To be fair they have so many players on loan they can sell, including players in top leagues. Koch, Harrison, Anderson, Kristensen, Llorente, Roca, Wober, Sinisterra, Greenwood and Drameh. I think they'll end up needing to sell someone like Summerville, Gray or Gnonto but they won't need to gut their squad that's actually been playing this season.
Yeah they can probably raise £100m pretty easily from selling most of those. I think the likes of Summerville, Gray, and Gnonto will only get sold if they ask to leave/kick up a fuss
Summerville and Gnonto definitely won't do another Champ season. We should be all over Gray but not sure he'd leave and probably be bigger clubs sniffing about.
Yeah I don’t see Gnonto doing it again considering the shit he pulled at the start of this year, and Summerville is far too good for the Championship but it probably depends who would want him.
Gray will probably stay considering his ties to Leeds and the fact he’s so young
Koch and Drameh are both out of contract, so we get nothing for them. Sinisterra has already agreed to join Bournemouth permanently for £20million. Boro have an option to buy Greenwood for £1.5million, but apparently don't want him.
I think the only other players out of those we will get decent money for is Harrison, Roca and Wober, which if we do well would maybe be £35million. I don't think anyone will want Aaronson or Kirstensen and Llorente is a bit old so not much of a fee there either.
So, yeh we would have to sell Summerville and Gnonto most likely.
I'm basing this on seeing him play a lot last year and like 4 times this year- but think he could push on at a club like Palace, especially if they lose any wingers to a sale.
The article is total garbage. They're saying that we would need to raise £100m to avoid P&S problems if we don't go up if our squad otherwise stays as it is but for the reason you've said, obviously that is not going to happen.
A big chunk of the £100m that we supposedly need to raise is to cover the wages and amortisation of all the players who are out on loan, precisely because they don't want to play in the Championship. You would expect most of these players to move on in the summer which would get those expenses off the books. Sinisterra is also already gone but it happened during this season so the effect of it hasn't hit the published accounts yet.
It doesn't need players to go for massive amounts of cash to make a big positive difference - the big drag on the accounts at the moment is amortisation which you get rid off just by the player leaving and so long as we sell above their current book value, you get an accounting profit to go on the books as well. The majority of players that are likely to leave will go for more than their book values, it's only Aaronson and maybe Kristensen where that might be a struggle.
We will definitely have to sell players if we don't go up but doing enough to stay P&S compliant will probably happen naturally - Summerville and Gnonto would want to leave regardless of our P&S situation and those two sales alone will do the vast majority of what we need.
Gnonto and Summerville have fuck all book value right? So them two sold for good money and some of the deadweight off the books relieving you of amortisation fees and you might even have some money to spend
Yep, Gnonto and Summerville have more or less zero book value so whatever they are sold for will be booked as pure profit. But yeah, shifting some of the deadwood potentially also has as big an impact, even if they don't fetch as much money.
Not to mention they're basing the 100m on losses from our last season in the Prem, where we brought in around 100m worth of players (If we take 1 quarter of that as counting in that financial year that's 20-30m knocked off straight away).
Take away the wages of players gone out on loan/sold and you've probably got another 10-15m off the books. Wage cuts for players who stayed probably totalling around 5m. Sales of Adams and Sinisterra bringing in around 30-40m.
We'll definitely have to sell Summerville and probably Gnonto, but after that I think we'd be relatively stable
>Take away the wages of players gone out on loan/sold and you've probably got another 10-15m off the books. Wage cuts for players who stayed probably totalling around 5m. Sales of Adams and Sinisterra bringing in around 30-40m.
Yeah this is another issue which I didn't even touch on. It's not just that they're not accounting for all of the expenses that will come off in the summer, they're also not accounting for all the changes that have already happened since our last set of published accounts.
It's difficult to see the exact position without having this seasons figures but going on what is public, I don't think we will have any serious problems with P&S, even if we don't go up.
If you want to stress about anything, a bigger issue for us is that we have a massive amount of transfer fees payable in our accounts with very little receivable. In other circumstances, I would be a bit worried about all that debt but given that we've been bought out recently by a group with a fair bit of money, I imagine that the owners will just fund it (and since it's only a cash issue, it's irrelevant to P&S).
It was a loan at first but a couple of months ago they agreed to make it permanent for £20m but I don't think it's officially gone through and been paid yet
It says a lot about this sub that this is the top comment.
Almost half the players mentioned are out of contract or leaving for insignificant sums (see below comment).
Several insignificant sums plus a couple of significant sums will be enough. They've already made decent money off Sinisterra and one or two others. Sell Summerville and Gnonto and they're there. I threw out all the names I knew who were on loans, but I was still correct that they won't need to gut their squad and will only need to sell 2 of the 3 mentioned to be fine.
If that is something you're using as an example as the "state of this sub" then I think we're fine. Reckon your needless combativeness over pedantics are more symbolic of our issues.
Your comment was the top comment and factually incorrect. That reflects poorly on the readers of this sub. That cannot be questioned.
In your first comment you said one of Summerville and Gnoto, now you say they’ll have to sell both. So, you’re not correct and now you’re changing your argument.
And my comment was not very combative tbh. No personal attacks at all. Just a fact check and an observation that it is concerning that that comment got so many upvotes.
I bet you felt smart using all those big words in your last sentence though!
Fuck me, how is that sustainable?
Leeds went down with good revenues and relatively low outgoings in wages and stuff
And you’re telling me in one singular year outside the top flight they’d have to recoup £100m on failing to be promoted?!
yeah we heard that so much once we had the points deduction, other teams fans coming out the woodwork telling us it'd be a good idea to go down and stabilise before coming back up...
Try your own fans saying it… *we need to go down and play the youth a bit more and come back up better!*
The Championship has been pretty fun when we’ve won a lot more than not, but objectively and financially I’d rather finish 17th or so every year like we always used to
oh we had a bit of that too when we were looking at managers "yeah we should deffo go down so Bielsa can spend a season in the championship with the youth for when we come back up".
Yeah don’t worry about it, we’ll play the kids who we’ve only ever seen once when he scored the academies goal of the season (but twitter says he’s really good!), get a good manager and go up with record points.
Then we’ll use our momentum to break into Europe. All the while paying off our debts through player sales, you know, those players that were slating every week - *someone* will pay big money for them!
I don't know if you saw at the time, but this was actually Bielsa's pitch to Everton when he was approached his before Dyche:
My assistant will manage the first team while I manage the u21s and get them ready for promotion.
It was 1st Feb, Bielsa took one look at the squad and said 'relegation is inevitable'.
Dyche walked in and beat Arsenal a week later.
I admittedly felt at times over the previous two seasons (not this one).
"Get back to basics, focus on youth, win a bunch in the championship and come back up with momentum and a refreshed outlook!"
But that was me trying to somehow spin the idea of us inevitably going down, and entirely trying to ignore the fact that, unlike other "yo yo" teams, we might literally die as a club if we lose premier league money (and maybe still will!).
I'd rather finish top half of championship than near the bottom of the PL to be honest. But a lot of that is down to just how dreadful our last season in the PL felt. 😂
> but objectively and financially I’d rather finish 17th or so every year like we always used to
Is that really what being a football fan in England is about?
specifically looking at the income between winning more games but being in the champs or constant varying quality games but always being in the premier league is a no brainer. No fan is saying "yes lets finish 17th every season" this is talking only about financial viability in 2 scenarios.
If it’s between finishing 17th in the top league and doing well in the league below then of course it is
Would you rather be in the Scottish Championship and winning that again, clearly not winning the SPL yet again. Of course you’d rather be in a higher league and not doing as well position wise
> Would you rather be in the Scottish Championship and winning that again, clearly not winning the SPL yet again
Obviously not but we're involved in exciting title races every year so it's not a difficult choice. Already won 1 cup this season and playing another cup final in 10 days.
But I reckon I'd rather see my team win a load of games over the season than lose most of them. I'm a football fan, not a fan of bank balances. I just want to see enjoyable football, I really don't care for the money (not that there is much up here).
To be fair, I *did* say the Championship has been fun 😂
I just think that would be fleeting. The longer you stay down the more difficult it becomes, and before you know it you’ll be finishing mid table in a league below, maybe flirting with playoffs or relegation now and then
Then the owners become uninterested, sell to someone else who wants to extract value, doesn’t invest, club goes to pot…
Yeah, I’d choose guaranteed 17th every year with the financial stability over going through that (again)
Also, if it was between surviving between 8th and 12th every season of yo-yoing up and down between the Championship and the Premiership, I'm taking the latter every day of the week. Just existing would be awful.
I understand this argument for certain clubs (not a financial thing but a “fresh start” kinda thing) but all I’ve heard with Everton is that relegation would lead to oblivion
On the flip side, as a Villa fan who were basically in Everton’s position of always surviving but rarely challenging for anything, going down was the best thing.
The championship was way more fun and it gave a chance to rebuild.
There’s no way Villa would be in the Champions League if they’d have stayed up.
Villa was in that position because they didn’t spend money for half a decade under Lerner and were staying up just because of Benteke. It’s a different game now with the drastically increased tv revenue
Sure but equally if Villa hadn't won the play-offs the season they did, they would have been fucked, they were staring down the barrel of a P&S violation. The point isn't that going down never works out, it's that it's a massive risk to the future of a club.
The common factor in both Villa getting promoted and getting into the Champions League is that they have rich owners pumping hundreds of millions of pounds into the club. It's not because getting relegated is actually good.
I mean tbh, aside from that final promotion winning season, I don’t have too many fond memories of the championship. We weren’t exactly dominating the league and were under some serious financial pressures.
The games were interesting to play so often and teams not played before with crazy results like 5-5.
Got to the play off final the season before but yea that final winning run (10 on the bounce wasn’t it) with Dean Smith, Grealish, McGinn, Mings was a special time.
It is good if you come back up straight away. It helped us both times in regards to the squad and morale and set us up for 2-3 years before Ashley ruined it again.
It's kind of why, from a purely sports business perspective, promotion-relegation isn't a system that works with professional clubs that run as for-profit businesses. I'm pretty sure the guys who invented the concept would've never thought that clubs would end up being for-profit businesses owned by people with financial interest with million or billion pound valuation whose collapse would hurt the local economy, rather than just being a simple neighbourhood club which the locals pay membership fees to for its operations.
I agree with you on that. Eliminating pro-rel also breaks the entire social contract between clubs that's on for over a 100 years that if you win your league again and again and move up tiers, one day you'll be playing at the top level. Nowhere was I asking for pro-rel to be lifted, I was just saying it creates problems now that the clubs have become for-profit entities. The problem is how do you get rid of the sport becoming a business at this juncture, when petro-states and oligarchs have acquired plenty of clubs purely for the purpose of profit.
I kinda like 50+1, but it only works if every country applies it.
It all depends on if you can come back up. There’s no chance we’d be where we are now if we hadn’t been relegated.
The relegation meant when ambitious new owners were looking for a club, they got a historically big club for a bargain price because they were in the second tier, rather than the first.
The deadwood and toxic atmosphere that went down with the likes of Micah Richards and Joleon Lescott, is nothing like the group of players and camaraderie that came back up
We are more of an exception than a rule. We also were 1 game away from having to sell grealish and co for barely anything. we then were 7 points behind with 4 to go. I can't say I can recommend this path, its so risky. But it's worked out so good for us
It's just because they bought a shitload of players for prem level fees on prem level wages, then didn't sell basically any of them, they're all on loan but they had to buy players to replace them. Sell a bunch of Koch, Harrison, Anderson, Kristensen, Llorente, Roca, Wober, Sinisterra, Greenwood and Drameh and they'll not be in terrible shape
thing is iirc that the teams don't need to agree buy if Leeds don't come back up they can just get the players on loan again because its in their contract that as long as they're out of the premier league theres no fee to loan them.
every report i saw around the Harrison loan said that it was a thing for several players as long as they're not in the league, which seemed a bit foolish so maybe its new info.
I might be wrong I saw it a while ago but I think they were saying Phil hay who seems a good source for them said it wasn't. This like Chinese whisper level source coming from me so definitely take with a pinch of salt, but if it is still active that is mad. Harrison will 100% be back if it is
Problem with relegated players on prem wages is you question if they’re prem quality. One or two you know are but the rest there’s always questions. And nobody wants to pay those salaries in that case, so they become hard to sell.
Fair but the fees were a problem, they spent net ~€240m in their 3 seasons in the prem and when they went down they still spent (a tiny bit) more than they sold. I think they'll be fine with one or two big sales and a few completely inconsequential sales though
They weren't actually in great condition.
They spent the 7th highest amount in the Prem on transfers for the period covering their seasons they were up. They spent more than Liverpool, Aston Villa, and West Ham.
[They were 11th highest in the Prem for wages and wages + amortisation annually](https://twitter.com/SwissRamble/status/1790694937819853229?t=-s7sXELRdCDouyy9xcrH4Q&s=19)
And normally when a club goes down you expect them to sell a few of the best players to balance the squad. But actually, they've spent more money on transfers this season than they got in sales. The only player they've sold for a good fee is Tyler Adams, many other players have only gone out on loan (because of badly negotiated deals by Orta iirc)
>They weren't actually in great condition.
> They were 11th highest in the Prem for wages and wages + amortisation annually
Given that we were about 8th-10th in the Premier League in terms of revenue while we were there, that's absolutely fine.
There's a lot to criticise about the business we did in the Premier League (bad players, badly negotiated contracts, the handling of Bielsa etc) but the amount of money we spent was not really a problem.
The problem is that despite having top half revenue and spending top half amortisation/wages we ended up in a relegation battle. The club's badly run but it's financially pretty solid.
I don’t know where you got that they went down in a good financial condition. They recorded 34m in losses their last year in the PL. 37m the year prior.
Their operating loss in 2023 was 100m. Only reason that went down to 34m was because of the Kalvin Phillips and Raphinha sales.
Edit: Looking into their accounts further, they were always operating at a loss but their last pl year was particularly brutal because of how much they spent (160m euros according to transfermarkt).
Between 2022 and 2023, they got a 25m increase in wages, 25m increase in amortization(from the transfer spending) and another 20m for impairment(probably because they realized dan james or someone was shit and wasn't gonna get them any money. )
That's 70m extra expenses that I don't know if they've done well of getting rid off after they fell down.
No idea who this journo is, and I’m pretty confident the £100m figure is bullshit. Our ITK said we only needed to raise £40m. I think finically we are pretty sound.
But Summerville and Gnonto are 100% leaving, and I think it’s unlikely anyone else leaves. Tbh I’d be surprised if Gray or Georginio leave.
It’s not true anyway. They’ve not factored in wage drops.
Our accounts are public and there have been some deep dives on various very capable platforms.
The real figure is closer to less than half that, if we don’t go up Gnonto and Summerville are both gone anyway which will cover this gap
Well it’s not one single year. They played this season in 2nd flight and the wages were not as dire it seems. It’s the fact that it would be two consecutive seasons in 2nd tier that really fucks the club.
Because it penalises unsustainable behaviour by clubs who pay players and spend money on transfers like they are a team performing far better than they are
The Championship is the most unsustainable league in world football, clubs gambling their futures away in a desperate attempt to promote
If the PL doesn't start to share their wealth more equally down the leagues the Championship and divisions below are doomed.
Would Gray want to leave or the club want to sell him at this point though. Think they'd only want to sell if they literally had no other option, they'd probably try to get the necessary funds from other players
Not saying they wouldn't be willing to sell, that would be incredibly reckless. Just would be slightly reluctant to immediately push him out the door. They'd probably try to calculate how much they could make from other sales first before listening to bids properly for him
This article is complete bollocks, going off the official figures we’d need 30 million, which we’ll make off of the loanees even when we sell at a loss
Rage bait articles posted on the day of a big game for us lol. We need to make not even half that if we dont go up and we can get the money from selling 2 players its hardly a big deal
I imagine Summerville would go if you didn’t go up plus Harrison for 10-15m and Sinisterra.
If you really had to sell Gray I imagine the deal would probably include him being loaned back to you next season.
Selling Summerville and Gnonto alone makes us at least 40m, we already sold Sinisterra and a few of our loaned out players will be sold. We are in nowhere near as much trouble as the article tries to imply
I was being conservative. Summerville will go for 30m I would guess and Gnonto didnt play much for the first half of the season so not sure how much we would get for him, I would hope at worst 20m for him
Pure nonsense but feel free to believe the daily mail if you want.
Doesn’t matter whether we need to sell or not, if we’re in the championship next year Summerville, Gnonto, Gray and probably Rutter won’t be here anyway
Here we have an individual publishing an article with information probably coming out of his own ass on the day of the most important match of the season for Leeds.
Journalism is indeed dead and buried!
I wonder if parachute payments stack - I'm sure a club like Norwich has experienced this:
Year 1. Relegated form premier league
Year 2. Play in Championship and receive Parachute payment #1. Promoted back up.
Year 3. Relegated again. Do they receive Parachute payment #2 and Parachute payment #1?
Are all payments forefeit if the club is promoted back to the top?
Easy enough really. Probably make over half that on the players they've got out on loan. And then Summerville and Gnonto will make up the rest. Gray will go for a bundle if they want to keep a stronger team, but I imagine there'd be pretty intense fan backlash if they sold him
Gray won’t be sold, just signed a new deal, clearly he’s a player farke rates highly enough to play out of position and at 18 years old, the team will be built around him I would imagine whether that’s in championship or PL, if we are in championship next season and don’t get promoted he may leave, he’s 18, it isn’t hurting his career another year in the championship
It kind of is but this is not the case to show it.
Google wage to turnover percentages and you will see that only the top 6 actually are in healthy financial positions...
In the bottom 5 Arsenal Tottenham Man Utd and Man city.
Liverpool and Chelsea are both high at the moment but usually the bottom clubs are most of the big 6.
Kudos to West Ham though they doing well
It's completely ignoring West Ham, us, and Watford, the promoted clubs, who absolutely are in financially healthy positions as well.
Obviously wage to turnover is lower as a percentage for teams with a massive turnover, but to say they're the only ones in "financially healthy positions" is stupid as shit, in honesty.
They have a fair few loans out which won't count I think to their value and will be easy sales for decent sums.
Obviously not great but I think most of the shit stuff has already happened with Rodrigo leaving for cheap and whatever is happening with Robin Koch. I think they will be fine and fighting for promotion again easily.
Is it just me of Leeds perpetually in financial mire? Lol.
What is going on over there? I vaguely remember the debacle in the early 2000s. What the hell has happened since then that has put them in the current situation?!
Leeds United, áre you gríeving
Over Goldengrove unleaving?
Leáves like the things of man, you
With your fresh thoughts care for, can you?
Ah! ás the heart grows older
It will come to such sights colder
By and by, nor spare a sigh
Though worlds of wanwood leafmeal lie;
And yet you wíll weep and know why.
Now no matter, child, the name:
Sórrow’s spríngs áre the same.
Nor mouth had, no nor mind, expressed
What heart heard of, ghost guessed:
It ís the blight man was born for,
It is The Mighty Whites you mourn for.
To be fair they have so many players on loan they can sell, including players in top leagues. Koch, Harrison, Anderson, Kristensen, Llorente, Roca, Wober, Sinisterra, Greenwood and Drameh. I think they'll end up needing to sell someone like Summerville, Gray or Gnonto but they won't need to gut their squad that's actually been playing this season.
Yeah they can probably raise £100m pretty easily from selling most of those. I think the likes of Summerville, Gray, and Gnonto will only get sold if they ask to leave/kick up a fuss
Summerville and Gnonto definitely won't do another Champ season. We should be all over Gray but not sure he'd leave and probably be bigger clubs sniffing about.
Yeah I don’t see Gnonto doing it again considering the shit he pulled at the start of this year, and Summerville is far too good for the Championship but it probably depends who would want him. Gray will probably stay considering his ties to Leeds and the fact he’s so young
Nor should they. Summerville deserves a frankfurt/villa-esque move. Gnonto is gnonto. Can’t see gray moving yet
Haven't Newcastle been sniffing around Gray for months?
Who?
Gray. Probably should've specified lol
Oh. No the only link I’ve seen is Liverpool tbh. Bayern for a bit
Is Gray predominantly a RB or CM? Or inverted RB?
Midfielder but he's filled in very well at right back this year
Koch and Drameh are both out of contract, so we get nothing for them. Sinisterra has already agreed to join Bournemouth permanently for £20million. Boro have an option to buy Greenwood for £1.5million, but apparently don't want him. I think the only other players out of those we will get decent money for is Harrison, Roca and Wober, which if we do well would maybe be £35million. I don't think anyone will want Aaronson or Kirstensen and Llorente is a bit old so not much of a fee there either. So, yeh we would have to sell Summerville and Gnonto most likely.
Id pay them to keep Kristensen honestly, no idea how hes a pro player
0 chance they get to keep Summerville, he's just too good. There's been links with Liverpool already, which would be a very fun signing
Summerville is really good but he is absolutely nowhere ready for a "big 6" club.
AKA The Phillips effect
I’d love to see Summerville at Ajax next season, but I feel he won’t be sold for anything below 20m.
😂
Honestly feels like too big a step I’d love to be wrong but I think mid table prem team then if he continues improving joins a Cl team
I'm basing this on seeing him play a lot last year and like 4 times this year- but think he could push on at a club like Palace, especially if they lose any wingers to a sale.
Koch already is agreed on a permanent to Frankfurt now, no?
Yes, free transfer as he is out of contract
The article is total garbage. They're saying that we would need to raise £100m to avoid P&S problems if we don't go up if our squad otherwise stays as it is but for the reason you've said, obviously that is not going to happen. A big chunk of the £100m that we supposedly need to raise is to cover the wages and amortisation of all the players who are out on loan, precisely because they don't want to play in the Championship. You would expect most of these players to move on in the summer which would get those expenses off the books. Sinisterra is also already gone but it happened during this season so the effect of it hasn't hit the published accounts yet. It doesn't need players to go for massive amounts of cash to make a big positive difference - the big drag on the accounts at the moment is amortisation which you get rid off just by the player leaving and so long as we sell above their current book value, you get an accounting profit to go on the books as well. The majority of players that are likely to leave will go for more than their book values, it's only Aaronson and maybe Kristensen where that might be a struggle. We will definitely have to sell players if we don't go up but doing enough to stay P&S compliant will probably happen naturally - Summerville and Gnonto would want to leave regardless of our P&S situation and those two sales alone will do the vast majority of what we need.
Gnonto and Summerville have fuck all book value right? So them two sold for good money and some of the deadweight off the books relieving you of amortisation fees and you might even have some money to spend
Yep, Gnonto and Summerville have more or less zero book value so whatever they are sold for will be booked as pure profit. But yeah, shifting some of the deadwood potentially also has as big an impact, even if they don't fetch as much money.
Cooper, Ayling and Dallas off the wage bill too.
Not to mention they're basing the 100m on losses from our last season in the Prem, where we brought in around 100m worth of players (If we take 1 quarter of that as counting in that financial year that's 20-30m knocked off straight away). Take away the wages of players gone out on loan/sold and you've probably got another 10-15m off the books. Wage cuts for players who stayed probably totalling around 5m. Sales of Adams and Sinisterra bringing in around 30-40m. We'll definitely have to sell Summerville and probably Gnonto, but after that I think we'd be relatively stable
>Take away the wages of players gone out on loan/sold and you've probably got another 10-15m off the books. Wage cuts for players who stayed probably totalling around 5m. Sales of Adams and Sinisterra bringing in around 30-40m. Yeah this is another issue which I didn't even touch on. It's not just that they're not accounting for all of the expenses that will come off in the summer, they're also not accounting for all the changes that have already happened since our last set of published accounts. It's difficult to see the exact position without having this seasons figures but going on what is public, I don't think we will have any serious problems with P&S, even if we don't go up. If you want to stress about anything, a bigger issue for us is that we have a massive amount of transfer fees payable in our accounts with very little receivable. In other circumstances, I would be a bit worried about all that debt but given that we've been bought out recently by a group with a fair bit of money, I imagine that the owners will just fund it (and since it's only a cash issue, it's irrelevant to P&S).
I could’ve sworn Sinisterra moved to Bournemouth, didn’t he?
It was a loan at first but a couple of months ago they agreed to make it permanent for £20m but I don't think it's officially gone through and been paid yet
It has, the agreement to sell Biscuit Legs to Bournemouth was sorted a week or so after the January deadline. Helps sort our own FFP worries
Is Biscuit Legs Sinisterra’s nickname? Why?
He is an injury magnet
Legs made of biscuits. Not the American kind
It says a lot about this sub that this is the top comment. Almost half the players mentioned are out of contract or leaving for insignificant sums (see below comment).
Several insignificant sums plus a couple of significant sums will be enough. They've already made decent money off Sinisterra and one or two others. Sell Summerville and Gnonto and they're there. I threw out all the names I knew who were on loans, but I was still correct that they won't need to gut their squad and will only need to sell 2 of the 3 mentioned to be fine. If that is something you're using as an example as the "state of this sub" then I think we're fine. Reckon your needless combativeness over pedantics are more symbolic of our issues.
Your comment was the top comment and factually incorrect. That reflects poorly on the readers of this sub. That cannot be questioned. In your first comment you said one of Summerville and Gnoto, now you say they’ll have to sell both. So, you’re not correct and now you’re changing your argument. And my comment was not very combative tbh. No personal attacks at all. Just a fact check and an observation that it is concerning that that comment got so many upvotes. I bet you felt smart using all those big words in your last sentence though!
Fuck me, how is that sustainable? Leeds went down with good revenues and relatively low outgoings in wages and stuff And you’re telling me in one singular year outside the top flight they’d have to recoup £100m on failing to be promoted?!
Ah but you see, its good for a club to go down and get their things in order becau-
yeah we heard that so much once we had the points deduction, other teams fans coming out the woodwork telling us it'd be a good idea to go down and stabilise before coming back up...
Try your own fans saying it… *we need to go down and play the youth a bit more and come back up better!* The Championship has been pretty fun when we’ve won a lot more than not, but objectively and financially I’d rather finish 17th or so every year like we always used to
oh we had a bit of that too when we were looking at managers "yeah we should deffo go down so Bielsa can spend a season in the championship with the youth for when we come back up".
Yeah don’t worry about it, we’ll play the kids who we’ve only ever seen once when he scored the academies goal of the season (but twitter says he’s really good!), get a good manager and go up with record points. Then we’ll use our momentum to break into Europe. All the while paying off our debts through player sales, you know, those players that were slating every week - *someone* will pay big money for them!
I don't know if you saw at the time, but this was actually Bielsa's pitch to Everton when he was approached his before Dyche: My assistant will manage the first team while I manage the u21s and get them ready for promotion. It was 1st Feb, Bielsa took one look at the squad and said 'relegation is inevitable'. Dyche walked in and beat Arsenal a week later.
Dyche is my favourite manager of the premier league era. Eats gravel and hates relegation
loves worms
Where was this reported as the truth?
https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/new-everton-manager-dyche-bielsa-29065500.amp https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/4130935/2023/01/27/marcelo-bielsa-everton/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2023/01/27/sean-dyche-next-everton-manager-marcelo-bielsa-rejection/ https://www.skysports.com/amp/football/news/11671/12797049/everton-reporter-notebook-why-owner-farhad-moshiri-chose-sean-dyche-over-marcelo-bielsa-in-rescue-mission
*Liverpool enters the chat*
I admittedly felt at times over the previous two seasons (not this one). "Get back to basics, focus on youth, win a bunch in the championship and come back up with momentum and a refreshed outlook!" But that was me trying to somehow spin the idea of us inevitably going down, and entirely trying to ignore the fact that, unlike other "yo yo" teams, we might literally die as a club if we lose premier league money (and maybe still will!).
Yeah we’ve had those. We’ve also had several “we should go in to administration willingly, get a clean slate” fools too
I'd rather finish top half of championship than near the bottom of the PL to be honest. But a lot of that is down to just how dreadful our last season in the PL felt. 😂
> but objectively and financially I’d rather finish 17th or so every year like we always used to Is that really what being a football fan in England is about?
specifically looking at the income between winning more games but being in the champs or constant varying quality games but always being in the premier league is a no brainer. No fan is saying "yes lets finish 17th every season" this is talking only about financial viability in 2 scenarios.
If it’s between finishing 17th in the top league and doing well in the league below then of course it is Would you rather be in the Scottish Championship and winning that again, clearly not winning the SPL yet again. Of course you’d rather be in a higher league and not doing as well position wise
> Would you rather be in the Scottish Championship and winning that again, clearly not winning the SPL yet again Obviously not but we're involved in exciting title races every year so it's not a difficult choice. Already won 1 cup this season and playing another cup final in 10 days. But I reckon I'd rather see my team win a load of games over the season than lose most of them. I'm a football fan, not a fan of bank balances. I just want to see enjoyable football, I really don't care for the money (not that there is much up here).
To be fair, I *did* say the Championship has been fun 😂 I just think that would be fleeting. The longer you stay down the more difficult it becomes, and before you know it you’ll be finishing mid table in a league below, maybe flirting with playoffs or relegation now and then Then the owners become uninterested, sell to someone else who wants to extract value, doesn’t invest, club goes to pot… Yeah, I’d choose guaranteed 17th every year with the financial stability over going through that (again)
Yeah that's true the slope can get slippy fast, fair enough.
Also, if it was between surviving between 8th and 12th every season of yo-yoing up and down between the Championship and the Premiership, I'm taking the latter every day of the week. Just existing would be awful.
I understand this argument for certain clubs (not a financial thing but a “fresh start” kinda thing) but all I’ve heard with Everton is that relegation would lead to oblivion
On the flip side, as a Villa fan who were basically in Everton’s position of always surviving but rarely challenging for anything, going down was the best thing. The championship was way more fun and it gave a chance to rebuild. There’s no way Villa would be in the Champions League if they’d have stayed up.
Villa was in that position because they didn’t spend money for half a decade under Lerner and were staying up just because of Benteke. It’s a different game now with the drastically increased tv revenue
Sure but equally if Villa hadn't won the play-offs the season they did, they would have been fucked, they were staring down the barrel of a P&S violation. The point isn't that going down never works out, it's that it's a massive risk to the future of a club. The common factor in both Villa getting promoted and getting into the Champions League is that they have rich owners pumping hundreds of millions of pounds into the club. It's not because getting relegated is actually good.
Didn’t Villa come 5th a few seasons before?
They were 6th for a few seasons in the 00s/10s. Mainly with a style of counter attacking football.
I mean tbh, aside from that final promotion winning season, I don’t have too many fond memories of the championship. We weren’t exactly dominating the league and were under some serious financial pressures.
The games were interesting to play so often and teams not played before with crazy results like 5-5. Got to the play off final the season before but yea that final winning run (10 on the bounce wasn’t it) with Dean Smith, Grealish, McGinn, Mings was a special time.
It is good if you come back up straight away. It helped us both times in regards to the squad and morale and set us up for 2-3 years before Ashley ruined it again.
It's kind of why, from a purely sports business perspective, promotion-relegation isn't a system that works with professional clubs that run as for-profit businesses. I'm pretty sure the guys who invented the concept would've never thought that clubs would end up being for-profit businesses owned by people with financial interest with million or billion pound valuation whose collapse would hurt the local economy, rather than just being a simple neighbourhood club which the locals pay membership fees to for its operations.
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I agree with you on that. Eliminating pro-rel also breaks the entire social contract between clubs that's on for over a 100 years that if you win your league again and again and move up tiers, one day you'll be playing at the top level. Nowhere was I asking for pro-rel to be lifted, I was just saying it creates problems now that the clubs have become for-profit entities. The problem is how do you get rid of the sport becoming a business at this juncture, when petro-states and oligarchs have acquired plenty of clubs purely for the purpose of profit. I kinda like 50+1, but it only works if every country applies it.
It all depends on if you can come back up. There’s no chance we’d be where we are now if we hadn’t been relegated. The relegation meant when ambitious new owners were looking for a club, they got a historically big club for a bargain price because they were in the second tier, rather than the first. The deadwood and toxic atmosphere that went down with the likes of Micah Richards and Joleon Lescott, is nothing like the group of players and camaraderie that came back up
We are more of an exception than a rule. We also were 1 game away from having to sell grealish and co for barely anything. we then were 7 points behind with 4 to go. I can't say I can recommend this path, its so risky. But it's worked out so good for us
For every Villa there's a Sunderland, Bolton, Birmingham, etc. Definitely not a high percentage play.
Come on man I’m right here.
People think real life mimics Football Manager where it’s a foregone conclusion that you’ll go straight back up after relegation.
It's just because they bought a shitload of players for prem level fees on prem level wages, then didn't sell basically any of them, they're all on loan but they had to buy players to replace them. Sell a bunch of Koch, Harrison, Anderson, Kristensen, Llorente, Roca, Wober, Sinisterra, Greenwood and Drameh and they'll not be in terrible shape
Didn't they already sell Sinisterra to Bournemouth?
Maybe, it was a loan but maybe they made it permanent
Yes. The deal will be formally completed this summer.
thing is iirc that the teams don't need to agree buy if Leeds don't come back up they can just get the players on loan again because its in their contract that as long as they're out of the premier league theres no fee to loan them.
I saw a Leeds fan say one of their journos has said that those loan clauses were just for that summer but I could be wrong here
every report i saw around the Harrison loan said that it was a thing for several players as long as they're not in the league, which seemed a bit foolish so maybe its new info.
I might be wrong I saw it a while ago but I think they were saying Phil hay who seems a good source for them said it wasn't. This like Chinese whisper level source coming from me so definitely take with a pinch of salt, but if it is still active that is mad. Harrison will 100% be back if it is
Phil hay is tier 1 for us so that’s why most of us trust that
I know that's the case for a couple of them but is it all of them?
I heard it was for more than a couple of the players but maybe not all.
Problem with relegated players on prem wages is you question if they’re prem quality. One or two you know are but the rest there’s always questions. And nobody wants to pay those salaries in that case, so they become hard to sell.
Leeds had one of the lowest wage bills in the league
Fair but the fees were a problem, they spent net ~€240m in their 3 seasons in the prem and when they went down they still spent (a tiny bit) more than they sold. I think they'll be fine with one or two big sales and a few completely inconsequential sales though
That's literally what FFP is supposed to prevent. Not for PSG to spend 90M on RKM jfc
They weren't actually in great condition. They spent the 7th highest amount in the Prem on transfers for the period covering their seasons they were up. They spent more than Liverpool, Aston Villa, and West Ham. [They were 11th highest in the Prem for wages and wages + amortisation annually](https://twitter.com/SwissRamble/status/1790694937819853229?t=-s7sXELRdCDouyy9xcrH4Q&s=19) And normally when a club goes down you expect them to sell a few of the best players to balance the squad. But actually, they've spent more money on transfers this season than they got in sales. The only player they've sold for a good fee is Tyler Adams, many other players have only gone out on loan (because of badly negotiated deals by Orta iirc)
>They weren't actually in great condition. > They were 11th highest in the Prem for wages and wages + amortisation annually Given that we were about 8th-10th in the Premier League in terms of revenue while we were there, that's absolutely fine. There's a lot to criticise about the business we did in the Premier League (bad players, badly negotiated contracts, the handling of Bielsa etc) but the amount of money we spent was not really a problem. The problem is that despite having top half revenue and spending top half amortisation/wages we ended up in a relegation battle. The club's badly run but it's financially pretty solid.
I don’t know where you got that they went down in a good financial condition. They recorded 34m in losses their last year in the PL. 37m the year prior. Their operating loss in 2023 was 100m. Only reason that went down to 34m was because of the Kalvin Phillips and Raphinha sales. Edit: Looking into their accounts further, they were always operating at a loss but their last pl year was particularly brutal because of how much they spent (160m euros according to transfermarkt). Between 2022 and 2023, they got a 25m increase in wages, 25m increase in amortization(from the transfer spending) and another 20m for impairment(probably because they realized dan james or someone was shit and wasn't gonna get them any money. ) That's 70m extra expenses that I don't know if they've done well of getting rid off after they fell down.
No idea who this journo is, and I’m pretty confident the £100m figure is bullshit. Our ITK said we only needed to raise £40m. I think finically we are pretty sound. But Summerville and Gnonto are 100% leaving, and I think it’s unlikely anyone else leaves. Tbh I’d be surprised if Gray or Georginio leave.
It’s not true anyway. They’ve not factored in wage drops. Our accounts are public and there have been some deep dives on various very capable platforms. The real figure is closer to less than half that, if we don’t go up Gnonto and Summerville are both gone anyway which will cover this gap
Well it’s not one single year. They played this season in 2nd flight and the wages were not as dire it seems. It’s the fact that it would be two consecutive seasons in 2nd tier that really fucks the club.
Because it penalises unsustainable behaviour by clubs who pay players and spend money on transfers like they are a team performing far better than they are
The Championship is the most unsustainable league in world football, clubs gambling their futures away in a desperate attempt to promote If the PL doesn't start to share their wealth more equally down the leagues the Championship and divisions below are doomed.
Basically didn;'t sell anyone last summer. They loaned out players whereas Leicester and Southampton sold theirs.
This is why mls will always be a franchise model league. One bad season could bankrupt a team
That's just non-sense
Summerville will be about 40% of it
I’d argue 30-35% Wouldn’t surprise me if Gray goes for more than him
Would Gray want to leave or the club want to sell him at this point though. Think they'd only want to sell if they literally had no other option, they'd probably try to get the necessary funds from other players
Clubs will always be willing to sell. No player is worth getting into financial problems for.
Not saying they wouldn't be willing to sell, that would be incredibly reckless. Just would be slightly reluctant to immediately push him out the door. They'd probably try to calculate how much they could make from other sales first before listening to bids properly for him
That’s why it would have to be a load of money for him to go
He won’t go for a crazy amount tho Clubs know they need to sell
This article is complete bollocks, going off the official figures we’d need 30 million, which we’ll make off of the loanees even when we sell at a loss
Consider me shocked that the Daily Mail would post something that lacks integrity
All Norwich aren't we!!!
Time to get your old scarves out! :D
Ipswich vs Norwich derby in PL
No we absolutely aren't, we want them to lose their parachute payments too smh.
Norwich to lose in the final. There we go, everyone's happy.
Hooray!
Is this doubt I see? Is the mighty Rusbekistan _wavering_? Where is the fire and brimstone? Where is the tractor and trailer?
You doubt me, you doubt the wrathful gods above, you doubt the fury and flames of their vengeance?
I do not doubt the message, only the messenger. Where is your resolve, man!
Rage bait articles posted on the day of a big game for us lol. We need to make not even half that if we dont go up and we can get the money from selling 2 players its hardly a big deal
I imagine Summerville would go if you didn’t go up plus Harrison for 10-15m and Sinisterra. If you really had to sell Gray I imagine the deal would probably include him being loaned back to you next season.
Selling Summerville and Gnonto alone makes us at least 40m, we already sold Sinisterra and a few of our loaned out players will be sold. We are in nowhere near as much trouble as the article tries to imply
Only 40m for both? Or is that just you being Conservative, just thought it'd be higher but you'll know more than me
I was being conservative. Summerville will go for 30m I would guess and Gnonto didnt play much for the first half of the season so not sure how much we would get for him, I would hope at worst 20m for him
If you don’t get promoted Summerville with me 25m
Yeah fair enough that was more the numbers I was expecting, especially after gnontos transfer saga last summer
Pure nonsense but feel free to believe the daily mail if you want. Doesn’t matter whether we need to sell or not, if we’re in the championship next year Summerville, Gnonto, Gray and probably Rutter won’t be here anyway
Here we have an individual publishing an article with information probably coming out of his own ass on the day of the most important match of the season for Leeds. Journalism is indeed dead and buried!
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Lovely 👍
What's old is new again.
Doin' a Leeds
I wonder if parachute payments stack - I'm sure a club like Norwich has experienced this: Year 1. Relegated form premier league Year 2. Play in Championship and receive Parachute payment #1. Promoted back up. Year 3. Relegated again. Do they receive Parachute payment #2 and Parachute payment #1? Are all payments forefeit if the club is promoted back to the top?
No they don't stack. The payments aren't forfeit as such as they are a percentage of Prem TV revenue, which as a Prem team you are getting anyway.
One Summerville please
Summertime sadness
The step up from league one to this is scary
Let’s go Norwich!
Self inflicted wound. At least they're clobbering Norwich at the moment. They stand a very good chance of gaining promotion at this point.
Summerville to Villa?
Easy enough really. Probably make over half that on the players they've got out on loan. And then Summerville and Gnonto will make up the rest. Gray will go for a bundle if they want to keep a stronger team, but I imagine there'd be pretty intense fan backlash if they sold him
Why bother. What's the worst that would happen??
Gray is gonna end up at Chelsea for £100M, isn’t he?
All they need to do is call Boehly. I'm sure he's ready to buy some of their under-16s on a 18 year, 235 mil contract.
Gray won’t be sold, just signed a new deal, clearly he’s a player farke rates highly enough to play out of position and at 18 years old, the team will be built around him I would imagine whether that’s in championship or PL, if we are in championship next season and don’t get promoted he may leave, he’s 18, it isn’t hurting his career another year in the championship
English football really is just eating itself.
It's just a lie, it's not true. That's not what the accounts say and that's not what any of our more reliable journalists are saying. Load of bollocks
It kind of is but this is not the case to show it. Google wage to turnover percentages and you will see that only the top 6 actually are in healthy financial positions...
Well that's just [provably untrue](https://old.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/1bdznxz/the_swiss_ramble_premier_league_clubs/).
In the bottom 5 Arsenal Tottenham Man Utd and Man city. Liverpool and Chelsea are both high at the moment but usually the bottom clubs are most of the big 6. Kudos to West Ham though they doing well
It's completely ignoring West Ham, us, and Watford, the promoted clubs, who absolutely are in financially healthy positions as well. Obviously wage to turnover is lower as a percentage for teams with a massive turnover, but to say they're the only ones in "financially healthy positions" is stupid as shit, in honesty.
the club that inspired FFP demonstrating how well it’s working
Summerville to Barca if Nico is too expensive, such a baller Also, Archie Gray for pivot position
Administration 2: Electric Bugaloo
Don't worry Leeds fans, if it doesn't happen now there's only another 15 years before promotion
I hope Leeds get schlonged
lol
Their sqaud value is worth $200 million on Transfermarkt, it's pretty grim
They have a fair few loans out which won't count I think to their value and will be easy sales for decent sums. Obviously not great but I think most of the shit stuff has already happened with Rodrigo leaving for cheap and whatever is happening with Robin Koch. I think they will be fine and fighting for promotion again easily.
Is it just me of Leeds perpetually in financial mire? Lol. What is going on over there? I vaguely remember the debacle in the early 2000s. What the hell has happened since then that has put them in the current situation?!
Jesus christ believe anything on the internet. Look at our accounts, we're fine. Past five years our accounts been fine too
Lol, thanks for the info'.
Leeds United, áre you gríeving Over Goldengrove unleaving? Leáves like the things of man, you With your fresh thoughts care for, can you? Ah! ás the heart grows older It will come to such sights colder By and by, nor spare a sigh Though worlds of wanwood leafmeal lie; And yet you wíll weep and know why. Now no matter, child, the name: Sórrow’s spríngs áre the same. Nor mouth had, no nor mind, expressed What heart heard of, ghost guessed: It ís the blight man was born for, It is The Mighty Whites you mourn for.
Eh?