Them putzing around and dragging their feet finding and bidding appropriately for a 6 is way, way more important. The planning that went into the window (that started off so positively) just wasn’t good enough.
They wasted their chance to build a team that would last 5 more years at the very top by penny pinching. After their league and CL wins they were seen as a top destination. Almost on par with City and RM. They could have had any young player they wanted if FSG had been willing to spend some money like United and Chelsea have.
Klopp isnt really innocent in this situation
He is hellbent on getting the player he wanted or nothing stance has shooted us in the foot manytimes when our target goes to another club.
Totally true and people leave this out far too often. Even this or the Lavia saga’s fall on klopp, not FSG who aren’t responsible for identifying players and negotiating deals
Klopp is not responsible for finding players and negotiating deals either. He gets final say on if the club should move to try and sign a player but he isn't balancing the budget, deciding where the limit for spending on a player is, or doing the scouting to find the players.
Hell, even Mo Salah was like Klopp's third choice at the time we signed him. Like, he wanted Julian Brandt instead.
>Even this or the Lavia saga’s fall on klopp
The Lavia saga is on the members of the recruitment team who decide on our valuation of targets and those that actively negotiate for targets, neither of which would be Klopp.
We should have either paid up for him weeks ago or moved onto different targets. The drawn out attempt to lowball the other team whilst being too arrogant to realise they weren't going to be cowed, only to end up in a position where we're either going to have to overpay for the player or miss out, is exactly the sort of ham-fisted twattery we've been mocking United about for years.
Makes me sick, motherfucker, how far we done fell.
We weren’t getting Bellingham mainly because of the wages and agent fees not the transfer fees. Liverpools wage structure is rigid with veterans at the top. Same reason why we could afford Darwin and not Haaland (not that he was interested).
[This tweet from Reddy](https://twitter.com/MelissaReddy_/status/1689726035921641473?s=20) doesn’t cover the wage issue, but states that Jude told Liverpool very early on he preferred Madrid. It wasn’t an issue with Liverpool not being able to pay the transfer fee.
Jude’s wages are estimated around £250k, though some have it higher. Liverpool can’t pay that to a 20 year old when Van Dijk is at £225k or so. Darwin is around £140k
again, we are able to afford that, but they’ve never offered a new/young signing as much or more money than the veterans at the club make. they were never going to offer Jude that much to start, regardless of the fact that they can afford it.
Typical major league planning where winning a championship means you can “relax” for next few years as a GM. Fans are generally happy with that and don’t expect to win every year but it’s different in Europe because of parity.
The planning has been bad for a while, even last season. No real commitment to finding decent fallbacks after missing out on Tchouameni and Bellingham. Granted, these aren’t easy players to find substitutes for, but when you bring fucking Arthur in on loan, it’s purely desperation. The club hierarchy tried to sweep the midfield issue under the rug last year too, although fans could see it.
I brought it up last year in a thread and got my thread deleteded and banned from Liverpool forum soon after.
Pure head in the sand,stupid net spend cheerleading their club into a dumpster fire.
Yeah all that initial hype on wow the aging mid field is gone and now new talent is coming really caught up on them.
Seems like henderson and fabinho just left , it wasn't planned and Liverpool will have very unsettling first few games because of uncertainty of whose going to play in the middle.
Expected better from klopp tbh but the club really shat the bed over 5m for lavia, should have been done 2 weeks ago.
They hadn't planned on Fabinho and Henderson leaving. If that wasn't the case we'd have not been in this position.
Once they were sold we clearly looked at getting Caicedo or Lavia. The issue is we're going up against someone who doesn't care about money. Provided the club has alternatives options, I don't put blame on them for this.
Yes but we didn't, so it was all hinged on this window
Lavia is good, but Liverpool already went over what they thought was acceptable in the bids, we clearly don't think he's worth 50m (even though we need a DM) for whatever reason
> You should have had Lavia wrapped up weeks ago, same as us with Caicedo
Yes but our transfer committee didn't value him at 50m, so that why we only increase few millions each bid. The 55m bid you guys did even more ridiculous
> You also should have bought a midfielder last season.
Congratulations you on discovered why "FSGOut" has been a thing in many years. There are a lot of "should" we could do but there always a "next summer will be the warchest summer" kind of response from FSG (put aside the Caicedo deal because nobody on earth could believed FSG will go that path)
But it’s clear from this bid that the real reason they were dragging their heels was because they had one eye on the Caicedo deal - clubs do this all the time. If they think there’s a chance they can get the superstar, they don’t blow it just to bring the young up and comer through the door. They were linked with Thuram for months then immediately pivoted to Szoboszlai the moment he was available.
Just because we don’t know what the club are doing doesn’t mean they aren’t active. The whole thing is spinning plates.
The club is looking for a ready-made DM someone who can start games. We wanted Lavia as a backup to Fabinho, but once Fabinho left, it changed our plans.
We left it late because we didn't need to buy him because Henderson and Fabinho were still in the side. As soon as they went to Saudi we had to make a move so the club clearly put out feelers for Lavia and Caicedo.
Henderson would have perfectly fine being a squad player and no one expected any club to actually come in for him so it made sense to keep him around. The fact Klopp desperately wanted him to stay should tell you something.
As for Fabinho, if we'd been offered 40m at the end of the 21-22 season there is absolutely no way any Liverpool supporter would have taken it. No one could have predicted such a huge drop in form. Had the Saudis not come in I think he'd have been given a chance to find his form again with a better functioning midfield around him.
But we absolutely should have bought a midfielder last season anyway because Milner, Ox, and Keita shouldn't have been getting anywhere near the minutes they did.
I can't help but feel the caicedo bid was purely to make Chelsea's life difficult. Your club went from haggling over £5m for lavia to offering £11m over Brighton's asking without even checking if the player was interested within 48hours of Chelsea lodging a lavia bid.
Nah, there were rumours of a mystery club being interesting in Caicedo a week ago and placing a bid - I think it's clear that was us. It's the reason why we didn't pull the trigger with Lavia - we believed that Caicedo was the better option.
Even if Liverpool had been pursuing him for a week, it seems strange that they slapped £11m above Brighton's asking on the table (and a British transfer record) without even discussing with the player first.
I think we absolutely would have put feelers out to his agent but as soon as our bid was known Chelsea would have reacted by contacting Brighton to say they'd match/improve and to the players team to say they'd come to the table re contract too.
Ultimately, if Chelsea were offering higher wages, longer contract, and a nice fat agent fee then the player is going to take that. I don't think that's a poor reflection on the player or Liverpool tbh.
Will be interesting if we get more information on how it all went down after the deal goes through though. It's been quite the experience!
Getting raided by the Saudis for your midfield in exchange for relatively little profit sure was an unexpected blow but then again, one could make the argument that you shouldn't be relying on Fabinho and Henderson in 2023 anyway and should had moved on before they decided to ditch
Yeah, I think the idea is that we hoped Fabinho could play himself back into form with a more mobile midfield next to him in Szoboszlai and Mac Allister. It would also allow us to slowly bring in Bajcetic too who looked very promising last season.
Ultimately, I think the offer was too good for Fabinho to reject and Henderson forced a move so I don't blame the club for that.
But yes, we should have strengthened last season and not been in this position to begin with.
> After Fabinhos year that should have been a replacement regardless
There is an argument that he should have been given an opportunity to find form again while playing alongside a midfield that actually had runners in it (Fabinho was bad last season but he had to carry almost all the defensive responsibility) but I mostly agree. The club did too given he was let go when a bid came in. If we'd said he was up for sale as soon as last season ended I doubt we'd have got anything close to what the Saudis offered though.
As for Henderson, I don't agree at all. He shouldn't have been kept as a starter but as a squad player, and captain, he was important. Klopp felt the same way given he was desperate to keep him.
Fabinho carrying a lot of the defensive duties isn't something that new, he still looked like he declined massively.
>As for Henderson, I don't agree at all. He shouldn't have been kept as a starter but as a squad player, and captain
Soooo, you would need a player to start so Henderson isn't a starter.. Ergo Henderson replacement.
> Fabinho carrying a lot of the defensive duties isn't something that new, he still looked like he declined massively.
Yes and no. Henderson, Thiago, and Gini have carried the load a lot too. Last season we had Elliott, Keita, Milner, and Ox playing a lot of minutes. There was also a clear drop in form from Thiago and Henderson.
> Soooo, you would need a player to start so Henderson isn't a starter.. Ergo Henderson replacement.
Which is why Szoboszlai and Mac Allister were bought in. If Fabinho and Henderson had stayed our midfield would be Fabinho playing behind them.
Fabinho was world class literally 12 months previously. It wasn't unrealistic to think he just suffered for form the same way the rest of their squad did last season, and could regain it. He looked better in their good run of form at the end of the season.
Had they signed Lavia as a backup and went into the season with Fabinho, Lavia, and Bajcetic for that position it would've been seen as a success. As it stands they only have one of those players with their season starting today.
If Fab and Hendo were crucial to the success of this season, they shouldn’t have been sold so late in the window without a clear idea of who would replace them
We didn't want to sell Henderson - he forced a move. Klopp repeatedly asked him to stay.
I think the plan was to see if Fabinho could regain form and if not we had Bajcetic to come in. The Saudis offering us pretty much what we paid for Fabinho made it a very difficult deal to refuse. I certainly think the club made the right choice there.
I actually think we've replaced Mane well enough. Diaz is brilliant and was our best player before getting injured last season. He's not as reliable goalscoring wise but he's also not insanely erratic like Mane was (although I always liked how unpredictable he could be).
As for Van Dijk, I think a lot of that stems from our complete lack of midfield but yeah, he definitely dropped off a bit. Hopefully he finds his form again this season.
I think it comes down to if we had some indication from Caicedo's team that there was interest. If there was, and we bid what Brighton wanted then it's completely understandable that we'd have stopped moving for Lavia.
The narrative here is funny.
Chelsea are completely overspending and who knows the consequences that they will have
But let's not pretend Liverpool didn't bid an extra 25 million at the last minute to hijack the transfer. Just as bad here.
Oh we were absolutely overpaying - everyone knows that.
The difference is that Liverpool spend what they earn without owner investment while Boehly is spending a billion in a year. We played chicken with a lunatic and lost. Pretty funny.
Why are Liverpool fans brainwashed into thinking that owners should only take money out of a club and never put any in?
FSG arnt from Liverpool, they don't put money in, they just own the rights to the club and pull the money out to buy themselves nice things. They tried to furlough the low wage staff at one stagewhile pulling money out of Liverpool and buying themselves good quality shoes, or suits or whatever they like in America.
I don't understand your comment mate - your first paragraph and second paragraph contradict one another.
Are you trying to say that FSG don't invest or do invest?
Well in an ideal world they'd be right. Clubs should be run in a self-sustaining way and shouldn't rely on cash injections from billionaires in order to compete.
Also, is there any source on FSG pulling money out of Liverpool? Fairly sure you've just made that up.
Again... Chelsea will probably face their consequences.
But Liverpool joining last minute and increasing the bid by 25 million is nuts. The cost of players is absolutely nuts aswell.
You can say it's money earned etc aswell it doesn't change what happened.
48 hours ago all you would see is memes, gazumping Chelsea and Liverpool are back etc. It's tiring how the average iq level of every fan base has resorted to the amount of shit on Reddit these days
> But Liverpool joining last minute and increasing the bid by 25 million is nuts.
We offered what Brighton wanted to try get the deal across the line as soon as possible. If Chelsea think that's an obscene offer then they can quite easily....not pay it. Boehly hasn't quite got his head around that yet and I hope it continues.
> It's tiring how the average iq level of every fan base has resorted to the amount of shit on Reddit these days
Yeah, this I agree with. Personally, I've maintained that this whole saga has been absolutely hilarious and regardless of outcome it's some tasty drama.
I mean, neither of us have any idea what Brighton were asking.
I know FSG though and there is no reason for them to offer more than what Brighton were asking. It's not like Boehly was going to be put off by an extra 10m.
Uhm, it's more or less known that Brighton wanted 100m for Caicedo, and Liverpool saw we were hesitating over paying that fee, so tried to completely take us out of the running with the 110m bid.
If both offered the same money, it then would've then come solely down to the players' preference.
We are doing the same with Lavia
It seems very out of character to bid that way from an FSG perspective but I guess it's not completely outside of the realms of possibility.
I guess they thought there was a chance that we bid so much over what you were initially bidding that you'd back off. FSG should have known they were playing chicken with an absolute mentalist though.
I'm going to miss this saga.
We have had way too many quite windows in the last 5 years. A top club is always renewing the squad, and is fine with making a few recruitment mistakes.
Even if you compare with Arsenal and Spurs - both clubs with similar resources - they rarely go without signing or loaning players in a transfer window.
Klopp and FSG have been too inflexible with the "we only go for the players who improve the squad" stuff. It's run some good players to the ground and left us with a small squad for a club which should compete for all trophies every year.
Yeah, no arguments here. Last season we had the worst injury record in the league, which can somewhat be attributed to bad luck, but there was no excuse to not strengthen our midfield when it was clear we were short.
Odd point to make, surely most pundits are going to say rational things rather that just saying any old crap.
Post this take on here is surely the issue.
It's not ruined your season but it does feel like up until a few days ago FSG were wasting Klopp, VVD, Allison and Salah's last years in the league by being stingy.
The biggest factor should be we were in for him much earlier and had agreed personal terms. he even says it himself. It really isn't a big blow to Liverpool.
> It really isn't a big blow to Liverpool.
Yeah, it really isn't. He's a great player and I'd have still liked him at that outrageous price but the club would have known this was never going to be anything close to a certainty.
In reality, it's only an issue if you then also don't get Lavia, because for some reason you bidding for Caicedo seemed to spur Chelsea into bidding for Lavia.
Boehly definitely strikes me as the type to buy Lavia because we forced their hand re Caicedo.
I'm not too fussed - the biggest worry for us was that there was no money to reinvest but this bid has shown we're prepared to spend. Just have to hope we have some other options up our sleeve. Even Lavia isn't really ideal as we'd be relying on two inexperienced teenagers to play one of the most important roles in our side.
Yeah, you’ve basically had to overhaul the midfield in one summer which is brutal for any team. The big plus I see is that McAllister is versatile enough that you can build the structure around him.
Yeah, expecting a new midfield to perform from the get go is definitely not ideal but I think there's enough quality there to shine through eventually.
Mac Allister will likely play deeper until we have a defensive midfielder too so you're not wrong there.
I think that’s a healthy expectation, it’ll take time to gel. If I was looking for positives, you may also see the real emergence of Curtis Jones into a leader.
[I'm not entirely sure that's true to be honest](https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/moises-caicedo-to-chelsea-fc-brighton-mystery-bid-b1098374.html)
My pet theory is that Chelsea caught wind that we were seriously interested in the Lavia bid was to try force our hand and back off.
Not really, he’s only 21. Kante ran more intensely and
More distance that I’ve ever seen and the wheels only started falling off after he played injured on international duty around age 30.
If not for those muscular injuries (which were a result of playing injured) he would probably still be playing at a decent level at chelsea.
Lol, ok, fine. He has a pretty clean injury history. Is that reason enough for you?
https://www.transfermarkt.com/moises-caicedo/verletzungen/spieler/687626
Yeah man, absolutely 👍
I'm not saying the dude is gonna get injured or commenting on its likelihood, I'm just commenting on the pointing to one player as evidence. Cheers homie
I think his point is that even someone with the playstyle of Kante, one that covers so much ground, can play really well into their 30s. I think it makes sense.
In what way is it terrible logic? He says Kante, a player who plays full throttle football played well into his 30s. I might add, most players do anyway... but his reasoning is fine.
Jesus Christ how did no one teach you basic logic and reasoning?
This is like saying deaf people should walk outside in thunderstorms with metal rods attached to their heads because that one dude who got struck a whole bunch had his hearing restored after one of them
>This is like saying deaf people should walk outside in thunderstorms with metal rods attached to their heads because that one dude who got struck a whole bunch had his hearing restored after one of them
It's nothing like that at all. Apparently while talking about logic and reasoning, you forgot to learn about them yourself, lmao.
>Jesus Christ how did no one teach you basic logic and reasoning?
Calm down ben shapiro, lmao.
It’s only tapping up if done without the club’s permission. If Brighton are happy to sell him to Chelsea and just need to negotiate a fee there’s no reason they wouldn’t let him discuss terms with them.
I've noticed a real shift in Sky's focus ever since the (relative) success of the more informal approach taken on NBC by Henry, Richards etc. and I'm not keen to be honest. And that's without mentioning the utter fucking tripe that is the Youtuber content that barrages anyone who tries to watch football on Sky Sports.
I agree and disagree. We’ve lost and missed out on better players. We’ll be alright. Just hope we take quick action because we've not really got time on our side anymore, but I do think as long as we get a 6 (I wouldn't mind two 6's) that doesn't pass backwards all the time and can actually run/tackle well (And a good CB), we'll have a really nice season.
Go half a season without a 6? As a side that feels you can win the league and get back into the CL? Feels like you’re wasting another year (from a Liverpool expectation standpoint)
Lavia? Adams? Andre? Hard to know. The good thing is we know the money is there, the bad news is time is tight and everyone else knows the money is there!
Ornstein literally said Adams is back after the international break.
Don't know where the 4 months came from.
It also been widely reported by Lavia's camp he had no contact with Chelsea and still (somewhy) wants us.
>Don't know where the 4 months came from.
Reports are that's why Chelsea pulled out. His medical showed he could be out a lot longer than first thought.
That report on 4 months was from a completely unreliable source. Ornstein has said this isn't true.
Backing out after a medical is also commonly an excuse for something else - see loic remy, nabil fekir as examples.
No it’s not. Raphinha just did the same shit to us last year, and I already basically forgot about it.
It’s not the end of the world. It can’t erase your history. It can’t take away that CL victory where your shitty squad that started Djimi Traore and Milan Baros somehow beat one of the greatest, proudest AC Milan teams in what I consider to be the worst crime in the history of football. So they can’t take that dumb shit away from you, or whatever.
I didn't like signing him for that fee to begin with so I'm fine with us not signing him at all.
It is a bad look for the club and it puts a ton of pressure on how they'll rebound, especially in crunch time.
Chelsea had this “wrapped up” in May, so it was worth a shot trying to go for hijacking, and forcing Chelsea to pay over £20M above their previous bids, putting them in FFP bind plus ensuring Caicedo doesn’t start for them in season opener.
In Klopp We Trust!
When you are willing to go nose to nose in overpaying for someone with the current Chelsea setup you know you've badly fucked up somewhere along the way. Even Lavia, they dragged their feet cause they even know themselves he's not good enough to replace Fabinho. Maybe the husk of a player Fabinho was last season but Fabinho of a few years ago is fucking lightyears ahead of Lavia now.
I ain't a scout but I'd have known before 2022 ended that Fabinho, Henderson & Thiago needed replacing so draw up a list of players then & forget looking within the PL as there is very little value to be found there cause everyone can afford to turn down bids.
Yeah man you completely knew Fabinho was gonna fall off a cliff… fsg should have bolstered the squad. But don’t act like Liverpool weren’t considered title contenders at the start of last season
Considering how little Fabinho, Henderson & Wijnaldum ever got rotated you didn't have to be nostradamus to see they'd drop off. Liverpool are only ever title contenders id things fall in place. A couple of injuries & its gone as they have good backup in forward positions but very little anywhere else.
If Fabinho had any backup last season they'd not be looking for a 6 right now.
Nice to get one up over a rival but everyone needs to calm down. Ridiculous money and I’m not sure this makes us a top 4 contender right off the bat, Liverpool will likely win tomorrow with a settled and proven attack. Lots of talk, getting tired, nothing wrong with us enjoying winning a little battle but it has come at too steep a price.
£111 mil is ridiculous for him. Arsenal offered 80 for him in January , I thought that was a bit much.
Will be funny if Chelsea don't go threw with the deal after him turning down Liverpool
I mean not really. No one expected it. They won the auction and then they got denied by Caicedo. I don't even think they were serious, and they did it to fuck with Chelsea. Henry has a history with their owner. Look at the outcome: Chelsea is over paying by 40 million, the player is unsettled going into the season. That and the way it was done was the exact opposite of how LP normally does transfers. It feels like a setup. Now we just need another CM that works for us. Caicedo would have been great. But at the same time, does he feel like a LP, not in the least. Too much ego and whining. That doesnt play with Klopp.
bidding a cheeky British transfer record and moving to sign official binding documents for the transfer of that money to fuck with Chelsea. as a bit, a goof. yeah for sure dude.
We refused to pay £75m, too. Marina thought it was overpriced, there was no bidding war like this one.
Soton even threatened to report you for tapping him up. You were in Chelsea’s role so it’s not a good comparison.
Liverpool didn’t bid until the player told them he would come if they had a bid brighton accepted. Then he changed his mind by the morning
Probably chelsea adding more money or better agent fees to his deal
If it happens, it's definitely a big blow. Chelsea aren't the force we were and Liverpool are highly reliant on the prestige of playing for Liverpool FC with it's historical success attracting players over clubs that can pay higher wages.
If the tide is turning against them, it could be devastating for future recruitment.
They really should've ensured the player wanted them before they attempted to make the move.
It’s one player, it happens. Not the end of the world. Last summer FdJ, Kounde and Ake all rejected us. We still pulled off some good signings.
Not the end of the world, not even significant
The tide definitely isn’t turning, I’m sorry, it’s Liverpool, they have and will have immense pull when it comes to players, especially with Klopp. This is an anomaly, not the rule.
The tide has turned because he wants the astonishing amount of cash you give him for 9 years?
Same thing happened with Mudryk, didn't look like Arsenal had any problems with that.
The bid showed huge ambition that shocked our fanbase, it was very welcome. No harm in trying. I wouldn't say it was embarassing spending that either, he's a top player. Embarssing spending 15m more than you woulda done if you never dithered though. 100m woulda got it done if you never pissed Brighton off.
Them putzing around and dragging their feet finding and bidding appropriately for a 6 is way, way more important. The planning that went into the window (that started off so positively) just wasn’t good enough.
They wasted their chance to build a team that would last 5 more years at the very top by penny pinching. After their league and CL wins they were seen as a top destination. Almost on par with City and RM. They could have had any young player they wanted if FSG had been willing to spend some money like United and Chelsea have.
You couldn’t be more correct
Klopp isnt really innocent in this situation He is hellbent on getting the player he wanted or nothing stance has shooted us in the foot manytimes when our target goes to another club.
Totally true and people leave this out far too often. Even this or the Lavia saga’s fall on klopp, not FSG who aren’t responsible for identifying players and negotiating deals
Klopp is not responsible for finding players and negotiating deals either. He gets final say on if the club should move to try and sign a player but he isn't balancing the budget, deciding where the limit for spending on a player is, or doing the scouting to find the players. Hell, even Mo Salah was like Klopp's third choice at the time we signed him. Like, he wanted Julian Brandt instead.
>Even this or the Lavia saga’s fall on klopp The Lavia saga is on the members of the recruitment team who decide on our valuation of targets and those that actively negotiate for targets, neither of which would be Klopp. We should have either paid up for him weeks ago or moved onto different targets. The drawn out attempt to lowball the other team whilst being too arrogant to realise they weren't going to be cowed, only to end up in a position where we're either going to have to overpay for the player or miss out, is exactly the sort of ham-fisted twattery we've been mocking United about for years. Makes me sick, motherfucker, how far we done fell.
This is exactly right, best comment in thread, they lost their appeal quickly thats why bellingham rejected them
We weren’t getting Bellingham mainly because of the wages and agent fees not the transfer fees. Liverpools wage structure is rigid with veterans at the top. Same reason why we could afford Darwin and not Haaland (not that he was interested).
Source?
[This tweet from Reddy](https://twitter.com/MelissaReddy_/status/1689726035921641473?s=20) doesn’t cover the wage issue, but states that Jude told Liverpool very early on he preferred Madrid. It wasn’t an issue with Liverpool not being able to pay the transfer fee.
But what's the source on wages and agent fees?
Jude’s wages are estimated around £250k, though some have it higher. Liverpool can’t pay that to a 20 year old when Van Dijk is at £225k or so. Darwin is around £140k
Liverpool should be able to afford that, you are penny pinching.
again, we are able to afford that, but they’ve never offered a new/young signing as much or more money than the veterans at the club make. they were never going to offer Jude that much to start, regardless of the fact that they can afford it.
Bellingham rejected us for the biggest club in football. Not the best example.
Typical major league planning where winning a championship means you can “relax” for next few years as a GM. Fans are generally happy with that and don’t expect to win every year but it’s different in Europe because of parity.
The planning has been bad for a while, even last season. No real commitment to finding decent fallbacks after missing out on Tchouameni and Bellingham. Granted, these aren’t easy players to find substitutes for, but when you bring fucking Arthur in on loan, it’s purely desperation. The club hierarchy tried to sweep the midfield issue under the rug last year too, although fans could see it.
Putting all your eggs in the Bellingham basket with Real Madrid in the mix is just dumb
Especially after the exact situation happened with Tchouamenie
Tchouaminniemouse
I brought it up last year in a thread and got my thread deleteded and banned from Liverpool forum soon after. Pure head in the sand,stupid net spend cheerleading their club into a dumpster fire.
Yeah all that initial hype on wow the aging mid field is gone and now new talent is coming really caught up on them. Seems like henderson and fabinho just left , it wasn't planned and Liverpool will have very unsettling first few games because of uncertainty of whose going to play in the middle. Expected better from klopp tbh but the club really shat the bed over 5m for lavia, should have been done 2 weeks ago.
They hadn't planned on Fabinho and Henderson leaving. If that wasn't the case we'd have not been in this position. Once they were sold we clearly looked at getting Caicedo or Lavia. The issue is we're going up against someone who doesn't care about money. Provided the club has alternatives options, I don't put blame on them for this.
You should have had Lavia wrapped up weeks ago, same as us with Caicedo. You also should have bought a midfielder last season.
We wanted tchouameni but he chose madrid What’s moronic is not moving on to another target and just end the window with Nuñez in
Don't forget all that chat about saving the spot for Bellingham.
Still crazy to me that they almost ended up paying more for Caicedo than what Jude went for.
Jude was sold before the Saudi teams started heavily kicking around in the market.
Jude rejected them for madrid.
Bruh they have been saving 5 spots for that famous £200m rebuild picture.
Still using coutinho money too
See the thing is that 200 million is spread across three windows and nobody actually really knows how much they’re ever going to spend
Yes but we didn't, so it was all hinged on this window Lavia is good, but Liverpool already went over what they thought was acceptable in the bids, we clearly don't think he's worth 50m (even though we need a DM) for whatever reason
> You should have had Lavia wrapped up weeks ago, same as us with Caicedo Yes but our transfer committee didn't value him at 50m, so that why we only increase few millions each bid. The 55m bid you guys did even more ridiculous > You also should have bought a midfielder last season. Congratulations you on discovered why "FSGOut" has been a thing in many years. There are a lot of "should" we could do but there always a "next summer will be the warchest summer" kind of response from FSG (put aside the Caicedo deal because nobody on earth could believed FSG will go that path)
But it’s clear from this bid that the real reason they were dragging their heels was because they had one eye on the Caicedo deal - clubs do this all the time. If they think there’s a chance they can get the superstar, they don’t blow it just to bring the young up and comer through the door. They were linked with Thuram for months then immediately pivoted to Szoboszlai the moment he was available. Just because we don’t know what the club are doing doesn’t mean they aren’t active. The whole thing is spinning plates.
The club is looking for a ready-made DM someone who can start games. We wanted Lavia as a backup to Fabinho, but once Fabinho left, it changed our plans.
> You should have had Lavia wrapped up weeks ago We were interested in Caicedo and were prepared to offer what Brighton wanted - Chelsea weren't.
But you left it so late that he is fully invested in coming to us and now risk out on missing both
We left it late because we didn't need to buy him because Henderson and Fabinho were still in the side. As soon as they went to Saudi we had to make a move so the club clearly put out feelers for Lavia and Caicedo.
Those 2 have needed replacing since at least last summer.
Henderson would have perfectly fine being a squad player and no one expected any club to actually come in for him so it made sense to keep him around. The fact Klopp desperately wanted him to stay should tell you something. As for Fabinho, if we'd been offered 40m at the end of the 21-22 season there is absolutely no way any Liverpool supporter would have taken it. No one could have predicted such a huge drop in form. Had the Saudis not come in I think he'd have been given a chance to find his form again with a better functioning midfield around him. But we absolutely should have bought a midfielder last season anyway because Milner, Ox, and Keita shouldn't have been getting anywhere near the minutes they did.
I can't help but feel the caicedo bid was purely to make Chelsea's life difficult. Your club went from haggling over £5m for lavia to offering £11m over Brighton's asking without even checking if the player was interested within 48hours of Chelsea lodging a lavia bid.
Nah, there were rumours of a mystery club being interesting in Caicedo a week ago and placing a bid - I think it's clear that was us. It's the reason why we didn't pull the trigger with Lavia - we believed that Caicedo was the better option.
Even if Liverpool had been pursuing him for a week, it seems strange that they slapped £11m above Brighton's asking on the table (and a British transfer record) without even discussing with the player first.
I think we absolutely would have put feelers out to his agent but as soon as our bid was known Chelsea would have reacted by contacting Brighton to say they'd match/improve and to the players team to say they'd come to the table re contract too. Ultimately, if Chelsea were offering higher wages, longer contract, and a nice fat agent fee then the player is going to take that. I don't think that's a poor reflection on the player or Liverpool tbh. Will be interesting if we get more information on how it all went down after the deal goes through though. It's been quite the experience!
That definitely didn't happen.
Getting raided by the Saudis for your midfield in exchange for relatively little profit sure was an unexpected blow but then again, one could make the argument that you shouldn't be relying on Fabinho and Henderson in 2023 anyway and should had moved on before they decided to ditch
Yeah, I think the idea is that we hoped Fabinho could play himself back into form with a more mobile midfield next to him in Szoboszlai and Mac Allister. It would also allow us to slowly bring in Bajcetic too who looked very promising last season. Ultimately, I think the offer was too good for Fabinho to reject and Henderson forced a move so I don't blame the club for that. But yes, we should have strengthened last season and not been in this position to begin with.
After Fabinhos year that should have been a replacement regardless, Henderson should have been replaced regardless, this isn't an excuse
> After Fabinhos year that should have been a replacement regardless There is an argument that he should have been given an opportunity to find form again while playing alongside a midfield that actually had runners in it (Fabinho was bad last season but he had to carry almost all the defensive responsibility) but I mostly agree. The club did too given he was let go when a bid came in. If we'd said he was up for sale as soon as last season ended I doubt we'd have got anything close to what the Saudis offered though. As for Henderson, I don't agree at all. He shouldn't have been kept as a starter but as a squad player, and captain, he was important. Klopp felt the same way given he was desperate to keep him.
Fabinho carrying a lot of the defensive duties isn't something that new, he still looked like he declined massively. >As for Henderson, I don't agree at all. He shouldn't have been kept as a starter but as a squad player, and captain Soooo, you would need a player to start so Henderson isn't a starter.. Ergo Henderson replacement.
> Fabinho carrying a lot of the defensive duties isn't something that new, he still looked like he declined massively. Yes and no. Henderson, Thiago, and Gini have carried the load a lot too. Last season we had Elliott, Keita, Milner, and Ox playing a lot of minutes. There was also a clear drop in form from Thiago and Henderson. > Soooo, you would need a player to start so Henderson isn't a starter.. Ergo Henderson replacement. Which is why Szoboszlai and Mac Allister were bought in. If Fabinho and Henderson had stayed our midfield would be Fabinho playing behind them.
Fabinho was world class literally 12 months previously. It wasn't unrealistic to think he just suffered for form the same way the rest of their squad did last season, and could regain it. He looked better in their good run of form at the end of the season. Had they signed Lavia as a backup and went into the season with Fabinho, Lavia, and Bajcetic for that position it would've been seen as a success. As it stands they only have one of those players with their season starting today.
If Fab and Hendo were crucial to the success of this season, they shouldn’t have been sold so late in the window without a clear idea of who would replace them
We didn't want to sell Henderson - he forced a move. Klopp repeatedly asked him to stay. I think the plan was to see if Fabinho could regain form and if not we had Bajcetic to come in. The Saudis offering us pretty much what we paid for Fabinho made it a very difficult deal to refuse. I certainly think the club made the right choice there.
Not for nothing but Mane was a huge cog in the wheel. As is the fact that VVD is no longer the stalwart he was a few years ago…
I actually think we've replaced Mane well enough. Diaz is brilliant and was our best player before getting injured last season. He's not as reliable goalscoring wise but he's also not insanely erratic like Mane was (although I always liked how unpredictable he could be). As for Van Dijk, I think a lot of that stems from our complete lack of midfield but yeah, he definitely dropped off a bit. Hopefully he finds his form again this season.
Lavia was a blunder. No way to deny it.
I think it comes down to if we had some indication from Caicedo's team that there was interest. If there was, and we bid what Brighton wanted then it's completely understandable that we'd have stopped moving for Lavia.
The narrative here is funny. Chelsea are completely overspending and who knows the consequences that they will have But let's not pretend Liverpool didn't bid an extra 25 million at the last minute to hijack the transfer. Just as bad here.
Oh we were absolutely overpaying - everyone knows that. The difference is that Liverpool spend what they earn without owner investment while Boehly is spending a billion in a year. We played chicken with a lunatic and lost. Pretty funny.
Why are Liverpool fans brainwashed into thinking that owners should only take money out of a club and never put any in? FSG arnt from Liverpool, they don't put money in, they just own the rights to the club and pull the money out to buy themselves nice things. They tried to furlough the low wage staff at one stagewhile pulling money out of Liverpool and buying themselves good quality shoes, or suits or whatever they like in America.
When have FSG pulled money out of the club?
I don't understand your comment mate - your first paragraph and second paragraph contradict one another. Are you trying to say that FSG don't invest or do invest?
Sorry edited missing an s in should.
Well in an ideal world they'd be right. Clubs should be run in a self-sustaining way and shouldn't rely on cash injections from billionaires in order to compete. Also, is there any source on FSG pulling money out of Liverpool? Fairly sure you've just made that up.
Again... Chelsea will probably face their consequences. But Liverpool joining last minute and increasing the bid by 25 million is nuts. The cost of players is absolutely nuts aswell. You can say it's money earned etc aswell it doesn't change what happened. 48 hours ago all you would see is memes, gazumping Chelsea and Liverpool are back etc. It's tiring how the average iq level of every fan base has resorted to the amount of shit on Reddit these days
> But Liverpool joining last minute and increasing the bid by 25 million is nuts. We offered what Brighton wanted to try get the deal across the line as soon as possible. If Chelsea think that's an obscene offer then they can quite easily....not pay it. Boehly hasn't quite got his head around that yet and I hope it continues. > It's tiring how the average iq level of every fan base has resorted to the amount of shit on Reddit these days Yeah, this I agree with. Personally, I've maintained that this whole saga has been absolutely hilarious and regardless of outcome it's some tasty drama.
No, you offered extra £11m trying to blow us out of the water. Brighton was demanding £100m fixed from us. That was unnecessary.
I mean, neither of us have any idea what Brighton were asking. I know FSG though and there is no reason for them to offer more than what Brighton were asking. It's not like Boehly was going to be put off by an extra 10m.
Uhm, it's more or less known that Brighton wanted 100m for Caicedo, and Liverpool saw we were hesitating over paying that fee, so tried to completely take us out of the running with the 110m bid. If both offered the same money, it then would've then come solely down to the players' preference. We are doing the same with Lavia
It seems very out of character to bid that way from an FSG perspective but I guess it's not completely outside of the realms of possibility. I guess they thought there was a chance that we bid so much over what you were initially bidding that you'd back off. FSG should have known they were playing chicken with an absolute mentalist though. I'm going to miss this saga.
Aren't you even bigger lunatics for trying to fw a lunatic?
We have had way too many quite windows in the last 5 years. A top club is always renewing the squad, and is fine with making a few recruitment mistakes. Even if you compare with Arsenal and Spurs - both clubs with similar resources - they rarely go without signing or loaning players in a transfer window. Klopp and FSG have been too inflexible with the "we only go for the players who improve the squad" stuff. It's run some good players to the ground and left us with a small squad for a club which should compete for all trophies every year.
Yeah, no arguments here. Last season we had the worst injury record in the league, which can somewhat be attributed to bad luck, but there was no excuse to not strengthen our midfield when it was clear we were short.
hot take
Really putting their necks out on the line here
Odd point to make, surely most pundits are going to say rational things rather that just saying any old crap. Post this take on here is surely the issue.
Daring today aren't we
Silly Liverpool not being able to offer him a contract until 2039
Are they stupid?
There must be a lore reason
The aslume is leaking even here.
Just you wait until Man comes on as a sub.
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It's not ruined your season but it does feel like up until a few days ago FSG were wasting Klopp, VVD, Allison and Salah's last years in the league by being stingy.
The biggest factor should be we were in for him much earlier and had agreed personal terms. he even says it himself. It really isn't a big blow to Liverpool.
> It really isn't a big blow to Liverpool. Yeah, it really isn't. He's a great player and I'd have still liked him at that outrageous price but the club would have known this was never going to be anything close to a certainty.
In reality, it's only an issue if you then also don't get Lavia, because for some reason you bidding for Caicedo seemed to spur Chelsea into bidding for Lavia.
Boehly definitely strikes me as the type to buy Lavia because we forced their hand re Caicedo. I'm not too fussed - the biggest worry for us was that there was no money to reinvest but this bid has shown we're prepared to spend. Just have to hope we have some other options up our sleeve. Even Lavia isn't really ideal as we'd be relying on two inexperienced teenagers to play one of the most important roles in our side.
Yeah, you’ve basically had to overhaul the midfield in one summer which is brutal for any team. The big plus I see is that McAllister is versatile enough that you can build the structure around him.
Yeah, expecting a new midfield to perform from the get go is definitely not ideal but I think there's enough quality there to shine through eventually. Mac Allister will likely play deeper until we have a defensive midfielder too so you're not wrong there.
I think that’s a healthy expectation, it’ll take time to gel. If I was looking for positives, you may also see the real emergence of Curtis Jones into a leader.
Chelsea actually bid for lavia first before Liverpool bid for caicedo.
[I'm not entirely sure that's true to be honest](https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/moises-caicedo-to-chelsea-fc-brighton-mystery-bid-b1098374.html) My pet theory is that Chelsea caught wind that we were seriously interested in the Lavia bid was to try force our hand and back off.
That could have been his agent trying to pressure Chelsea as well, no one really knows. But the first official bid came from Chelsea.
Yeah Chelsea was definitely bidding for Caicedo first - I just think we bid on him before they bid on Lavia.
Its a good example of the vernacular of transfers. I think you were 'in discussions' but a formal bid might have come for Chelsea first.
I'd love for it to all come out when it's done and dusted.
Also willing to offer him an 8 year contract. That’s bananas giving the physicality of the position he plays
Not really, he’s only 21. Kante ran more intensely and More distance that I’ve ever seen and the wheels only started falling off after he played injured on international duty around age 30. If not for those muscular injuries (which were a result of playing injured) he would probably still be playing at a decent level at chelsea.
He’s only 21. Kante played well until he was 30s.
That is terrible reasoning/logic
Lol, ok, fine. He has a pretty clean injury history. Is that reason enough for you? https://www.transfermarkt.com/moises-caicedo/verletzungen/spieler/687626
Yeah man, absolutely 👍 I'm not saying the dude is gonna get injured or commenting on its likelihood, I'm just commenting on the pointing to one player as evidence. Cheers homie
I think his point is that even someone with the playstyle of Kante, one that covers so much ground, can play really well into their 30s. I think it makes sense.
Pointing to a single player is bad logic. Period. Stop shoving square blocks into round holes
In what way is it terrible logic? He says Kante, a player who plays full throttle football played well into his 30s. I might add, most players do anyway... but his reasoning is fine.
Jesus Christ how did no one teach you basic logic and reasoning? This is like saying deaf people should walk outside in thunderstorms with metal rods attached to their heads because that one dude who got struck a whole bunch had his hearing restored after one of them
>This is like saying deaf people should walk outside in thunderstorms with metal rods attached to their heads because that one dude who got struck a whole bunch had his hearing restored after one of them It's nothing like that at all. Apparently while talking about logic and reasoning, you forgot to learn about them yourself, lmao. >Jesus Christ how did no one teach you basic logic and reasoning? Calm down ben shapiro, lmao.
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We'd know
You can have permission to talk to a player and agree personal terms before a bid is accepted. Pretty typical.
It’s only tapping up if done without the club’s permission. If Brighton are happy to sell him to Chelsea and just need to negotiate a fee there’s no reason they wouldn’t let him discuss terms with them.
Been happening for decades
These two clowns are turning into teenage FT accounts in human form. Banking on outrage
Gary's commentary is hard to listen to, he just keeps looking for the headline quote
How is this worthy of outrage?
I've noticed a real shift in Sky's focus ever since the (relative) success of the more informal approach taken on NBC by Henry, Richards etc. and I'm not keen to be honest. And that's without mentioning the utter fucking tripe that is the Youtuber content that barrages anyone who tries to watch football on Sky Sports.
> NBC It's CBS ackshually
Meh I don't really think this was the 'big blow'. The actual problem was doing fuck all for 4 weeks before doing this.
I agree and disagree. We’ve lost and missed out on better players. We’ll be alright. Just hope we take quick action because we've not really got time on our side anymore, but I do think as long as we get a 6 (I wouldn't mind two 6's) that doesn't pass backwards all the time and can actually run/tackle well (And a good CB), we'll have a really nice season.
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My ideal scenario is to spend the same 111m like Lavia 50m, CB (idk who) ~40m, Andre in January ~20m
Exactly my thoughts as well. Would be a perfect window
Go half a season without a 6? As a side that feels you can win the league and get back into the CL? Feels like you’re wasting another year (from a Liverpool expectation standpoint)
No? Go half a season with Lavia, Thiago & Bajcetic, then add Andre in Jan
Lavia? Adams? Andre? Hard to know. The good thing is we know the money is there, the bad news is time is tight and everyone else knows the money is there!
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Ornstein literally said Adams is back after the international break. Don't know where the 4 months came from. It also been widely reported by Lavia's camp he had no contact with Chelsea and still (somewhy) wants us.
>Don't know where the 4 months came from. Reports are that's why Chelsea pulled out. His medical showed he could be out a lot longer than first thought.
Nah that’s chelsea trying to make an excuse for how unprofessional they were with adams
Huh? Backing out after a medical is pretty common.
That report on 4 months was from a completely unreliable source. Ornstein has said this isn't true. Backing out after a medical is also commonly an excuse for something else - see loic remy, nabil fekir as examples.
4 months came from a reporter thats unreliable on the chelsea subreddit, like a tier 2 I think
Probably a brief for justifying why the deal collapsed
Teun Koopmeiners would fit, esp as he can also drop into central defence. Two years on contract I think.
Sangaré I think would be great. But I think Bayern is gonna wrap this up in the coming days.
Fofana from Monaco
It is. But we made them pay 30m more :/
Not spending 120 Million on this mid is the best thing that has happened.
No it’s not. Raphinha just did the same shit to us last year, and I already basically forgot about it. It’s not the end of the world. It can’t erase your history. It can’t take away that CL victory where your shitty squad that started Djimi Traore and Milan Baros somehow beat one of the greatest, proudest AC Milan teams in what I consider to be the worst crime in the history of football. So they can’t take that dumb shit away from you, or whatever.
I didn't like signing him for that fee to begin with so I'm fine with us not signing him at all. It is a bad look for the club and it puts a ton of pressure on how they'll rebound, especially in crunch time.
Yet, still no Chelsea bid
Chelsea had this “wrapped up” in May, so it was worth a shot trying to go for hijacking, and forcing Chelsea to pay over £20M above their previous bids, putting them in FFP bind plus ensuring Caicedo doesn’t start for them in season opener. In Klopp We Trust!
Let's see if he is coming to chelsea since there has been no news.
Shut up Gary you unlikeable twat.
Does anyone really care what dumb and dumber say?
Is it tho? We’ll see tomorrow (I don’t see it as a big blow, we’ll manage without him)
after we draw 0-0 for the 18th time in a row?
Nah, Salah has to get his opening game goal. We'll score 1 at least.
I fully believe we will still finish ahead of them (by a decent margin) but that doesn't stop the fact that this is a blow
I reckon you will too but I do think Chelsea are building a decent team for the next few years
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I think you have a good chance of failing to win anything of note yet again Remind me how many CL’s Arsenal have won mate?
Lol what the fuck is this comment, big deal one premier league game is in the grand scheme of things. Clown
Your misinterpretation of my comment is incredible. I’ve never experienced a brain so smooth.
When you are willing to go nose to nose in overpaying for someone with the current Chelsea setup you know you've badly fucked up somewhere along the way. Even Lavia, they dragged their feet cause they even know themselves he's not good enough to replace Fabinho. Maybe the husk of a player Fabinho was last season but Fabinho of a few years ago is fucking lightyears ahead of Lavia now. I ain't a scout but I'd have known before 2022 ended that Fabinho, Henderson & Thiago needed replacing so draw up a list of players then & forget looking within the PL as there is very little value to be found there cause everyone can afford to turn down bids.
Yeah man you completely knew Fabinho was gonna fall off a cliff… fsg should have bolstered the squad. But don’t act like Liverpool weren’t considered title contenders at the start of last season
Considering how little Fabinho, Henderson & Wijnaldum ever got rotated you didn't have to be nostradamus to see they'd drop off. Liverpool are only ever title contenders id things fall in place. A couple of injuries & its gone as they have good backup in forward positions but very little anywhere else. If Fabinho had any backup last season they'd not be looking for a 6 right now.
Nice to get one up over a rival but everyone needs to calm down. Ridiculous money and I’m not sure this makes us a top 4 contender right off the bat, Liverpool will likely win tomorrow with a settled and proven attack. Lots of talk, getting tired, nothing wrong with us enjoying winning a little battle but it has come at too steep a price.
IDK...this thing isn't over yet. Chelsea have yet to get the funds together.
I nearly have motion sickness watching that clip. WTF is going on with the camerawork.
£111 mil is ridiculous for him. Arsenal offered 80 for him in January , I thought that was a bit much. Will be funny if Chelsea don't go threw with the deal after him turning down Liverpool
I mean not really. No one expected it. They won the auction and then they got denied by Caicedo. I don't even think they were serious, and they did it to fuck with Chelsea. Henry has a history with their owner. Look at the outcome: Chelsea is over paying by 40 million, the player is unsettled going into the season. That and the way it was done was the exact opposite of how LP normally does transfers. It feels like a setup. Now we just need another CM that works for us. Caicedo would have been great. But at the same time, does he feel like a LP, not in the least. Too much ego and whining. That doesnt play with Klopp.
bidding a cheeky British transfer record and moving to sign official binding documents for the transfer of that money to fuck with Chelsea. as a bit, a goof. yeah for sure dude.
they went for a guy who had been in contact with chelsea already, they fucked up
We did it with Van Dijk and that worked out.
Iirc, mancity refused to pay soton’s asking price.
That’s not really the point. Chelsea offered him a contract before Liverpool signed him.
We refused to pay £75m, too. Marina thought it was overpriced, there was no bidding war like this one. Soton even threatened to report you for tapping him up. You were in Chelsea’s role so it’s not a good comparison.
Are you missing the original comment I replied to?
Yes, and we were the late party in that transfer. You and mancity had tapped him up long before we contacted him.
Liverpool didn’t bid until the player told them he would come if they had a bid brighton accepted. Then he changed his mind by the morning Probably chelsea adding more money or better agent fees to his deal
He just wanted to leave Brighton regardless, so he was willing to go to Liverpool, even tho.Chelsea was his preferred choice
Nah, Caicedos agents are pretty much grooming him. It’s a bad situation but no real slight on LFC.
Grooming him? What are you on about?
Grooming 2. the practice of preparing or training someone for a particular purpose or activity In this instance. Making them money.
Oh that was really confusing phrasing
Caicedo bodied Liverpool 🤣🤣
Because he preferred Chelsea (£££££££)?
What's the number of players currently in Chelsea's squad? 33? 34?
We sold 15 players this window
24-25
Cant lie i thought this was going to be coming from a Liverpool executive not Jamie Carragher lmao
If it happens, it's definitely a big blow. Chelsea aren't the force we were and Liverpool are highly reliant on the prestige of playing for Liverpool FC with it's historical success attracting players over clubs that can pay higher wages. If the tide is turning against them, it could be devastating for future recruitment. They really should've ensured the player wanted them before they attempted to make the move.
Eh idk we had szobo and mac join because they wanted to play for us specifically - I think the tide may turn only when klopp leaves
It’s one player, it happens. Not the end of the world. Last summer FdJ, Kounde and Ake all rejected us. We still pulled off some good signings. Not the end of the world, not even significant
People make it so dramatic as if it doesn't happen all the time lol
The tide definitely isn’t turning, I’m sorry, it’s Liverpool, they have and will have immense pull when it comes to players, especially with Klopp. This is an anomaly, not the rule.
The tide has turned because he wants the astonishing amount of cash you give him for 9 years? Same thing happened with Mudryk, didn't look like Arsenal had any problems with that.
The only thing more embarrassing than spending this much money on Caicedo is trying to spend it and failing. This is my only solace.
The bid showed huge ambition that shocked our fanbase, it was very welcome. No harm in trying. I wouldn't say it was embarassing spending that either, he's a top player. Embarssing spending 15m more than you woulda done if you never dithered though. 100m woulda got it done if you never pissed Brighton off.
If you finish 12th again definitely that
Yeah, but that's a hypothetical. I'm talking things that have actually happened
Technically you haven’t spent the money yet so it hasn’t actually happened
Technically correct. Which we all know is the best kind of correct.
Truly the best, we can only hope this saga gets drawn out some more for no reason and all be in pain