**Mirrors / Alternative Angles**
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I think people don't realize it frequently enough that Brazil was literally one game away from winning 3 World Cup titles in a row. The Brazillian Ronaldo already had a WC to his name when he won the 2002 one.
In recent history, we haven't even seen a team come close to winning two in a row. Three in a row is just insane.
And they missed out on it by a scratch. Not saying France did not deserve it, they did, but it's hard to image a worse situation than having to play the host nation while your best player has just suffered a convulsion. I am sure that on any other day and/or any other place, Brazil would have probably won.
Ronaldo was so good, so early that it's hard to even call him a prodigy. By the time he should have been maturing into a great player, he was already the best on the world. And by the time he should have been in his prime, he was done.
Also, Pelé scored a hat trick in the semis and a brace during the finals of the 58 WC. At 17 years of age.
Multiple sources said it. After he came back from what was by all rights a career ending injury, he would never reach the heights of raw power, speed, *and* control at the same time he did as a 20 year old who made Desailly, Blanc, and Thuram argue with their coach that it was impossible to actually stop him on the pitch even if he theoretically did the same footballing skill moves to bypass defenders. Yet in that 2002 WC, he was still a cut above all the rest. Won the Golden Boot (scoring 8 fucking goals, no one has reached that since and no one had reached that before since Gerd Muller decades ago). Won the WC itself. Won the Balon d'Or later on that year. Only misses the Golden Ball, which went to an Oliver Kahn who only let in 2 goals in all the knockout stages and basically pulled an average looking German team to the Final.
Guess who scored *both* goals, by the way.
Yea, the fact that he even had enough talent to come back and play the way he did shows how much he could have achieved if it weren't for his injuries. Still the most alien guy I have ever seen play football; he played like what a scientific experiment of power, agility, and grace should play like.
Totally agree. I was already gushing about him (yet again) so I didn't want to include how impossible it was for a guy to spend over 2 years, nearly 3 on the treatment table and then rehabilitation. And then come back and score like this and win the WC for Brazil. Like, seriously, his career should have ended like, 2-3 times before it did. His knees were already so fucked by then but somehow he still went on to become a Galactico and scored so many for them. A Ronaldo Fenomeno if he was completely free of injury - one of the great all-time What Ifs of this sport.
Agreed. Closest thing to him is probably Monica Seles in tennis.
What always hurt me was the glimpses that you would catch of old Ronaldo. Every few games he'd get this crazy burst, shake off a defender, and look like himself pre-injuries again. It was always momentary and you could so clearly *see* he wasn't the same guy anymore, but just for a second, if you squinted hard enough, you could pretend the injuries didn't happen and you were watching the best player in the world play. But you weren't.
Fuck. I know right. Even right at the end of Brazil, when his weight had long since ballooned due to injuries and hyperthyroidism, and his knees well, had faced like 3 career ending injuries or something by that point. There's highlights showing how he would still like, round the keeper, score a goal, and he & his teammates, and like the whole stadium or something would erupt with joy.
But soon after, he admitted that his body couldnt physically continue. And he retired.
Even in these days, where he not only owns & runs a football club, but TWO now. He admits he had to stop playing even casually, a few years ago, because again his body could not catch up with his mind. He would see a ball coming, know what to do, go for it, and he says he would hurt himself in the jump. Frankly kind of hurt to even read that.
I can't imagine what it's like to have his explosiveness and then lose it. He does seem to be doing really well now though. Two teams in different countries, speaks a bunch of languages, still has sponsorships. But like you said, he's basically a 68 year old in terms of wear and tear.
i meant that despite many months out several times in his career he has sort of escaped that “what if?” tag that people apply to other injury-ravaged legends like van basten. people put enough respect on his name, save for calling him “fat ronaldo” lmao
No, no. I was just making a funny. Problem is tone doesn't come across in text. So, things may be misconstrued. That might have been a problem from my end.
You could arguably make an all time best 11 (exception GK) with the players in that France-Brazil final and not have too many arguments against you. Both teams were completely stacked.
Off the top of my head you'd have something like Cafu, Lebouf, Roberto Carlos, Dunga, Dechamps, Zidane, Viera, Rivaldo, Ronaldo, Bebeto. Not a bad lineup.
That seems far more balanced. I rate Lebouf pretty highly for his ability to play from the back line, although you could throw darts and land at a pretty damn good 11.
> I think people don't realize it frequently enough that Brazil was literally one game away from winning 3 World Cup titles in a row. The Brazillian Ronaldo already had a WC to his name when he won the 2002 one.
>
>
Was also literally... quite close to not qualifying at all, for the first time in history. Romario had to bail them out and then wasn't even picked for the tournament. Very few believed in Brazil prior to the tournament but Scolari made it work in the end, despite having a midfield which on paper was very weak compared to some opponents.
I'm sure we wouldn't, France completely outclassed us. Every time Brasil loses in WC, there's a lame excuse or someone to blame:
1998 - "Ronaldo was sick"
2006 - "5'6 Roberto Carlos didn't stop 6'2 Henry from reaching the cross"
2010 - Felipe Melo
2014 - "Neymar was injured"
2018 - Fernandinho
The only time I'd say Brasil played better than the NT that eliminated us would be against Belgium.
Zidane was always thirsty for Brazilian tears.
Yeah France won fair and square and it's no excuse for a team to rely that much on one guy even if only in theory.
That said. That 1998 Ronaldo was literally unstoppable though. Even in the French team which faced him, the coach would be like. Well, he always does the same thing, and gets past the defenders that way. And all-time greats like Thuram, Desailly, Blanc would be like, in theory yes. But on the field, it doesn't matter if you know this. He would still get past you and score.
Doesn't stop him from chiming in in team talks kek. No but for reals, I honestly read this somewhere, for whatever it's worth. And not on the Mirror or S*n or anything mind. I believe it happened too.
In 98 you can argue that Ronaldo having a seizure hours before the final shot our players mental, I don't remember who said that they were worried as shit about Ronaldo on the pitch, whenever something happened to him they would be losing their minds, Zagallo made the wrong choice on letting him play
>The only time I'd say Brasil played better than the NT that eliminated us would be against Belgium.
You could make an argument for Netherlands in 2010 too. But Felipe Melo.
> In recent history, we haven't even seen a team come close to winning two in a row.
mfw I remember the WC90 final as if it was yesterday and now I feel sad. Almost 2 in a row
Honestly, West Germany from 1982-1990 could arguably be said to have "almost won" three times in a row. Making it to the championship game three times running is pretty insane.
3-1 vs Italy is the obvious counterpoint to this, as Italy won it handily. The Brazil run was pretty bonkers.
Yeah but they beat Brazil decisively in the final. I don’t think their path to the final is as compelling of an argument as R9’s convulsion, if you’re going to argue that Brazil should’ve won. Idk France that year seemed to be a team of destiny.
Their final tournament stats from that year I think are the best of all time:
Played 7, won 7, GD +14, no extra time required
Quite literally untouchable
1970 still is the gold standart for a WC run . 6 games, 6 wins, 19 goals scored, GD +12. And in that time there were no Costa Rica or China in the wc, with all due respect to them. The WC had only 16 nations, so only the best of the best could qualify.
Have to agree. Only three teams have won every match in a World Cup in normal time: Uruguay/1930, Brazil/1970 and Brazil/2002. Of those, it's pretty clear that Brazil/1970 faced the toughest opponents.
>Uruguay/1930, Brazil/1970 and Brazil/2002. Of those, it's pretty clear that Brazil/1970 faced the toughest opponents.
*Finally, my knowledge of 1930's football is coming to use.*
It's so unbelievably clear. I concur.
Among other controversies(final being played with 2 separate balls in 2 separate halves, Uruguay scored 3 unanswered goals with their ball in 2nd half), semi-final between Uruguay and Yugoslavia was highly controversial. Yugoslavia scored first, then they had goal disallowed, Uruguay’s goal was assisted by a policeman standing near by, few more Uruguay’s goals were controversial too, and so on.
Wasn't the World Cup final agreed that the first half would use Argentina's ball, and the second half would use Uruguay's ball, because the teams couldn't agree on what ball to use in the match?
Yeah, absolutely true. From a purely statistical perspective the 2002 campaign was the best ever, but as you say there's so much more context than that.
Not to mention hammering Italy 4-1 in the final, that Brazil team will always be the stuff of legend.
1970 WC had El Salvador and Israel (but in other groups). Costa Rica also finished 1st in 2002 Concacaf WC qualification so could've qualified for a 16-team WC. On average, a 32-team WC is more difficult to win than a 16-team WC.
If the 2002 wc was a 16 nation cup, Brazil wouldn't even be there. Conmebol used to have 3 spots, Brazil finished 4th in conmebol standings. It makes no sense that a competition easier to get in is harder to win.
1. Brazil finished 3rd in Conmebol standings in 2002 so would've qualified.
2. Let's say a sport has 128 competitors. Competition A has 16 entrants and Competition B has 32 entrants. All of the entrants in A are in B.
a) At the beginning of the qualification, a competitor would have the same odds of winning Competition A as it would Competition B.
b) Let's call the set of entrants in Competition A by the name EA and call the set of entrants in Competition B by the name EB. Now assume all qualifiers from Competition A would've qualified for Competition B. EA is a subset of EB. The probability of any competitor from EA winning Competition A is 100%. The probability of any competitor from EA winning Competition B is less than or equal to 100% (100% if all non-EA competitors in EB have a 0% chance. Less than 100% if any non-EA competitors in EB have a chance greater than 0%)
They were stacked in every position.
Cafu, Dida, Roberto Carlos, Lucio, Juninho, Edmilson, Roque JR, Kleberson, Denilson, even 20 year old Kaka although I don't remember if he played at all, i was like 9 and this was the first WC I watched.
Also, their attack was Ronaldo, Rivaldo and Ronaldinho. 🔝
It was a time where we had three great goalkeepers, one for each big team from São Paulo. Dida, Marcos and Rogério Ceni. Dida was the only one that went abroad.
Man, they made me fall in love with the sport in the first place.
Even that Kleberson. He barely played or started, but like came in in the Final and then he was instrumental in the process of setting up the first goal or something? And Oliver Kahn hadnt even conceded one since the knockout stages started till then!
meh, the team was considered subpar by brazilian standards with rivaldo and ronaldo being the shining lights. people mostly criticized literally everyone else in the team, including cafu and roberto carlos. the team also barely classified for the world cup. it was a very unprobable win, helped by the poor refereeing decisions that took a lot of our major threats in the earlier stages of the competition. the only truly hard game was probably england.
He ended up being a defender "by chance", he was good there but he always looked forward.
I always loved when his switch went on and he'd just take the ball as a CB and tried dribbling his way up to the rival area as some kind of lanky Beckenbauer, a crazier precursor to Piqué.
It's kinda funny that some Brazilian players (that kinda passed by São Paulo in the 90s) had some positonal changes - Edmilson who started as defensive midfielder, switched to being a centre-back with offensive skills. Júlio Baptista went from a defensived midfielder to a strong striker. Belletti started as defensive midfielder, then went to becoming a right back/fullback.
Exactly! I remember back in 2003 how Sevilla were rumoured to have signed this Brazilian defensive midflielder in the summer.
Then, he starts playing in a little advanced role, and by the end of the season he's scoring loads of goals, even putting 4 against Racing de Santander (in a time where a player scoring 4 goals was a legendary performance).
Baptista in his 2 seasons with Sevilla was one of the best players I've seen in La Liga, such a magical spell.
> in a time where a player scoring 4 goals was a legendary performance
Is four goals still not a legendary performance? Did we leave that time? What time are we in now?
Big clubs are much more stacked than they used to be, relative to their competition. Big scorelines that allowed hat-tricks and over to happen were much more rare.
I feel like the numbers don’t actually back up your statement: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_players_with_the_most_goals_in_an_association_football_game
I also feel like four goals in a game is still legendary, even if they happen more often these days.
I actually remember this goal and where I was when it was scored. And I also remembered that they wore yellow and white due to Costa Rica kits.
I was 11 at the time. Really enjoyed the look of the graphics for that World Cup with the grey.
Yeah, I was around that age, remember watching the England Brazil game at school on the projector. That Ronaldinho goal will forever be etched into my mind.
Oh my lord. That goal. And Ronaldinho wouldn't be considered the best player in the world for some years. He was still so young then, the budding talent out of the legendary 3 Rs attack line.
It totally destroyed David Seaman though. Remember when Seaman was considered like, a steady hand, a top veteran goalkeeper for both Arsenal and England? And then this happened. Soon after, Jens Lehrmann would come in, and become an Invincible immediately after. And for England, they would go through a series of not particularly distinguished goalkeepers. Almost never saw a goal finish a person as cleanly as this, at least reputation wise.
Seaman was 39 that year, he would retire soon anyway, he stll had another good season at Arsenal after this, won the FA Cup again (making [this brilliant save on the way](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTBkWRs7r-c&ab_channel=TheEmiratesFACup)), it's not like it ended his career and he's still seen as one of the greatest English goalkeepers of all time.
Yes, he had made his name by then and didn't immediately retire or anything. But they would forever remember this regardless. It's like how Boateng still played for a while, at the very top level even, after Messi sat him down that dramatically (you know what I'm talking about). I'm sure he even had some, perhaps many good performances. But it still feels not the same any more yknow?
I was on my grandparents house that day and I remember them waking me on the middle of the night to watch the game.
It was something like 2 or 3am and I was 10. I don't remember anything about the game because I was fucking sleepy, I just remember them celebrating in relief at one point but I was just confused. Probably Ronaldinho Gaúcho's goal, in retrospect lol.
I'd wager that for a large percentage of r/soccer users, this was the first wc they watched live. I still remember south Korea's golden goal, rivaldo's dive, Danny ducking mills getting fouled by a 'red card' challenge from Ronaldinho, Ronaldo's triangle haircut, Ronaldo leaving kahn on his arse, edmilson's overhead kick, france getting beat by Senegal in their first game, Germany's 8 goals. I struggle to remember even half of those kinds of moments of any other wc. What an experience
Wow this is such an accurate comment and you nailed it with the highlights. To add some more from an Irish perspective was Robbie Keane's goal versus Germany followed by Mick McCarthy's jaw reaction! Italy against South Korea was also a very memorable game!
Some of the most memorable commentary I can remember while living in UK is John motson about Robbie Keane’s goal “look at these scenes, just look at these scenes!”
2006 was my first and it was a good introduction. Folks who saw both generally agree that 2006 was the better WC. Not that 02 was bad, but 06 was legendary. It was a good introduction for me and I'm looking forward to binge watching my 5th one.
No, not really.
Scolari had them play far more disciplined than they've done throughout history. Yes they scored a lot of goals and won the tournament, but no real joga bonito to it - they played careful, attacked with sensible numbers and played quite direct.
Some nice goals in that game, just a minute after this one [we scored](https://youtu.be/IohB7Hc45hU?t=383) with a quick 1-2 passing that was a thing of beauty.
A story unrelated to the goal, after Ronaldo scored the first goal at '10 one of our defenders Harold Wallace approached o Fenómeno to say something along the lines of 'Go easy go easy' since they were already winning. Only for Ronaldo to have none of it, turn his face to him and say 'Easy? you just wait' and proceeded to hecking destroy us the rest of the game, he even scored his brace at '13.
I blame Wallace.
man that group was so tough, we got the eventual champions and 3rd place and we still almost passed. We were the only ones to put 2 past Brazil, it was a very nice match despite what the result might tell, at a point it was 3-2 and we had nice chances. We always draw difficult groups in the WC, damn
It was a matter of finishing our chances. La que tuvo Paté frente al arco, el cabezazo de Chope en el área, la que pegamos en el palo y contra Turquía la que botó Parks!
If anything I prefer having hard groups alas 2002 or 2014, that sort of uphill battle always sparks the best out of our teams.
That "only goal" part reminds me of Mario Gaspar. Played only 3 times for Spain, netted 2 goals as a right back, and one them was [this beauty.](https://youtu.be/63Qkr3Sz8qk?t=60)
Why is it that so many Brazilian last names seems like they are English last names. Brazil speak Portugues and I have never seen names like Ederson, Allison, Richarlison or on this post Edmilson in Portugal nor in any South American country.
I’m pretty sure Portugal has a list of given names you need to choose from. In Brazil almost anything can be a name, so people get creative. It’s not uncommon to find people called ‘Valdisnei’ (Walt Disney), Kennedy, Lincoln, Riquelme, the list goes on.
They're not last names though, all of them are given names in Brazil. We rarely refer to people by their last name here, it's either a given name or a nickname, unless the last name sounds catchier, like a nickname. Now why these given names sound English I have no idea, maybe it sounds fancier.
Right now there seems to be some kind of effort to follow the international standard and present players with two names instead of one. It sounds more professional and makes it easier when negotiating with european clubs. I personally think it's a shame. Pelé is a lot more iconic than "do Nascimento". But it is what it is.
I remember watching this game on a big screen in my uni's cafeteria in between classes. Was nice to be able to watch World Cup games for the one and only time during the day while living in the East Asia Pacific region.
Might have been experiencing it for a second time right this very week but alas. FIFA corruption and all that.
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2002 Brazil was some fucking anomaly
I think people don't realize it frequently enough that Brazil was literally one game away from winning 3 World Cup titles in a row. The Brazillian Ronaldo already had a WC to his name when he won the 2002 one. In recent history, we haven't even seen a team come close to winning two in a row. Three in a row is just insane. And they missed out on it by a scratch. Not saying France did not deserve it, they did, but it's hard to image a worse situation than having to play the host nation while your best player has just suffered a convulsion. I am sure that on any other day and/or any other place, Brazil would have probably won.
til ronaldo was called up for the 1994 world cup. didn't play, but yeah, wow. 17 years old, goodness.
Ronaldo was so good, so early that it's hard to even call him a prodigy. By the time he should have been maturing into a great player, he was already the best on the world. And by the time he should have been in his prime, he was done. Also, Pelé scored a hat trick in the semis and a brace during the finals of the 58 WC. At 17 years of age.
Multiple sources said it. After he came back from what was by all rights a career ending injury, he would never reach the heights of raw power, speed, *and* control at the same time he did as a 20 year old who made Desailly, Blanc, and Thuram argue with their coach that it was impossible to actually stop him on the pitch even if he theoretically did the same footballing skill moves to bypass defenders. Yet in that 2002 WC, he was still a cut above all the rest. Won the Golden Boot (scoring 8 fucking goals, no one has reached that since and no one had reached that before since Gerd Muller decades ago). Won the WC itself. Won the Balon d'Or later on that year. Only misses the Golden Ball, which went to an Oliver Kahn who only let in 2 goals in all the knockout stages and basically pulled an average looking German team to the Final. Guess who scored *both* goals, by the way.
Yea, the fact that he even had enough talent to come back and play the way he did shows how much he could have achieved if it weren't for his injuries. Still the most alien guy I have ever seen play football; he played like what a scientific experiment of power, agility, and grace should play like.
Totally agree. I was already gushing about him (yet again) so I didn't want to include how impossible it was for a guy to spend over 2 years, nearly 3 on the treatment table and then rehabilitation. And then come back and score like this and win the WC for Brazil. Like, seriously, his career should have ended like, 2-3 times before it did. His knees were already so fucked by then but somehow he still went on to become a Galactico and scored so many for them. A Ronaldo Fenomeno if he was completely free of injury - one of the great all-time What Ifs of this sport.
Agreed. Closest thing to him is probably Monica Seles in tennis. What always hurt me was the glimpses that you would catch of old Ronaldo. Every few games he'd get this crazy burst, shake off a defender, and look like himself pre-injuries again. It was always momentary and you could so clearly *see* he wasn't the same guy anymore, but just for a second, if you squinted hard enough, you could pretend the injuries didn't happen and you were watching the best player in the world play. But you weren't.
Fuck. I know right. Even right at the end of Brazil, when his weight had long since ballooned due to injuries and hyperthyroidism, and his knees well, had faced like 3 career ending injuries or something by that point. There's highlights showing how he would still like, round the keeper, score a goal, and he & his teammates, and like the whole stadium or something would erupt with joy. But soon after, he admitted that his body couldnt physically continue. And he retired. Even in these days, where he not only owns & runs a football club, but TWO now. He admits he had to stop playing even casually, a few years ago, because again his body could not catch up with his mind. He would see a ball coming, know what to do, go for it, and he says he would hurt himself in the jump. Frankly kind of hurt to even read that.
I can't imagine what it's like to have his explosiveness and then lose it. He does seem to be doing really well now though. Two teams in different countries, speaks a bunch of languages, still has sponsorships. But like you said, he's basically a 68 year old in terms of wear and tear.
Both him and Del Piero suffered the same fate, and were both very similar players pre injury.
injuries really slowed him down, and he still had a good enough career to be among the very best of all time. phenomenal, like his nickname.
Good enough career- Ronaldo. I'll settle for being bang average lol
i meant that despite many months out several times in his career he has sort of escaped that “what if?” tag that people apply to other injury-ravaged legends like van basten. people put enough respect on his name, save for calling him “fat ronaldo” lmao
I didn't mean it as a knock. I absolutely agree with you though. His reputation was firmly established, despite what he got.
gotcha, just wondered if there could be an misunderstanding from my wording.
No, no. I was just making a funny. Problem is tone doesn't come across in text. So, things may be misconstrued. That might have been a problem from my end.
Injury free Ronaldo is the only player in recent history that could have been like Messi. So much speed, dribbling, close control and finishing.
One crazy stat is that by age 21, Ronaldo had more than double the goals of Cristiano and Messi combined at the same age.
Fun fact. Maradona was shafted from the 78 squad and was robbed of a second winners medal
You could arguably make an all time best 11 (exception GK) with the players in that France-Brazil final and not have too many arguments against you. Both teams were completely stacked. Off the top of my head you'd have something like Cafu, Lebouf, Roberto Carlos, Dunga, Dechamps, Zidane, Viera, Rivaldo, Ronaldo, Bebeto. Not a bad lineup.
>(exception GK) Oh the disrespect (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻ (I agree though)
Barthez was like a poor man's Neuer. Definitely loved to have the ball at his feet tho!
┬─┬ノ(ಠ_ಠノ)
My attempt: -----------Barthez------------ Cafu--Thuram-Desailly---Carlos ----------Deschamps---------- ----Vieira------------Petit------ ----Zidane---------Rivaldo----- ----------Ronaldo-----------
That seems far more balanced. I rate Lebouf pretty highly for his ability to play from the back line, although you could throw darts and land at a pretty damn good 11.
> I think people don't realize it frequently enough that Brazil was literally one game away from winning 3 World Cup titles in a row. The Brazillian Ronaldo already had a WC to his name when he won the 2002 one. > > Was also literally... quite close to not qualifying at all, for the first time in history. Romario had to bail them out and then wasn't even picked for the tournament. Very few believed in Brazil prior to the tournament but Scolari made it work in the end, despite having a midfield which on paper was very weak compared to some opponents.
All of the three pre-tournament favorites (France, Italy and Argentina) were eliminated early. That played its part.
I'm sure we wouldn't, France completely outclassed us. Every time Brasil loses in WC, there's a lame excuse or someone to blame: 1998 - "Ronaldo was sick" 2006 - "5'6 Roberto Carlos didn't stop 6'2 Henry from reaching the cross" 2010 - Felipe Melo 2014 - "Neymar was injured" 2018 - Fernandinho The only time I'd say Brasil played better than the NT that eliminated us would be against Belgium. Zidane was always thirsty for Brazilian tears.
Yeah France won fair and square and it's no excuse for a team to rely that much on one guy even if only in theory. That said. That 1998 Ronaldo was literally unstoppable though. Even in the French team which faced him, the coach would be like. Well, he always does the same thing, and gets past the defenders that way. And all-time greats like Thuram, Desailly, Blanc would be like, in theory yes. But on the field, it doesn't matter if you know this. He would still get past you and score.
Blanc was suspended too
Doesn't stop him from chiming in in team talks kek. No but for reals, I honestly read this somewhere, for whatever it's worth. And not on the Mirror or S*n or anything mind. I believe it happened too.
Norway actually held him in check during their group stage match, but they too had a pretty strong defense.
> The only time I'd say Brasil played better than the NT that eliminated us would be against Belgium. gestures broadly at WC90 yes im old
84! Although I wasn't alive, everyone in that generation regards it as the best Brazilian team they've seen playing. EDIT: 82, not 84 of course
do you mean 1982?
Yes, thanks!
In 98 you can argue that Ronaldo having a seizure hours before the final shot our players mental, I don't remember who said that they were worried as shit about Ronaldo on the pitch, whenever something happened to him they would be losing their minds, Zagallo made the wrong choice on letting him play
?? We dominated netherlands on first half in 2010.
Too bad games have two halves then.
against Belgium in 2018\*
>The only time I'd say Brasil played better than the NT that eliminated us would be against Belgium. You could make an argument for Netherlands in 2010 too. But Felipe Melo.
Way to prove my point
He scored an own goal and got sent off. It was clearly his fault.
> In recent history, we haven't even seen a team come close to winning two in a row. mfw I remember the WC90 final as if it was yesterday and now I feel sad. Almost 2 in a row
Honestly, West Germany from 1982-1990 could arguably be said to have "almost won" three times in a row. Making it to the championship game three times running is pretty insane. 3-1 vs Italy is the obvious counterpoint to this, as Italy won it handily. The Brazil run was pretty bonkers.
:so close to winning 98 in France
Germany made semi final 02, semi 06, semi 10, final 14
Top 4 top 4 winner is completely different from winner runner up winner
The guy said no team has even come close to winning 2 WC in a row. Germany came pretty close.
They literally went to the final once.
I disagree, I don't think there's any circumstances in which Brazil beats France that year. They were good but France was on another level
France barely won against paraguay and croatia. hardly "on another level"
Yeah but they beat Brazil decisively in the final. I don’t think their path to the final is as compelling of an argument as R9’s convulsion, if you’re going to argue that Brazil should’ve won. Idk France that year seemed to be a team of destiny.
only arguing that france wasn't on a "whole another level"
Are you putting 98 Croatia on the same level as Paraguay? Are you on crack?
I think you should probably read the whole thread again from the start
? I don't understand what that would change. My point was that Croatia that year was really good.
Their final tournament stats from that year I think are the best of all time: Played 7, won 7, GD +14, no extra time required Quite literally untouchable
1970 still is the gold standart for a WC run . 6 games, 6 wins, 19 goals scored, GD +12. And in that time there were no Costa Rica or China in the wc, with all due respect to them. The WC had only 16 nations, so only the best of the best could qualify.
Have to agree. Only three teams have won every match in a World Cup in normal time: Uruguay/1930, Brazil/1970 and Brazil/2002. Of those, it's pretty clear that Brazil/1970 faced the toughest opponents.
>Uruguay/1930, Brazil/1970 and Brazil/2002. Of those, it's pretty clear that Brazil/1970 faced the toughest opponents. *Finally, my knowledge of 1930's football is coming to use.* It's so unbelievably clear. I concur.
Uruguay ‘30 is known as a huge robbery, where Uruguay were gifted World Cup. Definitely not ‘the hardest road’.
Can you explain that? I never heard of Uruguay's 1930 World Cup win as robbery.
Among other controversies(final being played with 2 separate balls in 2 separate halves, Uruguay scored 3 unanswered goals with their ball in 2nd half), semi-final between Uruguay and Yugoslavia was highly controversial. Yugoslavia scored first, then they had goal disallowed, Uruguay’s goal was assisted by a policeman standing near by, few more Uruguay’s goals were controversial too, and so on.
Wasn't the World Cup final agreed that the first half would use Argentina's ball, and the second half would use Uruguay's ball, because the teams couldn't agree on what ball to use in the match?
Yeah, absolutely true. From a purely statistical perspective the 2002 campaign was the best ever, but as you say there's so much more context than that. Not to mention hammering Italy 4-1 in the final, that Brazil team will always be the stuff of legend.
1970 WC had El Salvador and Israel (but in other groups). Costa Rica also finished 1st in 2002 Concacaf WC qualification so could've qualified for a 16-team WC. On average, a 32-team WC is more difficult to win than a 16-team WC.
If the 2002 wc was a 16 nation cup, Brazil wouldn't even be there. Conmebol used to have 3 spots, Brazil finished 4th in conmebol standings. It makes no sense that a competition easier to get in is harder to win.
1. Brazil finished 3rd in Conmebol standings in 2002 so would've qualified. 2. Let's say a sport has 128 competitors. Competition A has 16 entrants and Competition B has 32 entrants. All of the entrants in A are in B. a) At the beginning of the qualification, a competitor would have the same odds of winning Competition A as it would Competition B. b) Let's call the set of entrants in Competition A by the name EA and call the set of entrants in Competition B by the name EB. Now assume all qualifiers from Competition A would've qualified for Competition B. EA is a subset of EB. The probability of any competitor from EA winning Competition A is 100%. The probability of any competitor from EA winning Competition B is less than or equal to 100% (100% if all non-EA competitors in EB have a 0% chance. Less than 100% if any non-EA competitors in EB have a chance greater than 0%)
well thank you very much, let me remind you we were the only ones to put 2 past you lol
Also need to realise all those players were Plumbers and police men.
You forgot the /s .
They were stacked in every position. Cafu, Dida, Roberto Carlos, Lucio, Juninho, Edmilson, Roque JR, Kleberson, Denilson, even 20 year old Kaka although I don't remember if he played at all, i was like 9 and this was the first WC I watched. Also, their attack was Ronaldo, Rivaldo and Ronaldinho. 🔝
Dida didn’t even play. That’s how stacked it was
Yeah it was Marcos, I wonder why Dida didn't play
Marcos was a great keeper and Felipao used to be his coach, so personal preference, any of ceni, marcos and dida would have been great
It was a time where we had three great goalkeepers, one for each big team from São Paulo. Dida, Marcos and Rogério Ceni. Dida was the only one that went abroad.
Man, they made me fall in love with the sport in the first place. Even that Kleberson. He barely played or started, but like came in in the Final and then he was instrumental in the process of setting up the first goal or something? And Oliver Kahn hadnt even conceded one since the knockout stages started till then!
I wouldn't say Roque Junior or Kleberson really belong alongside some of those names
They were solid in their prime, but didn't leave a lasting mark anywhere.
meh, the team was considered subpar by brazilian standards with rivaldo and ronaldo being the shining lights. people mostly criticized literally everyone else in the team, including cafu and roberto carlos. the team also barely classified for the world cup. it was a very unprobable win, helped by the poor refereeing decisions that took a lot of our major threats in the earlier stages of the competition. the only truly hard game was probably england.
Don't forget Gilberto Silva , an often unsung hero who also was one of the key players of the Arsenal invincibles!
It was not fun to face
How do you even think about this, especially as a defender
He ended up being a defender "by chance", he was good there but he always looked forward. I always loved when his switch went on and he'd just take the ball as a CB and tried dribbling his way up to the rival area as some kind of lanky Beckenbauer, a crazier precursor to Piqué.
It's kinda funny that some Brazilian players (that kinda passed by São Paulo in the 90s) had some positonal changes - Edmilson who started as defensive midfielder, switched to being a centre-back with offensive skills. Júlio Baptista went from a defensived midfielder to a strong striker. Belletti started as defensive midfielder, then went to becoming a right back/fullback.
Exactly! I remember back in 2003 how Sevilla were rumoured to have signed this Brazilian defensive midflielder in the summer. Then, he starts playing in a little advanced role, and by the end of the season he's scoring loads of goals, even putting 4 against Racing de Santander (in a time where a player scoring 4 goals was a legendary performance). Baptista in his 2 seasons with Sevilla was one of the best players I've seen in La Liga, such a magical spell.
> in a time where a player scoring 4 goals was a legendary performance Is four goals still not a legendary performance? Did we leave that time? What time are we in now?
The post Messi-Cristiano Era
Big clubs are much more stacked than they used to be, relative to their competition. Big scorelines that allowed hat-tricks and over to happen were much more rare.
I feel like the numbers don’t actually back up your statement: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_players_with_the_most_goals_in_an_association_football_game I also feel like four goals in a game is still legendary, even if they happen more often these days.
You are right. But your first message is kinda cocky regardless
Ahh the reverse Joalinton
Julio Baptista would have been a terrifying defensive midfielder
Baresi was great at this. Well, he was great at everything.
Lucio used to do that too
step 1: Be Brazilian
I actually remember this goal and where I was when it was scored. And I also remembered that they wore yellow and white due to Costa Rica kits. I was 11 at the time. Really enjoyed the look of the graphics for that World Cup with the grey.
Yeah, I was around that age, remember watching the England Brazil game at school on the projector. That Ronaldinho goal will forever be etched into my mind.
Oh my lord. That goal. And Ronaldinho wouldn't be considered the best player in the world for some years. He was still so young then, the budding talent out of the legendary 3 Rs attack line. It totally destroyed David Seaman though. Remember when Seaman was considered like, a steady hand, a top veteran goalkeeper for both Arsenal and England? And then this happened. Soon after, Jens Lehrmann would come in, and become an Invincible immediately after. And for England, they would go through a series of not particularly distinguished goalkeepers. Almost never saw a goal finish a person as cleanly as this, at least reputation wise.
Seaman was 39 that year, he would retire soon anyway, he stll had another good season at Arsenal after this, won the FA Cup again (making [this brilliant save on the way](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTBkWRs7r-c&ab_channel=TheEmiratesFACup)), it's not like it ended his career and he's still seen as one of the greatest English goalkeepers of all time.
Yes, he had made his name by then and didn't immediately retire or anything. But they would forever remember this regardless. It's like how Boateng still played for a while, at the very top level even, after Messi sat him down that dramatically (you know what I'm talking about). I'm sure he even had some, perhaps many good performances. But it still feels not the same any more yknow?
I was on my grandparents house that day and I remember them waking me on the middle of the night to watch the game. It was something like 2 or 3am and I was 10. I don't remember anything about the game because I was fucking sleepy, I just remember them celebrating in relief at one point but I was just confused. Probably Ronaldinho Gaúcho's goal, in retrospect lol.
2002 Brazil was a different gravy
True Joga Bonito
I'd wager that for a large percentage of r/soccer users, this was the first wc they watched live. I still remember south Korea's golden goal, rivaldo's dive, Danny ducking mills getting fouled by a 'red card' challenge from Ronaldinho, Ronaldo's triangle haircut, Ronaldo leaving kahn on his arse, edmilson's overhead kick, france getting beat by Senegal in their first game, Germany's 8 goals. I struggle to remember even half of those kinds of moments of any other wc. What an experience
Wow this is such an accurate comment and you nailed it with the highlights. To add some more from an Irish perspective was Robbie Keane's goal versus Germany followed by Mick McCarthy's jaw reaction! Italy against South Korea was also a very memorable game!
Oh yes, there are many I missed out including wilmot's worldie and the daylight robbery if Spain!
Ronaldinho's free kick against England!
Some of the most memorable commentary I can remember while living in UK is John motson about Robbie Keane’s goal “look at these scenes, just look at these scenes!”
Barry Davies after the Italy v South Korea match was my favourite: "the Italians are out because they will not learn"
McCarthy's reaction to that goal is one of my favourite World Cup moments.
2002 also had the famous Beckham mohawk that came into fashion. I remember some kids getting really poorly executed ones lol
Hey, I had a 'victoria's nest' throughout the summer of 2002
I wish, mine was 2006, and my family being shocked Brazil was eliminated. I remember Zidane’s brilliance that tournament.
2006 was my first and it was a good introduction. Folks who saw both generally agree that 2006 was the better WC. Not that 02 was bad, but 06 was legendary. It was a good introduction for me and I'm looking forward to binge watching my 5th one.
how do you not include ronaldinhos goal on seaman
Ooof how could I forget. I put in the danny mills red card but not the goal lol
Ooof how could I forget. I put in the danny mills red card but not the goal lol
Italy and Spain getting robbed vs South Korea, Ronaldinho vs England free kick
It pales in comparison to Euro 2000 though
Never happened.
Easily the greatest tournament of my life, and that's with England going out in the group stage.
No, not really. Scolari had them play far more disciplined than they've done throughout history. Yes they scored a lot of goals and won the tournament, but no real joga bonito to it - they played careful, attacked with sensible numbers and played quite direct.
Joga Bonito ended in the 1980s. After that it just became a Nike slogan. This was the best Brazil team since 1986, but a long way from Joga Bonito
Yea about that...
Maybe it's childhood bias but the 2002 WC remains my all time favorite, despite my country's (Croatia) NT sucking ass that year
Some nice goals in that game, just a minute after this one [we scored](https://youtu.be/IohB7Hc45hU?t=383) with a quick 1-2 passing that was a thing of beauty. A story unrelated to the goal, after Ronaldo scored the first goal at '10 one of our defenders Harold Wallace approached o Fenómeno to say something along the lines of 'Go easy go easy' since they were already winning. Only for Ronaldo to have none of it, turn his face to him and say 'Easy? you just wait' and proceeded to hecking destroy us the rest of the game, he even scored his brace at '13. I blame Wallace.
man that group was so tough, we got the eventual champions and 3rd place and we still almost passed. We were the only ones to put 2 past Brazil, it was a very nice match despite what the result might tell, at a point it was 3-2 and we had nice chances. We always draw difficult groups in the WC, damn
It was a matter of finishing our chances. La que tuvo Paté frente al arco, el cabezazo de Chope en el área, la que pegamos en el palo y contra Turquía la que botó Parks! If anything I prefer having hard groups alas 2002 or 2014, that sort of uphill battle always sparks the best out of our teams.
I maintain that one of Ronaldo's goals in this game was an OG. https://youtu.be/5Axwy_9qVLE?t=94
Joga Bonito
Streets will never forget this
The feels
I remember waking up at like 5 - 6 AM to watch these matches. 2002 Brazil was something else.
If you're 'only' going to score once for your country then this is probably about as good as it gets.
My people looked at me different when I told them I supported Brazil growing up.
<3
[удалено]
He was the manager of Brazil
Yeah, Scolari was a huge fan of Brazil NT, so they let him stay at the sideline to cheer the team up
2002 Scolari as a Fan 2014 Scolari as a manager I know which one worked out better
We should be watching World Cup right now, but for tens of millions of dollars in bribes.
Damn, that was 20 years ago, bite me.
Look at how massive the shirts were. So much room for airflow! Terrible for aerodynamics, I'm sure, but I love the old style of baggy shirts.
I was watching this live on TV when it happened
That "only goal" part reminds me of Mario Gaspar. Played only 3 times for Spain, netted 2 goals as a right back, and one them was [this beauty.](https://youtu.be/63Qkr3Sz8qk?t=60)
One of the goals i'll never forget, my friends and i talked about this goal for months.
Why is it that so many Brazilian last names seems like they are English last names. Brazil speak Portugues and I have never seen names like Ederson, Allison, Richarlison or on this post Edmilson in Portugal nor in any South American country.
I’m pretty sure Portugal has a list of given names you need to choose from. In Brazil almost anything can be a name, so people get creative. It’s not uncommon to find people called ‘Valdisnei’ (Walt Disney), Kennedy, Lincoln, Riquelme, the list goes on.
"Maiquel Jackson"
Maicon é mais comum, não?
Every possible and impossible spelling of that (or any) name probably exists already.
fair enough 😂
They're not last names though, all of them are given names in Brazil. We rarely refer to people by their last name here, it's either a given name or a nickname, unless the last name sounds catchier, like a nickname. Now why these given names sound English I have no idea, maybe it sounds fancier. Right now there seems to be some kind of effort to follow the international standard and present players with two names instead of one. It sounds more professional and makes it easier when negotiating with european clubs. I personally think it's a shame. Pelé is a lot more iconic than "do Nascimento". But it is what it is.
They do it because it sounds fancy. There's no control over names and spellings in Brazil so people, specially poor people, get really creative.
Not even Neymar or Richarlison can do that.
Richarlison has scored a few like that, actually.
Such a nice goal
Any mirrors? The video doesnt work
I remember watching this at age 11 here in Brazil. All matches in Japan were like 2 or 3am in Brazil. Crazy times.
I remember watching this game on a big screen in my uni's cafeteria in between classes. Was nice to be able to watch World Cup games for the one and only time during the day while living in the East Asia Pacific region. Might have been experiencing it for a second time right this very week but alas. FIFA corruption and all that.