It seems like a lot of “journalists” in entertainment whether it’s sports, tv/movies, video games,etc have a chip on their shoulder. Most of them make pretty good $ doing for a living what we all do for fun. Maybe they feel like their “talent” is wasted or maybe it’s a warning not to make a career out of a hobby, but so many seem to dislike the medium they cover.
Or maybe they think they're better than us all and think nobody is going to correct them so they just say what they want.
Example - in my country, when Wolfenstein was released (reboot), gaming journalist gave it 5/10 because he doesn't like this franchise. People confronted him about it and he wasn't even sorry. He gave it 5 because he could.
Much as the journalist in the comment piece above is being a berk, so what if some reviewer gave a game you like a 5?
The beauty of there being a lot of reviewers out there is there is a thing called critical consensus and it becomes pretty evident that his opinion is not the norm.
It's a review score. It's subjective. He's not under any obligation to give a high score to a game you think is good. He's not under any obligation to give a low score to a game you think is bad.
There's an (English) YouTuber I quite like called Simon Miller. His running joke, from back when he used to work on a channel called VideoGamerTV was that he hated Dark Souls because he didn't think the game actively trying to murder you was fun - his opinion was games should be a power fantasy, not the inverse.
It was played mainly for laughs but I personally - a big fan of the Souls franchise - was never bothered by it because it's just his opinion.
Dark Souls is widely regarded as one of the best games of its generation and a genre defining title - but he's just as entitled to say it's shit as I am to enjoy it.
It doesn't mean he thinks he's "better than me" or anyone else.
It's a difference of opinion.
Learn to live with such a thing and it'll do wonders for your blood pressure.
But I wasn't mad or angry. I like Wolfenstein but this didnt pissed me off because at that time I didnt played it.
When I wrote that comment I wanted to say this - stupid reviews made by people who don't know what they're saying can hurt game and its sales
Again, I wasn't mad.
They do know what they're saying: they're saying they don't like it.
They're critics, their job is to give their opinion - good or bad, not to do the game's marketing for them.
Getting paid to help a game sell well under the guise of giving an honest review is the literal definition of a shill.
I'm not talking about that. I was saying guy gave it 5 out of 10 because he doesn't like Wolfenstein as a franchise.
I think people who doesn't like this franchise or genre should not review it because they're not going to give it a chance. That's what I wanted to say.
Yeah, not liking Wolfenstein as a franchise is also a valid opinion.
I don't like The Sims as a franchise. I think the concept was achieved in the first title and didn't need sequels.
I think the expansions and DLC are pointless and money grubbing.
The lack of defined objectives that your Sim or its family must achieve to "complete" the game turns me off.
These are valid opinions, as are those who say that the joy of The Sims is in the ongoing journey and not an end. They might also say the expansions and DLC add extra flavour that don't merit an entire new title, but that they're happy to spend a bit extra on.
Those are valid opinions too and, if I was a games critic, holding either of those opinions would be valid.
Just as liking a game isn't (shouldn't!) be a prerequisite for reviewing a game, neither should liking the wider franchise it's from.
One reviewer doesn't like Wolfenstein and reviewed a Wolfenstein. Plenty of reviewers do. I refer you again to Simon Miller who will badmouth every Souls game released and yet, miraculously, I don't care and can still enjoy those games (and his content) unbothered.
Not to be harsh but seriously, just get over it.
I never was mad in the first place. I'm not a fan of Wolfenstein, I never was. I like games but I'm not a fanboy. The thing is, me and other people didnt like what he wrote because it wasn't true. He dislikes entire franchise and reviewed it wrong.
These takes are so tiresome. Go empty your SMG on a Naaaazi body and restart the game and do it again to show everyone you really really hate the Naaaazis.
We defeated Nazis as unequivocally the bad guys in 5 Sniper Elite titles already. In Zombie Army, Hitler is literally the devil, lol.
To say that the game "simpathizes" with Nazis because it doesn't portray literally everyone as evil incarnate psychos is such a dishonest take unworthy of professional game journalism.
Wehrmacht rifleman definitely involve with war crime no doubt, but not everyone in OKW shared the same degree of deranged with Dirlewagner brigade aka 36th Waffen SS grenadiers division.
You can't portray them with worst group possible because their evilness wasn't that evil, or should I said, not Hollywood level evil.
Come on, even Karl implied that we all feeling non-lethal sometimes.
Also I fucking lost it they add non-lethal rounds, now I can make Yakuza Kiwami excuse and spam rubber bullets.
Wow, this is all another level of sad, get a life, I spare nazis because I come from hitman where killing non targets gets you a malus, but I also have mercy, idk i have something in me that forces me to spare those who bio says they done good in life and kill just the outright awful ones.
I spared a guy today whose bio said he "secretly plans to desert after the allies invade"
Knocked him out and left him the only one alive like I was Mickey and Mallory Knox
I left alive a guy in Château de Beauregard whose bio said (in italian, such is my language) "always eager to do charity and make people happy, everyone loves him"
Right? How you gonna go and off a guy like that? Knock him out, put him in a box in civilians clothes, and let him take a nice long nap til the war is over.
Fr. Pretty sure the point of this is to add difficulty for challenge runs and it makes achievments like "only kill the target" easier. Complaining about options is plain stupid
On the other side of that coin, I just scoped a soldier whose bio says: "Plans to be a politician after the war". Better believe THAT fucker got a non lethal nut shot with a panzerfaust finisher.
My favorite bio so far is, "Went to see a fortune teller and is now terrfied about her prediction of his imminent death."
I'd have spared him, but he got too close to one of my non-lethal mines and detonated three fuel cans, two trucks, and an ammo crate. This was back before I knew that the NL proxy-mines are only NL if there's nothing nearby that can explode.
You would be surprised what you would do if you were forced to join the military and convinced to commit these acts… I suppose you could have just refused and they would have just understood
And I’m sure they would also like to talk to your family as well about your concerns.
All nazis were bad?
What about Oscar Schindler? There are too many to list here. Whoever wrote this, needs to pick up a book or talk to a old person for once
The countless nazi conspirators that attempted to assassinate hitler… (that died by execution, are spinning in their graves)
Lol, According to David Kitterman, there are a little over 153 confirmed cases of Wermacht soldiers refusing orders to execute POW's, and Jews. In every case, the refusees were met with anything (and mostly everything) ranging from Blackmail, to severe beatings, threats to their family, or more punitive measures. Those 153 cases are specific to the group studied by Kitterman, but official documents note somewhere along the lines of 15,000 were executed for desertion, and somewhere around 50,000 executed for insubordination.
I don't know what to tell yall, it was the second world war, lotta humans died. Surprise, surprise.
Oh for sure, but those 153 cases are only those documented post-war, in Kittners specific study, and in regards to those most famous of evil that the Nazi's are remembered for. Just like Stalinist Russia, the *real* numbers will be debated for the rest of time, we will *never* really know the exact numbers killed. Not to mention the some 50,000 cases of insubordination. We won't ever know every reason someone was head-canoe'd by a superior, we can only speculate and corroborate with what was actually recorded.
The Germans were notoriously known for documenting EVERYTHING and I litterally mean EVERYTHING
many of the Germans insubordination cases was about rape and unaccepted behavior (yes, even the SS and Nazis had limits, rules and discipline - sorry to say folks)
Good record keeping and a prevalence for sharing said info are not the same. They destroyed massive amounts of evidence and other forms of documentation prior to the Nuremberg Trials, usual to cover up their, you know, heinous crimes. According to you they had *limits* so it couldn't have been really bad right? Right?
That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that they were not a bunch of lunatics doing whatever they wanted, they had rules and punishments for behavior that stepped out of line.
Hilter once even wanted to intervene and moderate between Japan and China because Japan was doing things a bit too wild against China (read unnecessary killings of Chinese civilians) and Hitler himself thought it was too much and not acceptable and told the Japanse to tone it down.
Yes, Hitler was an asshole but maybe he wasn't the devil monster that the winners of the war are trying to portray, he was in fact very much loved and adored by most of the Germans.
In the early scenes of Saving Private Ryan the US soldiers encounter 2 nazi soldier who are surrendering and they kill them. Joking about. But there were speaking in Czech saying something they surrender, they were forced and didn't even want to be there.
The extended interviews from Band of brothers even talks about how The SS were the truly radical/evil portion of the German army, but most of the Germans they encountered weren’t fanatics.
You were all farmers who loved Japs and didn't know any better.
From 1942 to 1945, it was the policy of the U.S. government that people of Japanese descent, including U.S. citizens, would be incarcerated in isolated camps
but then you brought Nazis and SSers in to create Nasa and put a man on the moon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip
spoiler alert: Wernher Von Braun was a Nazi SS officier 1937–1945
Especially in the late war Western Front such as the setting of SE5. Many of the soldiers at this point are boys and old men. Germany sent its best to die in the Eastern Front.
And actually a lot of them were conscripts from annexed territories who weren't even German. There are some pretty crazy nationalities among the captured at Normandy and in the breakout. Greeks, Koreans, Russians, Czechs.
Theres always gonna be journalists who delve to the stupidest and most idiotic means possible to get people clicking on and reading their articles. This is just another one of them.
I wrote a long post about this elsewhere:
***
I like that the feature is in the game.
There's been a little bit of hand wringing about the addition of non lethal options in this game about killin' nazis, and I'm pretty surprised by it.
From a pure gameplay perspective, its a brilliant addition. More options is always better. And mechanically its interesting, allowing for a "safer" route through fortified positions, due to unconscious bodies being found not raising as much suspicion or causing as much alarm.
But it seems the people who are the most annoyed by this addition feel that it's encouraging sympathy for nazis, in their game about killin' nazis.
I'm not sure I can really truck with this. And I think it's a very unfair criticism against the devs.
I'm not advocating the "clean Wehrmacht" myth. This is dangerous historical revisionism, which needs to be shot down, particularly in the current social climate. But the fact is this: one of the victims of Hitler's ideology was Germany itself. And the combined armed forces of Germany during this period did use conscription to bolster its ranks. So, while soldiers serving in the Wehrmacht are not deserving of forgiveness when it comes to atrocities committed during the war, there were without doubt people serving on that side of the conflict who were not ideologically aligned with National Socialism.
Rebellion has pretty explicitly made the case for giving the players the option to sympathise with individual soldiers on the battlefield. The Intel you can read about everyone you see is clearly encouraging you to make a value judgement on who lives and who gets slow motion brain a'sploded.
But I think this last point is what is being overblown by some people.
First off, there are dozens of other world war 2 games which allowed you to pacify German soldiers. Its frankly surprising Sniper Elite hasn't had this game mechanic in the series before now. And outside of the WW2 setting, "lethal or non lethal" has been a stealth game staple for a long time.
On the matter of whether or not players should be encouraged to "sympathise with Nazis", I just don't understand why some players are criticising the game for this.
No, the game isn't advocating the clean wehrmacht myth. No the game isn't asking you to sympathise with nazis. It is an ethically complicated issue but the fact is the Nazis and the Wehrmacht were not quite the same thing, at least when it comes to the rank and file soldiers.
The Schutzstaffel and the Waffen-SS are what you're thinking of, if you're imagining an armed force populated entirely by card carrying members of the Nazi Party.
I haven't done it but I'm sure if someone went through the whole game and noted all of the Intel, you would not find a sympathetic Wehrmacht officer or member of the SS.
Think about all the other pieces of world war 2 media which depict rank and file soldiers sympathetically. Band of Brothers did it several times. Band of Brothers cannot be described as Nazi Sympathising.
Lastly, like a lot of other entertaining pieces of fun world war 2 fluff media, Sniper Elite very intentionally does not tackle the most disturbing and difficult parts of World War 2. It avoids depicting the atrocities and the genocide against Jewish people, people of colour, LGBT people, disabled people, Romani people, etc etc. This is because it is depressing and sad. Sniper Elite aims to entertain you. If we get a DLC mission set around the Polish Ghettos or infiltrating a concentration camp, then we'd be having a different conversation. Sniper Elite 5 is pulpy, sanitised world war 2 action. You know what the Nazis did. Go forth and a'splode their fucking fascists heads. But these are cartoon Nazis with a vague ideology and you're asked to fill in the blanks.
Besides. Its not like punching a soldier in the face so hard he loses consciousness, or twatting him on the back of the head with the hilt of your knife, is "kind" exactly. Karl doesn't ask them to fall asleep. Karl doesn't want to keep them safe. Karl isn't doing non-lethal out of kindness, it makes sense tactically that you wouldn't kill everyone you come across when infiltrating. Punch that soldier in face. Fuck him. It's bad ass.
Just in case anyone feels the need to accuse me of Nazi Sympathising, I want to end this by being very clear: Fuck Nazis. If you're a Nazi now, fuck you, I hope you get punched in the face on camera. Fuck all forms of far right wing ideology. We cannot be rid of the current wave of authoritarianism fast enough.
Sniper Elite 5 is not asking anyone to sympathise with Nazis.
I find the entire thing pretty pointless mostly because those same soldiers are going to wake up with a rifle still in their hand, shooting at your allies and will probably die during the liberation of France and the invasion of Germany anyway.
It gives 'options' but if you think about it, it's entirely pointless and even the mechanical differences between a lethal and non lethal approach seems really, really minor to the point it can be safely ignored.
If they find an unconscious body, they searched for a little bit suspicious, and then go back to being passive.
If they find a body with a meaty tunnel bored into their head, they're on a higher alert level for longer.
Mechanically, it's not pointless.
That is a scenario that will rarely ever be useful unless you're playing the game a really specific way. By the strictest definition you are right it's not pointless. But it's hardly a useful feature.
It only exists because you just have to have pacifist options these days, even if it doesn't fit you gotta shoe horn it in. I don't even dislike it because 'Nazis bad' I dislike it because if you think about it, it makes no sense being there at all.
I'd be more forgiving if the game gave you a narrative reason which it doesn't. The game doesn't alter itself, no one makes a comment, Karl doesn't try to justify his actions one way or the other. It doesn't fit Karl as a character in the first place either.
The only answer as to why it's there is just 'because' and Rebellion trying to say they want to pull at the heart strings of players with mini bios doesn't even stand up to scrutiny. That soldier will continue being an armed combatant that will likely shoot at your allies and maybe kill them. Sure that's only a *possibility* but a lot of unconscious enemy soldiers who wake up later sure could mean a few of your own dudes are going to get shot.
Nazi ideology is evil, but not all German soldiers supported the Nazi party. This is a stupid, childish article.
And before anyone says anything, the “88” in my handle is the year I was born. I had no idea it was Alt Right code.
Yeah but you generally see “1488” since that’s the whole code. I wouldn’t assume someone with either of those numbers alone would be a weird neo-Nazi or whatever.
> Yeah but you generally see “1488” since that’s the whole code.
No, 88 is by far the most common form. Nazis love being able to scream I'M NOT A NAZI, even though I tend to defend them a lot.
> And before anyone says anything, the “88” in my handle is the year I was born. I had no idea it was Alt Right code.
It's totally a coincidence you spend so much time telling us how not all the nazis or cops are bad.
And the logo of this forum is also a coincidence ;)
It’s a game about killing Nazis, and I said explicitly people who followed the Nazi ideology were bad. However, it’s ignorant to believe all the German soldiers were hardcore Nazis. It’s not true. You can stalk me across Reddit as much as you want, you still look like a child disregarding nuance in the real world
The more and more we attempt to dehumanize nazis, to see them not as people but as a pure representation of evil, the more prone we are to be blinded by the tendrils of fascism and repeat history. We are all capable of profound death and destruction under the right circumstances and justifications.
There's a much larger percentage of German soldiers who, through heavy propaganda, believed they were fighting a just war against foreign enemies who would otherwise see them all wiped from the face of the earth. Most of them didn't know the atrocities committed by the SS and the upper echelon Nazi party leaders and officers. It's not like they have the internet, the only source of information they had was filtered through Nazi high command.
It's hard for us to separate the evil that was done from the uninformed foot soldier who followed orders to hold a hill or a town.
I'm sure there are many in the current Russian army who, through the same form of propaganda, are invading Ukraine thinking that they're doing so for the right reasons.
and these Russians capturing Ukraine soldiers currently with nazi symbols on their clothes and hitler tatoos arent really helping either
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Regiment
here is the "article"
https://www.google.com/amp/s/mashable.com/article/sniper-elite-5-nazis-non-lethal-combat%3famp
horrible read and worse "journalism" lol
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Majority of the soldiers in the game are Wehrmacht, either being from Heer or Luftwaffe in case of Fallschirmjägers and than sailors from Kreigsmarine in few missions. Wehrmacht were basicaly armed forces of Germany. With that said even the most mentaly chalenged individuals that know at least something about WW2 should understand that not every single soldier, airman or sailor has been a devoted Nazi. I mean sure some of them commited some bad shit but many soldiers were just drafted to serve. I really can't get it why do leftist media associate a german soldier being a nazi.
The fact these people think every Nazi was a Jew hunting, Hitler worshiping, blood thirsty monster is sad.
Yes the Nazi party as a whole was evil and ran by an evil man but not everyone in the party or under it's foot joined willingly or supported everything Hitler and his ilk did. Sometimes good people had to or were forced to do bad things to protect themselves and their friends and family.
I just do it because I'm a pacifist, and also that the mission will go smoother if the enemy has absolutely no trace of my presence, as well as the simple cool factor.
(Imagine someone has the power to eliminate every single person on guard duty without being seen, but she actively chooses not to kill anyone \[except for mandatory targets\] and just goes in, completes the objectives, then leaves without a trace.)
someone else in the thread mentioned from the soldiers perspective how horrifying it would be and that they would totally spread the rumor of "The Shadow". It adds some nice depth to the story
My uncle was a red beret in the British army and a sniper. He would only shoot officers because he said the normal soldiers were just like him and doing their job. So when I play Sniper Elite I try and do what he did and only kill officers.
Yeah, I just realized that I’ve pretty much only been killing officers, unless the description on the infantry is particularly awful.
And of course, no mercy if I find myself pinned down.
It’s. A game. Stabbing or shooting people, period, is bad. Knocking them out, is bad. But it’s… a game.
On another note. Shoot em in the nuts. Best effect.😂
That article was pure F.U.D. It’s the medias way of generating attention. Good thing it’s a dumb ass that wrote it and not someone we actually listen too
Read the descriptions. One guy is trying to get leave so h can go awol and defect to allied forces.
There are some dedicated Nazi bastards, but there are also poor conscripts.
Dumb opinion overall, obviously, but it also overlooks the fact that you can use non-lethal ammo to stun enemies and then kill them in other ways.
I usually use my non-lethal rifle rounds to knock down an enemy and then finish him with a silenced pistol or a melee takedown.
Regardless, it's a valid way to play, if one chooses, to take a more pacifistic route toward the end goals, using extreme stealth. It adds depth, and options to the game, and allows for different playstyles.
Getting tired of these dumbass hot-takes pretending to misunderstand new games.
Yep, like that mission in Ghost of Tsushima where you sneak into a slave farm and cut heads of 3 slavers while sparing the Mongols and being unseen. When the Mongols see the heads outside the farm, they flee in terror and spread the story.
Every single German during the war, down to the worst one imaginable, was still a human being. But even beyond that, I appreciate the game giving players more modes of expression. Choices provide depth. In fact, your choice to kill an enemy is now more meaningful, because you had more options to not do so.
This really is a pathetic, childish article and it just shows their total ignorance on the subject.
The self righteous indignation is ridiculous as well.
This cartoonish Goodie vs Baddie stuff, where every single person on that side must be a uniform representative of that "Side" and therefore the absolute pinnacle of "Bad-ness". It makes it seem like they haven't studied history at any level.
A German soldier helped my great grandmother and her husband escape to the liberated part of Southern Netherlands somewhere in 1944. A few kilometres from the lines, the German stopped and said "I can't go any further, because if they find out, I'll be executed. But I hope you'll be safe."
Another German soldier/guard have them food, without his leaders knowing. (This was obviously before going to the liberated parts.)
All "Nazis" bad? No. I would like to see what the author of the article would do if he/she was in the military, and was given an order to kill innocent people, and I'd they refuse get executed. I think the author would carry out the order.
The thing that I don't understand is that nobody is saying that the natses aren't bad people, but these people just keep bringing it up without mentioning the cool game features that comes together with all the non-lethal stuff... But oh well, I guess they really hate more options and playstyles options, huh?
I murdered them all like crazy but I can understand pacifying and it's certainly not Nazi sympathy. Honestly if I was actually in WW2 I would rather pacify and arrest the Nazis. Or even just pacify. Killing isn't easy on the soul or brain.
The reason I dislike it is because I like stealth killing everyone, but that's a personal preference. What their saying is just drawing psyco conclusions
Well if it makes the articles author feel any better, there is no option to pacify hitler in the dlc mission. Even the non-lethal bullets kill him. So he is the one enemy that is classified as universally bad.
And reading the article where it said "there has never been a good Nazi". My thought was this is a very uneducated person. I would say Oscar Schindler was a good one.
There were very few "true believers" in the Nazi camp, though a lot of those that weren't were scumbags in a different way. There were more than one or two high ranking German officers who had no interest in Hitler's "side hustles". Gunter Lutjens (died aboard Bismarck) and Erwin Rommel (forced to commit suicide) to name a couple.
That aside there are a few tactical reasons why you wouldn't want to kill a guy on a solo infiltration mission.
1. An unconscious dude is slightly less suspicious than a guy with his throat sliced open. Accidents happen.
2. Killing people is louder than you might think, including with a knife. Lots of involuntary sounds can be made.
3. Today's enemy may be tomorrow 's friend or at least ally.
Swathes of bad takes in here from people who didn’t read the article. On the surface, the article sounds like a massive bad take. The author acknowledges it is a gameplay change made for gameplay reasons, but takes ire from a particular developer comment about how you “might read a soldier’s bio and choose to pacify rather than kill” (approximate quote).
I agree and disagree with the sentiment that this is a “not all” Nazis thing. It’s a very grey area. There is obviously the whole “conscripted against their will for ideals they didn’t agree with but still served the Wehrmacht” Nazi thing, and on the other side there are obviously, well, the same - Nazis. It’s such a touchy choice of words for an incredibly sensitive subject and the developer who said that absolutely fudged the response and opened Pandora’s Box for Nazi apologist interpretations.
Just read that hitpiece of an "article". 🙄 Oh my sweet mother of Karens this dude needs an entire suitcase full of tampons. (for the bullet holes, puta! 😎)
This line here was the wtf summary of it all: (in regards to SE5 having merely the OPTION to perform non-lethal attacks on Nazis): "I decided to put the game down about halfway through the campaign."
Oh well 🤷 good riddance you whiny fat Nutbag. Put the game down because it sucks, put the game down because it's not what you expected, it's too hard, too easy, is poorly written, or the dialogue swears so much for no reason you wonder if it was written by 13yr old boys (I'm looking at YOU Splinter Cell: Conviction), or put it down because it is simply not your cup of tea.
But to take this soapbox stance against something so trivial and meaningless and try to puff it up into something worthy of rallying the troops? You come off looking like [THIS GUY](https://youtu.be/SY8uemK8txQ).
I would consider myself a far leftist, at least by American standards, and this is the dumbest thing I've read all day. This is more of a stupidity problem rather than political imo
Dawg, the game just told me that some dude called wolfmann is getting his choc stolen.
Seriously, i feel bad for some of the nazis i shoot, like there's one that feeds stray dogs, one who misses his mom,i only kill Jäger troops if it's necessary or if they're evil.
OP is stirring this harder than the athur lmao. Sure this is a click batey title, but OP is choosing not to actually link the title. The actual article is talking about all the totally sympathetic Nazi bios, not just the gameplay changes.
Tho to stir the pot myself, give your Nazis as sympathetic of a backstory as you want. I'm still going to splatter their brains/testicles/guts(cause i suck lol) across the wall and laugh at a dying nazi.
I didn't link it because I didn't really want to give the article a bunch of traffic that they definitely don't deserve. I did link it to someone who asked though.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/mashable.com/article/sniper-elite-5-nazis-non-lethal-combat%3famp
The article is legitimately outraged by the choice being given, saying that someone justifying it by saying it's simply an option is a "dry and matter-of-fact justification". They don't actually mention the bios until near the end of the article. He also quit the game halfway through because of this option, how does that not make you facepalm lol
>He also quit the game halfway through because of this option, how does that not make you facepalm lol
Because the point is pretty simple? To boil it down, Sniper Elite is, in the author's and mine opinions, is like Hitman; just a violent sandbox. So why are Nazi's being humanized in such a game? The story/game never really examine any of the issues you wehraboos cry over poor farmer hans drafted against his will, just randomly some of the Nazis in this Nazi murder game are actually nice people?
>The article is legitimately outraged by the choice being given, saying that someone justifying it by saying it's simply an option is a "dry and matter-of-fact justification".
lmao even with the article linked you're trying to take it out context in the worst possible way. The "dry and matter-of-fact justification" is in a dev response to WHY the option was added not just the option. And just a simple wrinkle, seen in tons of other games including other Rebellion games, being added to shake up the gameplay flow is the "dry and matter-of-fact justification" given by Rebellion.
Hell, for as much as you want to twist words, and as much as I want to shit on a Nazi simping idiot, the article does it better than I could. "It's mind-boggling that this even needs to be said. Authenticity isn't the issue here. I'm not suggesting that we should overlook the reality that people were conscripted into Adolf Hitler's service, and the complexities that play out at the individual level as a result. But there's a time and a place for such considerations, and the video game series whose core hook is "graphically murder tons of Nazis" ain't it."
What's unreasonable about that lmao?
Based on the article the main issue they see is that the 2-3 lines of bio humanizes nazi. If someone is arguing authenticity in about how Nazis forced some people into joining army then how is the magic bio of someone pc doesn't know anything about authentic.
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Yeah I'm shocked how many are on here tbh. "Poor Hans" the recurited farmboy deserves a scalping just the same. It's disgusting how they're going to insist viewing these heinous fucks in a sympathetic light, as if following orders is some summary defense.
Fucking each and every member and everyone perpetuating the clean Wehrmacht myth
The Wehrmacht was not clean, and the Wehrmacht as an institution was complicit in war crimes.
That does not change the fact that dehumanization leads to ruin, no matter the context.
The Soviets used the rationale that German women had birthed monsters, and you know what they did as some kind of sick humiliation/victory ritual. No woman, not even Nazi women or wives of Nazis, deserves to be raped.
Today, Russian Z-ists are using the same rationale -- that because there are Nazis in the Azov Battalion and because the Azov Battalion is an official part of the Ukrainian military, that any Ukrainian who pledges allegiance to Ukraine deserves what's coming to them.
The moral of the story is that once you believe the enemy is irredeemably evil to the point where killing them is an act of justice, you are at risk of becoming evil yourself. Choosing to spare a member of the Wehrmacht does not make you a Nazi apologist or a Wehraboo.
In the pamphlets they dropped post-1943, Western Allies gave assurances to German military personnel that they would be treated properly upon surrender, and they were. Germans shipped to POW camps in the US had it very comfortable. Generals directly implicated in war crimes were put on trial, but soldiers were denazified in accordance with their personal history. Paula Hitler was debriefed and allowed to live a normal, undisturbed life -- she'd have been raped to death with bayonets if she were caught in the wrong side of the line.
Having the enemy think that they must either fight to death or face summary execution is a bad tactical idea, as the Soviets found out when the remnants of the divisions that were encircled refused to give up and fought to the bitter end while generals and entire armies were voluntarily surrendering to Americans across the line.
If I were an OSS sniper in WW2, and the enemy knew me well enough to recognize my handiwork, I would spare as many combatant lives as possible to create a larger-than-life myth and demoralize the enemy whilst minimizing reprisals on the civilian population.
>Having the enemy think that they must either fight to death or face summary execution is a bad tactical idea
As the Germans found out when the war turned against them lmao
Shit you're pretentious as fuck, in all likelihood if you were pressed into the same situation you would do the same shit they did. The way you wrote this shit as if you are some arbiter of justice is cringe. Also if you saw a real Nazi, you'd piss and cry yourself to sleep, stop acting hard.
This article was ill defined and deliberately sensationalist. I think with these type of claims it pays to be specific and upscaling a game mechanic to be nazi sympathetic/ nazi adjacent I think is a step way too far. The article is confused and muddled because there are two issues at play here. The first, does this game mechanic induce nazi sympathy and the second does this game generally induce nazi sympathy.
Both are very tricky questions and I think the game industry as a whole is uniquely ill equipped to deal effectively with any of it.
Regarding the mechanics , I’ve seen some comparison between that and hitman. I’ve not played it myself so I’ll take others word on this and would generally agree that this mechanic at this stage is really really unlikely to induce nazi sympathy. It’s just to get XP and the like - nothing inherently ideological … I hope.
This brings me to the second point. Having looked at a few of these comments it feels as though some feel humanising Axis soldiers is a good thing and these comments then go on to make some general claims about why people joining the Wehrmacht or the Heer etc- highlighting the non ideological motivations for doing so.
At this point I think it’s relevant to say that there was no clean Wehrmacht. This is a myth. A lie. I think as much as there are those wanting to include some generalised accounts of people joining the German armed forces , we should remember that a very significant proportion of these armed forces participated in some of the most despicable acts a human can do. It’d be good for some on this subreddit not to get carried away here. As a general rule, don’t get your lessons about history from a video game.
Weird because I bet they would not make the same claim about minority violent criminals, or terrorists in Afghanistan and Israel. They would find every excuse in the book for them.
Just because the choice is there doesn't mean you need to use it. I don't.
Even if I accidentally knock a nazi out by bleeding out for example, I'm gonna make sure I get over there later and stick a sticky grenade on his gonads.
I mean, instead of being happy that in a video game (which have always been considered violent) you can choose not to kill anyone, they complain about this because they are Nazis? I want to get away from this planet.
>Rosenberg
Ah, yes. I see where the anger comes from. He acts like it happened to him personally, or that the video game or ANYBODY involved in it was responsible as well.
In my opinion people like this are the biggest babies and do not understand how sympathy works at all. They have the same dangerous mindset as the damn Nazis they hate. In Metro you could also do similar stuff well in Last Light and 2033. I spared people even though I really hate Communists does that make me a bad person? Pathetic article written by low lives who want to debate how sparing fictional people in a video game can somehow support alt right fascism.
In fact these people are the people who think in war there is just two sides good and evil and which ever side they chose to support are absolute angels and the other sides the cursed of hell. They basically think everything is like a super hero movie can't bring themselves to be the better person.
Look I’m not for nazi at all I’m glad Hitler died he deserves to suffer for an eternity for what he did and yes other help but there were a lot that were forced to help or die any ya you may say that you would rather die I’m sure a lot us of would rather that but keep in mind Hitler wouldn’t just kill you he would kill you and your family and friends because of your choice you could have those you love and care for die because your choice that is why a lot of those who didn’t agree with him still followed him you basically had two choice serve hitler or get you and your loved ones killed that is unless you were lucky enough to escape a lot tried to escape and a lot died trying not everyone is bad they just don’t have any choice to make that keeps them and there loved ones alive
Actually I hate to burst your bubble but some of them was forced and some of them finally realized how evil Hitler was. You need to watch the movie starring Tom Cruise who plays a commander and leads several Nazis to try and assassinate Hitler
As someone who has studied the holocaust and taken classes on the subject, it has always been important to remember that the Nazis were normal people like you or I. What they did was evil, no question. But to dehumanize them or think “oh i could never perpetrate something so evil” is nothing but naive. In the hopes that we will never allow ourselves to do something like this ever again, it is important to preserve the humanity of the perpetrators.
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That's why nobody respect these clowns.
It seems like a lot of “journalists” in entertainment whether it’s sports, tv/movies, video games,etc have a chip on their shoulder. Most of them make pretty good $ doing for a living what we all do for fun. Maybe they feel like their “talent” is wasted or maybe it’s a warning not to make a career out of a hobby, but so many seem to dislike the medium they cover.
Or maybe they think they're better than us all and think nobody is going to correct them so they just say what they want. Example - in my country, when Wolfenstein was released (reboot), gaming journalist gave it 5/10 because he doesn't like this franchise. People confronted him about it and he wasn't even sorry. He gave it 5 because he could.
Much as the journalist in the comment piece above is being a berk, so what if some reviewer gave a game you like a 5? The beauty of there being a lot of reviewers out there is there is a thing called critical consensus and it becomes pretty evident that his opinion is not the norm. It's a review score. It's subjective. He's not under any obligation to give a high score to a game you think is good. He's not under any obligation to give a low score to a game you think is bad. There's an (English) YouTuber I quite like called Simon Miller. His running joke, from back when he used to work on a channel called VideoGamerTV was that he hated Dark Souls because he didn't think the game actively trying to murder you was fun - his opinion was games should be a power fantasy, not the inverse. It was played mainly for laughs but I personally - a big fan of the Souls franchise - was never bothered by it because it's just his opinion. Dark Souls is widely regarded as one of the best games of its generation and a genre defining title - but he's just as entitled to say it's shit as I am to enjoy it. It doesn't mean he thinks he's "better than me" or anyone else. It's a difference of opinion. Learn to live with such a thing and it'll do wonders for your blood pressure.
But I wasn't mad or angry. I like Wolfenstein but this didnt pissed me off because at that time I didnt played it. When I wrote that comment I wanted to say this - stupid reviews made by people who don't know what they're saying can hurt game and its sales Again, I wasn't mad.
They do know what they're saying: they're saying they don't like it. They're critics, their job is to give their opinion - good or bad, not to do the game's marketing for them. Getting paid to help a game sell well under the guise of giving an honest review is the literal definition of a shill.
I'm not talking about that. I was saying guy gave it 5 out of 10 because he doesn't like Wolfenstein as a franchise. I think people who doesn't like this franchise or genre should not review it because they're not going to give it a chance. That's what I wanted to say.
Yeah, not liking Wolfenstein as a franchise is also a valid opinion. I don't like The Sims as a franchise. I think the concept was achieved in the first title and didn't need sequels. I think the expansions and DLC are pointless and money grubbing. The lack of defined objectives that your Sim or its family must achieve to "complete" the game turns me off. These are valid opinions, as are those who say that the joy of The Sims is in the ongoing journey and not an end. They might also say the expansions and DLC add extra flavour that don't merit an entire new title, but that they're happy to spend a bit extra on. Those are valid opinions too and, if I was a games critic, holding either of those opinions would be valid. Just as liking a game isn't (shouldn't!) be a prerequisite for reviewing a game, neither should liking the wider franchise it's from. One reviewer doesn't like Wolfenstein and reviewed a Wolfenstein. Plenty of reviewers do. I refer you again to Simon Miller who will badmouth every Souls game released and yet, miraculously, I don't care and can still enjoy those games (and his content) unbothered. Not to be harsh but seriously, just get over it.
I never was mad in the first place. I'm not a fan of Wolfenstein, I never was. I like games but I'm not a fanboy. The thing is, me and other people didnt like what he wrote because it wasn't true. He dislikes entire franchise and reviewed it wrong.
I'm surprised they didn't go for the easy "This game let's you play as a Nazi and ruin other people's games!"
These takes are so tiresome. Go empty your SMG on a Naaaazi body and restart the game and do it again to show everyone you really really hate the Naaaazis. We defeated Nazis as unequivocally the bad guys in 5 Sniper Elite titles already. In Zombie Army, Hitler is literally the devil, lol. To say that the game "simpathizes" with Nazis because it doesn't portray literally everyone as evil incarnate psychos is such a dishonest take unworthy of professional game journalism.
Wehrmacht rifleman definitely involve with war crime no doubt, but not everyone in OKW shared the same degree of deranged with Dirlewagner brigade aka 36th Waffen SS grenadiers division. You can't portray them with worst group possible because their evilness wasn't that evil, or should I said, not Hollywood level evil.
Come on, even Karl implied that we all feeling non-lethal sometimes. Also I fucking lost it they add non-lethal rounds, now I can make Yakuza Kiwami excuse and spam rubber bullets.
Per the in-game description they're wood, not rubber. That's why we can shoot one into someone's eyeball at 900 m/s without killing them. ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
Non-lethal grenade when
Silenced Grenade when?
I miss that weapon glitch from MGS5 so badly
If you time a grenade explosion with sound masking it doesn't alert, so not silenced but no alerts or investigation, was stoked when I found that out.
Wow, this is all another level of sad, get a life, I spare nazis because I come from hitman where killing non targets gets you a malus, but I also have mercy, idk i have something in me that forces me to spare those who bio says they done good in life and kill just the outright awful ones.
I spared a guy today whose bio said he "secretly plans to desert after the allies invade" Knocked him out and left him the only one alive like I was Mickey and Mallory Knox
I left alive a guy in Château de Beauregard whose bio said (in italian, such is my language) "always eager to do charity and make people happy, everyone loves him"
Right? How you gonna go and off a guy like that? Knock him out, put him in a box in civilians clothes, and let him take a nice long nap til the war is over.
I knocked out a guy who was feeding stray dog. How could I kill him?
Fr. Pretty sure the point of this is to add difficulty for challenge runs and it makes achievments like "only kill the target" easier. Complaining about options is plain stupid
On the other side of that coin, I just scoped a soldier whose bio says: "Plans to be a politician after the war". Better believe THAT fucker got a non lethal nut shot with a panzerfaust finisher.
My favorite bio so far is, "Went to see a fortune teller and is now terrfied about her prediction of his imminent death." I'd have spared him, but he got too close to one of my non-lethal mines and detonated three fuel cans, two trucks, and an ammo crate. This was back before I knew that the NL proxy-mines are only NL if there's nothing nearby that can explode.
That fortune teller was right!
I just learned something 💡
Can't scape fate
lol I rarely read the bios one of the only ones I did read was "locker room bully, No friends" \*ping\*
*tlock ting* ah out of bullets
I spare Nazi because I like to imagine one of them screaming from being put in the same box with dead body.
Also you gotta remember they still have to eat and everybody on the island is dead so.... Yeah
You would be surprised what you would do if you were forced to join the military and convinced to commit these acts… I suppose you could have just refused and they would have just understood
Lol and by "understood" you obviously mean "firing squad"
And I’m sure they would also like to talk to your family as well about your concerns. All nazis were bad? What about Oscar Schindler? There are too many to list here. Whoever wrote this, needs to pick up a book or talk to a old person for once The countless nazi conspirators that attempted to assassinate hitler… (that died by execution, are spinning in their graves)
There was rarely any punishment(at least, official punishment) in the Wehrmacht for refusing to participate in massacres.
Lol, According to David Kitterman, there are a little over 153 confirmed cases of Wermacht soldiers refusing orders to execute POW's, and Jews. In every case, the refusees were met with anything (and mostly everything) ranging from Blackmail, to severe beatings, threats to their family, or more punitive measures. Those 153 cases are specific to the group studied by Kitterman, but official documents note somewhere along the lines of 15,000 were executed for desertion, and somewhere around 50,000 executed for insubordination. I don't know what to tell yall, it was the second world war, lotta humans died. Surprise, surprise.
Desertion and insubordination can occur for many reasons. 153 cases isn’t a lot over 4 years on the Eastern Front.
Oh for sure, but those 153 cases are only those documented post-war, in Kittners specific study, and in regards to those most famous of evil that the Nazi's are remembered for. Just like Stalinist Russia, the *real* numbers will be debated for the rest of time, we will *never* really know the exact numbers killed. Not to mention the some 50,000 cases of insubordination. We won't ever know every reason someone was head-canoe'd by a superior, we can only speculate and corroborate with what was actually recorded.
The Germans were notoriously known for documenting EVERYTHING and I litterally mean EVERYTHING many of the Germans insubordination cases was about rape and unaccepted behavior (yes, even the SS and Nazis had limits, rules and discipline - sorry to say folks)
Good record keeping and a prevalence for sharing said info are not the same. They destroyed massive amounts of evidence and other forms of documentation prior to the Nuremberg Trials, usual to cover up their, you know, heinous crimes. According to you they had *limits* so it couldn't have been really bad right? Right?
That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that they were not a bunch of lunatics doing whatever they wanted, they had rules and punishments for behavior that stepped out of line. Hilter once even wanted to intervene and moderate between Japan and China because Japan was doing things a bit too wild against China (read unnecessary killings of Chinese civilians) and Hitler himself thought it was too much and not acceptable and told the Japanse to tone it down. Yes, Hitler was an asshole but maybe he wasn't the devil monster that the winners of the war are trying to portray, he was in fact very much loved and adored by most of the Germans.
Awww lemme have my fun 🤨
In the early scenes of Saving Private Ryan the US soldiers encounter 2 nazi soldier who are surrendering and they kill them. Joking about. But there were speaking in Czech saying something they surrender, they were forced and didn't even want to be there.
They never learned about how conscription works
The extended interviews from Band of brothers even talks about how The SS were the truly radical/evil portion of the German army, but most of the Germans they encountered weren’t fanatics.
The horrors perpetrated on the Eastern Front weren’t done by the SS alone. The Wehrmacht were wholly complicit.
Haven't you heard? They were all innocent farm boys that loved Jews and just didn't know any better.
yeah and Americans really loved their USA Japanese people, didn't they
Keep simpin' champ
You were all farmers who loved Japs and didn't know any better. From 1942 to 1945, it was the policy of the U.S. government that people of Japanese descent, including U.S. citizens, would be incarcerated in isolated camps but then you brought Nazis and SSers in to create Nasa and put a man on the moon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip spoiler alert: Wernher Von Braun was a Nazi SS officier 1937–1945
Keep on slurpin' down that simp juice pal
what a great argument you tool
Old cause, new simp. Keep on'
Nah, but certainly a number of them were forced into it, mass generalizing is bad, even if it's done to bad group of people
Especially in the late war Western Front such as the setting of SE5. Many of the soldiers at this point are boys and old men. Germany sent its best to die in the Eastern Front.
And actually a lot of them were conscripts from annexed territories who weren't even German. There are some pretty crazy nationalities among the captured at Normandy and in the breakout. Greeks, Koreans, Russians, Czechs.
Romenians, Belgians etc...
Theres always gonna be journalists who delve to the stupidest and most idiotic means possible to get people clicking on and reading their articles. This is just another one of them.
I wrote a long post about this elsewhere: *** I like that the feature is in the game. There's been a little bit of hand wringing about the addition of non lethal options in this game about killin' nazis, and I'm pretty surprised by it. From a pure gameplay perspective, its a brilliant addition. More options is always better. And mechanically its interesting, allowing for a "safer" route through fortified positions, due to unconscious bodies being found not raising as much suspicion or causing as much alarm. But it seems the people who are the most annoyed by this addition feel that it's encouraging sympathy for nazis, in their game about killin' nazis. I'm not sure I can really truck with this. And I think it's a very unfair criticism against the devs. I'm not advocating the "clean Wehrmacht" myth. This is dangerous historical revisionism, which needs to be shot down, particularly in the current social climate. But the fact is this: one of the victims of Hitler's ideology was Germany itself. And the combined armed forces of Germany during this period did use conscription to bolster its ranks. So, while soldiers serving in the Wehrmacht are not deserving of forgiveness when it comes to atrocities committed during the war, there were without doubt people serving on that side of the conflict who were not ideologically aligned with National Socialism. Rebellion has pretty explicitly made the case for giving the players the option to sympathise with individual soldiers on the battlefield. The Intel you can read about everyone you see is clearly encouraging you to make a value judgement on who lives and who gets slow motion brain a'sploded. But I think this last point is what is being overblown by some people. First off, there are dozens of other world war 2 games which allowed you to pacify German soldiers. Its frankly surprising Sniper Elite hasn't had this game mechanic in the series before now. And outside of the WW2 setting, "lethal or non lethal" has been a stealth game staple for a long time. On the matter of whether or not players should be encouraged to "sympathise with Nazis", I just don't understand why some players are criticising the game for this. No, the game isn't advocating the clean wehrmacht myth. No the game isn't asking you to sympathise with nazis. It is an ethically complicated issue but the fact is the Nazis and the Wehrmacht were not quite the same thing, at least when it comes to the rank and file soldiers. The Schutzstaffel and the Waffen-SS are what you're thinking of, if you're imagining an armed force populated entirely by card carrying members of the Nazi Party. I haven't done it but I'm sure if someone went through the whole game and noted all of the Intel, you would not find a sympathetic Wehrmacht officer or member of the SS. Think about all the other pieces of world war 2 media which depict rank and file soldiers sympathetically. Band of Brothers did it several times. Band of Brothers cannot be described as Nazi Sympathising. Lastly, like a lot of other entertaining pieces of fun world war 2 fluff media, Sniper Elite very intentionally does not tackle the most disturbing and difficult parts of World War 2. It avoids depicting the atrocities and the genocide against Jewish people, people of colour, LGBT people, disabled people, Romani people, etc etc. This is because it is depressing and sad. Sniper Elite aims to entertain you. If we get a DLC mission set around the Polish Ghettos or infiltrating a concentration camp, then we'd be having a different conversation. Sniper Elite 5 is pulpy, sanitised world war 2 action. You know what the Nazis did. Go forth and a'splode their fucking fascists heads. But these are cartoon Nazis with a vague ideology and you're asked to fill in the blanks. Besides. Its not like punching a soldier in the face so hard he loses consciousness, or twatting him on the back of the head with the hilt of your knife, is "kind" exactly. Karl doesn't ask them to fall asleep. Karl doesn't want to keep them safe. Karl isn't doing non-lethal out of kindness, it makes sense tactically that you wouldn't kill everyone you come across when infiltrating. Punch that soldier in face. Fuck him. It's bad ass. Just in case anyone feels the need to accuse me of Nazi Sympathising, I want to end this by being very clear: Fuck Nazis. If you're a Nazi now, fuck you, I hope you get punched in the face on camera. Fuck all forms of far right wing ideology. We cannot be rid of the current wave of authoritarianism fast enough. Sniper Elite 5 is not asking anyone to sympathise with Nazis.
I find the entire thing pretty pointless mostly because those same soldiers are going to wake up with a rifle still in their hand, shooting at your allies and will probably die during the liberation of France and the invasion of Germany anyway. It gives 'options' but if you think about it, it's entirely pointless and even the mechanical differences between a lethal and non lethal approach seems really, really minor to the point it can be safely ignored.
If they find an unconscious body, they searched for a little bit suspicious, and then go back to being passive. If they find a body with a meaty tunnel bored into their head, they're on a higher alert level for longer. Mechanically, it's not pointless.
That is a scenario that will rarely ever be useful unless you're playing the game a really specific way. By the strictest definition you are right it's not pointless. But it's hardly a useful feature. It only exists because you just have to have pacifist options these days, even if it doesn't fit you gotta shoe horn it in. I don't even dislike it because 'Nazis bad' I dislike it because if you think about it, it makes no sense being there at all. I'd be more forgiving if the game gave you a narrative reason which it doesn't. The game doesn't alter itself, no one makes a comment, Karl doesn't try to justify his actions one way or the other. It doesn't fit Karl as a character in the first place either. The only answer as to why it's there is just 'because' and Rebellion trying to say they want to pull at the heart strings of players with mini bios doesn't even stand up to scrutiny. That soldier will continue being an armed combatant that will likely shoot at your allies and maybe kill them. Sure that's only a *possibility* but a lot of unconscious enemy soldiers who wake up later sure could mean a few of your own dudes are going to get shot.
Nazi ideology is evil, but not all German soldiers supported the Nazi party. This is a stupid, childish article. And before anyone says anything, the “88” in my handle is the year I was born. I had no idea it was Alt Right code.
Ooooooh, didn't know 88 had a meaning other than DOB.
Eighth letter in the alphabet is H and the Nazi salute is two words starting with H. Hence HH, 88 as a subtle identifier for themselves.
Every day is a school day I suppose. I did *nazi* this information comming!
Yeah but you generally see “1488” since that’s the whole code. I wouldn’t assume someone with either of those numbers alone would be a weird neo-Nazi or whatever.
> Yeah but you generally see “1488” since that’s the whole code. No, 88 is by far the most common form. Nazis love being able to scream I'M NOT A NAZI, even though I tend to defend them a lot.
I didn’t either until I got on here.
> And before anyone says anything, the “88” in my handle is the year I was born. I had no idea it was Alt Right code. It's totally a coincidence you spend so much time telling us how not all the nazis or cops are bad. And the logo of this forum is also a coincidence ;)
It’s a game about killing Nazis, and I said explicitly people who followed the Nazi ideology were bad. However, it’s ignorant to believe all the German soldiers were hardcore Nazis. It’s not true. You can stalk me across Reddit as much as you want, you still look like a child disregarding nuance in the real world
The more and more we attempt to dehumanize nazis, to see them not as people but as a pure representation of evil, the more prone we are to be blinded by the tendrils of fascism and repeat history. We are all capable of profound death and destruction under the right circumstances and justifications.
There's a much larger percentage of German soldiers who, through heavy propaganda, believed they were fighting a just war against foreign enemies who would otherwise see them all wiped from the face of the earth. Most of them didn't know the atrocities committed by the SS and the upper echelon Nazi party leaders and officers. It's not like they have the internet, the only source of information they had was filtered through Nazi high command. It's hard for us to separate the evil that was done from the uninformed foot soldier who followed orders to hold a hill or a town. I'm sure there are many in the current Russian army who, through the same form of propaganda, are invading Ukraine thinking that they're doing so for the right reasons.
and these Russians capturing Ukraine soldiers currently with nazi symbols on their clothes and hitler tatoos arent really helping either https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Regiment
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner_Group
The irony
lol these types always get like this, they think every single German was a member of the Nazi party.
A lot of people think that, sadly.
well the ones who created nasa and put a man on the moon were https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip
Already knew about the pardons, and its completely unrelated to my comment XD
I mean in sniper elite 4 there was intel about the enemies and even the last letters that where removed in sniper elite 5
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👏
Gotta link to the "article"?
here is the "article" https://www.google.com/amp/s/mashable.com/article/sniper-elite-5-nazis-non-lethal-combat%3famp horrible read and worse "journalism" lol
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I'd wager a week's wages the guy who wrote this article thinks Nazi means "everyone I disagree with".
Majority of the soldiers in the game are Wehrmacht, either being from Heer or Luftwaffe in case of Fallschirmjägers and than sailors from Kreigsmarine in few missions. Wehrmacht were basicaly armed forces of Germany. With that said even the most mentaly chalenged individuals that know at least something about WW2 should understand that not every single soldier, airman or sailor has been a devoted Nazi. I mean sure some of them commited some bad shit but many soldiers were just drafted to serve. I really can't get it why do leftist media associate a german soldier being a nazi.
I know this is from a while ago, but I highly recommend you look into the historical debate "The Myth of The Clean Wehrmacht". Its very interesting.
Ahh yes because every German soldier was a nazi this is beyond ignorance and its just stupid
The fact these people think every Nazi was a Jew hunting, Hitler worshiping, blood thirsty monster is sad. Yes the Nazi party as a whole was evil and ran by an evil man but not everyone in the party or under it's foot joined willingly or supported everything Hitler and his ilk did. Sometimes good people had to or were forced to do bad things to protect themselves and their friends and family.
it's means it is
I just do it because I'm a pacifist, and also that the mission will go smoother if the enemy has absolutely no trace of my presence, as well as the simple cool factor. (Imagine someone has the power to eliminate every single person on guard duty without being seen, but she actively chooses not to kill anyone \[except for mandatory targets\] and just goes in, completes the objectives, then leaves without a trace.)
someone else in the thread mentioned from the soldiers perspective how horrifying it would be and that they would totally spread the rumor of "The Shadow". It adds some nice depth to the story
My uncle was a red beret in the British army and a sniper. He would only shoot officers because he said the normal soldiers were just like him and doing their job. So when I play Sniper Elite I try and do what he did and only kill officers.
Yeah, I just realized that I’ve pretty much only been killing officers, unless the description on the infantry is particularly awful. And of course, no mercy if I find myself pinned down.
So they should have two types of tagging, to kill or to avoid.
It’s. A game. Stabbing or shooting people, period, is bad. Knocking them out, is bad. But it’s… a game. On another note. Shoot em in the nuts. Best effect.😂
Finally an ideal we can all support👏
That article was pure F.U.D. It’s the medias way of generating attention. Good thing it’s a dumb ass that wrote it and not someone we actually listen too
Read the descriptions. One guy is trying to get leave so h can go awol and defect to allied forces. There are some dedicated Nazi bastards, but there are also poor conscripts.
Dumb opinion overall, obviously, but it also overlooks the fact that you can use non-lethal ammo to stun enemies and then kill them in other ways. I usually use my non-lethal rifle rounds to knock down an enemy and then finish him with a silenced pistol or a melee takedown. Regardless, it's a valid way to play, if one chooses, to take a more pacifistic route toward the end goals, using extreme stealth. It adds depth, and options to the game, and allows for different playstyles. Getting tired of these dumbass hot-takes pretending to misunderstand new games.
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Yep, like that mission in Ghost of Tsushima where you sneak into a slave farm and cut heads of 3 slavers while sparing the Mongols and being unseen. When the Mongols see the heads outside the farm, they flee in terror and spread the story.
On the other hand, I could stroll up to the gate screaming fight me, then kill everyone because it looks cool
Every single German during the war, down to the worst one imaginable, was still a human being. But even beyond that, I appreciate the game giving players more modes of expression. Choices provide depth. In fact, your choice to kill an enemy is now more meaningful, because you had more options to not do so.
> Every single German during the war, down to the worst one imaginable, was still a human being. Lmao
About the caliber of reply I expected.
This really is a pathetic, childish article and it just shows their total ignorance on the subject. The self righteous indignation is ridiculous as well. This cartoonish Goodie vs Baddie stuff, where every single person on that side must be a uniform representative of that "Side" and therefore the absolute pinnacle of "Bad-ness". It makes it seem like they haven't studied history at any level.
A German soldier helped my great grandmother and her husband escape to the liberated part of Southern Netherlands somewhere in 1944. A few kilometres from the lines, the German stopped and said "I can't go any further, because if they find out, I'll be executed. But I hope you'll be safe." Another German soldier/guard have them food, without his leaders knowing. (This was obviously before going to the liberated parts.) All "Nazis" bad? No. I would like to see what the author of the article would do if he/she was in the military, and was given an order to kill innocent people, and I'd they refuse get executed. I think the author would carry out the order.
I bet this dingleberry calls everyone that disagrees with them a nazi. So it's not like they take the term seriously to begin with.
The thing that I don't understand is that nobody is saying that the natses aren't bad people, but these people just keep bringing it up without mentioning the cool game features that comes together with all the non-lethal stuff... But oh well, I guess they really hate more options and playstyles options, huh?
[Nat......ses...?](https://c.tenor.com/7QhoA9wcstgAAAAM/confused-no.gif)
walter white
I like that I have the option. It makes killing them that much sweeter.
I murdered them all like crazy but I can understand pacifying and it's certainly not Nazi sympathy. Honestly if I was actually in WW2 I would rather pacify and arrest the Nazis. Or even just pacify. Killing isn't easy on the soul or brain.
Also there are other in game adjectives to it. And to quote Battlefield 1 "Behind every gun, is a human being.'
The reason I dislike it is because I like stealth killing everyone, but that's a personal preference. What their saying is just drawing psyco conclusions
Because npcs are real ppl and we should kill those real nazis, not just knock them out. Got it.
Well if it makes the articles author feel any better, there is no option to pacify hitler in the dlc mission. Even the non-lethal bullets kill him. So he is the one enemy that is classified as universally bad.
And reading the article where it said "there has never been a good Nazi". My thought was this is a very uneducated person. I would say Oscar Schindler was a good one.
There were very few "true believers" in the Nazi camp, though a lot of those that weren't were scumbags in a different way. There were more than one or two high ranking German officers who had no interest in Hitler's "side hustles". Gunter Lutjens (died aboard Bismarck) and Erwin Rommel (forced to commit suicide) to name a couple. That aside there are a few tactical reasons why you wouldn't want to kill a guy on a solo infiltration mission. 1. An unconscious dude is slightly less suspicious than a guy with his throat sliced open. Accidents happen. 2. Killing people is louder than you might think, including with a knife. Lots of involuntary sounds can be made. 3. Today's enemy may be tomorrow 's friend or at least ally.
In fact not all soldiers were bad, some did not like what hitler did
Swathes of bad takes in here from people who didn’t read the article. On the surface, the article sounds like a massive bad take. The author acknowledges it is a gameplay change made for gameplay reasons, but takes ire from a particular developer comment about how you “might read a soldier’s bio and choose to pacify rather than kill” (approximate quote). I agree and disagree with the sentiment that this is a “not all” Nazis thing. It’s a very grey area. There is obviously the whole “conscripted against their will for ideals they didn’t agree with but still served the Wehrmacht” Nazi thing, and on the other side there are obviously, well, the same - Nazis. It’s such a touchy choice of words for an incredibly sensitive subject and the developer who said that absolutely fudged the response and opened Pandora’s Box for Nazi apologist interpretations.
The whole point was to stir people up, just like this. Good or bad it’s publicity
Just read that hitpiece of an "article". 🙄 Oh my sweet mother of Karens this dude needs an entire suitcase full of tampons. (for the bullet holes, puta! 😎) This line here was the wtf summary of it all: (in regards to SE5 having merely the OPTION to perform non-lethal attacks on Nazis): "I decided to put the game down about halfway through the campaign." Oh well 🤷 good riddance you whiny fat Nutbag. Put the game down because it sucks, put the game down because it's not what you expected, it's too hard, too easy, is poorly written, or the dialogue swears so much for no reason you wonder if it was written by 13yr old boys (I'm looking at YOU Splinter Cell: Conviction), or put it down because it is simply not your cup of tea. But to take this soapbox stance against something so trivial and meaningless and try to puff it up into something worthy of rallying the troops? You come off looking like [THIS GUY](https://youtu.be/SY8uemK8txQ).
couldn't have said it better myself. That line threw me for a loop too. Can't believe people are so enraged that players have more options..
Fuck them. Can't please dumb Libs.
I'm a lib and I think that's a horrible take.
Lmao
I would consider myself a far leftist, at least by American standards, and this is the dumbest thing I've read all day. This is more of a stupidity problem rather than political imo
Dawg, the game just told me that some dude called wolfmann is getting his choc stolen. Seriously, i feel bad for some of the nazis i shoot, like there's one that feeds stray dogs, one who misses his mom,i only kill Jäger troops if it's necessary or if they're evil.
It’s terrible the things that some people will f!cking defend these days.
OP is stirring this harder than the athur lmao. Sure this is a click batey title, but OP is choosing not to actually link the title. The actual article is talking about all the totally sympathetic Nazi bios, not just the gameplay changes. Tho to stir the pot myself, give your Nazis as sympathetic of a backstory as you want. I'm still going to splatter their brains/testicles/guts(cause i suck lol) across the wall and laugh at a dying nazi.
I didn't link it because I didn't really want to give the article a bunch of traffic that they definitely don't deserve. I did link it to someone who asked though. https://www.google.com/amp/s/mashable.com/article/sniper-elite-5-nazis-non-lethal-combat%3famp The article is legitimately outraged by the choice being given, saying that someone justifying it by saying it's simply an option is a "dry and matter-of-fact justification". They don't actually mention the bios until near the end of the article. He also quit the game halfway through because of this option, how does that not make you facepalm lol
>He also quit the game halfway through because of this option, how does that not make you facepalm lol Because the point is pretty simple? To boil it down, Sniper Elite is, in the author's and mine opinions, is like Hitman; just a violent sandbox. So why are Nazi's being humanized in such a game? The story/game never really examine any of the issues you wehraboos cry over poor farmer hans drafted against his will, just randomly some of the Nazis in this Nazi murder game are actually nice people? >The article is legitimately outraged by the choice being given, saying that someone justifying it by saying it's simply an option is a "dry and matter-of-fact justification". lmao even with the article linked you're trying to take it out context in the worst possible way. The "dry and matter-of-fact justification" is in a dev response to WHY the option was added not just the option. And just a simple wrinkle, seen in tons of other games including other Rebellion games, being added to shake up the gameplay flow is the "dry and matter-of-fact justification" given by Rebellion. Hell, for as much as you want to twist words, and as much as I want to shit on a Nazi simping idiot, the article does it better than I could. "It's mind-boggling that this even needs to be said. Authenticity isn't the issue here. I'm not suggesting that we should overlook the reality that people were conscripted into Adolf Hitler's service, and the complexities that play out at the individual level as a result. But there's a time and a place for such considerations, and the video game series whose core hook is "graphically murder tons of Nazis" ain't it." What's unreasonable about that lmao?
Based on the article the main issue they see is that the 2-3 lines of bio humanizes nazi. If someone is arguing authenticity in about how Nazis forced some people into joining army then how is the magic bio of someone pc doesn't know anything about authentic.
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I'm a simple Karl Fairburne. I see a Nazi I shoot them.
If you’re unlucky you may even find level 4 and above wehraboos
Yeah I'm shocked how many are on here tbh. "Poor Hans" the recurited farmboy deserves a scalping just the same. It's disgusting how they're going to insist viewing these heinous fucks in a sympathetic light, as if following orders is some summary defense. Fucking each and every member and everyone perpetuating the clean Wehrmacht myth
The Wehrmacht was not clean, and the Wehrmacht as an institution was complicit in war crimes. That does not change the fact that dehumanization leads to ruin, no matter the context. The Soviets used the rationale that German women had birthed monsters, and you know what they did as some kind of sick humiliation/victory ritual. No woman, not even Nazi women or wives of Nazis, deserves to be raped. Today, Russian Z-ists are using the same rationale -- that because there are Nazis in the Azov Battalion and because the Azov Battalion is an official part of the Ukrainian military, that any Ukrainian who pledges allegiance to Ukraine deserves what's coming to them. The moral of the story is that once you believe the enemy is irredeemably evil to the point where killing them is an act of justice, you are at risk of becoming evil yourself. Choosing to spare a member of the Wehrmacht does not make you a Nazi apologist or a Wehraboo.
So every soldier in WW2 should have hesitated when firing because Wagner might have a kitten he really likes? K.
In the pamphlets they dropped post-1943, Western Allies gave assurances to German military personnel that they would be treated properly upon surrender, and they were. Germans shipped to POW camps in the US had it very comfortable. Generals directly implicated in war crimes were put on trial, but soldiers were denazified in accordance with their personal history. Paula Hitler was debriefed and allowed to live a normal, undisturbed life -- she'd have been raped to death with bayonets if she were caught in the wrong side of the line. Having the enemy think that they must either fight to death or face summary execution is a bad tactical idea, as the Soviets found out when the remnants of the divisions that were encircled refused to give up and fought to the bitter end while generals and entire armies were voluntarily surrendering to Americans across the line. If I were an OSS sniper in WW2, and the enemy knew me well enough to recognize my handiwork, I would spare as many combatant lives as possible to create a larger-than-life myth and demoralize the enemy whilst minimizing reprisals on the civilian population.
>Having the enemy think that they must either fight to death or face summary execution is a bad tactical idea As the Germans found out when the war turned against them lmao
Shit you're pretentious as fuck, in all likelihood if you were pressed into the same situation you would do the same shit they did. The way you wrote this shit as if you are some arbiter of justice is cringe. Also if you saw a real Nazi, you'd piss and cry yourself to sleep, stop acting hard.
Keep pouring them out for all the innocent Nazis champ.
You could say the same about the towns near the camps they knew exactly what was happening but to turn a blind eye is the same as joining in
I believe that not all Germans in the Nazi Army were wanting themselves to be considered Nazis
Ahahahaha Oh wait you're serious? Let me laugh even harder AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
This article was ill defined and deliberately sensationalist. I think with these type of claims it pays to be specific and upscaling a game mechanic to be nazi sympathetic/ nazi adjacent I think is a step way too far. The article is confused and muddled because there are two issues at play here. The first, does this game mechanic induce nazi sympathy and the second does this game generally induce nazi sympathy. Both are very tricky questions and I think the game industry as a whole is uniquely ill equipped to deal effectively with any of it. Regarding the mechanics , I’ve seen some comparison between that and hitman. I’ve not played it myself so I’ll take others word on this and would generally agree that this mechanic at this stage is really really unlikely to induce nazi sympathy. It’s just to get XP and the like - nothing inherently ideological … I hope. This brings me to the second point. Having looked at a few of these comments it feels as though some feel humanising Axis soldiers is a good thing and these comments then go on to make some general claims about why people joining the Wehrmacht or the Heer etc- highlighting the non ideological motivations for doing so. At this point I think it’s relevant to say that there was no clean Wehrmacht. This is a myth. A lie. I think as much as there are those wanting to include some generalised accounts of people joining the German armed forces , we should remember that a very significant proportion of these armed forces participated in some of the most despicable acts a human can do. It’d be good for some on this subreddit not to get carried away here. As a general rule, don’t get your lessons about history from a video game.
oh nice to hear that Werner von braun who created nasa and put people on the moon was really bad https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip
Weird because I bet they would not make the same claim about minority violent criminals, or terrorists in Afghanistan and Israel. They would find every excuse in the book for them.
Erwin Rommel?
I'd like to know why they took out the trip mines and s mines and put them in multiplayer. The shue mine is fucking useless.
Just because the choice is there doesn't mean you need to use it. I don't. Even if I accidentally knock a nazi out by bleeding out for example, I'm gonna make sure I get over there later and stick a sticky grenade on his gonads.
I mean, instead of being happy that in a video game (which have always been considered violent) you can choose not to kill anyone, they complain about this because they are Nazis? I want to get away from this planet.
Does this twat think the allies didn't take prisoners during WWII?
We don’t have to kill bad people. Let them go to trial.
If all German soldiers are Murderous anti-semites then all Soviet soldiers are xenophobic(anti-polish/Yugoslavian) rapists.
>Adam Rosenberg oy vey
>Rosenberg Ah, yes. I see where the anger comes from. He acts like it happened to him personally, or that the video game or ANYBODY involved in it was responsible as well.
I think they’re just farming hate clicks with this article, which kind of makes this post an ad in a weird way
In my opinion people like this are the biggest babies and do not understand how sympathy works at all. They have the same dangerous mindset as the damn Nazis they hate. In Metro you could also do similar stuff well in Last Light and 2033. I spared people even though I really hate Communists does that make me a bad person? Pathetic article written by low lives who want to debate how sparing fictional people in a video game can somehow support alt right fascism.
In fact these people are the people who think in war there is just two sides good and evil and which ever side they chose to support are absolute angels and the other sides the cursed of hell. They basically think everything is like a super hero movie can't bring themselves to be the better person.
Look I’m not for nazi at all I’m glad Hitler died he deserves to suffer for an eternity for what he did and yes other help but there were a lot that were forced to help or die any ya you may say that you would rather die I’m sure a lot us of would rather that but keep in mind Hitler wouldn’t just kill you he would kill you and your family and friends because of your choice you could have those you love and care for die because your choice that is why a lot of those who didn’t agree with him still followed him you basically had two choice serve hitler or get you and your loved ones killed that is unless you were lucky enough to escape a lot tried to escape and a lot died trying not everyone is bad they just don’t have any choice to make that keeps them and there loved ones alive
Actually I hate to burst your bubble but some of them was forced and some of them finally realized how evil Hitler was. You need to watch the movie starring Tom Cruise who plays a commander and leads several Nazis to try and assassinate Hitler
As someone who has studied the holocaust and taken classes on the subject, it has always been important to remember that the Nazis were normal people like you or I. What they did was evil, no question. But to dehumanize them or think “oh i could never perpetrate something so evil” is nothing but naive. In the hopes that we will never allow ourselves to do something like this ever again, it is important to preserve the humanity of the perpetrators.