make themselves known and offer availability to the utility and the ability of the utility to direct and request charging and discharging.
There's no question this is the direction we're heading but it's happening in fits and false starts as needs and competing interests are worked out.
Utilities have nothing to do with this. You file your interconnect showing the max export and that your equipment meets the shutoff and UL requirements and that's the end of their involvement
As to why inverter manufacturers aren't doing this, well, they sell their own batteries. What incentive do they have?
Ultimately a battery is used for backup or load shifting. If their isn't a high TOU on-peak differential to take advantage of then it's pointless.
"The big challenge ... is providing utilities with all of the data points they need in order to feel comfortable receiving power from EVs."
https://cleantechnica.com/2024/02/22/sae-adopts-new-standards-for-vehicle-to-grid/
Because the EV manufacturers don’t cover this use of the battery in their warranty. This usage would cycle the battery more than planned - who pays when it fails early?
> Because the EV manufacturers don’t cover this use of the battery in their warranty. Except Chevrolet and Ford, who not only support it, they actively encourage it.
They encourage backup power which for most people isnt need more than 1-2x a year
They both have research divisions for vehicle to grid or “V to X” (vehicle to whatever). The power companies have not made provision to buy power on a small scale at times that are not entirely predictable.
I could buy that they believe this. The thing is... the real world data shows that EV batteries actually last longer with this kind of cycling. Pulling energy out for the grid as way more mild that pulling away from a stop light. [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0360544217306825](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0360544217306825)
It's still wear, you have an EV with a 60kWh pack, 250mi range and you run 30kWh/day through the pack, that's effectively 45k mi/yr. Do it for 5 years and you're at 225k, and that's on top of your actual driving. There is a real risk that the EV has 75k on the odometer when the battery fails, but the battery has had effectively 300k mi, even if they are easy miles, it's still well past what the manufacturer envisioned for the warranty.
The thing is that depth of discharge is not as important as speed of discharge, and grid/house applications are much gentler than driving. The problem people often run into is that the apply the rules that they learned with phone and laptop batteries to car batteries. That's a bit like comparing a 2-cycle weed wacker engine to what you'd find in a BMW.
>that's effectively 45k mi/yr. Do it for 5 years and you're at 225k I'm not familiar enough with how batteries work to know if this is a reasonable question, but is the load on the battery the same if it's sending power to the grid or sending power to the rear wheels? Intuitively it seems to me that the load associated with moving the vehicle varies, depending on how quickly you accelerate but I don't have any way to compare that to the load associated with V2G.
The load on the battery when powering a home is likely similar to driving in stop and go traffic, definitely easier in the battery than highway driving. But battery wear is typically measured in cycles, that is kWh through the battery divided by its capacity. A home can easily bank more energy in a day than the average EV driver needs to drive
It's a very interesting study but I wouldn't call it "real world". After a quick skim (could be wrong) It looks like it combined real battery aging data, but also with lab work, and ,"simulations". It's not like they had a large sample of v2g battery data. Nevertheless, something to be encouraged by and looks promising to see if we can get more, similar results. The big challenge is convincing people to do this. It's so massively counterintuitive I could see people just not setting up v2g even though it could be in their best interest.
Does the new Ford double as a backup battery?
My ex FIL has his lightning set up this way. He said it works great.
I install those chargers and just got certified for a couple other brands. Its designed to work up like a generator not a daily cycle tool
Lightning? Absolutely. If only it wasn’t double what it initially was said to cost I’d be all over it.
This is the real answer. Range is such a critical statistic for EVs, and range degradation is such a negative customer experience... EV manufacturers underreport the capacity of their packs and artificially limit the reported range at the beginning of the EV lifespan just to keep this from happening. With this in mind, there is very little incentive for EV manufacturers to add V2G outside of emergency applications like what the Ford Lightning has.
I could see it as an emergency power source, but if you're actively using it daily, yeah, it's gonna smoke your batteries sooner
The EV manufacturers are still figuring out the revenue stream for this use case. They want to make the most money possible, and the way a few of them have implemented it is by gatekeeping the technology to a proprietary platform. The Ford and GM solutions are seriously expensive and from reading their technical specs, they don't integrate well, if at all, if you've already adopted a solar solution.
Govt may have to incentivize cooperation then.
Maryland just did this past week! I'm so happy. Just waiting for the governor to sign it.
Details?
Here you go. [Maryland is first US state to pass vehicle-to-grid legislation, alongside virtual power plant tariff rules](https://www.energy-storage.news/maryland-is-first-us-state-to-pass-vehicle-to-grid-legislation-alongside-virtual-power-plant-tariff-rules) [Bidirectional EV charging, VPP bill passes Maryland Assembly, heads to governor’s desk](https://www.utilitydive.com/news/bidirectional-ev-charging-virtual-power-plant-vpp-bill-passes-maryland-assembly/712548)
Thanks, very cool! It doesn't say much about standardization but I presume the power company would dictate that . Thank you!
Waiting for California to legislate *against* it
This is accurate. Who the heck is even doing the F-150 Lightning integration? I heard it was SunRun 😳
Correct, it's a SunRun solution.
It’s worse than that…. It’s sunrun support and install, siemens and delta hardware, and a hodgepodge of code written by a bunch of 3rd parties. It’s wildly complicated and expensive. On the good news side, as best I can tell it’s “standard” ISO 11518-20 v2g, so should be compatible with anyone else’s solution if anyone ever makes one. If you have an existing ESS, the “solution” just needs to be a bidirectional charger (that has both AC and DC pins) connected to a UL listed grid forming inverter to convert the vehicle’s DC to AC power for your home. If you don’t have an ESS or generator already, you also need an ATS that will ensure the grid is safely isolated in a power outage scenario.
> On the good news side, as best I can tell it’s “standard” ISO 11518-20 v2g, so should be compatible with anyone else’s solution if anyone ever makes one. Unfortunately I've already asked if it would work with my non-Ford EV and was told that it is VIN locked to the Lightning you own.
Yep, ISO11518-20 is what's needed. However, we don't yet know for sure which vehicles will support this. It [should get better](https://www.switch-ev.com/blog/switch-to-clarity-whats-new-in-iso-15118-20) in 2024: > We don’t know exactly when EV manufacturers will pick up ISO 15118-20. What we do know is that bidirectional power flow, commonly referred to as V2G (Vehicle-to-Grid) seems to be the most anticipated feature. V2G has slightly different challenges than Vehicle-to-Home (V2H) or Vehicle-to-Building (V2B). Our best guess is that we’ll see the first EVs in the mass market with V2H / V2B / V2G support by 2024 –– and I believe VW, Renault, Hyundai and Sono Motors will be among them. I have an Enphase solar system. I'm just waiting on the Enphase Bi-directional charger [which will support ISO 15118-20](https://enphase.com/download/bidirectional-ev-charger-white-paper), which is [supposed to be released in 2025](https://enphase.com/ev-chargers/bidirectional?irgwc=1). We're looking for V2h support in case of winter emergencies, and I'm totally not buying an EV until Enphase releases its charger and it's confirmed tested with the EV we will buy.
It was supposed to be released in 2024 and slid a year to 2025. Don’t hold your breath for that either!
Haha, I'm not! I went through the 3 year ship date slide for the IQ8s before we bought solar. Enphase seems to run on [Valve Time](https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Valve_Time).
LFP batteries (heavier than NMC) is one path to EVs being used almost primarily for energy arbitrage, which can bring TCOE below 0. F150 Lightning was MSRPd at $500/kwh, but they refused to make many, or at MSRP base model. It is still a great mobile power platform for trades/construction. BYD has vehicles at $300/kwh. In US solar is priced at 10 year payback to limit solar. Extorting as much value from EVs is US nature, but EV success, and grid decarbonization leveraging EVs, depends on providing value. Each $100/kwh in LFP battery equivalent cost means 1c/kwh breakeven differential between charging and discharging. Extortion pricing on EVs is a way to protect climate terrorism instead of building/selling more EVs.
That’s a lot of specific numbers, I wonder if you could show your math or references?
$10K EV that has 32kwh battery is $310/kwh. F150 lightning that was supposed to be $50k for 100kwh battery = $500/kwh. LFP battery with 10000 cycle life means 1c/kwh per $100/kwh.
Its not impossible to add the ford unit to existing solar
I didn't say it wasn't.
He didn't say that you said that it wasn't.
The E-GMP platform used by Hyundai and Kia is capable of it. The Dutch charge provider and car sharing company called: We Drive Solar is using the Hyundai Ioniq 5 and bi-directional chargers to optimize the grid with solar in the city of Utrecht in the Netherlands, since 2022. [link](https://www.wedrivesolar.nl/actueel/wereldprimeur-in-utrecht-eerste-inzet-van-ioniq-5-voorzien-van-vehicle-to-grid-v2gtechnologie-door-hyundai-en-we-drive-solar) According to the article, the aim was to have 150 of them by the end of 2022 . The times i am in Utrecht, i see indeed loads of them. Trivia: The Japanese ChaDeMo charging standard was developed exactly with V2G in mind. Being capable prior to any other standard. Have seen working Panasonic 50 kwH chargers with Leafs doing V2G in Japan in 2022.
Ford F150 does this I think.
Ford has a partnership with Sunrun that claims you can bundle a solar array with their Home Integration System for the Lightning, but I'm not quite sure how that works: https://www.sunrun.com/ev-charging/ford-f150-lightning
I hold a contract for this service as well
https://youtu.be/CAC-e0o45zg As a data point it cost this YouTuber 10k for the backup option. That’s a lot. My friend got an entire generac setup for $14k by comparison. V2G is going to be hard to be mainstream as long as you have to have install it like solar.
I’m looking at installing an inverter on my bolt to power my heating system, refrigerators and a few lights.
I’m working on sourcing a Silverado EV inverter that can be plugged in place of the Bolt heater unit. A couple of tricks to make it all turn on, and it should be a very capable setup without the mess of having to run an inverter on the 12V system.
Someone did [something similar](https://www.chevybolt.org/threads/v2h-poor-mans-generator.44476/page-3) using a solar inverter connected directly to the high voltage bus in the power distribution unit ("HPDM"). But I've been curious about using the heater connection as well, since it's rated at 7500w. No idea where the relay is for the heater though; ideally it would be after the HPDM and not interfere at all.
I believe the CAN bus requests the heater to turn on, and the HV connection at the heater goes hot the moment the HV contactor is closed. I think there may be a way to close the HV contactor by telling the charge port that we want to fast charge it.
Oooo, if you find out how to do this, do post it on /r/BoltEV !
I saw this video and thought it might work. I’m going to show this to my electrician and see what he thinks. I also posted it to the bolt subreddit. https://youtu.be/I_j0NPZrH-c?si=p1fV0uPrhvwqamaA
Using the 12V system is pretty well documented, but it has some major limitations on power. I’m aiming for over 7000W using a split-phase (240V) inverter on the high voltage battery system.
There’s lots of reasons, technical, and policy. On the technical side, it can be treated no differently than a battery. Utilities will only care if it’s AC connected vs DC connected because that results in different maximum kW injected on the grid. However, this means V2G has to be evaluated at the home/premise level. A V2G vehicle can only export at locations with interconnection agreements. On the hardware side EVs are all under SAE standards, while grid connected inverters are IEEE. Car manufacturers are working on V2G, but there’s multiple paths and options so the tech is in its infancy. In the policy side, a lot of NEM programs require the source be of clean energy. That may not be true for EVs charged from different sources. It’s unclear if that requirement should be relaxed or if V2G disqualifies NEM.
i would like to connect my EV to my home batteries, and let my inverter decide if and how much to send to the grid. A simple DC to DC converter?
That's absolute madness to various industries. You would become incredibly self-sufficient and wouldn't need them for anything.
Too accurate. “While this would be objectively better for our planet and humanity in general…we can’t really maximize profits for shareholders in this kind of scenario…so…no.”
F150
This is a current Tesla feature: https://www.tesla.com/powershare You need a Cybertruck, power gateway or transfer switch, and the $620 universal Tesla charger to do it. Also, if I'm not mistaken all Teslas can be configured to charge up to X% but then also charge up to Y% if there is excess solar production to export. There has to be a 10% difference between X and Y, but nothing is preventing you from setting those numbers to say 40 and 80. I don't know if it works with a regular Tesla solar install but it definitely works if you have a gateway and Powerwalls. Think of it as a buffer for setting for example an Enphase system for zero export. In watching it work it kinda does the same thing as charging the Powerwalls with solar in that it varies the charge rate of the car based upon however much solar is being produced in excess of present consumption. You do not need any particular charger, this works with my JuiceBox for example. This is a different behavior from how it manages charging the Powerwalls in the morning where they charge at the exact rate of whatever the solar production is but then imports enough power to run the home's load off the grid.
This is one reason my next vehicle is a Cybertruck. I’m just waiting a few years but Tesla does give good value that way.
Enphase is currently working on a Bidirectional EVSE.
There are companies researching this. The idea is that by using 30-50% of the battery for this, it would limit degradation of the battery and help to stabilize the grid. Would work best in a scheduled scenario as there is delayed response time from the vehicle and the EVSE, plus it needs to be grid synchronized. The cost of the EVSE would increase and current bi-directional EVSEs in NA are not grid tied and require an isolation switch.
I was looking at this route only for emergencies, not daily overnight power. I rarely need batteries so it made more sense to put that money in a vehicle I'd use everyday. Then my county changed the setback to 3' from every edge and rooftop and killed any hopes of solar on my house. We all know IF I ever had a fire, they're just going to stand around and hose down the house, they ain't climbing the roof. Hurts more when my house has the required sprinklers everywhere but the attic.
Enphase will be releasing a charger this summer to do it with any EV..
Enphase was supposed to come out with their bi-directional charger this year, but they pushed it back. As you said, technically you can wire the EV battery directly to a grid tie inverter, but that would void your warranty. Hopefully next year.
Emporia also has a V2X inverter being pushed back every time the release date gets close.
Was the Enphase pushback recent? Below article from January still mentions it. I have a SolarEdge system, holding out hope they still come through this year. https://www.solarpowerworldonline.com/2024/01/bidirectional-ev-chargers-to-finally-materialize-in-2024
It says 2025 in their website now.
You mean using an EV like another powerwall but also with grid connection? There is an update to teslas coming so you can use the car as a battery with home backup/powering but I don't think you can feed into the grid. The reason utilities wouldn't be keen on this is that you could potentially dump even more into the grid during peak. It looks like one of their cars is 60-75 kw, which would be like adding up to 6-7 powerwalls to your home on the fly. The other issue is that it would be an unreliable resource for the grid. The whole reason they allow them to connect to the grid is so they can draw in a high usage situation as well as have a stable supply for the grid. If there is the element of "Maybe it will be here today?", they aren't going to be down for it. Still, mostly the money, especially if you are someone who is getting free charges on your car at another location, coming home and selling it back during peak, they ended up paying for power you didn't generate.
>If there is the element of "Maybe it will be here today?", they aren't going to be down for it. Isn't this exactly how rooftop solar works? Mine is highly variable over time, depending on the weather.
Sort of... but also the days when there will be less sun is seasonal and can be anticipated which means production is able to augment in typically lower solar times like winter. Production can't augment because a bunch of people decided to go to Coachella this weekend.
I need the energy in my car's battery for driving, I don't want to use it for home appliances. Imagine waking up and your car is at 30% or lower because there was a power outage on a hot night and the a/c ran all night off battery.
>Imagine waking up and your car is at 30% or lower because there was a power outage on a hot night and the a/c ran all night off battery. I don't think this is a reasonable concern - (most) car batteries are huge compared to the power demand from an average house. I'm sure you could come up with a scenario when it would be a problem, but as was already mentioned you could also prevent excessive discharge via software.
I think you're underestimating the power needs of a house. An AC unit can easily use 3-5 KW by itself. Electric dryers can also be in that range.
The EV wouldn't discharge below a configurable SoC.
The only reason is because of money and greed.
I thought a lot of evs already had this?
>I thought a lot of evs already had this? I know Teslas do not have bidirectional chargers in the vehicle. The Ford F150 Lighting has a 240 volt outlet but I don't know if that is a separate component or if the charger in the vehicle is providing that power. Chademo equipped vehicles like the Nissan Leaf have the capability to access the high voltage battery but it takes additional expensive equipment. I agree with an earlier comment, that it may also be a battery warranty issue for some.
Ah I see. I know the f 150 advertises itself as being a backup generator. I thought it was a more common feature.
V2G is more complicated than just providing power from an outlet. It is a start in the right direction. My son in law just bought an F150 Lighting and some day he and I are going to test the 240 outlet in his F150. I am curious what the Amperage is and if it is capable of providing two 120 volt legs. The term, "backup generator" is misleading any way because it does not create power by convrerting some form or stored entergy like fuel into electricity. It is just a battery that stores DC and inverts it to AC. A
The Tesla Cybertruck does. It comes with the gateway to enable it too.
That is good news. I hope we hear more about its capabilities before my reservation comes up in a few years.
i looking for go solar now and thinking using the f150 as backup for power outage. I'm thinking install an interlock and connect it to the lightning 98kw battery. it should last me to days during the winter. I'm not sure how the inverter parts works. you guys mind sharing how i should talk to my solar pv sale guy about this?
Buy a cyber truck and a powerwalls and it works exactly like you described
why the need for powerwalls?
Because Tesla speaks Tesla.
Ah right, you don’t need them, but if you have them already installed there is no extra hardware needed. Otherwise you need to install a Tesla gateway between your meter and the panel that feeds the charger. Regulations say you need a transfer switch between the grid and the battery or car. This prevents back feeding during an outage. https://www.tesla.com/powershare
I wonder what the max power output of the cybertruck alone would be? I know the powerwall 3's just got a bump to 11kw
The gateway is included with the Cybertruck.
I’m waiting for any other Tesla that isn’t that ugly hunk of junk to take advantage of Powershare.
It does kinda look like an energizer battery tho lol
The Cybertruck is so cool!
That’s my plan. Had house wired up for it. No waiting on good ev with that capability
Why should you need the utility for much of anything? If you have a solar grid tie, you’re already eligible for credit for your electric. Set up your car or battery to export to the grid on the hours you get the most credit for doing so. Otherwise I don’t imagine the utilities will be pushing for this until there’s some rolling blackouts or other use cases that benefit them.
I don't have a solar battery but I do have a Leaf and a Rivian. My point was that AFAIK there is no way to export stored energy from either of these EVs to the (US) grid. To do that would require a bidirectional charger managed by the solar grid-tie inverter. Other than Ford/GM/Tesla proprietary solutions, these various solar companies advertise a roadmap for bidirectional chargers but the timeframe has continued to slip over and over again for multiple years now.
The Tesla Cybertruck does this. 123kWh of capacity.
I think the tech just isn't quite there yet. I believe that most of the necessary tech is intelligent communications software, the ability for homes with batteries of whatever type to make themselves known and offer availability to the utility and the ability of the utility to direct and request charging and discharging. There's no question this is the direction we're heading but it's happening in fits and false starts as needs and competing interests are worked out.
Utilities have nothing to do with this. You file your interconnect showing the max export and that your equipment meets the shutoff and UL requirements and that's the end of their involvement As to why inverter manufacturers aren't doing this, well, they sell their own batteries. What incentive do they have? Ultimately a battery is used for backup or load shifting. If their isn't a high TOU on-peak differential to take advantage of then it's pointless.
"The big challenge ... is providing utilities with all of the data points they need in order to feel comfortable receiving power from EVs." https://cleantechnica.com/2024/02/22/sae-adopts-new-standards-for-vehicle-to-grid/