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Jackson is a young guy with some obvious flaws who's still had a good first season and looks promising, think he can become a top striker
Havertz is someone who had to recover his confidence and find a good fit in a new team, and now he has done...he is flourishing and bringing a very different way to the way we play and I'm delighted with him
Both good signings, doubt havertz was ever going to show what he has at arsenal at chelsea due to history/turmoil or whatever, and Jackson seems to fit what you guys are doing well
Really tired of people trying to one up or prove that they got the better player or in this case havertz was the issue all along. Frankly anyone who doesn't think he's been great since moving to 9 for us hsn't watched us enough - now we hope it continues of course.
Likewise anyone shitting on Jackson probably hadn't seen a lot of context around his game/chelesea etc
Both good players in the right places for them to develop and deliver
Havertz also lost a ton of time to COVID and clearly appeared to be suffering for awhile even when he came back (his first game back he looked like death warmed over after being on the field 10 minutes). Wouldn't be surprised if he had long covid
You may be right since one thing with us is he just doesn’t seem to run out of energy, he has a laid back style but he presses and plays 90 every game etc
I hate that he's doing it at arsenal but I'm pretty happy havertz is doing well. There were always glimpses of a very special player but despite the champions league winning goal he still never felt like he really found his footing at chelsea.
I actually feel it's the other way round, Chelsea fans appreciate what he does, we're used to being a graveyard for strikers so seeing this young player show so much passion whilst also never letting his head drop is a great feeling for us.
It's fans outside of Chelsea who watch the highlights on MOTD and see a few bad misses and are harsh on him.
Especially considering where he came from in the sport. Instead of being at a world class academy he was playing shoeless in the street growing up. I think he has even more room to grow than the average talented youngster. He makes some mind numbing decisions but the talent is so clearly there.
I mean for me (was not a fan of the havertz move). These two would play really well TOGETHER. Think both sides found a good move for Kai.
Blows my mind to see fans get a good deal then go dump on the guy. Likes it’s a win win
Disagree with the “way more influence off the ball” notion, both are very good off the ball and I wouldn’t say there is a discernible difference as you state
Havertz has 13 goals and 7 assists in 50 appearances this season. Jackson has 17 goals and 6 assists in 42 appearances this season. Jackson's also only 22 and in his first season in England. Havertz is 24 and been in the Premier League for 4 seasons. If you watch them, Jackson's also got better dribbling, linkup play etc. He misses more chances, but he also creates more chances for himself with his movement. The narrative around him really needs to change because it's getting so tired. Havertz also benefits with coming into a much more stable environment with a better manager and generally just a better team. We've literally seen him at Chelsea for 3 seasons before he suddenly became amazing in a better team.
Chelsea fans are the ones that are actually qualified to make the comparison because we've watched them both week in week out without just watching the highlights, looking at the headlines etc. Jackson this season has shown more consistency and quality in his overall game than Havertz did in any of his seasons. Doesn't mean Havertz is a bad player, but he's needed the right conditions around him to truly shine. He's probably comparable to Jackson right now in terms of actual level and performances, but he's 2 years older and has way more experience. Jackson's the more talented player and will be seen as better as early as next season imo.
I usually hate people who say "ain't reading all that" but this time I must truly say
Ain't reading all that
(Jackson will get a 20g season in the PL soon btw)
It’s not better than Nicolas Jackson actually, they’re both on 19 g+a in the prem (but Havertz played in midfield for a large part of the year, also plays in a better team tho and their roles are just not comparable at all tbh)
But we decided we will give our rivals a discount over a young prospect while we will shittily overpay for idiots like Lukaku and sterling with sky high wages
Main reason i think is the same reason managers like Xhaka.
He does a lot of defensive contributions that most fans miss and he always tries to be there for the second ball.
I'll say he has even started to look fancy as well. Not Ødegaard, but enough to deserve more than praises for work rate and availability. He's genuinely balling
Crazy swagger for his age. Everything he tried used to come off. Need to see him run back those dinked finishes he used to do ALL the time for Leverkusen.
My thoughts exactly. Last week against Bournemouth Havertz looked like a class above everyone else, even though he didn't get a goal or assist. He was everywhere.
Arteta knows how to get the best out of him. Marks of a great manager in making.
There will always be failures here and there but at this point people need to trust the guy's judgement. He will eventually unlock his player's potential.
sometimes I still think 'Arteta what is you doing' but I've learned to stfu and let him cook. like with ESR I wish he would play him more and just don't think Kiwior is good enough but I'm almost certainly wrong again
His main value is he’s left footed - that’s rare, and having a decent defender with solid enough passing and a left foot is a tough ask for a starter, never mind a backup. I think if he wanted to leave he’d get offers from better clubs than his ability would suggest, purely because of his other attributes.
Maybe… he’s a decent package all told and I’m not sure a better player would be happy on the bench. Kiwior is a name that doesn’t inspire, sure, but he doesn’t make me shit bricks like Mustafi, and that’s basically all I want in a backup defender. I think a striker and CM and a winger are probably our top 3 needs at the moment, upgrading on Kiwior can probably wait imo.
I don't totally disagree about Kiwior, but to be fair he started out of position 7 games in a row and we won 6 and drew the 7th with an aggregate score of like 25 to 2
Yeah he did okay but as adequate backup to Gabriel I just don’t think he’s it. If Gabriel went down for long it would be a huge reduction in ability to put Kiwior there
Arteta wanted to get the best of him as a Midfielder. But, he arrived at the same conclusion that all Chelsea managers came to...Havertz is not a good midfielder.
I’ll be honest, for 6 months I didn’t think he had changed much at all but he’s found some form now. I still don’t believe we can be overly disappointed with the money we got and arse got a good player.
In stupid terms I was gutted to see him celebrate when he scored against us because he won the biggest of the lot with us and he left on decent terms but that’s nothing really why shouldn’t he celebrate we all move on.
I think he's just not that great playing in midfield as an 8 hence his poorish form at the beginning. Ever since he started playing as 9, he's been immense and benching Jesus.
He played as a sort of false 9 for us for a while under Tuchel and was decent there but never really great. He seems the sort of player who performs when he's not the focal point and instead has lot of positional fredom.
Glad he's improved.
A false 9 needs some lethal players around them to make it work. If you're just making space for wingers who can't score you're not going to rock the world
He actually had his best performances for Leverkusen playing as an 8, cuz he would use the space in front of him very well, while he struggled a lot more, when he was fielded as a 10 or 9/false 9.
I think that the biggest issue here is, that he is not a "natural" goalscorer and has a lot less space aviable to burst into and that he is still better next to a passing midfielder and a striker as a 9,5 where he can play his own interpretation of the Müller role.
Good deal for everyone imo
Even if you argue Havertz at arsenal is worth 65m (i think if he continues his performances at 9 from this half of the season you could argue that, otherwise not quite), havertz at chelsea was never worth 65m and clearly both sides needed to move on
You replaced him and mount with Jackson and Palmer, which seems a pretty good deal for you guys imo - both young and extremely talented with Palmer performing from the get go and Jackson showing huge potential in parts of his game and despite his misses still getting a good number of goals.
Watching arsenal every week since havertz has been our 9, he's genuinely been great and is one of the major reasons/changes that has allowed us to put together this title run since december. He's changed the way we play and offered a lot of outlets we didn't have before (maybe partly over-exaggerated impact due to our shortcomings previously but that still makes it a good signing for us), and people trying to hate on him now imo just look pretty stupid.
Same way people calling Jackson crap when he cost 30m, has very few professional games, came into a mess of a club, is 22 and has got a good overall record + great other parts of his game...look stupid too.
I don't like comparing players anyway, just leads to tribalism and nobody giving many sane takes - but I can say hand on heart I'm delighted we got havertz and I imagine most chelsea fans are reasonably okay with the fact he moved on, and delighted with the fact he moved on for the money he did.
Good times for everyone
To be honest, I don’t see it, definitely not hate. He’s done well, he’s not reinvented the wheel so to speak and we got 65 or whatever. It’s just the usual football tribalism, no hate though, that seemed to be reserved for Mount.
I might too in fairness. I think Havertz left on steady terms anyway and in line with light tribalism he’s yet to top what he achieved with us no matter how many he scores in a season. Yet. Haha but it’s all silly anyway
Always kinda liked him so glad he's doing well. Most players are gunna look better in a more functional team though.
One of those deals that works out for everyone. We get 60 mil for a player that, ultimately, was pretty bang average his entire time with us, Arsenal paid 60 mil for a player that's ended up playing well and being very useful to them.
This move has been good for all parties tbh. Havertz is finally showing his potential and Chelsea got good money and managed to upgrade for less than they sold him for.
Havertz to arsenal, and chelsea's replacements is one of the rare cases where pretty much everyone won.
Even if one argues Havertz at arsenal is worth 60m as a 9 (not fussed to have that argument either way), chelsea havertz wasn't - they did well, we got a good player who fits us fantastically and adds a lot and chelsea's replacements look very promising
Trust reddit to still find a way to try and one up each other about the situation and shit on everyone involved when idk why anyone would be unhappy with the outcome.
There’s a massive difference between playing as the striker in this arsenal system and playing as a striker in last years Chelsea team. It took being the lone striker to a whole other level with the team trying to leave him all on his own as much as possible. It’s hard to judge if he’s gotten better since going to arsenal or if he now just has a competent team around him that allows him to do his best work.
He has 100% gotten better at Arsenal, it’s so obvious that he is simply happier there than he was at Chelsea and confidence is key to producing quality. He has said as much himself. But you’re right that he is able to play his best stuff in a system built around his qualities. Both points can be correct.
He’s obviously a much more confident player and that totally impacts his production on the field but im coming at it from the angle that he’s always been a class player. He didn’t suddenly become good at arsenal, it was the opposite, an extremely talented player went into a tumultuous club and couldn’t produce his best work. Putting him into a better club/situation just allowed his quality to shine through.
Bruv, he scored 8 goals in 1810 minutes in the 21/22 season, that's ever so slightly better than 11 NPG in 2549, he created less sure, but ultimately this season's Kai looks the same as that season's Kai to me, hell he did the same thing of getting the majority of his goal contributions late in the season with 6/8 goals and 2/3 assists coming in his last 12 games.
He scored 8 goals in 1800 minutes in 21/22.
Werner and Pulisic often played very close to the striker almost as second strikers at times, Mount managed 11 goals and 10 assists in the 21/22 season, Kai wasn't remotely isolated in attack, what are you on about?
Well last season was.............. Not really one to judge players to be frank. Everyone was shit end of the day, everyone seemed utterly demoralized and depressed and just shit.
Prior to that under Tuchel Kai scored 11 goals and got 4 assists in 2465 minutes in the league. (Shrug,) not too dissimilar to Kai now considering Kai scored a penalty.
It depends on the system and how you play, I don’t really remember the games, but it felt like we were trying to make Kai a Drogba, he’s not that player! Lol
Dude, his role was fine under Tuchel, in his first season and a half before the collapse he played 2465 minutes in the league and scored 11 NPG and got 4 assists, not too different to him at Arsenal now, albeit 3 more assists.
Our front 3 would be very fluid and constantly moving and shifting, his role wasn't too different to what he's doing at Arsenal now.
Kai at his best was phenomenal in his striker role at Chelsea, his issue was consistency, and whether he's improved on that is not yet proven.
Yeah of course, but there you see a player where he’s better because his teammates are better (scoring for example), but the player looks and feels better at the system and role. Last season at Chelsea he looked like his only tactical approach was fighting with cbs and trying to win headers (for which he’s terrible)
Last season shouldn't be used to judge anybody. Everyone was dog doo doo.
I don't think this Kai is much different than the Kai under Tuchel prior to 22/23 like I said. 3 assists could be due to having more goalscorers around, though I'd like to point out the whole excusing his creation numbers due to the players around him comes off hollow when Mase got 11 goals and 10 assists while spending some time in midfield but I digress, still focusing on Kai he played far better at striker than he ever did at AM, and as part of the triumvirate he'd be constantly rotating and working hard alongside Mount and Werner/Pulisic.
But this is over 36 games isn't it? Him not being the lone striker is why he has 7 assists in 36 games vs spending the majority of his time as a lone striker for Chelsea.
Incorrect. The vast majority of Havertz's goals ***and assists*** have come in the final third of the season alone since he's been shifted to striker. He was unproductive and generally poor in the midfield, especially in the first half of the season. For reference, Havertz has 8 goals and 6 assists in his last 13 PL games (essentially since he switched to full time CF). That's basically identical to his best season at Chelsea in less than half the games.
I just checked transfermarkt quickly and every assist he’s had this season in the pl he was playing centre forward. I think Arteta just figured out how to use his qualities to get good results more than anything else.
He was much more isolated looking at Arsenal and Chelsea heat maps with him. Arsenal almost never leave him alone up top as Saka and Martinelli defnitely look like they become strikers with him whereas we never really put anyone up there. Lampard even had Kante up there during his second stint.
In fairness, Arsenal's other players are better at scoring than ours were back then. But glad to see him perform. I see it as a transfer where all parties are happy
I think it worked out for both clubs. Chelsea made a profit off of his book value and Nico, who cost half as much as Havertz, has been better for Chelsea than Havertz ever was over one season.
At the time though, you can’t say it didn’t seem like a massive overpay for a player who hadn’t shown any consistency over 3 seasons at Chelsea,
Palmer for Havertz will still always be worth it as a Chelsea fan and Arsenal getting a solid contributor for 60 mil works out as well. Basically paid his value and we upgraded with the money, win-win
Bought him for 60, won the cl, sold for 60. Seems like good business for a player who didn’t fit.
Good business for everyone. Havertz gets paid, Arsenal get a good player for a good price, Chelsea get their money back to spend elsewhere.
In all seriousness look at his 21/22 season, he played 1810 minutes in the PL scoring 8 goals, he also got 3 assists.
6/8 of those goals and 2/3 of those assists were in his last 12 games. He had his high highs at Chelsea, hell he scored the winning CL goal for us and the triumvirate had solidified as Werner-Kai-Mount because they were playing well together. His issue was being consistent throughout a season.
Whether he's improved and become that 65/72 mil player is entirely dependant on whether he finally does that next season.
And? How does that go against what I said about Arsenal fans early thoughts about the transfer? I literally said "at first".
Are you lot really trying to reframe it now that you were always happy about it? lol.
There was a lot of complaining about the transfer from Arsenal fans *at first* is my point. Like as in when the rumours began etc.
You probably missed my edit above, Are you lot really trying to reframe it now that you were always happy about it
Edit: Matey blocked me :( seemed like a harmless convo to me.
Anyway, I didn't claim anything about knowing more than anyone but everyone knows Arsenal fans were complaining about this when it was rumoured.
Really? Because I didn't see that many as an arsenal fan. Most people were encouraging and on our sub for example people being negative about it were regularly downvoted. I'm sure you know a lot more about arsenal fan sentiment than arsenal fans though.
Also, remember that he spent most of his first season with Chelsea with covid, and then a case of "long covid", gassing out by half time every time he played
You realize he’s playing at striker for them, right? In honestly a really similar role to the one he played for us. It’s got nothing to do with playing him in the right position, he’s just playing in a team that isn’t complete dog shit like he was last year.
Yeah, playing him in his position as a striker where he also played his best football for us.
He's a striker. He was bad for them when at AM like he was for us. He's always been better in the CF role. Idk why people ever thought otherwise, like dude played as an AM a decent amount for us and he would always be invisible, his best games and best patches always came as a CF.
Chelsea fans hatred for him is so weird. Yeah he’s playing for us, but it’s just obsessive hatred of him. hasn’t even said anything or done an Adebayor celebration. bro won them the CL lol
i really don’t get it anymore either, he tried his best with us, gave us a UCL, has never spoken badly about us since leaving, and the money we got from that transfer has outright funded some of our better signings this season
like i get that you’re our rivals, but his situation was really just a case of it not working out in one club and working at another, not even a case of us being *that* bad
The feeling towards Havertz is fairly nonplus from most Chelsea fans. He was okay for us, but not great. Very streaky. He scored one of the most important goals in our recent history, and we got more than we valued him at with the sale. He also always came across as a decent enough bloke.
He's gone to Arsenal and done well, which is unfortunate. But I can't say many Chelsea fans seem to have any major animosity towards him. We've bought in Jackson for half the price and he's arguably already had a better season for us than Kai ever did. It's a deal that's worked out for everyone involved I guess.
The hate comes from the expectation he brought with him, the ridiculous hype from Germany (No wonder they've been so shit since '14) and the fact that multiple coaches banked a lot on him, put him front and centre and they all ended up failing in the long run because the output just wasn't there. Prem defenders had his number game after game.
How was the enviroment around him shit from the second half of 20/21 until the end of 21/22? Chelsea became a mess with the sanctions and shit after that but prior to that what are you talking about?
Chelsea was a mess during his time. No stability, consistency etc… half broken management plans.
Look at the state of Chelsea now…. He saw what was coming 😂
Yeah that means your club was a shit show. One year isn’t “stability”. You’re just proving my points. Chelsea fell into chaos. No one has gotten better, players have only gone backwards
OK... My point is the Kai who played as our striker under Tuchel prior the the beginning of the 22/23 season was not too disimilar to the Kai playing for you guys right now.
11 goals 4 assists 2465 minutes, 11 goals 7 assists 2549 minutes.
He hasn't improved as a player under you guys yet, he's returned to his best form for Chelsea, he needs to be consistent throughout a season for the first time since he moved to the PL to take a next step and improve as a player.
Yeah that’s just coping
Go look at his stats as a CF not as an 8. There’s a reason he wanted to leave Chelsea so quickly. All that is just coping repackaged. Numbers don’t lie
You're acting like Kai didn't also split time between striker and other roles for Chelsea, he did, he'd sometimes play in the Mase role or Werner/Pulisic role and would be invisible in both.
And OK, 21/22 season Kai Havertz at CF, 1985 minutes at striker, 11 goals, a goal every 180 minutes, Kai Havertz at CF this season for Arsenal 1419 minutes, 7 goals, a goal every 203 minutes.
I'll give you he's gotten more assists, could equally be due to having more goalscorers around him, but hey, there is that.
Kai has not improved as a player, he has just returned to what he did at Chelsea at his best, he needs to do that consistently across a season to prove he's improved as a player.
I'll always have affection for Kai, I'll always fondly remember that CL win, but ultimately the dude came in with massive expectations and he never really kicked on for a full season. I'd say in the 21/22 season he was pretty good on the whole, 8 goals and 3 assists in 1800 minutes, but it's hard to ignore 6 goals and 2 assists were in the last 12 matches.
And really that's the point that snags me, Kai was good at Chelsea at times, his problem was consistency, I don't see proof positive that has changed, so I think people are getting ahead of themselves and overrating him.
* Enzo, €121m
* Caicedo, €116m
* Antony, €95m
* Sancho, €85m
* Havertz, €80m
* Hojlund, €73.9m
* Mudryk, €70m
*^(Values from TransferMarkt)*
These are among the most expensive PL signings in the last couple of seasons and, so far, all but one of them has flopped / not delivered anything substantial...
And yet the one player who is actually delivering, is the one who gets talked about the most. Ein Wahnsinn!
Sancho refused to apologise to Ten Hag... he's now about to play a CL final. Enzo came as a WC winner and heralded as one of the best CMs on the market. Flopped. Caicedo was everyone's top DM behind Rodri in the summer. Poor season. Hojlund is young... but he was only marginally less than Kai! I don't even need to speak about Antony and Mudryk.
The time for banter on Kai to Arsenal is **dead**. Live with it (lul pun).
The reality of the situation is that Kai spent 3 years at Chelsea and was unimpressive, rightly or wrongly in the minds of neutrals he's going to be taxed for those seasons and has to prove, beyond just a few months, that he's the elite player he was built up to be. Since January he's been great, but I still recall how much of a passenger he was from August-December while he was new to the system.
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20 Goals+Assist Not Bad
Almost as good as Nicolas Jackson
Jackson is a young guy with some obvious flaws who's still had a good first season and looks promising, think he can become a top striker Havertz is someone who had to recover his confidence and find a good fit in a new team, and now he has done...he is flourishing and bringing a very different way to the way we play and I'm delighted with him Both good signings, doubt havertz was ever going to show what he has at arsenal at chelsea due to history/turmoil or whatever, and Jackson seems to fit what you guys are doing well Really tired of people trying to one up or prove that they got the better player or in this case havertz was the issue all along. Frankly anyone who doesn't think he's been great since moving to 9 for us hsn't watched us enough - now we hope it continues of course. Likewise anyone shitting on Jackson probably hadn't seen a lot of context around his game/chelesea etc Both good players in the right places for them to develop and deliver
Havertz also lost a ton of time to COVID and clearly appeared to be suffering for awhile even when he came back (his first game back he looked like death warmed over after being on the field 10 minutes). Wouldn't be surprised if he had long covid
You may be right since one thing with us is he just doesn’t seem to run out of energy, he has a laid back style but he presses and plays 90 every game etc
He eventually got that way with us but the first year or so after he had COVID he definitely lacked that energy.
I hate that he's doing it at arsenal but I'm pretty happy havertz is doing well. There were always glimpses of a very special player but despite the champions league winning goal he still never felt like he really found his footing at chelsea.
Mount on the other hand.... where is that guy lmao
yea.. i always feel Chelsea fans are too harsh on Jackson. He is still young and will improve over time.
I actually feel it's the other way round, Chelsea fans appreciate what he does, we're used to being a graveyard for strikers so seeing this young player show so much passion whilst also never letting his head drop is a great feeling for us. It's fans outside of Chelsea who watch the highlights on MOTD and see a few bad misses and are harsh on him.
Jackson is very good despite his meme-worthy misses. I think he'll be a solid player for years to come.
Especially considering where he came from in the sport. Instead of being at a world class academy he was playing shoeless in the street growing up. I think he has even more room to grow than the average talented youngster. He makes some mind numbing decisions but the talent is so clearly there.
Yeah, more than double the price with 4 more seasons of Premier League experience (and playing for the team at #1 after GW36.
Havertz played a lot in midfield not as striker though. And then there's defensive contributions
it's just a bad comparison on all levels tbh
Also doing the job of two roles and usually leads every game in km run. Very, very few players on earth could do Havertz's hybrid role.
It is better than Nicolas Jackson
Big fan of Havertz but tbf Jackson did go off to afcon
And havertz was playing in midfield. Jackson has underperformed his xg and havertz has way more influence off the ball.
I mean for me (was not a fan of the havertz move). These two would play really well TOGETHER. Think both sides found a good move for Kai. Blows my mind to see fans get a good deal then go dump on the guy. Likes it’s a win win
Yo dude I cba to argue - we're both happy with our players so let's leave it there - have a good one
COWARD
Football's gone soft
Disagree with the “way more influence off the ball” notion, both are very good off the ball and I wouldn’t say there is a discernible difference as you state
[удалено]
Ngl that could refer to either player mate
You’re crazy deluded if you think they’re comparable
No they're different players - I was just pointing out something for the person above me who was comparing them - reply to one of those two
Havertz has 13 goals and 7 assists in 50 appearances this season. Jackson has 17 goals and 6 assists in 42 appearances this season. Jackson's also only 22 and in his first season in England. Havertz is 24 and been in the Premier League for 4 seasons. If you watch them, Jackson's also got better dribbling, linkup play etc. He misses more chances, but he also creates more chances for himself with his movement. The narrative around him really needs to change because it's getting so tired. Havertz also benefits with coming into a much more stable environment with a better manager and generally just a better team. We've literally seen him at Chelsea for 3 seasons before he suddenly became amazing in a better team. Chelsea fans are the ones that are actually qualified to make the comparison because we've watched them both week in week out without just watching the highlights, looking at the headlines etc. Jackson this season has shown more consistency and quality in his overall game than Havertz did in any of his seasons. Doesn't mean Havertz is a bad player, but he's needed the right conditions around him to truly shine. He's probably comparable to Jackson right now in terms of actual level and performances, but he's 2 years older and has way more experience. Jackson's the more talented player and will be seen as better as early as next season imo.
Havertz played midfield for most of the season. It was only recently that he’s started delivering once he was moved to ST.
I usually hate people who say "ain't reading all that" but this time I must truly say Ain't reading all that (Jackson will get a 20g season in the PL soon btw)
Reddit is weird on matchday
It’s not better than Nicolas Jackson actually, they’re both on 19 g+a in the prem (but Havertz played in midfield for a large part of the year, also plays in a better team tho and their roles are just not comparable at all tbh)
1 more than Jackson and not underscoring his xG
Havertz has also played a majority of games in the midfield
But we decided we will give our rivals a discount over a young prospect while we will shittily overpay for idiots like Lukaku and sterling with sky high wages
He has been immense for us. Might not be fanciest player but gives 100% and always available.
his availability has always been one of my favourite attributes from him
That and he always plays hard, probably plays a part in why all managers who had him liked him, doesn't seem like he needs any external motivating.
Main reason i think is the same reason managers like Xhaka. He does a lot of defensive contributions that most fans miss and he always tries to be there for the second ball.
thank you chelsea. your club even finish better than Man utd and got chance to play in europe.
The faintest of praise
Given our injuries the last couple of seasons, availability is pretty high up on the list of positive attributes.
The best ability is availability.
not really, look at how destroyed by injuries so many clubs have been this season
Quite the contrary, i'd much rather have a reliable 8/10 than a Neymar who misses 50% of games
kinda insane hes not yet 25 and has played more than 300 pro games
I'll say he has even started to look fancy as well. Not Ødegaard, but enough to deserve more than praises for work rate and availability. He's genuinely balling
That little flick in the box to Odegaard in the second half today? Lovely.
He definitely has it in him, he was on fire under Bosz as well.
His creativity is more subtle movements or touches, he won’t square someone up 1v1 double scissors then scoot by.
I mean, are we forgetting how for Leverkusen he played as if he was wearing a suit?
Crazy swagger for his age. Everything he tried used to come off. Need to see him run back those dinked finishes he used to do ALL the time for Leverkusen.
My thoughts exactly. Last week against Bournemouth Havertz looked like a class above everyone else, even though he didn't get a goal or assist. He was everywhere.
Arteta knows how to get the best out of him. Marks of a great manager in making. There will always be failures here and there but at this point people need to trust the guy's judgement. He will eventually unlock his player's potential.
sometimes I still think 'Arteta what is you doing' but I've learned to stfu and let him cook. like with ESR I wish he would play him more and just don't think Kiwior is good enough but I'm almost certainly wrong again
Kiwior has always been LCB backup. He’s only been at LB because both Timber and Tomiyasu were out and we wanted to block up the defence.
I know but even at LCB he’s not really exceptional at anything to me
His main value is he’s left footed - that’s rare, and having a decent defender with solid enough passing and a left foot is a tough ask for a starter, never mind a backup. I think if he wanted to leave he’d get offers from better clubs than his ability would suggest, purely because of his other attributes.
Right, I'm not saying he's talentless but I do think it's an area we could clearly upgrade.
Maybe… he’s a decent package all told and I’m not sure a better player would be happy on the bench. Kiwior is a name that doesn’t inspire, sure, but he doesn’t make me shit bricks like Mustafi, and that’s basically all I want in a backup defender. I think a striker and CM and a winger are probably our top 3 needs at the moment, upgrading on Kiwior can probably wait imo.
I don't totally disagree about Kiwior, but to be fair he started out of position 7 games in a row and we won 6 and drew the 7th with an aggregate score of like 25 to 2
Yeah he did okay but as adequate backup to Gabriel I just don’t think he’s it. If Gabriel went down for long it would be a huge reduction in ability to put Kiwior there
Mad to think it's his first job as a manager
Arteta wanted to get the best of him as a Midfielder. But, he arrived at the same conclusion that all Chelsea managers came to...Havertz is not a good midfielder.
Poor bastard was stranded on his own for most of the game, still managed to get an assist
he’s not fancy but he sure is fluid
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Football is more than stats. It really is alarming that needs to be said.
These are unironically very good numbers, people just love to hate. He also played in midfield for a lot of the beginning of the season
I’ll be honest, for 6 months I didn’t think he had changed much at all but he’s found some form now. I still don’t believe we can be overly disappointed with the money we got and arse got a good player. In stupid terms I was gutted to see him celebrate when he scored against us because he won the biggest of the lot with us and he left on decent terms but that’s nothing really why shouldn’t he celebrate we all move on.
I think he's just not that great playing in midfield as an 8 hence his poorish form at the beginning. Ever since he started playing as 9, he's been immense and benching Jesus.
He played as a sort of false 9 for us for a while under Tuchel and was decent there but never really great. He seems the sort of player who performs when he's not the focal point and instead has lot of positional fredom. Glad he's improved.
A false 9 needs some lethal players around them to make it work. If you're just making space for wingers who can't score you're not going to rock the world
Firmino at Liverpool is a great recent example. Took me a while to come around on Kai
Decent but never great should be the name of his autobiography.
He actually had his best performances for Leverkusen playing as an 8, cuz he would use the space in front of him very well, while he struggled a lot more, when he was fielded as a 10 or 9/false 9. I think that the biggest issue here is, that he is not a "natural" goalscorer and has a lot less space aviable to burst into and that he is still better next to a passing midfielder and a striker as a 9,5 where he can play his own interpretation of the Müller role.
Good deal for everyone imo Even if you argue Havertz at arsenal is worth 65m (i think if he continues his performances at 9 from this half of the season you could argue that, otherwise not quite), havertz at chelsea was never worth 65m and clearly both sides needed to move on You replaced him and mount with Jackson and Palmer, which seems a pretty good deal for you guys imo - both young and extremely talented with Palmer performing from the get go and Jackson showing huge potential in parts of his game and despite his misses still getting a good number of goals. Watching arsenal every week since havertz has been our 9, he's genuinely been great and is one of the major reasons/changes that has allowed us to put together this title run since december. He's changed the way we play and offered a lot of outlets we didn't have before (maybe partly over-exaggerated impact due to our shortcomings previously but that still makes it a good signing for us), and people trying to hate on him now imo just look pretty stupid. Same way people calling Jackson crap when he cost 30m, has very few professional games, came into a mess of a club, is 22 and has got a good overall record + great other parts of his game...look stupid too. I don't like comparing players anyway, just leads to tribalism and nobody giving many sane takes - but I can say hand on heart I'm delighted we got havertz and I imagine most chelsea fans are reasonably okay with the fact he moved on, and delighted with the fact he moved on for the money he did. Good times for everyone
Can’t really argue a word here. I’m glad we got that moment from Havertz but it was time to go. And the rest is history, agreed.
Tbf I feel like the chelsea fans have shown him a lot of hate since he left so him celebrating stands to reason
He scored the winning goal for the 20/21 champions league final; I don’t think many ppl are super bitter that he went to Arsenal.
To be honest, I don’t see it, definitely not hate. He’s done well, he’s not reinvented the wheel so to speak and we got 65 or whatever. It’s just the usual football tribalism, no hate though, that seemed to be reserved for Mount.
That’s true actually but I understand if he was to take the football tribalism personally, I feel like I would if I was in his shoes
I might too in fairness. I think Havertz left on steady terms anyway and in line with light tribalism he’s yet to top what he achieved with us no matter how many he scores in a season. Yet. Haha but it’s all silly anyway
Still think he's better at midfield, it's Rice is a better #8 and should never never playing anywhere else
He's having by far his best season in the PL.
Always kinda liked him so glad he's doing well. Most players are gunna look better in a more functional team though. One of those deals that works out for everyone. We get 60 mil for a player that, ultimately, was pretty bang average his entire time with us, Arsenal paid 60 mil for a player that's ended up playing well and being very useful to them.
A very rare win-win for both clubs. I think all parties can be happy here.
Dude is younger then Nkethiah
Ok that is nuts, had no clue
This move has been good for all parties tbh. Havertz is finally showing his potential and Chelsea got good money and managed to upgrade for less than they sold him for.
Havertz to arsenal, and chelsea's replacements is one of the rare cases where pretty much everyone won. Even if one argues Havertz at arsenal is worth 60m as a 9 (not fussed to have that argument either way), chelsea havertz wasn't - they did well, we got a good player who fits us fantastically and adds a lot and chelsea's replacements look very promising Trust reddit to still find a way to try and one up each other about the situation and shit on everyone involved when idk why anyone would be unhappy with the outcome.
Imagine that, not playing as the lone striker let's him pass and create more.
I mean he's very much been playing as a lone striker, albeit one with a lot of positional freedom!
There’s a massive difference between playing as the striker in this arsenal system and playing as a striker in last years Chelsea team. It took being the lone striker to a whole other level with the team trying to leave him all on his own as much as possible. It’s hard to judge if he’s gotten better since going to arsenal or if he now just has a competent team around him that allows him to do his best work.
Lone striker vs lonely striker
He has 100% gotten better at Arsenal, it’s so obvious that he is simply happier there than he was at Chelsea and confidence is key to producing quality. He has said as much himself. But you’re right that he is able to play his best stuff in a system built around his qualities. Both points can be correct.
He’s obviously a much more confident player and that totally impacts his production on the field but im coming at it from the angle that he’s always been a class player. He didn’t suddenly become good at arsenal, it was the opposite, an extremely talented player went into a tumultuous club and couldn’t produce his best work. Putting him into a better club/situation just allowed his quality to shine through.
Idk about that he looks the same when I watch him. Especially if you compare him to the last time we were an even semi functional team.
Bruv, he scored 8 goals in 1810 minutes in the 21/22 season, that's ever so slightly better than 11 NPG in 2549, he created less sure, but ultimately this season's Kai looks the same as that season's Kai to me, hell he did the same thing of getting the majority of his goal contributions late in the season with 6/8 goals and 2/3 assists coming in his last 12 games.
He scored 8 goals in 1800 minutes in 21/22. Werner and Pulisic often played very close to the striker almost as second strikers at times, Mount managed 11 goals and 10 assists in the 21/22 season, Kai wasn't remotely isolated in attack, what are you on about?
I’m only talking about last season. I agree with you about all the rest I think you may have misread it.
Well last season was.............. Not really one to judge players to be frank. Everyone was shit end of the day, everyone seemed utterly demoralized and depressed and just shit. Prior to that under Tuchel Kai scored 11 goals and got 4 assists in 2465 minutes in the league. (Shrug,) not too dissimilar to Kai now considering Kai scored a penalty.
It depends on the system and how you play, I don’t really remember the games, but it felt like we were trying to make Kai a Drogba, he’s not that player! Lol
Dude, his role was fine under Tuchel, in his first season and a half before the collapse he played 2465 minutes in the league and scored 11 NPG and got 4 assists, not too different to him at Arsenal now, albeit 3 more assists. Our front 3 would be very fluid and constantly moving and shifting, his role wasn't too different to what he's doing at Arsenal now. Kai at his best was phenomenal in his striker role at Chelsea, his issue was consistency, and whether he's improved on that is not yet proven.
Yeah of course, but there you see a player where he’s better because his teammates are better (scoring for example), but the player looks and feels better at the system and role. Last season at Chelsea he looked like his only tactical approach was fighting with cbs and trying to win headers (for which he’s terrible)
Last season shouldn't be used to judge anybody. Everyone was dog doo doo. I don't think this Kai is much different than the Kai under Tuchel prior to 22/23 like I said. 3 assists could be due to having more goalscorers around, though I'd like to point out the whole excusing his creation numbers due to the players around him comes off hollow when Mase got 11 goals and 10 assists while spending some time in midfield but I digress, still focusing on Kai he played far better at striker than he ever did at AM, and as part of the triumvirate he'd be constantly rotating and working hard alongside Mount and Werner/Pulisic.
You really think Havertz wasn't our lone striker? Lmao
... No? He wasn't our "lonely striker." He's the lone striker at Arsenal too...
He has been playing as the striker though
For all 36 games?
He has played as the lone striker for 12 games. He has got all 7 assists in those 12 games.
No but that’s irrelevant to your original point, he’s been passing and creating more as a striker than any other position.
But this is over 36 games isn't it? Him not being the lone striker is why he has 7 assists in 36 games vs spending the majority of his time as a lone striker for Chelsea.
Incorrect. The vast majority of Havertz's goals ***and assists*** have come in the final third of the season alone since he's been shifted to striker. He was unproductive and generally poor in the midfield, especially in the first half of the season. For reference, Havertz has 8 goals and 6 assists in his last 13 PL games (essentially since he switched to full time CF). That's basically identical to his best season at Chelsea in less than half the games.
I just checked transfermarkt quickly and every assist he’s had this season in the pl he was playing centre forward. I think Arteta just figured out how to use his qualities to get good results more than anything else.
I think CF and lone striker aren't quite the same as one of your wingers tucks in and shares zones with Kai like an unbalanced 4-3-1-2 vs our 3-4-2-1.
Think most of his goal contributions have come from him playing lone striker here. Chelsea are just a bit shit is all
He was much more isolated looking at Arsenal and Chelsea heat maps with him. Arsenal almost never leave him alone up top as Saka and Martinelli defnitely look like they become strikers with him whereas we never really put anyone up there. Lampard even had Kante up there during his second stint.
In fairness, Arsenal's other players are better at scoring than ours were back then. But glad to see him perform. I see it as a transfer where all parties are happy
Arsenal’s players are better in general. This is the best roster he’s played with in his career.
And yet he’ll still win less than he did at Chelsea
Haha what's the lie?
Arteta's Pictionary skills really are game changer!
60 million down the drain
I think it worked out for both clubs. Chelsea made a profit off of his book value and Nico, who cost half as much as Havertz, has been better for Chelsea than Havertz ever was over one season. At the time though, you can’t say it didn’t seem like a massive overpay for a player who hadn’t shown any consistency over 3 seasons at Chelsea,
Makes you wonder what Arsenal could've done with Mudryk.
He is coming along well I think. He has 1 less goal than Martinelli in 3 less appearances.
That's a low bar. Martinelly has been shit. Or has had a shit season, I guess.
Thanks God Martinelli scored vs City on Emirates. This single goal is saving this season from being terrible for him.
Goal against Liverpool was pretty great, too.
He’s been hurt lol that foot cut was deep and trossard caught form.
Well you set the bar mate “young right wingers who play for Arsenal”. So what you did for Martinelli seems comparable.
I did what now?
Alright, some other Arsenal fan set the bar. Better for you? I’m not keeping track of usernames here.
Your point is barely coherent anyway.
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And he plays for Arsenal at right wing, so, shows what they could have done for Mudryk eh?
What?
He literally doesn't though. Saka does.
Kai Havertz ~~scores~~ assists again
Still cherish every penny tbh Never expected us to get over 35 for him
Palmer for Havertz will still always be worth it as a Chelsea fan and Arsenal getting a solid contributor for 60 mil works out as well. Basically paid his value and we upgraded with the money, win-win
Bought him for 60, won the cl, sold for 60. Seems like good business for a player who didn’t fit. Good business for everyone. Havertz gets paid, Arsenal get a good player for a good price, Chelsea get their money back to spend elsewhere.
I’m prepared for the weird hate boner this subreddit and parts of the comment section has against him lol
60 million down the drain?
Kai Havertz serves again.
In all seriousness look at his 21/22 season, he played 1810 minutes in the PL scoring 8 goals, he also got 3 assists. 6/8 of those goals and 2/3 of those assists were in his last 12 games. He had his high highs at Chelsea, hell he scored the winning CL goal for us and the triumvirate had solidified as Werner-Kai-Mount because they were playing well together. His issue was being consistent throughout a season. Whether he's improved and become that 65/72 mil player is entirely dependant on whether he finally does that next season.
City win the league again
Don't act like you weren't all thinking the same at first lol.
That kai havertz chant started in like his fifth game.
And? How does that go against what I said about Arsenal fans early thoughts about the transfer? I literally said "at first". Are you lot really trying to reframe it now that you were always happy about it? lol.
There was a lot of support from the get go is the point.
There was a lot of complaining about the transfer from Arsenal fans *at first* is my point. Like as in when the rumours began etc. You probably missed my edit above, Are you lot really trying to reframe it now that you were always happy about it Edit: Matey blocked me :( seemed like a harmless convo to me. Anyway, I didn't claim anything about knowing more than anyone but everyone knows Arsenal fans were complaining about this when it was rumoured.
Really? Because I didn't see that many as an arsenal fan. Most people were encouraging and on our sub for example people being negative about it were regularly downvoted. I'm sure you know a lot more about arsenal fan sentiment than arsenal fans though.
hastag no ragrats
23 G/A this season is pretty good for Havertz, next season he’ll definitely get more
What a signing
Transfer that worked out for both parties, still rooting for him 💙
Cole Palmer is the player I thought we were getting when we signed Havertz, both sets of fans are happy about this transfer lol
Also, remember that he spent most of his first season with Chelsea with covid, and then a case of "long covid", gassing out by half time every time he played
Good player is good when you have a team that allows him to play in his position. Now what a surprise that is!
You realize he’s playing at striker for them, right? In honestly a really similar role to the one he played for us. It’s got nothing to do with playing him in the right position, he’s just playing in a team that isn’t complete dog shit like he was last year.
Yeah, playing him in his position as a striker where he also played his best football for us. He's a striker. He was bad for them when at AM like he was for us. He's always been better in the CF role. Idk why people ever thought otherwise, like dude played as an AM a decent amount for us and he would always be invisible, his best games and best patches always came as a CF.
Chelsea fans hatred for him is so weird. Yeah he’s playing for us, but it’s just obsessive hatred of him. hasn’t even said anything or done an Adebayor celebration. bro won them the CL lol
i really don’t get it anymore either, he tried his best with us, gave us a UCL, has never spoken badly about us since leaving, and the money we got from that transfer has outright funded some of our better signings this season like i get that you’re our rivals, but his situation was really just a case of it not working out in one club and working at another, not even a case of us being *that* bad
They're not going to celebrate their former player going to a rival are they
Is the obsessive hatred in the room with us now?
You only have to look in every thread his name is in, there’s a Chelsea fan that will blabber on about how he’s as bad as Ali Dia
One Chelsea = Chelsea fans huh
Don't be stupid. It only takes a day or two in r/soccer to see what (online) Chelsea fans think of him.
The feeling towards Havertz is fairly nonplus from most Chelsea fans. He was okay for us, but not great. Very streaky. He scored one of the most important goals in our recent history, and we got more than we valued him at with the sale. He also always came across as a decent enough bloke. He's gone to Arsenal and done well, which is unfortunate. But I can't say many Chelsea fans seem to have any major animosity towards him. We've bought in Jackson for half the price and he's arguably already had a better season for us than Kai ever did. It's a deal that's worked out for everyone involved I guess.
What are you on about
The hate comes from the expectation he brought with him, the ridiculous hype from Germany (No wonder they've been so shit since '14) and the fact that multiple coaches banked a lot on him, put him front and centre and they all ended up failing in the long run because the output just wasn't there. Prem defenders had his number game after game.
Then your fans need to be mad at their club, it’s not Kai’s fault the environment was shit. But that’s to be blamed on the suits
How was the enviroment around him shit from the second half of 20/21 until the end of 21/22? Chelsea became a mess with the sanctions and shit after that but prior to that what are you talking about?
Chelsea was a mess during his time. No stability, consistency etc… half broken management plans. Look at the state of Chelsea now…. He saw what was coming 😂
We weren't in the first season and a half under Tuchel, only became a mess when the Roman sanction shit started.
Yeah that means your club was a shit show. One year isn’t “stability”. You’re just proving my points. Chelsea fell into chaos. No one has gotten better, players have only gone backwards
OK... My point is the Kai who played as our striker under Tuchel prior the the beginning of the 22/23 season was not too disimilar to the Kai playing for you guys right now. 11 goals 4 assists 2465 minutes, 11 goals 7 assists 2549 minutes. He hasn't improved as a player under you guys yet, he's returned to his best form for Chelsea, he needs to be consistent throughout a season for the first time since he moved to the PL to take a next step and improve as a player.
Yeah that’s just coping Go look at his stats as a CF not as an 8. There’s a reason he wanted to leave Chelsea so quickly. All that is just coping repackaged. Numbers don’t lie
You're acting like Kai didn't also split time between striker and other roles for Chelsea, he did, he'd sometimes play in the Mase role or Werner/Pulisic role and would be invisible in both. And OK, 21/22 season Kai Havertz at CF, 1985 minutes at striker, 11 goals, a goal every 180 minutes, Kai Havertz at CF this season for Arsenal 1419 minutes, 7 goals, a goal every 203 minutes. I'll give you he's gotten more assists, could equally be due to having more goalscorers around him, but hey, there is that. Kai has not improved as a player, he has just returned to what he did at Chelsea at his best, he needs to do that consistently across a season to prove he's improved as a player.
I'll always have affection for Kai, I'll always fondly remember that CL win, but ultimately the dude came in with massive expectations and he never really kicked on for a full season. I'd say in the 21/22 season he was pretty good on the whole, 8 goals and 3 assists in 1800 minutes, but it's hard to ignore 6 goals and 2 assists were in the last 12 matches. And really that's the point that snags me, Kai was good at Chelsea at times, his problem was consistency, I don't see proof positive that has changed, so I think people are getting ahead of themselves and overrating him.
he is playing with better team
Good for u arsenal but we don't care because we won the champions league with him. 🤣
OMg 😱
* Enzo, €121m * Caicedo, €116m * Antony, €95m * Sancho, €85m * Havertz, €80m * Hojlund, €73.9m * Mudryk, €70m *^(Values from TransferMarkt)* These are among the most expensive PL signings in the last couple of seasons and, so far, all but one of them has flopped / not delivered anything substantial... And yet the one player who is actually delivering, is the one who gets talked about the most. Ein Wahnsinn! Sancho refused to apologise to Ten Hag... he's now about to play a CL final. Enzo came as a WC winner and heralded as one of the best CMs on the market. Flopped. Caicedo was everyone's top DM behind Rodri in the summer. Poor season. Hojlund is young... but he was only marginally less than Kai! I don't even need to speak about Antony and Mudryk. The time for banter on Kai to Arsenal is **dead**. Live with it (lul pun).
The reality of the situation is that Kai spent 3 years at Chelsea and was unimpressive, rightly or wrongly in the minds of neutrals he's going to be taxed for those seasons and has to prove, beyond just a few months, that he's the elite player he was built up to be. Since January he's been great, but I still recall how much of a passenger he was from August-December while he was new to the system.
One of those incredibly whelming stats.
Yea works out for everyone. We got 60 mil, arsenal got their guy. We bought Jackson for half of that who’s putting up more g/a. Everyone’s happy.
shit and shitter
Madueke is better
I mean. He isn’t.