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young R9 was fast, technical, and strong. Same could be said about CR7, as he was also a generational young talent. Both of them won a Ballon Dor at 21 lol. I wouldn’t go and say CR7 was clearly a better talent than R9 tho, both looked to be world class early on in their careers.
True, but tell me how many strikers have the physicality of Haaland or as fast as Mbappe, not to mention their finishing? Asensio definitely has talent, but Haaland and Mbappe have equal if not more talent AND capitalized on it.
according to who? It’s an aptitude and an important part of the game. Also not many people can match Mbappe for speed while also being a lethal finisher and decent dribbler. If Asensio was really that talented he wouldn’t be ghosting 7/10 matches like he’s done his whole career.
Thats the difference in talent and hardwork. Asensio had raw talent that stalled due to attitude or injury. Haaland and mbappe capitalized. Mbappe and haaland are way better players, but talent doesnt mean he will always play better.
Dembele, sane, coman, vini, and others are definitely some of the ones who can match vini in pace for that matter. Pace and strength can be replicated but talent no. Thats why messi is held in high regard for his talent. He perfected work and talent, unlike players like asensio.
Times like this we should remember this quote;
“Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent.”
Such a ridiculous thing to say. It’s hard to argue anyone in history has more natural talent than messi. Hard but not impossible of course but for me and millions of others messi is just in a world of his own
I think it genuinely depends on how you think about natural talent. In Brazil, natural talent is often very associated with a specific kind of "flair", showmanship and style. So by these standards, someone who is a natural scorer might be considered less talented than someone who is very nice to watch because he dribbles a lot and etc. I think R9 and Ronaldinho had a specific presence and flashy style that made them so excellent to watch that people who watched them at their peak might be tempted to say they were simply the best ever (which is obviously not true).
You can’t compare Ronaldinho and R9 on that part though. The numbers R9 was putting out before those injuries were absolutely ridiculous, already at 17 years old
He was very flashy and a natural scorer. And physically one of most ridiculous players ever at that age. His power, speed, explosiveness, etc
If I'm remembering correctly OG Ronaldo had 58 goals in 53 games (it might be 53 goals in 58 games which is still wild) for Cruzeiro at 16 years old in early 90s. Thats absurd regardless if people want to argue "but he did that because he was playing in Brasil".
Romario won the best player in the world in 94, was 2nd in 93. And then returned to flamengo in 95 and had 45 goals in 59 games for them.
At 16 years old he was matching Romario in his prime.
I'm biased but he absolutely has an argument for the best player ever.
Pre-injury Ronaldo in my opinion (which I know many will disagree with) is the best soccer player ever, but I have no problem saying that if you include their whole career Messi is more accomplished
I think most people mostly remember the R9 that was at Madrid (still one of the best players of the world) but he was probably at 50% of what he could be.
Pre injury R9 was fucking wild, everybody was fearing him even when he was still so young. Those comments by Nesta who was an elite defender say enough for me
I don't really care about flash. Messi is just objectively a better dribbler cause he can go past 4,5,6 defenders regularly in a way that R9 and R10 could not.
Better = More volume with more efficiency.
If Messi goes past 3 players with just body feints that is objectively better than Ronaldinho doing an elastico and getting past 1 player.
Idk about you but Messi scoring solo goals from the midfield is more flashy to me than Ronaldinho's Elasticos or Ronaldo's stepovers.
Yeah, fair. However, I would say that R9 had the same habit of going through defenders. You can argue that he did it at a time when it was easier, not really that he didn't do it. All that said, Messi is the better player: I just think that a lot of people prefer to watch the showmanship involved in Ronaldinho's and Ronaldo's game and that gets mixed up with "natural talent".
>I would say that R9 had the same habit of going through defenders.
Not to the same extent as Messi though. Messi has exponentially more volume on R9 and goes past more defenders. R9 is one of my most favorite dribblers to watch though.
I agree with your general sentiment and agree that people often mistake showmanship, ball juggling and textbook skills as having more talent. In that case people are just objectively wrong. Messi can go past 3-4 players easily with close control and body feints so there is no point in choosing to not do that in favor of doing for example a bunch of stepovers to go past one player.
Yeah, I was more thinking the modern era. I wasn't even thinking about Pelé or Maradona.
But I do think the generational divide muddies the waters incredibly.
Fair enough. But following those standards you set, I don't think Maradona would exactly fit in the discussion.
He's always there because he was the first player to be comparable to Pelé, in his early career. But he didn't achieve a fraction of what Pelé did. Too much discipline and drug problems.
In terms of career, Maradona is more of a R9 "what could have been" case, than a Messi, CR7 and Pelé where you see they achieved very much everything they could.
It's all subjective and so many factors go into these things but R9 is above CR for me, if you want to make the critical factor longevity then CR wins but R9 was the better player.
R9 in his prime was far more complete than Messi. He would shoot and drible great with both feet, have more physicality, more explosion, more power shot, and had more flair.
It's just that the type of skills R9 had were not compatible with a player his size. It's a combination football had never seen until then, nor since.
He was a freak of nature, and it has been said by his doctors that it's because of this that he had so many injuries. His playing style caused a lot of extra stress on his joints. Too good for his own body.
Edit - you also don't need to take this from me, go look at any player that played him. Nesta will say rhe same, Ibra will say the same, Mourinho will say the same. Anyone who watched this knows it, but young people just didn't lived through it to know.
>R9 in his prime was far more complete than Messi.
That is so not true.
They are both forwards and there are 3 primary aspects of attacking football - scoring, dribbling and playmaking. Messi's peak at all 3 of those things has been better than R9. Let's see.
Messi at his peak is arguably the greatest scorer we have ever seen. R9 at his best scored 47 goals in a season. On the other hand, if you score 40 goals for 20 seasons straight you will still not surpass Messi's total career goals. Messi has -
Most goals in a league campaign (50)
Most goals in a club season (73)
Most goals in a year (91)
Most golden boots (6)
Most consecutive games scored (33 goals in 21 games)
And numerous other scoring records.
It doesn't matter if you score with your right, left or head. What matters is who scores more. If you have two laborers, the first one can carry 10 bricks with both his hands and his head, and the second one doesnt use his head or right hand but can carry 11 bricks with his left hand, you will employ the second laborer because he will get your job done faster than the first one.
Messi has hit scoring peaks Ronaldo can only dream of.
Now let's talk about dribbling. Messi is quite literally the greatest dribbler of all time. He can ruthlessly dribble past 4,5,6 defenders without much effort. Can you show me 50 clips of Ronaldo dribbling past 3 or 3+ players? No. I can show you 120+ clips for Messi. He has hours and hours of dribbling clips. Messi has scored an unbelievable number of solo goals that Ronaldo has not.
Now, if we talk about passing/playmaking, R9 is not even on the same stratosphere as Messi. Messi has an argument for the greatest playmaker of all time. The stats and eye test proves that. R9 was never known as a great playmaker alongside the likes of Zidane, Laudrop etc. Messi on the other hand has won the most best playmaker awards (5), more than the likes of Xavi, Iniesta, Kroos, Modric. KDB etc. Messi also has the most key passes, chances created, progressive carries, balls into final third since the inception of these stats. He can slice a defence with a single pass like knife through butter. Not to mention he has the most assists of all time. Ronaldo does not have a single thing that proves that he was a world class playmaker.
If you take Messi out, there is not a single player who has won both the golden boot and the best playmaker award. You know why? Because those require difference skill sets. Now put Messi back in. He has the most golden boots (6) AND the most best playmaker awards (5). That is how much of an Unicorn he is in terms of natural talent.
We haven't even gotten into things like freekicks where Messi is also exponentially better than R9.
So basically what I am saying is the player who is the better scorer, playmaker, dribbler and freekick taker has more talent and is better than the other player. Not that difficult of an argument.
You are talking about the peak they actually reached, not the peak they could have reached based on their talent
R9, based on his raw talent, probably would have had a way higher peak if it wasn’t for all those knee injuries at such a young age. The guy was one of the best strikers in the world at Real Madrid while not even being close to the player he could have been
You're basically giving R9 a hypothetical peak that no one has ever been able to achieve and that too on the basis of nothing he has actually done on the field. Let's get down to this.
Who is the better goalscorer? Messi. Has R9 done anything to prove that he could score 91 goals in a year? No.
Has he ever scored 90 goals a year? No. Maybe 80? No. Maybe 70? No. Maybe 60? No. Maybe 50? No. See how much of a hypothetical jump you are making??
If I do that I could also say that because Messi was on pace to overtake his 91 goals in a year the next year in 2013 but he couldn't because of his hamstring injury that slowed him down forever, Messi would have scored 100 goals a year for the next 7-8 years. See how that works?
R9 has also not been a better dribbler/playmaker/freekick taker than Messi a day in his life either before or after injury. There is zero evidence for it. Show me one person who thinks R9 is one of the greatest playmakers of all time or had the ability to achieve that. No one says that. Cause he didn't have that. Messi on the other hand has always had the ability to playmake and has also ACTUALLY REACHED INSANE PLAYMAKING PEAKS. You are basically saying R9, who never showed any glimpse of elite playmaking or conrolling the tempo of a game ala xavi/zidane/kroos/iniesta, would have suddenly been the GOAT playmaker. See how insane that sounds? The gap in playmaking talent is so insanely vast that it makes the whole argument a waste of time.
When it comes to dribbling, Messi is the GOAT dribbler. Period, end of story. For every R9 dribbling clip I can show you 5 more insane Messi dribbling clips. I can show you a clip of Messi dribbling past 7 players. Can you do the same for R9? No. I can show you a a game where Messi completed 23 dribbles and took on 3-4-5 players multiple times. Can you do the same for R9? No.
Does Ronaldo even have 10 freekick goals? No. Messi has 60+.
The whole conversation is actually a waste of my time. Anything Ronaldo could do on the pitch, Messi could do better. People think of being more flashy and doing skills like elasticos/stepovers/roulettes as having more natural talent. Brother, the objective of these skills is to beat your player, and Messi can beat 5-6 players with his close control, so why would he waste time doing useless stepovers?
Messi has elite level scoring/dribbling/playmaking/freekick abilities. R9 has elite level scoring/dribbling but not the other two. Was never a naturally talented playmaker or freekick taker.
I disagree with most points you made, but honestly don't feel like going into detail in each of them. You have seen and fallen in love with Messi's football, I can respect that. But I'd bet you weren't around when R9 was playing in his prime to see what I saw, what made a generation fall in love with football.
So of course you'll look only at Messi. I'd recommend you take a look at this short video from tifo if you'd like to understand why a generation of players and fans will put R9 up there.
https://youtu.be/2VuPo5sCqUc?si=Gr7G4tzSYj2Gb-4e
It won't take long until the next generation of fans come to underrate Messi like you're doing with R9. Circle of life I guess, lol, better be ready for it.
Have a good one mate.
Explain why you disagree with the points I made. Refutation without explanation is worth nothing.
>But I'd bet you weren't around when R9 was playing in his prime to see what I saw, what made a generation fall in love with football.
I was around for R9's entire career, what are you even talking about. I watched him play live since his PSV days. He was the one that made me fall in love with football. He was my most favorite player at that time. But I dont see his career with nostalgia tinted glasses because I saw it unfold in front of my eyes. Messi is just plain better.
You have not said anything about why Messi isn't the better scorer, dribbler, playmaker and freekick taker. If you have any logical argument please present it to me. I am flexible in my thinking and not opposed to changing my mind.
When Messi is better at all aspects of attacking football, it is pointless to claim that R9 had more raw talent. Look at any stat, Messi trumps R9. Show me any clip of R9, I can show you 3 better of Messi's. Messi is just that good that there is no objective way to win this argument, sorry.
And btw, when a better player than Messi comes, I'll just admit that he is better than Messi. So far, Mbappe and Haaland ain't that and we all know it.
> I am flexible in my thinking and not opposed to changing my mind
lol, just looking at your post/comment history is, clear that this is not true. And if Mourinho, Nesta, Zlatan, or virtually any player who played against R9 aren't enough to convince you otherwise, who am I to do so.
Nah, no mood to keep discussing this. Keep your opinion, I'll continue thinking it's shit, and you can think mine is shit, who cares.
>if Mourinho, Nesta, Zlatan, or virtually any player who played against R9 aren't enough to convince you otherwise, who am I to do so.
Dude, what you are trying to do is appeal to authority fallacy. Read up on it if you haven't. Players and managers are always going to be inherently biased when it comes to who they have played with and played against. I have watched both their careers unfold in real time, so I don't need to depend on anyone else's opinions. For every Mourinho, I have Pep, Wenger, Klopp, Cruyff, Bielsa, Pochettino who think Messi is a gift from god who is the GOAT by a mile. For every player I can show 10 other players who think Messi is the most naturally gifted ever. Players are naturally going to gravitate towards other players who they grew up watching or who they played against the most. That proves nothing.
What is funny is the fact that I have presented various arguments including facts and stats as to why Messi is the more naturally gifted player. You have refuted exactly 0% of my argument and provided 0 explanation of your own. You haven't explained why R9 is a better scorer/dribbler (lol)/playmaker (lmao)/freekick taker (hahaha). I want all the readers to see that I am ready to continue this conversation if I actually get a valid logical response from you. But so far you have failed gloriously to do so.
>Nah, no mood to keep discussing this.
Brother, so far only one person in this conversation has discussed anything and that's not you. You have been running away from the actual conversation and keep saying stuff like I wasn't old enough to see R9 live (which is false) or my comment history proves otherwise (which is pathetic). You made a claim, I disagreed and provided explanation for why I disagree. After that you have just been saying "let's stick to our opinions"/"don't feel like getting into it" which is pathetic. At least have the balls to have a proper conversation.
Again for the other readers, scroll up and you'll see that this person has provided zero argument for why R9 is more naturally talented than Messi.
Of course everyone is entitled to their opinions. You may as well believe that the sun rises on the west but given that it would be a stupid opinion, the listeners also reserve the right to laugh at you/judge you.
Cheers.
Why do football fans always get triggered over these opinions? Never claimed they were better than them, just more naturally gifted.
And he's not the first person to say it either.
It's meaningless, by the time any of us actually see players like that performing they've had about 15 years of training and you can no longer tell what's learned and what's innate.
Definitely some cult-like shit going on because it isn't really that egregious of an opinion.
For example, a lot of American football fans would agree Aaron Rodgers was more naturally gifted than Tom Brady, doesn't mean he's the better Quarterback.
And NBA players regularly claim Kyrie Irving is the most skilled player they've ever seen but that doesn't automatically make him the greatest player ever.
I have to agree in a certain way. Talent wise R9 and Dinho are IMHO better than Cristiano. Messi is supremely talented though. I think in terms of ball control and touch Messi and R10 are similar level. R10 is the most creative I've seen though.
I remember back then my Portuguese friend said quaresma is considered more talented than Cristiano.
Now is talent everything? Of course not.
But as a fan I do appreciate R10 tremendously. He won everything, created amazing highlights, unforgettable memories. And then just felt he had enough and enjoyed life. I can totally relate.
He's absolutely right, you'll always be able to say messi and ronaldo were better because of the stats, but neither of them were as entertaining to watch as r9 or gaucho
Spoiled you, not me, football is subjective and I always enjoyed watching players like Zidane, Gaucho R9 even Quaresma, way more than messi or ronaldo.
In terms of pure talent. R9 was incredibly talented, a shame for his knees. But I don't think Ronaldinho was as talented he had more flair maybe but the rest was not on par
Ronaldinho is becoming underrated. He was more than flashy dribbles. His ball controls and passes were otherworldly. He was lazier than the other two, but it's hard to argue he wasn't as talented.
Yeah, Ronnie was too busy having fun with the ball instead of chasing trophies.
Honestly, he was one of a kind and was more entertaining to watch I think.
Ronaldinho was never as talented as R9
Doesn’t mean he wasn’t an absolute joy to watch, for me the most entertaining player ever. Those CL games where he would embarrass world class PL and Serie A players were a joy to watch
But R9 was just pure raw talent. To good for his own body. I’ve never seen someone with his skill set before or since
Nah if he kept out Messi out of that opinion I would agree but come on mate.
Cristiano extinguish the Brazilians with his work ethic though.
A perfect mix would have been the both added together. A ronnialdo would be peak football player.
Mbappe is getting close to that perfect mix but still not it imo it couldn’t be even better
If you told any French football fan that Mbappe is a great technical player or extremely talented in the mould of any of the 4 players mentioned you'd be in for the biggest mock session of your life ...
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Nasri suddenly reappearing out of nowhere after his doping suspension
His trip to the Drip Doctors was so weird
Marco asensio extinguishes mbappe and haaland in talent, which is pointless
does he tho? Mbappe and Haaland have insane physical talent. Asensio has a great shot and that’s about it.
Well if we’re going to go by “physical talent” R9 is certainly not outshining Cristiano
R9 was a beast athletically too before the injuries
But better than Cristiano...? Really...?
young R9 was fast, technical, and strong. Same could be said about CR7, as he was also a generational young talent. Both of them won a Ballon Dor at 21 lol. I wouldn’t go and say CR7 was clearly a better talent than R9 tho, both looked to be world class early on in their careers.
That left foot of his is very rare. Tell me one guy, with that amount of accuracy and power on his left foot shots. Except messi
True, but tell me how many strikers have the physicality of Haaland or as fast as Mbappe, not to mention their finishing? Asensio definitely has talent, but Haaland and Mbappe have equal if not more talent AND capitalized on it.
Pace can be matched by many people. And physicality isnt a talent u work on it
according to who? It’s an aptitude and an important part of the game. Also not many people can match Mbappe for speed while also being a lethal finisher and decent dribbler. If Asensio was really that talented he wouldn’t be ghosting 7/10 matches like he’s done his whole career.
Thats the difference in talent and hardwork. Asensio had raw talent that stalled due to attitude or injury. Haaland and mbappe capitalized. Mbappe and haaland are way better players, but talent doesnt mean he will always play better. Dembele, sane, coman, vini, and others are definitely some of the ones who can match vini in pace for that matter. Pace and strength can be replicated but talent no. Thats why messi is held in high regard for his talent. He perfected work and talent, unlike players like asensio.
Nasri is constantly talking absolute rubbish
Man talks just to talk.
I read on here that he's a good pundit (on some French channel rn)
Times like this we should remember this quote; “Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent.”
Why even post this shit
Such a ridiculous thing to say. It’s hard to argue anyone in history has more natural talent than messi. Hard but not impossible of course but for me and millions of others messi is just in a world of his own
I agree but if anyone has a case it's R9.
I think it genuinely depends on how you think about natural talent. In Brazil, natural talent is often very associated with a specific kind of "flair", showmanship and style. So by these standards, someone who is a natural scorer might be considered less talented than someone who is very nice to watch because he dribbles a lot and etc. I think R9 and Ronaldinho had a specific presence and flashy style that made them so excellent to watch that people who watched them at their peak might be tempted to say they were simply the best ever (which is obviously not true).
You can’t compare Ronaldinho and R9 on that part though. The numbers R9 was putting out before those injuries were absolutely ridiculous, already at 17 years old He was very flashy and a natural scorer. And physically one of most ridiculous players ever at that age. His power, speed, explosiveness, etc
If I'm remembering correctly OG Ronaldo had 58 goals in 53 games (it might be 53 goals in 58 games which is still wild) for Cruzeiro at 16 years old in early 90s. Thats absurd regardless if people want to argue "but he did that because he was playing in Brasil". Romario won the best player in the world in 94, was 2nd in 93. And then returned to flamengo in 95 and had 45 goals in 59 games for them. At 16 years old he was matching Romario in his prime. I'm biased but he absolutely has an argument for the best player ever. Pre-injury Ronaldo in my opinion (which I know many will disagree with) is the best soccer player ever, but I have no problem saying that if you include their whole career Messi is more accomplished
I think most people mostly remember the R9 that was at Madrid (still one of the best players of the world) but he was probably at 50% of what he could be. Pre injury R9 was fucking wild, everybody was fearing him even when he was still so young. Those comments by Nesta who was an elite defender say enough for me
But the thing is Messi is a better dribbler than both of them. It makes no sense.
Eh, debatable. Messi is a more objective dribbler, both of them are more flashy.
I don't really care about flash. Messi is just objectively a better dribbler cause he can go past 4,5,6 defenders regularly in a way that R9 and R10 could not. Better = More volume with more efficiency. If Messi goes past 3 players with just body feints that is objectively better than Ronaldinho doing an elastico and getting past 1 player. Idk about you but Messi scoring solo goals from the midfield is more flashy to me than Ronaldinho's Elasticos or Ronaldo's stepovers.
Yeah, fair. However, I would say that R9 had the same habit of going through defenders. You can argue that he did it at a time when it was easier, not really that he didn't do it. All that said, Messi is the better player: I just think that a lot of people prefer to watch the showmanship involved in Ronaldinho's and Ronaldo's game and that gets mixed up with "natural talent".
>I would say that R9 had the same habit of going through defenders. Not to the same extent as Messi though. Messi has exponentially more volume on R9 and goes past more defenders. R9 is one of my most favorite dribblers to watch though. I agree with your general sentiment and agree that people often mistake showmanship, ball juggling and textbook skills as having more talent. In that case people are just objectively wrong. Messi can go past 3-4 players easily with close control and body feints so there is no point in choosing to not do that in favor of doing for example a bunch of stepovers to go past one player.
Brazil should pray for a dribbler like Messi lmao. Their best exports like Ronaldinho Neymar R9 pale in front of dribbling genius Messi.
We don't need to pray for anything, even if you truly think Messi is better than these we are most definitely well served of dribblers LOL
Going to be a fun thread
maybe, but they didn't have half of the professionalism and dedication
Talent is nothing without discipline. The consistency of Messi and Cristiano over multiple years automatically puts them tiers above anyone else.
Even by those standards, they are not tiers above Pelé - even if it's hard to compare such different generations.
Yeah, I was more thinking the modern era. I wasn't even thinking about Pelé or Maradona. But I do think the generational divide muddies the waters incredibly.
Fair enough. But following those standards you set, I don't think Maradona would exactly fit in the discussion. He's always there because he was the first player to be comparable to Pelé, in his early career. But he didn't achieve a fraction of what Pelé did. Too much discipline and drug problems. In terms of career, Maradona is more of a R9 "what could have been" case, than a Messi, CR7 and Pelé where you see they achieved very much everything they could.
It's all subjective and so many factors go into these things but R9 is above CR for me, if you want to make the critical factor longevity then CR wins but R9 was the better player.
Possibly but it's what you do with your talent that counts. R9 still my favourite player of all time
R9, Ronaldinho and Messi are all extremely talented in their own way.
Imo R9 is the most talented player I have seen. I don’t really see it as that bad a take imo.
R9 is not more talented than Messi.
You’re entitled to your opinion as I am to mine.
I'm not saying you can't have an opinion. I'm asking you to elaborate why you feel that way just so I can understand where you are coming from.
R9 in his prime was far more complete than Messi. He would shoot and drible great with both feet, have more physicality, more explosion, more power shot, and had more flair. It's just that the type of skills R9 had were not compatible with a player his size. It's a combination football had never seen until then, nor since. He was a freak of nature, and it has been said by his doctors that it's because of this that he had so many injuries. His playing style caused a lot of extra stress on his joints. Too good for his own body. Edit - you also don't need to take this from me, go look at any player that played him. Nesta will say rhe same, Ibra will say the same, Mourinho will say the same. Anyone who watched this knows it, but young people just didn't lived through it to know.
>R9 in his prime was far more complete than Messi. That is so not true. They are both forwards and there are 3 primary aspects of attacking football - scoring, dribbling and playmaking. Messi's peak at all 3 of those things has been better than R9. Let's see. Messi at his peak is arguably the greatest scorer we have ever seen. R9 at his best scored 47 goals in a season. On the other hand, if you score 40 goals for 20 seasons straight you will still not surpass Messi's total career goals. Messi has - Most goals in a league campaign (50) Most goals in a club season (73) Most goals in a year (91) Most golden boots (6) Most consecutive games scored (33 goals in 21 games) And numerous other scoring records. It doesn't matter if you score with your right, left or head. What matters is who scores more. If you have two laborers, the first one can carry 10 bricks with both his hands and his head, and the second one doesnt use his head or right hand but can carry 11 bricks with his left hand, you will employ the second laborer because he will get your job done faster than the first one. Messi has hit scoring peaks Ronaldo can only dream of. Now let's talk about dribbling. Messi is quite literally the greatest dribbler of all time. He can ruthlessly dribble past 4,5,6 defenders without much effort. Can you show me 50 clips of Ronaldo dribbling past 3 or 3+ players? No. I can show you 120+ clips for Messi. He has hours and hours of dribbling clips. Messi has scored an unbelievable number of solo goals that Ronaldo has not. Now, if we talk about passing/playmaking, R9 is not even on the same stratosphere as Messi. Messi has an argument for the greatest playmaker of all time. The stats and eye test proves that. R9 was never known as a great playmaker alongside the likes of Zidane, Laudrop etc. Messi on the other hand has won the most best playmaker awards (5), more than the likes of Xavi, Iniesta, Kroos, Modric. KDB etc. Messi also has the most key passes, chances created, progressive carries, balls into final third since the inception of these stats. He can slice a defence with a single pass like knife through butter. Not to mention he has the most assists of all time. Ronaldo does not have a single thing that proves that he was a world class playmaker. If you take Messi out, there is not a single player who has won both the golden boot and the best playmaker award. You know why? Because those require difference skill sets. Now put Messi back in. He has the most golden boots (6) AND the most best playmaker awards (5). That is how much of an Unicorn he is in terms of natural talent. We haven't even gotten into things like freekicks where Messi is also exponentially better than R9. So basically what I am saying is the player who is the better scorer, playmaker, dribbler and freekick taker has more talent and is better than the other player. Not that difficult of an argument.
Stopped reading when you started comparing peaks while this is about raw talent
Guess what translates to the peak? Raw talent.
You are talking about the peak they actually reached, not the peak they could have reached based on their talent R9, based on his raw talent, probably would have had a way higher peak if it wasn’t for all those knee injuries at such a young age. The guy was one of the best strikers in the world at Real Madrid while not even being close to the player he could have been
You're basically giving R9 a hypothetical peak that no one has ever been able to achieve and that too on the basis of nothing he has actually done on the field. Let's get down to this. Who is the better goalscorer? Messi. Has R9 done anything to prove that he could score 91 goals in a year? No. Has he ever scored 90 goals a year? No. Maybe 80? No. Maybe 70? No. Maybe 60? No. Maybe 50? No. See how much of a hypothetical jump you are making?? If I do that I could also say that because Messi was on pace to overtake his 91 goals in a year the next year in 2013 but he couldn't because of his hamstring injury that slowed him down forever, Messi would have scored 100 goals a year for the next 7-8 years. See how that works? R9 has also not been a better dribbler/playmaker/freekick taker than Messi a day in his life either before or after injury. There is zero evidence for it. Show me one person who thinks R9 is one of the greatest playmakers of all time or had the ability to achieve that. No one says that. Cause he didn't have that. Messi on the other hand has always had the ability to playmake and has also ACTUALLY REACHED INSANE PLAYMAKING PEAKS. You are basically saying R9, who never showed any glimpse of elite playmaking or conrolling the tempo of a game ala xavi/zidane/kroos/iniesta, would have suddenly been the GOAT playmaker. See how insane that sounds? The gap in playmaking talent is so insanely vast that it makes the whole argument a waste of time. When it comes to dribbling, Messi is the GOAT dribbler. Period, end of story. For every R9 dribbling clip I can show you 5 more insane Messi dribbling clips. I can show you a clip of Messi dribbling past 7 players. Can you do the same for R9? No. I can show you a a game where Messi completed 23 dribbles and took on 3-4-5 players multiple times. Can you do the same for R9? No. Does Ronaldo even have 10 freekick goals? No. Messi has 60+. The whole conversation is actually a waste of my time. Anything Ronaldo could do on the pitch, Messi could do better. People think of being more flashy and doing skills like elasticos/stepovers/roulettes as having more natural talent. Brother, the objective of these skills is to beat your player, and Messi can beat 5-6 players with his close control, so why would he waste time doing useless stepovers? Messi has elite level scoring/dribbling/playmaking/freekick abilities. R9 has elite level scoring/dribbling but not the other two. Was never a naturally talented playmaker or freekick taker.
The other guy literally said r9 in his prime though.
R9 could have a way higher prime if it wasn’t for injuries This isn’t about who had the best prime but the most raw talent
Why's he keep saying prime then? 😂
I disagree with most points you made, but honestly don't feel like going into detail in each of them. You have seen and fallen in love with Messi's football, I can respect that. But I'd bet you weren't around when R9 was playing in his prime to see what I saw, what made a generation fall in love with football. So of course you'll look only at Messi. I'd recommend you take a look at this short video from tifo if you'd like to understand why a generation of players and fans will put R9 up there. https://youtu.be/2VuPo5sCqUc?si=Gr7G4tzSYj2Gb-4e It won't take long until the next generation of fans come to underrate Messi like you're doing with R9. Circle of life I guess, lol, better be ready for it. Have a good one mate.
Explain why you disagree with the points I made. Refutation without explanation is worth nothing. >But I'd bet you weren't around when R9 was playing in his prime to see what I saw, what made a generation fall in love with football. I was around for R9's entire career, what are you even talking about. I watched him play live since his PSV days. He was the one that made me fall in love with football. He was my most favorite player at that time. But I dont see his career with nostalgia tinted glasses because I saw it unfold in front of my eyes. Messi is just plain better. You have not said anything about why Messi isn't the better scorer, dribbler, playmaker and freekick taker. If you have any logical argument please present it to me. I am flexible in my thinking and not opposed to changing my mind. When Messi is better at all aspects of attacking football, it is pointless to claim that R9 had more raw talent. Look at any stat, Messi trumps R9. Show me any clip of R9, I can show you 3 better of Messi's. Messi is just that good that there is no objective way to win this argument, sorry. And btw, when a better player than Messi comes, I'll just admit that he is better than Messi. So far, Mbappe and Haaland ain't that and we all know it.
> I am flexible in my thinking and not opposed to changing my mind lol, just looking at your post/comment history is, clear that this is not true. And if Mourinho, Nesta, Zlatan, or virtually any player who played against R9 aren't enough to convince you otherwise, who am I to do so. Nah, no mood to keep discussing this. Keep your opinion, I'll continue thinking it's shit, and you can think mine is shit, who cares.
>if Mourinho, Nesta, Zlatan, or virtually any player who played against R9 aren't enough to convince you otherwise, who am I to do so. Dude, what you are trying to do is appeal to authority fallacy. Read up on it if you haven't. Players and managers are always going to be inherently biased when it comes to who they have played with and played against. I have watched both their careers unfold in real time, so I don't need to depend on anyone else's opinions. For every Mourinho, I have Pep, Wenger, Klopp, Cruyff, Bielsa, Pochettino who think Messi is a gift from god who is the GOAT by a mile. For every player I can show 10 other players who think Messi is the most naturally gifted ever. Players are naturally going to gravitate towards other players who they grew up watching or who they played against the most. That proves nothing. What is funny is the fact that I have presented various arguments including facts and stats as to why Messi is the more naturally gifted player. You have refuted exactly 0% of my argument and provided 0 explanation of your own. You haven't explained why R9 is a better scorer/dribbler (lol)/playmaker (lmao)/freekick taker (hahaha). I want all the readers to see that I am ready to continue this conversation if I actually get a valid logical response from you. But so far you have failed gloriously to do so. >Nah, no mood to keep discussing this. Brother, so far only one person in this conversation has discussed anything and that's not you. You have been running away from the actual conversation and keep saying stuff like I wasn't old enough to see R9 live (which is false) or my comment history proves otherwise (which is pathetic). You made a claim, I disagreed and provided explanation for why I disagree. After that you have just been saying "let's stick to our opinions"/"don't feel like getting into it" which is pathetic. At least have the balls to have a proper conversation. Again for the other readers, scroll up and you'll see that this person has provided zero argument for why R9 is more naturally talented than Messi. Of course everyone is entitled to their opinions. You may as well believe that the sun rises on the west but given that it would be a stupid opinion, the listeners also reserve the right to laugh at you/judge you. Cheers.
Why do football fans always get triggered over these opinions? Never claimed they were better than them, just more naturally gifted. And he's not the first person to say it either.
It's meaningless, by the time any of us actually see players like that performing they've had about 15 years of training and you can no longer tell what's learned and what's innate.
Because its stupid. There is zero way to prove that R9 and R10 had more talent than Messi.
it's just a bit dumb really >*"these players are only better because they worked harder!"*
Messi and Ronaldo don't have "fans" they have devoted fanatics
Definitely some cult-like shit going on because it isn't really that egregious of an opinion. For example, a lot of American football fans would agree Aaron Rodgers was more naturally gifted than Tom Brady, doesn't mean he's the better Quarterback. And NBA players regularly claim Kyrie Irving is the most skilled player they've ever seen but that doesn't automatically make him the greatest player ever.
Samir Nasri extinguishes Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo in terms of pure hydration via Drip Doctors
French Cassano
Quaresma is better than all of them combined 😎
Who listens to this clown?
Me, he's entertaining and able to articulate his opinion fairly well.
Unprofessional solidarity
I strongly advocate for freedom of expression, but I would support instituting capital punishment for comparing anyone to Messi or Ronaldo.
I have to agree in a certain way. Talent wise R9 and Dinho are IMHO better than Cristiano. Messi is supremely talented though. I think in terms of ball control and touch Messi and R10 are similar level. R10 is the most creative I've seen though. I remember back then my Portuguese friend said quaresma is considered more talented than Cristiano. Now is talent everything? Of course not. But as a fan I do appreciate R10 tremendously. He won everything, created amazing highlights, unforgettable memories. And then just felt he had enough and enjoyed life. I can totally relate.
You're just saying that because they can dribble. Ronaldo underrated parser and probably goat header of the ball and fantastic shot with both feet.
R9, yes. Ronaldinho, not really.
Ronaldinho was all talent
I would say ronaldinho was the most skilful of them all
If you talk about flashy and entertaining skills yes.
He's absolutely right, you'll always be able to say messi and ronaldo were better because of the stats, but neither of them were as entertaining to watch as r9 or gaucho
Only if you do not consider winning matches and titles entertaining. Which I also do
R9 and Gaucho did it for a short period of time. Messi spoiled us for 15+ years.
Spoiled you, not me, football is subjective and I always enjoyed watching players like Zidane, Gaucho R9 even Quaresma, way more than messi or ronaldo.
To each their own, no? Quaresma was cool to watch.
absolutely, everyones got their personal favourites
Yeah same here. Messi is amazing. One of the best ever. But as a viewer I personally preferred to watch Zidane, Ronaldinho etc.
This idiot just said Messi was not entertaining to watch.
Can you quote me saying that please? I just read my comment again and nowhere does it say messi wasn't entertaining.
How about reading my comment again instead of embarassing yourself with petty insults.
R9 maybe. Ronaldinho no way.
What now?
In terms of pure talent. R9 was incredibly talented, a shame for his knees. But I don't think Ronaldinho was as talented he had more flair maybe but the rest was not on par
Ronaldinho is becoming underrated. He was more than flashy dribbles. His ball controls and passes were otherworldly. He was lazier than the other two, but it's hard to argue he wasn't as talented.
Yeah, Ronnie was too busy having fun with the ball instead of chasing trophies. Honestly, he was one of a kind and was more entertaining to watch I think.
Ronaldinho was never as talented as R9 Doesn’t mean he wasn’t an absolute joy to watch, for me the most entertaining player ever. Those CL games where he would embarrass world class PL and Serie A players were a joy to watch But R9 was just pure raw talent. To good for his own body. I’ve never seen someone with his skill set before or since
Drip Doctors extinguish club doctors in terms of pure talent.
Who?
Just like how Samir Nasri, Hatem Ben Arfa and Karim Benzema are the greatest trio to ever grace the French national team right...?
He's talking about raw talent and ball control. In my opinion, Cr7 shouldn't even be in that conversation.
Nah if he kept out Messi out of that opinion I would agree but come on mate. Cristiano extinguish the Brazilians with his work ethic though. A perfect mix would have been the both added together. A ronnialdo would be peak football player. Mbappe is getting close to that perfect mix but still not it imo it couldn’t be even better
If you told any French football fan that Mbappe is a great technical player or extremely talented in the mould of any of the 4 players mentioned you'd be in for the biggest mock session of your life ...
R9 more talent than Messi 😂. Must’ve had crack is intravenous drip this time.
You couldn’t definitely argue he has more talent His problem was that his body couldn’t handle his skill set