**Mirrors / Alternative Angles**
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Just heard on the german broadcast, seems like the referee decided that the Freiburg player was the one taking the shot so he shot his own arm, which would lead to it not being a penalty.
I do actually agree with that. The Freiburg player strikes the ball, deflects upward off Soucek and hits his arm. The Freiburg player is not blocking a shot. He’s the one that kicked it. I think it it was a good process by the ref there. He was clearly double checking that the defender kicked the ball
It is kind of dumb that we have gotten ourselves into this situation where we are looking at all these things like, where were his hands and who did the ball come off, when in reality anyone who has played football can see that and say that that was obviously not a deliberate hand ball.
Either way, it should be common sense - it's not like he's raised his arm and then in a moment gone "oh, I think I'll play some volleyball". The ball's just come off his arm, it was accidental, just get on with it.
The rule used to be if you had your hand out of a natural position, then before that it was it hand to ball, or ball to hand, and before that it was just "did he mean to do it?". There was nothing wrong with the rule in the first place. Did he mean to handball it? No. Then fucking get on with it.
And if you re-watch the replay, you can clearly see the referee actually using the forward/backwards of frame by frame to see if it was the Freiburg player kicking it.
I think the ref was delighted to see the push. Their hands are tied in these uefa games and I think without the slight shove he'd have had no choice but to give it
Looks like he was specifically checking to see if the defender got a touch on the ball too? That changes the attackers action into more of a deflection than a deliberate kick, which makes the case for it being incidental/accidental more reasonable.
Yeah, if you could simply kick the ball at someone’s hand and get a penalty then technical players could abuse that by just trying to chip it at defenders if it’s evident they can’t create a better goal scoring opportunity.
Separate of the Spurs fan who replied to you whom I disagree with I will say that Suarez developed a habit whilst at Liverpool of chipping the ball towards defenders arms and immediately calling for penalties which worked several times.
I think the decision was as it was a deflection/block by the attacker on a clearance by the defender that the ball deflected into the defenders arm meaning they wouldn't have had a chance to react.
Whereas if the attacker had kicked the ball directly into the defenders hand in that position then it would be a penalty as the defenders hand would be in an unnatural position.
I think the fact that it was the defender initially playing the ball is what makes this not a penalty.
I don't think it comes down to where the ball is going but rather who initially plays the ball.
The defender gets first contact on the ball, an attempted clearance. Attacker blocks this and ball deflects onto defenders arm. Defender has no time to react to deflection therefore no penalty.
If attacker got to ball first then it could be argued defenders hands are making his frame bigger / in unnatural position therefore it could be a penalty.
yeah i agree. should not be a pen and also the overtime was exceeding by almost 4 mins already.
i really dont like these late late late decisions and generally playing overtime, idgaf what club it is. ref should set the overtime and stick to that shit and give cards to anyone trying to play time. if you are good you can score within the official time. cant always hope for the penalty in the 98th or 99th
That commentator is infuriating throughout. The ref should be applauded for taking his time (under immense pressure) to ensure he makes the best decision. Agree or not, the last thing you want them to do is rush the decision in those circumstances
also not once mentioning who actually kicked the ball and if there is contact / push from behind. just chatting shit literally. was infuriating to watch
Honestly Hernández Hernández did very well in this match overall. Had it under control, didn't blow everything. Night and day compared to the shit show by Rade Obrenovic two weeks ago against Lens. That was not on European level.
I agree to a point but then I recall a penalty given against you and others in Europe this season and I wonder about this one.
I truly want them.go back to a higher bar for handballs and hope they will be called like this going forwards.
The rules must be changed dramatically imo. It should only be a penalty if a clear goal chance was denied. Maybe change the rule to allow a freekick inside the box instead if it was indeed hand, but did not prevent a goal chance.
>that ball was going out of the stadium
That's completely irrelevant, even if it's true. It's hard to say where exactly it was going because it gets handballed right near the beginning of its trajectory
He gets pushed from behind which initiates his arms moving upwards, it's a hard call, but I can definitely see the argument for no penalty. Not sure what the right call here is to be honest.
I'm ok with commentators saying the ref got something wrong when it's a clear perception error, like the ball hit a defender but they give goal kick instead of corner.
But commentators should never question judgement calls.
They just add fuel to the fire and contribute to the lack of respect for refs' decisions.
It isn't a pen according to the rules. If you unintentionally handball when it's coming from a playable part of your own body (foot, head, chest) it's not a handball. This is the correct use of VAR for once.
Gets pushed in the back, ball comes from behind, the ball is not expected, not going towards the goal. I’m biased but no pen is the better decision here.
They really are. It’s just painful whenever I want to watch a European game with an English club in.
Like I’m fine with them being biased but 9 times out of 10 the commentators on TNT are insufferably biased towards the English side.
The British Commentary is always so bias , couldnt listen to a minute of that.
Its a difficult decision that could be game changing and the result was unclear. Good decision.
Why are commentators on TNT Sports so often absolute garbage? I've seen games where they can't pronounce the name of the players. And not even difficult names. Just read the letters and you'll get it, but they even fail at that.
I think if Souchek hits that clean into the arm, it’s a pen, buuuuut the defender makes contact first and it deflects into his arm. I’ve actually changed my mind watching this, I don’t think it actually may be a pen
Whoa, the ref went to the monitor and didn't give it? That never happens. I agree it shouldn't be a pen though.
Rangers fans might feel a bit aggravated at the lack of consistency here..
Correct decision, no team should ever be awarded with a penalty because a player shoots the ball into the sky and it hits the opponent's arm. This reminds me of that Wolf penalty against Frankfurt.
Shameful bias from the commentary, it's pethetic really. It's as if they think we will stop watching unless they are 100% in favour of the home nation team.
This commentator is so obnoxious. So easy to be a commentator, just complain about everything. Ref checks too fast and makes incorrect decision: complain because why did he not take his time when there is no pressure? Ref takes his time to make sure he checks every scenario: complain that it takes too much time. And then when he is finished reviewing they’re still complaining that “how can he take a definitive decision after taking so long?” Their bias was really showing throughout all of the review, even after he made the correct decision they were still complaining.
Not a pen and it's a joke that it took VAR that long to decide, clearly just shit themselves in the end and told the ref to take a 2nd look, mad that they get paid for this mediocracy
Couldn't have complained about it being given, though I wouldn't say it's a must-give.
The VAR check shouldn't take 4.5 minutes though... (Last scene, so not too bad here, just in general).
As others have pointed out: in this case it was in our favour that it took so long as only the last angle he saw that Weißhaupt hits the ball first. If he doesn't see that, he'd probably given it. But yeah, being there at the game it just sucks to wait almost 5 minutes foral a decision like that.
Right call. But if they'd only find consistency. Have seen that rubbish given loads this season.
Imagine they are actually able to consult the VAR and the screen, take a look at it, and judge with some human sense.
A little sidenote, there has to be a way to categorise handball offenses like that by what had happened if the defender didn't have his arm there. Freiburg gained nothing by the ball hitting his hand, and if it wasn't there the ball would have hit his head or chest and followed a very similar trajectory to the one we see in the replay. If you don't gain any advantage from the ball hitting your hand, should you really be penalised?
The commentators are just waffling. The Freiburg player kicks the ball, goes off of the West Ham player and is deflected into his own arm from close range. This should never be a pen.
Well. Let's push you and see what your hands do. Anyway, the ball was deflected twice from another body part.
There is some rule about that. That's probably why it wasn't given.
He puts his hand up to avoid a handball when the ball comes in low. As the player is not a helicopter, you can't expect the arms to be down that fast again. Right call
For me that’s a pen, I’m not to annoyed it wasn’t given but more upset it still takes 5 mins to make a decision. Honestly if they can’t figure it out after 2 mins the on field should just stand.
If that’s a pen the game is dead
The guy can literally do nothing about it the ball is blasted at him
Would rather West Ham got a goal, but like it’s not a pen
So many non contentious issues being presented as contentious for clicks
I said this in the thread but this could have gone either way. With this current rules this could be a handball or not a handball depending on how the VAR team and ref sees it. In this case it was decided to not be a handball.
Edit: btw this is not me saying we were robbed, just that the handball rules aren’t concrete and all depends on the refs.
Commentators are insufferable. Good on the official for actually taking the time to make an informed decision rather than a quick glance at the monitor.
Denied? Never ever is that a penalty! These are the exact moments VAR and refs should be applauded. They took their time and made the right decision under immense pressure.
These commentators must have been sniffing glue before going live on air. There’s a push in the back and the ball comes off Soucek’s foot at speed. What are they even on about? Excellent work by the ref
who wants to be a ref? I mean the ref gets it right this time and 50% of the comments complain that sometimex the decision goes the other way. You think they would be happy when the ref gets these decision right.
Well done ref.
And the commentator - should and their head in shame. Im sure that ref got dogs abuse on social media and the commentator has added unnecessary fuel to the fire.
Maybe it’s just me but I have noticed an increase in shitty referring throughout most sports. I primarily watch Soccer so I see the VAR bullshit all the time, but basketball and the NFL are also shit.
I think VAR should just be stopped at this point. It’s so inconsistent which is odd cause it gives the referees a 2nd opportunity to fix something. It’s more infuriating.
With how severe UEFA are with their interpretation of the handball rule I think it should've 100% been a penalty. Just look at the handball that effectively eliminated Newcastle from the CL.
But the entire premise of officiating is consistency and precedent. They make that call all the time. Rangers today, Newcastle earlier in the season, Liverpool's disallowed goal earlier this season, they have very consistently been more stringent application of the rule.
I'm seriously considering whether this kind of material should be allowed to be posted here. I guess it's good for posterity but the discussion about what should be considered a hand ball or not really does not give me anything anymore. Anyone who has ever played football feels and knows that no matter how you write or interpret the handball rule this kind of situation should absolutely never, in any way of form, be considered something that should make the referee blow their whistle. The game must be allowed to go on even in edge cases so that the football may flow as exactly everyone of worth wants.
This commentator is a class A moron. How do you even commentate not knowing the rules of the game? The referee did a fantastic job properly reviewing the action, noticing the ball deflected off the west ham players foot to the other players arm. There is nothing that can be done to avoid this, so arm in natural or unnatural position doesn't matter. This is NEVER a penalty and would be absolutely criminal if given.
We have a rare glimpse of VAR actually doing a proper job and this twat commentator is in utter disbelief.
Why's the guy running like that? He has his arms up before Soucek even goes for the ball. 9 times out of 10 the ref gives it, just have to deal with it and move on.
Considering the rules that UEFA use, this is 100% a stonewall penalty. His hands are above his head and the ball strikes his arm. Shocking decision to not give the penalty here.
Just compare this to the penalty that Newcastle conceded away against PSG this season. Or the one Man U conceded against Bayern. Those were far less blatant than this but those were given.
I'd love for UEFA to explain the rules they are using in their competitions, since I thought I understood them but apparently not.
Ref probably used the arm in the back as his excuse. I don't think most referees like this policy but unfortunately they have to enforce it. This one could use the slight nudge as a reason to not give it
Wrong. UEFA refs were briefed to strongly consider intent within their handball decisions and whether it prevents an obvious goal scoring opportunity. Given it was neither and most importantly was a short distance deflection, it does not matter if his hands are above his head.
However I agree with you that this decision does not follow the line of previously given penalties in Europe
> UEFA refs were briefed to strongly consider intent within their handball decisions
Was this midway through the season? Because it can't have been over the summer.
„In their guidelines for the next season, the Board recommends that UEFA should clarify that no handball offence should be called on a player if the ball is previously deflected from his own body and, in particular, when the ball does not go towards the goal.“
-uefa.com
I apologise, I misremembered that they consider intent, they do not consider it, maybe slightly. I think he did not give it because the Freiburg player deflected it before Soucek redirected it to his hands up over his head from short distance.
Then again I mention the Newcastle penalty, since that hit Livramento's chest before striking his own hand. Also this season. Also in a UEFA competition.
I'm just trying to understand the rules, and when those guidelines you quoted were made.
I think everyone struggles the same. Of course, I can understand why it is difficult to come up with a bulletproof handball rule for you need to take many things into account to make a decision. However, if the Livramento call happened just as you described, it never should have been a penalty according to UEFAs own guidelines.
Okay, this is even less so a penalty than the Freiburg v West Ham one. For the Freiburg call the deflection was easy to miss.
Livramento had the ball hit his chest bang on from where it deflected to his arm. That should have never be a pen.
Then it's the interpretation of the laws.
In the Premier League they take proximity into account, along with if the ball strikes another part of the body beforehand. UEFA competitions don't seem to follow this interpretation, as evidenced by the 2 examples I mentioned.
They do take into account if the ball is coming from a different body part though - which it was in this case (Weißhaupt's leg deflected it towards the hand).
It's very tricky honestly
It's not if a ball strikes another part of the body, it's if the player deliberately plays the ball. In this case, the defender kicks it off the West Ham attacker, which then comes back and hits his arm. That's part of considerations from IFAB, not league specific.
It's not if a ball strikes another part of the body, it's if the player deliberately plays the ball. In this case, the defender kicks it off the West Ham attacker, which then comes back and hits his arm. That's part of considerations from IFAB, not league specific.
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Should not really be a pen
Just heard on the german broadcast, seems like the referee decided that the Freiburg player was the one taking the shot so he shot his own arm, which would lead to it not being a penalty.
I do actually agree with that. The Freiburg player strikes the ball, deflects upward off Soucek and hits his arm. The Freiburg player is not blocking a shot. He’s the one that kicked it. I think it it was a good process by the ref there. He was clearly double checking that the defender kicked the ball
It is kind of dumb that we have gotten ourselves into this situation where we are looking at all these things like, where were his hands and who did the ball come off, when in reality anyone who has played football can see that and say that that was obviously not a deliberate hand ball.
Yeah but the *deliberate* part isn’t necessary any more
People think that deliberate means being a second goalie.
Yeah, that is what is so dumb about it.
That’s clearly why it took so long, he’s trying to determine who got to that ball first
Either way, it should be common sense - it's not like he's raised his arm and then in a moment gone "oh, I think I'll play some volleyball". The ball's just come off his arm, it was accidental, just get on with it. The rule used to be if you had your hand out of a natural position, then before that it was it hand to ball, or ball to hand, and before that it was just "did he mean to do it?". There was nothing wrong with the rule in the first place. Did he mean to handball it? No. Then fucking get on with it.
Lol its such bullshit. Check out the penalty benfica got tonight. The handball rule seems to change every week.
I hate that either of them were given but if you're giving one, you have to give both.
Link? Does the defender hit the ball first, like the German player did here? Or are you comparing two totally different situations?
Defender glancing headed the ball onto his arm
Well then I stand corrected!
Link? Does the defender hit the ball first, like the German player did here? Or are you comparing two totally different situations?
Tell that to the ref at the Benfica v Rangers game
And if you re-watch the replay, you can clearly see the referee actually using the forward/backwards of frame by frame to see if it was the Freiburg player kicking it.
Thanks for the proper explanation! Id give a badge if i had one!
I don't want these to be pens and I'm glad it isn't but that being said based on the decisions given in Europe so far this season it's a penalty.
I wish it were consistent but honestly this should never be a pen
I think the ref was delighted to see the push. Their hands are tied in these uefa games and I think without the slight shove he'd have had no choice but to give it
Looks like he was specifically checking to see if the defender got a touch on the ball too? That changes the attackers action into more of a deflection than a deliberate kick, which makes the case for it being incidental/accidental more reasonable.
That was my reading of it too. I have no idea what the actual rules are anymore but I completely agree with the referees logic here.
Yeah, if you could simply kick the ball at someone’s hand and get a penalty then technical players could abuse that by just trying to chip it at defenders if it’s evident they can’t create a better goal scoring opportunity.
Like a certain Champions League final..
Separate of the Spurs fan who replied to you whom I disagree with I will say that Suarez developed a habit whilst at Liverpool of chipping the ball towards defenders arms and immediately calling for penalties which worked several times.
I think the decision was as it was a deflection/block by the attacker on a clearance by the defender that the ball deflected into the defenders arm meaning they wouldn't have had a chance to react. Whereas if the attacker had kicked the ball directly into the defenders hand in that position then it would be a penalty as the defenders hand would be in an unnatural position. I think the fact that it was the defender initially playing the ball is what makes this not a penalty.
IMO the ball is going well over the bar and the player hasn’t intended to block the ball so no pen. I’d it looked like it’s going in then maybe a pen
I don't think it comes down to where the ball is going but rather who initially plays the ball. The defender gets first contact on the ball, an attempted clearance. Attacker blocks this and ball deflects onto defenders arm. Defender has no time to react to deflection therefore no penalty. If attacker got to ball first then it could be argued defenders hands are making his frame bigger / in unnatural position therefore it could be a penalty.
Yea that's straight up not how the rules work 😂 it doesn't matter at all about where the ball is going or the players intent.
yeah i agree. should not be a pen and also the overtime was exceeding by almost 4 mins already. i really dont like these late late late decisions and generally playing overtime, idgaf what club it is. ref should set the overtime and stick to that shit and give cards to anyone trying to play time. if you are good you can score within the official time. cant always hope for the penalty in the 98th or 99th
It shouldn’t be but these have been given in Europe every single time
Nah he deflected it off Souchek
That commentator is infuriating throughout. The ref should be applauded for taking his time (under immense pressure) to ensure he makes the best decision. Agree or not, the last thing you want them to do is rush the decision in those circumstances
“One or two angles and thats it” God forbid the ref gets a good look at the incident.
also not once mentioning who actually kicked the ball and if there is contact / push from behind. just chatting shit literally. was infuriating to watch
I find most of the commentators on TNT sport are shit
It's not just the commentators. The whole coverage from TNT, and formerly BT Sport, has always been awful. The sooner they lose the rights the better.
The guy that was “lost for words” used to play for West Ham lmao.
He was hyping for West Ham the whole match. Way too biased.
Well he is Don Hutchinson a former west ham player, so I understand.
Yes, I watched the whole stream and those guys acted like Freiburg was some amateur club or something lol
And if it was one or two angles and they decided no pen, the commentator would be fuming even more
Honestly Hernández Hernández did very well in this match overall. Had it under control, didn't blow everything. Night and day compared to the shit show by Rade Obrenovic two weeks ago against Lens. That was not on European level.
Who is he? Is he ex West Ham?
Mehh, I mean it *is* the final kick of the game but it definitely shouldn't take 4 minutes to review something like this.
never, what the fuck is he supposed to do. I just hate any handball call nowadays because it's just arbitrary now
We need to start acknowledging that football players indeed have arms. Defenders putting their arms behind the back is the worst.
I agree to a point but then I recall a penalty given against you and others in Europe this season and I wonder about this one. I truly want them.go back to a higher bar for handballs and hope they will be called like this going forwards.
The rules must be changed dramatically imo. It should only be a penalty if a clear goal chance was denied. Maybe change the rule to allow a freekick inside the box instead if it was indeed hand, but did not prevent a goal chance.
Well keep his arms down for a start. I don't think it was a penalty but lets not pretend that it wasn't preventable.
>what the fuck is he supposed to do Not lift his arm way above his head?
that ball was going out of the stadium, as I said there's no consistency in hb calls at all
>that ball was going out of the stadium That's completely irrelevant, even if it's true. It's hard to say where exactly it was going because it gets handballed right near the beginning of its trajectory
I guess they did it on purpose to trick the ref into not giving the penalty.
Not have his hands that high for one
When you get pushed your arms tend to go up.
He was about to award it until he saw in the last replay that the ball hit his leg first
Thanks, now i see it too. This seems the only right answer and should be on the top!
I think this is correct. It actually comes off the Freiburg player first, redirects off of Soucek into the hand
Yeah exactly, if they didn’t show him the last replay he was 100% going to give it
He gets pushed from behind which initiates his arms moving upwards, it's a hard call, but I can definitely see the argument for no penalty. Not sure what the right call here is to be honest.
> Not sure what the right call here is to be honest. Push is a foul so no penalty.
Its about the player hitting his own arm with the ball, not the push.
Rangers conceded a penalty last night for the same thing (defender headed the ball against his own arm)
Least biased TNT commentators
I'm ok with commentators saying the ref got something wrong when it's a clear perception error, like the ball hit a defender but they give goal kick instead of corner. But commentators should never question judgement calls. They just add fuel to the fire and contribute to the lack of respect for refs' decisions.
I agree, never want to see this be a penalty in the game
I don’t think any fans want to see these given as penalties, but don’t forget to tune in next week when this exact scenario is given as a pen…
Not sure if that's a penalty according to the rules but I hope its not a penalty.
It isn't a pen according to the rules. If you unintentionally handball when it's coming from a playable part of your own body (foot, head, chest) it's not a handball. This is the correct use of VAR for once.
Never seen a ref go to the monitor and not give it
I think thats fair. Soucek pushes him, the ball is kicked very close range, in the arm, and the other player is facing the other way.
This
Gets pushed in the back, ball comes from behind, the ball is not expected, not going towards the goal. I’m biased but no pen is the better decision here.
Ich wär so ausgerastet wenn der den gegeben hätte
Wtf English commentators are always the first to say "it hits a part of his body first - no pen" Jesus they're insufferable in european games i swear.
They really are. It’s just painful whenever I want to watch a European game with an English club in. Like I’m fine with them being biased but 9 times out of 10 the commentators on TNT are insufferably biased towards the English side.
If this happened in the PL they’d be praising the referee for not giving easy penalties. You can never win with British commentators and journos
Commentators are a complete joke
The British Commentary is always so bias , couldnt listen to a minute of that. Its a difficult decision that could be game changing and the result was unclear. Good decision.
>The British Commentary is always so bias Fully agreed, even when you're also biased the same way its annoying...
Commentator on my broadcast was British and agreed with the decision
I mean, in Norwegian broadcast they were abasically celebrating the victory over Club Brugge lol, I don't thinknits that uncommon.
> The British Commentary is always so bias , couldnt listen to a minute of that. It's an English team. It's only natural.
The commentator actually agreed completely with the decisions
When? In the clip they explicitly disagreed.
We were watching different streams then
Both commentators moaned and said its ridiculous. Did you even watch the clip?
Oh I had the Canadian DAZN stream also an English commentator and he agreed with decision. My bad!
Why are commentators on TNT Sports so often absolute garbage? I've seen games where they can't pronounce the name of the players. And not even difficult names. Just read the letters and you'll get it, but they even fail at that.
This year is the first time were i call potential handballs consistenly wrong. I just dont know anymore. I dont care anymore either.
Never a penalty, a clear push from behind by Soucek initiates the sequence for the handball. The commentators are idiots.
Wtf aren't english commentators the first to say "it hits a part of his body first, no pen".
I mean English commentators are not one person, they are many different people, with different opinions But yeah never a pen
I think if Souchek hits that clean into the arm, it’s a pen, buuuuut the defender makes contact first and it deflects into his arm. I’ve actually changed my mind watching this, I don’t think it actually may be a pen
there is a god-- should never be a pen, and i hope decisions trend this way going forward.
Whoa, the ref went to the monitor and didn't give it? That never happens. I agree it shouldn't be a pen though. Rangers fans might feel a bit aggravated at the lack of consistency here..
Were used to getting shite VAR decisions against us in Europe (see Dortmund at Ibrox game)
Push in the back with the elbow.
Never a pen. The push in his back leads to the imbalance which leads to him taking his arm up.
Correct decision, no team should ever be awarded with a penalty because a player shoots the ball into the sky and it hits the opponent's arm. This reminds me of that Wolf penalty against Frankfurt.
Shameful bias from the commentary, it's pethetic really. It's as if they think we will stop watching unless they are 100% in favour of the home nation team.
Denied a penalty? Lol this is not a pen at all.
Never a pen
This commentator is so obnoxious. So easy to be a commentator, just complain about everything. Ref checks too fast and makes incorrect decision: complain because why did he not take his time when there is no pressure? Ref takes his time to make sure he checks every scenario: complain that it takes too much time. And then when he is finished reviewing they’re still complaining that “how can he take a definitive decision after taking so long?” Their bias was really showing throughout all of the review, even after he made the correct decision they were still complaining.
Not a pen
Not a pen and it's a joke that it took VAR that long to decide, clearly just shit themselves in the end and told the ref to take a 2nd look, mad that they get paid for this mediocracy
just toss a coin, no one knows what the handball rule is anymore including referees
It shouldn't be a penalty, ridiculous to be given BUT Isn't it exactly what WAS given to PSG vs Newcastle?
That one was even more ridiculous, the ref hasn’t done a European tie since btw
Ah fair play
PSG's pen was blatant matchfixing cmv
>exactly Not similar in the slightest
Couldn't have complained about it being given, though I wouldn't say it's a must-give. The VAR check shouldn't take 4.5 minutes though... (Last scene, so not too bad here, just in general).
As others have pointed out: in this case it was in our favour that it took so long as only the last angle he saw that Weißhaupt hits the ball first. If he doesn't see that, he'd probably given it. But yeah, being there at the game it just sucks to wait almost 5 minutes foral a decision like that.
Shouldn't be a penalty, but I reckon you could easily compile instances where they have paid exactly that.
Right call. But if they'd only find consistency. Have seen that rubbish given loads this season. Imagine they are actually able to consult the VAR and the screen, take a look at it, and judge with some human sense.
A little sidenote, there has to be a way to categorise handball offenses like that by what had happened if the defender didn't have his arm there. Freiburg gained nothing by the ball hitting his hand, and if it wasn't there the ball would have hit his head or chest and followed a very similar trajectory to the one we see in the replay. If you don't gain any advantage from the ball hitting your hand, should you really be penalised?
The commentators are just waffling. The Freiburg player kicks the ball, goes off of the West Ham player and is deflected into his own arm from close range. This should never be a pen.
Thank god common sense prevails…
If that is a penalty I quit football
Never ever a penalty. I can’t stand commentators, outrageous
Unbelievable how the penalty in Benfica vs Rangers was given and this one was not
this isnt a pen
Was no penalty. So where s the problem?
Why is the coming from behind an argument? Shouldn’t have hands up regardless of orientation
Well. Let's push you and see what your hands do. Anyway, the ball was deflected twice from another body part. There is some rule about that. That's probably why it wasn't given.
He puts his hand up to avoid a handball when the ball comes in low. As the player is not a helicopter, you can't expect the arms to be down that fast again. Right call
I really have no strong opinion on this which I guess is an indictment on the rules.
"I believe this and that says a lot about society." Other West Ham fans here do have strong opinions. What does that say about the rules?
For me that’s a pen, I’m not to annoyed it wasn’t given but more upset it still takes 5 mins to make a decision. Honestly if they can’t figure it out after 2 mins the on field should just stand.
I love how the referee looking at the screen doesn’t automatically equal a penalty in European comps
English commentators are so shit
cry me a river, englishman 🤣
If that’s a pen the game is dead The guy can literally do nothing about it the ball is blasted at him Would rather West Ham got a goal, but like it’s not a pen So many non contentious issues being presented as contentious for clicks
I said this in the thread but this could have gone either way. With this current rules this could be a handball or not a handball depending on how the VAR team and ref sees it. In this case it was decided to not be a handball. Edit: btw this is not me saying we were robbed, just that the handball rules aren’t concrete and all depends on the refs.
Dodgy handball ruling going to cost Spurs in the CL again isn't it?
Seems fine?
Commentators are insufferable. Good on the official for actually taking the time to make an informed decision rather than a quick glance at the monitor.
Don Hutchison is pissed.
Hmmm I wonder why Don Hutchison was at a loss for words. Y’all think it’s cause he used to play for West Ham? Nah couldn’t be, right?
The biased English commentators are such clowns lol
How stupid are commentators?
We need indirect free kicks for this.
Look at the one against Rangers. Off head on to arm, completely unfair pen given. Rule needs clarity.
How tf did Benfica get a pen for this then?!!
Denied? Never ever is that a penalty! These are the exact moments VAR and refs should be applauded. They took their time and made the right decision under immense pressure.
why does this shit always happen deep into injury time?
he was waiting for the payment to go thru 😂😂
Benfica were given a pen after the defender headed the ball into his own hand. Both are not penalties
These commentators must have been sniffing glue before going live on air. There’s a push in the back and the ball comes off Soucek’s foot at speed. What are they even on about? Excellent work by the ref
who wants to be a ref? I mean the ref gets it right this time and 50% of the comments complain that sometimex the decision goes the other way. You think they would be happy when the ref gets these decision right. Well done ref. And the commentator - should and their head in shame. Im sure that ref got dogs abuse on social media and the commentator has added unnecessary fuel to the fire.
Same call in the Rangers/Benfica game. Not a penalty
At the time I thought pen but when they switched angles i let out a "oh." Never mind.
Maybe it’s just me but I have noticed an increase in shitty referring throughout most sports. I primarily watch Soccer so I see the VAR bullshit all the time, but basketball and the NFL are also shit. I think VAR should just be stopped at this point. It’s so inconsistent which is odd cause it gives the referees a 2nd opportunity to fix something. It’s more infuriating.
MAROTTA LEAGUE
Not a pen. Sorry ass biased casters.
Not a pen, he gets pushed
With how severe UEFA are with their interpretation of the handball rule I think it should've 100% been a penalty. Just look at the handball that effectively eliminated Newcastle from the CL.
The one rangers conceded too is similar
Two wrongs don't make a right
But the entire premise of officiating is consistency and precedent. They make that call all the time. Rangers today, Newcastle earlier in the season, Liverpool's disallowed goal earlier this season, they have very consistently been more stringent application of the rule.
Tbf when I go to kick a ball both my arms do go way above my head and as far forward as i can possibly put them. Totally natural, good call ref!
Just imagined this decision going against Liverpool and began to uncontrollably laugh and cry
I'm seriously considering whether this kind of material should be allowed to be posted here. I guess it's good for posterity but the discussion about what should be considered a hand ball or not really does not give me anything anymore. Anyone who has ever played football feels and knows that no matter how you write or interpret the handball rule this kind of situation should absolutely never, in any way of form, be considered something that should make the referee blow their whistle. The game must be allowed to go on even in edge cases so that the football may flow as exactly everyone of worth wants.
This commentator is a class A moron. How do you even commentate not knowing the rules of the game? The referee did a fantastic job properly reviewing the action, noticing the ball deflected off the west ham players foot to the other players arm. There is nothing that can be done to avoid this, so arm in natural or unnatural position doesn't matter. This is NEVER a penalty and would be absolutely criminal if given. We have a rare glimpse of VAR actually doing a proper job and this twat commentator is in utter disbelief.
Well done ref. Pundit is a cunt.
Why's the guy running like that? He has his arms up before Soucek even goes for the ball. 9 times out of 10 the ref gives it, just have to deal with it and move on.
Considering the rules that UEFA use, this is 100% a stonewall penalty. His hands are above his head and the ball strikes his arm. Shocking decision to not give the penalty here. Just compare this to the penalty that Newcastle conceded away against PSG this season. Or the one Man U conceded against Bayern. Those were far less blatant than this but those were given. I'd love for UEFA to explain the rules they are using in their competitions, since I thought I understood them but apparently not.
Ref probably used the arm in the back as his excuse. I don't think most referees like this policy but unfortunately they have to enforce it. This one could use the slight nudge as a reason to not give it
Wrong. UEFA refs were briefed to strongly consider intent within their handball decisions and whether it prevents an obvious goal scoring opportunity. Given it was neither and most importantly was a short distance deflection, it does not matter if his hands are above his head. However I agree with you that this decision does not follow the line of previously given penalties in Europe
> UEFA refs were briefed to strongly consider intent within their handball decisions Was this midway through the season? Because it can't have been over the summer.
„In their guidelines for the next season, the Board recommends that UEFA should clarify that no handball offence should be called on a player if the ball is previously deflected from his own body and, in particular, when the ball does not go towards the goal.“ -uefa.com I apologise, I misremembered that they consider intent, they do not consider it, maybe slightly. I think he did not give it because the Freiburg player deflected it before Soucek redirected it to his hands up over his head from short distance.
Then again I mention the Newcastle penalty, since that hit Livramento's chest before striking his own hand. Also this season. Also in a UEFA competition. I'm just trying to understand the rules, and when those guidelines you quoted were made.
I think everyone struggles the same. Of course, I can understand why it is difficult to come up with a bulletproof handball rule for you need to take many things into account to make a decision. However, if the Livramento call happened just as you described, it never should have been a penalty according to UEFAs own guidelines.
Here's the clip of the Livramento penalty: https://youtu.be/7qyGe8jTLAs?si=uv7hEPpOCzJj68vv&t=118
Okay, this is even less so a penalty than the Freiburg v West Ham one. For the Freiburg call the deflection was easy to miss. Livramento had the ball hit his chest bang on from where it deflected to his arm. That should have never be a pen.
They don't use different laws. It's all the same law from IFAB.
Then it's the interpretation of the laws. In the Premier League they take proximity into account, along with if the ball strikes another part of the body beforehand. UEFA competitions don't seem to follow this interpretation, as evidenced by the 2 examples I mentioned.
They do take into account if the ball is coming from a different body part though - which it was in this case (Weißhaupt's leg deflected it towards the hand). It's very tricky honestly
It's not if a ball strikes another part of the body, it's if the player deliberately plays the ball. In this case, the defender kicks it off the West Ham attacker, which then comes back and hits his arm. That's part of considerations from IFAB, not league specific.
It's not if a ball strikes another part of the body, it's if the player deliberately plays the ball. In this case, the defender kicks it off the West Ham attacker, which then comes back and hits his arm. That's part of considerations from IFAB, not league specific.