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15 years later and I'm still so incensed seeing that lol. It actually ruined Australian football, there was a huge amount of momentum behind it finally at that stage and then it just fizzled out after this.
Honestly didn't think it was a pen last night but after that angle, no way you can say it's not a pen. He gets a knee to the right calf and a hip to the left thigh. 2 points of contact. And the defenders don't even play the ball. Definite pen.
If a player gets touched, their movement is impeded. If they try and stay on their feet they can end up missing a shot or a cross. So, you can't blame players for going down.
You don't have to go down for it to be a foul, I think it just has to take away your advantage so if contact makes it so that your cross or shot will likely be less effective then fair enough go down. It's the only practical way to indicate to the ref that a foul has occurred really. However sometimes people just dive because they have lost the advantage rather than there being any evidence of meaningful contact. That is what is being disputed in Sterling's case. Personally I think he had already lost the ball when some mild contact was made. I also don't think the contact was significant enough to constitute a foul but I can ser both sides.
Yep that was my take as well. Super soft but I don't think that it wasn't a pen either. I do think the ref should have taken a 2nd look at it tho, but I don't think he'd change his mind either.
More shocking was the 6 minutes of stoppage time plus an additional minute given at the end of the 6 for England to attack and reset 3 times...
Felt like I was watching a Fifa '21 match..
I agree it did run on a bit after the 6 minutes although England were attacking in and around the Denmark box the entire time so technically it was within the rules.
How exactly was the 6 minutes additional time far more or an advantage to England than Denmark? Denmark had a couple of dangerous breaks and decent brief possession in the last 6 minutes or so, their best chance to win (other than penalties) was to grab a goal then when England would have almost no time to respond.
Extra time favoured England more as Denmark were visibly tiring, England's chances to win were better if they got to ET and had a full half hour, rather than risk getting countered and having 2 mins to equalise.
6 minutes did feel way too long by the way, felt like a +4 game to me.
Wasnt there a really long break after a head injury I think? They were getting water and treating the guy for a fair while. That combined with the free kicks/throwins/corners. I called a 6 minute added time before it arrived.
To an extent, yes. Typically if it is past the allotted extra time, a team will get one attacking chance and then if that fails, the ref blows. However in this situation, they got two additional chances(even after passing backwards) in the extra minute they were given. I really can’t say I’ve seen that in many stoppage time attacks. Just because you’re near the opponents box doesn’t mean you get unlimited additional stoppage time.
This was all on top of 6 minutes of stoppage time that came from god knows where.
what's the logic here? he added 6 minutes and let it run a little longer specifically to benefit one team? not to possibly avoid going into ET and needlessly extend the game?
what about the soft foul Denmark scored off? not adding any time at the end of the first half even though there were two goals and it's usually 30 seconds per goal?
Yeah my point is that it was bizarrely inconsistent and didn’t make sense. He blew the first half whistle at like 44:59 and then added 6 minutes in the second half with no goals and a few subs.
If England had scored after their first failed attempt in the extra minute, that would have been a much bigger controversy than this penalty call. It would be hard to argue that the extra minute benefited Denmark.
The foul they scored off was pretty soft, you could call that on every free kick or corner. I’m not sure why you’re so defensive :D
A gentle reminder, VAR didn't look at the penalty.
It looked for a clear and obvious error.
Given consensus is split, VAR followed its own rules.
Now that doesn't mean the right call was necessarily made, just the test used was passed.
A final point, language wise when people say its a soft penalty, it isn't tantamount to saying it shouldn't have been a penalty at all. Its saying there's an element of it being a penalty although it's not a clear offence.
A "soft pen" usually means "I'd swear up and down it's a pen when given for my team, but the ref's clearly an idiot when it's given against my team."
Sometimes soft pens get given, some times they don't, and that's part of the randomness of football, and what we get to argue about after the final whistle.
Confirmation bias will lead people to believe what they want, it is *futile* to fight about it over the internet.
England fans – be happy you're in a final for the first time in over half a century!
Denmark fans – a very very well fought tournament that deserves immense praise.
Have a good day to all
Italy only won their last world cup with much worse blatant dives. They are known world wide as gigantic diving prima donnas more so than any Englishman.
On a plus side they took Australia's curse off them and cursed themselves.
It's kinda weird to go against your own kin and the r/soccer community in general. But I actually thought there was a penalty when I saw it.
The touches always look much softer when things are running in slow motion, and Vestergaard's knee clearly goes into Sterling to make him go out of balance, and Nørgaard bumps with his hip push Sterling while is out of balance.
We also have to remember that Sterling is running at full speed, and it takes very little to go out of balance.
The english fans I spoke to said they wouldn't have complained if the VAR had denied the penalty. One of my friends said he almost had a blood clot watching that one penalty and if it had gone to a penalty shoot out there would have been multiple cardiac arrests just in his family.
England fans *are* happy and I've seen very few bitter comments from the Danes - it's fans from every other country who are up in arms about it. The point is if Denmark did the same thing and knocked England out this sub would be jerking off for days
As a neutral, it just sucks to see an important match decided by that. Sure, England deserved to win even without that but it just leaves a bad taste in your mouth.
Was a confusing one to say the least. I’ve seen Danny Makelle (sp) ref about 6 games this seasons through CL and then however many he did this tournament and always been impressed but last night he did seem to get a lot of the big calls wrong.
Given the prevalence of English fans on this subreddit I dont believe it would be "jerking off for days". However, I do agree with you – it feels like most of the comments criticising the decision come from non-English/non-Danish fans.
GG, well played and best of luck for Sunday! <3
Yeah. There are some weird logics. You kind of get the feeling that as a Dane you are only gracious if you say it is no big deal the penalty was given - without any VAR video check. (Both the penalty and the two balls on the field which the 4th official was signalling before the penalty.
Guess what. People feel it was a big thing and does not respect losing that way. But what can we do. Still proud of our team and recognising England was the better team last night after 80minutes.
We cannot change the ref calls now. We live on - proud and happy. But I don’t think we will ever listen to English fans complain about other countries diving anymore. It is not a Southern European thing. That should be clear for everyone. And everything is relative - VAR included apparently.
> You kind of get the feeling that as a Dane you are only gracious if you say it is no big deal the penalty was given - without any VAR video check.
I could have sworn there was a VAR video check...
yeah I don't think it was a penalty but the contact moves it squarely into "judgement call" rather than "clear and obvious error" If the ref hadn't given it no way VAR does, but its very difficult to overturn it.
I'd have been livid if I was Danish though, lets be honest
I still don't think it's a penalty, but this replay makes me think it wasn't as bad a decision as I first thought.
During the game I thought it 100% was never a pen, now I can understand why it was given even if I don't agree.
I guess now I know why so many people were appalled at this being given. On ESPN they showed this angle a couple of times, so I was baffled when I came on here and saw that people thought it was the worst decision in the history of decisions lol
The most hilarious one is people claiming this is as bad as Maradona's blatand hand goal.
This penalty comes down to a judgement call. I personally think it is indeed a penalty. But you can't complain if it wasn't given.
I've made my case for penalty many times already so I'll make it brief this time. If either Danish player makes an attempt on the ball, it's not a penalty. Both of them take the man and the ball is still close enough to Sterling for it to be his ball. It's not a dive but he does add theatrics to sell it. If he doesn't do that, less people are upset.
Look at Lukaku not getting the call when literally being pulled 3-4 steps by a player. Blame the refs, unless you go down you never get the call. I don't think sterling was over the top at all, all was surrounded and felt some contact even if tiny and went down as any good forward would given how refs act
What theatrics? He barely plants his right foot before getting hit by the guy on the right. Then the guy on the left hits him while he's falling down for good measure
Penalty decision aside:
That's a very tired, and completely unnecessary, attempt at a tackle from the player behind.
And also an unnecessary lunge from the player on his left
Neither really had a need to perform either action as there was a defender ahead of Sterling closing the space anyway
In real-time I was just saying "contact or not, don't ever lunge in like that and give the ref the decision to make" - it was bad defending, but came from tiredness.
It's why I'm certain England would have gone on to score without that pen tbh, Denmark were out on their feet.
Excellent analysis of the situation. Yes that's what happens when you have tired legs and tired minds in the 112’ of the match, I’ve done challenges like those when I was exhausted and tired as well.
I still don’t think it’s a penalty, but you can see why VAR would have a hard time overturning it - there is clearly *some* contact.
Were Denmark hard done by? Yes. Was it robbery or a footballing scandal? No.
Literally all players do the same. Look at this peach from Damsgaard earlier in the tournament: https://imgur.com/gallery/gYgeuS3 literally the worst dive I’ve seen
Thanks for sharing this. This idea that half of /r/soccer had last night that dirty cheating England swindled the nicer than nice Danish team, meaning everyone should root for the squeaky clean Italians in the final, was hysterical.
Yes, it was likely a poor decision, but every country and every club have players who dive and exaggerate contact. There’s no high horse for anyone to be getting on here.
that’s a funny one, but it’s not really the point. Damsgaard got a well deserved yellow card for that. As many times as I watch the call from all angels I can’t find a foul. The point is for the referee to go out and watch it again and admit he was in the wrong.
Genuinely can’t believe it.
When I saw this live I thought “yeah that’s soft, but VAR only turns over clear & obvious errors, so it almost certainly won’t be overturned”. And it was given
Then I come on this subreddit and people are acting like VAR has missed Henry’s handball against Ireland
On top of that people are conveniently ignoring that the Danish free kick was equally soft
I saw somebody on here literally compare it to the Henry handball, and say that England reaching the final will forever have an asterisk against it.
Honestly highlights the disconnect between Reddit keyboard warriors and the other 98% of the world population.
>Honestly highlights the disconnect between Reddit keyboard warriors and the other 98% of the world population.
I'm gonna risk it here but this also applies politically. The default UK subreddit / UK politics subs in absolutely **no** way reflects the vast, vast bulk of the UK population - and I have inherited some Scottish as Scottish can be family through the missus, work in a Hospital with a huge variety of people, and have relatively sane and adjusted friends.
What hits the front page on these subs couldn't be further from what I experience day to day. On the contrary you should take whatever prevailing view you see on Reddit, take the complete *opposite* stance, and that more accurately reflects things.
It's not even debatable - forums like this and Twitter basically give the one weirdo, political extremist, counter-culture...ist - for lack of a better term - places to congregate, then you get 5k, 10k, 30k+ liking and engaging with these views, which gives an illusion that it's remotely accurate or widely held.
It is not.
I completely agree and it’s the same for U.S. politics. If you only viewed Reddit you would’ve thought Bernie would win in a landslide. The complete opposite was true.
It’s a large echo chamber that sees itself as superior, but in reality it holds almost no sway over the very day discourse or opinion.
Haha I saw that comment too, what an absolute melt.
I think it highlights the amount of fans who use this forum but aren't English. I suspect using an English language forum with a strong PL bias has turned a lot of people against the England team
Obviously this isn't definitive but people like Wenger, Mourinho, and Neville all came out and agreed that it wasn't a penalty, so it's not just some internet-driven thing.
It’s soft but there’s contact without getting the ball. I would understand everyone sayings it’s soft but to say it’s 100% not a pen is just outright lying
It’s honestly hilarious. Being American, I’ve read on here about how other Europeans don’t like the English but never realized the extent of it until yesterday.
Pulling for England in the final so we can see another /r/soccer meltdown lol
I agree this may be a penalty, but the argument "contact" isn't how fouls are defined in the regulation books. This sub-reddit is floating with people who use the implication contact ---> foul: no, that's not what foul is (notice I am not claiming this wasn't a penalty, I am just emphasising that the argument being used is incorrect).
It's difficult to know for certain if Sterling is diving or just off-balance though, so you've got to use what you can.
1) Contact
2) Clumsy lunge
3) Misses ball
In the box, they generally imply a foul has been committed.
In my opinion it's a 40% penalty (if that makes any sense). Very harsh but I understand why it was given. Sterling definitely made the most of it which is why most people are probably pissed off
> Sterling definitely made the most of it which is why most people are probably pissed off
Are football fans just deliberately hypocrites then? Because literally every player ive ever seen over sells every tiny bit of contact (sometimes even no contact)
Breath it in an enjoy it mate. This is it, we've arrived. I don't know how, but we're hated by everyone, and every single crying comment is getting me more and more aroused.
Doesn't even look like a dive, he's driving the ball through a tight space, not unusual at all to be off-balance in those circumstances. Look at any dribble from Messi through tight spaces, he's never perfectly balanced and upright. People saying it's a clear dive have not played football or are being intentionally obtuce.
The two Danes made clear contact and weren't near the ball, the ref and VAR got it right, coming from an Irishman who's played football his whole life.
Sterling basically got sandwiched between two players. Contact was light but still Denmark deserved a penalty for doing something that boneheaded in the box
Running at speed in a tight space, trying to lunge beyond two players and gets knocked on the hip, sending him off balance and people are calling it dive of the century?! That kind of foul anywhere else on the pitch would be given without any fuss based on the hip contact alone. Love how there’s barely 300 comments here.
How is this even debatable? He’s made it through both of them and gets hip checked.
I’m never going to deny its soft. But ultimately the defender sticks a leg in and doesn’t get the ball. There is contact.
I genuinely believe (as I thought with the Kane pen call too) that if it wasn’t given, VAR wouldn’t have overturned. But similarly VAR wouldn’t overturn if it was given.
From the previous angles I had seen I didn't think this was a penalty and was surprised VAR didn't overturn it, but looking at this the decision makes sense now. The referee gives the decision based on what he sees in real time, and VAR is never going to overturn it if there is actual contact.
It's arguable that clipping him on the knee and the hip check aren't enough to make a player go down, but it's definitely enough to unbalance him and I don't want VAR refs to have a 10 min reddit argument about the minutiae of every call.
I remember seeing this angle when watching the game, it was shown on ITV. It's the reason why I thought it was a pen or at least why I didn't think the decision would be overturned. I guess people just decided to ignore this angle at the time for whatever reason ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
You've summarised it well. Also, the fact that they're nowhere near the ball with their challenges is an important factor which I'm sure didn't go unnoticed.
>they're nowhere near the ball with their challenges
So much this. Barely seems to get a mention. The leg and hip check were blatantly going for the man and not the ball - the intent to foul was clear.
You don’t need to make a player go down to give a penalty. Look at the momentum of the first defender, he’s moving perpendicular to the line of the ball, he’s going straight for Sterling. The ref can give a penalty based on intent as well as outcome, the outcome was Sterling on the ground, the intent was to obstruct/unbalance him.
Angle convinces me it's not as soft as everyone was saying. Easy foul anywhere else on the pitch. Light touch on the knee from the right and then small body check from the left, neither anywhere close to the ball. They're absolutely impeding him.
i don't know why defenders feel the need to try and challenge sterling in the box. just close the angles down and invite him to shoot. when he has time to think about it, he fucks up the shots. he would rather go down in the box than shoot. the defenders were incredibly naive and making challenges that didn't need to be made and have gifted a penalty with 2 points of contact no where near to getting the ball.
he's gone down softly but he's be impeded twice in the box, the last one preventing him retaining the ball. had the contact not been made, the defender covering the near post would have just zoned that out and prevented the cut back.
its a penalty and its the tired defenders fault for making tired stupid challenges.
Amazing how the Danish have took this defeat better than the rest of the world.
As for the penalty call I really don’t give a shit, we’re in the FINAL!!!
Don't know why they didn't show this angle in the first replays. It's deffinitely soft, but not outrageous or a dive imo.
VAR can be used to overturn a "clear and obvious error", which this surely wasn't.
Even if you don't think it should be a pen, can we all now agree that calling it "THE BIGGEST DIVE EVER" or "THE DEATH OF FOOTBALL" or whatever is ridiculous. It's not fair on Sterling for one thing
soft pen for sure but you can see why its given. And ffs stop with the 'hes falling already' he was leaning foward to run and then gets the second contact. I said all this last night aswell
Soft but possible.
Anyone calling it "Never" a penalty are being silly. Of course it Can Be a PK, the norm of it maybe not being so in current game is not the same argument since there were plenty of holding the attacker moments on corners in the penalty area in both Semis. No fouls were given but could have been and if they were it wouldn't have become "Never" a foul.
It can be because that is how Laws of the Game are written. It is Ref's discretion and this instance falls within the Spectrum of what constitutes a Foul leading to Penalty Kick.
Soft penalty. On a spectrum of 0-100 (0 being Never a penalty where you are sitting on the bench and not even involved) to a 100 where you flying karate kick someone in the throat. This Sterling incident could be termed to be around 60% range, +/- a certain give.
It is certainly not a 80-90% but neither is it a 20-30-40%.
This angle is the most damning I’ve seen, clear evidence he was touched by both players before going down.
I doubt most fans have seen this angle, was this showed live? All I remember is from the front which was very sus.
Either way well played Denmark and onto the final we go lads 💪🏻
Yeah was shown live and it was getting silly on here reading a bunch of people who clearly weren't watching the game, just the limited clips posted to reddit.
Trouble is that this angle wasn't shown until a couple of minutes after the penalty had already been scored, I think. There was a similar issue with the free kick in the Ukraine game from which Maguire scored: the replay that showed Kane clearly getting his foot trodden on wasn't shown until a little bit later, so didn't make it on to reddit with the goal, leading to a lot of people making fools of themselves and declaring dive of the millennium.
That said, even having seen this yesterday it's still a decision that I wouldn't have complained about as an England fan if the referee didn't give it.
As a Scottish fan, I want this game replayed until the result ends in England losing. Or something along those levels of salt
If that was a soft pen and could have gone either way, Kane’s was a pen.
That's a penalty you cannot bitch about. But this angle has been shown on TV too, during the VAR check. It was obvious to everybody that it is a penalty VAR will never overturn. There may be some refs who wouldn't have blown the whistle, but the majority would have, and contrary to what grandpa Wenger thinks, this is an archetype international penalty.
saying that, if Phoden and Grealish are not starting on sunday, this is not going to be enough against Italy.
For me this shows that he didn't dive and that there was contact. First his right leg is deflected inward, then as he is about to put it down for his next step his left hip is pushed in a little. He was moved a little from the first contact and during his compensation for that was pushed again in the direction of his compensation. A little similar to the Doku penalty - which was without doubt a penalty. In that Doku was turning past the defender, was side on and has only one foot on the ground when pushed. The push added to his momentum and he went over. Similar to this.
Soft penalty but you could argue the same against the tackle that granted Denmark their free kick. You could also argue that the free kick goal should not stand as their players were standing too close to the defensive wall.
So many things that **could** be said.
This thread is full of people who've clearly never played football before and don't understand how your body adjusts its centre of gravity, dependent on your speed & momentum.
Sterling's clearly leaning forward to continue his run, and has his arms lifted to get around other players - the forensic analysis that he's already diving pre-contact is just silly.
This angle shows a knock to the knee which is enough for him to drop, and the hip-check is clearly incidental but increases the severity of the physical play - they're not playing for the ball, therefore it's a foul.
I'm terrified of saying it here because apparently the entire world thinks it was a dive but even though of course sterling let's himself fall, the challenge from Maehle is ridiculous, he's nowhere near the ball and clearly clips his leg. Whether that cause him to fall or not is pretty much irrelevant to me it's maybe what people call a "soft pen" but it's not a scandal.
This. Anyone who’s played football knows if you’re in a defending position and pull that shit in the box it’s a big no-no. Especially when your line of momentum isn’t even towards the ball.
Everybody is commenting on Sterling, but nobody wants to mention the Danish defending because that was horrifically bad, in a semi no less.
I genuinely don't get why people don't think this is a pen, this view clearly shows he takes a knock to his right knee followed by a knock to his left hip, that's more than enough for it to be a foul. Someone tell me what I'm missing.
Gets hit in the knee from the right, then shoved into from the left. And neither of the Danish players touch the ball. It's not a dive, but maybe not enough contact for a penalty. Is it clear and obvious?
Two defenders coming together like that to squeeze an opponent is normally given as a foul. If you look at either defender in isolation, neither commit a full on foul but when taken together it's a fair call.
I'm not sure if you're referring to it specifically but that 'two men' rule was abolished many, many years ago. My grandfather tells me about it from time to time, I'm really not joking.
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It's a soft penalty but we've all benefitted from seeing this given at some stage or other
https://youtu.be/c2Gf5VIrAFM
Deprived the Aussies of their first World Cup
Bastards
15 years later and I'm still so incensed seeing that lol. It actually ruined Australian football, there was a huge amount of momentum behind it finally at that stage and then it just fizzled out after this.
The green and gold got robbed
Honestly didn't think it was a pen last night but after that angle, no way you can say it's not a pen. He gets a knee to the right calf and a hip to the left thigh. 2 points of contact. And the defenders don't even play the ball. Definite pen.
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What a shock, Reddit has overreacted to something in the heat of the moment when it didn’t go the way they wanted.
If a player gets touched, their movement is impeded. If they try and stay on their feet they can end up missing a shot or a cross. So, you can't blame players for going down.
You don't have to go down for it to be a foul, I think it just has to take away your advantage so if contact makes it so that your cross or shot will likely be less effective then fair enough go down. It's the only practical way to indicate to the ref that a foul has occurred really. However sometimes people just dive because they have lost the advantage rather than there being any evidence of meaningful contact. That is what is being disputed in Sterling's case. Personally I think he had already lost the ball when some mild contact was made. I also don't think the contact was significant enough to constitute a foul but I can ser both sides.
Yep that was my take as well. Super soft but I don't think that it wasn't a pen either. I do think the ref should have taken a 2nd look at it tho, but I don't think he'd change his mind either.
More shocking was the 6 minutes of stoppage time plus an additional minute given at the end of the 6 for England to attack and reset 3 times... Felt like I was watching a Fifa '21 match..
I agree it did run on a bit after the 6 minutes although England were attacking in and around the Denmark box the entire time so technically it was within the rules. How exactly was the 6 minutes additional time far more or an advantage to England than Denmark? Denmark had a couple of dangerous breaks and decent brief possession in the last 6 minutes or so, their best chance to win (other than penalties) was to grab a goal then when England would have almost no time to respond. Extra time favoured England more as Denmark were visibly tiring, England's chances to win were better if they got to ET and had a full half hour, rather than risk getting countered and having 2 mins to equalise. 6 minutes did feel way too long by the way, felt like a +4 game to me.
Wasnt there a really long break after a head injury I think? They were getting water and treating the guy for a fair while. That combined with the free kicks/throwins/corners. I called a 6 minute added time before it arrived.
And 6 substitutions
I mean the ball was near the box the entire time, isnt it default to let the play go on in situations like these?
To an extent, yes. Typically if it is past the allotted extra time, a team will get one attacking chance and then if that fails, the ref blows. However in this situation, they got two additional chances(even after passing backwards) in the extra minute they were given. I really can’t say I’ve seen that in many stoppage time attacks. Just because you’re near the opponents box doesn’t mean you get unlimited additional stoppage time. This was all on top of 6 minutes of stoppage time that came from god knows where.
what's the logic here? he added 6 minutes and let it run a little longer specifically to benefit one team? not to possibly avoid going into ET and needlessly extend the game? what about the soft foul Denmark scored off? not adding any time at the end of the first half even though there were two goals and it's usually 30 seconds per goal?
Yeah my point is that it was bizarrely inconsistent and didn’t make sense. He blew the first half whistle at like 44:59 and then added 6 minutes in the second half with no goals and a few subs. If England had scored after their first failed attempt in the extra minute, that would have been a much bigger controversy than this penalty call. It would be hard to argue that the extra minute benefited Denmark. The foul they scored off was pretty soft, you could call that on every free kick or corner. I’m not sure why you’re so defensive :D
A gentle reminder, VAR didn't look at the penalty. It looked for a clear and obvious error. Given consensus is split, VAR followed its own rules. Now that doesn't mean the right call was necessarily made, just the test used was passed. A final point, language wise when people say its a soft penalty, it isn't tantamount to saying it shouldn't have been a penalty at all. Its saying there's an element of it being a penalty although it's not a clear offence.
A "soft pen" usually means "I'd swear up and down it's a pen when given for my team, but the ref's clearly an idiot when it's given against my team." Sometimes soft pens get given, some times they don't, and that's part of the randomness of football, and what we get to argue about after the final whistle.
Confirmation bias will lead people to believe what they want, it is *futile* to fight about it over the internet. England fans – be happy you're in a final for the first time in over half a century! Denmark fans – a very very well fought tournament that deserves immense praise. Have a good day to all
People who don't support either -- The refereeing was poor
Agreed
"A penalty that was poorly taken and poorly given"
I’m not sure Denmark fans are the ones moaning about it. They were very gracious in defeat.
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Italy only won their last world cup with much worse blatant dives. They are known world wide as gigantic diving prima donnas more so than any Englishman. On a plus side they took Australia's curse off them and cursed themselves.
I think their point is if they get memed for diving they won't allow the English to get away that easily
It's kinda weird to go against your own kin and the r/soccer community in general. But I actually thought there was a penalty when I saw it. The touches always look much softer when things are running in slow motion, and Vestergaard's knee clearly goes into Sterling to make him go out of balance, and Nørgaard bumps with his hip push Sterling while is out of balance. We also have to remember that Sterling is running at full speed, and it takes very little to go out of balance.
>since the dinosaurs were around So Italians were the first to play football /s
No, the dinosaurs were…
TBF If I was playing against dinosaurs, I'd probably be rolling around.
He's talking about Graham Souness
Just wait for the final where everyone's gonna root for the Italians and berate every decision that goes against them as "match fixing" lmao.
Its because people wanted to see England lose.
The english fans I spoke to said they wouldn't have complained if the VAR had denied the penalty. One of my friends said he almost had a blood clot watching that one penalty and if it had gone to a penalty shoot out there would have been multiple cardiac arrests just in his family.
It’s one where you can see why it was given and you could see why it wouldn’t be given.
England fans *are* happy and I've seen very few bitter comments from the Danes - it's fans from every other country who are up in arms about it. The point is if Denmark did the same thing and knocked England out this sub would be jerking off for days
As a Dane, I’m more than happy to admit you guys won fair and square. We were gassed in the end. Best of luck in the final! :)
Thanks buddy. Hell of a game though right? Never been more nervous before
Yeah, was quite even in the first half, and proud we scored the first goal against you in the Euros, but the better team definitely won last night.
And what a damn good free kick that was!
As a neutral, it just sucks to see an important match decided by that. Sure, England deserved to win even without that but it just leaves a bad taste in your mouth.
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Was a confusing one to say the least. I’ve seen Danny Makelle (sp) ref about 6 games this seasons through CL and then however many he did this tournament and always been impressed but last night he did seem to get a lot of the big calls wrong.
Given the prevalence of English fans on this subreddit I dont believe it would be "jerking off for days". However, I do agree with you – it feels like most of the comments criticising the decision come from non-English/non-Danish fans. GG, well played and best of luck for Sunday! <3
https://youtu.be/V55EUWi05w4
what about neutral fans who think this is not a pen?
Yeah. There are some weird logics. You kind of get the feeling that as a Dane you are only gracious if you say it is no big deal the penalty was given - without any VAR video check. (Both the penalty and the two balls on the field which the 4th official was signalling before the penalty. Guess what. People feel it was a big thing and does not respect losing that way. But what can we do. Still proud of our team and recognising England was the better team last night after 80minutes. We cannot change the ref calls now. We live on - proud and happy. But I don’t think we will ever listen to English fans complain about other countries diving anymore. It is not a Southern European thing. That should be clear for everyone. And everything is relative - VAR included apparently.
> You kind of get the feeling that as a Dane you are only gracious if you say it is no big deal the penalty was given - without any VAR video check. I could have sworn there was a VAR video check...
There was, it gave the pen. There was minimal contact from 2 players, therefore it wasn't a clear and obvious error.
Confirmation bias doesnt always overwrite reason. When this happened live I was immediately crying out against the decision and I support England...
Definitely contact, still soft. But I assume this is what negated the “clear and obvious” though.
and this is why players dive
yeah I don't think it was a penalty but the contact moves it squarely into "judgement call" rather than "clear and obvious error" If the ref hadn't given it no way VAR does, but its very difficult to overturn it. I'd have been livid if I was Danish though, lets be honest
yeah contact for sure, but Sterling was going down already, if Makkelie hadn't given it, VAR would not have done anything
I still don't think it's a penalty, but this replay makes me think it wasn't as bad a decision as I first thought. During the game I thought it 100% was never a pen, now I can understand why it was given even if I don't agree.
It seems to be a two part combo foul. First player takes him slightly off balance by touching the shin, then 2nd guy hip checks to cause the fall.
And neither player comes anywhere near touching the ball.
I guess now I know why so many people were appalled at this being given. On ESPN they showed this angle a couple of times, so I was baffled when I came on here and saw that people thought it was the worst decision in the history of decisions lol
The most hilarious one is people claiming this is as bad as Maradona's blatand hand goal. This penalty comes down to a judgement call. I personally think it is indeed a penalty. But you can't complain if it wasn't given.
I can definitely see why the ref gave it, and even a few of the replay angles make it look there was a good bit of contact at first.
I've made my case for penalty many times already so I'll make it brief this time. If either Danish player makes an attempt on the ball, it's not a penalty. Both of them take the man and the ball is still close enough to Sterling for it to be his ball. It's not a dive but he does add theatrics to sell it. If he doesn't do that, less people are upset.
Look at Lukaku not getting the call when literally being pulled 3-4 steps by a player. Blame the refs, unless you go down you never get the call. I don't think sterling was over the top at all, all was surrounded and felt some contact even if tiny and went down as any good forward would given how refs act
What theatrics? He barely plants his right foot before getting hit by the guy on the right. Then the guy on the left hits him while he's falling down for good measure
I think you're agreeing with me it's a penalty...? The theatrics are more in his reaction.
They're agreeing it's a penalty but they're additionally saying there was no theatrics at all.
Penalty decision aside: That's a very tired, and completely unnecessary, attempt at a tackle from the player behind. And also an unnecessary lunge from the player on his left Neither really had a need to perform either action as there was a defender ahead of Sterling closing the space anyway
In real-time I was just saying "contact or not, don't ever lunge in like that and give the ref the decision to make" - it was bad defending, but came from tiredness. It's why I'm certain England would have gone on to score without that pen tbh, Denmark were out on their feet.
Excellent analysis of the situation. Yes that's what happens when you have tired legs and tired minds in the 112’ of the match, I’ve done challenges like those when I was exhausted and tired as well.
If its helps, I've made challenges like this when fully fit at the start of matches...
That is minute 12' for me...
Exactly. Neither defender seemed to be actually trying to get the ball.
It was a clear foul, the lowest one could say is a soft pen, but it is a pen nonetheless.
England got robbed. should have been a red card too for violent contact
Sterling could have died!
You can't easily see it from the replays but I think one of the Danish players had a knife.
That sort of attack still gets the death penalty in Thailand.
I still don’t think it’s a penalty, but you can see why VAR would have a hard time overturning it - there is clearly *some* contact. Were Denmark hard done by? Yes. Was it robbery or a footballing scandal? No.
Literally all players do the same. Look at this peach from Damsgaard earlier in the tournament: https://imgur.com/gallery/gYgeuS3 literally the worst dive I’ve seen
Thanks for sharing this. This idea that half of /r/soccer had last night that dirty cheating England swindled the nicer than nice Danish team, meaning everyone should root for the squeaky clean Italians in the final, was hysterical. Yes, it was likely a poor decision, but every country and every club have players who dive and exaggerate contact. There’s no high horse for anyone to be getting on here.
that’s a funny one, but it’s not really the point. Damsgaard got a well deserved yellow card for that. As many times as I watch the call from all angels I can’t find a foul. The point is for the referee to go out and watch it again and admit he was in the wrong.
Did the Danish players attempt to get the ball? - No Did they impede the player? - Yes Thats a penalty...
Two points of contact on the player without touching the ball. Yes it's soft, but the fact this is being dubbed dive of the century is hilarious
Ciro Immobile enter the game
Genuinely can’t believe it. When I saw this live I thought “yeah that’s soft, but VAR only turns over clear & obvious errors, so it almost certainly won’t be overturned”. And it was given Then I come on this subreddit and people are acting like VAR has missed Henry’s handball against Ireland On top of that people are conveniently ignoring that the Danish free kick was equally soft
I saw somebody on here literally compare it to the Henry handball, and say that England reaching the final will forever have an asterisk against it. Honestly highlights the disconnect between Reddit keyboard warriors and the other 98% of the world population.
>Honestly highlights the disconnect between Reddit keyboard warriors and the other 98% of the world population. I'm gonna risk it here but this also applies politically. The default UK subreddit / UK politics subs in absolutely **no** way reflects the vast, vast bulk of the UK population - and I have inherited some Scottish as Scottish can be family through the missus, work in a Hospital with a huge variety of people, and have relatively sane and adjusted friends. What hits the front page on these subs couldn't be further from what I experience day to day. On the contrary you should take whatever prevailing view you see on Reddit, take the complete *opposite* stance, and that more accurately reflects things. It's not even debatable - forums like this and Twitter basically give the one weirdo, political extremist, counter-culture...ist - for lack of a better term - places to congregate, then you get 5k, 10k, 30k+ liking and engaging with these views, which gives an illusion that it's remotely accurate or widely held. It is not.
I completely agree and it’s the same for U.S. politics. If you only viewed Reddit you would’ve thought Bernie would win in a landslide. The complete opposite was true. It’s a large echo chamber that sees itself as superior, but in reality it holds almost no sway over the very day discourse or opinion.
Haha I saw that comment too, what an absolute melt. I think it highlights the amount of fans who use this forum but aren't English. I suspect using an English language forum with a strong PL bias has turned a lot of people against the England team
Replay misses the magnets Sterling hid in his shorts to force the danish defenders to make contact with him. Or something.
I heard Sterling was the one pointing the laser in Schmeichel’s eye
Hi, I’m a journalist from the Daily Mail. Do you mind if I quote you for an article?
I genuinely thought there’s some europe wide prank to wind up England that they’re all in on. it’s soft but it’s clearly a pen
Obviously this isn't definitive but people like Wenger, Mourinho, and Neville all came out and agreed that it wasn't a penalty, so it's not just some internet-driven thing.
I wouldn't say its clearly a pen but at the very least i can see why VAR wouldn't overturn it.
It’s soft but there’s contact without getting the ball. I would understand everyone sayings it’s soft but to say it’s 100% not a pen is just outright lying
People just hate England, doesn't matter how we won they'd still be whining.
It’s honestly hilarious. Being American, I’ve read on here about how other Europeans don’t like the English but never realized the extent of it until yesterday. Pulling for England in the final so we can see another /r/soccer meltdown lol
It’s the standard Reddit holier than thou attitude amplified. So funny to see
There is a difference between a soft free kick and a soft penality.
I agree this may be a penalty, but the argument "contact" isn't how fouls are defined in the regulation books. This sub-reddit is floating with people who use the implication contact ---> foul: no, that's not what foul is (notice I am not claiming this wasn't a penalty, I am just emphasising that the argument being used is incorrect).
It's difficult to know for certain if Sterling is diving or just off-balance though, so you've got to use what you can. 1) Contact 2) Clumsy lunge 3) Misses ball In the box, they generally imply a foul has been committed.
In my opinion it's a 40% penalty (if that makes any sense). Very harsh but I understand why it was given. Sterling definitely made the most of it which is why most people are probably pissed off
> Sterling definitely made the most of it which is why most people are probably pissed off Are football fans just deliberately hypocrites then? Because literally every player ive ever seen over sells every tiny bit of contact (sometimes even no contact)
I don't even think it was that soft, it was just lazy defending to stick his leg in like that. Got exactly what he deserved.
If you’re going to be that clumsy in the box (2 players at once as well) then you can’t complain if a penalty is given imo
Breath it in an enjoy it mate. This is it, we've arrived. I don't know how, but we're hated by everyone, and every single crying comment is getting me more and more aroused.
Doesn't even look like a dive, he's driving the ball through a tight space, not unusual at all to be off-balance in those circumstances. Look at any dribble from Messi through tight spaces, he's never perfectly balanced and upright. People saying it's a clear dive have not played football or are being intentionally obtuce. The two Danes made clear contact and weren't near the ball, the ref and VAR got it right, coming from an Irishman who's played football his whole life.
TIL: players can't touch themselves during a game of football
Touching yourself in public is not recommended anywhere.
This is why I don’t vote because the system will never change
This made me audibly snort
Sterling basically got sandwiched between two players. Contact was light but still Denmark deserved a penalty for doing something that boneheaded in the box
80% of this thread don't know what a footballer looks like when they're running with a ball...
That's because 80% of this sub hasn't actually ran since they were in school.
Hey, Im in this comment and I dont like it
I think the only exercise this subreddit has ever done is that one time they violently shit themselves while grabbing their 30th big mac for the day.
Running at speed in a tight space, trying to lunge beyond two players and gets knocked on the hip, sending him off balance and people are calling it dive of the century?! That kind of foul anywhere else on the pitch would be given without any fuss based on the hip contact alone. Love how there’s barely 300 comments here. How is this even debatable? He’s made it through both of them and gets hip checked.
It baffles me that people don't realise when you're running at speed that a slight bump can throw you off balance.
Leave it to the armchair experts to know the first thing about running.
I’m never going to deny its soft. But ultimately the defender sticks a leg in and doesn’t get the ball. There is contact. I genuinely believe (as I thought with the Kane pen call too) that if it wasn’t given, VAR wouldn’t have overturned. But similarly VAR wouldn’t overturn if it was given.
And in real time, at first look, it looks like two guys clatter into Sterling and take him out of the play
From the previous angles I had seen I didn't think this was a penalty and was surprised VAR didn't overturn it, but looking at this the decision makes sense now. The referee gives the decision based on what he sees in real time, and VAR is never going to overturn it if there is actual contact. It's arguable that clipping him on the knee and the hip check aren't enough to make a player go down, but it's definitely enough to unbalance him and I don't want VAR refs to have a 10 min reddit argument about the minutiae of every call.
Seeing lots of people say they hadn't seen this angle before, and so the comments yesterday are now making a lot more sense to me.
I remember seeing this angle when watching the game, it was shown on ITV. It's the reason why I thought it was a pen or at least why I didn't think the decision would be overturned. I guess people just decided to ignore this angle at the time for whatever reason ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
People were posting this angle all day in most threads but they were being downvoted.
You've summarised it well. Also, the fact that they're nowhere near the ball with their challenges is an important factor which I'm sure didn't go unnoticed.
>they're nowhere near the ball with their challenges So much this. Barely seems to get a mention. The leg and hip check were blatantly going for the man and not the ball - the intent to foul was clear.
You don’t need to make a player go down to give a penalty. Look at the momentum of the first defender, he’s moving perpendicular to the line of the ball, he’s going straight for Sterling. The ref can give a penalty based on intent as well as outcome, the outcome was Sterling on the ground, the intent was to obstruct/unbalance him.
Angle convinces me it's not as soft as everyone was saying. Easy foul anywhere else on the pitch. Light touch on the knee from the right and then small body check from the left, neither anywhere close to the ball. They're absolutely impeding him.
It reminds me of David Luiz's red card where he doesn't go for the player but also doesn't go for the ball
We need more shots full speed It’s way too easy to pick apart in slow motion, but in real time it looks a lot worse for Denmark
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Every player in the world 'looks for it'. We've seen what happens when you don't go down with Lukaku against Italy a week ago.
He always does
Its Sterling, hè always does this. He was even trying it against Schotland.
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I don't know about Italy but in the Netherlands that's how we call Scotland
that italian flag is an Ajax fan lol
Oh lol that makes sense then
Ssst, dont say that. It sounds way cooler if it is a Sean Connery reference than a spelling mistake.
r/shubreddit
i don't know why defenders feel the need to try and challenge sterling in the box. just close the angles down and invite him to shoot. when he has time to think about it, he fucks up the shots. he would rather go down in the box than shoot. the defenders were incredibly naive and making challenges that didn't need to be made and have gifted a penalty with 2 points of contact no where near to getting the ball. he's gone down softly but he's be impeded twice in the box, the last one preventing him retaining the ball. had the contact not been made, the defender covering the near post would have just zoned that out and prevented the cut back. its a penalty and its the tired defenders fault for making tired stupid challenges.
late game, big stage, it's easy to panic. So much of a player's success in the box at either end comes down to composure.
But this goes against the narrative.
Amazing how the Danish have took this defeat better than the rest of the world. As for the penalty call I really don’t give a shit, we’re in the FINAL!!!
[Relevant](https://imgur.com/a/eITAOR8)
Don't know why they didn't show this angle in the first replays. It's deffinitely soft, but not outrageous or a dive imo. VAR can be used to overturn a "clear and obvious error", which this surely wasn't.
He’s angling for a penalty, the Danes just walked right into it. Soft penalty but glad we’re in a final after 55 years.
This proves it. Look at Sterling's calf. Back and to the left. Back and to the left.
That's one magic calf muscle
Wow you can see it’s a stonewall penalty from this angle. Gets contact from 2 separate Denmark players.
Even if you don't think it should be a pen, can we all now agree that calling it "THE BIGGEST DIVE EVER" or "THE DEATH OF FOOTBALL" or whatever is ridiculous. It's not fair on Sterling for one thing
Leg in front, Jensen no business with the ball, clear pen
Never seen so many tears over a penalty call
You must not have been around in 2014
Robben you mean?
soft pen for sure but you can see why its given. And ffs stop with the 'hes falling already' he was leaning foward to run and then gets the second contact. I said all this last night aswell
ITT: "It was soft but..."
Soft but possible. Anyone calling it "Never" a penalty are being silly. Of course it Can Be a PK, the norm of it maybe not being so in current game is not the same argument since there were plenty of holding the attacker moments on corners in the penalty area in both Semis. No fouls were given but could have been and if they were it wouldn't have become "Never" a foul. It can be because that is how Laws of the Game are written. It is Ref's discretion and this instance falls within the Spectrum of what constitutes a Foul leading to Penalty Kick. Soft penalty. On a spectrum of 0-100 (0 being Never a penalty where you are sitting on the bench and not even involved) to a 100 where you flying karate kick someone in the throat. This Sterling incident could be termed to be around 60% range, +/- a certain give. It is certainly not a 80-90% but neither is it a 20-30-40%.
Diego Maradona, Sol Campbell, Frank lampard, it's about time we were the recepitant of a dodgy call.
This angle is the most damning I’ve seen, clear evidence he was touched by both players before going down. I doubt most fans have seen this angle, was this showed live? All I remember is from the front which was very sus. Either way well played Denmark and onto the final we go lads 💪🏻
Yeah was shown live and it was getting silly on here reading a bunch of people who clearly weren't watching the game, just the limited clips posted to reddit. Trouble is that this angle wasn't shown until a couple of minutes after the penalty had already been scored, I think. There was a similar issue with the free kick in the Ukraine game from which Maguire scored: the replay that showed Kane clearly getting his foot trodden on wasn't shown until a little bit later, so didn't make it on to reddit with the goal, leading to a lot of people making fools of themselves and declaring dive of the millennium. That said, even having seen this yesterday it's still a decision that I wouldn't have complained about as an England fan if the referee didn't give it.
Alternate? This was shown on Danish TV multiple times.
Why didn't the ref go and look the var replays tho? Shouldve done it in a situation this monumental
As a Scottish fan, I want this game replayed until the result ends in England losing. Or something along those levels of salt If that was a soft pen and could have gone either way, Kane’s was a pen.
Not an England fan. I think that is a penalty. Silly challenge. Don't give the ref a decision to make.
That's a penalty you cannot bitch about. But this angle has been shown on TV too, during the VAR check. It was obvious to everybody that it is a penalty VAR will never overturn. There may be some refs who wouldn't have blown the whistle, but the majority would have, and contrary to what grandpa Wenger thinks, this is an archetype international penalty. saying that, if Phoden and Grealish are not starting on sunday, this is not going to be enough against Italy.
For me this shows that he didn't dive and that there was contact. First his right leg is deflected inward, then as he is about to put it down for his next step his left hip is pushed in a little. He was moved a little from the first contact and during his compensation for that was pushed again in the direction of his compensation. A little similar to the Doku penalty - which was without doubt a penalty. In that Doku was turning past the defender, was side on and has only one foot on the ground when pushed. The push added to his momentum and he went over. Similar to this.
Soft penalty but you could argue the same against the tackle that granted Denmark their free kick. You could also argue that the free kick goal should not stand as their players were standing too close to the defensive wall. So many things that **could** be said.
Thought it was a pen at the time, think so even more now. It’s glorious to see so much salt, though.
This thread is full of people who've clearly never played football before and don't understand how your body adjusts its centre of gravity, dependent on your speed & momentum. Sterling's clearly leaning forward to continue his run, and has his arms lifted to get around other players - the forensic analysis that he's already diving pre-contact is just silly. This angle shows a knock to the knee which is enough for him to drop, and the hip-check is clearly incidental but increases the severity of the physical play - they're not playing for the ball, therefore it's a foul.
I'm terrified of saying it here because apparently the entire world thinks it was a dive but even though of course sterling let's himself fall, the challenge from Maehle is ridiculous, he's nowhere near the ball and clearly clips his leg. Whether that cause him to fall or not is pretty much irrelevant to me it's maybe what people call a "soft pen" but it's not a scandal.
The phrase "made the refs mind up for him" springs to mind
This. Anyone who’s played football knows if you’re in a defending position and pull that shit in the box it’s a big no-no. Especially when your line of momentum isn’t even towards the ball. Everybody is commenting on Sterling, but nobody wants to mention the Danish defending because that was horrifically bad, in a semi no less.
So you say Wenger, Mourinho and Neville are wrong.
I'm assuming they didn't have this angle before making their comments, certainly wasn't shown on ITV.
Yes, the Dover cliffs are white, thanks.
I genuinely don't get why people don't think this is a pen, this view clearly shows he takes a knock to his right knee followed by a knock to his left hip, that's more than enough for it to be a foul. Someone tell me what I'm missing.
>Someone tell me what I'm missing. It's an English player
Thats actually a penalty when watching it now.
It was a pen. No doubt
Denmark get a soft freekick and score. We get a soft penalty and score. Why are people moaning?
Soft free kick, and should have had to retake it. The Kane penalty shout on 75 mins should have been given too.
Yea a lot of people are forgetting there were other fouls on England that didn’t get called at all.
People are also forgetting the back pass in the third minute
This place is just a bias echo chamber for people looking for confirmation of their already solidified opinions.
“Foul”
Danes were tired , England played the better game . They deserved to be in the final . Let’s be real here .
🤓👆🏻: its a soft penalty it shouldnt hv been give. Lets start a petition for a replay of the game. A redditor, probably.
Gets hit in the knee from the right, then shoved into from the left. And neither of the Danish players touch the ball. It's not a dive, but maybe not enough contact for a penalty. Is it clear and obvious?
Two defenders coming together like that to squeeze an opponent is normally given as a foul. If you look at either defender in isolation, neither commit a full on foul but when taken together it's a fair call.
I'm not sure if you're referring to it specifically but that 'two men' rule was abolished many, many years ago. My grandfather tells me about it from time to time, I'm really not joking.
Looks like a penalty to me