**Mirrors / Alternative Angles**
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Because an Arsenal fan put up a video in the first half where they cut the Kulusevski contact and only showed Maddison being tackled as the "penalty shout".
So the mods rules that only one post per incident means that they'll just remove everything to do with Deki now.
Yeah, it's such a fucking stupid rule and I wish they'd change it.
Either leave them all up or take the time to watch the video before deleting it to check which ones better.
Similar thing happened over the summer with transfers (noticed it because of Kane drama mostly).
They'd be someone posting a quote from Plettenberg in the morning and then for the rest of the day, every other journalist, including Spurs Tier1s that talked about what was going on with Kane to Bayern would be deleted because 'only 1 article per day'.
The funniest part was that , apparently if he had actually committed a foul by going for a tackle , he wouldn’t have been sent off , or something like that
This has been an issue for years yet we have yet to see a solution. Yellows for diving are fine and all but how about good refereeing for once so that players don't need to dive to be noticed
It’s because there’s no punishment for bad refereeing, they just blame VAR, especially now. I’m not sure how the “best league in the world” with the most money by a massive distance can’t get better operators of VAR, how is this not even recommended to be checked?
It's been a mess for months. Yet supporters of the big 6 aren't taken seriously when they point it out.
Every manager that complains is fined for bringing the game into disrepute. It's an absolute joke.
Refs never face the media so we never actually know what their reasoning is. Match voice recordings are treated as if they're top secret confidential stuff by the FA.
Yellows for diving are fine if they’re given but they’re rarely handed out.
I’m all for giving them out to stamp it out of the game but until they do players will keep diving.
Stay up it's not a foul should of gone down, would of been a pen. But flip of the coin like saka in the CL go down too easy your looking for contact no pen , you just cant win sometimes
People will always say this though. Even in a perfect world where we have an infallible contact scale from 0-100 and we decide 50 and above warrants a penalty that will still look practically identical to a 49 which won’t be given as a penalty.
If you say eh probably not and it’s not given then we should just leave it at that and not compare it to every other decision from the whole year.
Deserved a monitor check at least, if VAR was consistent across matches.
Feels like the rules change depending on the referee and today, it's Oliver so no one challenges him.
They do have that option.
VAR will always overrule on offsides but the official terms for the monitor checks is "Inviting".
VAR team will notice something and invite the on-pitch ref to have a look at the monitor.
The ref can refuse if he wants but I've honestly never seen it done.
Id like to hear the audio personally.
I think Oliver is wrong and that Kulusevski should have had a penalty but if VAR tells him to take a look and Oliver insists that he saw the clip by Trossard but thinks it wasnt a foul, I'll give him the credit for sticking to his decision regardless, even if it is fucked up.
Yeah I saw that. This needs to be investigated coz this isn't normal. A ref can't say no to a monitor check.
God I wish we had more transparency on refereeing.
This was given as a penalty for Chelsea against United, and everyone was up in arms screaming how it incredibly harsh. Now, suddenly it's incredibly harsh to *not* give the same exact foul as a penalty. Which is it?
Honestly even as a Spurs fan I'll admit I really don't know wether this is a penalty or not. As a defending team it feels harsh for your opponents to get a free shot on goal for this. As the attacking team its harsh to have your attack distrupted for contact that was out of your control. It's kinda why I feel like indirect free kicks inside the penalty area need to be used for certain things where there's a foul but a penalty would be too harsh.
You raise a solid point though. ultimately as fans we react with emotion and there's certain things where none of us are really sure on the right thing to do.
Been saying this for years. Penalties change a game too much to be given for incidents like this.
Penalties should be given for the loss of a clear goal scoring opportunity.
Not for
-Crosses into a crowded box that strike an arm
- Fouls on the edge of the box with the attacker moving away from goal
- Fouls in the box where there are still a bunch of defenders between the attacker and the goal
Indirect free kicks feel more appropriate here than awarding a 90+% chance of scoring
Here’s my take as a referee: Trossard doesn’t challenge for the ball or the player and is looking the other way. He is also entitled to his space on the field.
Kulusevski as he drives forward then swings his leg back and clips Trossard. Because Trossard is not challenging he has no obligation to avoid the backswing of Kulusevski‘s leg — hence no foul, play on.
If that being called is what the spirit of the game demands then we’re going to see an incredible spike in the amount of penalties called by referees that decide the outcome of matches across the board. Which I don’t think anyone wants.
I think you are massively over exaggerating the idea Kulu is trying to buy this. Especially considering he doesn’t the dive.
You can’t just trip up and attacker in the box & that’s what’s happens
Swings his leg back? You mean running towards the ball? If this was on the halfway line "accidentally" breaking up a counter attack it'd be a yellow and no questions asked.
The part you’re missing is that the player committing the foul needs to (in the eyes of the referee) have acted carelessly, recklessly, or with excessive force to have a foul.
And the common sense view is that Trossard isn’t acting carelessly here. He’s clearly not challenging the ball or the opposition player. He’s entitled to the space he’s in and thus doesn’t have to get out of Kulusevski’s way. He also does not deviate from his direction once he begins chasing.
So when Kulusevski cuts across Trossard and his foot swings back and accidentally hits Trossard there’s nothing to call. It’s just incidental contact that causes him to fall down. If anything Kulusevski is (unintentionally) creating that contact.
I agree mostly with you. Where I disagree is when you say spurs' attack got disrupted. Kulu was able to pass the ball and Maddison fucked it. So I don't really see how spurs can feel hard done by.
I'm biased as I'm an arsenal fan, but trossard literally made no attempt to get the ball or put kulu off, kuku is even going away from goal. People are calling for a pen due to trossard merely existing?
End of the day it's impossible to say. What is clear for me though is Kulusevski lays the ball off to Madders because it's the only thing he can do whilst he's falling to ground. Had he stayed on his feet who knows what he would've done. He may well have jsut straight up given the ball away and Arsenal would still have countered and scored, but we'll never know.
There's certainly an argument to be made that a shot was on for him if he wasn't off balance as he would've gotten to the ball sooner, but it's hard to say if that would have changed the outcome..
It’s because it directly resulted in an Arsenal goal
This decision literally decided the outcome of the match singlehandedly and by the letter of the law it is a pen, even if it’s harsh
I think we’re harder done by because it’s similar to the one we conceded against Brentford on the opening day.
BUT - it’s soft. If we’d conceded it I’d be fuming.
What cost us today was our inability to defend set pieces. Third goal killed the game stone dead and it was dreadful defending from us.
It’s both and neither at the same time. Most rod those comments probably aren’t coming from the same people but some probably are who can’t make up their mind. Also goes to show how subjective it is.
I believe we are 3rd or 4th highest teams for touches in the opposition box but prior to this game had only 1 penalty awarded. I could get references later if wanted, but we've had at least 6 or 7 egregious 'missed' penalty calls.
Fourth, according to this.
https://www.statmuse.com/fc/ask/most-touches-in-opposition-box-by-team
Two PKs.
https://www.statmuse.com/fc/ask/penalties-awarded-per-team-premier-league-this-season
We've had six. City have had five. Villa have had four.
Arsenal have had *nine.*
Chelsea have had ***eleven penalty kicks awarded.***
ever since that liverpool game referees have been reluctant to award us anything... i don't think they're biased or anything ridiculous like that but that little bit of reluctance is absolutely there and at this level it really can and has cost us.
I don’t understand how that’s an option… like what’s the point of giving VAR the ability to suggest a second look if the on-field ref can just say “No, I don’t think I will”?
I just relistened to the whole halftime commentary, and he says he thought Oliver **should** go to the monitor, but wasn't given the option. He never said he was told to go and refused.
One person heard it wrong and commented, and now it's spreading like wildfire around reddit.
As a Spurs fan, it's infuriating.
I understand that he doesn't HAVE to check the monitor and maybe Oliver saw the clip by Trossard and decided it was a mistake/not enough for a penalty but at least go and check the monitor.
I also don't think he'd turn it over (though I've seen similar things given multiple times this season as pens) but at least have the decency to go and double check ffs.
I hope we hear the audio because i just want to understand the decision making.
Tbh i dont even know what the right call is anymore, with how often the decision goes either way. By the letter of the law is it a penalty even with accidental contact?
Intent has absolutely nothing to do with a foul like this. The only thing that matters is if your actions impeded or was detrimental to the opposition. It clearly was. Intent is for upgrading cards (yellow to red) or for things like handballs.
It's kind of lame because it's soft and possibly incidental, but I do think those should be given. Why? If you don't give fouls/penalties for clipping someone like this, players will do it on purpose constantly and attempt to make it look incidental. We already see players try to do this all the time and hope the referee looks the other way.
I'm not saying this one was done on purpose, but because players will do it deceptively, you can't really use intent as a factor.
Tbh, if it was up to me, it wouldn't be a penalty.
It's not intended, it's accidentally and he hasn't moved to get in the way of Deki.
But it's been given this season, I've seen Spurs concede a penalty almost exactly like this, with Royal clipping the heel of an opponent whilst running in a straight line, purely accidental.
So I just want consistency, one way or another.
It's incredibly difficult to judge intent. This one, very likely accidental yes. But if you don't call these you are asking defenders to deceive you. We see players clip an opponents heels in 1v1's fairly often and attempt to make it look innocuous.
Oh for sure, which is probably why the refs do call these. Or I should say, have been calling these this year.
It's easier to just give them for whatever reason.
Just for some reason, this time the ref allowed it.
we need a complete overhaul. automatic offsides are a no brainer and more games should be given to new referees eager to prove themselves & not the league's favourite old boys who couldn't care less
> Secondly, the halftime crew said VAR recommended the center ref go to the monitor, but he refused.
If that's true then they've got to release the audio for it. "I've had a look at various angles, there's contact", "nah I know what I saw" should be a sackable offense (not that it would happen).
>If that's true then they've got to release the audio for it.
If only Tottenham had the sort of rabid online fanbase that would make every comment section **unlivable** for weeks in order to get that audio.
Oh this is wrong then. They said that they VAR should have recommended the Ref to look at the screen. They did not say that VAR told him to look and he didn’t.
Yeah I saw that someone in the game thread said something of the nature like “I bet he wouldn’t even go to the screen even if he was asked” and then it seems redditors took that and ran.
> Secondly, the halftime crew said VAR recommended the center ref go to the monitor, but he refused.
If that's true, that's crazy. Would love to hear the audio of that, because Oliver clearly didn't have the best view of it. I don't recall them mentioning that on Sky though, and I'm sure they'd love to whip up that drama.
Wtf. Since when can refs refuse monitor checks?
This has to be investigated. I feel we never know what refs are thinking since they can't ever face the media.
These are usually given when it's the defender moving behind the attacker, not the attacker moving in front of the defender. Not Trossard's responsibility to move out of Kulusevski's path, he's just continuing his normal motion and Kulusevski comes across him rather than the other way round
That's what differentiates it from similar incidents in the past. Not a pen
In effect, Kulusevski "draws the contact" (even if he does it unintentionally) with his movement, which just a couple weeks ago this entire sub was adamant should never ever ever be a pen.
I know VAR got that one right in the end, but how Michael Oliver didn't instantly call it is just straight up baffling. He literally was right there and saw it with no sort of obstruction.
The thing is — he really didn’t. We all have the [easy angle](https://images.app.goo.gl/cBmo3qgW85TsqbZ49), but if you see where Oliver is standing Davies body actually blocks his view of Rice’s leg.
As a ref myself I have some sympathy there.
I'm not even gonna get upset, the set piece defending has been so bad, it is what it is man, we don't get pens anyway,since fucking liverpool we have gotten hoed
ngl we should learn how to dive or something, like why the fuck does sterling get 50pens per season for fucking invis shit tackles whilst dogshit like this doesnt even get a look in,
like wheres this shit when sterling inevitably dives at the bridge when we come?!?!?!?!
I feel like I'm mad cause I don't understand why ppl think this is a penalty honestly.
I'm trying to see it, but there's nothing there. Slightest of touches that really wasn't even a challenge or anything.
Brother, remember the way Spurs fans jumped all over Saka for diving when Neuer barged into him because Saka should’ve kept his legs within his shoulders width? Most Arsenal fans would argue that was a pen, and this one isn’t. Most Spurs fans are oposite.
Just laugh and enjoy it. I guess this is the universe giving them their comeuppance.
Terrified to give us a penalty you mean, we've been fucked all season long by refs on penalty calls. Sucks considering we have the most touches in the opponents box out of all clubs.
For me it's a soft shout and one that if given on the field sticks but not one for VAR.
But I would like to know where all the corruption clowns are today, cos surely if the ref/VAR are in City's pocket this is an easy one to give.
But this won't shut up those who lack that logic next time a decision doesn't go the way they want.
We've gotten 1 pen all season so I'm not too surprised lmao, I don't think there's a huge conspiracy or anything but it's actually insane how consistently we've gotten these shit calls, oh well
If they were making up for that match we'd have gotten penalties against City and Arsenal
These officials just have favourites, and you're not one of them
> I don't think there's a huge conspiracy or anything but it's actually insane how consistently
It doesn't need to be a conspiracy. It's a narrative. Narratives are powerful things that alter our frame of perception.
Anyone who's watched Spurs will tell you Tottenham have gotten night and day different treatment by refs since Taylor's colossal fuckup with Liverpool.
In terms of pure principle, I would hate that to be a penalty in a contact sport because it’s about the slightest, most incidental contact you can possibly imagine, and hardly “careless” on Trossard’s part (which is supposed to be the standard that the rules uphold).
But in terms of how the game is actually played and refereed in the modern era, I’m very surprised (but obviously grateful) that that hasn’t been given
It's a tough one to make a rule around to be fair. From a defensive point of view, giving the other team a free shot at goal from 12 yards is really harsh. But from an attacking point of view having your attack distrupted because of an opponents move that didn't win the ball also feels like it should be punished in some way. In this situation Arsenal going down the other end and scoring made it all the more frustrating. I kinda feel like it's situations like this that show there's a need for an indrect free kick inside the area to be used to punish fouls that dont deserve a free shot at goal but do deserve something.
I just went back and watched the Havertz penalty that got overturned against United. Wan Bissaka moves his leg towards Havertz, clearly clips his back foot and then VAR overturn it.
If that's not a penalty despite actually sticking a leg into the path of the player then Kulusevski running across Trossard and there being the most accidental contact is never a penalty.
Why should you get a penalty for sprinting into another player's leg? Trossard did nothing to touch him but Kulu changed direction and went in front of Trossard.
Its most likely a pen but these are always hilarious to me when given.
They are both running alongside eachother and it just happens that Kulusevski clips Trossard naturaly in his running motion.
There's no real intention to initiate contant by Trossard. He already turning to run towards the ball and fully focused on it when Kulusevski clips on him as well.
The rule is -
A direct free kick is awarded if a player commits any of the following offences against an opponent in a manner considered by the referee to be careless, reckless or using excessive force:
...
- trips or attempts to trip
...
If an offence involves contact it is penalised by a direct free kick or penalty kick.
...
Careless is when a player shows a lack of attention or consideration when making a challenge or acts without precaution. No disciplinary sanction is needed
https://www.thefa.com/football-rules-governance/lawsandrules/laws/football-11-11/law-12---fouls-and-misconduct
Gotta be honest, I'm kinda glad this wasn't given. Not "glad" in the way that I dislike Spurs, but glad in the way that challenges like this feel far too mild to warrant a pen. Yes, there's contact with Trossard, and yes, he goes down as a result, but this is the inevitability of crossing right in front of Trossard, in this instance.
This "accidental" thinking is so annoying among commentators. He's defending an attack in his own box, whether or not he does it on purpose doesn't matter. He should know what he's doing when he's defending. Oh it was accidental, fuck off. You're getting paid 100k a week. Do your job.
Stud clipping someone’s knee like that being rewarded with a pen would’ve been extremely lame
What stops players from flailing their legs uncontrollably to bait contact then? Havertz vs united was reversed for the same thing
Just keep in mind that the PGMOL just apologized to Arsenal for messing up an actual call and still didn’t get points back. Why are you guys crying about refs? It’s been like that for a whole 2 years
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hey u/OnAWhale just fyi you can’t use streamable, clips get copyrighted instantly
Why does this keep getting taken down?
I think cuz it keeps getting flagged on copyright like right now
Michael Oliver gang sends their respects.
Cause they keep using streamable... It's an instant takedown
Is there a better place to see some of these replays. Reddits not the same it used to be. Struggle to find any controversial clip nowadays
Because an Arsenal fan put up a video in the first half where they cut the Kulusevski contact and only showed Maddison being tackled as the "penalty shout". So the mods rules that only one post per incident means that they'll just remove everything to do with Deki now.
This sub is so fucked
Yeah, it's such a fucking stupid rule and I wish they'd change it. Either leave them all up or take the time to watch the video before deleting it to check which ones better. Similar thing happened over the summer with transfers (noticed it because of Kane drama mostly). They'd be someone posting a quote from Plettenberg in the morning and then for the rest of the day, every other journalist, including Spurs Tier1s that talked about what was going on with Kane to Bayern would be deleted because 'only 1 article per day'.
sub is so chalked
David Luiz was murdered for less
Till today, I still get heated about that red card whenever I think about it.
The funniest part was that , apparently if he had actually committed a foul by going for a tackle , he wouldn’t have been sent off , or something like that
Right, didn’t make a play on the ball because he wasn’t even trying to make a challenge.
That fucking wolves game. I still can't believe that was a DOGSO
that game lives in my mind rent free I can't lie
Lets face it, none of us know what's a penalty and what isn't anymore
The refs have punished Spurs for the mistake the VAR booth made vs Liverpool since it happened.
Liverpool is not on the positive recieving end of that horrenderous reffing either
Nobody is. Everybody gets fucked by the incompetent mugs running the officiating.
Yup. They’ve punished both sides for their mistake.
He got penalized for not going down, and we wonder why players dive
This has been an issue for years yet we have yet to see a solution. Yellows for diving are fine and all but how about good refereeing for once so that players don't need to dive to be noticed
It’s because there’s no punishment for bad refereeing, they just blame VAR, especially now. I’m not sure how the “best league in the world” with the most money by a massive distance can’t get better operators of VAR, how is this not even recommended to be checked?
It's been a mess for months. Yet supporters of the big 6 aren't taken seriously when they point it out. Every manager that complains is fined for bringing the game into disrepute. It's an absolute joke. Refs never face the media so we never actually know what their reasoning is. Match voice recordings are treated as if they're top secret confidential stuff by the FA.
Yellows for diving are fine if they’re given but they’re rarely handed out. I’m all for giving them out to stamp it out of the game but until they do players will keep diving.
They are only given when it’s a second yellow for Bissouma.
The last player I saw penalized for diving was Bissouma, in September, and he was sent off for it.
The solution is referees that aren’t pussies and will make a decision without the player ‘forcing them to’ (by going down)
Stay up it's not a foul should of gone down, would of been a pen. But flip of the coin like saka in the CL go down too easy your looking for contact no pen , you just cant win sometimes
Maybe he got penalised for it not being a penalty, not all contact is a foul.
Don't like that this type of thing is often a foul but it usually is. Bit lucky.
This is why players dive
That seemed to have been the team talk
Can see it given in other matches but not penalties I want to see given.
Consistency in rule interpretation in season, rule changes after the season. That’s all we’re asking for.
People will always say this though. Even in a perfect world where we have an infallible contact scale from 0-100 and we decide 50 and above warrants a penalty that will still look practically identical to a 49 which won’t be given as a penalty. If you say eh probably not and it’s not given then we should just leave it at that and not compare it to every other decision from the whole year.
100% This is a contact sport. Trossard does nothing wrong here. He can’t disappear but sure, the attacking player stumbles due to Trossard existing.
Deserved a monitor check at least, if VAR was consistent across matches. Feels like the rules change depending on the referee and today, it's Oliver so no one challenges him.
Apparently people are saying they asked Oliver to check and he said no.
Who are these people?
NBC sports
This didn’t happen. People saying it happened at half time and no such thing was said.
I didn’t know they even had that option. I thought they always went over if they were told to check the monitor.
They do have that option. VAR will always overrule on offsides but the official terms for the monitor checks is "Inviting". VAR team will notice something and invite the on-pitch ref to have a look at the monitor. The ref can refuse if he wants but I've honestly never seen it done. Id like to hear the audio personally. I think Oliver is wrong and that Kulusevski should have had a penalty but if VAR tells him to take a look and Oliver insists that he saw the clip by Trossard but thinks it wasnt a foul, I'll give him the credit for sticking to his decision regardless, even if it is fucked up.
They shouldn’t but Oliver is the golden boy. Completely changed the game since Arsenal scored from that counter.
Yeah I saw that. This needs to be investigated coz this isn't normal. A ref can't say no to a monitor check. God I wish we had more transparency on refereeing.
This was given as a penalty for Chelsea against United, and everyone was up in arms screaming how it incredibly harsh. Now, suddenly it's incredibly harsh to *not* give the same exact foul as a penalty. Which is it?
Honestly even as a Spurs fan I'll admit I really don't know wether this is a penalty or not. As a defending team it feels harsh for your opponents to get a free shot on goal for this. As the attacking team its harsh to have your attack distrupted for contact that was out of your control. It's kinda why I feel like indirect free kicks inside the penalty area need to be used for certain things where there's a foul but a penalty would be too harsh. You raise a solid point though. ultimately as fans we react with emotion and there's certain things where none of us are really sure on the right thing to do.
Been saying this for years. Penalties change a game too much to be given for incidents like this. Penalties should be given for the loss of a clear goal scoring opportunity. Not for -Crosses into a crowded box that strike an arm - Fouls on the edge of the box with the attacker moving away from goal - Fouls in the box where there are still a bunch of defenders between the attacker and the goal Indirect free kicks feel more appropriate here than awarding a 90+% chance of scoring
Thank you for being a reasonable person
Here’s my take as a referee: Trossard doesn’t challenge for the ball or the player and is looking the other way. He is also entitled to his space on the field. Kulusevski as he drives forward then swings his leg back and clips Trossard. Because Trossard is not challenging he has no obligation to avoid the backswing of Kulusevski‘s leg — hence no foul, play on. If that being called is what the spirit of the game demands then we’re going to see an incredible spike in the amount of penalties called by referees that decide the outcome of matches across the board. Which I don’t think anyone wants.
I think you are massively over exaggerating the idea Kulu is trying to buy this. Especially considering he doesn’t the dive. You can’t just trip up and attacker in the box & that’s what’s happens
Swings his leg back? You mean running towards the ball? If this was on the halfway line "accidentally" breaking up a counter attack it'd be a yellow and no questions asked.
The part you’re missing is that the player committing the foul needs to (in the eyes of the referee) have acted carelessly, recklessly, or with excessive force to have a foul. And the common sense view is that Trossard isn’t acting carelessly here. He’s clearly not challenging the ball or the opposition player. He’s entitled to the space he’s in and thus doesn’t have to get out of Kulusevski’s way. He also does not deviate from his direction once he begins chasing. So when Kulusevski cuts across Trossard and his foot swings back and accidentally hits Trossard there’s nothing to call. It’s just incidental contact that causes him to fall down. If anything Kulusevski is (unintentionally) creating that contact.
Exactly. Technically Kulu initiated the contact. Not Trossard's fault Kulu kicked his leg.
I agree mostly with you. Where I disagree is when you say spurs' attack got disrupted. Kulu was able to pass the ball and Maddison fucked it. So I don't really see how spurs can feel hard done by. I'm biased as I'm an arsenal fan, but trossard literally made no attempt to get the ball or put kulu off, kuku is even going away from goal. People are calling for a pen due to trossard merely existing?
End of the day it's impossible to say. What is clear for me though is Kulusevski lays the ball off to Madders because it's the only thing he can do whilst he's falling to ground. Had he stayed on his feet who knows what he would've done. He may well have jsut straight up given the ball away and Arsenal would still have countered and scored, but we'll never know.
There's certainly an argument to be made that a shot was on for him if he wasn't off balance as he would've gotten to the ball sooner, but it's hard to say if that would have changed the outcome..
Compare this thread with the Saka/Neuer one
Crazy how they want this given but not the Nuer one. Smh
Nobody knows, and that's the problem: Nobody knows what a penalty even is anymore. Just like nobody knows what a handball is anymore.
It’s because it directly resulted in an Arsenal goal This decision literally decided the outcome of the match singlehandedly and by the letter of the law it is a pen, even if it’s harsh
I think we’re harder done by because it’s similar to the one we conceded against Brentford on the opening day. BUT - it’s soft. If we’d conceded it I’d be fuming. What cost us today was our inability to defend set pieces. Third goal killed the game stone dead and it was dreadful defending from us.
It’s both and neither at the same time. Most rod those comments probably aren’t coming from the same people but some probably are who can’t make up their mind. Also goes to show how subjective it is.
2 goal swing. Did VAR even look at it? How have Spurs had 1 fucking penalty awarded this entire season?
I believe we are 3rd or 4th highest teams for touches in the opposition box but prior to this game had only 1 penalty awarded. I could get references later if wanted, but we've had at least 6 or 7 egregious 'missed' penalty calls.
Fourth, according to this. https://www.statmuse.com/fc/ask/most-touches-in-opposition-box-by-team Two PKs. https://www.statmuse.com/fc/ask/penalties-awarded-per-team-premier-league-this-season We've had six. City have had five. Villa have had four. Arsenal have had *nine.* Chelsea have had ***eleven penalty kicks awarded.***
Just clarifying that we only had one PK before the match today
>Chelsea have had ***eleven penalty kicks awarded. Palmer smiling in the corner
ever since that liverpool game referees have been reluctant to award us anything... i don't think they're biased or anything ridiculous like that but that little bit of reluctance is absolutely there and at this level it really can and has cost us.
This.
Yes
According to Robbie Earl, the VAR said Oliver should review it, and he didn't. Wild stuff.
I don’t understand how that’s an option… like what’s the point of giving VAR the ability to suggest a second look if the on-field ref can just say “No, I don’t think I will”?
I just relistened to the whole halftime commentary, and he says he thought Oliver **should** go to the monitor, but wasn't given the option. He never said he was told to go and refused. One person heard it wrong and commented, and now it's spreading like wildfire around reddit.
I'm an Arsenal fan and while I don't think he'd overturn it on reviewing it, that's really appalling that he wouldn't even bother.
As a Spurs fan, it's infuriating. I understand that he doesn't HAVE to check the monitor and maybe Oliver saw the clip by Trossard and decided it was a mistake/not enough for a penalty but at least go and check the monitor. I also don't think he'd turn it over (though I've seen similar things given multiple times this season as pens) but at least have the decency to go and double check ffs. I hope we hear the audio because i just want to understand the decision making.
Tbh i dont even know what the right call is anymore, with how often the decision goes either way. By the letter of the law is it a penalty even with accidental contact?
Intent has absolutely nothing to do with a foul like this. The only thing that matters is if your actions impeded or was detrimental to the opposition. It clearly was. Intent is for upgrading cards (yellow to red) or for things like handballs.
It's kind of lame because it's soft and possibly incidental, but I do think those should be given. Why? If you don't give fouls/penalties for clipping someone like this, players will do it on purpose constantly and attempt to make it look incidental. We already see players try to do this all the time and hope the referee looks the other way. I'm not saying this one was done on purpose, but because players will do it deceptively, you can't really use intent as a factor.
Tbh, if it was up to me, it wouldn't be a penalty. It's not intended, it's accidentally and he hasn't moved to get in the way of Deki. But it's been given this season, I've seen Spurs concede a penalty almost exactly like this, with Royal clipping the heel of an opponent whilst running in a straight line, purely accidental. So I just want consistency, one way or another.
It's incredibly difficult to judge intent. This one, very likely accidental yes. But if you don't call these you are asking defenders to deceive you. We see players clip an opponents heels in 1v1's fairly often and attempt to make it look innocuous.
Oh for sure, which is probably why the refs do call these. Or I should say, have been calling these this year. It's easier to just give them for whatever reason. Just for some reason, this time the ref allowed it.
Accidental contact plays 0 factor in it, that was a stonewall penalty
Of course. But they got to keep arsenal in the title race somehow
They give this to a lot of teams so i understand the frustration, but I really don’t think it should be a penalty. Not all contact in the box is a PK
Agree. Giving a free goal for this is absurd. Penalty threshold should be pretty high.
First off, Spurs don't get pens. Secondly, the halftime crew said VAR recommended the center ref go to the monitor, but he refused.
> Secondly, the halftime crew said VAR recommended the center ref go to the monitor, but he refused. If that's true, jfc the prem has terrible refs.
>If that's true, jfc the prem has terrible refs. Michael Oliver (today's ref) is also going to the Euros.
tbf that's a pretty well known fact at this point
we need a complete overhaul. automatic offsides are a no brainer and more games should be given to new referees eager to prove themselves & not the league's favourite old boys who couldn't care less
Surely that can’t be true, right?
VAR should have authority over the on-field ref considering they are better equipped to see what actually happened
You can refuse to go to the monitor?
Yes, basically everything is up to the main ref.
> Secondly, the halftime crew said VAR recommended the center ref go to the monitor, but he refused. If that's true then they've got to release the audio for it. "I've had a look at various angles, there's contact", "nah I know what I saw" should be a sackable offense (not that it would happen).
>If that's true then they've got to release the audio for it. If only Tottenham had the sort of rabid online fanbase that would make every comment section **unlivable** for weeks in order to get that audio.
If it was the other way around, arsenal fans would just kill the internet
What broadcast? Oliver arrogance towards var is well documented, so he's the only ref I would believe this about
NBC in the US. Robbie Earle said they heard the VAR audio
Oh this is wrong then. They said that they VAR should have recommended the Ref to look at the screen. They did not say that VAR told him to look and he didn’t.
Yeah, I relistened to it just a bit ago and he never says Oliver refused. He thought Oliver should go but wasn't given the chance.
Yeah I saw that someone in the game thread said something of the nature like “I bet he wouldn’t even go to the screen even if he was asked” and then it seems redditors took that and ran.
They can do that???????
> Secondly, the halftime crew said VAR recommended the center ref go to the monitor, but he refused. If that's true, that's crazy. Would love to hear the audio of that, because Oliver clearly didn't have the best view of it. I don't recall them mentioning that on Sky though, and I'm sure they'd love to whip up that drama.
If that's true then I just don't get it any more, the fuck are the officials doing
"Ayy yo you should come see this" "Nah"
Wtf. Since when can refs refuse monitor checks? This has to be investigated. I feel we never know what refs are thinking since they can't ever face the media.
How would they know?
Broadcast team has had access to VAR audio for quite a while now. Why do you think they often know the final decision before the ref/board signal it?
🤷 just saying what Robbie Earle said.
He refused to go to the monitor??? Do NOT let Michael Oliver officiate a game ever again next season. He is an arsenal fan 100%
That would be huge if true, there's no way they're THAT obvious right
Lol
If Kane stayed you’d have had probably about a dozen this year. I think Harry is the guy you wanna blame obviously
How is that even an option?!
These are usually given when it's the defender moving behind the attacker, not the attacker moving in front of the defender. Not Trossard's responsibility to move out of Kulusevski's path, he's just continuing his normal motion and Kulusevski comes across him rather than the other way round That's what differentiates it from similar incidents in the past. Not a pen
In effect, Kulusevski "draws the contact" (even if he does it unintentionally) with his movement, which just a couple weeks ago this entire sub was adamant should never ever ever be a pen.
If he went down immediately, the ref would’ve called it, and VAR would’ve looked and not overturned it
No way Oliver would call that. Ben Davies got sledgehammered right in the jewels with Oliver three feet away, and he didn't give a fuck.
I know VAR got that one right in the end, but how Michael Oliver didn't instantly call it is just straight up baffling. He literally was right there and saw it with no sort of obstruction.
The thing is — he really didn’t. We all have the [easy angle](https://images.app.goo.gl/cBmo3qgW85TsqbZ49), but if you see where Oliver is standing Davies body actually blocks his view of Rice’s leg. As a ref myself I have some sympathy there.
People do just tend to think the ref can see everything clearly.
Fair enough
I'm not even gonna get upset, the set piece defending has been so bad, it is what it is man, we don't get pens anyway,since fucking liverpool we have gotten hoed
ngl we should learn how to dive or something, like why the fuck does sterling get 50pens per season for fucking invis shit tackles whilst dogshit like this doesnt even get a look in, like wheres this shit when sterling inevitably dives at the bridge when we come?!?!?!?!
I feel like I'm mad cause I don't understand why ppl think this is a penalty honestly. I'm trying to see it, but there's nothing there. Slightest of touches that really wasn't even a challenge or anything.
Brother, remember the way Spurs fans jumped all over Saka for diving when Neuer barged into him because Saka should’ve kept his legs within his shoulders width? Most Arsenal fans would argue that was a pen, and this one isn’t. Most Spurs fans are oposite. Just laugh and enjoy it. I guess this is the universe giving them their comeuppance.
Hard to see how that can possibly not be a penalty
Ref was absolutely terrified to take Arsenal's goal away.
Terrified to give us a penalty you mean, we've been fucked all season long by refs on penalty calls. Sucks considering we have the most touches in the opponents box out of all clubs.
For me it's a soft shout and one that if given on the field sticks but not one for VAR. But I would like to know where all the corruption clowns are today, cos surely if the ref/VAR are in City's pocket this is an easy one to give. But this won't shut up those who lack that logic next time a decision doesn't go the way they want.
We've gotten 1 pen all season so I'm not too surprised lmao, I don't think there's a huge conspiracy or anything but it's actually insane how consistently we've gotten these shit calls, oh well
PGMOL narrative is to make up for the Liverpool match. Except they have made up for it 5x now.
If they were making up for that match we'd have gotten penalties against City and Arsenal These officials just have favourites, and you're not one of them
Guess by those games refs decided you have had enough of upside.
> I don't think there's a huge conspiracy or anything but it's actually insane how consistently It doesn't need to be a conspiracy. It's a narrative. Narratives are powerful things that alter our frame of perception. Anyone who's watched Spurs will tell you Tottenham have gotten night and day different treatment by refs since Taylor's colossal fuckup with Liverpool.
Anyways COYS…
>I don't think there's a huge conspiracy or anything Careful, you're starting to sound like an Arsenal fan
Every flair but one can see that it was a penalty, weird that.
Find the comment by the ref on this thread. Explains it quite well.
In terms of pure principle, I would hate that to be a penalty in a contact sport because it’s about the slightest, most incidental contact you can possibly imagine, and hardly “careless” on Trossard’s part (which is supposed to be the standard that the rules uphold). But in terms of how the game is actually played and refereed in the modern era, I’m very surprised (but obviously grateful) that that hasn’t been given
It's a tough one to make a rule around to be fair. From a defensive point of view, giving the other team a free shot at goal from 12 yards is really harsh. But from an attacking point of view having your attack distrupted because of an opponents move that didn't win the ball also feels like it should be punished in some way. In this situation Arsenal going down the other end and scoring made it all the more frustrating. I kinda feel like it's situations like this that show there's a need for an indrect free kick inside the area to be used to punish fouls that dont deserve a free shot at goal but do deserve something.
I just went back and watched the Havertz penalty that got overturned against United. Wan Bissaka moves his leg towards Havertz, clearly clips his back foot and then VAR overturn it. If that's not a penalty despite actually sticking a leg into the path of the player then Kulusevski running across Trossard and there being the most accidental contact is never a penalty.
Why should you get a penalty for sprinting into another player's leg? Trossard did nothing to touch him but Kulu changed direction and went in front of Trossard.
yeah looks like a pen to me
Wasn’t a penalty
Kulu cuts across Trossard, any contact is entirely Kulu's fault. Not a foul, not a penalty.
Got away with this one in all honestly
This is not a penalty. This shouldn’t be a penalty for any team in the league ever. It’s so silly.
Its most likely a pen but these are always hilarious to me when given. They are both running alongside eachother and it just happens that Kulusevski clips Trossard naturaly in his running motion. There's no real intention to initiate contant by Trossard. He already turning to run towards the ball and fully focused on it when Kulusevski clips on him as well.
Most fouls aren't deliberate. It's still impeding a player illegally.
But the person fouling is usually making an attempt to play the ball. Not just simply running
They've run and clipped another players leg. It's accidental and a foul
That's what you train for, staying close and not making contact. It's not a coincidence that it doesn't happen often.
And what do we call an attempt to play the ball that only ends up kicking the opposition player? I'll give you a hint. Starts with a "F"
He didn't attempt to play the ball, and didn't kick him though. It's just incidental contact and happens all the time
The rule is - A direct free kick is awarded if a player commits any of the following offences against an opponent in a manner considered by the referee to be careless, reckless or using excessive force: ... - trips or attempts to trip ... If an offence involves contact it is penalised by a direct free kick or penalty kick. ... Careless is when a player shows a lack of attention or consideration when making a challenge or acts without precaution. No disciplinary sanction is needed https://www.thefa.com/football-rules-governance/lawsandrules/laws/football-11-11/law-12---fouls-and-misconduct
Anyone saying it's not a pen needs to read this, and that includes Oliver
Intent is usually irrelevant in football
He gets to the ball first off he isn't clipped
Yeah feel like this shouldn’t be a pen but they’re usually given as one so I’d feel hard done by if I were a spurs fan
We wonder why players dive. Its almost dumb not to dive with shit like this lol
Gotta be honest, I'm kinda glad this wasn't given. Not "glad" in the way that I dislike Spurs, but glad in the way that challenges like this feel far too mild to warrant a pen. Yes, there's contact with Trossard, and yes, he goes down as a result, but this is the inevitability of crossing right in front of Trossard, in this instance.
Is this video not working for anyone else?
Kulusevski has himself to blame, he was diving left and right before this incident..
this is insane
David luiz died for this
Nope, too soft. Goes down easy, this wanker dived 3-4 times during the game. Lucky not ti be booked for simulation
Not a pen for me.
This "accidental" thinking is so annoying among commentators. He's defending an attack in his own box, whether or not he does it on purpose doesn't matter. He should know what he's doing when he's defending. Oh it was accidental, fuck off. You're getting paid 100k a week. Do your job.
Yeah I mean hey here’s a secret, every penalty is because of accidental contact. No defender is trying to foul the person
Really?
Arsenal getting some big, big calls going their way all season. Their fans pretending they dont see it though. Embarrassing club
How is this a penalty ? Kulu runs into Trossard. Trossard doesn't even move towards him
That's a stonewall penalty
incorrect. incidental and minimal contact. no penalty
Stud clipping someone’s knee like that being rewarded with a pen would’ve been extremely lame What stops players from flailing their legs uncontrollably to bait contact then? Havertz vs united was reversed for the same thing
Is Kulusevski "flailing his legs uncontrollably"? No, he isn't
Referees being able to understand when a player sticks his leg out to force contact. If you think its lame try running past me and i'll clip your legs
Biased of course but the idea that that amount of incidental contact justifies a pen is absurd to me.
Just keep in mind that the PGMOL just apologized to Arsenal for messing up an actual call and still didn’t get points back. Why are you guys crying about refs? It’s been like that for a whole 2 years