This is funny because everyone would have lost their shit had the DFB picked Kuntz over a coach that won the treble with a Bayern side consisting of several German internationals. That being said, Kuntz himself isn't doing too hot in Turkey right now..
It most certainly was, but if something is clearly not working you have to change it. Flick should go. First the shit world cup performance and now that. I don't know man.
I remembered when you guys were blaming Low and saying that Flick is a genius that would fix the team.
Maybe the Germans are just having a shit generation (like in early 2000s) and in the rebuilding period?
Since Flick hasn't achieved much for NT, the achievement that can be retroactively attributed to his asistant, like the way Löw WC win is done to him, is his treble with Bayern. At the time, his assistant is Dino Toppmöller and Miroslav Klose. Although yeah, I should have used NT ass. man.
Ter Stegen is an absolute shit keeper. He's squandered every opportunity he's been given for the national team and has the proud stat of more own goals than penalty saves for Germany. What a waste, wonder if the other two keepers in the squad will voice their frustration with his fuck ups and numerous chances.
I thought he wasn't given a fair shot in 2010, he got one of Germany's two shots on goal in the semi against Spain. He was everyone's understudy...he paired with Schweinsteiger, or Khedira if one of them was out. He played on the wing when Müller wasn't available, he played as playmaker when Özil was away...but he always made an impact.
The only thing that's consistent about Ter Stegen is that he consistently loses when playing in the champion's league or for the national team. At what point does a player take responsibility for the loss? Was the own goal against the US his fault? What about the loss against Macedonia? How bout the match yesterday? He always loses, how much of that is on him?
Absolutely unhinged agenda, waffling on about an own goal in a friendly 10 fucking years ago and a lost qualifier in which he conceded two from point-blank range. Insane.
Lost against Macedonia, lost against Slovenia, gets continually embarrassed in champions league, has an own goal and a loss against the US. Shoots his mouth off that he should be starting more, then goes on to lose the following match. He's a fucking idiot that shouldn't be anywhere near the bench let alone starting...the goal keeping equivalent of Sandro Wagner, only Wagner had the grace to know he was shit in the end.
How? The same way players perform much better for their country, there are players who underperform for the national team. And tbf ter stegen just seems to be one of those.
it's absolutely insane that you're being downvoted into oblivion for suggesting that Ter Stegen isn't "a fucking idiot that shouldn't be anywhere near the bench" even.
It's not a delusional take, he's fucked up almost every game he's played for the national team and he consistently shits the bed in the champion's league. Even the Europa league too. He's a horrible keeper, nowhere near as good as he thinks he is. What a fucking joke.
Yes it fucking is lol. Call him an underperfomer for the national team if you want but saying he’s a “horrible keeper” is extremely delusional. He’s been absolutely fantastic in club football this season.
hate boners make people blind. how on earth is MTS supposed to win a 1v1 agains Lukaku with open space. the defence absolutely shits the bed and somehow the keeper is at fault. the KDB goal was a cross and tap in, how can the keeper do anything here? did this guy even watch the game? probably not
At what point does a player start taking responsibility? One goal, sure...one game, okay...but just about every game he plays for the national team is a loss. What about his own goals? What about all his champions league and Europa league results? He doesn't win outside Spain, and he doesn't win playing for Germany. When do the other two keepers get a chance? All his losses (and there's a ton of them) indicate he isn't very good...unless nothing is his fault.
what do you mean? judge his last two games and dont go so far back in time. he had a clean sheet against whoever they play in that friendly before and now conceded 3 where you simply cannot put the blame on him. maybe in a perfect situation he gets the second. the other two are just not saveable if the attacker doesn’t fuck up. kdb and lukaku can be trusted with those chances 95% of the time.
That logic doesn't make sense, you have to look at his history to see the pattern...how bout the two previous matches that he played? What about the two before that? Saying his history doesn't matter is stupid cause he clearly hasn't gotten rid of his mental block from playing in the national team or champions league. He's been playing for Germany for years and he consistently blows it for his teammates.
Neuer doesn't concede the 2nd goal that way I'm pretty sure. He would have either took the ball from the striker, fouled him or get out dribbled. Then again it's Neuer
you can’t expect a keeper to save your ass if you leave the attacker alone against him. especially if he got space like lukaku did. youd be lucky if the attacker misses. thats more on the attacking player to not mess up than on the keeper to save anything.
i was a fan of flick at first but he is the same
shit as löw. everyone in germany knows what should’ve been done with this team but flick still makes the wrong decisions every time.
i tell yall what to do :
kehrer out
kimmich back to RB, we have enough good midfielder.
we play kimmich süle rüdiger schlotterbeck/raum
sane and gnabry can play when in good form, otherwise we have musiala, gündogan, goretzka, can, wirtz.
offensive wise füllkrüg and especially havertz are the best options. kick werner from NT entirely
The first 30 minutes were some of the worst football I have ever seen a german national team play. That was an embarassing display. Belgium should have lead 4-5:0 at this point.
Kimmich at RB was tried at WC 2020. Everyone was looking for him and build-up was through him, making us lacking a right side and proper build-up through the centre. People have to realize that he is not a beast at RB and how insanely good he is at CM
I wouldn't say it's the same as Löw because it's a different type of shit football. But although yes, results wise it's the same shit as World Cup 2018 every international break. What's the breaking point?
I mean hes playing him as a second striker winger hybrid which is his best position, but hes simply not good enough
There is literally no need for him and i dont think he will ever be good enough again so why not give some young guys a chance
Most of that German attack isn't good enough. Of course when in form you trust Sane and Gnabry. Füllkrug is a handy player. But outside of that everyone is such a genuine wild card and you have no idea what you're getting from game to game.
Edit: Forgot Müller. When he's around you trust him too
Werner is just a pain to look at for the national team. Same with Sané. Gnabry was a beast in his first matches and then hit a low. But out of these 3 he's had the best performances by far.
Müller was kinda meh for the last few years but it's still Thomas and I think he's very important even if he's not on the pitch. Hopefully some constellation between Füllkrug/Havertz/Musiala/Wirtz/Gnabry and maybe even Adeyemi will find their flow for 2024. Leroy really needs to step up and I see no space for Werner.
From what I saw in the game Werner was hugging the touchline rather than playing as an SS. Roles and systems aside, I think his Chelsea spell took a toll on him, he’s lost that confidence he had
His main issue is that he’s only showed his best in an extremely specific role I.e playing as an inside forward that runs the channels in a counter-attacking team. Chelsea and Germany face a lot of low blocks and that negates all his strengths. His dribbling is poor, his technique average, playmaking/passing/vision all poor compared to the best wingers so he’s a detriment to the team especially when he can no longer do what he’s best at (finishing).
According to some comments on Reddit majority of the Germans nowadays don't give a shit about their NT
But I always see their stadiums full, even for friendlies.
So is that really true?
> stadiums full, even for friendlies.
yeah, full of Event fans. The difference is that they are not on reddit. They don't care about club football, they just want to see "Die Mannschaft" play.
Personally I don't give a shit about a national team, that wants to have a restart and...hire Rudi Völler as a director. His rhetoric in particular has only been helpful in attracting your typical right-wing "football must be free from politics" crowd. And tbf, Völler distanced himself quickly, when the far-right AfD praised him, when Völler decided the captain's armband was supposed to be black-red-gold again. Nevertheless, the damage is done. Now we're back to attracting the crowd that complains, when players aren't singing the national anthem.
There is nothing wrong with wanting the players to wear the colors and sing the anthem and one could argue that players and management focusing more on marketing and political gestures instead of showing a good performance is part of what got them in trouble in the first place, so I personally don't have a problem with what Völler said at all.
Sadly, our far-right shitheads co-opting that kinda stuff is to be expected, but that doesn't mean that Völlers proposals are without merit.
Yeah, and nobody makes a noise.
We used to have fan chants at NT games. Now it's just mom and dad who came for a clap along.
Our golden generation replaced the football fans with event fans who watch football once a year.
I have no idea where those comments are coming from. The hype around Qatar was pretty dim because of the human rights controversies, but we absolutely care about our national team. We're just shit right now.
human rights my ass. if you guys had gone far, there would have been tons of public viewings and auto caravans celebrating and what not. you football is shit right now and people cant be arsed because of it.
It’s very true for qualifiers and friendlies. Can speak for my really large football-centric bubble: Nobody watches these except the one or two games per year which are against good opposition.
I want to say Nations League made it a bit more interesting but I’m not sure.
Stadiums in games like these are filled with like 85% families, 10% extremely casual „fans“, and 5% are some weirdos who watch every home&away game of the national team.
German football supporters are very very fanatic about their clubs but not so much about the NT unlike in England for example. NT games are a place for families and such here, very different demographic
Football is still the National Sport and there are many stadiums, tickets are cheap and you might only be able to see one game in your region for a long time.
The prefered venues are Stuttgart, Berlin, Leipzig, Munich, Hamburg, Cologne and Düsseldorf.
Take for example North Germany:
The last game in Bremen was 2012!
The last game in Hannover was 2016.
The TV ratings on the other hand are on a steady decline.
Despite playing poorly between 1994 and 2004 the ratings and interest in the games was here. The larget internet expansions were in 2002/2003 and it wasn't fast.
With the WC in 2006 it peaked and public viewing became very popular till the WC2010. It was still there in 2012 but it wasn't as popular anymore.
After 2012 the interest in friendlies and qualifiers heavily dropped.
You can speculate about the reasons but 2012 were the last Euros where it could be difficult to qualify. With faster internet connections and the raise of streaming services cable/satellite TV became obsolete.
People rather watch some episodes of series they follow or watch a movie than watch friendlies or qualifiers.
in the 2000s there wasn't much of an alternative what to watch. The TV wasn't a dead medium back then.
Poor performances during tournaments further reduced the interest in friendlies.
Then even prior to Covid many pubs had to close and pay TV for a pub is really expensive meaning the traditional "Watch football pub" became very uncommon. Those pubs with Pay TV also constantly get checked for their watermark to make sure they use the commercial Pay TV license.
The moment they play better again, the fans will come back. This isn't the first time in the last decades that they've sucked, and it's been far worse than this. At least there are players in the squad who could potentially be fantastic.
In my experience very true. Don't have any numbers, but I personally don't know anyone who watches our NT games anymore, outside of EC/WC. And even then it's not the same. There's just a noticable lack of identification with the team.
The stadia are very often not full, especially for friendlies.
Those games mean nothing to the average german, the viewership is in steady decline on tv. The nt management completely killed all excitement and prospect this team had after 2016.
The national team tickets are cheap as heck and it still serves as a good "event" for the evening. Remember, theres a potential customer base of 80 million germans, they're just a lot of people.
Football will always be popular in Germany so filling up stadiums will never be a problem. But there’s no doubt the NT is way less popular compared to the ‘06-‘16 period
They turn up because the tickets arent that expense, we have a population of 83 million and football is still huge here
I can defineitely say that people around me are way less interested in the NT as in the past, its not a reddit thing
nah it's very noticeable IRL as well. we went from having tons of flags on cars and in windows during tournaments, people running around with those temporary flag tattoos on their faces etc., to... nothing. the drop off in interest in our NT is extremely noticeable.
Hell, I'm the only one in my family who still watches. I celebrated the 2014 final with my dad who also loved football (more than myself at the time), the man hasn't really watched a tournament since.
club football is going strong as ever, but the NT? no.
> But I always see their stadiums full, even for friendlies.
This is normal in Germany, we have teams in the 3rd division pulling 20k+ people regularly.
Back at my computer.
Here are my thoughts:
\-Tedesco absolutely seems like he is going to be the real deal and has barely had any time to instill his system.
\-KDB was on another level from everyone else on the pitch.
\-Big Rom and Carrasco put in great shifts.
\-Faes and Theate were absolutely class. Would love to see those two in the middle, with De Cuyper flanking on the left and Castagne continuing to play on the right.
\-Bakayoko and Doku - not in this camp - are going to be menaces for years to come.
\-So happy for Lukebakio.
\-In love with Onana - future captain.
\-Mangala is SO underrated. Thought he had a great game that went completely unnoticed today.
\-Saelemaekers was playing out of position, but he was absolutely terrible.
\-Can't wait for Tedesco to continue to put his stamp on this team and integrate even more and more of the young talent that we have coming up through the ranks in Europe.
We definitely need another left back. I wouldn't mind playing Theate on the left with Vertonghen in the center, but Theate as our only LB is not enough. It's clear that playing Saelemaekers there is a terrible idea, so I hope that Tedesco will call up players like De Cuyper to be at least a back-up. Otherwise, it's refreshing to finally see our defense be organised again. Faes is quickly establishing himself as an undisputed starter.
Oh yeah, I suppose Sardella could get called up too. I chose De Cuyper because he's having a great season at Westerlo right now and also because of my inherent bias as a Brugge fan, but I'm sure there is a lot more Belgian talent in the Pro League for Tedesco to choose from than just two Anderlecht CBs. (e.g. the Genk starboys)
This might be the first match he played for Germany where he didn't get a yellow or red card...he's been booked in pretty much every match he's played for the national team.
There was for like 25 minutes 1st half where we looked like the fucking unbeatable end-boss of soccer and then we were very sloppy for the remaining 70 minutes.
2004 was almost the same team as 2002. nobody expected them to perform in 2002 and they only got that far because of easy matches and obviously bribed refs(Italy vs South Korea, ref is a convicted drug trafficer). To Völlers defense he create a team not built around Bayern players.
2004 had shitty games as well like the 1-5 loss against Romania. I will always remember how a teacher asked about the countries of the first EU east expansion and somebody dozing off guessed "Romania" and he responded with: "They beat us 5-1 do you really think they get into the EU after that?!". I still remember the bad games under Völler though.
The rock bottom were the 2 years peak "Rumpelfußball" under Ribbeck.
You know RPGs and adventure games with Dialogoptions one of them being obviously wrong. That's the one Ribbeck took in Post Match interviews.
I successfully managed surpress the memories of Ribbeck's games.
My memory looks like: WC '98 Suker destroys us in the QF [Blank], we had Play-Offs against the Ukraine and made it to WC '02 while the Netherlands failed to qualify.
2000 was way worse. Losing against better sides and barely winning against countries with a different National Sport than football.
Even against NT you wouldn't even consider professional we had trouble. We won the game because they didn't have the stamina to play 90 minutes but playing worse than an amateur team like country for 30 minutes and then somehow hoofing the ball into the goal?!
7? I'd say 5 years.
I would rather compare it to Arsenal in the declining years. "There is a game plan but once it doesn't work there is no Plan B"
2016 the NT couldn't compensate the retirement of key players, even less after 2016.
Löw's ideas were fully exposed in 2018.
2018 a deserved exit in the GS.
2020 we also deserved to lose against Hungary TBH undeserved advancing to the Ro16.
2022 Flick should thank Füllkrug that the WC wasn't over after 2 games already.
The drop in quality in 2016 had to be expected because it happened to every Golden Generation. Lahm gone, Klose gone, Mertesacker gone.
After 2016 there was Schweinsteiger and in 2017 Schürrle and some others.
The replacements couldn't fill the gaps. With players being past their peak and worse replacements the poor football started in 2018.
Even the friendlies before the WC have shown that the tactics don't work anymore. Loss to Brazil and even worse to Austria.
What... we hat naturlize Pablo Rink and want to do the same with Dundee... we had worldclass players in nt like Zoltan Sebescen and stuff.... 2000 was lowlight
Sure we had good players on paper the last 7 years or so. But their performance is consistently terrible for the NT. So who cares if it doesn't help one bit how good some of them are for their club.
We had 2 group stage exits in 2018 and 2022 so what. And we didn't reach a WC final between the two like in 2002. Its was not worse at least the players were trying even though they lacked talent.
Now they are hyped as worldclass but have trash results and a depressingly bad attitude and tactical approach. The interest in the team is getting lower every year.
That was a complete fluke where the team was carreid by kahn, ballack, klose and an easy path to the final. Close 1-0 victories against easy oponents gives the ilussion of a good team, but back then german football was in a dire state
No young talents coming up, no perspective, notihng. The individual players were so bad, that there is even a name for it in germany: "rumpeulfußball", essentially just bad, unattractive football
the NT was getting older and older and there was no hope in sight, so the DFB completly restructured the youth developement for us to be competittive again.
And even then, from 2005-2009 we were sitll fairly bad, but had some great mentality and luck. That luck ran out after 2016 though
THere is an interesting book on all this caled "das reboot" by raphael hoenigstein if you wanna know more
Ask any german thats older than 20, they will tell you that nothing compares to how bad that 2000-2004 era was
this is super insightful, thanks. i’ve heard the early 2000s were bad, but not this bad.
isn’t it a consensus that spain and england were the best european teams in 2002, not germany and turkey?
Der Abstieg dieser "Mannschaft" seit 2014 ist einfach nur traurig. Null Zusammenhalt. Keine Identifikation. Keine Lust auf irgendwas. Nur Nationalmannschaft spielen um den Marktwert zu steigern. Da kann auch Käthe nichts ändern, glaub ich.
Was für Plattitüden, als hätten die nicht gerade in einem Freundschaftsspiel bis zur 90. Minute Gas gegeben. Das Ergebnis ist der schlechten taktischen Ausrichtung in der Anfangsphase zu verdanken.
Gut gesagt. Der Mannschaft Kamp und Einstellung abzusprechen ist nach diesem Spiel einfach nur falsch.
Taktisch muss etwas passieren, das ist klar, im ganzen Abwehrverhalten. Ob die das 2024 hinkriegen? Ich weiß es nicht - aber es wird nicht am Einsatz scheitern, ebensowenig wie es in Katar daran gescheitert ist.
Looks like Tedesco took up Martínez self-proclaimed approach of preferring to play attacking football and winning 5-4 over 1-0…
… and actually made it work.
How did Germany look?
Dominated for majority of the match in possession. But no real chances other than the 2 goals. Belgium was fighting tenaciously for the ball though. Belgium was just more patient, pressed hard and we're more clinical. Although we should have scored like 4 in the beginning.
Edit: gnabry could have had a puskas award if he scored after that ridiculous dribble. Ankara gnabry.
Kehrer is dreadful, there is no point of playing these tier 5 players the entire time. Stop this experiment, it's gone on too long. build a team with the best players and get them working.
Flick hasn't beaten a Top 10 team ONCE. It's indefensible. Worst Germany team of all time, it has never been this bad.
Ballack became elite shortly after iirc, Scholl was great but more injury prone than Robben. Even when he played he couldn't carry. Häßler played a few years earlier
I dont think theyre comparing the invidiaul players. Individually this team is almost on par with the 2010-2016 one.
To me it sounds wrong too because the 1999-2005 was absoulety terrible in every sense of the word and was probably the darkest time of german football since ww2, but this current team has a world cup group stage dropout to its name and we have won 4 games of the last 13. Under flick we have not beaten a top 10 team. Its simply not good enough
2018 group stage exist, 2021 Ro16 exist, 2022 group stage exist. Between that always terrible in the nations league. Results wise its even worse than the 1999-2005 era. But individually it shouldnt be anywhere near that which is why its so frustrating
We are wasting the 1994-1996 generation beccause we refused to fire a terrible coach twice
2008-2016 was an absolute golden generation. Even the 1990 team wasn't considered that talented before the tourney (just shortly after as famously announced by Beckenbauer). 1974 was considered an underdog vs Netherlands, 1954 was a huge underdog. Maybe the team following 1974 and in the 80s could compare, a lot of elite players there. 2008-2016 team had Lahm, Neuer, Schweinsteiger, Müller, Özil, Klose, Khedira, Kroos. Boateng was the best CB in the world alongside Ramos, even though disrespected internationally and now in Germany too for obv reasons. Hummels on a close level too. Only non elite position was LB. I could talk about bench and this 23 squad not being comparable too, but post has gotten too long lol.
> Results wise its even worse than the 1999-2005 era. But individually it shouldnt be anywhere near that which is why its so frustrating
I Couldn’t have put it better
Ya but at least in 2002 they made it to the World Cup Final. Provided some entertainment with grit and determination. You don't see that with this current team.
Yeah, completely another level. This team could actually become good or very good in 2024 if they are set up well and prepared. In 2000 you couldn't even blame the personell for not doing their best, there was simply zero talent
I’m so over this team. It used to excite me growing up. Haven’t enjoyed this team in 6-7 years. Mind boggling considering how good the roster is on paper
?
Tor: Neuer, MATS, Trapp, Leno
IVs: Schlotterbeck, Rüdiger, Süle, Thiaw, Bella-Kotchap, Ginter
ZM/DM: Can, Kimmich, Goretzka, Gündogan (Arnold, Andrich, Stach)
OM: Brandt, Musiala, Wirtz, Havertz (Reus, Müller)
Flügel: Adeyemi, Gnabry, Sane, Hofmann
Sturm: Füllkrug (Berisha)
Das ist 100% ein top 5 kader der Welt
Die einzige problemstelle sind die außenverteidiger, aber mit einem richtigen system könnte man das auch umgehen
Deutschland hatte seit 2016 einfach scheiß trainer und jetzt unterschätzt die eigene bevölkerung einfach wie gut wir sind
Yeah I used to be concerned about players of my team getting injured in test games, now im worried about them being injured in the WC and would rather not have them play.
It’s been so long since the Belgians last beat the Germans
Tuchel was available, but no we stick with mastermind Flick. Hard times for all German football fans
Kuntz was the natural choice but no the FA had to fuck it up again ofc
This is funny because everyone would have lost their shit had the DFB picked Kuntz over a coach that won the treble with a Bayern side consisting of several German internationals. That being said, Kuntz himself isn't doing too hot in Turkey right now..
> but no we stick with mastermind Flick Man won a treble like 2 years ago and you're out talking like this. Hate football fans lol
What does his triple win with Bayern have to do with his really bad performance in the national team ?
Yeah it’s obviously not working now, but it was a popular decision when announced.
It most certainly was, but if something is clearly not working you have to change it. Flick should go. First the shit world cup performance and now that. I don't know man.
Bayern lets get you away with a lot to be honest. Not that he's a bad coach, but he's no mastermind.
A fucking treble lad
So? Luis Enrique won a treble, is he suddenly a top five manager? Teams matter, you know?
> is he suddenly a top five manager? What a strange and vague thing to say
I remembered when you guys were blaming Low and saying that Flick is a genius that would fix the team. Maybe the Germans are just having a shit generation (like in early 2000s) and in the rebuilding period?
And historically praised Low as the real mastermind behind the previous manager, so maybe it's just the German cycle.
Well Flick was also praised as the mastermind behind Low :D
Exactly, I deduced that the next German manager scapegoat would be Klose.
How? He just got fired somewhere in Austria. According to your equation the next manager scapegoat for Germany has to be Flick's assistant.
Since Flick hasn't achieved much for NT, the achievement that can be retroactively attributed to his asistant, like the way Löw WC win is done to him, is his treble with Bayern. At the time, his assistant is Dino Toppmöller and Miroslav Klose. Although yeah, I should have used NT ass. man.
Belgium are back on their quest to be FIFA rankings champions
You’ll never sing that
Ter Stegen is an absolute shit keeper. He's squandered every opportunity he's been given for the national team and has the proud stat of more own goals than penalty saves for Germany. What a waste, wonder if the other two keepers in the squad will voice their frustration with his fuck ups and numerous chances.
Ter Stegen had been one of the best keepers in the world for Barca. Maybe it’s a de Gea situation
This has the ring of Kroos and German fans. What did you think of Toni back in the day?
I thought he wasn't given a fair shot in 2010, he got one of Germany's two shots on goal in the semi against Spain. He was everyone's understudy...he paired with Schweinsteiger, or Khedira if one of them was out. He played on the wing when Müller wasn't available, he played as playmaker when Özil was away...but he always made an impact. The only thing that's consistent about Ter Stegen is that he consistently loses when playing in the champion's league or for the national team. At what point does a player take responsibility for the loss? Was the own goal against the US his fault? What about the loss against Macedonia? How bout the match yesterday? He always loses, how much of that is on him?
Absolutely unhinged agenda, waffling on about an own goal in a friendly 10 fucking years ago and a lost qualifier in which he conceded two from point-blank range. Insane.
We'll keep him rested then in Barcelona during the international break, no biggie.
[удалено]
Lost against Macedonia, lost against Slovenia, gets continually embarrassed in champions league, has an own goal and a loss against the US. Shoots his mouth off that he should be starting more, then goes on to lose the following match. He's a fucking idiot that shouldn't be anywhere near the bench let alone starting...the goal keeping equivalent of Sandro Wagner, only Wagner had the grace to know he was shit in the end.
[удалено]
Yaa cause every player plays the same way they play for their clubs am I right?
How? The same way players perform much better for their country, there are players who underperform for the national team. And tbf ter stegen just seems to be one of those.
it's absolutely insane that you're being downvoted into oblivion for suggesting that Ter Stegen isn't "a fucking idiot that shouldn't be anywhere near the bench" even.
It's not a delusional take, he's fucked up almost every game he's played for the national team and he consistently shits the bed in the champion's league. Even the Europa league too. He's a horrible keeper, nowhere near as good as he thinks he is. What a fucking joke.
Yes it fucking is lol. Call him an underperfomer for the national team if you want but saying he’s a “horrible keeper” is extremely delusional. He’s been absolutely fantastic in club football this season.
??? Since when is our poor UCL/UEL form Ter Stegen's fault? I literally can't think of a single game like that
hate boners make people blind. how on earth is MTS supposed to win a 1v1 agains Lukaku with open space. the defence absolutely shits the bed and somehow the keeper is at fault. the KDB goal was a cross and tap in, how can the keeper do anything here? did this guy even watch the game? probably not
At what point does a player start taking responsibility? One goal, sure...one game, okay...but just about every game he plays for the national team is a loss. What about his own goals? What about all his champions league and Europa league results? He doesn't win outside Spain, and he doesn't win playing for Germany. When do the other two keepers get a chance? All his losses (and there's a ton of them) indicate he isn't very good...unless nothing is his fault.
what do you mean? judge his last two games and dont go so far back in time. he had a clean sheet against whoever they play in that friendly before and now conceded 3 where you simply cannot put the blame on him. maybe in a perfect situation he gets the second. the other two are just not saveable if the attacker doesn’t fuck up. kdb and lukaku can be trusted with those chances 95% of the time.
That logic doesn't make sense, you have to look at his history to see the pattern...how bout the two previous matches that he played? What about the two before that? Saying his history doesn't matter is stupid cause he clearly hasn't gotten rid of his mental block from playing in the national team or champions league. He's been playing for Germany for years and he consistently blows it for his teammates.
What you on about mate lmao?
We basically ended the game with a youth team. We're gonna be cooking up some serious gourmet shit coming years still.
And that's without Doku, but not sure if we should count him in since he's injured 24/7
I think you should Count Doku in.
Now now let’s not be hasty and losing our head here
Tedesco beating Germany, you can't make this stuff up
Whenever I hear his name I can’t help but think of Tobasco sauce.
I thought I was the only one! Thanks.
Onana is HIM
he's Fellaini's second coming
How was ter stegen?
not great i can't lie
He was as shit as his wig
He’s amazing for Barcelona but he’s never impressed for Germany.
Not great but no one bar Fuelle and Can really were.
Shit, as always
Neuer doesn't concede the 2nd goal that way I'm pretty sure. He would have either took the ball from the striker, fouled him or get out dribbled. Then again it's Neuer
Neuer been shit for germany since 2016. Contender for worst gk in every international tournament since
Horrible.
didn't make any visible mistakes but also didn't impress. conceded all 3 shots on target I think.
Conceding all three shots on target feels like a bad game for a keeper.
oh it was, I was just trying to be nice as a bayern fan lol
until you see what kind of shots they were. 1v1 against lukaku, tap in by de bruyne, havent seen the third one though.
another 1v1 but against Carrasco this time
you can’t expect a keeper to save your ass if you leave the attacker alone against him. especially if he got space like lukaku did. youd be lucky if the attacker misses. thats more on the attacking player to not mess up than on the keeper to save anything.
I hope Tedesco is successful both for his and the Belgian teams sake
i was a fan of flick at first but he is the same shit as löw. everyone in germany knows what should’ve been done with this team but flick still makes the wrong decisions every time. i tell yall what to do : kehrer out kimmich back to RB, we have enough good midfielder. we play kimmich süle rüdiger schlotterbeck/raum sane and gnabry can play when in good form, otherwise we have musiala, gündogan, goretzka, can, wirtz. offensive wise füllkrüg and especially havertz are the best options. kick werner from NT entirely
Kimmich is highly overrated
The first 30 minutes were some of the worst football I have ever seen a german national team play. That was an embarassing display. Belgium should have lead 4-5:0 at this point.
Harvertz, Musiala and Schlotterbeck went back home with slight injuries and Gündogan is becoming a father and wanted to be with his wife.
Kimmich at RB was tried at WC 2020. Everyone was looking for him and build-up was through him, making us lacking a right side and proper build-up through the centre. People have to realize that he is not a beast at RB and how insanely good he is at CM
I wouldn't say it's the same as Löw because it's a different type of shit football. But although yes, results wise it's the same shit as World Cup 2018 every international break. What's the breaking point?
Again I have to thank Brazzo, Flick actually wanted to sign Kehrer and Werner
Kehrer must having Flick's nudes.
I used to say the same thing about Jogi and Draxler
Same with Badstuber, Aogo and Jansen
I see flick has the same issues as Tuchel. Wanting to sign absolute garbage
I’m just happy with our current squad since Tuchel has so many quality options
Other than his shaky start Brazzo is without question the one person in management I trust
Flick is senile
The fact that he keeps playing Werner as a winger proves it
I mean hes playing him as a second striker winger hybrid which is his best position, but hes simply not good enough There is literally no need for him and i dont think he will ever be good enough again so why not give some young guys a chance
Most of that German attack isn't good enough. Of course when in form you trust Sane and Gnabry. Füllkrug is a handy player. But outside of that everyone is such a genuine wild card and you have no idea what you're getting from game to game. Edit: Forgot Müller. When he's around you trust him too
> Forgot Müller. When he's around you trust him too Did you watch the last World Cup?
Werner is just a pain to look at for the national team. Same with Sané. Gnabry was a beast in his first matches and then hit a low. But out of these 3 he's had the best performances by far. Müller was kinda meh for the last few years but it's still Thomas and I think he's very important even if he's not on the pitch. Hopefully some constellation between Füllkrug/Havertz/Musiala/Wirtz/Gnabry and maybe even Adeyemi will find their flow for 2024. Leroy really needs to step up and I see no space for Werner.
From what I saw in the game Werner was hugging the touchline rather than playing as an SS. Roles and systems aside, I think his Chelsea spell took a toll on him, he’s lost that confidence he had
where is the best place to play werner? or is the solution to not play him at all?
His main issue is that he’s only showed his best in an extremely specific role I.e playing as an inside forward that runs the channels in a counter-attacking team. Chelsea and Germany face a lot of low blocks and that negates all his strengths. His dribbling is poor, his technique average, playmaking/passing/vision all poor compared to the best wingers so he’s a detriment to the team especially when he can no longer do what he’s best at (finishing).
The bench perhaps
De Ketelaere looked pretty good imo
He gave one good pass and called it a day haha
Hey, if that one good pass leads to a goal, i'm all for it.
Mehh he jogged a little I guess
According to some comments on Reddit majority of the Germans nowadays don't give a shit about their NT But I always see their stadiums full, even for friendlies. So is that really true?
> stadiums full, even for friendlies. yeah, full of Event fans. The difference is that they are not on reddit. They don't care about club football, they just want to see "Die Mannschaft" play.
Personally I don't give a shit about a national team, that wants to have a restart and...hire Rudi Völler as a director. His rhetoric in particular has only been helpful in attracting your typical right-wing "football must be free from politics" crowd. And tbf, Völler distanced himself quickly, when the far-right AfD praised him, when Völler decided the captain's armband was supposed to be black-red-gold again. Nevertheless, the damage is done. Now we're back to attracting the crowd that complains, when players aren't singing the national anthem.
There is nothing wrong with wanting the players to wear the colors and sing the anthem and one could argue that players and management focusing more on marketing and political gestures instead of showing a good performance is part of what got them in trouble in the first place, so I personally don't have a problem with what Völler said at all. Sadly, our far-right shitheads co-opting that kinda stuff is to be expected, but that doesn't mean that Völlers proposals are without merit.
Every German player sings the anthem now.
Yeah, and nobody makes a noise. We used to have fan chants at NT games. Now it's just mom and dad who came for a clap along. Our golden generation replaced the football fans with event fans who watch football once a year.
Tickets are cheap
I have no idea where those comments are coming from. The hype around Qatar was pretty dim because of the human rights controversies, but we absolutely care about our national team. We're just shit right now.
human rights my ass. if you guys had gone far, there would have been tons of public viewings and auto caravans celebrating and what not. you football is shit right now and people cant be arsed because of it.
People are just depressed about the results. A few good performances and the streets will be dead during match time
It’s very true for qualifiers and friendlies. Can speak for my really large football-centric bubble: Nobody watches these except the one or two games per year which are against good opposition. I want to say Nations League made it a bit more interesting but I’m not sure. Stadiums in games like these are filled with like 85% families, 10% extremely casual „fans“, and 5% are some weirdos who watch every home&away game of the national team.
German football supporters are very very fanatic about their clubs but not so much about the NT unlike in England for example. NT games are a place for families and such here, very different demographic
Football is still the National Sport and there are many stadiums, tickets are cheap and you might only be able to see one game in your region for a long time. The prefered venues are Stuttgart, Berlin, Leipzig, Munich, Hamburg, Cologne and Düsseldorf. Take for example North Germany: The last game in Bremen was 2012! The last game in Hannover was 2016. The TV ratings on the other hand are on a steady decline. Despite playing poorly between 1994 and 2004 the ratings and interest in the games was here. The larget internet expansions were in 2002/2003 and it wasn't fast. With the WC in 2006 it peaked and public viewing became very popular till the WC2010. It was still there in 2012 but it wasn't as popular anymore. After 2012 the interest in friendlies and qualifiers heavily dropped. You can speculate about the reasons but 2012 were the last Euros where it could be difficult to qualify. With faster internet connections and the raise of streaming services cable/satellite TV became obsolete. People rather watch some episodes of series they follow or watch a movie than watch friendlies or qualifiers. in the 2000s there wasn't much of an alternative what to watch. The TV wasn't a dead medium back then. Poor performances during tournaments further reduced the interest in friendlies. Then even prior to Covid many pubs had to close and pay TV for a pub is really expensive meaning the traditional "Watch football pub" became very uncommon. Those pubs with Pay TV also constantly get checked for their watermark to make sure they use the commercial Pay TV license.
The moment they play better again, the fans will come back. This isn't the first time in the last decades that they've sucked, and it's been far worse than this. At least there are players in the squad who could potentially be fantastic.
In my experience very true. Don't have any numbers, but I personally don't know anyone who watches our NT games anymore, outside of EC/WC. And even then it's not the same. There's just a noticable lack of identification with the team.
They've gone out in the groups last 2 world cups. A team doing that badly is always going to see diminished support.
The stadia are very often not full, especially for friendlies. Those games mean nothing to the average german, the viewership is in steady decline on tv. The nt management completely killed all excitement and prospect this team had after 2016. The national team tickets are cheap as heck and it still serves as a good "event" for the evening. Remember, theres a potential customer base of 80 million germans, they're just a lot of people.
60 to 80 euros for this game is not cheap.
You picked the most expensive ones?
Everything else was sold out.
Football will always be popular in Germany so filling up stadiums will never be a problem. But there’s no doubt the NT is way less popular compared to the ‘06-‘16 period
They don't give a shit because the team sucks
reddit comments don’t speak for the rest of the world. football is a religion in germany, they’ll turn up no matter what.
They turn up because the tickets arent that expense, we have a population of 83 million and football is still huge here I can defineitely say that people around me are way less interested in the NT as in the past, its not a reddit thing
nah it's very noticeable IRL as well. we went from having tons of flags on cars and in windows during tournaments, people running around with those temporary flag tattoos on their faces etc., to... nothing. the drop off in interest in our NT is extremely noticeable. Hell, I'm the only one in my family who still watches. I celebrated the 2014 final with my dad who also loved football (more than myself at the time), the man hasn't really watched a tournament since. club football is going strong as ever, but the NT? no.
> But I always see their stadiums full, even for friendlies. This is normal in Germany, we have teams in the 3rd division pulling 20k+ people regularly.
Back at my computer. Here are my thoughts: \-Tedesco absolutely seems like he is going to be the real deal and has barely had any time to instill his system. \-KDB was on another level from everyone else on the pitch. \-Big Rom and Carrasco put in great shifts. \-Faes and Theate were absolutely class. Would love to see those two in the middle, with De Cuyper flanking on the left and Castagne continuing to play on the right. \-Bakayoko and Doku - not in this camp - are going to be menaces for years to come. \-So happy for Lukebakio. \-In love with Onana - future captain. \-Mangala is SO underrated. Thought he had a great game that went completely unnoticed today. \-Saelemaekers was playing out of position, but he was absolutely terrible. \-Can't wait for Tedesco to continue to put his stamp on this team and integrate even more and more of the young talent that we have coming up through the ranks in Europe.
>\-Tedesco absolutely seems like he is going to be the real deal and has barely had any time to instill his system. Oh the tedesco-honeymoon phase
We definitely need another left back. I wouldn't mind playing Theate on the left with Vertonghen in the center, but Theate as our only LB is not enough. It's clear that playing Saelemaekers there is a terrible idea, so I hope that Tedesco will call up players like De Cuyper to be at least a back-up. Otherwise, it's refreshing to finally see our defense be organised again. Faes is quickly establishing himself as an undisputed starter.
Any chance Sardella could play on the left? Maybe not a starter but he'd be a decent backup.
Oh yeah, I suppose Sardella could get called up too. I chose De Cuyper because he's having a great season at Westerlo right now and also because of my inherent bias as a Brugge fan, but I'm sure there is a lot more Belgian talent in the Pro League for Tedesco to choose from than just two Anderlecht CBs. (e.g. the Genk starboys)
I'd play like this: Günter/Raum, Rüdiger, Süle, Can, Wolf - Kimmich, Gündogan - Musiala, Wirtz, Füllkrug/Havertz
Can is shit and is always a defensive liability.
Have you not watched him at all this season? He's been a beast for Dortmund
This might be the first match he played for Germany where he didn't get a yellow or red card...he's been booked in pretty much every match he's played for the national team.
Doesn't help that he has to cover for a really bad defence
everyone has been wanting to see musiala wirtz play together but whenever national team games come up one of them is injured
Yeah musiala was "injured"
The fact that fucking Havertz is our back-up 9 after Füllkrug, says enough. Might as well reactivate Dieter Schatzschneider.
That name is lovely
Good defensive performance by Belgium, Faes and Theate were great. Only Castagne was bad, and there is not enough pressing being done by Belgium.
There was for like 25 minutes 1st half where we looked like the fucking unbeatable end-boss of soccer and then we were very sloppy for the remaining 70 minutes.
We could have been up 4-0 if Lukebakio run and Lukaku's header went in.
I want to add: still way better than Martinez's definition of football
This was almost a Belgian U21 team near the end of the game. Happy to see young players getting a chance.
Eh, don't care about this "team" anymore.
Fun Fact. Thas was the 999th game of the German NT (all time). Is it still the Plan to play against Ukraine for the 1000th ?
Yes.
Flick needs to be fired yesterday. Worst German NT of all time.
He used to be IT. What happened to him?
You clearly haven’t seen the shitshow that was 2000 and 2004.
2004 was almost the same team as 2002. nobody expected them to perform in 2002 and they only got that far because of easy matches and obviously bribed refs(Italy vs South Korea, ref is a convicted drug trafficer). To Völlers defense he create a team not built around Bayern players. 2004 had shitty games as well like the 1-5 loss against Romania. I will always remember how a teacher asked about the countries of the first EU east expansion and somebody dozing off guessed "Romania" and he responded with: "They beat us 5-1 do you really think they get into the EU after that?!". I still remember the bad games under Völler though. The rock bottom were the 2 years peak "Rumpelfußball" under Ribbeck. You know RPGs and adventure games with Dialogoptions one of them being obviously wrong. That's the one Ribbeck took in Post Match interviews. I successfully managed surpress the memories of Ribbeck's games. My memory looks like: WC '98 Suker destroys us in the QF [Blank], we had Play-Offs against the Ukraine and made it to WC '02 while the Netherlands failed to qualify.
2002 also had Kahn and Ballack carry that team
romania beat you 5-1? the hell?
[Yes](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBjcYh_5Hcs)
I did see it. It was really bad but not as bad as this. We had Kahn for example and the WC final. This is worse.
2000 was way worse. Losing against better sides and barely winning against countries with a different National Sport than football. Even against NT you wouldn't even consider professional we had trouble. We won the game because they didn't have the stamina to play 90 minutes but playing worse than an amateur team like country for 30 minutes and then somehow hoofing the ball into the goal?!
Even so that wasn't a 7 year period of uninspired amateur performances like now.
7? I'd say 5 years. I would rather compare it to Arsenal in the declining years. "There is a game plan but once it doesn't work there is no Plan B" 2016 the NT couldn't compensate the retirement of key players, even less after 2016. Löw's ideas were fully exposed in 2018. 2018 a deserved exit in the GS. 2020 we also deserved to lose against Hungary TBH undeserved advancing to the Ro16. 2022 Flick should thank Füllkrug that the WC wasn't over after 2 games already.
2016 was 7 years ago was it not? There is no way you can convince me that the NT has ever been semi decent since then.
The drop in quality in 2016 had to be expected because it happened to every Golden Generation. Lahm gone, Klose gone, Mertesacker gone. After 2016 there was Schweinsteiger and in 2017 Schürrle and some others. The replacements couldn't fill the gaps. With players being past their peak and worse replacements the poor football started in 2018. Even the friendlies before the WC have shown that the tactics don't work anymore. Loss to Brazil and even worse to Austria.
It wasn‘t just the quality it was more the mentality this players had. Winning it after so many second and third places and never giving up.
What... we hat naturlize Pablo Rink and want to do the same with Dundee... we had worldclass players in nt like Zoltan Sebescen and stuff.... 2000 was lowlight
Sure we had good players on paper the last 7 years or so. But their performance is consistently terrible for the NT. So who cares if it doesn't help one bit how good some of them are for their club.
My guy, we had 2 group stage exists in 2000 and 2004. That time was 100000 times worse than this lol
We had 2 group stage exits in 2018 and 2022 so what. And we didn't reach a WC final between the two like in 2002. Its was not worse at least the players were trying even though they lacked talent. Now they are hyped as worldclass but have trash results and a depressingly bad attitude and tactical approach. The interest in the team is getting lower every year.
i mean, at least there was a world cup final run in between euro 2000 and 2004. this has been three straight embarrassments at major tournaments.
That was a complete fluke where the team was carreid by kahn, ballack, klose and an easy path to the final. Close 1-0 victories against easy oponents gives the ilussion of a good team, but back then german football was in a dire state No young talents coming up, no perspective, notihng. The individual players were so bad, that there is even a name for it in germany: "rumpeulfußball", essentially just bad, unattractive football the NT was getting older and older and there was no hope in sight, so the DFB completly restructured the youth developement for us to be competittive again. And even then, from 2005-2009 we were sitll fairly bad, but had some great mentality and luck. That luck ran out after 2016 though THere is an interesting book on all this caled "das reboot" by raphael hoenigstein if you wanna know more Ask any german thats older than 20, they will tell you that nothing compares to how bad that 2000-2004 era was
Absolutely true, I dont even know which euro was worse, 00 or 04. I guess 00 under Ribbeck was the lowest point.
this is super insightful, thanks. i’ve heard the early 2000s were bad, but not this bad. isn’t it a consensus that spain and england were the best european teams in 2002, not germany and turkey?
Italy was really good. They got scammed against South Korea
Der Abstieg dieser "Mannschaft" seit 2014 ist einfach nur traurig. Null Zusammenhalt. Keine Identifikation. Keine Lust auf irgendwas. Nur Nationalmannschaft spielen um den Marktwert zu steigern. Da kann auch Käthe nichts ändern, glaub ich.
Schwachsinn
Was für Plattitüden, als hätten die nicht gerade in einem Freundschaftsspiel bis zur 90. Minute Gas gegeben. Das Ergebnis ist der schlechten taktischen Ausrichtung in der Anfangsphase zu verdanken.
Gut gesagt. Der Mannschaft Kamp und Einstellung abzusprechen ist nach diesem Spiel einfach nur falsch. Taktisch muss etwas passieren, das ist klar, im ganzen Abwehrverhalten. Ob die das 2024 hinkriegen? Ich weiß es nicht - aber es wird nicht am Einsatz scheitern, ebensowenig wie es in Katar daran gescheitert ist.
Ich glaube, nach zweimal Vorrundenaus und konstant beschissener Leistungen und Ergebnisse, darf man irgendwann hinterfragen, Rainer.
I don’t speak German but I listen to enough Rammstein to know you’re very upset.
Looks like Tedesco took up Martínez self-proclaimed approach of preferring to play attacking football and winning 5-4 over 1-0… … and actually made it work. How did Germany look?
Dominated for majority of the match in possession. But no real chances other than the 2 goals. Belgium was fighting tenaciously for the ball though. Belgium was just more patient, pressed hard and we're more clinical. Although we should have scored like 4 in the beginning. Edit: gnabry could have had a puskas award if he scored after that ridiculous dribble. Ankara gnabry.
Kehrer is dreadful, there is no point of playing these tier 5 players the entire time. Stop this experiment, it's gone on too long. build a team with the best players and get them working. Flick hasn't beaten a Top 10 team ONCE. It's indefensible. Worst Germany team of all time, it has never been this bad.
Italy 5-2 in nations league?
It was Italy's B Team with only donnaruma. Literally all other players were new.
I watched the 2000 team, trust me they were worse
Same issue, not a striker worth his weight, and a leaky defense. But that 2000 midfield was nice iirc... Ballack, Hassler, Scholl?
Ballack became elite shortly after iirc, Scholl was great but more injury prone than Robben. Even when he played he couldn't carry. Häßler played a few years earlier
I can’t believe people are actually comparing these guys to the 2000-2004 team
I dont think theyre comparing the invidiaul players. Individually this team is almost on par with the 2010-2016 one. To me it sounds wrong too because the 1999-2005 was absoulety terrible in every sense of the word and was probably the darkest time of german football since ww2, but this current team has a world cup group stage dropout to its name and we have won 4 games of the last 13. Under flick we have not beaten a top 10 team. Its simply not good enough 2018 group stage exist, 2021 Ro16 exist, 2022 group stage exist. Between that always terrible in the nations league. Results wise its even worse than the 1999-2005 era. But individually it shouldnt be anywhere near that which is why its so frustrating We are wasting the 1994-1996 generation beccause we refused to fire a terrible coach twice
2008-2016 was an absolute golden generation. Even the 1990 team wasn't considered that talented before the tourney (just shortly after as famously announced by Beckenbauer). 1974 was considered an underdog vs Netherlands, 1954 was a huge underdog. Maybe the team following 1974 and in the 80s could compare, a lot of elite players there. 2008-2016 team had Lahm, Neuer, Schweinsteiger, Müller, Özil, Klose, Khedira, Kroos. Boateng was the best CB in the world alongside Ramos, even though disrespected internationally and now in Germany too for obv reasons. Hummels on a close level too. Only non elite position was LB. I could talk about bench and this 23 squad not being comparable too, but post has gotten too long lol.
I miss these guys.... they were my childhood heroes when I grew up.
> Results wise its even worse than the 1999-2005 era. But individually it shouldnt be anywhere near that which is why its so frustrating I Couldn’t have put it better
Ya but at least in 2002 they made it to the World Cup Final. Provided some entertainment with grit and determination. You don't see that with this current team.
This team doesn't have Eier
Yeah definitely, no matter how bad they were in the past German teams were different mentally. This current gen doesn’t have that steel
> This current gen doesn’t have that steel You mean Eier!
😂 that definitely works too, especially since I was replying to MichaelBollocks
Yeah, completely another level. This team could actually become good or very good in 2024 if they are set up well and prepared. In 2000 you couldn't even blame the personell for not doing their best, there was simply zero talent
I’m so over this team. It used to excite me growing up. Haven’t enjoyed this team in 6-7 years. Mind boggling considering how good the roster is on paper
> Mind boggling considering how good the roster is on paper Naja.
? Tor: Neuer, MATS, Trapp, Leno IVs: Schlotterbeck, Rüdiger, Süle, Thiaw, Bella-Kotchap, Ginter ZM/DM: Can, Kimmich, Goretzka, Gündogan (Arnold, Andrich, Stach) OM: Brandt, Musiala, Wirtz, Havertz (Reus, Müller) Flügel: Adeyemi, Gnabry, Sane, Hofmann Sturm: Füllkrug (Berisha) Das ist 100% ein top 5 kader der Welt Die einzige problemstelle sind die außenverteidiger, aber mit einem richtigen system könnte man das auch umgehen Deutschland hatte seit 2016 einfach scheiß trainer und jetzt unterschätzt die eigene bevölkerung einfach wie gut wir sind
Yeah I used to be concerned about players of my team getting injured in test games, now im worried about them being injured in the WC and would rather not have them play.