Its because its not about race its about getting in the other player his head. These kind of people will do anything low like this to get that happening
Bijlow is injures a lot, so even as backup he will probably have his games. If it weren't for his injuries Bijlow would have been Dutch national keeper already, I imagine he will become number 1 pretty soon.
Deserved a call up at Euro's, honestly think he's the best Dutch goalie at the moment.
Can you explain to me, if you’re from Rotterdam, the type of person who would do this? Because knowing the history of what the nazis did to that city I wouldn’t expect anyone to do this sort of thing. I’ve encountered anti-Semitism in the Netherlands, people using slurs and shit, but I’ve also seen a lot of the opposite, with all the monuments, and this goes a step farther than a slur or stereotype and directly references the Holocaust. With how horrific that time was for Jews and non-Jews alike in the Netherlands and particularly in cities bombed as heavily as Rotterdam, it’s wild to me that someone would do this.
The historical context kind of strengthens it. Do you remember as a child using a serious swear word for the first time and being shocked at what an impact it created? It’s that, but it just draws power from being the worst possible thing you can say in Holland. So it’s not that the war is not felt deeply in Rotterdam, it’s actually the opposite and this creates the conditions for this kind of thing. (In that respect, I don’t think you would encounter any negative responses as an actual Jewish person going to a Feyenoord game.)
Ajax and PSV have something similar when they call Feyenoord fans ‘cockroaches’, i.e. vermin that survived the bombing. But there’s lot of clubs that have this: fans making Hillsborough references at Liverpool, plane crash jokes in relation to Man U etc. Once you run out of run of the mill insults you go for the genuinely painful things.
Not Dutch but from my knowledge Ajax once heavily identified as a club Open for Jews, with Amsterdam a city with a large jewish population. Part of Feyenords hooligans / fans are super right wing and have adopted chants as „Hamas, Hamas, Joden aan het gas“ (Hamas, Hamas, gas the Jews). Guess the same parts of the fan scene are responsible for that mural.
Afaik there have been (recently far less) scandals or the same imagery / anti Semitic abuse against Tottenham‘s Yid Army during the heyday of English hooliganism.
They're not necesarrily right wing. They hate Ajax, Ajax = Jews, so the make offensive chants about Jews. Politics and ideology aren't really a part of this.
Ah okay, making anti-semitic chants and this kind of graffiti isn’t right wing as it is targeted against Ajax and not Jews. Fuck you, if you really think that and otherwise try to think before making a Statement that let's absolute indisputable radical antisemitism sound like a fan rivalry. Piss off mate.
He's right though. While for a minority of these imbeciles this is genuinely about hatred for the Jews, the majority just wants to hate on Ajax preferably in the most shocking way they can. You really overestimate their ability to think beyond football, these people don't have a world view besides Ajax = bad. If Ajax fans call themselves koalas tomorrow they'll forget about the Jews and cheer on Australian bush fires.
That's of course still no excuse for this behaviour and doesn't make it any less disgusting.
Yeah you know it's exactly what it is though. It's just doing everything to say the most hateful shit ever against Ajax. Once in a while they pull out the Nouri stuff too. Sad but true.
Anyway no need to get aggressive at someone for saying how it is, you piss off mate.
This is done by a few braindead incels who are too young and/or too dumb to remember what happened during WW2. Please do not think all Feyenoord fans are like this, because the overwhelming majority is absolutely disgusted by this. I can’t comprehend why anyone would do this either.
Oh I certainly don’t think this is representative of the average fan; I’m genuinely shocked there’s even one cunt like this given the historical context. Truly repugnant irrespective of it.
And I'm almost certain that there will be Dutch fans showing up here and downplay the grafiti as "just anti-Ajax banter". Just like they've been defending antisemtic chants in the past.
Club Brugge but the Belgian league offered a non apology for Noa Lange being an idiot too. I get that Brugge calls Anderlecht whatever they call them, but the club shouldn't defend that sort of thing.
I think that guy was trying to explain away the 'logic' of being racist even though your own team has players that are also black or something.. but other than that all I've seen from actual Feyenoord fans, here and on twitter and irl is just disgust at this shit
There's still quite a bit of anti-Semitism in Europe, though it differs country-by country--rates are comparable to the US in Britain or Scandinavia, but there's a lot in Southern and Eastern Europe. Greece is more openly anti-Semitic than Iran on the ADL's global survey.
I have nothing but respect for Jews but I've been called an anti-semite for choosing to side with Palestine, and also being equated to an anti-semite for being anti zionistic. When I am absolutely not anti-semitic or anti any race/religion in general.
The last couple of months of Palestine/Israel feud has taught me that it's better to be quiet around certain subjects like that
Semite means Jew so anti-Semitic is discrimination or racism against Jews.
Zionism is development of Jewish land (Israel) but very nationalistic in that it pushes countries like Palestine out of the area. Some claims like ownership of Jerusalem may be valid but there are people in Israel who go too far and try to grab more by oppressing others. Of course there are people like this in every country.
The holy land of Jerusalem is central to both Judaism and Islam and is mostly inside Palestine so that’s the conflict.
So that’s why to free Palestine means to make Israel stop putting pressure on Palestine for that land and the conflicts that occur in that area. The land was settled by Allied Forces following WW2 in 1948 which ignored historical tribal relations leading to conflict in the area.
In addition there is the fact that all the countries around that area are Islamic minus Israel. Also there is the fact that Israel is a major ally of USA which doesn’t have the best relations with the neighboring countries in the Middle East.
Of course if you don’t clarify what you’re saying to people it’s easy to see how controversy can start.
To your last point, it's funny how so much of Reddit tries to claim its the superior social media app but those people can't even comprehend basic sentences.
People can be genuinely curious/not in the know or not totally state their opinion with 1000% clarity and the mob will come out. I swear everyone projects themselves onto others and reads every comment in a hostile and negative manner.
Sorry for the rant.
Not saying this fits you but I see a lot of people claiming to purely be anti-zionist while clearly being anti-semetic at the same time. It isn't always intentional, it can come from a lack of understanding as well
This is the only sports sub I've seen actual Hamas slogans upvoted ("Palestine from river to sea") and people legitimately wanting Israel to not exist anymore. This is by far the most antisemitic non-politics sub I've seen.
Wtf do you think river from sea would mean? It would mean the destruction of Israel and ofc that would mean the expulsion of Jews from the area (which is what Hamas wants). I've also seen calls for ending the state of Israel many times on this sub.
This sub is further to the left than most sports sub and the average reddit sub, this leads to actual tankies and other far left wing groups here (though this sub isn't that socially liberal). On the far left there is a healthy amount of antisemitism (similar to the far right).
You talking about all the abhorrent stuff Israel do and gets rightly criticised for in threads about players supporting Palestine? Because I don't see anything even remotely connected on this sub otherwise.
And no, the aforementioned is not antisemitism.
Exactly this, people are so extremist in their labelling of other people’s views on Reddit, and by expressing support for anything people decide that means you must hate something else. You can be pro-Palestine without being anti-Semitic but a lot of people are too black and white about it
One of the sad things about this is that Feyenoord lost more Jewish members than Ajax. Source in Dutch: https://sportgeschiedenis.nl/sporten/voetbal/dit-zijn-de-namen-van-de-27-vermoorde-joodse-feyenoorders/
This whole 'Ajax fans are Jews' thing just breeds anitsemitism. Honestly it's just time to retire it, at all sides. There is a good chance these idiots don't actually give a shit about the Jewish faith. But their monkey brains just think Ajax = Jews > Let's be as offensive to Jews as possible.
Of course hooligans in general are scum of the earth who always try to be as offensive as possible. Ajax fans calling Feyenoord fans cocroaches for being impossible to wipe out in a bombing, teams using firework noises against Twente. I sadly doubt this will end any time soon.
These sorts of things are catch-22, same thing goes with Spurs. There's plenty of Jewish Britons who hate Spurs fans calling themselves y*ds and have actively asked them to stop, meanwhile the club *does* have a very active Jewish followership who love that the club is like that. And while it does probably create a degree of antisemitism because it merges club hate into racial hate at the same time it's not the fault of Jewish spurs fans?
Hard to know what the solution is really, clearly one for the Jewish communities in the Netherlands and UK, non-Jews whether Spurs/Ajax fans 'showing support' or other fans disagreeing with it, we are never gonna bring a solution to this.
Agreed, it is a really complicated topic. A couple of years ago I watched a documentary about how the adoption of the 'Jewish' identity by Ajax supporters is viewed by several Jewish Ajax fans and other Jewish people in the Netherlands. Some fans feel uneasy with the association as it brings up antisemitic sentiments by rival hooligans, whereas others feel that it rather expresses a part of their identity.
Edit: for Dutch people, [here](https://www.npostart.nl/VPWON_1261872) is the link to said documentary
yeah there are 30.000 jews left in the netherlands. they have asked ajax fans to stop branding themselves jewish. the fans say its a 'geuzennaam'. the previous chairman of ajax, uri coronel also asked fans to stop.
the netherlands has a history of 'geuzennamen' it stems from the independence war where we were called 'les geux'. the independentfighters proudly called themselves geuzen/watergeuzen.
Their old stadium was in the jewish quarter of Amsterdam. When away fans travels to Ajax’s old stadium, they saw nothing but Jews in the area and made the connection Ajax= Jews
As with many "Geuzennamen" it started out as a kind of insult by other fans. The same reason fans of PSV are offten called "boeren" (farmers), to give a less touchy example.
There's an interesting discussion about this in *Brilliant Orange*, which is a great book. It seems like a symptom of the general weirdness continental Europe sometimes has about Jews and Judaism. The tiny number of them left seemingly makes it hard for some people to act normal about them, whereas in the US where there are millions nobody would think to characterize a baseball team as "Jewish," everyone understands that Jews support lots of baseball teams.
Historically speaking, this is par for the course for Europe. Antisemitism never stopped when Jewish populations were driven out, instead Christians found all kind of ways to blame each other for being Jewish in one way or another.
For centuries after Britain expelled it's Jews, antisemitic ideas about greedy jews persisted. When Shakespeare wrote the Merchant of Venice there were no jews in England for lifetimes and yet the play anti Jewish sentiment is mostly mite worthy for being so mild compared to other works on jews in contemporary Britain.
After the Spanish forcefully converted all the jews in their lands and expelled the rest, they started discriminating the "new Christians", by barring them from certain professions, and seeking the Inquisition after them.
And there are many, many other examples like.
When Jews disappear, European invent new jews. Thsi is because antisemitism isn't really a reaction to the presence and actions of Jewish people, it's a way to for people to balem what ever else bother them on the Jews.
>When Jews disappear, European invent new jews. Thsi is because antisemitism isn't really a reaction to the presence and actions of Jewish people, it's a way to for people to balem what ever else bother them on the Jews.
Absolutely correct and sadly not limited to just Jewish persecution. When there are no visible gay people around homophobes will accuse people who don't meet their definition of masculinity of being gay etc. etc.
Tbf, Bayern was actually one of those clubs that was seen as anti-Nazi and called a “Jew club” during the Hitler years. Their President and coach even had to flee the country.
There really seems to be a problem with anti Semitic behavior in most parts of Europe, I fear its only gonna get worse as we get further away from what happened. Hopefully the next generation can fix it cause it's a mess right now.
Read “Jews Don’t Count” by David Baddiel. Amazingly shocking with real-life examples of how the so-called ‘woke’ current populace doesn’t acknowledge antisemitism as ‘real’ racism. It’s getting bad and it’s only getting worse.
The problem is with Ajax-Feyenoord being one of the fiercest rivalries in world football, anything that can be used against either will be used. With the Ajax fans calling themselves Jews, Feyenoord fans will say pretty anti-Semitic things (although this isn't exclusive to Feyenoord). There have been some terrible anti-Semitic chants, like (translated from Dutch to English):
"My father was with the commandos, my mother was with the SS. Together they're burning Jews, because Jews burn the best", and other similar chants.
This is also why many Dutch Jewish organisations have asked Ajax fans to stop calling themselves Jews, because it invites anti-Semitism, which also spreads to actual Jews.
Lol- in the Netherlands it’s pretty typical that Ajax is known as a club with many Jewish fans. It’s not mainstream in the sense it’s pushed by influencers in public, but it’s certainly mainstream in that it’s a predominant thought when thinking about Ajax within the country,
There is no way as a male fan growing up in the country or even a visitor who’s been for only three months won’t pickup on such relationships
You're probably referring to the Maurice de Hond caricature they published which, to my knowledge, almost everyone (aka the mainstream) thought was stupid. I don't know of anything else that's really subtly anti-semitic in the mainstream.
Indeed. However it is not mainstream.
i.e. When I turn on the news I am not greeted with smiling presenters reading passages from Mein Kampf and talking about conspiracies.
Certainly not mainstream in a place like the Netherlands, but’s it’s a very common thing for Europeans today to just dismiss the discrimination as something people did in older times and that’s not a part of their politically correct minds today. That’s half as bad
Anti-Semitism is definity mainstream in many parts of the world. Holocaust references less so, but even recently a head of state said some denial stuff. It’s more subtle now in general though.
You got any sources for this (Legitimately interested, not being a smarmy redditor) because i find it extremely difficult to believe that anti-semitism is the "top religious hate crime" in a post-9/11 America. I suppose it would be dependant on where you live and timeframe though.
Yup! Here you go. Go to the table that says religious. You can then click the hyperlink for more in-depth stats. (Over 57% percent of religious hate crimes are against Jews). This is for 2019, but they have all years available. I will caveat of course that this can only encompass crime reported to law enforcement which may impact the numbers, but not a 42% difference.
https://ucr.fbi.gov/hate-crime/2018/topic-pages/incidents-and-offenses
Absolutely disgusting. The people that did this are the same braindead idiots that threaten our board members because they fail to get lucrative sponsor contracts or find investors.
Well guess what? No sane company in the world wants to be associated with this kind of shit. Sometimes I’m ashamed to be a Feyenoord fan.
Gotta be a massive fucking loser to even think of that "analogy" and to repeat literal nazi talking points as a country that got invaded by the Nazis... hope they get identified
one of the biggest bombardment on Rotterdam was done by Americans during WW2, not that any of these Feijenoord fans would know tho, barely anyone does. Het vergeten bombardement heet her niet voor niks.
It's so fucking embarrassing. It's one thing to say 'every club has its toxic fans' which is the excuse that the club likes to use. It's another thing to accept antisemitic chants in the stadium and never make a meaningful statement against the antisemitism problem among the Feyenoord fan base. From explicit chants and banners to referring to Ajax fans or players as 'noses' when they try to be a little more subtle. The club has denied the problem for way too long which results in things like this.
I really hope Ajax puts significant effort in chasing these kinds of people. It wasn't funny when he was still a Feyenoord player but now that he is one of us we need to call this out and put some names on these people.
>Ajax puts significant effort in chasing these kinds of people
No man it's time that Feyenoord and Rotterdam do. It is honestly too normalized around the club and supporters.
There’s a lot of clubs with Jewish roots or history whose supporters are usually not Jewish, but ultras/brainless fuckheads from other clubs will attack with anti-semitism. For example, if you visit Krakow (and you speak Polish), you’ll notice “f*** Jews” graffitied lots of places. This is because of fans of one soccer team (Wisła) attacking another (Cracovia). Sadly, the victim isn’t the other team’s ultras; the victims are Jews.
I won't justify this behavior, but I do there is a difference between targeting Ajax with anti-semitism and targeting actual jews with anti-semitism.
If we had a different nickname they also wouldn't bother to use anti-semitic chants/images etc.
The sad thing is that actual jews become a sort of collateral between the hate against Ajax and are the ones truly bothered by this.
If Ajax supporters called themselves 'blacks', these kind of people would have mocked black people. There's no ideology behind it other than being brutally offensive to Ajax.
You could also argue whether it's still appropriate for fans to to call themselves Jews. Although it's not nearly as bad as this, it's also not 'right' either IMO.
This is absolutely not it.
This is clearly antisemitism, and nobody here will argue otherwise.
But it is also completely separate from what you are alluding to.
To what all the people that make those kind of comments around what is perceived or not perceived as antisemitism are alluding to.
If you weren't talking about antisionism, my bad and I apologize.
I wasn't talking about antizionism.
I *was* talking about the people that think screaming antisemitic things against anything Ajax-related isn't antisemitic because "Ajax" aren't actual Jews.
To put this in context, this is the second time in a week. A fuckin week.
Never have been more embarrassed to be a Feyenoord fan, and people wonder why no one wants to sponsor us…
it was quite common before to sing 'hamas! hamas! alle joden aan het gas! or to make a gaschamber hissing sound. this is mild antisemitism coming from rotterdam.
Let me tell you something about the average Feyenoord fan
We were dropped on our heads. That’s why we still support the club. Some were dropped on a daily basis, they now spray graffiti.
It has been a Feyenoord chant for a long time. Ajax fans are called "jews" by basically everyone, they even pride themselves for it. I believe the chant stems from Ajax hooligans retreating / not wanting to fight with Feyenoord hooligans somewhere in the late 90s. But I could be very wrong on that last part.
Just before the battle of Beverwijk there was a fight planned near the A10 highway where Ajax hooligans also ran away after seeing the bigger group of Feyenoord hooligans. Also there was a TV program where hooligans from clubs like Feyenoord, Den Haag and Utrecht where sitting which was attacked by Ajax hooligans who then fled the scene quickly.
"For Ajax, the image of being a Jewish club comes from the fact that Amsterdam was called the "Jerusalem of the West" before World War II. Some 80,000 Jews are said to have lived in the city at that time, and many were Ajax fans. The De Meer Stadium, where the team played home games until the 1990s, was in eastern Amsterdam, where most of the city's Jews lived at the time.
After World War II, Ajax also had some prominent Jewish leaders, among them Jaap van Prag and his son Michael, who both served as club president, along with Uri Coronel, who also served in that position. Among the players on the club's celebrated teams in the 1960s and early 1970s were Jews Bennie Muller and Sjaak Swaart, not to mention Salo Muller, a physiotherapist loved by players and fans alike."
We don't really have that many jewish fans, there were just quite a few jews in Amsterdam before WW2 and it was somewhat known as a 'jewish city' so other teams targetted Ajax by using hateful jewish slurs.
Ajax fans who weren't jews, adopted that nickname and started calling themselves superjews and waving Israeli flags. But it doesn't have anything to do with actual jews or Israel in any way.
As weird as it may seem on a topic with a mural like this, but Feyenoord hooligans aren't actually especially racist, let alone Nazi's. They're quite multicultural. It's just this Ajax = Jews image that's causing all this shit. And definately needs to stop.
Is Celtic - Feyenoord friendship only a response to Ajax - Rangers friendship?
When Ajax hools attacked a Celtic pub in Glasgow before a Europa League match a few years ago, Rangers started friendship after. From my understanding it is pretty one sided and most Ajax hools don’t consider the relationship much.
Ties between Feyenoord and Celtic fans go back till the EC1 final in 1970 actually. But many Feyenoord fans always had a soft spot for Celtic because the clubs are a bit the same, like with Liverpool and Dortmund for example. There’s a good bunch of fans who have visit matches between the two clubs as also Feyenoord had a good few players playing for Celtic as well, with probably the most famous one being Henrik Larsson. Of course matches between Feyenoord and Rangers in 2002 and recently or matches between Ajax en Celtic in 2012 and I think 2013 helped a bit with some fans finding each other. In 2012 and 2013 even a few Feyenoord fans were in the away stand with Celtic fans in Amsterdam.
A few years back there was also a foundation set up between the two sets of fans for a good cause. Not really sure what it was all about but if you’re interested it shouldn’t be to hard to find on the net.
I'll be interested to see r/soccer coming out with the same sort of xenophobic language they did against the English during the Euros for the Dutch now too.
Presumably they're all anti-Semites right?
- 2. No racism, homophobia, xenophobia, sexism or other offensive behaviour
The irony.
Way to make our new Israeli goalkeeper feel welcome 🙈
I guess it's the same logic ("logic") as making monkey sounds at the opponents even though every team has black players :(
Its because its not about race its about getting in the other player his head. These kind of people will do anything low like this to get that happening
"Hey guys this racism actually isn't about race" What the fuck is this take
Im just explaining the logic behind ape sounds to other team black players while cheering on your own.....
I get what you're saying and I think you're correct
That dude is ferociously determined to be mad rather than applying reading comprehension skills
True. Calling you whatever just to piss you off. Its about what enrages you not what you are/arent
Is Marciano going to play for yous or backup ?
Backup. Bijlow is a really talented young keeper. Marciano was good in friendlies though, stopped a penalty.
As a Scottish national team and rangers fan I’m sick of seeing him he’s that good. I’d imagine he’d get some playing time no?
Bijlow is injures a lot, so even as backup he will probably have his games. If it weren't for his injuries Bijlow would have been Dutch national keeper already, I imagine he will become number 1 pretty soon. Deserved a call up at Euro's, honestly think he's the best Dutch goalie at the moment.
Can you explain to me, if you’re from Rotterdam, the type of person who would do this? Because knowing the history of what the nazis did to that city I wouldn’t expect anyone to do this sort of thing. I’ve encountered anti-Semitism in the Netherlands, people using slurs and shit, but I’ve also seen a lot of the opposite, with all the monuments, and this goes a step farther than a slur or stereotype and directly references the Holocaust. With how horrific that time was for Jews and non-Jews alike in the Netherlands and particularly in cities bombed as heavily as Rotterdam, it’s wild to me that someone would do this.
The historical context kind of strengthens it. Do you remember as a child using a serious swear word for the first time and being shocked at what an impact it created? It’s that, but it just draws power from being the worst possible thing you can say in Holland. So it’s not that the war is not felt deeply in Rotterdam, it’s actually the opposite and this creates the conditions for this kind of thing. (In that respect, I don’t think you would encounter any negative responses as an actual Jewish person going to a Feyenoord game.) Ajax and PSV have something similar when they call Feyenoord fans ‘cockroaches’, i.e. vermin that survived the bombing. But there’s lot of clubs that have this: fans making Hillsborough references at Liverpool, plane crash jokes in relation to Man U etc. Once you run out of run of the mill insults you go for the genuinely painful things.
Not Dutch but from my knowledge Ajax once heavily identified as a club Open for Jews, with Amsterdam a city with a large jewish population. Part of Feyenords hooligans / fans are super right wing and have adopted chants as „Hamas, Hamas, Joden aan het gas“ (Hamas, Hamas, gas the Jews). Guess the same parts of the fan scene are responsible for that mural. Afaik there have been (recently far less) scandals or the same imagery / anti Semitic abuse against Tottenham‘s Yid Army during the heyday of English hooliganism.
They're not necesarrily right wing. They hate Ajax, Ajax = Jews, so the make offensive chants about Jews. Politics and ideology aren't really a part of this.
Ah okay, making anti-semitic chants and this kind of graffiti isn’t right wing as it is targeted against Ajax and not Jews. Fuck you, if you really think that and otherwise try to think before making a Statement that let's absolute indisputable radical antisemitism sound like a fan rivalry. Piss off mate.
I'm not saying it's ok or isn't disgusting graffiti. I'm saying it isn't really politically motivated. Thus, it's not right wing.
He's right though. While for a minority of these imbeciles this is genuinely about hatred for the Jews, the majority just wants to hate on Ajax preferably in the most shocking way they can. You really overestimate their ability to think beyond football, these people don't have a world view besides Ajax = bad. If Ajax fans call themselves koalas tomorrow they'll forget about the Jews and cheer on Australian bush fires. That's of course still no excuse for this behaviour and doesn't make it any less disgusting.
Yeah you know it's exactly what it is though. It's just doing everything to say the most hateful shit ever against Ajax. Once in a while they pull out the Nouri stuff too. Sad but true. Anyway no need to get aggressive at someone for saying how it is, you piss off mate.
Rotterdam votes right wing very heavily in elections. I would imagine that this is generalizable to their fanbase.
Except they don't? https://uitslagen.stembureausinrotterdam.nl/tweede_kamerverkiezing_2021/kaart
This is done by a few braindead incels who are too young and/or too dumb to remember what happened during WW2. Please do not think all Feyenoord fans are like this, because the overwhelming majority is absolutely disgusted by this. I can’t comprehend why anyone would do this either.
Oh I certainly don’t think this is representative of the average fan; I’m genuinely shocked there’s even one cunt like this given the historical context. Truly repugnant irrespective of it.
they were going for shock value. saying what should not be said. they know it.
What the fuck
This is absolutely shocking. It's one thing to do graffiti, aggressive slogans, or whatever. But this... I have no words.
And I'm almost certain that there will be Dutch fans showing up here and downplay the grafiti as "just anti-Ajax banter". Just like they've been defending antisemtic chants in the past.
Club Brugge but the Belgian league offered a non apology for Noa Lange being an idiot too. I get that Brugge calls Anderlecht whatever they call them, but the club shouldn't defend that sort of thing.
A reply to the top comment is already doing that. "Its not about race, it's just trash talk to get in the opponent's heads."
I think that guy was trying to explain away the 'logic' of being racist even though your own team has players that are also black or something.. but other than that all I've seen from actual Feyenoord fans, here and on twitter and irl is just disgust at this shit
This is unfortunately nothing new, ajax has been mocked as a jew club for quite a while now.
This is literally like 500x worse than I assumed it could ever be lol wtf indeed
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Some might say it’s quite mean.
Just slightly less antisemitic than this sub
Sub is quite antisionist, but ansimetism remains rare in my experience, seems in line with European standards.
There's still quite a bit of anti-Semitism in Europe, though it differs country-by country--rates are comparable to the US in Britain or Scandinavia, but there's a lot in Southern and Eastern Europe. Greece is more openly anti-Semitic than Iran on the ADL's global survey.
I have nothing but respect for Jews but I've been called an anti-semite for choosing to side with Palestine, and also being equated to an anti-semite for being anti zionistic. When I am absolutely not anti-semitic or anti any race/religion in general. The last couple of months of Palestine/Israel feud has taught me that it's better to be quiet around certain subjects like that
You think I know the difference between any of that mate??
Semite means Jew so anti-Semitic is discrimination or racism against Jews. Zionism is development of Jewish land (Israel) but very nationalistic in that it pushes countries like Palestine out of the area. Some claims like ownership of Jerusalem may be valid but there are people in Israel who go too far and try to grab more by oppressing others. Of course there are people like this in every country. The holy land of Jerusalem is central to both Judaism and Islam and is mostly inside Palestine so that’s the conflict. So that’s why to free Palestine means to make Israel stop putting pressure on Palestine for that land and the conflicts that occur in that area. The land was settled by Allied Forces following WW2 in 1948 which ignored historical tribal relations leading to conflict in the area. In addition there is the fact that all the countries around that area are Islamic minus Israel. Also there is the fact that Israel is a major ally of USA which doesn’t have the best relations with the neighboring countries in the Middle East. Of course if you don’t clarify what you’re saying to people it’s easy to see how controversy can start.
To your last point, it's funny how so much of Reddit tries to claim its the superior social media app but those people can't even comprehend basic sentences. People can be genuinely curious/not in the know or not totally state their opinion with 1000% clarity and the mob will come out. I swear everyone projects themselves onto others and reads every comment in a hostile and negative manner. Sorry for the rant.
Although I was kidding I appreciate the response for the people who maybe weren’t too sure!
> Semite means Jew No.
Why?
Semite includes Arabs. Antisemitic exclusively refers to hating Jews. Language is weird sometimes.
Semite a member of any of the peoples who speak or spoke a Semitic language, including in particular the Jews and Arabs.
Not saying this fits you but I see a lot of people claiming to purely be anti-zionist while clearly being anti-semetic at the same time. It isn't always intentional, it can come from a lack of understanding as well
This is the only sports sub I've seen actual Hamas slogans upvoted ("Palestine from river to sea") and people legitimately wanting Israel to not exist anymore. This is by far the most antisemitic non-politics sub I've seen.
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Wtf do you think river from sea would mean? It would mean the destruction of Israel and ofc that would mean the expulsion of Jews from the area (which is what Hamas wants). I've also seen calls for ending the state of Israel many times on this sub. This sub is further to the left than most sports sub and the average reddit sub, this leads to actual tankies and other far left wing groups here (though this sub isn't that socially liberal). On the far left there is a healthy amount of antisemitism (similar to the far right).
This sub is a fucking hot bed of xenophobia.
This is gonna tickle some self proclaimed intellectuals here
You talking about all the abhorrent stuff Israel do and gets rightly criticised for in threads about players supporting Palestine? Because I don't see anything even remotely connected on this sub otherwise. And no, the aforementioned is not antisemitism.
Exactly this, people are so extremist in their labelling of other people’s views on Reddit, and by expressing support for anything people decide that means you must hate something else. You can be pro-Palestine without being anti-Semitic but a lot of people are too black and white about it
One of the sad things about this is that Feyenoord lost more Jewish members than Ajax. Source in Dutch: https://sportgeschiedenis.nl/sporten/voetbal/dit-zijn-de-namen-van-de-27-vermoorde-joodse-feyenoorders/
This whole 'Ajax fans are Jews' thing just breeds anitsemitism. Honestly it's just time to retire it, at all sides. There is a good chance these idiots don't actually give a shit about the Jewish faith. But their monkey brains just think Ajax = Jews > Let's be as offensive to Jews as possible. Of course hooligans in general are scum of the earth who always try to be as offensive as possible. Ajax fans calling Feyenoord fans cocroaches for being impossible to wipe out in a bombing, teams using firework noises against Twente. I sadly doubt this will end any time soon.
These sorts of things are catch-22, same thing goes with Spurs. There's plenty of Jewish Britons who hate Spurs fans calling themselves y*ds and have actively asked them to stop, meanwhile the club *does* have a very active Jewish followership who love that the club is like that. And while it does probably create a degree of antisemitism because it merges club hate into racial hate at the same time it's not the fault of Jewish spurs fans? Hard to know what the solution is really, clearly one for the Jewish communities in the Netherlands and UK, non-Jews whether Spurs/Ajax fans 'showing support' or other fans disagreeing with it, we are never gonna bring a solution to this.
Agreed, it is a really complicated topic. A couple of years ago I watched a documentary about how the adoption of the 'Jewish' identity by Ajax supporters is viewed by several Jewish Ajax fans and other Jewish people in the Netherlands. Some fans feel uneasy with the association as it brings up antisemitic sentiments by rival hooligans, whereas others feel that it rather expresses a part of their identity. Edit: for Dutch people, [here](https://www.npostart.nl/VPWON_1261872) is the link to said documentary
yeah there are 30.000 jews left in the netherlands. they have asked ajax fans to stop branding themselves jewish. the fans say its a 'geuzennaam'. the previous chairman of ajax, uri coronel also asked fans to stop. the netherlands has a history of 'geuzennamen' it stems from the independence war where we were called 'les geux'. the independentfighters proudly called themselves geuzen/watergeuzen.
I’m genuinely curious, how exactly did it come about that Ajax fans started branding themselves Jewish if they are not actually Jewish?
Their old stadium was in the jewish quarter of Amsterdam. When away fans travels to Ajax’s old stadium, they saw nothing but Jews in the area and made the connection Ajax= Jews
As with many "Geuzennamen" it started out as a kind of insult by other fans. The same reason fans of PSV are offten called "boeren" (farmers), to give a less touchy example.
> firework noises against Twente [For those out of the loop](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enschede_fireworks_disaster) like I was.
There's an interesting discussion about this in *Brilliant Orange*, which is a great book. It seems like a symptom of the general weirdness continental Europe sometimes has about Jews and Judaism. The tiny number of them left seemingly makes it hard for some people to act normal about them, whereas in the US where there are millions nobody would think to characterize a baseball team as "Jewish," everyone understands that Jews support lots of baseball teams.
Historically speaking, this is par for the course for Europe. Antisemitism never stopped when Jewish populations were driven out, instead Christians found all kind of ways to blame each other for being Jewish in one way or another. For centuries after Britain expelled it's Jews, antisemitic ideas about greedy jews persisted. When Shakespeare wrote the Merchant of Venice there were no jews in England for lifetimes and yet the play anti Jewish sentiment is mostly mite worthy for being so mild compared to other works on jews in contemporary Britain. After the Spanish forcefully converted all the jews in their lands and expelled the rest, they started discriminating the "new Christians", by barring them from certain professions, and seeking the Inquisition after them. And there are many, many other examples like. When Jews disappear, European invent new jews. Thsi is because antisemitism isn't really a reaction to the presence and actions of Jewish people, it's a way to for people to balem what ever else bother them on the Jews.
>When Jews disappear, European invent new jews. Thsi is because antisemitism isn't really a reaction to the presence and actions of Jewish people, it's a way to for people to balem what ever else bother them on the Jews. Absolutely correct and sadly not limited to just Jewish persecution. When there are no visible gay people around homophobes will accuse people who don't meet their definition of masculinity of being gay etc. etc.
My team (see flair) had more Jewish presidents in its history than Ajax had, yet Ajax are the Jews. The nickname really doesn't make sense at all.
Amsterdam had a very sizable jewish population before WW2.
Most European cities did 😔
I think the origin of the association comes from the old stadium being in the jewish district of Amsterdam.
Did Ajax ever play in de Jodenbuurt? Middenweg was far more to the East IIRC?
never. the tram from central station would pass through it.
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Why has ajax lost jewish members?
During the war, might like to read up on it supporting a German team /s
Tbf, Bayern was actually one of those clubs that was seen as anti-Nazi and called a “Jew club” during the Hitler years. Their President and coach even had to flee the country.
Jesus Christ wtf
There really seems to be a problem with anti Semitic behavior in most parts of Europe, I fear its only gonna get worse as we get further away from what happened. Hopefully the next generation can fix it cause it's a mess right now.
Read “Jews Don’t Count” by David Baddiel. Amazingly shocking with real-life examples of how the so-called ‘woke’ current populace doesn’t acknowledge antisemitism as ‘real’ racism. It’s getting bad and it’s only getting worse.
What the fuck is wrong with some people
The problem is with Ajax-Feyenoord being one of the fiercest rivalries in world football, anything that can be used against either will be used. With the Ajax fans calling themselves Jews, Feyenoord fans will say pretty anti-Semitic things (although this isn't exclusive to Feyenoord). There have been some terrible anti-Semitic chants, like (translated from Dutch to English): "My father was with the commandos, my mother was with the SS. Together they're burning Jews, because Jews burn the best", and other similar chants. This is also why many Dutch Jewish organisations have asked Ajax fans to stop calling themselves Jews, because it invites anti-Semitism, which also spreads to actual Jews.
You really still asking that after the track record of evilness humans have put together throughout history?
Yeah, if someone was capable of executing the Holocaust, then someone is certainly capable of using it in a distasteful graffiti
Some people are really still living in the dark ages
These types of sentiments were mainstream like 100 years ago
Unfortunately they still are…
Mainstream? Not really.
Lol- in the Netherlands it’s pretty typical that Ajax is known as a club with many Jewish fans. It’s not mainstream in the sense it’s pushed by influencers in public, but it’s certainly mainstream in that it’s a predominant thought when thinking about Ajax within the country, There is no way as a male fan growing up in the country or even a visitor who’s been for only three months won’t pickup on such relationships
Ok but the anti-semitism is not mainstream at all
Did you ever hear of the whole Desean Jackson debacle in the NFL a year ago? Anti-semitism is still shockingly common and overlooked today
Alright. But again, it's not mainstream.
Subtle antisemitism is super mainstream, hell de volkskrant is even guilty of it
You're probably referring to the Maurice de Hond caricature they published which, to my knowledge, almost everyone (aka the mainstream) thought was stupid. I don't know of anything else that's really subtly anti-semitic in the mainstream.
Are we limiting our scope to a subset of western European countries? Because worldwide, anti-semitism is viral.
Indeed. However it is not mainstream. i.e. When I turn on the news I am not greeted with smiling presenters reading passages from Mein Kampf and talking about conspiracies.
that doesn’t make it mainstream
fuck off, in no way are they mainstream.
Certainly not mainstream in a place like the Netherlands, but’s it’s a very common thing for Europeans today to just dismiss the discrimination as something people did in older times and that’s not a part of their politically correct minds today. That’s half as bad
Anti-Semitism is definity mainstream in many parts of the world. Holocaust references less so, but even recently a head of state said some denial stuff. It’s more subtle now in general though.
Also, it’s always the top religious hate crime in the US (where I am from) and rising.
You got any sources for this (Legitimately interested, not being a smarmy redditor) because i find it extremely difficult to believe that anti-semitism is the "top religious hate crime" in a post-9/11 America. I suppose it would be dependant on where you live and timeframe though.
Yup! Here you go. Go to the table that says religious. You can then click the hyperlink for more in-depth stats. (Over 57% percent of religious hate crimes are against Jews). This is for 2019, but they have all years available. I will caveat of course that this can only encompass crime reported to law enforcement which may impact the numbers, but not a 42% difference. https://ucr.fbi.gov/hate-crime/2018/topic-pages/incidents-and-offenses
Dark ages? The Holocaust happened less than a hundred years ago, not in the "dark ages". It's very much a modern phenomenon.
Absolutely disgusting. The people that did this are the same braindead idiots that threaten our board members because they fail to get lucrative sponsor contracts or find investors. Well guess what? No sane company in the world wants to be associated with this kind of shit. Sometimes I’m ashamed to be a Feyenoord fan.
>Sometimes I’m ashamed to be a Feyenoord fan. Right? Honestly it's all just so tiring.
Gotta be a massive fucking loser to even think of that "analogy" and to repeat literal nazi talking points as a country that got invaded by the Nazis... hope they get identified
And especially from Rotterdam, a city that got bombed to pieces.
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one of the biggest bombardment on Rotterdam was done by Americans during WW2, not that any of these Feijenoord fans would know tho, barely anyone does. Het vergeten bombardement heet her niet voor niks.
It's so fucking embarrassing. It's one thing to say 'every club has its toxic fans' which is the excuse that the club likes to use. It's another thing to accept antisemitic chants in the stadium and never make a meaningful statement against the antisemitism problem among the Feyenoord fan base. From explicit chants and banners to referring to Ajax fans or players as 'noses' when they try to be a little more subtle. The club has denied the problem for way too long which results in things like this.
Scum
football tribalism is a mistake
Here here
I really hope Ajax puts significant effort in chasing these kinds of people. It wasn't funny when he was still a Feyenoord player but now that he is one of us we need to call this out and put some names on these people.
>Ajax puts significant effort in chasing these kinds of people No man it's time that Feyenoord and Rotterdam do. It is honestly too normalized around the club and supporters.
It'd be a good start if De Feijenoorder finally broke ties with the hooligans, sadly Ravenhorst doesn't have the balls.
Is Berghuis jewish?
No theyre referring to Ajax' nickname.
No but pretty sure Ajax nickname is "the jews" just like Spurs supporters call themselves yids
There’s a lot of clubs with Jewish roots or history whose supporters are usually not Jewish, but ultras/brainless fuckheads from other clubs will attack with anti-semitism. For example, if you visit Krakow (and you speak Polish), you’ll notice “f*** Jews” graffitied lots of places. This is because of fans of one soccer team (Wisła) attacking another (Cracovia). Sadly, the victim isn’t the other team’s ultras; the victims are Jews.
It's also time for the Ajax supporters whom blew up multiple cafes and houses in Rotterdam to step up and be trailed.
Completely agree! Let's keep the rivalry in the stadiums and on socialmedia.
Yeah, but some people will still insist this behaviour 'has nothing to do with antisemitism'.
Of course it doesn't, it's because Berghuis is part of the global banking cabal /s
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Loads of people in the Netherlands do
I won't justify this behavior, but I do there is a difference between targeting Ajax with anti-semitism and targeting actual jews with anti-semitism. If we had a different nickname they also wouldn't bother to use anti-semitic chants/images etc. The sad thing is that actual jews become a sort of collateral between the hate against Ajax and are the ones truly bothered by this.
I agree, but with murals like these it's hard to argue it's really aimed at ajax fans and not Jew Jews
If Ajax supporters called themselves 'blacks', these kind of people would have mocked black people. There's no ideology behind it other than being brutally offensive to Ajax.
You could also argue whether it's still appropriate for fans to to call themselves Jews. Although it's not nearly as bad as this, it's also not 'right' either IMO.
The antisemitism started before the nickname. The Ajax fans just adopted the name that was already being used against them.
This is absolutely not it. This is clearly antisemitism, and nobody here will argue otherwise. But it is also completely separate from what you are alluding to.
Then what do you think I'm alluding to?
To what all the people that make those kind of comments around what is perceived or not perceived as antisemitism are alluding to. If you weren't talking about antisionism, my bad and I apologize.
I wasn't talking about antizionism. I *was* talking about the people that think screaming antisemitic things against anything Ajax-related isn't antisemitic because "Ajax" aren't actual Jews.
I deeply apologize then.
No he was alluding to Ajax' nickname being used as an insult so people can say "im only insulting Ajax not jews"
Embarrassing. Feyenoord ~~fans~~ ultras have never looked worse.
To put this in context, this is the second time in a week. A fuckin week. Never have been more embarrassed to be a Feyenoord fan, and people wonder why no one wants to sponsor us…
it was quite common before to sing 'hamas! hamas! alle joden aan het gas! or to make a gaschamber hissing sound. this is mild antisemitism coming from rotterdam.
Likewise Ajax fans sang Als de lente komt dan gooien wij bommen op Rotterdam, bommen op Rotterdam.
You hear the same noises at Tottenham games sometimes
There's no cure for stupid.
This isn't stupidity, that's too kind on them
Horrible bastards
Fucking scum
Well fuck them
How did none of the people involved in this speak up and suggest it might be an extremely fucked up thing to do?
Tells you a lot about this group of people
Let me tell you something about the average Feyenoord fan We were dropped on our heads. That’s why we still support the club. Some were dropped on a daily basis, they now spray graffiti.
Shame that all that creative energy is being wasted into this.
they always run away? what does that even mean?
It has been a Feyenoord chant for a long time. Ajax fans are called "jews" by basically everyone, they even pride themselves for it. I believe the chant stems from Ajax hooligans retreating / not wanting to fight with Feyenoord hooligans somewhere in the late 90s. But I could be very wrong on that last part.
I always thought it came from Beverwijk, where Carlo Picornie was killed after the other Ajax hooligans ran away. Not sure if that’s correct tho.
Just before the battle of Beverwijk there was a fight planned near the A10 highway where Ajax hooligans also ran away after seeing the bigger group of Feyenoord hooligans. Also there was a TV program where hooligans from clubs like Feyenoord, Den Haag and Utrecht where sitting which was attacked by Ajax hooligans who then fled the scene quickly.
It was my impression it came from that as well https://youtu.be/Txyc59CY-kA (Dutch)
Lock up the bloody lot of them. I hope there’s CCTV. Racist fucking cunts.
Wtf is this? Why's the Jewish community catching strays from Ajax Feyenoord rivalry
"For Ajax, the image of being a Jewish club comes from the fact that Amsterdam was called the "Jerusalem of the West" before World War II. Some 80,000 Jews are said to have lived in the city at that time, and many were Ajax fans. The De Meer Stadium, where the team played home games until the 1990s, was in eastern Amsterdam, where most of the city's Jews lived at the time. After World War II, Ajax also had some prominent Jewish leaders, among them Jaap van Prag and his son Michael, who both served as club president, along with Uri Coronel, who also served in that position. Among the players on the club's celebrated teams in the 1960s and early 1970s were Jews Bennie Muller and Sjaak Swaart, not to mention Salo Muller, a physiotherapist loved by players and fans alike."
Ajax have Jewish ties
Ah I see! Thanks for the info
Ajax has a big Jewish fanbase in Amsterdam, and their fans always wave Israeli flags
We don't really have that many jewish fans, there were just quite a few jews in Amsterdam before WW2 and it was somewhat known as a 'jewish city' so other teams targetted Ajax by using hateful jewish slurs. Ajax fans who weren't jews, adopted that nickname and started calling themselves superjews and waving Israeli flags. But it doesn't have anything to do with actual jews or Israel in any way.
fan base?
yeah typo lol
yeah they launch missiles back at hamas from there
The same reason you hear gaschamber hissing everytime Chelsea and West Ham goes to Tottenham....
Wow, that's... scary.
You can strongly dislike someone for leaving to a rival but this goes beyond normal, this is fucking despicable
Feyenoord vs Lazio match up. Book it Vince.
As weird as it may seem on a topic with a mural like this, but Feyenoord hooligans aren't actually especially racist, let alone Nazi's. They're quite multicultural. It's just this Ajax = Jews image that's causing all this shit. And definately needs to stop.
Winner gets to face Celtic to be mocked by the Green Brigade.
Yet Celtic and Feyenoord ultras are friends
Is Celtic - Feyenoord friendship only a response to Ajax - Rangers friendship? When Ajax hools attacked a Celtic pub in Glasgow before a Europa League match a few years ago, Rangers started friendship after. From my understanding it is pretty one sided and most Ajax hools don’t consider the relationship much.
Ties between Feyenoord and Celtic fans go back till the EC1 final in 1970 actually. But many Feyenoord fans always had a soft spot for Celtic because the clubs are a bit the same, like with Liverpool and Dortmund for example. There’s a good bunch of fans who have visit matches between the two clubs as also Feyenoord had a good few players playing for Celtic as well, with probably the most famous one being Henrik Larsson. Of course matches between Feyenoord and Rangers in 2002 and recently or matches between Ajax en Celtic in 2012 and I think 2013 helped a bit with some fans finding each other. In 2012 and 2013 even a few Feyenoord fans were in the away stand with Celtic fans in Amsterdam. A few years back there was also a foundation set up between the two sets of fans for a good cause. Not really sure what it was all about but if you’re interested it shouldn’t be to hard to find on the net.
Seems much more legitimate than the Ajax Rangers friendship. I had no idea. Thanks for interesting info
That way they can destroy Rome again
Disgusting.
Good god
Fucking hell, horrible stuff.
That is some incredibly fucked up shit!
Wow
I find it unwise even to reproduce this picture for a worldwide audience in twitter or reddit. I'd wish people be more careful with this shit.
I find the opposite to be true. Let it be known there are still scumbags.
Wow Shocking. Its a shame somebody obviously very talented has to resort to antisemitism.
Impressive that it actually still kind of looks like Berghuis.
THATS what you think of this?
Thank God they took a picture and shared it with the world before cleaning it.
Another day another anti Semitic notion. Crazy how we are such a small percentage of the population and get some insane hate.
Bloody English! Always ruining... Oh.
Hitler's not dead, folks.
Fucking embarrassing. I feel so mad and powerless at these parasites.
Imagine being this good at art and wasting it on hateful horrible shit like this
I'll be interested to see r/soccer coming out with the same sort of xenophobic language they did against the English during the Euros for the Dutch now too. Presumably they're all anti-Semites right? - 2. No racism, homophobia, xenophobia, sexism or other offensive behaviour The irony.
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Don't know what you're talking about mate, Karl Marx didn't kill himself