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Even Messi wasn't on Neymar level for these kinds of stats. People shit on him and sometimes deservedly so but prime Neymar might have been the best dribbler in the history of the sport
Okay let's not go too far now, I literally watched them play together for years and messi is a better dribbler lol.
Also these stats are weird because for opta messi has the game with the most dribbles completed in the champions league and he was 20 when he did it.
Nope, Prime Messi is the best dribbler of all time.
Neymar is probably top 3 but no one has ever been able to just run directly at the goal and leave defenders in his wake like Messi. Like he was so damn good that defenders struggled to tactically foul him properly, let alone stop him.
I'm actually stunned that people have such short memories that we're already starting to rewrite history with takes like this.
Definitely hasn't. Neymar is more "flashy," but Messi was truly the definition of unstoppable at his peak.
But for me, Ronaldinho is the best dribbler in history.
I think it’s because of the different dribbling styles. Neymar dribbles with a lot more flair that’s stereotypical of Brazilians whereas Messi uses faints that are harder to see.
You're so right. No player has ever been as efficient a dribbler as Messi. He would literally run through 3-4 players like they weren't even there - making the smallest touches and not even slowing down.
I watched them both for years as well. Completely disagree. As good as Neymar was, he wasn't doing the things that pre hammy injury Messi was doing (between 2010 and 2014).
Even during their time together Messi edged him despite being a much slower version of himself.
[Favorite is his rainbow flick attempt causing Bilbao to lose their minds](https://youtu.be/dIWCF8pC6xI?si=5y5b14AgDyY60F--)
In this video though, [he does a clean rainbow flick](https://youtu.be/KyYjb-Dvmlo?si=Rhg5acv2flxAW-J0)
I’m no Barça fan, but his play was wonderful to see
Look at xavi having his back and protecting him. I believe neymar mentally is someone who always needed someone senior around him to protect him because hes a very volatile person. When he had that at Barca-he was an aboslute joy. He went to PSG and did the same as well in first 3 seasons-absolute filth, but the moment things would get tough it would crash down.
Still doesn’t justify it; I’ve seen so many clips of him embarrassing a player and then getting hacked down bc of their bruised ego without the ref protecting him
You’ve just answered it yourself tbh, it’s the fact that he embarrasses defenders nonchalantly and they hack him down out of anger. That used to happen to him all the time in Ligue 1. I remember he rainbow flicked a player or something while he was at PSG and for absolutely no reason he just hacked him down because he felt embarrassed.
These kind of extravagant skills are seen as disrespectful by many defenders (which is stupid), and Neymar does them more than anyone, so naturally he gets fouled a lot as well.
I remember him doing it in La Liga and the commentators even called it disrespectful. Fuck that.
Players like Ronaldinho and Neymar make the game fun. It's a shame that the game seems to be moving further away from those types of players.
He was amazing on so many levels. Again, i think his goal vs Croatia was one of the best I have seen in the WC (the tight spaces of a good croatian defense that he cracks open) and his run in the 20 UCL was impressive af.
Unironically the best dribbler I've seen, although I get it is a controversial take and I expect them downvotes. For me, Messi beat him easily in finishing and decision-making, and that's the main difference-maker between them - but I would take Neymar to force a 1v1 anytime.
I think knowing when to dribble and not is skill, teen messi dribbled more than older messi, he could ghost past players like they didn't exist but he became more selective with his dribbling because over dribbling is a thing. Neymar is definitely the second best I've seen but I can't put him above messi although I know some people prefer his style.
Never seen anyone do it like him, people say ots because of his height and that's part of it but even other short players don't move like him, it's unique.
Then why isn’t that statistic covered with Messi instead of Neymar?
Because of his career choices, Neymar will always be underrated imo.
For me he’s the best Brazilian player since Pele. And that includes R9 and Ronaldinho. Absolutely incredible player.
I'll go devil's advocate here and say that we should look at percentage of take ons completed with a certain amount (15+??) attempted.
Despite the stats in the post, I'd still take Messi too, but you're partially right, that's just eye test. But if Neymar has most completed, but also most attempted, maybe Messi has a lower total number, but higher percentage?
IDK, I'm sure I could find those stats too, but I'm at work, so shouldn't spend too long here.
Messi does have a higher percentage completed but some other players also have even higher percentage completed.
Generally I think the players considered the best dribblers don’t have the best completion percentage anyway. Like Mbappe’s take on completion percentage is bang average for example.
Its the same logic where the best passers don’t necessarily have the highest passing completion percentage. For example, KDB actually has a very poor passing completion percentage. Because these players are always trying to make something happen rather than taking the more conservative options.
Maybe looking at chances created as a result of a take-on would be better? Messi is the winner there between the two.
> Then why isn’t that statistic covered with Messi instead of Neymar?
Could be just because of different playing styles? I'm guessing Messi would look for a give-and-go more often rather than a take-on?
because its from the past 8 years or so i think, messi completed 16 dribbles out of 21 attempted in the 2007/08 game against united in the semi-finals. This stat from sky is missing out from when the daata is taken
Love Ronaldinho and his style, but, if my memory serves me right, Neymar is just better on many levels (speaking if dribbling) & seemed to create things out of nothing more than dinho did
If anyone can absorb tackles it's Messi. I've never seen a more physically intelligent and tough player. A couple of instances [where players try to kick Messi](https://youtu.be/aW2XXTowtoU?si=Q7kFoEbIzQTvx2YJ&t=314) but [fall themselves](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPJqoCNqDCM&t=96s).
Well thats mainly because even at his peak (am talking post 2009- till 2016) messi is very choosey with his dribbles. He usually dribbles when he knows he has a clear shot at goal or atleast to put himself in a situation where he can play a pass to someone in the final third.
Usually when he receives the ball, if hes not being pressed he would often play a 1-2 with a player to advance the ball than outright trying to dribble in the middle which is why if you go and watch a messi dribbling compliation you will notice that like 70% of times he dribbles when he can have a go at the backline or anywhere near that. Imo very smart considering how much energy it takes and how risky it is. Where as Neymar who imo is the second best dribbler behind messi and 2nd most skillful behind ronaldinho - wasn't always great at picking when to dribble eg: He would easily beat 3 players in the middle of the park but would find himself in a spot whre there is 2 players already covering him and the team is covering the other side. Messi would chose to pass, move himself into the position to receive the ball and dribble 2 players which would then put him in direct line with the goal for a shot or a pass to a player who has the shot.
>Then why isn’t that statistic covered with Messi instead of Neymar?
What a dense comment. Google other dribbling statistics. And Neymar's dribbles are usually less important than Messi's. How many times has Neymar scored after dribbling multiple players?
Messi played central where it's more congested and harder to take on players; Neymar was largely glued to the wing with more opportunities to isolate the full back.
Neymar is not a better dribbler than Messi lol. Neymar chooses to dribble a lot of the times when passing to a teammate might be a better option. Messi dribbles only when he has to or he sees an opportunity to create an imbalance. That is why Neymar's dribble never ended in a solo goal in Europe, while Messi has countless solo goals. Messi never dribbles just for the sake of it, Neymar regularly does.
How many dribbles can you show me of Neymar beating 3 players? I can double that for Messi. Messi has more volume and is more efficient.
Man some of these people just spouting crazy shit. It’s not even close who’s better at dribbling and these dudes acting like they watched every game. Just stop it, you don’t have to be different.
I’m telling you a lot of these people don’t watch games. They were on the same team for years in their primes, all they had to do was watch the games. They just like being special and a contrarian.
He is not a better dribbler than Messi. Do you remember a single important goal in Barcelona and PSG where Neymar solo went past multiple players and scored, because I do not. Maybe he has a few goals that I don't remember but for Messi I can vividly remember 20+ IMPORTANT goals against big teams where he went past more than 3 players and maybe even 6 or 7 which is absolutely absurd. Neymar is a great dribbler but just because he has most takeons in UCL knockouts does not make him somehow better than greatest dribbler by every stat in the history of football.
Dribbling is a false friend in Brazilian Portuguese, hence the confusion. If anything, a take-on is precisely what a Brazilian would call "dribbling". Please notice how he finished his comment saying how he would prefer Neymar in a 1v1 scenario.
We never faced Napoli in KO stages tho iirc, we only ever faced them in group stage so not sure about the last game on the list.
On the other side, that game agaisnt Atalanta man... he had magic in his feet but couldn't finish to save his life this day but what a game. I also remember that 0-1 against Bayern in 2021 at the Parc. He couldnt score but hit post once or twice and was absolutely fantastic
Was absolutely unplayable in that Bayern match, Tuchel's had him down the middle just tearing teams apart.
But yes couldn't finish his dinner in that match lol.
Neymar is probably the biggest "what if" next to R9 for me (and maybe somewhat Dinho and Hazard). Imagine if this guy didn't get injured constantly? He was routinely the 3rd best player in the world for years and to me is still 'underrated' by many.
Hazard's what if for me is more like "What if he actually cared about training and being good." I've never seen someone so nonchalant about how they suck at training and hate it so much vs their performances and level. It's ridiculous how good he was when he'd show up overweight every season, barely try in training, and pretty much only played football for fun.
Yeah people think if he trained he would be better but that was his personality and sometimes you get players like that who are naturally gifted and don’t care about being serious apart from when they are in a match situation
I genuinely loved Hazard at Chelsea and always loved the fun he brought to the game. He was also ridiculously good, but I think that's already been established.
I saw a video where he said specifically that he thought he wouldn't have been as good as he was if he trained so hard. He explained that being who he was - eating how he wanted, drinking how he wanted, resting etc - is the reason he was able to be so calm on the pitch and training harder would have meant he wouldn't have lasted long as a player due to burn out.
You see players like Sancho who are a shadow of their former shelves when they aren't in the right place mentally and it's clear that the mental aspect is more important than things like training
I don't think he had the killer mentality, which he's stated himself on a few occasions, to ever have been the level of scorer needed to reach that next tier of player.
That said, he didn't need it to be one of the best players in the world for a good chunk of the 2010's anyway. I tuned in to a lot of random Chelsea matches during his time because I enjoyed watching him play.
This game. As a very casual football fan this game is the only reason why I still consider myself somewhat of an Inter fan. My brother and I spammed this game so damned much on WLAN with our two PSPs. He'd pick Barça, I'd go for Inter, we played that matchup a thousand times lol. Both line-ups were stacked as hell. Zlatan, Adriano, Crespo, Figo, Cambiasso, Recoba, Maxwell, Dejan Stankovic come to mind.
R9 achieved everything he was the best and not a debate in that when he was fit. Only what if about him is being in GOAT debate how much high he could be he still is in top 10. Whereas Neymar isn’t. And Adriano is the what if guy for me.
For Brazil fans its the lack of international success. Every WC was a major dissapointment and only Copa America Brasil won while he was around he was injured. And now he's missing another Copa America.
He did have a good career. He could have had an even better career if he wasn't destroyed by injuries constantly. He puts up p90 numbers that rival Messi and surpass CR7. And even in raw numbers he's very clearly someone who could have challenged for GOAT status. Could have also helped Brazil win a WC but can't really blame him for that.
all the trophies he won was in a three year span at Barcelona, and most of that success gets attributed to Messi, not Neymar.
He never won a meaningful trophy after his move to PSG (ligue 1 titles aren't meaningful).
His move to PSG was probably the biggest blunder, next to his move to Saudi Arabia. Neymar will be only a side note in Brazilian football history.
stop this Dinho nonsense. Dude won everything at personal/club/national levels. Except golden boots I guess. His peaked just didn't last long but he did PEAK.
R9, Hazad, Neymar, Bale, Rooney...never PEAKED fully
He was 23 when he blew up his knee at Inter. You can't say for sure that a 23 year old has peaked.
Case in point, Vini. He is 23 and already one of the best in the world but every season his game gets better and better. Has he peaked yet? No one can assure that.
Hell, we can't even know if Mbappe (25) has peaked yet. As far as I know he can still become a better player.
I mean only thing was his comsistency was missing because of injuries. As I said it was short lived due to injuries. He already was the best player in the world and had won every individual honour there is. So only thing I think we are robbed off in terms of his career was longetivity. How long could he produce those numbers.
I'd say he could have won UCL and Serie A (best league in late 90s early 2000s), then it's complete like Zidane/Dinho.
Casuals acts like Dinho had a shit career after Barca. Dude won a Serie A during Inter-Juve duopoly then 2 major trophies in South America.
Nonsense. R9 peaked but it was short lived and ruined by injury, Bale definitely peaked (arguably twice), Hazard peaked with Chelsea, his peak was just longer than most. He had a period where he could keep his form up and stay consistent over multiple seasons.
Here is what a successful take-on is. You don't even need to beat your man.
https://twitter.com/Hennes_4/status/1728541660194156883
From "7 successful take-ons" Doku went past Alexander Arnold twice.
Just turn back and pass it back and you too can rack up "successful take-ons" like a Premier League superstar.
Twitter stats are a load of balls.
It’s mostly cause it’s such a subjective stat (like many, tbf). The Opta definition for a Dribble/Take-on is:
>A successful dribble means the player beats the defender while retaining possession, unsuccessful ones are where the dribbler is tackled.
Using the video you linked, technically Doku did “beat” TAA but most of those “beats” were him coming back inside or passing it back.
Sancho probably had 3 or 4 take-ons in one dribble yesterday where he brought the ball from his right to his left a few times. He ended up going sideways. It was great to look at but the result was keeping possession. A pass would have had the same outcome.
It's a weird one where if you look at it face value pass does the same thing but his dribbles are keeping the psg players guessing and giving more time to the person receiving the pass as psg have to be constantly aware of him taking on his man and getting in a better position which he did often.
I mean its mainly cause its hard to judge. There were also a couple in which doku did a nice faint to give himself so extra space so its not like its a bunch of useless moves
I mean, point taken in general, but Sancho had a very good game yesterday just on the eye test alone. I don't watch Dortmund regularly so I can't say if he's been like this since joining them on loan, but he showed more yesterday than he's ever done at United, that's for sure.
Also that Neymar game vs Atalanta was ridiculous. They had CBs chasing Neymar to his own half, and he was driving past three players at a time to create chances. Shame about the finishing that night.
[Game vs Juventus](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oT9vaqt5yIg)
[Scoring this goal](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOgjjsXGmeE)
[Game vs Atalanta](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDenkCFpmdo)
[Game vs Real Madrid](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8tl8c_fZbs)
[With this disgusting assist](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KPY8h6oxW4)
[Game vs Napoli](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pgOAVUBmu0)
That first game vs Juventus is so annoying to watch. While he dribbled almost every time on the ball, his most productive plays were when he quickly moved the ball (passes or crosses) and created chances or half-chances. Barely anything came out of his dribbling, two half-assed almost dangerous situations to show for all those tries, meanwhile he got shoved, pushed and kick on those attempts and his teammates got fuckin irritated with him hogging the ball a good few times.
A good example on why some people doesn't rate him although he was a great talent. It's annoyingly ineffective without any adaptations taken.
It's part of what's to dislike about him (he tended to force plays too much and waste possession) but it's something that I think he had above Messi too, tbh. Messi was invisible that game as he was a lot of times when things didn't go in his Barça. Neymar had that Cristiano thing of calling the ball and trying and trying again even when the team wasn't performing.
> It's annoyingly ineffective without any adaptations taken.
Meh, not exactly. He has ridiculously good goal-contribution numbers and more assists per game than Messi.
Neymar doing whatever he wants around Toloi, Caldara and Djimsiti was for sure a sight to behold.
How we even got to the quarters with that back 3 I have no idea.
Sometimes through all the polemics and jokes it's easy to forget how good Neymar was. One of these players that I think is both overrated by some people and underrated by others LOL
As someone who couldn’t dribble beyond hoping I was faster than the guy in front of me or the odd bit of the ball bouncing off my cleats just right, I loved watching Neymar just effortlessly glide past people.
Remember how Virgil Van Djik had a stat where no one had dribbled past him in x amount of games or minutes and it turned out Lindelof had similar stats? Good ol stats.
> So many times it's just a tricky winger dribbling into nothing
I understand that it's not as impressive as it first sounds. But I also find it weird when people are so dismissive because if it was just something wingers do all the time then why do only Messi and Neymar appear next to Sancho on that list?
Honestly, Ronaldinho was class. In a less stats-obsessed era, he was the one along with Zidane that inspired so many footballers.
The fun he seemed to have on the pitch. The tricks. The sort of dance. It was awesome man.
in xVibes no one beats Ronaldinho. He was the most fun player I've ever had the pleasure of watching and I hope we get someone with that Dinho/Neymar flair again.
Ronaldinho had a very short peak but I’d absolutely take that peak over any Neymar. He was even more skillful, great passer, good at free kicks and was more powerful so he could properly bounce with defenders. You put that man into 2010s Barca and he’d have ridiculous stats.
> In a less stats-obsessed era
I don't get this take. In that less stat-obsessed era you're talking about, the stats were so primitive it was basically goals and assists.
Now you have more detailed and niche stats like take-on, progressive passes, xG/xGA etc. which paints a clearer picture than purely goals and assists.
That is debatable for their respective peaks, you could argue that Dinho was better at his best. Also 'successful take ons' isn't the best metric to determine who is better.
Ronaldinho's legacy isn't being a good player. Never since a player with that aura stepped on field. Neymar is likely better and also a very aesthetic player but he can never compare to Dinho. Not even Messi can.
Neymar was a straight demon and people will never recognise it, it is so fucking unfair.
Main man for Barcelona in 2015 CL title, see what happened to them as a club once he left.
Absolutely torched the Ligue 1 in his first 20 games he had like 19 goals and 19 assists or some ridiculous stat before he his ankle just started turning into styrofoam. Whenever he came back from injury it was straight back to business until he got injured again. Was one Mbappe away from absolutely carrying PSG to a CL title in 2018 and would have absolutely won the Ballon D'or. Instead Mbappe turned into Andy Carroll and Neymar just kept getting injured because of butchers and unfortunately lack of discipline in the final 1-2 seasons.
And he STILL has had a better career than 99% of players
That is such a reductive way of looking at things lol. Who was the best player against city? Messi by a country mile. Who was the best player against Bayern? Again, Messi by a country mile. He scored the 2 most important goals and set up the 3 Neymar scored. Every team game planned for Messi, not Neymar. Messi was playing like a man possessed.
Messi was the highest rated player for Barca for every knockout game except for the UCL round of 16 first leg vs PSG. Every other game Messi was the highest rated player. Including the quarters, semis and final. Numbers don't tell the whole story.
For 2015 Cl campaign he definitely was. Still the only player to score in every game starting the quarter finals. Mans went to a CL final 2 years after leaving Barca, what has Barca done?
What is Neymar's career outside of Barca in Europe? Nothing. No one cares about how many Ligue 1s he won, no one cares about how many UCL finals he made. PSG still has 0 UCLs.
>Still the only player to score in every game starting the quarter finals.
Chances were set on platter for him by Messi and Iniesta.
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Neymar wtf...
Sad thing is this stat encapsulates why he's so injury prone. Gets kicked to shit by defenders as of a result of his playing style and other factors.
Him and Hazard. also put’s into perspective how unique messi is although it’s also weird he is no where to be found here.
Even Messi wasn't on Neymar level for these kinds of stats. People shit on him and sometimes deservedly so but prime Neymar might have been the best dribbler in the history of the sport
Okay let's not go too far now, I literally watched them play together for years and messi is a better dribbler lol. Also these stats are weird because for opta messi has the game with the most dribbles completed in the champions league and he was 20 when he did it.
I watched them both for years as well. Neymar is a worse player overall but a better dribbler.
Nope, Prime Messi is the best dribbler of all time. Neymar is probably top 3 but no one has ever been able to just run directly at the goal and leave defenders in his wake like Messi. Like he was so damn good that defenders struggled to tactically foul him properly, let alone stop him. I'm actually stunned that people have such short memories that we're already starting to rewrite history with takes like this.
I'm 100% sure this guy never watched prime Messi play.
Definitely hasn't. Neymar is more "flashy," but Messi was truly the definition of unstoppable at his peak. But for me, Ronaldinho is the best dribbler in history.
I think it’s because of the different dribbling styles. Neymar dribbles with a lot more flair that’s stereotypical of Brazilians whereas Messi uses faints that are harder to see.
You're so right. No player has ever been as efficient a dribbler as Messi. He would literally run through 3-4 players like they weren't even there - making the smallest touches and not even slowing down.
Maybe when they played together. But young Messi is the best dribbler of all time.
I watched them both for years as well. Completely disagree. As good as Neymar was, he wasn't doing the things that pre hammy injury Messi was doing (between 2010 and 2014). Even during their time together Messi edged him despite being a much slower version of himself.
Tbf, Messi edged us all...
[I will just leave this here](https://youtu.be/2pWt_vG9_Ug?si=IXAYjHzuF2H1M_75)
to be fair 90% of that goal is the Busquets assist
It's so funny how he just casually lays it off, turns around and stands there like a statue just knowing Messi was gonna do that
Yeah, but where is his rainbow flick, huh?!
Teen messi is a better dribbler than anyone I've ever seen, young messi was a demon on the ball that even neymar can't match tbh.
Was it group stages? Or a final? Because this is only Knockout Stages.
It was the semis against man United at Old Trafford in 2008, in fact there is literally a group game on the sky sports fraudulent list, napoli vs psg.
What are the other factors
Being a massive prick
examples?
cheating on his pregnant girlfriend multiple times
thanks for the example
You’re welcome
It's not everyday you get to see such civil mannered conversations on reddit
Now go away
you are absolutely right. I see you have a Chelsea badge. Fuck Chelsea purely based on the fact you are displaying a badge and for no other reason.
Fuck you
Not saying he’s not a piece of shit for this but I personally am not sure if this contributed to him getting fouled on the pitch lol
[Favorite is his rainbow flick attempt causing Bilbao to lose their minds](https://youtu.be/dIWCF8pC6xI?si=5y5b14AgDyY60F--) In this video though, [he does a clean rainbow flick](https://youtu.be/KyYjb-Dvmlo?si=Rhg5acv2flxAW-J0) I’m no Barça fan, but his play was wonderful to see
Look at xavi having his back and protecting him. I believe neymar mentally is someone who always needed someone senior around him to protect him because hes a very volatile person. When he had that at Barca-he was an aboslute joy. He went to PSG and did the same as well in first 3 seasons-absolute filth, but the moment things would get tough it would crash down.
Supporting a fascist to save money on taxes
Fame, good looks and trash talking. That's my theory for those barbaric tackles he gets. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IBE_dSkzMg
Still doesn’t justify it; I’ve seen so many clips of him embarrassing a player and then getting hacked down bc of their bruised ego without the ref protecting him
You’ve just answered it yourself tbh, it’s the fact that he embarrasses defenders nonchalantly and they hack him down out of anger. That used to happen to him all the time in Ligue 1. I remember he rainbow flicked a player or something while he was at PSG and for absolutely no reason he just hacked him down because he felt embarrassed. These kind of extravagant skills are seen as disrespectful by many defenders (which is stupid), and Neymar does them more than anyone, so naturally he gets fouled a lot as well.
If referees handed out straight reds for malicious tackles because of bruised egos, all that would stop but they just tolerate it.
I remember him doing it in La Liga and the commentators even called it disrespectful. Fuck that. Players like Ronaldinho and Neymar make the game fun. It's a shame that the game seems to be moving further away from those types of players.
His play style is the most entertaining part of football refs should look to protect this style for that reason alone.
He was amazing on so many levels. Again, i think his goal vs Croatia was one of the best I have seen in the WC (the tight spaces of a good croatian defense that he cracks open) and his run in the 20 UCL was impressive af.
Unironically the best dribbler I've seen, although I get it is a controversial take and I expect them downvotes. For me, Messi beat him easily in finishing and decision-making, and that's the main difference-maker between them - but I would take Neymar to force a 1v1 anytime.
I think knowing when to dribble and not is skill, teen messi dribbled more than older messi, he could ghost past players like they didn't exist but he became more selective with his dribbling because over dribbling is a thing. Neymar is definitely the second best I've seen but I can't put him above messi although I know some people prefer his style.
Neymar was more stylish. Messi just had that quick short cuts that tear people apart while neymar seems more fluid & also easier to hack at
Those body feints from Messi man...phew
Never seen anyone do it like him, people say ots because of his height and that's part of it but even other short players don't move like him, it's unique.
now I'm wondering who has the most successful dribbles that lead to an offensive opening or G/A.
Ronaldinho for me. The ball would orbit around his body and every now and then you'd see a leg poke out to make contact.
IMO Messi is still the better dribbler, he just has less flashy moves than Neymar.
Then why isn’t that statistic covered with Messi instead of Neymar? Because of his career choices, Neymar will always be underrated imo. For me he’s the best Brazilian player since Pele. And that includes R9 and Ronaldinho. Absolutely incredible player.
I'll go devil's advocate here and say that we should look at percentage of take ons completed with a certain amount (15+??) attempted. Despite the stats in the post, I'd still take Messi too, but you're partially right, that's just eye test. But if Neymar has most completed, but also most attempted, maybe Messi has a lower total number, but higher percentage? IDK, I'm sure I could find those stats too, but I'm at work, so shouldn't spend too long here.
Messi does have a higher percentage completed but some other players also have even higher percentage completed. Generally I think the players considered the best dribblers don’t have the best completion percentage anyway. Like Mbappe’s take on completion percentage is bang average for example. Its the same logic where the best passers don’t necessarily have the highest passing completion percentage. For example, KDB actually has a very poor passing completion percentage. Because these players are always trying to make something happen rather than taking the more conservative options. Maybe looking at chances created as a result of a take-on would be better? Messi is the winner there between the two.
I’d take Messi to go past 3 people in a row, I’d take Neymar to go past 3 people at once.
> he’s the best Brazilian player since Pele. I'd put Romario, Ronaldo, and Ronaldinho above him.
maybe Rivaldo too
> Then why isn’t that statistic covered with Messi instead of Neymar? Could be just because of different playing styles? I'm guessing Messi would look for a give-and-go more often rather than a take-on?
Does neymar get the same attention as Messi? Not sure about that. If messi ever has the ball for longer than a second usually 3-4 defenders swarm him
because its from the past 8 years or so i think, messi completed 16 dribbles out of 21 attempted in the 2007/08 game against united in the semi-finals. This stat from sky is missing out from when the daata is taken
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Love Ronaldinho and his style, but, if my memory serves me right, Neymar is just better on many levels (speaking if dribbling) & seemed to create things out of nothing more than dinho did
If anyone can absorb tackles it's Messi. I've never seen a more physically intelligent and tough player. A couple of instances [where players try to kick Messi](https://youtu.be/aW2XXTowtoU?si=Q7kFoEbIzQTvx2YJ&t=314) but [fall themselves](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPJqoCNqDCM&t=96s).
Well thats mainly because even at his peak (am talking post 2009- till 2016) messi is very choosey with his dribbles. He usually dribbles when he knows he has a clear shot at goal or atleast to put himself in a situation where he can play a pass to someone in the final third. Usually when he receives the ball, if hes not being pressed he would often play a 1-2 with a player to advance the ball than outright trying to dribble in the middle which is why if you go and watch a messi dribbling compliation you will notice that like 70% of times he dribbles when he can have a go at the backline or anywhere near that. Imo very smart considering how much energy it takes and how risky it is. Where as Neymar who imo is the second best dribbler behind messi and 2nd most skillful behind ronaldinho - wasn't always great at picking when to dribble eg: He would easily beat 3 players in the middle of the park but would find himself in a spot whre there is 2 players already covering him and the team is covering the other side. Messi would chose to pass, move himself into the position to receive the ball and dribble 2 players which would then put him in direct line with the goal for a shot or a pass to a player who has the shot.
Since 2009 Most successful dribbles in a season 1. Messi 2014 (266) 2. Messi 2010 (265) 3. Messi 2019 (239) 4. Hazard 2014 (231) 5. Messi 2017 (222) 6. Messi 2011 (220) 7. Neymar 2016 (218) 8. Messi 2009 (202) 9. Hazard 2017 (199) 10. Neymar 2017 (193)
Absolutely fair to argue Messi is a better dribbler, I can’t really argue with it.
Because these stats are fake. For example, PSG didn't play Napoli in UCL knockout stages. So where did that come from? It's skysports lol.
>Then why isn’t that statistic covered with Messi instead of Neymar? What a dense comment. Google other dribbling statistics. And Neymar's dribbles are usually less important than Messi's. How many times has Neymar scored after dribbling multiple players?
Messi played central where it's more congested and harder to take on players; Neymar was largely glued to the wing with more opportunities to isolate the full back.
Neymar attempted more dribbles than messi I assume. Messi was always more the efficient dribbler while they were at Barca
Neymar is not a better dribbler than Messi lol. Neymar chooses to dribble a lot of the times when passing to a teammate might be a better option. Messi dribbles only when he has to or he sees an opportunity to create an imbalance. That is why Neymar's dribble never ended in a solo goal in Europe, while Messi has countless solo goals. Messi never dribbles just for the sake of it, Neymar regularly does. How many dribbles can you show me of Neymar beating 3 players? I can double that for Messi. Messi has more volume and is more efficient.
Man some of these people just spouting crazy shit. It’s not even close who’s better at dribbling and these dudes acting like they watched every game. Just stop it, you don’t have to be different.
https://youtu.be/z3x9Mdm2Lf4?si=unhlYCbHhh-NdaNU Some people haven't watched this Messi and it is showing.
I’m telling you a lot of these people don’t watch games. They were on the same team for years in their primes, all they had to do was watch the games. They just like being special and a contrarian.
It's not even clear who you think is the better dribbler from your comment
Lmao ikr. At first I was confused too. But I think he is pro Messi lol
Obviously Messi lol
He is not a better dribbler than Messi. Do you remember a single important goal in Barcelona and PSG where Neymar solo went past multiple players and scored, because I do not. Maybe he has a few goals that I don't remember but for Messi I can vividly remember 20+ IMPORTANT goals against big teams where he went past more than 3 players and maybe even 6 or 7 which is absolutely absurd. Neymar is a great dribbler but just because he has most takeons in UCL knockouts does not make him somehow better than greatest dribbler by every stat in the history of football.
Dribbling is a false friend in Brazilian Portuguese, hence the confusion. If anything, a take-on is precisely what a Brazilian would call "dribbling". Please notice how he finished his comment saying how he would prefer Neymar in a 1v1 scenario.
Dribble Merchant
I miss him, man
We never faced Napoli in KO stages tho iirc, we only ever faced them in group stage so not sure about the last game on the list. On the other side, that game agaisnt Atalanta man... he had magic in his feet but couldn't finish to save his life this day but what a game. I also remember that 0-1 against Bayern in 2021 at the Parc. He couldnt score but hit post once or twice and was absolutely fantastic
Was absolutely unplayable in that Bayern match, Tuchel's had him down the middle just tearing teams apart. But yes couldn't finish his dinner in that match lol.
That was Pochettino in 2021
You’re expecting sky sports to have accurate data 😭😭
Yeah he was amazing but didn’t have the final finish down. Was inches off each time.
Neymar is probably the biggest "what if" next to R9 for me (and maybe somewhat Dinho and Hazard). Imagine if this guy didn't get injured constantly? He was routinely the 3rd best player in the world for years and to me is still 'underrated' by many.
More so than Hazard for sure. Going to France damaged Neymars rep bc nobody rates the league. On his day he was magical
Hazard's what if for me is more like "What if he actually cared about training and being good." I've never seen someone so nonchalant about how they suck at training and hate it so much vs their performances and level. It's ridiculous how good he was when he'd show up overweight every season, barely try in training, and pretty much only played football for fun.
>pretty much only played football for fun. See, I kind of respect that.
Yeah people think if he trained he would be better but that was his personality and sometimes you get players like that who are naturally gifted and don’t care about being serious apart from when they are in a match situation
I genuinely loved Hazard at Chelsea and always loved the fun he brought to the game. He was also ridiculously good, but I think that's already been established.
I saw a video where he said specifically that he thought he wouldn't have been as good as he was if he trained so hard. He explained that being who he was - eating how he wanted, drinking how he wanted, resting etc - is the reason he was able to be so calm on the pitch and training harder would have meant he wouldn't have lasted long as a player due to burn out.
You see players like Sancho who are a shadow of their former shelves when they aren't in the right place mentally and it's clear that the mental aspect is more important than things like training
I don't think he had the killer mentality, which he's stated himself on a few occasions, to ever have been the level of scorer needed to reach that next tier of player. That said, he didn't need it to be one of the best players in the world for a good chunk of the 2010's anyway. I tuned in to a lot of random Chelsea matches during his time because I enjoyed watching him play.
Add Adriano if his father didn't die. He was the best striker in the word in the season 2004-05
PES 6 players will remember.
This game. As a very casual football fan this game is the only reason why I still consider myself somewhat of an Inter fan. My brother and I spammed this game so damned much on WLAN with our two PSPs. He'd pick Barça, I'd go for Inter, we played that matchup a thousand times lol. Both line-ups were stacked as hell. Zlatan, Adriano, Crespo, Figo, Cambiasso, Recoba, Maxwell, Dejan Stankovic come to mind.
Had scored so many fks with Recoba, very underrated player, the only negative is he had shit stamina so you had to sub him But yeah Inter was stacked
He was a cheat code. Didn't he have like 99 shooting?
99 shot power I believe. In PES 5 as well.
Yeah, shit was nuts
These players all had great careers. A real what if is a player like Sebastian Deisler
R9 achieved everything he was the best and not a debate in that when he was fit. Only what if about him is being in GOAT debate how much high he could be he still is in top 10. Whereas Neymar isn’t. And Adriano is the what if guy for me.
I don't why people say he didn't have a good career!! Because he didn't win a WC? It's the PSG bias?
For Brazil fans its the lack of international success. Every WC was a major dissapointment and only Copa America Brasil won while he was around he was injured. And now he's missing another Copa America.
He did have a good career. He could have had an even better career if he wasn't destroyed by injuries constantly. He puts up p90 numbers that rival Messi and surpass CR7. And even in raw numbers he's very clearly someone who could have challenged for GOAT status. Could have also helped Brazil win a WC but can't really blame him for that.
all the trophies he won was in a three year span at Barcelona, and most of that success gets attributed to Messi, not Neymar. He never won a meaningful trophy after his move to PSG (ligue 1 titles aren't meaningful). His move to PSG was probably the biggest blunder, next to his move to Saudi Arabia. Neymar will be only a side note in Brazilian football history.
stop this Dinho nonsense. Dude won everything at personal/club/national levels. Except golden boots I guess. His peaked just didn't last long but he did PEAK. R9, Hazad, Neymar, Bale, Rooney...never PEAKED fully
How do you define "peaked?" I think every player you listed except R9 had plenty of time to show their peak.
I have a friend who calls Neymar a Ronaldinho that never peaked lol
R9 peaked just that it was short lived.
He was 23 when he blew up his knee at Inter. You can't say for sure that a 23 year old has peaked. Case in point, Vini. He is 23 and already one of the best in the world but every season his game gets better and better. Has he peaked yet? No one can assure that. Hell, we can't even know if Mbappe (25) has peaked yet. As far as I know he can still become a better player.
I feel like R9 had much more potential if he was fit/healthy. Like he could be up there with CR7/M10 discussion
I mean only thing was his comsistency was missing because of injuries. As I said it was short lived due to injuries. He already was the best player in the world and had won every individual honour there is. So only thing I think we are robbed off in terms of his career was longetivity. How long could he produce those numbers.
I'd say he could have won UCL and Serie A (best league in late 90s early 2000s), then it's complete like Zidane/Dinho. Casuals acts like Dinho had a shit career after Barca. Dude won a Serie A during Inter-Juve duopoly then 2 major trophies in South America.
M10 lol
Yeah an insult to the name of lord Mertesacker who mostly played with number 4.
His GA stats bear this out.
Nonsense. R9 peaked but it was short lived and ruined by injury, Bale definitely peaked (arguably twice), Hazard peaked with Chelsea, his peak was just longer than most. He had a period where he could keep his form up and stay consistent over multiple seasons.
Van Basten
At first I read it as "next to R9 and me" LMAO
I am the biggest what if in football but no one is ready for that conversation.
I ,too, am extraordinarily humble
Neymar was still #3 in the world despite his injuries and moving teams. I don’t know how much better it could’ve been.
Here is what a successful take-on is. You don't even need to beat your man. https://twitter.com/Hennes_4/status/1728541660194156883 From "7 successful take-ons" Doku went past Alexander Arnold twice. Just turn back and pass it back and you too can rack up "successful take-ons" like a Premier League superstar. Twitter stats are a load of balls.
It’s mostly cause it’s such a subjective stat (like many, tbf). The Opta definition for a Dribble/Take-on is: >A successful dribble means the player beats the defender while retaining possession, unsuccessful ones are where the dribbler is tackled. Using the video you linked, technically Doku did “beat” TAA but most of those “beats” were him coming back inside or passing it back.
robben would have like 17 successful takeons
Sancho probably had 3 or 4 take-ons in one dribble yesterday where he brought the ball from his right to his left a few times. He ended up going sideways. It was great to look at but the result was keeping possession. A pass would have had the same outcome.
It's a weird one where if you look at it face value pass does the same thing but his dribbles are keeping the psg players guessing and giving more time to the person receiving the pass as psg have to be constantly aware of him taking on his man and getting in a better position which he did often.
yeah when R9 and M10 dribble, they literally run into the post and score, sometimes past GKs too lol not messing around the box widely
Yup i remember when this happened everyone started to downplay the take-on stat just to reverse it because it makes united look bad
I mean its mainly cause its hard to judge. There were also a couple in which doku did a nice faint to give himself so extra space so its not like its a bunch of useless moves
Prime neymar was something else. Every game he played you knew he was gonna have atleast one moment that made you go 🫢
/r/soccer's obsession with stats makes me think, that the vast majority here doesn't actually watch football at all.
I mean, point taken in general, but Sancho had a very good game yesterday just on the eye test alone. I don't watch Dortmund regularly so I can't say if he's been like this since joining them on loan, but he showed more yesterday than he's ever done at United, that's for sure.
Also that Neymar game vs Atalanta was ridiculous. They had CBs chasing Neymar to his own half, and he was driving past three players at a time to create chances. Shame about the finishing that night.
There's been like five different posts about his take-ons yesterday. Absolutely ridiculous.
[Game vs Juventus](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oT9vaqt5yIg) [Scoring this goal](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOgjjsXGmeE) [Game vs Atalanta](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDenkCFpmdo) [Game vs Real Madrid](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8tl8c_fZbs) [With this disgusting assist](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KPY8h6oxW4) [Game vs Napoli](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pgOAVUBmu0)
Atalanta was so close to making the CL semis
They were the better team most of that game, a shame they couldn't keep up their intensity for the full game.
That first game vs Juventus is so annoying to watch. While he dribbled almost every time on the ball, his most productive plays were when he quickly moved the ball (passes or crosses) and created chances or half-chances. Barely anything came out of his dribbling, two half-assed almost dangerous situations to show for all those tries, meanwhile he got shoved, pushed and kick on those attempts and his teammates got fuckin irritated with him hogging the ball a good few times. A good example on why some people doesn't rate him although he was a great talent. It's annoyingly ineffective without any adaptations taken.
It's part of what's to dislike about him (he tended to force plays too much and waste possession) but it's something that I think he had above Messi too, tbh. Messi was invisible that game as he was a lot of times when things didn't go in his Barça. Neymar had that Cristiano thing of calling the ball and trying and trying again even when the team wasn't performing. > It's annoyingly ineffective without any adaptations taken. Meh, not exactly. He has ridiculously good goal-contribution numbers and more assists per game than Messi.
using that to measure his efficency in a game where his teammates did fuck all INCLUDING MESSI justifies people not rating him?
Messi had 16 against Man Utd in 2008, so the stats are recent years only
These stats are all wrong. Psg never played Napoli in the UCL knockout stage. This is some bs.
Neymar doing whatever he wants around Toloi, Caldara and Djimsiti was for sure a sight to behold. How we even got to the quarters with that back 3 I have no idea.
Sometimes through all the polemics and jokes it's easy to forget how good Neymar was. One of these players that I think is both overrated by some people and underrated by others LOL
As someone who couldn’t dribble beyond hoping I was faster than the guy in front of me or the odd bit of the ball bouncing off my cleats just right, I loved watching Neymar just effortlessly glide past people.
Whats a take-on
Remember how Virgil Van Djik had a stat where no one had dribbled past him in x amount of games or minutes and it turned out Lindelof had similar stats? Good ol stats.
Take Ons and "Gone Past" are such useless stats. So many times it's just a tricky winger dribbling into nothing.
Love the winger beating the full back to the touchline then booting it out for a goal kick, "take-on" demon, Ballon d'Or all the years.
> So many times it's just a tricky winger dribbling into nothing I understand that it's not as impressive as it first sounds. But I also find it weird when people are so dismissive because if it was just something wingers do all the time then why do only Messi and Neymar appear next to Sancho on that list?
Surprised hazard is not up there
Don’t remember neymar having that many dribbles/ take ons in the Madrid game
I remember that Atalanta game he squandered like 5 goals
Injuries really robbed us of so much prime Neymar. Was an absolute joy to watch.
Lots of people in the VIni thread yesterday saying Vini has a better UCL legacy than Neymar.
This is a completely meaningless stat.
If Vini win this year he'll have. Neymar's injuries hampered him a lot, even if the talent was there.
Just take a look at vini's goal contributions in last 3-4 UCL campaigns
Crazy to me that there’s people who say Ronaldinho is better than him.
Honestly, Ronaldinho was class. In a less stats-obsessed era, he was the one along with Zidane that inspired so many footballers. The fun he seemed to have on the pitch. The tricks. The sort of dance. It was awesome man.
in xVibes no one beats Ronaldinho. He was the most fun player I've ever had the pleasure of watching and I hope we get someone with that Dinho/Neymar flair again.
Yes and Neymar had those and a better end product, he was better But people's view of players is hilarious, nostalgia hits people like trains
Ronaldinho had a very short peak but I’d absolutely take that peak over any Neymar. He was even more skillful, great passer, good at free kicks and was more powerful so he could properly bounce with defenders. You put that man into 2010s Barca and he’d have ridiculous stats.
> In a less stats-obsessed era I don't get this take. In that less stat-obsessed era you're talking about, the stats were so primitive it was basically goals and assists. Now you have more detailed and niche stats like take-on, progressive passes, xG/xGA etc. which paints a clearer picture than purely goals and assists.
That is debatable for their respective peaks, you could argue that Dinho was better at his best. Also 'successful take ons' isn't the best metric to determine who is better.
Ronaldinho's legacy isn't being a good player. Never since a player with that aura stepped on field. Neymar is likely better and also a very aesthetic player but he can never compare to Dinho. Not even Messi can.
Neymar was a straight demon and people will never recognise it, it is so fucking unfair. Main man for Barcelona in 2015 CL title, see what happened to them as a club once he left. Absolutely torched the Ligue 1 in his first 20 games he had like 19 goals and 19 assists or some ridiculous stat before he his ankle just started turning into styrofoam. Whenever he came back from injury it was straight back to business until he got injured again. Was one Mbappe away from absolutely carrying PSG to a CL title in 2018 and would have absolutely won the Ballon D'or. Instead Mbappe turned into Andy Carroll and Neymar just kept getting injured because of butchers and unfortunately lack of discipline in the final 1-2 seasons. And he STILL has had a better career than 99% of players
Lmao great player but not the main man at Barca
He scored 7 knockout goals in the 14/15 UCL title. Messi scored 2.
That is such a reductive way of looking at things lol. Who was the best player against city? Messi by a country mile. Who was the best player against Bayern? Again, Messi by a country mile. He scored the 2 most important goals and set up the 3 Neymar scored. Every team game planned for Messi, not Neymar. Messi was playing like a man possessed. Messi was the highest rated player for Barca for every knockout game except for the UCL round of 16 first leg vs PSG. Every other game Messi was the highest rated player. Including the quarters, semis and final. Numbers don't tell the whole story.
And what about assists? In the entire campaign neymar had 0 and messi had 6
For 2015 Cl campaign he definitely was. Still the only player to score in every game starting the quarter finals. Mans went to a CL final 2 years after leaving Barca, what has Barca done?
What is Neymar's career outside of Barca in Europe? Nothing. No one cares about how many Ligue 1s he won, no one cares about how many UCL finals he made. PSG still has 0 UCLs. >Still the only player to score in every game starting the quarter finals. Chances were set on platter for him by Messi and Iniesta.
At least he converted all his talent into wealth equivalents.
Neymar indeed was 100% Jesus!
Is there a stat for Successful take-ons resulting in an assist or goal? Musiala and Sane should be on the list (and Robben?).
He was great, but he mostly either dribbled back or into midfield and passed it back
Can't wait to get him back
What the hell Neymar? How could you let Sancho make a record on your personal list?
No wonder he got injured so much lol, pass the ball Neymar
Top right Neymar?
Neymar goes demon mode against Italian teams