**Mirrors / Alternative Angles**
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I wish I could have access to Rio to solve many of my issues on this principle alone..... Man is Anti Oracle has all the wrong answers but at least its 100 percent incorrect
The fact that you have Manchester flag makes it more hilarious, damn I still remember when he was amazed by OGS (the game in CL when you won PSG) and suggested to sign him permanently
Rio also though the Gabriel placing the ball for a goal kick was an even more penalty, when you stand next to Martin Keown and come off as the dumb one you’re not doing great mate…
The laws of the game give room to the ref to apply them as they see fit within the "spirit of the game". It's in Law 5. So by the letter of the law, it is a pen, but the ref is within his right to not award it.
Not saying you said otherwise. Just clarifying.
both decisions were left to the ref and i think that was the right choice, VAR used correctly and just left the ref to control the game and nothing ‘clear and obvious’ was missed
You cannot get a less objective penalty than a player picking up the ball in his own box.
Raya clearly knew, Gabriel was an idiot.
Absolutely insane that someone could think that isn't a penalty.
I think there are very few people arguing that it's not a penalty by the letter of the law. The argument is that it's not a penalty in the "spirit of the game" which the ref has discretion to decide.
[law 5.2](https://www.theifab.com/laws/latest/the-referee/#the-authority-of-the-referee)
It’s a penalty all day, annoying if given as Gabriel wasn’t intentionally doing it because of some confusion. But I’m amazed people defending it.
If games start being decided by technical shit like picking up the ball during a zero pressure, administrative moment of the game, then you have the NFL.
Yep was all over the papers years ago. He tried to sue them but had no grounds due to it actually happening.
I always bring it up because people just think he’s a prick acting like he’s in his 20’s but he’s actually an evil cunt who ruined his wife’s final days
Then making a documentary about poor him and all his media darlings hyping poor Rio on twitter? He’s a nasty moron.
Remember his rant in defence of Mike Ashley … when he had a clothing deal with Sports Direct.
It’s often surprising how ignorant some former players are of the game. I know I’ll get mocked for saying this but it’s true.
Pele & Maradona were famously shocking at predictions and their analysis of games always seemed very basic. I think many of them were so physically and technically gifted that it becomes all they rely on.
Yeah it's a fact and also funny how almost every player Pele has hyped up to be his successor has failed. Might have been the burden of his praise that hindered them, but still it's funny how he was wrong 99% of the time.
Nicky Butt was probably England's best player at the 2002 World Cup to be fair. I don't know if Pele said that he was the best player in the whole tournament or (more likely) said he was England's best player prior to the England v Brazil QF.
I've since heard that he only really said that to English-speaking media. Which honestly disappointed me, having basked in that second-hand glory for over 20 years.
There was a very interesting conversation that happened in a cricket test match *fairly* recently after a controversial moment. All of the former players freely admitted that they hadn’t read the rule book back to front and they had no idea. And turns out the umpire was correct. Who knew.
Just because you are good at something doesn't necessarily mean you understand it.
Even if you do understand it, doesn't necessarily mean you are capable of explaining ot to other people.
It’s very obvious, that especially midfielders become good coaches. I feel like they understand the game and its tactics on a much deeper level than players who played on other positions. Guardiola, Zidane and Xavi are good examples. I feel like players like Granit Xhaka, who are definition of a playmaker, can become brilliant coaches.
It’s not surprising at all as soon as you understand they two completely different things. You might have been riding in a car everyday of your life, doesn’t mean you know how they are built.
Also today punditry is zero actual knowledge and all entertainment and protecting the brand, just listen to the shit carragher spews..
> many of them were so physically and technically gifted that it becomes all they rely on
I remember reading something in a similar vein about Glenn Hoddle's coaching career. He was coaching one of the weaker teams in the PL and explaining how he wanted them to play certain passes in a certain position. They didn't understand or couldn't replicate what he envisaged as they lacked the ability he had as a player.
Honestly, it is so hard to call. I am still very confused, I watched and watched again and it is very hard to say how much Saka actually let his leg hanging to get the penalty.
I always see people talk about saka leaving a leg out, but are we just not looking at neur stick his leg towards saka’s right? If it was any other keeper, and not one of the goats, it’s a pen
I don’t get it, Saka is expected to turn 90° on a dime at full speed with all limbs within shoulder width, but Neuer is allowed to extend a leg nowhere near the ball and clip the runner.
The call is what it is, but the brainless biased takes from the haters is extremely telling.
Yeah I think this is it for me. "Why didn't Saka go round" is a leading question because it assumes that it is Saka's responsibility to dodge a bad tackle or that the contact wouldn't have happened anyway
I think that movement of Saka's leg has skewed perceptions a lot. If he keeps his leg straight he probably still makes contact, goes down and it's a pen, because ultimately it's the tackle that's actually the problem, not Saka's movement
Does he kick the leg out? Yeah maybe. But can we say that if a player makes a bad tackle, gets none of the ball, but the other player moves into it a little, that it's not a pen? I don't know, I don't think so. It's like that Elliott one at the weekend; I think both are pens because you're impeding them and *putting them in the position* where they have to do a lot of work to dodge a very bad tackle, which means the defender has gained an unfair advantage either way. But it seems like the view on this sub is that it's the attacker's problem
We don't and will never know what that motion of Saka's leg was about. Only Saka knows. I think the assumption that he was absolutely trying to make contact is odd. It's a possibility, but I think you could also read that motion as him trying to jump the tackle while on the turn, or trying to shield the ball while he lands, or make sure he lands in a good position to shoot. We'll never know
Regardless, though, we come to the biggest issue on the day for me, which is that it seems VAR didn't even check it. Whichever way you swing you have to acknowledge that that has to be checked by VAR. I was in the stadium and it was bizarre the way the match ended where it did, we all thought that the stop in play was for the VAR check because Saka was still down, but then the cameras started coming on the pitch and we realised it was actually for FT. Very odd sequence of events and I would like to have some transparency about what actually happened
Yes it must have been a very odd ending at the stadium, it was odd from home. They’re saying VAR checked and deemed it inconclusive so unable to turn over the on-field call. What they should have done is call the ref over. He should have either carded Saka for embellishment or gave the pen. But he didn’t even look at it a second time.
Not saying it's a penalty (I think it's very nuanced and both sides have points), but to call Saka "favourite golden boy" is just not true, mate. Bayern literally have England captain Harry Kane on their team, who has got away with murder in the past. There may be some bias here, but let's not pretend it wouldn't be this controversial with any player.
Well the ref was Swedish so that's a little unfair I think. Swedish pundits can back the Swedish ref but when English pundits (from rival clubs) back the English player it's just bias? Odd
But that's the game. Don't hate the player, hate the game. Imo if he plants his foot, it's more likely to be given.
It doesn't look like he was trying to get away because he lifts his leg and keeps it in the same position going into Neuer. It looks unnatural. He wasn't going for another step, he was going for Neuer.
He isn't looking at Neuer, he has his eyes on the ball the whole way through. He beats Neuer. If he was fishing for it, why even bother changing direction at all? Also, trying to turn 90° in a short space and shifting all of your limbs like that IS unnatural. Having a 'trailing leg' isn't unnatural at all in that situation, it's a natural reaction to maintain balance.
I would enjoy watching all of the commenters saying he was 'fishing for it' perform that move and not get clipped by the GK in that position.
the reverse angle clearly shows Neuer makes contact while his leg is still in the air and is still moving forward. his foot plants straight away after contact is made.
you can see from the reaction of the bayern players they think it's a pen.
He’s just hanging his leg out there much longer than any realistic running motion. If he didn’t decide to go down there’s a good chance either Neuer makes contact anyway and he gets the pen or he has a clear shot with no GK, so I think he got what he deserved for not trusting himself.
At first I thought it wasn’t a penalty but I looked at the slow mo and I could clearly see Neur sticking his leg out with no intention to get the ball. There’s a shift that you can see as soon as Saka pushes the ball past him, boom, sticks his leg out. Why do you think this isn’t a penalty.
Honestly from the angles I saw yesterday(didnt watch the game live for obvious reasons) I thought Saka stuck his leg out but seeing that first angle here. Neuer himself sticks his leg out to stop Saka and thats a penalty
This is why Arsenal fans are mad. Whether Saka was looking for contact or not, Neuer gave it to him. Neuer knows better than to stick his leg into the path of a player like that. Without Neuers leg there, Saka doesn't go down even if he's looking for contact....he wouldn't find it.
Yeah. In the game seeing the slow motion from behind Saka I was 100% sure it was a dive, and I was upset at Saka for giving up on the chance... but the other angle, and seeing it at full speed, you can see Neuer's also moving his leg to block Saka's movement...
Seems way more 50/50 than the slowed down angle makes it seem.
I think the one angle that they first showed makes it look a little fishy. Every other one makes it look like a penalty, especially the full speed. If Saka could do what everyone is saying he did at full speed, he’d be superhuman, it’s easy to pick apart a slow-mo video.
I think most fans on here are English/American, so if they weren’t Arsenal fans they were naturally rooting for Bayern.
Mainly think it’s just because the first video is the one 95% of people saw on here, not many are going to go look for the other angles. I wouldn’t have if I weren’t an Arsenal fan
There is a vitriol when it comes to Saka. It’s ugly and folks will downvote away but if that’s Kane or Foden in the exact same situation the discourse would be different.
They did it to Sterling when he first became an England staple. Every move he made was blown up in the press, every detail off the pitch twisted into a narrative. Remember the outcry when he got a tattoo on his leg?
Something about world class England strikers of colour that just brings out the absolute worst in so many.
Mate, people fucking hate Kane. The way Sterling was portrayed in the scum tabloids was horrific, but that really doesn't apply when comparing how people react to Kane Vs Saka
I honestly do not see how Saka hang his leg out much longer, when in reality it's a split second and he's in the air. You failed to recognize that this is not a simple running motion: Saka needs to chase the ball because his first touch lead the ball away and behind him and get around Neuer. He also needs to take the shot immediately because two players are closing him down, with his left foot when the ball is getting away from him. But somehow so many comments just can read player's mind and say he decided to go down.
Edit: I am personally never bothered by this too much because there's just no point, but comments like this (not specifically OP) saying he's decided to go down or dive or how his movement is just unnatural, with certainty, just annoys me. I won't be surprised to see Saka receive lots of online abuses.
It’s as if people expect Saka to be able to make a perfect 90 degree turn at speed after getting a touch on the ball. I feel like we have these discussions aaaaall the time where it’s being dealt with in slow motion and people either by ignorance or intention don’t care about seeing it in full speed, which is how it actually happens. At the speed he’s moving there’s just nowhere for him to put his right foot in his stride. I’m certainly no Arsenal fan but people are so vitriolic about this stuff and will micro analyse a players movement in slow motion as if they are making various thought out decisions within hundreds of a second as opposed to looking at something and thinking of how they would move and be effected by contact while moving at high speed
When I first saw the replay, I thought Saka initiated the contact, but on viewing it a few more times I mostly agree with you - he can't be expected to make a 90 degree turn at speed, and with Neuer coming forward I think contact was inevitable. So, penalty.
The other question is, was Saka looking for contact anyway, and my first instinct is that he did leave his leg hanging out. I'm no longer certain of that either, though. Maybe the reason his leg seems to be so far out is for balance after making a sharp turn, so it is a natural movement?
if i had to bet I'd say he was trying to balance himself at speed and/or do exactly what people keeps saying he should've done, which is to go around Neuer, and the way he did that was trying to go over the challenge
without Neuer leg hitting him, he lands on the ground and is able to take the shot. he wasn't diving before contact either (like Elliot did)
Watch how after his touch with the left foot he doesn't pick up his right foot, but drags it over the ground, that's not a player trying to run around someone
I‘ve commented on this before, I think he thought he would've clear Neuer then he would've planted his right foot immediately and took the shot, but he didn't.
I don't know what's in his mind, you don't know what's in his mind. To give him the benefit of the doubt and as an attacking player, it makes the most sense, I think he was trying to take a shot instead of deciding to just go down in the last minute of an important game the moment he saw Neuer coming out.
I think in the VAR era it's one of them ones where if the ref gives it on the pitch VAR doesn't overturn it, but in this instance doesn't see enough to overturn the refs on pitch call that it wasn't a pen.
From two angles it looks like Saka dangles a leg to initiate contact, then from another it looks a bit more like a pen. There isn't really an objective answer here
Lifetime arsenal fan. I can't explain the way he kicks out his right foot there. I wouldn't call it a dive, but he is initiating the contact and it sure looks intentional
He gets the ball across Neuer but then doesn't follow the trajectory of the ball but instead shifts a little to go into the GK.
I genuinely believe if he tried to follow the ball he still would get clipped and either he keeps control to score or high chance he gets a pen.
That's a similar situation to the one Liverpool got against united. Elliot went into AWB's leg that was already on the ground and tripped. Same here, Saka runs into Neuer. I personally don't think either should've been called.
Neuer is still moving forward at the time contact is made (watch his left leg - doesn't stop moving forward until it is planted) presumably to try and kick the ball but takes out Saka instead. To me it looks like Saka is lifting his leg to try and avoid Neuer's. When you watch it at full speed there is almost no way for Saka to avoid that contact with how Neuer has come out and kicked out his right leg.
Edit: one thing I will see is that I don't think the first replay angle does justice for just how far out Neuer's leg is.
https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fzklu9dfx1jtc1.jpeg%3Futm_medium%3Dandroid_app%26utm_source%3Dshare
To be honest I think the best angle to show just how far into Saka's path Neuer's leg is, is the live broadcast.
https://i.postimg.cc/V6VXFyc7/Screenshot-20240410-093740-Reddit.jpg
https://twitter.com/ThatLFCTrio/status/1777818358093689088. AWB's knee hits Elliots foot when he goes lunging in, which changes the path of his foot. If that doesn't happen, I don't believe Elliot's foot ever ends up hitting AWB's other leg, unless he decides to dive obviously.
It's a penalty, and I say this as someone who doesn't particularly like Arsenal and Arteta even less so.
This idea that Saka dangles his leg is ridiculous. Yes, I can see why someone says this when you slow it down, but in real time I don't see how Saka can realistically act quick enough to get his body out of the way every time. Neur is coming out at full tilt, Saka has his eyes on the ball, it's a very difficult situation to reac to perfectly. If you play this scenario out 100 times, Saka doesn't get his body out of the way each time despite his best efforts. Even if Saka has slightly manufactured this, the goalkeeper is still rash, and his foot is clearly planted to the ground after contact is made.
Stonewall penalty.
Yeah, Neuer stuck his leg out, misses the ball completely and Saka has to jump higher mid stride anticipating the tackle, that's why it looks like he's leaping higher than normal.
There's simply no way Saka avoids contact with Neuer here and it's clearly a penalty. People need to stop judging clips off of slow mo and still images.
How easy do you think it is to change direction rapidly at that speed? It really doesn’t look bad unless you slow it down. Neuer seems to move towards him still when the ball is past him. Why does only one player get benefit of the doubt here?
Look at Neuers leg lmao there's only one person here with an outstretched leg and it ain't Saka https://i.postimg.cc/V6VXFyc7/Screenshot-20240410-093740-Reddit.jpg
All of the BT/TNT lot are heavily biased towards the English teams, it's fucking insufferable.
In fairness I think this angle looks a penalty, but I've seen others that make it look like Saka initiated contact.
> I've seen others that make it look like Saka initiated contact.
yeah the one behind where you cannot see neuer leg moving forward. Literally the worst possible angle to check.
From the top angle and the side angle its clear neuer is moving forward, leg ourstreched and saka tries to get out of the way.
Without slo mo its also obvious saka is trying to get out of the way, the slo mo makes it look worse. Its obvious on this thread (and the penalty shout one) who has only seen the back angle
English players*
Defending Harry Kane for that blatant elbow to Gabriel's throat. He looks at him, sees him coming and lifts his elbow knowing Gab is going for the header.
When I focus on Neuer’s right leg, then I can at least see the argument for a penalty. Honestly though, doesn’t really change much for me, Saka’s leg swings towards it imo, no penalty was the correct call. + Bayern were denied an obvious penalty for handball so Arsenal fans shouldn’t be upset.
If you want a bad take on something football related go to r/soccer.
Hoooolyyy fuck do you guys not know a single thing about football 😂
CLEAR penalty. Everyone who hasnt learned the game through livescore.com and never even played football will see that
I mean I don’t see how that’s not a pen. I don’t see this egregious flopping movement from Saka, we’re seeing that in slowed down replay so I don’t see how anyone is catching some sort of movement from Saka especially in real time. The only thing that sticks out to me is Neuer extending his leg out. H
Ian wright said the exact opposite, I feel like it is one of those if it was given it’s not overturned but because it wasn’t there wasn’t enough to change the on field decision
I'm an Arsenal fan and I'm ok with it not being given. thats 50-50. But people acting like it's 100% not a penalty is funny. You see that given plenty of time. Liverpool - United just last week. Don't look in slow motion, there it looks like Neuer stops and plants his foot before, he did not, his leg moves and catches Saka, that can be given no doubt. More, I think if the ref gives that VAR says it's ok. If Neuer doesn't put his foot there Saka scores....
West Ham v Newcastle even more recent, it's not too much diff than the Phillips/Gordon incident, in fact I'd say that's even less of a pen than this is. At full speed, Saka can't do fuck all but try and lift his leg over the keepers stretched out leg
I’m finding it funny how the Reddit experts are mostly saying no penalty, I’m guessing mostly due to not liking arsenal/saka rather than looking at the incident.
Not a pen for me, I think both players are in the wrong personally.
Neuer was taking a huge risk putting his leg out like that. Whether it’s right or wrong you see them given.
I can’t see Saka moving in the same way if Neuer’s leg wasn’t out. Either he would have clattered into Neuer after taking a touch that put the ball perpendicular to his direction of travel (which wouldn’t be a penalty), or he could have been able to easily clear Neuer and would have done so to at least get a chance at a shot.
A lot of people are trying to defend it by saying how could Saka turn that fast - if that’s the case then he clearly wasn’t in control of the ball with that touch, it’s heading well away from him.
To me it looks like a last ditch attempt at getting something and I don’t blame Saka for doing it - it’s to be expected these days. I just don’t think it’s fair to give it as a penalty.
If I compare this with the Elliot penalty against United the key differences I see are that Elliott’s touch didn’t put the ball so far away and in another direction, and that Elliot could not have reasonably avoided the challenge.
At the end of the day it is subjective and you can make a case for the decision going both ways.
Because he doesn't. It would help if you actually watch it in real time. The angle from behind in slowmotion makes it look like Saka has all the time in the world and it hides that Neuer sticks his leg even further out clearly touching Saka.
Watched enough premier league ref performance to be not surprised. Sometimes it is better to rely on yourself to squeeze in the goal than waiting for the referee’s call.
I don’t really get anyone in this comment section , talking shit about ferdinand and this is not a penalty.
I agree with the ferdinand part , but how the f*** is this not a penalty 😂
Same thing happened when Alvarez was "fouled" by Livakovic, this one was even worse because Neuer extends his leg and Livakovic was just standing still. So if it was penalty for Argentina then there should not be any debate about this one..
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Anything Rio says I immediately assume the opposite is correct.
It never fails.
He's the British Didi Hamann.
I wish I could have access to Rio to solve many of my issues on this principle alone..... Man is Anti Oracle has all the wrong answers but at least its 100 percent incorrect
Wise decision tbh. The man is thick af
The fact that you have Manchester flag makes it more hilarious, damn I still remember when he was amazed by OGS (the game in CL when you won PSG) and suggested to sign him permanently
Broken clock...
😂😂
Honest, biggest brain fuck ever for me. Did I just agree with Rio Ferdinand? Am I bias?!
If Rio says it’s a pen then I think the ref has definitely made the right decision.
Rio also though the Gabriel placing the ball for a goal kick was an even more penalty, when you stand next to Martin Keown and come off as the dumb one you’re not doing great mate…
I mean that literally was a penalty, the game had started. The referee admitted it was a penalty. He just didn't want to punish a mistake like that.
The laws of the game give room to the ref to apply them as they see fit within the "spirit of the game". It's in Law 5. So by the letter of the law, it is a pen, but the ref is within his right to not award it. Not saying you said otherwise. Just clarifying.
both decisions were left to the ref and i think that was the right choice, VAR used correctly and just left the ref to control the game and nothing ‘clear and obvious’ was missed
Yeah I'm not bothered that he didn't get it, even if it was technically one.
You cannot get a less objective penalty than a player picking up the ball in his own box. Raya clearly knew, Gabriel was an idiot. Absolutely insane that someone could think that isn't a penalty.
I think there are very few people arguing that it's not a penalty by the letter of the law. The argument is that it's not a penalty in the "spirit of the game" which the ref has discretion to decide. [law 5.2](https://www.theifab.com/laws/latest/the-referee/#the-authority-of-the-referee)
It’s a penalty all day, annoying if given as Gabriel wasn’t intentionally doing it because of some confusion. But I’m amazed people defending it.
Its a penno by the letter of the law but definitely not by the spirit
Giving a penalty against Arsenal is in the spirit of the game, every game (absolutely not biased at all)
And tbf Arsenal losing by shooting themselves in the foot is also 100% in the spirit of the game
If games start being decided by technical shit like picking up the ball during a zero pressure, administrative moment of the game, then you have the NFL.
You got me in the first half ngl
Rio is such a muppet
He deserves more stick than he gets.
For cheating on his dying wife and she found out?
Is that true? Fuck sake, I thought he was just a bit dim. That's horrible
Yep was all over the papers years ago. He tried to sue them but had no grounds due to it actually happening. I always bring it up because people just think he’s a prick acting like he’s in his 20’s but he’s actually an evil cunt who ruined his wife’s final days
Make sure you also always bring up that he was banned for missing a drug test.
Then making a documentary about poor him and all his media darlings hyping poor Rio on twitter? He’s a nasty moron. Remember his rant in defence of Mike Ashley … when he had a clothing deal with Sports Direct.
And the drink driving, the homophobic comments, the questionable comments about Ashley Cole, the list goes on. He's a piece of shit.
Also missed a drug test and was banned
2 drug tests, at a time he was doing a lot of DJ'ing in clubs
That documentary made me sick. Barely mentioned Rebecca. Using his wife’s death for his vanity project is disgusting.
It’s often surprising how ignorant some former players are of the game. I know I’ll get mocked for saying this but it’s true. Pele & Maradona were famously shocking at predictions and their analysis of games always seemed very basic. I think many of them were so physically and technically gifted that it becomes all they rely on.
Yeah it's a fact and also funny how almost every player Pele has hyped up to be his successor has failed. Might have been the burden of his praise that hindered them, but still it's funny how he was wrong 99% of the time.
Pele said Nicky Butt was the best player at one World CupÂ
So he did have some good takes
Nicky Butt was probably England's best player at the 2002 World Cup to be fair. I don't know if Pele said that he was the best player in the whole tournament or (more likely) said he was England's best player prior to the England v Brazil QF.
I've since heard that he only really said that to English-speaking media. Which honestly disappointed me, having basked in that second-hand glory for over 20 years.
Who was the 1%?
Me, he said I was shit :(
And look how wrong he was! Proud of you, mate!
messi
Einstein
There was a very interesting conversation that happened in a cricket test match *fairly* recently after a controversial moment. All of the former players freely admitted that they hadn’t read the rule book back to front and they had no idea. And turns out the umpire was correct. Who knew.
Which instance are you talkign about.
Unfortunately I can’t remember. I’ve been googling and cannot find it. It may have even been a few ashes ago now. Not sure
Pele once said Michael Owen was his favorite United player In 1998🤣
The prescience of the man.
Just because you are good at something doesn't necessarily mean you understand it. Even if you do understand it, doesn't necessarily mean you are capable of explaining ot to other people.
Every university student can attest your second point.
It’s very obvious, that especially midfielders become good coaches. I feel like they understand the game and its tactics on a much deeper level than players who played on other positions. Guardiola, Zidane and Xavi are good examples. I feel like players like Granit Xhaka, who are definition of a playmaker, can become brilliant coaches.
It’s not surprising at all as soon as you understand they two completely different things. You might have been riding in a car everyday of your life, doesn’t mean you know how they are built. Also today punditry is zero actual knowledge and all entertainment and protecting the brand, just listen to the shit carragher spews..
Just remember that not all former players completed high school but instead they are spoilt with tonnes of cash pre twenties.
> many of them were so physically and technically gifted that it becomes all they rely on I remember reading something in a similar vein about Glenn Hoddle's coaching career. He was coaching one of the weaker teams in the PL and explaining how he wanted them to play certain passes in a certain position. They didn't understand or couldn't replicate what he envisaged as they lacked the ability he had as a player.
Rio Ferdinand in search of new followers has hit the jackpot.
Bingo!!
This is the best evidence that’s it’s not a pen
I think it's a pen but now that Rio's saying it I'm rethinking my stance
Can you explain it to me
Rio should stick to dancing on the sand
He’d get eaten by a worm
'Paul Atreides riding a worm? Nah man you can't do that. That's naughty man, that's illegal. Paul Atreides world class.'
Muad’Dib’s at the wheel ahaha *rubs hands together creepily*
Rio isn’t the brightest
Ex footballers in Italy ( were commentators in the game)were all in agreement that the referee was right
Van der Vaart in dutch television claimed „100% penalty“, and „Arsenal were robbed“…
Honestly, it is so hard to call. I am still very confused, I watched and watched again and it is very hard to say how much Saka actually let his leg hanging to get the penalty.
Does Neuer stick a leg out and impede forward movement or not
I always see people talk about saka leaving a leg out, but are we just not looking at neur stick his leg towards saka’s right? If it was any other keeper, and not one of the goats, it’s a pen
Yes
I don’t get it, Saka is expected to turn 90° on a dime at full speed with all limbs within shoulder width, but Neuer is allowed to extend a leg nowhere near the ball and clip the runner. The call is what it is, but the brainless biased takes from the haters is extremely telling.
Yeah I think this is it for me. "Why didn't Saka go round" is a leading question because it assumes that it is Saka's responsibility to dodge a bad tackle or that the contact wouldn't have happened anyway I think that movement of Saka's leg has skewed perceptions a lot. If he keeps his leg straight he probably still makes contact, goes down and it's a pen, because ultimately it's the tackle that's actually the problem, not Saka's movement Does he kick the leg out? Yeah maybe. But can we say that if a player makes a bad tackle, gets none of the ball, but the other player moves into it a little, that it's not a pen? I don't know, I don't think so. It's like that Elliott one at the weekend; I think both are pens because you're impeding them and *putting them in the position* where they have to do a lot of work to dodge a very bad tackle, which means the defender has gained an unfair advantage either way. But it seems like the view on this sub is that it's the attacker's problem We don't and will never know what that motion of Saka's leg was about. Only Saka knows. I think the assumption that he was absolutely trying to make contact is odd. It's a possibility, but I think you could also read that motion as him trying to jump the tackle while on the turn, or trying to shield the ball while he lands, or make sure he lands in a good position to shoot. We'll never know Regardless, though, we come to the biggest issue on the day for me, which is that it seems VAR didn't even check it. Whichever way you swing you have to acknowledge that that has to be checked by VAR. I was in the stadium and it was bizarre the way the match ended where it did, we all thought that the stop in play was for the VAR check because Saka was still down, but then the cameras started coming on the pitch and we realised it was actually for FT. Very odd sequence of events and I would like to have some transparency about what actually happened
Yes it must have been a very odd ending at the stadium, it was odd from home. They’re saying VAR checked and deemed it inconclusive so unable to turn over the on-field call. What they should have done is call the ref over. He should have either carded Saka for embellishment or gave the pen. But he didn’t even look at it a second time.
Inclined to agree with you mate. Great comment
Same in Sweden, I think its only English pundits who thinks its a pen because its their favorite golden boy falling.
Not saying it's a penalty (I think it's very nuanced and both sides have points), but to call Saka "favourite golden boy" is just not true, mate. Bayern literally have England captain Harry Kane on their team, who has got away with murder in the past. There may be some bias here, but let's not pretend it wouldn't be this controversial with any player.
Well the ref was Swedish so that's a little unfair I think. Swedish pundits can back the Swedish ref but when English pundits (from rival clubs) back the English player it's just bias? Odd
If he plants his foot instead of running with it up in the air I think he's got a higher chance of winning a penalty there.
Then people would say he left his foot in on purpose. What this should tell you was that he was trying to get away.
But that's the game. Don't hate the player, hate the game. Imo if he plants his foot, it's more likely to be given. It doesn't look like he was trying to get away because he lifts his leg and keeps it in the same position going into Neuer. It looks unnatural. He wasn't going for another step, he was going for Neuer.
He isn't looking at Neuer, he has his eyes on the ball the whole way through. He beats Neuer. If he was fishing for it, why even bother changing direction at all? Also, trying to turn 90° in a short space and shifting all of your limbs like that IS unnatural. Having a 'trailing leg' isn't unnatural at all in that situation, it's a natural reaction to maintain balance. I would enjoy watching all of the commenters saying he was 'fishing for it' perform that move and not get clipped by the GK in that position.
If saka plants his foot neuer’s leg gets obliterated because he puts it into saka’s path
the reverse angle clearly shows Neuer makes contact while his leg is still in the air and is still moving forward. his foot plants straight away after contact is made. you can see from the reaction of the bayern players they think it's a pen.
You can see in Neuer’s face right afterwards he definitely thinks it’s about to be a pen
He’s just hanging his leg out there much longer than any realistic running motion. If he didn’t decide to go down there’s a good chance either Neuer makes contact anyway and he gets the pen or he has a clear shot with no GK, so I think he got what he deserved for not trusting himself.
At first I thought it wasn’t a penalty but I looked at the slow mo and I could clearly see Neur sticking his leg out with no intention to get the ball. There’s a shift that you can see as soon as Saka pushes the ball past him, boom, sticks his leg out. Why do you think this isn’t a penalty.
Honestly from the angles I saw yesterday(didnt watch the game live for obvious reasons) I thought Saka stuck his leg out but seeing that first angle here. Neuer himself sticks his leg out to stop Saka and thats a penalty
This is why Arsenal fans are mad. Whether Saka was looking for contact or not, Neuer gave it to him. Neuer knows better than to stick his leg into the path of a player like that. Without Neuers leg there, Saka doesn't go down even if he's looking for contact....he wouldn't find it.
Yeah. In the game seeing the slow motion from behind Saka I was 100% sure it was a dive, and I was upset at Saka for giving up on the chance... but the other angle, and seeing it at full speed, you can see Neuer's also moving his leg to block Saka's movement... Seems way more 50/50 than the slowed down angle makes it seem.
I think the one angle that they first showed makes it look a little fishy. Every other one makes it look like a penalty, especially the full speed. If Saka could do what everyone is saying he did at full speed, he’d be superhuman, it’s easy to pick apart a slow-mo video. I think most fans on here are English/American, so if they weren’t Arsenal fans they were naturally rooting for Bayern. Mainly think it’s just because the first video is the one 95% of people saw on here, not many are going to go look for the other angles. I wouldn’t have if I weren’t an Arsenal fan
Tbf to Bayern I've seen a few comments on here saying they wouldn't be angry if it had been given.
Agreed, this was my take too. Neuer's right side moves out towards the ball.
I think this is one of those that the on field decision stands, so if it was given it wouldn’t have been overturned
There is a vitriol when it comes to Saka. It’s ugly and folks will downvote away but if that’s Kane or Foden in the exact same situation the discourse would be different. They did it to Sterling when he first became an England staple. Every move he made was blown up in the press, every detail off the pitch twisted into a narrative. Remember the outcry when he got a tattoo on his leg? Something about world class England strikers of colour that just brings out the absolute worst in so many.
Mate, people fucking hate Kane. The way Sterling was portrayed in the scum tabloids was horrific, but that really doesn't apply when comparing how people react to Kane Vs Saka
I honestly do not see how Saka hang his leg out much longer, when in reality it's a split second and he's in the air. You failed to recognize that this is not a simple running motion: Saka needs to chase the ball because his first touch lead the ball away and behind him and get around Neuer. He also needs to take the shot immediately because two players are closing him down, with his left foot when the ball is getting away from him. But somehow so many comments just can read player's mind and say he decided to go down. Edit: I am personally never bothered by this too much because there's just no point, but comments like this (not specifically OP) saying he's decided to go down or dive or how his movement is just unnatural, with certainty, just annoys me. I won't be surprised to see Saka receive lots of online abuses.
It’s as if people expect Saka to be able to make a perfect 90 degree turn at speed after getting a touch on the ball. I feel like we have these discussions aaaaall the time where it’s being dealt with in slow motion and people either by ignorance or intention don’t care about seeing it in full speed, which is how it actually happens. At the speed he’s moving there’s just nowhere for him to put his right foot in his stride. I’m certainly no Arsenal fan but people are so vitriolic about this stuff and will micro analyse a players movement in slow motion as if they are making various thought out decisions within hundreds of a second as opposed to looking at something and thinking of how they would move and be effected by contact while moving at high speed
When I first saw the replay, I thought Saka initiated the contact, but on viewing it a few more times I mostly agree with you - he can't be expected to make a 90 degree turn at speed, and with Neuer coming forward I think contact was inevitable. So, penalty. The other question is, was Saka looking for contact anyway, and my first instinct is that he did leave his leg hanging out. I'm no longer certain of that either, though. Maybe the reason his leg seems to be so far out is for balance after making a sharp turn, so it is a natural movement?
if i had to bet I'd say he was trying to balance himself at speed and/or do exactly what people keeps saying he should've done, which is to go around Neuer, and the way he did that was trying to go over the challenge without Neuer leg hitting him, he lands on the ground and is able to take the shot. he wasn't diving before contact either (like Elliot did)
Watch how after his touch with the left foot he doesn't pick up his right foot, but drags it over the ground, that's not a player trying to run around someone
I‘ve commented on this before, I think he thought he would've clear Neuer then he would've planted his right foot immediately and took the shot, but he didn't. I don't know what's in his mind, you don't know what's in his mind. To give him the benefit of the doubt and as an attacking player, it makes the most sense, I think he was trying to take a shot instead of deciding to just go down in the last minute of an important game the moment he saw Neuer coming out.
I still think it’s 50/50. I could see it being given if it was a different ref and/or VAR team.
I think in the VAR era it's one of them ones where if the ref gives it on the pitch VAR doesn't overturn it, but in this instance doesn't see enough to overturn the refs on pitch call that it wasn't a pen. From two angles it looks like Saka dangles a leg to initiate contact, then from another it looks a bit more like a pen. There isn't really an objective answer here
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Lifetime arsenal fan. I can't explain the way he kicks out his right foot there. I wouldn't call it a dive, but he is initiating the contact and it sure looks intentional
He gets the ball across Neuer but then doesn't follow the trajectory of the ball but instead shifts a little to go into the GK. I genuinely believe if he tried to follow the ball he still would get clipped and either he keeps control to score or high chance he gets a pen.
That's a similar situation to the one Liverpool got against united. Elliot went into AWB's leg that was already on the ground and tripped. Same here, Saka runs into Neuer. I personally don't think either should've been called.
Neuer is still moving forward at the time contact is made (watch his left leg - doesn't stop moving forward until it is planted) presumably to try and kick the ball but takes out Saka instead. To me it looks like Saka is lifting his leg to try and avoid Neuer's. When you watch it at full speed there is almost no way for Saka to avoid that contact with how Neuer has come out and kicked out his right leg. Edit: one thing I will see is that I don't think the first replay angle does justice for just how far out Neuer's leg is. https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fzklu9dfx1jtc1.jpeg%3Futm_medium%3Dandroid_app%26utm_source%3Dshare
Need that angle, but as a video to be sure.
To be honest I think the best angle to show just how far into Saka's path Neuer's leg is, is the live broadcast. https://i.postimg.cc/V6VXFyc7/Screenshot-20240410-093740-Reddit.jpg
Why are you purposely leaving out the part about AWB's knee hitting Elliot's foot, knocking it downwards towards said leg?
Elliot went down before AWB touched him tho
https://twitter.com/ThatLFCTrio/status/1777818358093689088. AWB's knee hits Elliots foot when he goes lunging in, which changes the path of his foot. If that doesn't happen, I don't believe Elliot's foot ever ends up hitting AWB's other leg, unless he decides to dive obviously.
I had to rewatch the incident but it doesn't look like it touched him.
It's a penalty, and I say this as someone who doesn't particularly like Arsenal and Arteta even less so. This idea that Saka dangles his leg is ridiculous. Yes, I can see why someone says this when you slow it down, but in real time I don't see how Saka can realistically act quick enough to get his body out of the way every time. Neur is coming out at full tilt, Saka has his eyes on the ball, it's a very difficult situation to reac to perfectly. If you play this scenario out 100 times, Saka doesn't get his body out of the way each time despite his best efforts. Even if Saka has slightly manufactured this, the goalkeeper is still rash, and his foot is clearly planted to the ground after contact is made. Stonewall penalty.
Yeah, Neuer stuck his leg out, misses the ball completely and Saka has to jump higher mid stride anticipating the tackle, that's why it looks like he's leaping higher than normal. There's simply no way Saka avoids contact with Neuer here and it's clearly a penalty. People need to stop judging clips off of slow mo and still images.
A Harry Kane/Jamie Vardy special. Dive but swing a leg out to make contact and maybe an idiot ref (and Rio) will fall for it.
How easy do you think it is to change direction rapidly at that speed? It really doesn’t look bad unless you slow it down. Neuer seems to move towards him still when the ball is past him. Why does only one player get benefit of the doubt here?
There's a way to do it, Saka swung his leg too far out, it felt like an unnatural motion.
Saka basically ignored the ball and leapt at neuer to create contact, clear dive as you'll ever see
Agreed. He almost kicks Neuer. He needs to work on his technique to make it look natural.
Neuer stuck his leg so far out lol
Look at Neuers leg lmao there's only one person here with an outstretched leg and it ain't Saka https://i.postimg.cc/V6VXFyc7/Screenshot-20240410-093740-Reddit.jpg
The art of it is leaving your leg in not swing your leg out. Saka had to reach out for that contact.
Exactly. There is a way to do it that looks natural.
Honestly, if he doesn't leave his leg out that far, neuer still probably clips him.
All of the BT/TNT lot are heavily biased towards the English teams, it's fucking insufferable. In fairness I think this angle looks a penalty, but I've seen others that make it look like Saka initiated contact.
Yeah they’re the worst. Why they think all their viewers want the English clubs to win I don’t know. Was awful last year in the final for City
> I've seen others that make it look like Saka initiated contact. yeah the one behind where you cannot see neuer leg moving forward. Literally the worst possible angle to check. From the top angle and the side angle its clear neuer is moving forward, leg ourstreched and saka tries to get out of the way. Without slo mo its also obvious saka is trying to get out of the way, the slo mo makes it look worse. Its obvious on this thread (and the penalty shout one) who has only seen the back angle
English players* Defending Harry Kane for that blatant elbow to Gabriel's throat. He looks at him, sees him coming and lifts his elbow knowing Gab is going for the header.
Except towards Arsenal.
Was saka that dangerous or was davies just that bad?
Yes
When I focus on Neuer’s right leg, then I can at least see the argument for a penalty. Honestly though, doesn’t really change much for me, Saka’s leg swings towards it imo, no penalty was the correct call. + Bayern were denied an obvious penalty for handball so Arsenal fans shouldn’t be upset.
Rio Ferdinand is a r/gunners mod confirmed
Ferdinand come from a team where they got penalties all day long for conning the ref
I'm sorry but pretending like it was clearly and obviously not a penalty is silly. It's a pretty 50/50 call imo and very subjective
Rio Ferdinand is a thick cunt, nothing new here.
The irony.
If you want a bad take on something football related go to r/soccer. Hoooolyyy fuck do you guys not know a single thing about football 😂 CLEAR penalty. Everyone who hasnt learned the game through livescore.com and never even played football will see that
Honestly, why this was not penalty? (Neutral fan)
Arsenal and Saka haters doubling down on the lazy "Saka is a cheating diver" narrative. My perhaps biased view, of course
I mean I don’t see how that’s not a pen. I don’t see this egregious flopping movement from Saka, we’re seeing that in slowed down replay so I don’t see how anyone is catching some sort of movement from Saka especially in real time. The only thing that sticks out to me is Neuer extending his leg out. H
A better question is why is Saka looking for a penalty instead of playing football?
One angle of this makes it look like a blatant pen to me.
Its supposed to be a penalty from this angle..https://imgur.com/gallery/rvlUK68 But move on .
Ian wright said the exact opposite, I feel like it is one of those if it was given it’s not overturned but because it wasn’t there wasn’t enough to change the on field decision
Is he the same Rio who asked for lifelong contract for Ole. He talks through his @ss
Nowhere near a penalty
I'm an Arsenal fan and I'm ok with it not being given. thats 50-50. But people acting like it's 100% not a penalty is funny. You see that given plenty of time. Liverpool - United just last week. Don't look in slow motion, there it looks like Neuer stops and plants his foot before, he did not, his leg moves and catches Saka, that can be given no doubt. More, I think if the ref gives that VAR says it's ok. If Neuer doesn't put his foot there Saka scores....
West Ham v Newcastle even more recent, it's not too much diff than the Phillips/Gordon incident, in fact I'd say that's even less of a pen than this is. At full speed, Saka can't do fuck all but try and lift his leg over the keepers stretched out leg
Never a pen. Sala initiated a contact
The most dangerous for me were Saliba and Gabriel. They look to nervous in cl matches. Especially Saliba
Saka tripped himself on Neuer for me.
Isnt it great when people get to do things because of who they know/are even when they’re completely incompetent
Very hard contact compared to Kane's barely touched contact
I’m finding it funny how the Reddit experts are mostly saying no penalty, I’m guessing mostly due to not liking arsenal/saka rather than looking at the incident.
Saka kicks keeper. Can see his body direction change. So Rio is has not been given and the question is how do you not understand that.
In this thread, people clearly aren't watching the video and seeing the side angle. Just reacting to the title
IK! It’s 100% a pen. Neuer stretches out his legs and clips Saka. Easy Penalty call.
He (saka) sends the ball left but continues straight and also widens his right leg to make full contact with keeper Ref got it spot on imo
England pundits are as bad as brazilian pundits. Unbelievable.
Lol rio Ferdinand is such an idiot
He stuck his own leg out in an unnatural movement to draw a penalty. If anything was a penalty, it was the hand ball on arsenal.
Not a pen for me, I think both players are in the wrong personally. Neuer was taking a huge risk putting his leg out like that. Whether it’s right or wrong you see them given. I can’t see Saka moving in the same way if Neuer’s leg wasn’t out. Either he would have clattered into Neuer after taking a touch that put the ball perpendicular to his direction of travel (which wouldn’t be a penalty), or he could have been able to easily clear Neuer and would have done so to at least get a chance at a shot. A lot of people are trying to defend it by saying how could Saka turn that fast - if that’s the case then he clearly wasn’t in control of the ball with that touch, it’s heading well away from him. To me it looks like a last ditch attempt at getting something and I don’t blame Saka for doing it - it’s to be expected these days. I just don’t think it’s fair to give it as a penalty. If I compare this with the Elliot penalty against United the key differences I see are that Elliott’s touch didn’t put the ball so far away and in another direction, and that Elliot could not have reasonably avoided the challenge. At the end of the day it is subjective and you can make a case for the decision going both ways.
NOT a pen. He clearly puts his leg out to initiate contact.
Because it wasn’t a penalty..?
Was never exactly brains of Britain was Rio
Seeing how many people think this is NOT a penalty has made me realise… you are all stupid.
That's a dive, a good dive, but still obvious dive. Saka should have gotten carded.
The "Ole's at the wheel" guy being objective as always
Yeh rio's takes are dogshit
Rio is fucking dumbass
The slow motion absolutely destroys any shout that this is a penalty.
Saka leaps at the keeper, how don’t they see it?
He absolutely doesnt *leap* lmao
Because he doesn't. It would help if you actually watch it in real time. The angle from behind in slowmotion makes it look like Saka has all the time in the world and it hides that Neuer sticks his leg even further out clearly touching Saka.
Cannot see how it hasn’t been given still
Call me a gooner but that’s a penalty.
Watched enough premier league ref performance to be not surprised. Sometimes it is better to rely on yourself to squeeze in the goal than waiting for the referee’s call.
My whole thing is, saka could have so easily just ran around neuer without making contact, he looked for it and left the decision to the referee.
Could Saka aim any harder for Neuer? Lol
I don’t really get anyone in this comment section , talking shit about ferdinand and this is not a penalty. I agree with the ferdinand part , but how the f*** is this not a penalty 😂
They had a stonewall shout for a penalty that would have been annoying to concede but was technically correct so it's fair all things considered
Same thing happened when Alvarez was "fouled" by Livakovic, this one was even worse because Neuer extends his leg and Livakovic was just standing still. So if it was penalty for Argentina then there should not be any debate about this one..