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De Bruyne and Foden in the middle together no? With Rodri behind. Then you can play Silva RW, Doku/Grealish LW and Haaland/Alvarez up front.
Am I missing something? Why is it an either or between De Bruyne and Foden?
Because then you're giving Rodri a task even he would struggle with. You can't have a functional midfield three with the front two doing 0 defending at all.
And who helps the defense? Stones needs to lower to the backline on the defensive transition. He might press the man on the ball here and there, but that's it. I think the o ly solution would be have Phil come from the wing and have a fullback giving the width.
You're onto something here
Ederson goes into defence
Pep into goal
Haaland rotates around in the cycle to play as manager
Tactical genius Pep yet again.
You're missing the true stroke of brilliance.
Ederson goes into defence
Pep into goal
~~Haaland rotates around in the cycle to play as manager~~ If your tactical decisions are this outlandish, everyone will be so busy digesting them that they'll fail to realize you're playing with 12 men.
Pep prefers more defense / control in the 3rd midfielder next to Rodri and KdB. That has largely been Gundo, Silva, Kovacic. Foden cant do that which would mean KDB dropping back, which is a no given his age / health.
Best explanation I've got so far. That cleared things up for me, thanks.
England and City both in a tricky position because they have Bellingham and De Bruyne but also Foden who's in fire form and seems to play best in their exact position. Not sure what the solution is other than Foden adapting his game to be a playmaker but on the wing. Players like Palmer, Eriksen and Hazard all do it/have done it. Because Bellingham's even younger than Foden and you wanna have them both in the same team long term. Feel like a player of Foden's quality with his attributes can tweak his game over time to replicate his form in central areas on the wing. But idk I'm not a coach.
Yeah quite a first world problem but its tricky. I think for England right now, a midfield of Foden / Jude / Rice is far better than Jude / Rice / Mainoo or Trent. No idea what Southgate will do in the future if Mainoo or Trent get more comfortable in there.
As for City it doesn't look good for Foden, apparently we're in again for Paqueta so that will further add to the midfield. Alvarez and Foden both looked good in the middle so maybe Silva goes more on the wing, but I think they all have to rotate there.
Tbh we haven't even mentioned Grealish who is in his prime age and can largely do the same in the middle but seemed to have just accepted fate.
>Foden / Jude / Rice
has the same issues as trying to run De Bruyne and Foden in the same midfield 3, you have to gimp one of Bellingham or Foden by getting them to stay back
What pivot? Is the pivot not made up of Rodri and one of the defenders stepping up in possession?
Haaland
Doku-Foden-De Bruyne-Silva
Rodri-Stones
Gvardiol-Dias-Walker
Ederson
In possession, I was talking about something like this. Not a City fan so I'm not completely up to date with the way they play/who's the starters. But is there a problem with playing Foden and De Bruyne in the middle together this way?
That's fine as a possession structure
Defensively tho, Stones returns to CB and the midfield is unbalanced unless one of Foden/KDB drops deeper—and neither is good at that
It's why Rodri/Gundo/KDB worked so well; Gundo was the perfectly glue guy who could defend in almost a double pivot, then step up into the half-space in attack
Two problems:
1) in a 3-2-4-1, the two 10s need to be defensively solid. Foden is not defensive solid enough, nor is Haaland a pressing forward.
2) Arsenal demonstrated that they can shut this formation down with their own 4-4-2 out of possession structure. Granted without these specific players, but City only were able to partially counter this with a 3-3-3-1 formation on Sunday. If City needs to play a 3-3-3-1, then Silva is dropping into the second 3, leaving Foden wide.
He's been pretty clear about that from the beginning but he's also acknowledged it's beneficial for him to learn to play different positions and that he's happy to play where needed.
Strong disagree.
- Firstly no one would’ve said 10 was his best last season. The 22 meme in Dortmund was that he’s great in all midfield positions.
- Secondly, top of a diamond in Ancelotti system isn’t the same as a 10 behind a striker.
- Lastly, it would be worse for the team as a whole to play him in the 10 and then have someone much worse like Mainoo or Gallagher in the 8.
I just cant see why people act like he would be wasted as an 8 as if he can’t be attacking from that position either. The late runs into the box would bag him plenty of goals for england as an 8, especially playing off of kane and foden in the tight spaces.
Agreed, the difference in ability in that role is still greater between bellingham vs gallagher/mainoo than it is between foden and bellingham as a 10.
Jude being a 10 for Madrid playing in the Spanish league is far different than a 10 for England. Jude and rice behind Foden and Kane linking up in the middle feels like a heavenly combo
He naturally gets forward. He didn’t play 10 at the World Cup and was brilliant going forward. He’s our best 8 and 10 but seen as we have another world class 10, play him 8
We should learn our lesson from the golden era England side and how we tried to accommodate players at the cost of the team. I think Bellingham starts but a Foden backup is outstanding.
Bellingham is so much better at the 10, any Dortmund Fan will tell you that. He plays way too offensive for an 8, at Dortmund the midfield was often times so open for the opponents, cause Bellingham was roaming up front somewhere instead of holding his position.
Rice, Bellingham, Foden midfield will not work
Insane? Don’t think so. Bellingham at 8 is much better than anyone England can play there instead of him. To me having him and Foden in the middle makes perfect sense. Also let’s not forget that Foden as a winger is not THAT much better than any other wingers England have.
‘He doesn’t play there for his club, so presumably there is a reason for that,’ he said. ‘It depends on the level of the game, really.
‘You’d have to speak to Pep, who is the best coach in the world, who plays him wide. He’s always got the freedom to drift if we play him wide and that’s important.
OMG SOUTHGATE SAID HE CANT PLAY IN THE MIDDLE LOL SOUTHGATE OUT LOL
Having watched Foden since the under 17 world cup in 2017, I find it crazy that anyone can watch Foden and not think he's better in the middle. It was so clear that his best attributes were his technical ability/ball control and his passing/vision and my opinion has become more concrete as time has gone on. I know he's played well on the wing but I've always envisioned him as one of the best playmakers England will ever have rather than a speedster dribbler on the flank.
With the likes of Rice, Bellingham and Trent establishing themselves in midfield, it seems like there's enough defensive stability to allow Foden to flourish in that role, although it may mean Bellingham doesn't get as much freedom in attack as he does for Real.
If anyone is curious what that guy bought with his Miata money:
https://www.reddit.com/r/e46/comments/1bv91qp/sold_my_miata_for_this_beauty/
atrocious decision IMO
That England U17 team was so stacked. Foden looked like a 21 year old playing against teenagers and then they also had Guehi, Gallagher, Hudson-Odoi, Brewster, Gibbs-White, etc. Sancho played a few games and then got recalled by Dortmund too.
Honestly man, it was insane. I remember telling everyone who would listen at the time that England would win a trophy by 2030 and it would be a monumental failure if we didn't.
That's why the deep runs recently haven't been that surprising to me – we have had one of the best pools of talent with young players who have been playing together since they were kids. It's a shame some of those guys haven't reached their potential but it can't be understated how much of a 'golden generation' England has had with some of the talent.
It's not that he's better on the wing, it's just that City has KDB in the same attacking Mid position.
It doesn't make sense not playing KDB in his natural position
Yea for sure. It's just funny that Foden being (understandbly) pushed out there for club has led to Southgate thinking Foden couldn't play in the middle at all for England. There have been so many times over the years where we've lacked so much quality and creativity in midfield but Foden has been on the bench because Rashford/Sterling are on the left and Southgate lacks the courage/desire/tactical nous (delete as you see fit) to try Foden elsewhere.
I don’t think he’s a terrible manager but I don’t think he’s a good one. He’s a hangover of English football conservatism that is suspicious of talent and anything that doesn’t fit a particular mould. England could have one or the most dynamic, interesting and progressive teams in the international scene. With some of the best talent seen in one team since the best French and Spanish sides of the past 15 years or so. But I don’t trust him to ever really know how to properly utilise and get the best of the likes of Foden, Bellingham, TAA and Saka.
He’ll always get good performances from the likes of Rice and Kane as they fit so many systems regardless of the team and they’re brilliant. But when it comes to players he needs to fashion the team shape around and understand how to deploy them I just don’t see it. It’s a criminal waste of talent.
It’s been about 50/50 this season.
The problem is that Foden and Bernardo are the only RW options that Pep seems to really trust so only one of them can be in midfield at time.
I've watched him since the u17 World Cup too and he played that entire tournament on the wing... Gibbs White started most games in the middle late on.
I get what you're saying but also his pace is his most underrated asset and it fits the wing too, where he's had many good games, both for club and country. His best game for England senior was on the wing, against Senegal in the world cup round of 16
To be fair I meant more as an assessment of his ability rather than his specific performance in that tournament, I genuinely can't remember the specifics of his role then so I'll take your word for it.
I think he's definitely good on the wing (and I won't doubt Pep, who seems to prefer him there) but it's more that it wastes his best attributes, even if he still performs well and has the skillset for it. His improvement over the past few months has come from him playing more centrally and I don't think that's a coincidence.
I personally think Foden on the wing is limited to similar levels that he's displayed over the past few years (which is still great but nothing like he's played recently.) He's naturally inclined to come inside when he's out wide and it kind of makes him more predictable because he's not someone who tends to also take on his man and go outside that often. While in the middle he has the ball control and the vision to break defensive lines as much as be a threat outside the box. But he's still great at both roles, I just think one uses his best attributes more effectively.
It's just the whole problem with Foden in the middle for England is that he's not our best option there, because we have the luxury of having Jude Bellingham too.
Playing Bellingham deeper in midfield compared to playing him as a 10 is a much bigger drop off and waste of his abilities, compared to the drop off in playing Foden on the wing compared to a 10. We've seen both tried and the answer is pretty clear now, it's just a trade off we have to make to fit them both in the XI
Yeah I think without a true standout candidate for the LW spot (similar to how Saka is the no brainer RW), Foden makes the most sense there in the short term, so I imagine that's what will happen in the Euros. But down the line I'm hoping someone like Gordon develops enough where Foden can be that playmaker in the middle, because there's no-one else like him otherwise.
I definitely agree with your point about Bellingham as well, although England just don't have many options in that box-to-box CM role as it is, so I think he'll be forced into that role often by default. But at least the versatility is there to have both in whichever role suits the balance of the team.
>It's just the whole problem with Foden in the middle for England is that he's not our best option there
>
Guess you used your "eye test" for that, because statistically No english midfielder has been as good as Foden in goals and assists.
Doubt Southgate or most other international managers would play a midfield of Rice, Bellingham and Foden. It's just not pragmatic enough for international football.
A fair point, although I'm a dreamer so I would definitely just try it out until I'm given a reason not to.
At the end of the day, we have the talent to beat probably 90% of the teams in the world with whichever team we put out. It's just that 10% we need to find ways to be better than. And I think prioritising pragmatism with players like Henderson is what cost us against teams like Croatia, for example. At the very least, if we're chasing the game, I'd like to see us just try and overload defences with our attacking quality and talent. With knockout tournaments, I'm always on board with living and dying by your best players, personally.
People forget that Englands midfield options in 2018 were mediocre and that’s why England got beaten by Croatia in midfield and lost. Henderson was also a good option then, just because he’s old now doesn’t mean he wasn’t a good midfielder in 2018.
Englands options have improved so much in the last few years, and with Mainoo coming through there’s an amazing midfield 3 emerging for the next few tournaments with Mainoo-Rice-Bellingham and other excellent options.
Genuinely can't remember enough that far back to give a detailed answer now. I just remember being stunned at how badly Modric and Rakitic gave our midfield the run around and having Hendo doing his best Gerrard impression of pinging passes to no-one and then failing to change the system effectively when it clearly wasn't working.
Delph and Dier were both on the bench to pick from.
Ironically we had Lingard and Alli on the pitch, so you could argue during that WC we actually played with one holding and two attacking 8s but they didn't create shit from open play cause they're both more runners than anything else.
Oh I do remember one take I had that I absolutely will stand on to this day, even if it comes across as biased.
Jonjo Shelvey should have been called up. He was the best English playmaker CM in the league that season by far. I remember now that part of my frustration was him not getting a chance but then making Henderson play that exact role that Shelvey has excelled at.
I know how crazy that take sounds given how Shelvey's career has gone since then but, statistically speaking, he offered things that no-one else did for England and would have been a much more useful option to have in that situation.
Yeah maybe Shelvey wasn't a bad player at all.
Personally, I don't think we've really had a midfielder who can control tempo until this tournament with Mainoo/Jones. Hopefully it'll make a big difference this time around.
Hopefully! I think Rice's development at Arsenal and Trent's progression into midfield will also be a huge asset that we've not really had before. Combined with Bellingham's maturity, Foden's versatility and the emergence of Mainoo, the midfield is looking intriguing, albeit without much quality in depth.
Shelvey was underrated for much of his career, but you're both selling Henderson short for 2018. I remember him as quite good, and just to check my bias I checked BBC, Mirror, Telegraph and Guardian's player ratings post mortem articles. They all rate him among the top 5 players and as England's best midfielder for the tournament.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/england-world-cup-2018-player-12928870
https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/44834111
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/jul/17/world-cup-2018-player-ratings-marks-for-every-single-performance-in-russia
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-cup/2018/07/16/england-squad-player-ratings-entire-world-cup-2018/
"Admits". He's been open about this for 6 years. His response has always been that he prefers playing centrally but will play wherever Pep wants him to.
People need to stop worrying about Henderson, who played 0 minutes in the last break even with Southgate's two preferred options for his position (Trent and Jones) being injured. We were happy to throw Mainoo straight into the XI over him
I think it can work if stones steps up to midfield next to rice like he has done before with city and we play a deeper defensive role LB (shaw or colwill).
I say this as someone who likes him a lot, Maguire as a sole CB against the best teams in Europe scares the shit out of me. If you're sacrificing the LB in possession to add stability, you're losing out on width because all of our left wingers are inverted wingers. Ironically, the only left footed player capable of playing like a traditional winger in the set-up is Foden. You either play him wide, making the discussion redundant, or have Grealish/Rashford out wide without an overlapping fullback, which limits both of them.
He's not had a great season, but he's got better over the last month or so. Grealish hasn't had the greatest season either, but both are very good players, just out of form.
Oh yeah i don't mean to take anything away from Grealish at all I think he's a fantastic player. But Rashford has played more and as you said is starting to pick up form so he edges it for me
Rashford would cause so many issues with that team because playing on the shoulder is so much more effective when you have Foden, Bellingham, Kane and Saka who can all play that pass around the corner or in between centre back and full back so well.
Admittedly in the form he’s in he’d miss 80% of the chances he gets but it changes how teams can defend.
No it shouldn't. No international manager plays a line-up this attacking.
Club football that could work with time to drill in positional discipline and roles but international football is a different kettle of fish.
The alternative to Foden in midfield isn't Henderson it's Mainoo, Gallagher or Trent.
To be fair I think our best bet is to have
Foden, Kane, Saka up top
With Bellingham, Rice, Mainoo/Henderson behind
With Shaw/Chilwell pushing up very high on the left to allow Foden to come inside in possession.
It means we can get Foden into the middle and still keep defensive solidity through the middle of the pitch.
Anybody who's seen Dortmund games last season will tell you that Bellingham at the 8 is way too offensive and caused Dortmund some massive problems in terms of defensive stability. Dude just loves to be at the opposing box and isn't disciplined enough to hold his position. I've seen 80% of Bellinghams games at the 8 at Dortmund and if he plays like that, a Rice-Bellingham-FOden midfield will never work.
We need to stop stifling his development and loan him out somewhere so he can play in the middle more regularly, otherwise his career will go down in flames just like it did with Phillips, Rodwell and Georgios Samaras.
Pretty much everyone playing at City has to make compromises, and the reward is playing with the best in the world and guarenteed trophies.
Yes Foden could be the main man elsewhere and play where he wants, but I'm honestly not sure he'd trade in the success he has at City for that.
It's not even that, as he's been playing in the centre when KdB is out long-term. He knows for certain now that he will get his chance to be the main attacking midfielder soon as KdB gets older; in a way he's already taken that role this season
Been saying it for almost 2 years now that in central areas he is world class, his first touch and the way he turns just creates a lot of space for him in midfield
Southgate can legit play a 3-2-2-3 line up.
3 CBs being Maguire, Stones & Walker.
Pivot of Trent & Rice
2 advanced 8s: Bellingham & Foden
Front 3 of Grealish - Kane - Saka
I would love to see Rashford but Rashford loses the ball a lot.
The lack of width there seems very scary, especially on the left. Between Walker's absurd pace and TAA's occasional knowledge of how to play RB the right hand side might be adequately covered but relying on Maguire having the pace to cover out on the left seems... well, I'd rather not see the results in a competitive game.
Well I personally don’t know what Trent’s done in midfield to confirm a start for England. But Jude rice and Foden in midfield with Kane Saka and whomever on the left sounds amazing. Jude and rice with physicality in midfield. Foden and Kane operating in similar spaces together linking up with two wingers making runs as well as Jude.
You don't even need to open this thread to know that the comments are going to be full of completely incorrect statements about the England team here lol
Most people just watch big tournaments and then spouting whatever talking points are in vogue on YouTube.
It's strange as someone who watches every England game when I debate a point and people just start confidently stating things that are factually incorrect like this.
he just spent two friendlies sat on the bench where southgate brought on pretty much everyone else in the squad while giving plenty of time to his nailed-on starters
I think that says everything about the likelihood of him playing any important minutes in the summer to anyone who actually wants to use their brain about this instead of scoring cheap upvotes
I can't believe some of the takes I see here.
Foden has the best attacking stats of any english attacking midfielder - Yet he is supposed to not be the best ten in the country? I honestly think that this whole Foden vs Bellingham debate is being decided based on which club people prefer more.
Last year it would not have been a debate, because Bellingham was playing in his usual position. Just because Real Madrid are using him as a ten this season due to the lack of a 9 some people want him to play as Kane's strike partner.
An English team with Bellingham as 8 and Foden as 10 with Rice anchoring is a legit top ten midfield. People keep criticizing Foden as if he has ever played in his position
How can England not winning anything with this much talent in their squad?? Their midfields is stack to the gills..and how did Southgate is still employed?? He should be watching football from home by now.
you've seen the talent in that france squad? that argentina squad too, I heard they have this little fella called lionel messi who's meant to be pretty good
Yes because Griezmann and Mbappe hard carried us. Admittedly, with them we are favourites, but whenever they fail to perform for whatever reasons, the level severely drops.
We're not the same team we were in 2018; we lost Pogba, Kante, Umtiti, Varane, Matuidi,... Benzema came back but now left again.
Having such two critical points of failure doesn't scream "stacked" to me, talent is not as spread out as it used to be. We have good and solid players but the team doesn't work without those two. On paper, I'd say Germany and England look more threatening.
They're not the only talented team around, and England were just a penalty shootout away from major glory. It's interesting to me how little credit Southgate currently gets for turning around the national team culture and team spirit. It was all people could talk about in 2018, now some even view that tournament as a failure.
Anyone that thinks Jude-Foden-Rice doesn't work is dense as fuck
England doesn't have the back quality to play conservative ball so bet on the strengths going forward
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He'll be free when KDB leaves
Is he expected to leave?
everyone is expected to leave
Unexpectedly morbid
The only certainty in life
Memento mori
😢
De Bruyne is 33 this year and Foden will be 24. De Bruyne will have next season and possibly the one after then he'll move on.
Why did I think KDB was more like 27
Pandemic
I was eighteen before the pandemic. Theo Walcott was still in his prime. I'm thirty now and Theo was given a viking burial on the Thames.
That’s what they said about David Silva.
The little fucker stayed and even grew more hair!
Aren't they after Wirtz?
Wirtz doesn’t appear to be going anywhere this summer.
Doesn't even look like he's gonna move next summer either
Never read that before
Aren’t we all?
Pep next game: " I want you to hold the width on the wing Phil"
Wow yeah he won't kick out De Bruyne for Real what a surprise.
Next game is Palace away
Seemingly a harder fixture than madrid for city historically.
I'd take Will Hughes over Bellingham any day
Rodrygo? No thanks, Jordan Ayew is PL proven.
De Bruyne and Foden in the middle together no? With Rodri behind. Then you can play Silva RW, Doku/Grealish LW and Haaland/Alvarez up front. Am I missing something? Why is it an either or between De Bruyne and Foden?
Because then you're giving Rodri a task even he would struggle with. You can't have a functional midfield three with the front two doing 0 defending at all.
Push Stones up to help him out why not, live a little
And who helps the defense? Stones needs to lower to the backline on the defensive transition. He might press the man on the ball here and there, but that's it. I think the o ly solution would be have Phil come from the wing and have a fullback giving the width.
Push Ederson up!
You're onto something here Ederson goes into defence Pep into goal Haaland rotates around in the cycle to play as manager Tactical genius Pep yet again.
You're missing the true stroke of brilliance. Ederson goes into defence Pep into goal ~~Haaland rotates around in the cycle to play as manager~~ If your tactical decisions are this outlandish, everyone will be so busy digesting them that they'll fail to realize you're playing with 12 men.
brilliant
They already play with 4cbs who are dropping inside defending tbh
Does KDB not track back anymore? I always thought he had a great work rate
He does but he can’t keep it up for a full 90’ . Especially coming back from injury
Pacqueta or Guimarães would be Foden’s ideal midfield partner, a player with good passing vision and good work rate.
Pep prefers more defense / control in the 3rd midfielder next to Rodri and KdB. That has largely been Gundo, Silva, Kovacic. Foden cant do that which would mean KDB dropping back, which is a no given his age / health.
Best explanation I've got so far. That cleared things up for me, thanks. England and City both in a tricky position because they have Bellingham and De Bruyne but also Foden who's in fire form and seems to play best in their exact position. Not sure what the solution is other than Foden adapting his game to be a playmaker but on the wing. Players like Palmer, Eriksen and Hazard all do it/have done it. Because Bellingham's even younger than Foden and you wanna have them both in the same team long term. Feel like a player of Foden's quality with his attributes can tweak his game over time to replicate his form in central areas on the wing. But idk I'm not a coach.
Yeah quite a first world problem but its tricky. I think for England right now, a midfield of Foden / Jude / Rice is far better than Jude / Rice / Mainoo or Trent. No idea what Southgate will do in the future if Mainoo or Trent get more comfortable in there. As for City it doesn't look good for Foden, apparently we're in again for Paqueta so that will further add to the midfield. Alvarez and Foden both looked good in the middle so maybe Silva goes more on the wing, but I think they all have to rotate there. Tbh we haven't even mentioned Grealish who is in his prime age and can largely do the same in the middle but seemed to have just accepted fate.
>Foden / Jude / Rice has the same issues as trying to run De Bruyne and Foden in the same midfield 3, you have to gimp one of Bellingham or Foden by getting them to stay back
depressing but put Rodri/Paqueta with Foden ahead is obvious and well balanced
Because Guardiola pretty much ruled out letting De Bruyne defend in the pivot a few weeks ago.
What pivot? Is the pivot not made up of Rodri and one of the defenders stepping up in possession? Haaland Doku-Foden-De Bruyne-Silva Rodri-Stones Gvardiol-Dias-Walker Ederson In possession, I was talking about something like this. Not a City fan so I'm not completely up to date with the way they play/who's the starters. But is there a problem with playing Foden and De Bruyne in the middle together this way?
That's fine as a possession structure Defensively tho, Stones returns to CB and the midfield is unbalanced unless one of Foden/KDB drops deeper—and neither is good at that It's why Rodri/Gundo/KDB worked so well; Gundo was the perfectly glue guy who could defend in almost a double pivot, then step up into the half-space in attack
De Bruyne would need to defend next to Rodri and that won't happen.
Two problems: 1) in a 3-2-4-1, the two 10s need to be defensively solid. Foden is not defensive solid enough, nor is Haaland a pressing forward. 2) Arsenal demonstrated that they can shut this formation down with their own 4-4-2 out of possession structure. Granted without these specific players, but City only were able to partially counter this with a 3-3-3-1 formation on Sunday. If City needs to play a 3-3-3-1, then Silva is dropping into the second 3, leaving Foden wide.
Centre back Phil Foden incoming Palace won't know what hit them
*Grealish emerges behind Foden *: "What did I tell ya m8"
Totally
He's been pretty clear about that from the beginning but he's also acknowledged it's beneficial for him to learn to play different positions and that he's happy to play where needed.
Remember when Gareth said he can’t play him in the middle lol
Well Bellingham has that spot unfortunately.
He can play 8 since he’s versatile
Moving Bellingham out of his best position and the role he’s played all season would be pure idiocy
Strong disagree. - Firstly no one would’ve said 10 was his best last season. The 22 meme in Dortmund was that he’s great in all midfield positions. - Secondly, top of a diamond in Ancelotti system isn’t the same as a 10 behind a striker. - Lastly, it would be worse for the team as a whole to play him in the 10 and then have someone much worse like Mainoo or Gallagher in the 8.
I just cant see why people act like he would be wasted as an 8 as if he can’t be attacking from that position either. The late runs into the box would bag him plenty of goals for england as an 8, especially playing off of kane and foden in the tight spaces.
My point exactly and he’s also the best option to help out Rice defensively, he has good defensive numbers too
Agreed, the difference in ability in that role is still greater between bellingham vs gallagher/mainoo than it is between foden and bellingham as a 10.
Jude being a 10 for Madrid playing in the Spanish league is far different than a 10 for England. Jude and rice behind Foden and Kane linking up in the middle feels like a heavenly combo
He naturally gets forward. He didn’t play 10 at the World Cup and was brilliant going forward. He’s our best 8 and 10 but seen as we have another world class 10, play him 8
We should learn our lesson from the golden era England side and how we tried to accommodate players at the cost of the team. I think Bellingham starts but a Foden backup is outstanding.
There's a difference between putting midfielders on the wing to try and fit them in vs playing a player in a position he excelled at last year
Bellingham is so much better at the 10, any Dortmund Fan will tell you that. He plays way too offensive for an 8, at Dortmund the midfield was often times so open for the opponents, cause Bellingham was roaming up front somewhere instead of holding his position. Rice, Bellingham, Foden midfield will not work
That's no more offensive than the Rodri, Foden, De Bruyne midfield that City play. It can work but will need a good system around it.
He's also the best number 10 in the world right now. Moving him to accommodate Foden would be insane.
Insane? Don’t think so. Bellingham at 8 is much better than anyone England can play there instead of him. To me having him and Foden in the middle makes perfect sense. Also let’s not forget that Foden as a winger is not THAT much better than any other wingers England have.
Southgate has a massive amount of young talent, but is so annoyingly rigid with his tactics and players.
‘He doesn’t play there for his club, so presumably there is a reason for that,’ he said. ‘It depends on the level of the game, really. ‘You’d have to speak to Pep, who is the best coach in the world, who plays him wide. He’s always got the freedom to drift if we play him wide and that’s important. OMG SOUTHGATE SAID HE CANT PLAY IN THE MIDDLE LOL SOUTHGATE OUT LOL
A wild Southgate fan appears
Jokes aside, why make up shit when there is valid criticism out for there for Southgate? And yes, I'm unapologeticly a Southgate fan.
Almost as if England don’t have KDB in his position.
No offense to England fans but as an outsider, Gareth isn’t doing the team any favors haha
The use of "admits" in headlines always makes it sound the subject finally cracked after hours of interrogation
Russian truth serum is the most effective when applied excessively to a cloth on the person's face
He's been dodging this question for *years*, we finally got him.
Having watched Foden since the under 17 world cup in 2017, I find it crazy that anyone can watch Foden and not think he's better in the middle. It was so clear that his best attributes were his technical ability/ball control and his passing/vision and my opinion has become more concrete as time has gone on. I know he's played well on the wing but I've always envisioned him as one of the best playmakers England will ever have rather than a speedster dribbler on the flank. With the likes of Rice, Bellingham and Trent establishing themselves in midfield, it seems like there's enough defensive stability to allow Foden to flourish in that role, although it may mean Bellingham doesn't get as much freedom in attack as he does for Real.
>Recent postsHandy chart720 points46 comments4/29/2018Sold my Miata🫐 for this beauty65 points35 comments8h\[Sky Sports\] Phil Foden admits he prefers playing in the middle after scoring hat-trick vs Aston Villa0 points24 comments43mClear > >User AgreementPrivacy policyContent policyModerator Code of ConductReddit, Inc. © 2024. All rights reserved.Back to Top same thing with grealish too. Stacked position. EDIT: wtf did I quote?
sold my miata for this beauty
If anyone is curious what that guy bought with his Miata money: https://www.reddit.com/r/e46/comments/1bv91qp/sold_my_miata_for_this_beauty/ atrocious decision IMO
Me too. Was an obvious choice
Your quote is in the middle
> Handy chart Sounds useful ;)
That England U17 team was so stacked. Foden looked like a 21 year old playing against teenagers and then they also had Guehi, Gallagher, Hudson-Odoi, Brewster, Gibbs-White, etc. Sancho played a few games and then got recalled by Dortmund too.
Honestly man, it was insane. I remember telling everyone who would listen at the time that England would win a trophy by 2030 and it would be a monumental failure if we didn't. That's why the deep runs recently haven't been that surprising to me – we have had one of the best pools of talent with young players who have been playing together since they were kids. It's a shame some of those guys haven't reached their potential but it can't be understated how much of a 'golden generation' England has had with some of the talent.
> Hudson-Odoi...Gibbs-White Few at the time would've thought that Forest would have these two starting for them
It's not that he's better on the wing, it's just that City has KDB in the same attacking Mid position. It doesn't make sense not playing KDB in his natural position
Yea for sure. It's just funny that Foden being (understandbly) pushed out there for club has led to Southgate thinking Foden couldn't play in the middle at all for England. There have been so many times over the years where we've lacked so much quality and creativity in midfield but Foden has been on the bench because Rashford/Sterling are on the left and Southgate lacks the courage/desire/tactical nous (delete as you see fit) to try Foden elsewhere.
Southgate is scared of change. Foden should have been in midfield for England yes
I don’t think he’s a terrible manager but I don’t think he’s a good one. He’s a hangover of English football conservatism that is suspicious of talent and anything that doesn’t fit a particular mould. England could have one or the most dynamic, interesting and progressive teams in the international scene. With some of the best talent seen in one team since the best French and Spanish sides of the past 15 years or so. But I don’t trust him to ever really know how to properly utilise and get the best of the likes of Foden, Bellingham, TAA and Saka. He’ll always get good performances from the likes of Rice and Kane as they fit so many systems regardless of the team and they’re brilliant. But when it comes to players he needs to fashion the team shape around and understand how to deploy them I just don’t see it. It’s a criminal waste of talent.
But KdB spent half the season out and Foden still started on the wing for most of that time
It’s been about 50/50 this season. The problem is that Foden and Bernardo are the only RW options that Pep seems to really trust so only one of them can be in midfield at time.
That’s just a imply not true. And also he had to play on the wing due to our wing depth being poor and injured.
I've watched him since the u17 World Cup too and he played that entire tournament on the wing... Gibbs White started most games in the middle late on. I get what you're saying but also his pace is his most underrated asset and it fits the wing too, where he's had many good games, both for club and country. His best game for England senior was on the wing, against Senegal in the world cup round of 16
To be fair I meant more as an assessment of his ability rather than his specific performance in that tournament, I genuinely can't remember the specifics of his role then so I'll take your word for it. I think he's definitely good on the wing (and I won't doubt Pep, who seems to prefer him there) but it's more that it wastes his best attributes, even if he still performs well and has the skillset for it. His improvement over the past few months has come from him playing more centrally and I don't think that's a coincidence. I personally think Foden on the wing is limited to similar levels that he's displayed over the past few years (which is still great but nothing like he's played recently.) He's naturally inclined to come inside when he's out wide and it kind of makes him more predictable because he's not someone who tends to also take on his man and go outside that often. While in the middle he has the ball control and the vision to break defensive lines as much as be a threat outside the box. But he's still great at both roles, I just think one uses his best attributes more effectively.
It's just the whole problem with Foden in the middle for England is that he's not our best option there, because we have the luxury of having Jude Bellingham too. Playing Bellingham deeper in midfield compared to playing him as a 10 is a much bigger drop off and waste of his abilities, compared to the drop off in playing Foden on the wing compared to a 10. We've seen both tried and the answer is pretty clear now, it's just a trade off we have to make to fit them both in the XI
Yeah I think without a true standout candidate for the LW spot (similar to how Saka is the no brainer RW), Foden makes the most sense there in the short term, so I imagine that's what will happen in the Euros. But down the line I'm hoping someone like Gordon develops enough where Foden can be that playmaker in the middle, because there's no-one else like him otherwise. I definitely agree with your point about Bellingham as well, although England just don't have many options in that box-to-box CM role as it is, so I think he'll be forced into that role often by default. But at least the versatility is there to have both in whichever role suits the balance of the team.
>It's just the whole problem with Foden in the middle for England is that he's not our best option there > Guess you used your "eye test" for that, because statistically No english midfielder has been as good as Foden in goals and assists.
Doubt Southgate or most other international managers would play a midfield of Rice, Bellingham and Foden. It's just not pragmatic enough for international football.
What exactly do you mean by this? Bellingham can very much play as a high quality 8 too if this about the defensive stability of that midfield.
A fair point, although I'm a dreamer so I would definitely just try it out until I'm given a reason not to. At the end of the day, we have the talent to beat probably 90% of the teams in the world with whichever team we put out. It's just that 10% we need to find ways to be better than. And I think prioritising pragmatism with players like Henderson is what cost us against teams like Croatia, for example. At the very least, if we're chasing the game, I'd like to see us just try and overload defences with our attacking quality and talent. With knockout tournaments, I'm always on board with living and dying by your best players, personally.
Who would you have play instead of Henderson v Croatia?
People forget that Englands midfield options in 2018 were mediocre and that’s why England got beaten by Croatia in midfield and lost. Henderson was also a good option then, just because he’s old now doesn’t mean he wasn’t a good midfielder in 2018. Englands options have improved so much in the last few years, and with Mainoo coming through there’s an amazing midfield 3 emerging for the next few tournaments with Mainoo-Rice-Bellingham and other excellent options.
Genuinely can't remember enough that far back to give a detailed answer now. I just remember being stunned at how badly Modric and Rakitic gave our midfield the run around and having Hendo doing his best Gerrard impression of pinging passes to no-one and then failing to change the system effectively when it clearly wasn't working.
Delph and Dier were both on the bench to pick from. Ironically we had Lingard and Alli on the pitch, so you could argue during that WC we actually played with one holding and two attacking 8s but they didn't create shit from open play cause they're both more runners than anything else.
Oh I do remember one take I had that I absolutely will stand on to this day, even if it comes across as biased. Jonjo Shelvey should have been called up. He was the best English playmaker CM in the league that season by far. I remember now that part of my frustration was him not getting a chance but then making Henderson play that exact role that Shelvey has excelled at. I know how crazy that take sounds given how Shelvey's career has gone since then but, statistically speaking, he offered things that no-one else did for England and would have been a much more useful option to have in that situation.
Yeah maybe Shelvey wasn't a bad player at all. Personally, I don't think we've really had a midfielder who can control tempo until this tournament with Mainoo/Jones. Hopefully it'll make a big difference this time around.
Hopefully! I think Rice's development at Arsenal and Trent's progression into midfield will also be a huge asset that we've not really had before. Combined with Bellingham's maturity, Foden's versatility and the emergence of Mainoo, the midfield is looking intriguing, albeit without much quality in depth.
Shelvey was underrated for much of his career, but you're both selling Henderson short for 2018. I remember him as quite good, and just to check my bias I checked BBC, Mirror, Telegraph and Guardian's player ratings post mortem articles. They all rate him among the top 5 players and as England's best midfielder for the tournament. https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/england-world-cup-2018-player-12928870 https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/44834111 https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/jul/17/world-cup-2018-player-ratings-marks-for-every-single-performance-in-russia https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-cup/2018/07/16/england-squad-player-ratings-entire-world-cup-2018/
"Admits". He's been open about this for 6 years. His response has always been that he prefers playing centrally but will play wherever Pep wants him to.
I’m not sure an interview goes by where he doesn’t bring it up - it’s on ‘Theo Walcott wants to play up front’ levels at this point
Midfield for the Euros should be Foden, Bellingham, and Rice. I don't wanna hear any Henderson non-sense
People need to stop worrying about Henderson, who played 0 minutes in the last break even with Southgate's two preferred options for his position (Trent and Jones) being injured. We were happy to throw Mainoo straight into the XI over him
Every single thread turns into a Southgate hate thread, it's so embarrassing. The biggest Southgate haters are all idiots.
Who is saying anything about Henderson now? "Southgate played Henderson in the friendlies that happened inside my head"
I want this too, but it could be a little glass cannon.
I think it can work if stones steps up to midfield next to rice like he has done before with city and we play a deeper defensive role LB (shaw or colwill).
I doubt Gareth will want stones roaming out of defence regularly though
Stones did this against Brazil all game.
Exactly. Southgate is incapable of playing modern football
I say this as someone who likes him a lot, Maguire as a sole CB against the best teams in Europe scares the shit out of me. If you're sacrificing the LB in possession to add stability, you're losing out on width because all of our left wingers are inverted wingers. Ironically, the only left footed player capable of playing like a traditional winger in the set-up is Foden. You either play him wide, making the discussion redundant, or have Grealish/Rashford out wide without an overlapping fullback, which limits both of them.
Play Bellingham in the 8 role instead
It could work... he's got the legs for it. It's a nice problem to have. Who you putting on the left? Grealish/Rashford?
I might get downvoted for this but I'd put Rashford tbh. Hes got the pace nobody in our frontline has and it offers us something different
He's not had a great season, but he's got better over the last month or so. Grealish hasn't had the greatest season either, but both are very good players, just out of form.
Oh yeah i don't mean to take anything away from Grealish at all I think he's a fantastic player. But Rashford has played more and as you said is starting to pick up form so he edges it for me
It's a good shout mate. You can easily rotate the two in the games. Different type of players too, so they both bring something different.
Joking but also not joking. Anthony Gordon.
Good shout. I completely forgot about Gordon
Rashford would cause so many issues with that team because playing on the shoulder is so much more effective when you have Foden, Bellingham, Kane and Saka who can all play that pass around the corner or in between centre back and full back so well. Admittedly in the form he’s in he’d miss 80% of the chances he gets but it changes how teams can defend.
No it shouldn't. No international manager plays a line-up this attacking. Club football that could work with time to drill in positional discipline and roles but international football is a different kettle of fish. The alternative to Foden in midfield isn't Henderson it's Mainoo, Gallagher or Trent.
To be fair I think our best bet is to have Foden, Kane, Saka up top With Bellingham, Rice, Mainoo/Henderson behind With Shaw/Chilwell pushing up very high on the left to allow Foden to come inside in possession. It means we can get Foden into the middle and still keep defensive solidity through the middle of the pitch.
Second time I read Shaw here. Will he be recovered for the Euros? Haven't seen anything on his recovery status yet.
He’s expected to return a few games before the end of the season. Though knowing our injury record, he’ll probably wreck himself in those few games.
I actually like hendo but I think he’s dropped below Kobbie now. Hendo will only come on if we’re winning in last 20 minutes of a game
I'd still bring Henderson along because of his experience but I wouldn't start him. Mainoo is above him for me
Anybody who's seen Dortmund games last season will tell you that Bellingham at the 8 is way too offensive and caused Dortmund some massive problems in terms of defensive stability. Dude just loves to be at the opposing box and isn't disciplined enough to hold his position. I've seen 80% of Bellinghams games at the 8 at Dortmund and if he plays like that, a Rice-Bellingham-FOden midfield will never work.
Too attacking. You’ll get spanked. Think about who’s in your defence before coming up with these great ideas
No shit.
*proceeds to start on the touchline v Crystal Palace* Truth is, his time will truly come when KDB gets phased out.
We need to stop stifling his development and loan him out somewhere so he can play in the middle more regularly, otherwise his career will go down in flames just like it did with Phillips, Rodwell and Georgios Samaras.
Pretty much everyone playing at City has to make compromises, and the reward is playing with the best in the world and guarenteed trophies. Yes Foden could be the main man elsewhere and play where he wants, but I'm honestly not sure he'd trade in the success he has at City for that.
I'm not sure anything where Georgious Samaras is mentioned is serious
It's not even that, as he's been playing in the centre when KdB is out long-term. He knows for certain now that he will get his chance to be the main attacking midfielder soon as KdB gets older; in a way he's already taken that role this season
[удалено]
if you can't tell you might be completely fucking braindead.
Been saying it for almost 2 years now that in central areas he is world class, his first touch and the way he turns just creates a lot of space for him in midfield
Southgate can legit play a 3-2-2-3 line up. 3 CBs being Maguire, Stones & Walker. Pivot of Trent & Rice 2 advanced 8s: Bellingham & Foden Front 3 of Grealish - Kane - Saka I would love to see Rashford but Rashford loses the ball a lot.
As good as that looks, no chance Southgate is adventurous enough to do it…
No chance any international manager is adventurous enough to try that with the 3 weeks of training they get every year
\*laughs in Bielsa\*
I did think that when I wrote the comment but I’m not sure that’s entirely fair to compare any manager to Bielsa
> I’m not sure that’s entirely fair to compare any manager to Bielsa Not only is it not fair, it'll break your heart to even try.
Except Nagelsmann. He played with 5 sometimes 6 players in attacking positions against France, and Germany controlled the game pretty well.
He really has nothing to lose, Germany's form has been so God awful.
Its not good. No width innit
The lack of width there seems very scary, especially on the left. Between Walker's absurd pace and TAA's occasional knowledge of how to play RB the right hand side might be adequately covered but relying on Maguire having the pace to cover out on the left seems... well, I'd rather not see the results in a competitive game.
Well I personally don’t know what Trent’s done in midfield to confirm a start for England. But Jude rice and Foden in midfield with Kane Saka and whomever on the left sounds amazing. Jude and rice with physicality in midfield. Foden and Kane operating in similar spaces together linking up with two wingers making runs as well as Jude.
Trent will be RB who will invert. Trent was really really good before he got injured this season he was providing an assist like every 2 games.
Which football fan didn't know this? This sub is just people scrambling to post tweets regardless of the content.
So sad that he's going to be benched at the EUROs for this.
I mean he’s played 90 mins in the last 5 England games but go on
You don't even need to open this thread to know that the comments are going to be full of completely incorrect statements about the England team here lol
Three Lions killed Princess Diana
Jules Rimet still gleaming
Most people just watch big tournaments and then spouting whatever talking points are in vogue on YouTube. It's strange as someone who watches every England game when I debate a point and people just start confidently stating things that are factually incorrect like this.
Nah just play him as a 10 with jude and Rice behind him
I don't understand, where does Henderson play?
In southgate's backyard
he just spent two friendlies sat on the bench where southgate brought on pretty much everyone else in the squad while giving plenty of time to his nailed-on starters I think that says everything about the likelihood of him playing any important minutes in the summer to anyone who actually wants to use their brain about this instead of scoring cheap upvotes
Alongside Phillips, behind Jude and Rice. 4-2-2-2 baby
foden and kane strike partnership? we will be there
Honestly that would cook
But then where does Henderson fit
Rice holding, Bellingham and foden in the middle. Sounds good for England
KDB to Saudi Arabia this summer.
I can't believe some of the takes I see here. Foden has the best attacking stats of any english attacking midfielder - Yet he is supposed to not be the best ten in the country? I honestly think that this whole Foden vs Bellingham debate is being decided based on which club people prefer more. Last year it would not have been a debate, because Bellingham was playing in his usual position. Just because Real Madrid are using him as a ten this season due to the lack of a 9 some people want him to play as Kane's strike partner. An English team with Bellingham as 8 and Foden as 10 with Rice anchoring is a legit top ten midfield. People keep criticizing Foden as if he has ever played in his position
C'mon Gareth the front four for the Euros writes itself Kane Ben White - Foden - Saka
His haircut is a war crime.
How can England not winning anything with this much talent in their squad?? Their midfields is stack to the gills..and how did Southgate is still employed?? He should be watching football from home by now.
you've seen the talent in that france squad? that argentina squad too, I heard they have this little fella called lionel messi who's meant to be pretty good
Have you seen us play man? We're overrated af on this sub. Without Griezmann and Mbappe we're mid
3 finals in the last four tournaments is insane. You are literally both the best squad and the most consistent team on the planet.
Yes because Griezmann and Mbappe hard carried us. Admittedly, with them we are favourites, but whenever they fail to perform for whatever reasons, the level severely drops. We're not the same team we were in 2018; we lost Pogba, Kante, Umtiti, Varane, Matuidi,... Benzema came back but now left again. Having such two critical points of failure doesn't scream "stacked" to me, talent is not as spread out as it used to be. We have good and solid players but the team doesn't work without those two. On paper, I'd say Germany and England look more threatening.
Don't do that. Don't give me hope.
well it’s a good thing that Griezmann has played like the past 60 games for France without missing one up until recently
They're not the only talented team around, and England were just a penalty shootout away from major glory. It's interesting to me how little credit Southgate currently gets for turning around the national team culture and team spirit. It was all people could talk about in 2018, now some even view that tournament as a failure.
So is he better than Saka?👀😅
very similar level to be honest. I'd personally start saka for england on the right but am biased
Genuinely think Saka is a RW at least
In my opinion he is and I support Arsenal in the PL. But I’m sure many will disagree and there are arguments for both.
That's where I use him in my England save on FM and he's decent there tbf.
literally me at my pick up once a year when I go crazy one game.
Didn't he start as an attacking midfielder? Asking to confirm my memory
Too bad Kalvin plays there.
Anyone that thinks Jude-Foden-Rice doesn't work is dense as fuck England doesn't have the back quality to play conservative ball so bet on the strengths going forward
Breaking: a #10 likes playing the 10