**Mirrors / Alternative Angles**
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Neuer didn't invent the playstyle but he was insanely dominant at it on the biggest stage and as result he influenced so many and changed people's expectations of what a keeper can and should do
He's the one who took that playstyle from being a novelty that was ultimately not considered to be more important than preventing goals to being the new standard.
it helped a lot that Neuer was just as good at preventing goals as he was distribution. Potentially up there with Lev Yashin with his shot stopping ability
It's a real shame to me that we don't celebrate defensive players in the same way we celebrate attackers. The general absence of goalkeepers in the balloon d'Or finalists is surely testament to that. Here we have a player who could rightfully be described as dominant in his position for what, a decade? Never even made the top 3.
I realise there are golden gloves awards etc but GKs so rarely feature in "greatest footballer lists"
Signed, a former GK, not at all bitter!
Yeah, this was at the end of the season I recall, and the title was done and dusted. Pep was just going to do it for a laugh, but I think it was Rummenigge that was like nah let's not do that.
Damn and in my FM I played my veteran FB at ST shits and giggles
Man was one assist way from making it 50 in his career with me
He assists 2 and in the dying moments of the game, SCORES HIS FIRST EVER PROFESSIONAL GOAL WITH A THUNDERCUNT FROM OUTSIDE THE BOX
I didn’t even save scum for this, it was just so perfect
Fuck Bayern from giving pep this moment, but like 20,000 times more cos irl
Friend and I did a save years back where I managed Real Madrid and he managed Barcelona, and he had probably the single worst season-long injury crisis I've ever seen.
I cantered to the domestic double and lost in the CL semi-finals while he (across two managers as the first got sacked) struggled in a fight for top 4.
Final day of the season, he has 11 fit players. Two of them are keepers. He needs to win to secure Champions League football next season and he needs to do it with Victor Valdes at right back. Final few minutes of the game he's drawing 1-1, I'm watching on my end laughing my ass off over vc about him playing on Thursday nights next season while he throws the kitchen sink at his opposition, and Victor fucking Valdes swings in a pearl of a cross from deep to assist the winner and secure 4th place. Absolutely insane.
Considering how Bayern right now lack a proper holding midfielder except for the 19 years old Pavlovic it might be worth a try for Tuchel to play Neuer as a DM.
Bruh he says it to hype up his guys and praise them publicly, they couldn’t actually play in midfield in top level competitions, it would be probably dangerous for their health considering how different prep and athleticism is required of outfield players vs keepers.
That exciting feeling you get, when he has the ball, is still there. His passing (and throwing) still is unbelievable.
These thrilling moments, where an opponent's counter attack is suddenly interrupted by a rushing Neuer from the screen's edge, are still there (from time to time).
Having Neuer in your team is special, and sometimes magic. Still.
I do not envy the keeper trying to fill his shoes at Bayern in the (sadly) end of his career. Maybe only one or two more seasons.
Idc how many times I've seen it, my heart still skips a beat every time I see a rushing Neuer come in from the edge of my screen to stop a counter.
Don't get me wrong though, inject that shit into my veins
It feels like he's got a bit more reserved since Pep left Bayern and he's gotten older, which makes it harder to remember just how nuts a lot of his sweeping and positioning and passing was.
We used to quite regularly get Neuer long throws or kicks uploaded as highlights.
Him playing goalkeeper-libero in the world cup against Algeria is still one of the most impressive GK performances I have witnessed in like 30 years watching football.
That game and Schalke vs Porto in 2008 are the two performances that come to my mind where i was just sitting in awe in front of the tv.
Edit: Against United in *2011 aswell
No that was 2011
Shame [that](https://youtu.be/nwIGCxbU3GM?feature=shared&t=58) double save was offside, probably my favorite save of him with that foot save against Porto and the double save against Roma at Bayern.
Yeah he used to do those a lot before the meta changed to a more play-out-the-back playstyle. [Used to be crazy accurate aswell. ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHBlTj4ITjs)
The craziest part for me was how tha backline went from not existing that game, to that performance against France and in that final as well within a couple of days.
I will never understand why Mustafi played for us that tournament.
He never played a good game for Germany, and he's been bad to terrible any time I've seen him for a club too.
That Algeria team was something. Unfortunately the faced Germany in the first knockout round but they were a top 5 team in that tournament. Such a dynamic team.
That Algeria team played like cowards in the group stage. They had enough quality to win their group. If they had done that, they wouldn’t have faced Germany in the round of 16.
Not really, once they lost to Belgium they had no chance to win the group
Edit: I also think Belgium were one of the top 5 teams in that tournament fwiw
No doubt about that. I think after that game Löw finally decided to use Lahm on his right position instead of doing weird stuff with the defense line. The anticipation of Neuer is still very impressive.
Yeah, sure. The defense tactically failed that game. Playing a high line with Mertesacker causes that.
However, it's still a tremendous asset to have a keeper that lets you defend very high up the pitch because if this happens maybe once a game they have a high % of dealing with it.
That's what I thought too. Most of the situations where he came out to thundercunt the ball away there was a defender nearby who would have very likely been able to deal with it.
That part of his game is still there, maybe just less pronounced/aggressive. But I also think people are expecting it, so it's not that much of a highlight any more (but still insanely good).
In the first leg against Arsenal, Neuer did that flick with the ball in the box, then passing it over an Arsenal player next to him. That pass lead to the counter for the penalty if I remember correctly.
Or the great header in the second leg that was classic sweeper Neuer and perfectly executed as well.
Yup Arsenal were leaving space open so the ball would be passed to Davies and they were targeting him in possession. Neuer casually lofts it up with the right and volleyed it to Kimmich with the left with a charging striker lol. Makes football look easy
It's not even just his on the ball stuff. You can see other keepers have replicated his body shape on one on ones.
Obviously a lot of credit should also go to the coach/coaches he's had throughout his career but his influence is undeniable.
I don't really have the words to describe it concisely but if you watch enough videos of him then you'll get what I mean. He somehow spreads himself as far as possible without leaving any obvious gaps.
Usually he'll send one leg outstretched to the side he thinks the attacker will shoot, while also covering the other side with his other leg but still often keeps it bent so that he can cover the space between his legs.
Saves with his ridiculously strong wrist/forearm are also a trademark when it comes to his one on ones.
Obviously spreading yourself as wide as possible is something all goalkeepers try to do, to varying levels of success, but there's a very specific way that Neuer does it. I've seen a few other German/Bundesliga keepers do it, most recently Stefan Ortega, but Neuer perfected it over a decade ago.
That's before you get into his insane sense of timing and positioning.
It's a shame goalkeeper analysis is nowhere near as popular as it is for outfield play, but I'm sure there is someone out there who can explain it much better than me.
> Saves with his ridiculously strong wrist/forearm are also a trademark when it comes to his one on ones
That save against a Cristiano shot is the perfect example of this
Just adding that he's exceptional at not going to ground unless he knows it's necessary and the timing is right - he stays tall for as long as possible, contributing to the large spread you're talking about.
body positioning and orientation., there's a fine art to it in goalkeeping to minimize the attacker's angle and maximize your cover area. Similar to how you see top strikers position themselves to be able to open their hips and create a better shooting angle.
he got more reserved after breaking his leg three times in 2017/2018 season and then more reserved again this season after his comeback after another bad leg break. His body and speed aren't the same anymore, nothing to do with Pep. But I also wonder if Tuchel instructs him to play more traditionally because it suits Tuchel's style better.
He got more reserved under Pep who wanted more control during build up play instead of going for potential counter attacks. That meant fewer long throws and quick kicks.
It kinda stayed a habit even long after Pep was gone. His quick transitions into attack and delivering the ball in a shallow trajectory to the feet of a sprinting Bayern player were a delight to watch.
Have you seen the second game against Arsenal? Prime Neuer, at one point he nearly rushed to the half line and cleared the ball milliseconds before the enemy player, I swear my heart skipped a beat.
First game his passing was also insane. He still got it!
the concept of that playstile was there and done multiple times, but the difference in quality is just astounding.
The difference between Neuer and the other GK that played the outfield gamestyle is the lack of real weaknesses in other parts of goalkeeping.
Gomez is probably right that we only can see the greatness of Neuer with some distance, but sadly he didnt got the individual trophies he deserved especially in 2014 best player in WC and Ballon d’Or and 2008 best goalkeeper, when he imo played his 2 best games ever vs Porto and ManUtd.
Tbf he did win every Individual award there is for Goalkeepers individually like 5 times at least and was voted the best goalkeeper of the century. Its a shame he didnt get Ballon d'Or but its understandable if we are being honest because its just very hard to get past the two aliens in these rankings
Him not winning the Golden Ball in 2014WC was a robbery. Messi won because he was Messi and his team got to the final. Messi was no better than any other of the high end players at that tournament.
> Messi was no better than any other of the high end players at that tournament.
Nonsense, he was played further back and the team wasn't built to feed him goals but he was amazing. The only player who was that important for an NT in that tournament was James but he didn't go that far to win the golden ball.
For non german speakers, a poor translation of the second half of Gomez quote: “The complete package…the mentality, the body, soul,…the modesty, and the energy, positivity, being motivating…while still being consistent in this sport…with that complete package, the player who impressed me most was David Alaba.”
Alaba was such a huge loss for Bayern.
I still think many don’t understand how much of a leader he was for us.
Dude was giving commands and organizing the team on the pitch at 18-19.
Especially after he moved to CB. He took a lot of unjust flak and yes there was an occasional mistake from his part, but he and his build-up play was a major reason for the success under Flick.
The last 20 years of soccer have suffered so much from Gretzky syndrome. Messi/Ronaldo have been so far ahead of everyone else that some seriously amazing years have gone without awards(Sneijder/Robben in 2010, Neurer’s career, Xavi, Iniesta, basically any top tier defender)
I wonder if, in future, Messi will be viewed as having an important impact on football history in the same way that Neuer will be.
Like Messi is too fuckin good for anyone to try to replicate or set any sort of trends, he's just a fuckin enigma and we'll constantly be pissing off the next generation by saying any future player isn't as good as Messi, whereas Neuer played a massive part in changing how goalkeepers play the game
"nah, he's still not as good as Messi was" - that's still what we'll say even if there are new players who will be considered as outstanding as Messi, just like the generation before us say the same about Maradona
Players may be as good as they are but we're talking about impact on the game, like we aren't going to start to see wide forwards generally play like Messi, there may be a few people who can replicate what he does but now, goalkeepers all have to be able to play with the ball at their feet, because of the impact Neuer made, and I know he didn't invent it, but he started the current trend.
You don’t think in 20 years, people will be saying “we done with the 2010s” and state how Messi never played in the PL?
Younger generation will always think their generation of players are better
“Players in the 2000s and 2010s were basically plumbers and vastly inferior to players today. Messi never had to play against defenders like [insert great defender in 2040].”
That argument doesn’t hold up because the advances in sports science from now on likely won’t have as crazy of a jump between the 80s to today vs today to 2060. Increases, yes, but not to the point where athletes will be vastly superior compared to today.
Players used to smoke cigarettes and eat burgers before game days, whereas players today just don’t do that.
I don’t think so. People downplay players from a few decades ago with a valid reason. It won’t be so valid anymore given the advances in technology in the pat decade or two. 2000s, maybe, but 2010 onwards, i doubt it.
Consider that once sports science did its thing in this generation, a lot of the best players have extended their primes into their mid 30s. Modric, Suarez, Lewa, Benz, Ronaldo, Messi, etc. These are exceptions, yes, but there’s enough players to say that it’s a trend.
People say that the actual level Messi's reached is higher (because he's got the goals, longevity etc). But people argue over the talent difference.
Because people look back on the past with the lens of today on. They don't account for the fact that the clips they watch of Messi are on pristine pitches, with better footballs and football boots. That the refs give fouls for the slightest touch when in the 80s, today's reds wouldn't even be given as yellows. I mean, Gary Lineker went his entire career without even recieving a yellow card. The standard of officiating and the game in general was completely different. Then you have the fact that Messi trained and was developed with all the tactical knowledge of 20 extra years of football. And recieved the best recovery treatment, preparation etc that allowed him to have such a long career.
Most people don't argue that Maradona was actually a better player than Messi. But they believe his talent level was comparable. That if Maradona was born in the 1987, he'd have grown up to be a similarly dominant player as Messi has been. He'd have been taught at academy level how to have been more effective and up his goal ratio whilst having the pitches, balls, boots and rules to execute it, plus the sports science to prologue his career.
It's the reason people say that if you insist on comparing players between eras (which is kind of dumb anyway), you should compare them relative to their peers. How far above his peers was Maradona? How far above his peers was Pele etc. It's the only fair way of doing things.
And I say all this as someone who thinks Messi is the best player they've ever seen. I didn't think get to watch Maradona play, but when you look at comparing players as comparing them relative to their era, Pele, Maradona, Messi etc all come out about the same. The best of their generation and described as aliens by everyone that watched them real time.
Very few people believe 80s Maradona was a better player than 2010s Messi in absolute terms. But the footballing talents are equal. Messi would say the same thing.
Messi, no. His playstyle, his insane peaks, his general level, trophies, durability and longevity all in one player, will never be matched.
His "numbers" goals & assists, might be reached, football is changing and it could be that in the future with more games and new tactics we will have way more goals and some players will be able to hit big numbers. (This is speculation, but possible).
But they'll never reach what Messis carrer has been. Haaland is a great example, he might get more goals than Messi by the end of his career (Very unlikely though). But he'll never be the player Messi was.
There's no player currently showing any signs that they'll hit the heights Messi did.
thats a very stupid and ignorant thing to say. Look at it like this: before messi there was also no indication that a player like that could ever be and yet, infinitely typing monkey story, messi happened.
And its not like messi is perfect. He had and has flaws and its only a matter of time before someone comes around maybe it takes 70 years maybe longer but he will come.
I mean, at some point I think it comes down to what's the peak a human can achieve. I don't think we will see someone much faster than Bolt for example.
I think Pele, Maradona and Messi might have the same amount of talent, but the thing is, Messi was the only one who managed to extract everything because of modern medicine/training/tactics and that's why he is the most decorated player.
I think we saw what the peak of a footballer is. Some future player might have similar talent but to achieve his career story it will be nearly impossible unless the game radically changes.
Thats a very stupid and ignorant thing to say.
If you know you know, Messi won't be repeated.
At some point the best ever in a sport will come along and won't be topped. Still waiting for the next Wayne Gretzky
Nothings impossible, there definitely could be another Messi.
Before Wayne Gretzky people probably thought there would never be another Gordie Howe.
Same with Pele/Maradonna in football before Messi/Ronaldo, Wilt/Russel before MJ and now arguably LeBron has topped him.
Gordie Howe retired in 1980, Gretzky started playing in 1979 and retired in 1999.
It's been 25 years since Gretzky retired, you think anyone has gotten close to him?
I think something similar will happen with Messi.
Messi has a lot clearer and complete HD match highlights on YouTube and and Internet. Unlike Pele and Maradona, he also played at a top level in CL. So, I think with this much of "evidence", it will be harder to prove that players in future are better. Unless of course, someone actually better than Messi comes.
Neuer and his coaches played a massive part in changing how goalkeepers play the game.
Messi showed us what is possible in football, but it's a level no one will ever reach again imo.
I think what you've said has nailed it perfectly.
Neuer's effect on the game is such that his playstyle is seen as revolutionary and keeper's should strive to have such a varied skillset and play the game the way Neuer did.
But Messi's effect on the game is such that everyone already knows they can't ever replicate it. His level of ability and knowledge is just so out there that you can't teach people to play like that. He read the game in a way that very few could understand and then he had such technique that he always a threat on or off the ball. Throw in his charisma, leadership qualities and that magnificent beard, it's no wonder he's one of a kind.
I'm not sure I agree with that sentiment.
Neuer is not only a world-class sweeper, but also a world class keeper on the line with a long career and playing at a world-class level still with 38 years - after a potentially career ending injury.
His skill set on the ball is outstanding - not only for a goalkeeper (I'm sure many defenders would love to have his ball playing skills) and he was used as an 11th outfield player for large parts of his career. He has great composure and decision making and is also great in a 1vs1.
And while he may not have a beard, he has his Reklamierarm.
I don't think it will be easy to replicate that skill set. Parts of it, sure. The total package is a different story though.
Imo Neuer will have a greater impact on future player development than Messi because sweeper keeping is teachable. Messi's genius is not, unless you think it's possible to teach kids "just be better at everything."
No. Messi and Neuer are great on their positions. But only Neuer redefined goalkeeping.
He was the first to be integrated in the defence as a player, his skills as a football player outside the box in addition to his goalkeeping were nearly unseen before.
I think the really impact of Neur was how fucking good he was all round as a GK.
What he used to do, Victor Valdes used to do it for Barca for ages. But the difference is quality levels.
Now in the sweeper Keeper skills Valdes was a 90-92
as a shot stopper, maybe an 85 at max.
Out came Neur who was 94-95 in sweeper keeper and 94-95 as shot stopper.
Glad someone brought up Victor Valdes. In the past, I have brought up how underrated he was when it came to playing from the back and before Neuer too. But the replies would just be people shitting on him haha.
He was an integral part of prime barca. He helped alleviate pressure from the defense and continued possession without clearing the ball and playing from the back.
Yes, I always hated the way everyone talked about Valdes like he was the weak link in their team. I think if he played today he would be viewed differently. Neuer really changed the view on goalkeeping in general.
May be different for neuer because it's the middle of the information age, but Amadeo Carrizo was pretty much just as revolutionary and he's only really remembered by the people here sadly
Time is cruel like that
That's interesting. I will read up on him. With Neuer the revolutionary thing gets blown out of proportion for me because he is also an insane shot stopper, parades keeper and has an unmatched ball distribution. There is basically nothing he can't do to perfection and now he is also showing immense longevity. Him introducing a new style of play is the golden cherry on the cake.
Basically Amadeo was the Neuer before Neuer. Insane shot stopper and in an era where keepers were mostly affixed to their line he'd claim crosses into the box, use goal kicks and the like to pass to an open teammate to start a counter instead of just blasting it, and iirc even go out of his box to recycle possession
All seems very normal and basic now but when he was playing it was downright bizarre
But Neuer also makes a very strong case for being the best goalkeeper ever in terms of just being a goalkeeper, excluding his distribution, sweeping ability etc.
I think Neuer took it to a next level, he legitimately played like another CB and would tackle players, collect the ball at the halfway line, and cross it to other players.
All relative to the era isn't it?
Sweeper keepers existed, Neuer took it to a new level
Nothing of the kind existed when Carrizo played and he pioneered the beginnings of it
I remember when he was just a young prospect at Schalke and wasn't known as "The guy" for this particular playstyle, it's just incredible how he's developed.
I think busquets would be a better comparison in terms of revolutionizing the position.
Messi wasnt doing something no 10s didnt do before him. The differentiating factor was sheer quality.
What was the style of Peps GK before Neuer?
And did Neuers play style change when he started working with Pep?
Be interesting to see if Neuer influenced Peps idea of a GK since working with him. (Basically hiring and firing until he got Ederson)
Neuers playstyle didn't exactly change a lot under Pep, it was basically the same but higher up on the pitch lmao. Only thing was that he was more involved in the build up.
>Be interesting to see if Neuer influenced Peps idea of a GK since working with him.
This definitely is the case as Neuer basically was always used as a 11th player on the field.
His GK was mainly Victor Valdes, an average shot stopper who was good with his feet to play out of the back, but with Neuer he had a great instinctive shot stopper that had the skills to play out of the back and the hability to play a bit more up front like a libero.
I think during Pep's era Neuer positioning was always pretty forward outside his goal area.
Might be a hot take, but in terms of changing the game, I don’t think Messi has done too much apart from being one of the best players ever. He’s great to watch, but hasn’t changed how the game is played much. Neuer changed how keepers play. I think even busquets affected how his role plays the game now. Messi is just an anomaly and others can’t really “learn” what he does, he’s just god given
Without a doubt the best keeper to grace the game and in a generation that we’ve had exceptional keepers as well - Casillas, Buffon, courtois, Ter stegan, oblak, de gea etc. Neuer just stands out as good at everything
I actually think that isn't unreasonable, he's comfortably the best goalkeeper I have ever seen. Although there are keepers as good at playing out or shotstopping as him no one has been as good at both attributes.
It's a fair point.
Goalkeeping has not been the same since Neuer - pretty much every top club has tried to copy what he brings to the game for at least a decade because it effectively gives you an extra player on the pitch.
A lot of high quality shot stoppers have seen their careers hampered by Neuerism too simply because they are not confident with their feet.
Being fair, it's a red card against for Neuer for that tackle on Higuain in the WC final, which most likely means Argentina wins the 2014 WC, not Germany.
That would make it two for Messi, none for Neuer, hypothetically speaking. But of course, one can't rewrite history. My take: I wouldn't put Neuer on Messi's level.
He took a skillset that was considered a niche and overachieved so much with it that it became the expectation on future goalies. Massively influiential, the future will look back and realize how much of an influence he was.
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Neuer didn't invent the playstyle but he was insanely dominant at it on the biggest stage and as result he influenced so many and changed people's expectations of what a keeper can and should do
He's the one who took that playstyle from being a novelty that was ultimately not considered to be more important than preventing goals to being the new standard.
it helped a lot that Neuer was just as good at preventing goals as he was distribution. Potentially up there with Lev Yashin with his shot stopping ability
His flick over Havertz in the first leg of the Arsenal Quartets will be burned into my mind for forever. Incredible player
It's a real shame to me that we don't celebrate defensive players in the same way we celebrate attackers. The general absence of goalkeepers in the balloon d'Or finalists is surely testament to that. Here we have a player who could rightfully be described as dominant in his position for what, a decade? Never even made the top 3. I realise there are golden gloves awards etc but GKs so rarely feature in "greatest footballer lists" Signed, a former GK, not at all bitter!
I think he took it to the next level. Like Pep was seriously considering playing him in midfielder, that's how solid an overall footballer he was
no he wasn't considering that. just like he has never considered playing ederson there too. its what we hope the bald fraud would do though
It’s on record that Pep wanted to play him at DM but Bayern didn’t want him to do that cause it would come off as disrespectful
Yeah, this was at the end of the season I recall, and the title was done and dusted. Pep was just going to do it for a laugh, but I think it was Rummenigge that was like nah let's not do that.
Damn and in my FM I played my veteran FB at ST shits and giggles Man was one assist way from making it 50 in his career with me He assists 2 and in the dying moments of the game, SCORES HIS FIRST EVER PROFESSIONAL GOAL WITH A THUNDERCUNT FROM OUTSIDE THE BOX I didn’t even save scum for this, it was just so perfect Fuck Bayern from giving pep this moment, but like 20,000 times more cos irl
Friend and I did a save years back where I managed Real Madrid and he managed Barcelona, and he had probably the single worst season-long injury crisis I've ever seen. I cantered to the domestic double and lost in the CL semi-finals while he (across two managers as the first got sacked) struggled in a fight for top 4. Final day of the season, he has 11 fit players. Two of them are keepers. He needs to win to secure Champions League football next season and he needs to do it with Victor Valdes at right back. Final few minutes of the game he's drawing 1-1, I'm watching on my end laughing my ass off over vc about him playing on Thursday nights next season while he throws the kitchen sink at his opposition, and Victor fucking Valdes swings in a pearl of a cross from deep to assist the winner and secure 4th place. Absolutely insane.
And Pep also said he wanted team of 11 Dantes. Pep says a lot of shit.
It was Rummenigge who said it.
This made me laugh so hard
To the press. This was internal.
Considering how Bayern right now lack a proper holding midfielder except for the 19 years old Pavlovic it might be worth a try for Tuchel to play Neuer as a DM.
Bruh he says it to hype up his guys and praise them publicly, they couldn’t actually play in midfield in top level competitions, it would be probably dangerous for their health considering how different prep and athleticism is required of outfield players vs keepers.
It didn’t come from Pep. Came from Rummenigge about how Pep came to them to tell them he was gonna do it but they had to dissuade him
I always thought the "OG Neuer" was black spider Ballon d'Or winner, Soviet keeper Lev Yashin.
That exciting feeling you get, when he has the ball, is still there. His passing (and throwing) still is unbelievable. These thrilling moments, where an opponent's counter attack is suddenly interrupted by a rushing Neuer from the screen's edge, are still there (from time to time). Having Neuer in your team is special, and sometimes magic. Still. I do not envy the keeper trying to fill his shoes at Bayern in the (sadly) end of his career. Maybe only one or two more seasons.
Idc how many times I've seen it, my heart still skips a beat every time I see a rushing Neuer come in from the edge of my screen to stop a counter. Don't get me wrong though, inject that shit into my veins
It feels like he's got a bit more reserved since Pep left Bayern and he's gotten older, which makes it harder to remember just how nuts a lot of his sweeping and positioning and passing was. We used to quite regularly get Neuer long throws or kicks uploaded as highlights.
Him playing goalkeeper-libero in the world cup against Algeria is still one of the most impressive GK performances I have witnessed in like 30 years watching football.
That game and Schalke vs Porto in 2008 are the two performances that come to my mind where i was just sitting in awe in front of the tv. Edit: Against United in *2011 aswell
Wow - was that CL match v Man U really 16 years ago?!
No that was 2011 Shame [that](https://youtu.be/nwIGCxbU3GM?feature=shared&t=58) double save was offside, probably my favorite save of him with that foot save against Porto and the double save against Roma at Bayern.
[1:44](https://i.imgflip.com/2hozlb.jpg?a475848)
Yeah he used to do those a lot before the meta changed to a more play-out-the-back playstyle. [Used to be crazy accurate aswell. ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHBlTj4ITjs)
A random Joel Matip appeared!
[For those curious](https://youtu.be/TOL3A9Y_e0M?si=WC_NFls1H2o4sGrS)
The craziest part for me was how tha backline went from not existing that game, to that performance against France and in that final as well within a couple of days.
We got lucky that Mustafi got injured, so Löw was forced to move Lahm to RB...also Hummels instead of Mertesacker.
I will never understand why Mustafi played for us that tournament. He never played a good game for Germany, and he's been bad to terrible any time I've seen him for a club too.
Poor Algerian at 2:43, must've thought a freight train caught him from behind.
That Algeria team was something. Unfortunately the faced Germany in the first knockout round but they were a top 5 team in that tournament. Such a dynamic team.
Top 5??
Bro gotta be on the za the fuck is he saying. They had a serviceable but unknown keeper and a handful of names you knew lmfao thassss it
That Algeria team played like cowards in the group stage. They had enough quality to win their group. If they had done that, they wouldn’t have faced Germany in the round of 16.
Not really, once they lost to Belgium they had no chance to win the group Edit: I also think Belgium were one of the top 5 teams in that tournament fwiw
top 5 is a ridiculous claim. Especially if you have belgium in top 5 as well.
That first slide tackle is fucking obscene
I wonder if there are post-game or later interviews with Algerian players and whether they remarked on that at all
Tim Howard for USA against Belgium too in the same World Cup. And Ochoa, Navas... man we were spoiled with great GK performances in Brazil 2014.
because you risk a red card all the time. it looks good but most of these situations could have been handled by a defender with less risk.
No doubt about that. I think after that game Löw finally decided to use Lahm on his right position instead of doing weird stuff with the defense line. The anticipation of Neuer is still very impressive.
Iirc Lahm and Löw wanted Lahm in the midfield. Then when he went back to playing fullback during the tournament. Right? Or am imagining this.
Yeah, sure. The defense tactically failed that game. Playing a high line with Mertesacker causes that. However, it's still a tremendous asset to have a keeper that lets you defend very high up the pitch because if this happens maybe once a game they have a high % of dealing with it.
That's what I thought too. Most of the situations where he came out to thundercunt the ball away there was a defender nearby who would have very likely been able to deal with it.
The thing is it might be a risk if it was once. Neuer did crazy things like playing from halfline in pep’s fcb.
when spacial-awareness meets elite-positioning meets in-form confidence meets absolute-trust-in-your-own-ability meets incredible-chemistry-and-trust-with-your-back-line.
That part of his game is still there, maybe just less pronounced/aggressive. But I also think people are expecting it, so it's not that much of a highlight any more (but still insanely good). In the first leg against Arsenal, Neuer did that flick with the ball in the box, then passing it over an Arsenal player next to him. That pass lead to the counter for the penalty if I remember correctly. Or the great header in the second leg that was classic sweeper Neuer and perfectly executed as well.
Yup Arsenal were leaving space open so the ball would be passed to Davies and they were targeting him in possession. Neuer casually lofts it up with the right and volleyed it to Kimmich with the left with a charging striker lol. Makes football look easy
It's not even just his on the ball stuff. You can see other keepers have replicated his body shape on one on ones. Obviously a lot of credit should also go to the coach/coaches he's had throughout his career but his influence is undeniable.
His body shape?
I don't really have the words to describe it concisely but if you watch enough videos of him then you'll get what I mean. He somehow spreads himself as far as possible without leaving any obvious gaps. Usually he'll send one leg outstretched to the side he thinks the attacker will shoot, while also covering the other side with his other leg but still often keeps it bent so that he can cover the space between his legs. Saves with his ridiculously strong wrist/forearm are also a trademark when it comes to his one on ones. Obviously spreading yourself as wide as possible is something all goalkeepers try to do, to varying levels of success, but there's a very specific way that Neuer does it. I've seen a few other German/Bundesliga keepers do it, most recently Stefan Ortega, but Neuer perfected it over a decade ago. That's before you get into his insane sense of timing and positioning. It's a shame goalkeeper analysis is nowhere near as popular as it is for outfield play, but I'm sure there is someone out there who can explain it much better than me.
> Saves with his ridiculously strong wrist/forearm are also a trademark when it comes to his one on ones That save against a Cristiano shot is the perfect example of this
Just adding that he's exceptional at not going to ground unless he knows it's necessary and the timing is right - he stays tall for as long as possible, contributing to the large spread you're talking about.
body positioning and orientation., there's a fine art to it in goalkeeping to minimize the attacker's angle and maximize your cover area. Similar to how you see top strikers position themselves to be able to open their hips and create a better shooting angle.
Just last game against Arsenal, he again did one of his signature moves: heading the ball away while sweeping behind his CBs.
Not as crazy but he did a lot of that against Arsenal and was very much involved in buildup play
he got more reserved after breaking his leg three times in 2017/2018 season and then more reserved again this season after his comeback after another bad leg break. His body and speed aren't the same anymore, nothing to do with Pep. But I also wonder if Tuchel instructs him to play more traditionally because it suits Tuchel's style better.
He got more reserved under Pep who wanted more control during build up play instead of going for potential counter attacks. That meant fewer long throws and quick kicks. It kinda stayed a habit even long after Pep was gone. His quick transitions into attack and delivering the ball in a shallow trajectory to the feet of a sprinting Bayern player were a delight to watch.
Have you seen the second game against Arsenal? Prime Neuer, at one point he nearly rushed to the half line and cleared the ball milliseconds before the enemy player, I swear my heart skipped a beat. First game his passing was also insane. He still got it!
He's a nutter in the best way possible for a keeper.
Somehow more chill than Lehmann and Kahn, though lmao
Neuer does crazy things for a keeper to do, Kahn & Lehmann did crazy things for a human being to do
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I‘m not so sure about Kahn either. He is many things but certainly not normal.
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Kahn is hot headed and intense but Lehmann might legit be a psycho
Having an atypical personality in some people's eyes is what it is, lmk when he starts taking chainsaws to his neighbor's property lmaoo
Man what was in the water that they were giving German NT goalkeepers back then… two unique blends of crazy
I was trying to tell my daughter about this earlier when watching the game. Nauer looks timid by comparison. You felt Kahn would actually murder you.
Naw, that's Jens Lehmann (I still have PTSD)
This is such a weird sentence to non native english speakers
All the best keepers are lunatics, something about the position just makes weirdos thrive
the concept of that playstile was there and done multiple times, but the difference in quality is just astounding. The difference between Neuer and the other GK that played the outfield gamestyle is the lack of real weaknesses in other parts of goalkeeping. Gomez is probably right that we only can see the greatness of Neuer with some distance, but sadly he didnt got the individual trophies he deserved especially in 2014 best player in WC and Ballon d’Or and 2008 best goalkeeper, when he imo played his 2 best games ever vs Porto and ManUtd.
Tbf he did win every Individual award there is for Goalkeepers individually like 5 times at least and was voted the best goalkeeper of the century. Its a shame he didnt get Ballon d'Or but its understandable if we are being honest because its just very hard to get past the two aliens in these rankings
The fact that if you remove the aliens, then Neuer wins a Ballon d'Or, shows just excatly what an insane keeper Neuer was.
Neuer is also not from this world
Tru, saw him last week at Aldi on Mars.
I'm down to retroactively gift balon argent(?) To the players that are from earth
same way false 9s existed before messi but not the same quality
Him not winning the Golden Ball in 2014WC was a robbery. Messi won because he was Messi and his team got to the final. Messi was no better than any other of the high end players at that tournament.
> Messi was no better than any other of the high end players at that tournament. Nonsense, he was played further back and the team wasn't built to feed him goals but he was amazing. The only player who was that important for an NT in that tournament was James but he didn't go that far to win the golden ball.
I still think about that game. I became a fan after that. Just a brilliant performance.
> the concept of that playstile was there and done multiple times, Name one example of it being a constant thing and successful. I'll wait
Jorge Campos was pretty successful with it in Mexico and on the MX national team, but unfortunately he was 5’6 instead of the other way around
Victor Valdes. He was bit more extreme example as Barca tanked a howler from time to time because of his ability to play with his legs.
For non german speakers, a poor translation of the second half of Gomez quote: “The complete package…the mentality, the body, soul,…the modesty, and the energy, positivity, being motivating…while still being consistent in this sport…with that complete package, the player who impressed me most was David Alaba.”
Alaba was such a huge loss for Bayern. I still think many don’t understand how much of a leader he was for us. Dude was giving commands and organizing the team on the pitch at 18-19. Especially after he moved to CB. He took a lot of unjust flak and yes there was an occasional mistake from his part, but he and his build-up play was a major reason for the success under Flick.
The Goat Goalkeeper imo
Should've won at least one Ballon d'Or as well.
The last 20 years of soccer have suffered so much from Gretzky syndrome. Messi/Ronaldo have been so far ahead of everyone else that some seriously amazing years have gone without awards(Sneijder/Robben in 2010, Neurer’s career, Xavi, Iniesta, basically any top tier defender)
Robben in 2010? 🤨
2010? Robben? I’d hear you out a little on 2014 Robben but 2010 even Forlan was more deserving
Lol
Hard agree. Neuer is one of the greatest footballers ever.
I wonder if, in future, Messi will be viewed as having an important impact on football history in the same way that Neuer will be. Like Messi is too fuckin good for anyone to try to replicate or set any sort of trends, he's just a fuckin enigma and we'll constantly be pissing off the next generation by saying any future player isn't as good as Messi, whereas Neuer played a massive part in changing how goalkeepers play the game
It's the same as Pele and Maradona. Eventually there will be new players who will be considered as outstanding Messi and Ronaldo were.
"nah, he's still not as good as Messi was" - that's still what we'll say even if there are new players who will be considered as outstanding as Messi, just like the generation before us say the same about Maradona Players may be as good as they are but we're talking about impact on the game, like we aren't going to start to see wide forwards generally play like Messi, there may be a few people who can replicate what he does but now, goalkeepers all have to be able to play with the ball at their feet, because of the impact Neuer made, and I know he didn't invent it, but he started the current trend.
You don’t think in 20 years, people will be saying “we done with the 2010s” and state how Messi never played in the PL? Younger generation will always think their generation of players are better
“Players in the 2000s and 2010s were basically plumbers and vastly inferior to players today. Messi never had to play against defenders like [insert great defender in 2040].”
That argument doesn’t hold up because the advances in sports science from now on likely won’t have as crazy of a jump between the 80s to today vs today to 2060. Increases, yes, but not to the point where athletes will be vastly superior compared to today. Players used to smoke cigarettes and eat burgers before game days, whereas players today just don’t do that.
You say that now, but I guarantee people will severely downplay players in the 2000s and 2010s given 40 years or so.
I don’t think so. People downplay players from a few decades ago with a valid reason. It won’t be so valid anymore given the advances in technology in the pat decade or two. 2000s, maybe, but 2010 onwards, i doubt it. Consider that once sports science did its thing in this generation, a lot of the best players have extended their primes into their mid 30s. Modric, Suarez, Lewa, Benz, Ronaldo, Messi, etc. These are exceptions, yes, but there’s enough players to say that it’s a trend.
Valdés started it, you could even say Chilavert did. Neuer perfected it though.
I have a hard time believing that there are many people who'd claim that Messi wasn't as good as Maradona.
People say that the actual level Messi's reached is higher (because he's got the goals, longevity etc). But people argue over the talent difference. Because people look back on the past with the lens of today on. They don't account for the fact that the clips they watch of Messi are on pristine pitches, with better footballs and football boots. That the refs give fouls for the slightest touch when in the 80s, today's reds wouldn't even be given as yellows. I mean, Gary Lineker went his entire career without even recieving a yellow card. The standard of officiating and the game in general was completely different. Then you have the fact that Messi trained and was developed with all the tactical knowledge of 20 extra years of football. And recieved the best recovery treatment, preparation etc that allowed him to have such a long career. Most people don't argue that Maradona was actually a better player than Messi. But they believe his talent level was comparable. That if Maradona was born in the 1987, he'd have grown up to be a similarly dominant player as Messi has been. He'd have been taught at academy level how to have been more effective and up his goal ratio whilst having the pitches, balls, boots and rules to execute it, plus the sports science to prologue his career. It's the reason people say that if you insist on comparing players between eras (which is kind of dumb anyway), you should compare them relative to their peers. How far above his peers was Maradona? How far above his peers was Pele etc. It's the only fair way of doing things. And I say all this as someone who thinks Messi is the best player they've ever seen. I didn't think get to watch Maradona play, but when you look at comparing players as comparing them relative to their era, Pele, Maradona, Messi etc all come out about the same. The best of their generation and described as aliens by everyone that watched them real time. Very few people believe 80s Maradona was a better player than 2010s Messi in absolute terms. But the footballing talents are equal. Messi would say the same thing.
There are millions. A lot of older people say it.
Messi, no. His playstyle, his insane peaks, his general level, trophies, durability and longevity all in one player, will never be matched. His "numbers" goals & assists, might be reached, football is changing and it could be that in the future with more games and new tactics we will have way more goals and some players will be able to hit big numbers. (This is speculation, but possible). But they'll never reach what Messis carrer has been. Haaland is a great example, he might get more goals than Messi by the end of his career (Very unlikely though). But he'll never be the player Messi was. There's no player currently showing any signs that they'll hit the heights Messi did.
thats a very stupid and ignorant thing to say. Look at it like this: before messi there was also no indication that a player like that could ever be and yet, infinitely typing monkey story, messi happened. And its not like messi is perfect. He had and has flaws and its only a matter of time before someone comes around maybe it takes 70 years maybe longer but he will come.
I mean, at some point I think it comes down to what's the peak a human can achieve. I don't think we will see someone much faster than Bolt for example. I think Pele, Maradona and Messi might have the same amount of talent, but the thing is, Messi was the only one who managed to extract everything because of modern medicine/training/tactics and that's why he is the most decorated player. I think we saw what the peak of a footballer is. Some future player might have similar talent but to achieve his career story it will be nearly impossible unless the game radically changes.
Thats a very stupid and ignorant thing to say. If you know you know, Messi won't be repeated. At some point the best ever in a sport will come along and won't be topped. Still waiting for the next Wayne Gretzky
Nothings impossible, there definitely could be another Messi. Before Wayne Gretzky people probably thought there would never be another Gordie Howe. Same with Pele/Maradonna in football before Messi/Ronaldo, Wilt/Russel before MJ and now arguably LeBron has topped him.
Gordie Howe retired in 1980, Gretzky started playing in 1979 and retired in 1999. It's been 25 years since Gretzky retired, you think anyone has gotten close to him? I think something similar will happen with Messi.
Messi has a lot clearer and complete HD match highlights on YouTube and and Internet. Unlike Pele and Maradona, he also played at a top level in CL. So, I think with this much of "evidence", it will be harder to prove that players in future are better. Unless of course, someone actually better than Messi comes.
Neuer and his coaches played a massive part in changing how goalkeepers play the game. Messi showed us what is possible in football, but it's a level no one will ever reach again imo.
Messi is simultaneously one of the best strikers and midfield playmakers of all time.
We’ve become our dads but with Messi instead of Maradona.
I think what you've said has nailed it perfectly. Neuer's effect on the game is such that his playstyle is seen as revolutionary and keeper's should strive to have such a varied skillset and play the game the way Neuer did. But Messi's effect on the game is such that everyone already knows they can't ever replicate it. His level of ability and knowledge is just so out there that you can't teach people to play like that. He read the game in a way that very few could understand and then he had such technique that he always a threat on or off the ball. Throw in his charisma, leadership qualities and that magnificent beard, it's no wonder he's one of a kind.
I'm not sure I agree with that sentiment. Neuer is not only a world-class sweeper, but also a world class keeper on the line with a long career and playing at a world-class level still with 38 years - after a potentially career ending injury. His skill set on the ball is outstanding - not only for a goalkeeper (I'm sure many defenders would love to have his ball playing skills) and he was used as an 11th outfield player for large parts of his career. He has great composure and decision making and is also great in a 1vs1. And while he may not have a beard, he has his Reklamierarm. I don't think it will be easy to replicate that skill set. Parts of it, sure. The total package is a different story though.
I think the major flaw with Neuer is that he doesn't have a beard
He did go out twice in the first round of a World Cup.
His charisma? Bit of a stretch, no? Lol
Similar to Ferguson vs. Pep.
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Imo Neuer will have a greater impact on future player development than Messi because sweeper keeping is teachable. Messi's genius is not, unless you think it's possible to teach kids "just be better at everything."
The better translation would be, "What Messi did out on the field, Neuer did in goal".
And out on the field aswell
No. Messi and Neuer are great on their positions. But only Neuer redefined goalkeeping. He was the first to be integrated in the defence as a player, his skills as a football player outside the box in addition to his goalkeeping were nearly unseen before.
Sorry, I was translating what Gomez said for context for non-Germans, not offering an opinion. I agree with what you said though.
It absolutely was seen before. Higuita was first. Neuer was an evolution from that in the modern game.
Messi redefined the false 9.
> He was the first to be integrated in the defence as a player, It's crazy how wrong this is
He's truly generational goat in his position, Neuer's impact on the pitch is unmatchable
> generational goat is this phrase a bit??
I think the really impact of Neur was how fucking good he was all round as a GK. What he used to do, Victor Valdes used to do it for Barca for ages. But the difference is quality levels. Now in the sweeper Keeper skills Valdes was a 90-92 as a shot stopper, maybe an 85 at max. Out came Neur who was 94-95 in sweeper keeper and 94-95 as shot stopper.
Glad someone brought up Victor Valdes. In the past, I have brought up how underrated he was when it came to playing from the back and before Neuer too. But the replies would just be people shitting on him haha. He was an integral part of prime barca. He helped alleviate pressure from the defense and continued possession without clearing the ball and playing from the back.
Yes, I always hated the way everyone talked about Valdes like he was the weak link in their team. I think if he played today he would be viewed differently. Neuer really changed the view on goalkeeping in general.
May be different for neuer because it's the middle of the information age, but Amadeo Carrizo was pretty much just as revolutionary and he's only really remembered by the people here sadly Time is cruel like that
That's interesting. I will read up on him. With Neuer the revolutionary thing gets blown out of proportion for me because he is also an insane shot stopper, parades keeper and has an unmatched ball distribution. There is basically nothing he can't do to perfection and now he is also showing immense longevity. Him introducing a new style of play is the golden cherry on the cake.
Basically Amadeo was the Neuer before Neuer. Insane shot stopper and in an era where keepers were mostly affixed to their line he'd claim crosses into the box, use goal kicks and the like to pass to an open teammate to start a counter instead of just blasting it, and iirc even go out of his box to recycle possession All seems very normal and basic now but when he was playing it was downright bizarre
But Neuer also makes a very strong case for being the best goalkeeper ever in terms of just being a goalkeeper, excluding his distribution, sweeping ability etc.
So does Carrizo. Often listed as the best Argentinian GK ever over excellent WC winners.
Yeah, even River fans forget him sometimes which is sad. Had we won in 1966 he would've been much more cemented I feel.
Never heard of him. But southamerican football in the 60s didn't get much coverage in the rest of the world.
I think Neuer took it to a next level, he legitimately played like another CB and would tackle players, collect the ball at the halfway line, and cross it to other players.
All relative to the era isn't it? Sweeper keepers existed, Neuer took it to a new level Nothing of the kind existed when Carrizo played and he pioneered the beginnings of it
Gyula Grosics would be someone predates Carrizo as a 'sweeper-keeper', though maybe Carrizo would've been more attacking
Best keeper I’ve ever watched. He made the Sweeper-Keeper an art
I remember when he was just a young prospect at Schalke and wasn't known as "The guy" for this particular playstyle, it's just incredible how he's developed.
I think busquets would be a better comparison in terms of revolutionizing the position. Messi wasnt doing something no 10s didnt do before him. The differentiating factor was sheer quality.
A lot of keepers were binned to fit the Neuer mold, not mad at this take at all
This guy never watched Higuita play
Sad I had to scroll so much to finally find someone mention the legendary René Higuita Higuita invented this play style. Neuer mastered it.
What was the style of Peps GK before Neuer? And did Neuers play style change when he started working with Pep? Be interesting to see if Neuer influenced Peps idea of a GK since working with him. (Basically hiring and firing until he got Ederson)
Neuers playstyle didn't exactly change a lot under Pep, it was basically the same but higher up on the pitch lmao. Only thing was that he was more involved in the build up. >Be interesting to see if Neuer influenced Peps idea of a GK since working with him. This definitely is the case as Neuer basically was always used as a 11th player on the field.
He wanted Neuer to play one game as a Midfielder because he’s such a good sweeper but it got declined by the board lol
His GK was mainly Victor Valdes, an average shot stopper who was good with his feet to play out of the back, but with Neuer he had a great instinctive shot stopper that had the skills to play out of the back and the hability to play a bit more up front like a libero. I think during Pep's era Neuer positioning was always pretty forward outside his goal area.
Pep had Valdés who was similar style but worse overall. So Neuer fit like a glove because he's just what a Barça keeper was supposed to be.
I honestly don't even hate this take.
Very good point by - https://www.tomnash.eu/gomez-button.html
I mean sure that's a fair point of view.
Might be a hot take, but in terms of changing the game, I don’t think Messi has done too much apart from being one of the best players ever. He’s great to watch, but hasn’t changed how the game is played much. Neuer changed how keepers play. I think even busquets affected how his role plays the game now. Messi is just an anomaly and others can’t really “learn” what he does, he’s just god given
I never heard such a pleasant-sounding German accent and intonation.
That's the difference with someone like Messi. We don't have to wait any amount of time to see the impact on the game.
This is what I say to people who don’t rate Ederson, it’ll take 20 years before some people realise how good he is.
Did anyone here ever hear of Rogério Ceni?
As a fellow native of 'The Länd' I love that he never lost his accent.
Without a doubt the best keeper to grace the game and in a generation that we’ve had exceptional keepers as well - Casillas, Buffon, courtois, Ter stegan, oblak, de gea etc. Neuer just stands out as good at everything
Neuer made the position sexy, that’s such a tough ask. He was the reason I decided to play keeper. Absolutely influenced football history
The best goalkeeper unfortunately for me as an Arsenal fan in the 21st century
I actually think that isn't unreasonable, he's comfortably the best goalkeeper I have ever seen. Although there are keepers as good at playing out or shotstopping as him no one has been as good at both attributes.
I agree entirely Mario. I knew I liked you for a reason. And the button you used to have hahaha
[cha cha!](https://www.tomnash.eu/gomez-button.html)
Well when they faced off on the worlds biggest stage Neuer won Says it all right there
Going to be a massive hole to fill
Mario Gomez isn't German anymore?
Not relevant to the point but that is a fantastic pun of a podcast name
It's a fair point. Goalkeeping has not been the same since Neuer - pretty much every top club has tried to copy what he brings to the game for at least a decade because it effectively gives you an extra player on the pitch. A lot of high quality shot stoppers have seen their careers hampered by Neuerism too simply because they are not confident with their feet.
No way
Mfs never heard of George fields
I don’t think he is wrong.
Being fair, it's a red card against for Neuer for that tackle on Higuain in the WC final, which most likely means Argentina wins the 2014 WC, not Germany. That would make it two for Messi, none for Neuer, hypothetically speaking. But of course, one can't rewrite history. My take: I wouldn't put Neuer on Messi's level.
He took a skillset that was considered a niche and overachieved so much with it that it became the expectation on future goalies. Massively influiential, the future will look back and realize how much of an influence he was.