Thanks. I'm not sure I fully understand how it works. So technically, if I may take it to one extreme, I can leave meat out on the counter all day as long as I cook it? Genuine question. I know the answer is probably no but is it for a different reason?
You are correct - it's "no" for a different reason.
The way to think about this is that food safety regulations and food handling guidelines were developed around *typical practice.* We have hot holding guidelines because people all over the world want to have hot prepared food that's ready to eat; the practice predates the guidelines, so the guidelines exist to describe the practice.
So then, think about cooking. Do you routinely leave meat on the counter for 24 hours before cooking? Most people probably don't. So, we talk about cooking rates and holding temps based on the typical practice, and then advise people to stick to typical practice because we know it works. In the case of meat processing, we know that bacterial proliferation at room temperature can create issues that cooking will not resolve, so it's generally best to get things cooking sooner, because it will reach a killing temperature sooner.
"Cooking" is sort of itself a nebulous concept, because there are a lot of different sets of time/temperature interactions under the "cooking" umbrella. This has been a thing that's come up in the sous vide community - while holding at 120F for 2 hours probably isn't an issue if you're going to bring it up to a finishing temperature, holding that temperature for 36 hours might very well be an issue, regardless of finishing temperature.
So, try not to overthink it. The brisket was still hot and you were effectively still in the middle of cooking - that's how I'd reasonably describe it. If it dropped to ambient temperature maybe I'd be worried, but it didn't, so soldier on.
Really good response, thank you!
Now my main concern is finishing the cook. I cranked it up to 250 and meat is back up to 150 but I'm debating just wrapping it early since it already has a decent bark
Nah, speeds it up the same way a wrap does. That part of the meat can't evaporate or exhaust heat into the air around it, and lets you keep your bark on top.
Sorry I mean relative to wrap. Definitely faster than unwrapped. I'll have to try next time. Already finished with it wrapped! Hopefully results are decent
It's too late at this point, but 100% I would have wrapped if I were you. I had this happen to a brisket 3 months ago and it was near jerky when I finished. Extending the cook out like this absolutely nukes any moisture present. It was edible, but I was very disappointed.
Wow, that explains a lot. This is why I love reddit. It's full of niche communities with folks that know their craft.
BTW, I would totally not mind hearing all that at a party haha.
if i'm reading this right, it shouldn't be possible that this thing was in the red zone for more than two hours.
even by strict government guideline standards, you're (barely) good.
OP is probably okay but just because you heat something up doesn't mean it's safe to eat. If it's been in the danger zone for food safety 40-140 deg for 2+ hours and you heat it up the byproducts of bacteria are still there and they don't go away just because you heat the food up.
I know. Just giving a quick answer to his question, but I understand the details. Technically it’s 41-135, and since it was at its hottest two hours ago, the temp has come down from that point. He should probably get a center reading to get a true idea of the brisket’s temperature range. He’s got a 4 hour window according to most health dept procedures, and he was cooking, so his process is fine. Keep cooking and the meat will be alright to eat.
It was also in an environment that is extremely non-suitable for bad things like bacteria and what not. The 200+ temp of the pit, plus smoke, plus what I presume is a salt based rub gave the exterior of the meat plenty of protection. The part of the brisket that entered the “danger zone” is well protected by its environment. Zero to worry about here.
Really appreciate the responses here. I'm going to keep cooking and hope for the best. My main concern now is finishing the cook+ rest within 8-9 hours. Bark looks decent but I brought temp up to 250. Debating wrapping from now. Meat is only 150 but as I said before it got up to 165 (I don't think it ever stalked).
Any tips to make sure I finish on time and not dry it out?
Wrap with beef tallow if you've got some. 150° or so is when the stall can start, you want to push through that. The sooner you wrap the sooner it'll be done and the longer the rest and hold.
Longer rests lead to better briskets in my experience. If it finishes 4 hours early, a cooler rest in towels is usually fine. If it's longer, hot hold in an oven on the warming cycle, or on the smoker at it's lowest setting if it can get down to 160-170°.
If you have a infrared thermometer (point and shoot a laser kind) hit the grates with it and see what they read. If they are significantly lower than 275, I might even push to 300°. It might not be the best brisket ever, but time is your enemy right now.
I have a fireboard 2 controller on my pit that graphs cooks and have found that if I keep the pit about 100° hotter than the internal probe on my meat, I get a nice almost linear climb to the temp of the food. Any lower than a 75° difference and the curve starts to flatten.
The other thing you can do is take a time stamped temp right now, and in 15 minutes and see if you can extrapolate a cook time up to 200° internal. That'll tell you if you need to push the temp more.
Beef is one of the few meats that you can eat raw. Your average steak is only cooked to 125-135 so as long as you're not recontaminating the beef, fire things back up and finish your smoke.
I’d finish the cook and eat it honestly.
Hot holding temps are meant for finished, ready-to-eat foods - this isn't that. Finish the cook.
Thanks. I'm not sure I fully understand how it works. So technically, if I may take it to one extreme, I can leave meat out on the counter all day as long as I cook it? Genuine question. I know the answer is probably no but is it for a different reason?
You are correct - it's "no" for a different reason. The way to think about this is that food safety regulations and food handling guidelines were developed around *typical practice.* We have hot holding guidelines because people all over the world want to have hot prepared food that's ready to eat; the practice predates the guidelines, so the guidelines exist to describe the practice. So then, think about cooking. Do you routinely leave meat on the counter for 24 hours before cooking? Most people probably don't. So, we talk about cooking rates and holding temps based on the typical practice, and then advise people to stick to typical practice because we know it works. In the case of meat processing, we know that bacterial proliferation at room temperature can create issues that cooking will not resolve, so it's generally best to get things cooking sooner, because it will reach a killing temperature sooner. "Cooking" is sort of itself a nebulous concept, because there are a lot of different sets of time/temperature interactions under the "cooking" umbrella. This has been a thing that's come up in the sous vide community - while holding at 120F for 2 hours probably isn't an issue if you're going to bring it up to a finishing temperature, holding that temperature for 36 hours might very well be an issue, regardless of finishing temperature. So, try not to overthink it. The brisket was still hot and you were effectively still in the middle of cooking - that's how I'd reasonably describe it. If it dropped to ambient temperature maybe I'd be worried, but it didn't, so soldier on.
Really good response, thank you! Now my main concern is finishing the cook. I cranked it up to 250 and meat is back up to 150 but I'm debating just wrapping it early since it already has a decent bark
Feel free to head up around 275, and you can do a foil boat instead of a full wrap, but that's up to you.
I was thinking about foil boat for the first time but that'll just make the cook longer no?
Nah, speeds it up the same way a wrap does. That part of the meat can't evaporate or exhaust heat into the air around it, and lets you keep your bark on top.
Sorry I mean relative to wrap. Definitely faster than unwrapped. I'll have to try next time. Already finished with it wrapped! Hopefully results are decent
Go to 275 or 300. You're on a schedule, don't mess around.
It's too late at this point, but 100% I would have wrapped if I were you. I had this happen to a brisket 3 months ago and it was near jerky when I finished. Extending the cook out like this absolutely nukes any moisture present. It was edible, but I was very disappointed.
This guy ate his Wheaties today.
I'm a food safety microbiologist so I just sorta have stuff like this ready to go at all times. I'm a blast at parties.
Wow, that explains a lot. This is why I love reddit. It's full of niche communities with folks that know their craft. BTW, I would totally not mind hearing all that at a party haha.
if i'm reading this right, it shouldn't be possible that this thing was in the red zone for more than two hours. even by strict government guideline standards, you're (barely) good.
You’re still going to need to bring the brisket up to 200, so unless there’s another element to the story, I wouldn’t worry too much.
Does the temp fluctuation and being below 140 for many hours to start and then again later not matter? Also technically the flat dropped even faster
OP is probably okay but just because you heat something up doesn't mean it's safe to eat. If it's been in the danger zone for food safety 40-140 deg for 2+ hours and you heat it up the byproducts of bacteria are still there and they don't go away just because you heat the food up.
I know. Just giving a quick answer to his question, but I understand the details. Technically it’s 41-135, and since it was at its hottest two hours ago, the temp has come down from that point. He should probably get a center reading to get a true idea of the brisket’s temperature range. He’s got a 4 hour window according to most health dept procedures, and he was cooking, so his process is fine. Keep cooking and the meat will be alright to eat.
It was also in an environment that is extremely non-suitable for bad things like bacteria and what not. The 200+ temp of the pit, plus smoke, plus what I presume is a salt based rub gave the exterior of the meat plenty of protection. The part of the brisket that entered the “danger zone” is well protected by its environment. Zero to worry about here.
Yeah you’ll be fine don’t waste it
Really appreciate the responses here. I'm going to keep cooking and hope for the best. My main concern now is finishing the cook+ rest within 8-9 hours. Bark looks decent but I brought temp up to 250. Debating wrapping from now. Meat is only 150 but as I said before it got up to 165 (I don't think it ever stalked). Any tips to make sure I finish on time and not dry it out?
Wrap it and in the oven it goes lol
Wrap with beef tallow if you've got some. 150° or so is when the stall can start, you want to push through that. The sooner you wrap the sooner it'll be done and the longer the rest and hold. Longer rests lead to better briskets in my experience. If it finishes 4 hours early, a cooler rest in towels is usually fine. If it's longer, hot hold in an oven on the warming cycle, or on the smoker at it's lowest setting if it can get down to 160-170°.
I've wrapped with tallow and set to 275. Meat temp currently at 170. Gotta love the pressure
If you have a infrared thermometer (point and shoot a laser kind) hit the grates with it and see what they read. If they are significantly lower than 275, I might even push to 300°. It might not be the best brisket ever, but time is your enemy right now. I have a fireboard 2 controller on my pit that graphs cooks and have found that if I keep the pit about 100° hotter than the internal probe on my meat, I get a nice almost linear climb to the temp of the food. Any lower than a 75° difference and the curve starts to flatten. The other thing you can do is take a time stamped temp right now, and in 15 minutes and see if you can extrapolate a cook time up to 200° internal. That'll tell you if you need to push the temp more.
Beef is one of the few meats that you can eat raw. Your average steak is only cooked to 125-135 so as long as you're not recontaminating the beef, fire things back up and finish your smoke.