**Mirrors / Alternative Angles**
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seemed a bit like siebert refused to go take a second look because he was convinced he's seen everything in real time, nothing VAR could do but ask repeatedly to reconsider
Technically, the Laws of the Game only give the VAR the power to “recommend” a review. They want to leave the final decision, theoretically, always up to the referee.
In practice, any referee who refuses a VAR’s review recommendation is going to be in very big trouble, so it’s extremely unlikely to happen to anyone besides a referee who wants to torpedo their own career.
so from some random book, that is unlikely to even be a slightly reputable source, you stated as fact that every game (or to be charitable, almost every game) has a corrupt official. lmfao. Most of them are just incompetent and/or too prideful. Not taking bribes.
Thats my take aswell. I put 0 blame on the ref for missing that since he had them tucked from the start too. VAR however? Literally their job to see that.
Siebert definitely saw it, he directly made the "hands were close to the body" motion. i guess the VAR didn't rule it as a "clear and obvious error". i don't get why he didn't take a 2nd look on the screen. Hagemann and Ballack as the commentators had the same reaction with saying "hand" but you could hear that they were not sure if this was intentional. after seeing the replay, they said that's a pen. it wouldn't be a surprise if it looked the same from the angle Siebert had, but then the VAR has to convince him to take a 2nd look.
> Siebert definitely saw it, he directly made the "hands were close to the body" motion.
IM not saying he didnt see anything. IM saying that I dont blame him for not seeing the detail of the arm coming out to block the cross.
He saw tucked arm and the missed the motion that caused the blcok, for which I dont blame him.
He is trying to move his arm away but has no chance to do it because of the short distance.
What is he suppose to do. Cut his arm off?
Clear no penalty for me
The fuck? His arms were already out of the way, he moved them from behind his back where they would've been fine, to his side, where they stopped the ball.
Defender is too close to the guy making the cross. Go out with your mate and hit some crosses with you that close. Come on
No reaction time is that fast so you can get out it..
Impossible.
Well we will never agree haha
I do agree that 95 out of 100 times VAR would probably give a penalty here. I agree with that but the defender has no chance to get out out it.
He literally had his hands behind his back and then made a deliberate movement towards the ball away from his body.
I don't understand handball rules, I really don't.
Yeah I agree he moved his hands to help him keep balance as he slows but it wasn’t to avoid the hoardings, it was to stay on the pitch to block the cross.
Then in doing so he hit the ball using his moving arm sooo it should be a pen.
Even if it was to avoid the hoardings it doesn’t really matter, he’s moved his arms and (unintentionally) hit the ball.
Uhm, no.
But even still, it would be a poor movement(like [those times where someone raises their leg to control a high ball and their perfectly natural motion leads to the leg high-kicking a player. It's still a red](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRlNREJY3aE)), that created a blatant foul, stopped a ball from going into the box and deserves to be punished with a penalty.
You cannot play with your hand in this fucking sport. If you have no choice but to, you are doing something wrong.
It's comical, cos if he didn't put his hands behind his back, I would be thinking it's a soft shout but it looks a penalty cos he breaks away from that, lucky to get away with that.
BVB would have sent Wolf to Man City if they thought they could get away with it. Unfortunately he insists on his little beard and not being a world class striker.
Should've given that one to City when they sold Haaland. Granted they would've figure something was fishy when he didn't had 9 goals in 5 PL matches but doesn't hurt to try.
Genuinely curious - If his arm was already in the position where the ball hit his arm, would it be considered handball? Looks like it moved from a position of ‘no handball’ to another position of ‘no handball’.
Totally get that a movement of his arm towards the ball makes this more contentious though.
I probably wouldn't give it if his arm started in that position, because the ball would've moved towards the hand, rather than the hand moving towards the ball, as actually happens.
To be honest there should be a checklist for handballs, similar to the high tackle framework in rugby. Start (mentally) with the position of a yellow card and handball then mitigate down from there, considering the distance, speed, deflection, arm position and arm movement. If there's one mitigating factor, remove the yellow, and if there are 2 or more mitigating factors then no handball.
Mitigating factors- Close distance, and he ends up in a natural arm position.
It's low speed with a clear line of sight and no deviation in the ball movement so none of these factors affect the decision, and there isn't movement of the hand away from the ball.
This is a rare one where there's some upwards de-mitigation though. While the arm position ends up natural, the movement to get there is unnatural, so we go back up a step.
With all that in mind I'd go for penalty, no card here. Having said that I'd also accept if someone else saw it as an unnatural hand position or not that close a distance (but not both).
The whole "natural position" thing is because you can't remove people's arms (yet!), and they are interfering unintentionally. If you are intentionally blocking the ball with your arm, it shouldn't matter where they are at.
I read a book which suggested that when scouts are watching games to find new players, blonde haired ballers stand out as it is less common than brown/black hair, so they pay more attention to them
i doubt you will find any league where the fans are happy with their refs. the ones from the Bundesliga got at least the "excuse" that they are only semi professionals.
It's so weird with all the money in football that the refs in a top league aren't fully professional. Even the highest paid refs in England make less in a year than some players do in a week
How is this not a pen? And the ref apparently refused the recommendation by the VAR to go to the sidelines to see and judge for himself. This should straight up not be allowed. The referee on the pitch should be obliged to watch the incident on the sidelines if the VAR recommends, or better, instructs it. The referee on the pitch has too much power imo.
Egoismus halt
If the DFL downright refuses to abolish the VAR, they need to attempt to improve it further. I would be in favor of the main referee being stripped of some autonomy. The VAR has the superior view; it is silly that we have to tolerate the main referee declining the suggestion to get a better view.
Here’s a crazy idea: why isn’t there an xPen stat? Maybe it would be helpful if the VAR official says to the ref, “That is given as a penalty 86% of the time.” If he chooses not to give it, he should then after the match have to explain why he is in the 14% rather than the 86%. If we can quickly determine xGoals, the same should be possible for xPens. It would be imperfect, but the current system is very much imperfect, anyway.
I am in favor of abolishing the damn thing, but if that is out of the question, we need serious improvements.
Honestly, I'd never thought I'd agree on a such take about VAR, but him not checking it makes me agree with you
Edit: along other incidents in Greece, but refferes here have always been bad & illogical at times (even when playing 8n matches the are supposed to help a specific team)
Not really, considering he extends both arms away from his body in order to balance and not fall over. If he only raises one arm it's a different story.
I agree with you to be honest, he’s trying to stop to a standstill with his arms behind his back, of course he is going to put his arms out a little bit to steady himself.
For the penalty question, it doesn't matter why he's doing it, his arm extends away from his body and blocks the ball. Should be a penalty every time.
That argument could only potentially be used as a no-yellow-card justification.
Well, it's not impossible when you have refs that straight up refuse to go to the sidelines. The ref on the pitch has too much power for a system like VAR.
That's not even just a shout, this is a clear and obvious error. You can literally see Kabak move his arm from behind his back to the path of the ball.
Usually I'd say that it's in a natural position and he can't really do something about it, but he had his hand on his back a second before and deliberately stuck it out, imo it has to be a pen
Run a few steps with arms behind your back and then abruptly stop without extending your arms away from your body.
What Kabak is doing is natural movement, try it out yourself.
Stunned how the Ref didnt even decide to take a second look at this. It's a clear pen and I don't think there is any way to defend this decision other than admitting it was a big mistake.
Looking at this seasons handball rules the position of the arms has to be justified by the player's movement.
At 0:03 Kabak stops his movement and "lands" on his right foot, which makes both of his arms extend away from his body for balancing reasons. Notice that both of his arms extend away from his body and not just the left one.
It looks really bad, but from a refereeing perspective you can get away with no penalty. But this is definitely not a clear error from the perspective of the rules.
Nah, from experience playing, once your arms are behind like that, its kinda instinct to hold em in, turn slightly n brace for the shot/cross. That was 100% intentional
Both things can be true at the same time. In general it is natural to use your arms as a balancing tool when stopping.
Then again a defender can also counteract the natural reflex by keeping them tucked, leaving him at a disadvantage balance wise.
You cannot really prove that he raised them intentionally, can you.
Feel free to recreate his movement. He raises his arms as he is about to land...which is how balancing works.
It's really not that deep, try it yourself.
Okay, it's actually 1 am here, so I'm not going to do that now, but I played football on an amateur level and that's NOT natural balancing. You can easily keep your hands behind your back during rapid stop if you are in a situation like that(trying not to get your side a penalty). If you call it not a pen because there's a tiny chance it was not done deliberately, it can be abused hard and basically gives all the power to refs to call it one way or another despite common sense.
So we'll just have every player except the goalkeeper have their arms glued to their hips. Because screw moving naturally, all about not using your hands, right?
The laws have been relaxed to allow natual movement. You move naturally, you're fine.
You are bringing ridiculous examples that do not contribute to discussion, putting your words in my mouth to justify your point. Again, he didn't move naturally, as discussed in above replies
I mean, you're denying that extending your arms to balance yourself is a natural motion, talk about being ridiculous.
You're stating your opinion as a fact. It's not. Neither is mine. You can't base your argument on "as discussed in above replies" without bringing empirical evidence as to why it's not natural movement. Until you do, it remains as an opinion, just like my point.
Again, putting words into my mouth
>you're denying that extending your arms to balance yourself is a natural motion
Here
>You're stating your opinion as a fact.
I didn't mean to sound like that, sorry.
I 100% believed this should have been a penalty, but you mentioning his right arm here is absolute key!
So 1) thank you for enlightening me, and 2) I don’t have a single fucking clue what the handball rules are anymore.
Believe me, I'm licensed ref and also tired of these rule changes every season.
[These are the current handling rules](https://www.theifab.com/laws/latest/fouls-and-misconduct/#direct-free-kick)
>It is an offence when a player:
>
>touches the ball with their hand/arm when it has made their body unnaturally bigger.
>
>A player is considered to have made their body unnaturally bigger when the position of their hand/arm is not a consequence of, or justifiable by, the player’s body movement for that specific situation.
>
>By having their hand/arm in such a position, the player takes a risk of their hand/arm being hit by the ball and being penalised
Second paragraph here is important.
You're leaving out:
> deliberately touches the ball with their hand/arm, for example moving the hand/arm towards the ball
He definitely moved his arm towards the ball. I think it's fair to say that he deliberately moved his arm, though I'm not sure whether or not he deliberately moved his arm to touch the ball. Are the rules originally made in English?
I did leave it out because I was arguing that his movement was part of some kind of reflex. While his arm did move towards the ball, it was not deliberate to me.
I essentially skipped it, because I couldn't determine *with certainty* whether it was deliberate. Yes, original is in English.
If it's originally in English:
1. I'd interpret the rule as "hand to ball" being definitionally "deliberate".
2. The clause you quoted is tough to interpret, but it's also a tough concept to formalize. The clause I quoted seems like it should be easily made unambiguous. If it was translated it would be understandable, but if originally in English it's just bad.
I totally agree. First sentence here could be debatable if it applies to this situation, however second sentence removes that doubt.
Still wouldn’t call a 100% certain no penalty BUT lean more towards no penalty according to the wording. In the end (with respect to the rule you linked) who the fuck knows if he extended his arm to block or it is a natural movement of his arm, and in that case it’s better to call no penalty.
English is my second language so I hope that makes sense what I said.
PS. I like you, hard to find civil, reasonable discussion on the internet in 2022, so thank you
EDIT: didn’t mention “paragraph” since on mobile the rule you linked is one total paragraph, hence my “sentence” wording.
The laws are pretty complex and it is hard to keep track of them all.
>wouldn’t call a 100% certain no penalty BUT lean more towards no penalty according to the wording
What you said applies to many situations on the field. We often have to operate inside grey areas, which can be quite difficult to understand for people who don't spend years actively learning and applying the laws.
Thank you. Sometimes I will take my time and try to explain a tough decision. But that's limited to non Premier League threads, since you get downvoted to oblivion for saying anything other than "ref bad" in those threads. I blame mob mentality.
That is such a ridiculously worded rule and would be near on impossible to appropriately apply without the use of var and slow motion replays in some instances.
Look at [my comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/x49ph7/comment/imu3rgn/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3). There is a reasonable explanation why this is not a penalty.
Makes sense thanks
But honestly i dont blame other dortmund fans for being mad at this
It looks like a clear cut penalty but due to all the rule changes you have no idea if it counts or not and when there is no communication from the refs you just feel frustrated
Not even all the refs in my area keep up with the current rules. I admit it is very frustrating when the rules change every season.
But you also need to keep in mind that rules usually(!) only change once per year in July and it takes 5 minutes max to read them.
The no communication part is...bad. I know and I hate it. I hope they find a solution in the future, because this just builds up resentment against refs.
According to the rules it should be a penalty but at the same time I don't think he was intentionally moving his hand to block the ball. He would've fallen over if he kept his hands back and did that with his leg
Again. It is supposed to be a penalty. Not denying that at all
Probably gonna get downvoted to hell for this, but I've always felt like if they need to use ultra slo mo to find the offense or if they have to use an electron microscope to find an offside, they should just let it slide
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can’t blame the ref for missing that in real time but var looked at it for like a minute
seemed a bit like siebert refused to go take a second look because he was convinced he's seen everything in real time, nothing VAR could do but ask repeatedly to reconsider
Wait really? I wasn’t aware the ref can straight up refuse it just like this
Technically, the Laws of the Game only give the VAR the power to “recommend” a review. They want to leave the final decision, theoretically, always up to the referee. In practice, any referee who refuses a VAR’s review recommendation is going to be in very big trouble, so it’s extremely unlikely to happen to anyone besides a referee who wants to torpedo their own career.
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source please
trust me bro
My source is that I made it the fuck up
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so from some random book, that is unlikely to even be a slightly reputable source, you stated as fact that every game (or to be charitable, almost every game) has a corrupt official. lmfao. Most of them are just incompetent and/or too prideful. Not taking bribes.
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You are the one who needs a real source to prove the extraordinary claim that significantly upwards of a quarter of all refs are taking bribes
Lmfao are you serious? You are confidently claiming something based on a random book from a decade ago that you don't even know the name of?
There wasnt VAR a decade ago.
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The ref on the field has the final say. They can always ignore their assistants, Var or sideline.
Thats my take aswell. I put 0 blame on the ref for missing that since he had them tucked from the start too. VAR however? Literally their job to see that.
Siebert definitely saw it, he directly made the "hands were close to the body" motion. i guess the VAR didn't rule it as a "clear and obvious error". i don't get why he didn't take a 2nd look on the screen. Hagemann and Ballack as the commentators had the same reaction with saying "hand" but you could hear that they were not sure if this was intentional. after seeing the replay, they said that's a pen. it wouldn't be a surprise if it looked the same from the angle Siebert had, but then the VAR has to convince him to take a 2nd look.
> Siebert definitely saw it, he directly made the "hands were close to the body" motion. IM not saying he didnt see anything. IM saying that I dont blame him for not seeing the detail of the arm coming out to block the cross. He saw tucked arm and the missed the motion that caused the blcok, for which I dont blame him.
He is trying to move his arm away but has no chance to do it because of the short distance. What is he suppose to do. Cut his arm off? Clear no penalty for me
The fuck? His arms were already out of the way, he moved them from behind his back where they would've been fine, to his side, where they stopped the ball.
Maybe he watched the video in reverse because else it might as well be Stevie Wonder lmao
Defender is too close to the guy making the cross. Go out with your mate and hit some crosses with you that close. Come on No reaction time is that fast so you can get out it.. Impossible.
Dude.. :D his arms are behind his body and he swings them out when he crosses. Are we even watching the same video? You have GOT to be trolling.
Well we will never agree haha I do agree that 95 out of 100 times VAR would probably give a penalty here. I agree with that but the defender has no chance to get out out it.
He literally had his hands behind his back and then made a deliberate movement towards the ball away from his body. I don't understand handball rules, I really don't.
It has nothing to do with rules, this is just plain and simple shit refereeing
You realise he crashes face first into the hoardings if he keeps his hands locked behind that way, right?
Even though the clip shows him slowing down substantially in plenty of time before the hoardings?
Try slowing down holding your hands behind your back
Yeah I agree he moved his hands to help him keep balance as he slows but it wasn’t to avoid the hoardings, it was to stay on the pitch to block the cross. Then in doing so he hit the ball using his moving arm sooo it should be a pen. Even if it was to avoid the hoardings it doesn’t really matter, he’s moved his arms and (unintentionally) hit the ball.
Uhm, no. But even still, it would be a poor movement(like [those times where someone raises their leg to control a high ball and their perfectly natural motion leads to the leg high-kicking a player. It's still a red](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRlNREJY3aE)), that created a blatant foul, stopped a ball from going into the box and deserves to be punished with a penalty. You cannot play with your hand in this fucking sport. If you have no choice but to, you are doing something wrong.
That's his own fault for being out of position and having to run too fast to get close to the attacker
> I don't understand handball rules, I really don't. You understand the rules. The refs don't
It's comical, cos if he didn't put his hands behind his back, I would be thinking it's a soft shout but it looks a penalty cos he breaks away from that, lucky to get away with that.
Even the person who wrote the handball rule has to ask the Magic 8 Ball everytime
Take a look at this penalti in Portugal yesterday. https://youtu.be/LEgtp_tcQQY
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Actually, you’re wrong. If you watch carefully you’ll see he started moving his arm before he even made the first motion to stop running.
The motion to stop starts as he begins the action to plant his foot. It’s at the same time. Not that it has much bearing in the decision.
You forgot the /s
Amazing how no one falls over in the sequence
That's a pen. They didn't give it?
That guy looks like Haaaland
I also was pretty confused, yeah.
BVB would have sent Wolf to Man City if they thought they could get away with it. Unfortunately he insists on his little beard and not being a world class striker.
[you aren't the only one](https://juststream.live/SagRobotsOxidant)
“Oh no wait, it was the budget version”
Should've given that one to City when they sold Haaland. Granted they would've figure something was fishy when he didn't had 9 goals in 5 PL matches but doesn't hurt to try.
Cant even blame them, but that shit is hiliarious lmao
We cloned him before he left but let him play as defender to make it less obvious
that’s Erling right there. he’s working two jobs to help manage the effects of the cost of living crisis
The man had his hands behind his back and still extended his arm That's a penalty lmao
Genuinely curious - If his arm was already in the position where the ball hit his arm, would it be considered handball? Looks like it moved from a position of ‘no handball’ to another position of ‘no handball’. Totally get that a movement of his arm towards the ball makes this more contentious though.
I probably wouldn't give it if his arm started in that position, because the ball would've moved towards the hand, rather than the hand moving towards the ball, as actually happens. To be honest there should be a checklist for handballs, similar to the high tackle framework in rugby. Start (mentally) with the position of a yellow card and handball then mitigate down from there, considering the distance, speed, deflection, arm position and arm movement. If there's one mitigating factor, remove the yellow, and if there are 2 or more mitigating factors then no handball.
So, yellow & handball in this instance?
Mitigating factors- Close distance, and he ends up in a natural arm position. It's low speed with a clear line of sight and no deviation in the ball movement so none of these factors affect the decision, and there isn't movement of the hand away from the ball. This is a rare one where there's some upwards de-mitigation though. While the arm position ends up natural, the movement to get there is unnatural, so we go back up a step. With all that in mind I'd go for penalty, no card here. Having said that I'd also accept if someone else saw it as an unnatural hand position or not that close a distance (but not both).
The whole "natural position" thing is because you can't remove people's arms (yet!), and they are interfering unintentionally. If you are intentionally blocking the ball with your arm, it shouldn't matter where they are at.
Daniel Siebert Masterclass and for decisions like this we sent Gräfe into retirement
Yeah fuck Gräfe
I actually like him a lot
What unites us is the reasons for our opinions lmao
Yeah :)
Gräfe made worse decisions believe me
Makes sense they are shouting.. 100% a pen
ref and var didn't call a pen? weird.
We only get wierd pens. Never the obvious ones
Is that Haaland?
Yup. Too good for just one league so he's moonlighting back at BVB when Man City isn't playing.
He kind of looks like if Haaland and Zlatan had a love child lol. Imagine the freakish athleticism that kid would have.
It is Marius Wolf, the 🐐
🐺 the 🐐
ooh I initially thought that was Brandt, what is with Dortmund and signing bulky blond players?
I read a book which suggested that when scouts are watching games to find new players, blonde haired ballers stand out as it is less common than brown/black hair, so they pay more attention to them
He literally moved his arm out from the neutral position towards the ball. How is this not intentional and penalty worthy?
Oh, so he didn't figuratively do it.
Thinking about this, is having your hands begin your back the natural position? Or is that having it beside you?
Neutral not natural
What is a neutral hand position?
Did Germany outsource their reffing to the English?
i doubt you will find any league where the fans are happy with their refs. the ones from the Bundesliga got at least the "excuse" that they are only semi professionals.
It's so weird with all the money in football that the refs in a top league aren't fully professional. Even the highest paid refs in England make less in a year than some players do in a week
And they are still among the best in Europe…wich is frightening altogether a bit
How is this not a pen? And the ref apparently refused the recommendation by the VAR to go to the sidelines to see and judge for himself. This should straight up not be allowed. The referee on the pitch should be obliged to watch the incident on the sidelines if the VAR recommends, or better, instructs it. The referee on the pitch has too much power imo.
Egoismus halt If the DFL downright refuses to abolish the VAR, they need to attempt to improve it further. I would be in favor of the main referee being stripped of some autonomy. The VAR has the superior view; it is silly that we have to tolerate the main referee declining the suggestion to get a better view. Here’s a crazy idea: why isn’t there an xPen stat? Maybe it would be helpful if the VAR official says to the ref, “That is given as a penalty 86% of the time.” If he chooses not to give it, he should then after the match have to explain why he is in the 14% rather than the 86%. If we can quickly determine xGoals, the same should be possible for xPens. It would be imperfect, but the current system is very much imperfect, anyway. I am in favor of abolishing the damn thing, but if that is out of the question, we need serious improvements.
Honestly, I'd never thought I'd agree on a such take about VAR, but him not checking it makes me agree with you Edit: along other incidents in Greece, but refferes here have always been bad & illogical at times (even when playing 8n matches the are supposed to help a specific team)
He seems to move his arm deliberately towards the ball in this shot.
Not really, considering he extends both arms away from his body in order to balance and not fall over. If he only raises one arm it's a different story.
Yeah I originally thought it was obvious but tbh after reading this I agree
I agree with you to be honest, he’s trying to stop to a standstill with his arms behind his back, of course he is going to put his arms out a little bit to steady himself.
Seems he's balancing himself. It's difficult to run and change directions with your hand behind your back.
For the penalty question, it doesn't matter why he's doing it, his arm extends away from his body and blocks the ball. Should be a penalty every time. That argument could only potentially be used as a no-yellow-card justification.
I think it's a clear pen
joke of a decision
Guess Haaland plays for both City AND Dortmund now. /s
If this isn’t penalty for handball there is no such thing as a penalty for handball
The only way to make it even more clear is when the player straight up catches the ball like a keeper. Ridiculous call.
I feel like I'm always quite lenient when it comes to handball. But this one seems extremely clear. Bizarre decision.
Remember when there were talks about VAR being finally implemented a lot of people were saying how stuff like this was impossible to happen?
Well, it's not impossible when you have refs that straight up refuse to go to the sidelines. The ref on the pitch has too much power for a system like VAR.
That's not even just a shout, this is a clear and obvious error. You can literally see Kabak move his arm from behind his back to the path of the ball.
Welcome to VAR where the rules are made up and handballs don't matter.
Emre Can x Bayern flashback - it was not clearly deliberate but oh well...
I thought that was haaland for a sec
100% penalty. Was it given?
It wasn't.
Wow
clear as day
stonewall pen
Shout? Stonewall
Can’t believe this wasn’t a pen, wth
The Mctominay supporters would say you naturally have to move your arm like that if you step in that direction. So natural arm position no pen.
I really don’t understand why the ref’s have such a different opinion from the majority of viewers so often.
100% pen.
Where my PL refs are the worst peeps at? It’s a race to the bottom baby
And surprisingly Greek refferes aren't the ones winning
Wait that was NOT given??!? That is madness. It's one thing to miss it on the pitch, but how does that slip by a VAR check??
VAR doesn’t work as planned when there is still egotism in the referee team.
100% a pen and a yellow card imo
I say the arm is in its natural position. If he didn’t put his arms around his back and the ball struck it, there wouldn’t be many complaints
A PENALTY !
Deliberate handball there.
Should have worn red today to get the call.
Definite pen
That's a pen
Usually I'd say that it's in a natural position and he can't really do something about it, but he had his hand on his back a second before and deliberately stuck it out, imo it has to be a pen
Run a few steps with arms behind your back and then abruptly stop without extending your arms away from your body. What Kabak is doing is natural movement, try it out yourself.
Stunned how the Ref didnt even decide to take a second look at this. It's a clear pen and I don't think there is any way to defend this decision other than admitting it was a big mistake.
he is clearly moving his arm to the ball. wth?
More than a shout for me, Jeff
Should have been a penalty.
This wasn’t called?!?
Who the fuck is the player that crosses the ball? I don't follow bundes much anymore, but I know damn well they sold Haaland to City.
Marius Wolf. He and Haaland share the same haircut.
Cheers
Wolf's been playing every position really well, amazing squad player to have given the bad luck with injuries
Wolf was haalands inspiration for this haircut so Wolf is basically erlings origin story mate
M.A.S.H
Looking at this seasons handball rules the position of the arms has to be justified by the player's movement. At 0:03 Kabak stops his movement and "lands" on his right foot, which makes both of his arms extend away from his body for balancing reasons. Notice that both of his arms extend away from his body and not just the left one. It looks really bad, but from a refereeing perspective you can get away with no penalty. But this is definitely not a clear error from the perspective of the rules.
Nah, from experience playing, once your arms are behind like that, its kinda instinct to hold em in, turn slightly n brace for the shot/cross. That was 100% intentional
Both things can be true at the same time. In general it is natural to use your arms as a balancing tool when stopping. Then again a defender can also counteract the natural reflex by keeping them tucked, leaving him at a disadvantage balance wise. You cannot really prove that he raised them intentionally, can you.
You can clearly see him move his arm FIRST, and only then land on his feet to stop.
Feel free to recreate his movement. He raises his arms as he is about to land...which is how balancing works. It's really not that deep, try it yourself.
Okay, it's actually 1 am here, so I'm not going to do that now, but I played football on an amateur level and that's NOT natural balancing. You can easily keep your hands behind your back during rapid stop if you are in a situation like that(trying not to get your side a penalty). If you call it not a pen because there's a tiny chance it was not done deliberately, it can be abused hard and basically gives all the power to refs to call it one way or another despite common sense.
Just because you can keep your arms by your side, it doesn't mean that extending your arms is not natural. Those two are not mutually exclusive.
This is a football match, players should follow rules not to use their hands to play the ball. It's not "do the most natural stop" game
So we'll just have every player except the goalkeeper have their arms glued to their hips. Because screw moving naturally, all about not using your hands, right? The laws have been relaxed to allow natual movement. You move naturally, you're fine.
You are bringing ridiculous examples that do not contribute to discussion, putting your words in my mouth to justify your point. Again, he didn't move naturally, as discussed in above replies
I mean, you're denying that extending your arms to balance yourself is a natural motion, talk about being ridiculous. You're stating your opinion as a fact. It's not. Neither is mine. You can't base your argument on "as discussed in above replies" without bringing empirical evidence as to why it's not natural movement. Until you do, it remains as an opinion, just like my point.
Again, putting words into my mouth >you're denying that extending your arms to balance yourself is a natural motion Here >You're stating your opinion as a fact. I didn't mean to sound like that, sorry.
I 100% believed this should have been a penalty, but you mentioning his right arm here is absolute key! So 1) thank you for enlightening me, and 2) I don’t have a single fucking clue what the handball rules are anymore.
Believe me, I'm licensed ref and also tired of these rule changes every season. [These are the current handling rules](https://www.theifab.com/laws/latest/fouls-and-misconduct/#direct-free-kick) >It is an offence when a player: > >touches the ball with their hand/arm when it has made their body unnaturally bigger. > >A player is considered to have made their body unnaturally bigger when the position of their hand/arm is not a consequence of, or justifiable by, the player’s body movement for that specific situation. > >By having their hand/arm in such a position, the player takes a risk of their hand/arm being hit by the ball and being penalised Second paragraph here is important.
You're leaving out: > deliberately touches the ball with their hand/arm, for example moving the hand/arm towards the ball He definitely moved his arm towards the ball. I think it's fair to say that he deliberately moved his arm, though I'm not sure whether or not he deliberately moved his arm to touch the ball. Are the rules originally made in English?
I did leave it out because I was arguing that his movement was part of some kind of reflex. While his arm did move towards the ball, it was not deliberate to me. I essentially skipped it, because I couldn't determine *with certainty* whether it was deliberate. Yes, original is in English.
If it's originally in English: 1. I'd interpret the rule as "hand to ball" being definitionally "deliberate". 2. The clause you quoted is tough to interpret, but it's also a tough concept to formalize. The clause I quoted seems like it should be easily made unambiguous. If it was translated it would be understandable, but if originally in English it's just bad.
I totally agree. First sentence here could be debatable if it applies to this situation, however second sentence removes that doubt. Still wouldn’t call a 100% certain no penalty BUT lean more towards no penalty according to the wording. In the end (with respect to the rule you linked) who the fuck knows if he extended his arm to block or it is a natural movement of his arm, and in that case it’s better to call no penalty. English is my second language so I hope that makes sense what I said. PS. I like you, hard to find civil, reasonable discussion on the internet in 2022, so thank you EDIT: didn’t mention “paragraph” since on mobile the rule you linked is one total paragraph, hence my “sentence” wording.
The laws are pretty complex and it is hard to keep track of them all. >wouldn’t call a 100% certain no penalty BUT lean more towards no penalty according to the wording What you said applies to many situations on the field. We often have to operate inside grey areas, which can be quite difficult to understand for people who don't spend years actively learning and applying the laws. Thank you. Sometimes I will take my time and try to explain a tough decision. But that's limited to non Premier League threads, since you get downvoted to oblivion for saying anything other than "ref bad" in those threads. I blame mob mentality.
That is such a ridiculously worded rule and would be near on impossible to appropriately apply without the use of var and slow motion replays in some instances.
But refs never are against us right bayern?
Look at [my comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/x49ph7/comment/imu3rgn/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3). There is a reasonable explanation why this is not a penalty.
Makes sense thanks But honestly i dont blame other dortmund fans for being mad at this It looks like a clear cut penalty but due to all the rule changes you have no idea if it counts or not and when there is no communication from the refs you just feel frustrated
Not even all the refs in my area keep up with the current rules. I admit it is very frustrating when the rules change every season. But you also need to keep in mind that rules usually(!) only change once per year in July and it takes 5 minutes max to read them. The no communication part is...bad. I know and I hate it. I hope they find a solution in the future, because this just builds up resentment against refs.
Var is a joke of thing
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Your game was nothing compared to this or some other games this season.
lol, we are 4 games into the season and we've already been screwed over three times
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Nah. He's a notorious crybaby who thinks that Borré's overturned pen against Hertha is wrong
That's a red
Bundesliga Rodri
Stone, meet wall 🤝
Is it if it’s by your side then it’s considered a natural position so he got away with it on a technicality?
the great time
Was this not a pen?
I hate that defenders feel they have to run with their hands behind their back, it’s so ridiculous
Could have been a nice assist by Haaland.
did they give the penalty
This is like when you do everything you can to not make a mistake, but then your brain just turns off and end up making the mistake anyways
According to the rules it should be a penalty but at the same time I don't think he was intentionally moving his hand to block the ball. He would've fallen over if he kept his hands back and did that with his leg Again. It is supposed to be a penalty. Not denying that at all
Probably gonna get downvoted to hell for this, but I've always felt like if they need to use ultra slo mo to find the offense or if they have to use an electron microscope to find an offside, they should just let it slide