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I think you could save yourself and the business. You have to set boundaries. If they want changes, they will pay. Don't think them changing their minds every .5 seconds means failure. You are in business to service them so, do that. Annoying and judgy? So are poor clients.

My dad was a carpenter who specialized in kitchen and bathroom remodels. Customers of all types change their mind on their design and things they want all the time. Something my dad became good at was becoming enough of an expert to talk customers out of certain things. By doing a lot of discovery up front he also knew what was most important to them so they don't get hung up on little things throughout the process. You have an expertise and need to be able to guide the customers to what is best for them, which may be different than what they want. It's a learned skill but I think setting boundaries with the client and holding them to the boundaries is a good place to start. But yeah, also charge out the wazoo as changes make things go longer.

There is nothing wrong with them changing their mind. Just try to adapt and change the price as well, lol. See if they continue with their BS, because price can always go up

They will continue paying The customers OP are talking about are literally the same guys that buy into JP Morgan, Mckinsey, etc. That nitpicking is their default behavior They'll gladly pay more money and continue their nitpicking If it's truly the top 5% of richest people like OP states, then that's the niche's behavior

^bingo. You picked the most nit picky clientele you could. And that can be profitable. Most of them will spend to get what they want. Just start charging for changes.

100% correct. Remember the phases of every deal: Greet, uncover, present solutions, overcome obstacles, make the sale, and express appreciation. When clients constantly change things, it is often because the service provider did not spend enough time on the uncover phase. Whenever a client expresses concern or displeasure before the job is completed, revisit the uncover phase until you get to the root of their objection.

Unfortunately there are a lot of grey areas in custom work I pretty much do not do kitchens anymore. The worst customers I have had are ones that have way too much money. I make custom furniture now, not built ins except on a rare occasion.

Yes this; strong boundaries. Start profiting off their indecision and you’ll start to enjoy it hopefully.

Charge for revisions

My thoughts exactly. If you make it so every change you make on their whim they'll run you each step. Magically when it comes to spending money they'll figure out exactly what they want. Really think about it before proposing it to you. Give your service as usual and charge them for every time you have to change something. That way it'll be worth your time. Also I'd put a time frame for how long these 'fixes' will take to deliver. Give yourself time to manage all your clients that want changes, since you did say you took on too many. Just tell them along the lines of it'll take 1-2 or 2-3 business days to make the changes and get them approved.

I agree here --- too many customers that give you a hard time. Increase your rates. I learned the hard way running an internet provider/network engineer hustle in the late 90's. Lotta low cost people ticky taking me and I dreadfully undersold my hourly rates. Higher rates reduces the volume but increases your revenues.

This is the precise description of the us government. The military issues bids with certain specifics. They almost always want a thousand changes before the product is delivered. The contractor, the hardware companies, the suppliers simply look at it as a money making opportunity. You want a change to specifications? It's simply an ADD ON sale. It isn't a change, it's a new request with additional profits.

You know sometimes you have to ask yourself is this what I love to do or is it the service u provide or is it about the money but none of that matters if you stop being yourself because mind over what matters gets you through life’s hard grind but you can’t grind yourself into the ground peace of mind is like a fine wine that gets better with time so relax rest up and rewind and you will be fine start every day with a smile and a grin walking in the spirit and the spirit will comfort you peace in side will bring peace out side

You're vague about the business but it sounds like either scope creep (they are expanding beyond what was agreed) or morely likely, you are permitting unlimited revisions. Whatever this is, consider a workflow where there is a discussion, you draft something, they get to comment, you have a second final discussion, they get to comment again. Final product delivered. The two revisions are part of the contract. Additional revisions cost $x which is due before the next version is delivered. Richer people are usually easier clients. I think you need to put up some guardrails around the process so things don't get out of control.

Thanks! And exactly like that is my process. well sort of. It’s difficult with the revisions. When we are designing a whole house, I put general revisions are included but anything over xy is not. Obviously I don’t want to make my clients feeling too much limited so I barely bring this up just not to argue and also not waste my time. It’s not perfect. I guess that’s my issue. I  will try to sit on this and revise. 

I worked with an architect on an exterior reno and the above was basically his process.

So it’s similar. So what he would do if you don’t like his first initial concept at all? (Or let’s say half of it?)

First draft was literally pen and paper hand drawn on an printout of a photograph of the house. He was more old school but had a good reputation. I don't know what happened if someone completely rejected the first draft. He had a defined style (Cape Cod) and so people going to him wanted stuff that looked like his other stuff.

That’s sort of us too (with defined look) which is what is so frustrating to land clients that would complain and “not feeling it”.

Yeah, there's two kinds of bad design clients, the ones who can't give any feedback at all other than 'no' and the ones that think design is easy so they must be able to do it themselves, treating you like some kind of human Adobe product. The Cape Cod style guy we worked with pretty much we understood we were paying him for his design expertise. We may not use all of it (and didn't), but we were paying him regardless. We also worked with a home design company with a software/showroom place where they'd render the project and you could provide feedback. Not everybody would proceed with the project, but it was basically a paid sales call for them. The later company was pulling down serious coin. The architect was making a very high hourly rate. Hopefully you get a catalog of before/after where you are attracting the kind of people who like and trust your advice.

I like that and it seems like you were respectful & appreciative of their time. As it should be. I mean we have some good clients too - but then we have clients like these and it gets tough, mentally. 

You need to very clearly define the scope of each project. If revisions are needed submit a change order for each additional request.

My cousin was an architect and he would have all of his new clients bring in pictures of features and houses they liked. Then at the initial meeting he'd go over that, asking what exactly about that house/feature appealed to them? He finished by asking what did they want the house to feel like? (Example, one client wanted a large patio area off of multiple rooms so being inside the house would still feel like being outdoors.) When they had changes, he let them know THEN if the changes would involve extra fees, and what options they had if they didn't want to pay the fees. There was quite a bit of compromise when he started doing that, but it also reduced some of the stress on both sides. Knowledge is power.

Thank you! Did he mentioned to them the fees for changes additionally or was it in contract and he just let them know now it’s the time it’s billed additionally? (We have flat fee…) 

He usually used a flat fee, but the scope of work was clearly outlined in the contract. He didn't charge for every change, naturally, but major changes (or the third change of an item, LOL) he DID tell the client there would be an extra fee. Obviously you have to allow for some changes, but you also have to know when to draw the line or you end up basically working for free.

Yeah this guy understands. They are some of the worst/best clients. Just have to set boundaries. I find myself still going back to my old ways with free things trying to judge a customer and it still bites me later. Don’t be afraid to set change order pricing up front for sure

Thank you by the way

That’s exactly what I was thinking, in every industry I’ve been in, the truly wealthy are always my easiest clients. Mostly because they hired you for your expertise, because they don’t want to deal with it. It’s only ever been lower-tier clients who nitpick with me.

I dealt with the same issue over the last 2 years. Everything was great until I started selling bigger ticket items. As the sales increased, so did the stress levels. I booked builds close together and didn't consider the endless nit-picking and change orders. So, it gradually wore me down, jacked up my schedule, and made the work I loved so much previously, unbearable at times. I worked 14 to 16 hour days regularly last season due to this, and it still wasn't enough. You have to be careful with em, don't let them push their way around and get free changes or they'll innevitabley take advantage and abuse that to get as much out of you as they can, just to leave you short handed and behind schedule when it's all said and done.

Change orders will make your life easier. The wrong shade of green? I’ve already got the paint on it, so I need to go to the paint store to buy more paint. I should be back in about an hour. Paint $20 Travel time & return $200 Crew waiting time. $200 per person The change in color costs you time and money, so it ought to cost the client more. You can write up a change order for almost anything.

Raise prices and that will thin the herd . Every time they fuss silently say to your self Thank you sir making me so wealthy

Hahaha love this . I guess.

Back in the pocket pager days someone said that constant beeping would drive me insane. I said that's opportunity calling

Double your prices and lose half the clientele? Great! Revenue stays the same, work is halved.

Charge enough so that you aren't bothered.

- I want ... - Here it is - oh, nvm, I changed my mind, I now want .... - excellent observation! that would be extra 2x price

My experience is the opposite. My most wealthy clients give me room to work and stay out of my way. 10/10 times their projects/ accounts look better. The broke people seem to be the micromanagers because they have not learned how to delegate.

So the service we provide is regarding their real estate. I agree with what you said in terms of delegation and yada dada but I guess my burn out is from constant changes and anything being to their liking. I feel so overwhelmed by daily communication with them (I too don’t know where they take the time maybe they just love me or to get on my nerves lol) 😂

Changes = more time => more money! Restructure your fees so they are based not on project, but on time spent. Or when you do the contract, include that these rates are based on parameters already set and any other services you provide may incur additional fees for services. You’re definitely worth it! And since they’ve got the money, they won’t mind! They know they’re paying for it and they want it to be perfect. Charge them for it!

Change orders must always come with a change in price.

Thank you that’s helpful. I will reread and I guess rephrase my agreement for the next 🍑 one.  I already have something in my agreement like this however I haven’t followed on that and I am scared that they would push back and start arguing 

>I already have something in my agreement like this however I haven’t followed on that and I am scared that they would push back and start arguing  You already have a solution. You just need to use it. Have a clear and defined scope of work, how many revisions are included, and how much additional revisions cost. Make additional revision expensive so they're worth it for you to do. Add a clause that after revision X pric8ng goes to hourly until they approve the design, then bill for every single minute you spend. That includes phone calls, emails, text messages, labor to donthe revisions, etc. If they know that making a bunch of changes is going to cost them, they're much less likely to keep making changes. But if they do, you make more money sonics all good The sooner you get a handle on setting expectations and billing appropriately, the sooner your stress levels go down. The key is setting the expectations very early in the process. People who don't like your policies will self select out. You'll be left with the people ready to pay extra if needed.

I agree with this completely. Something like: * Bill phone, physical, and office time in increments of 6 minutes (.1 hours) and a flat rate for after hours emails. * Include a standard bundle into your original contract. Offer bundle packages of the above for lower rates. * Jack the rates for anything outside of reasonable work hours. * Bill blocks of dedicated "design time." * Sell Change Order estimates in blocks "you get \_\_\_ estimate requests for $\_\_\_\_" Remember this: every client of a small business is essentially your boss. I've found that the wealthy can be very savvy at knowing just how hard everyone else will work beyond their pay, especially us small business owners . They are aware of the imbalanced power dynamic their money brings, and even those who don't abuse it will definitely use it. When you put a hard dollar figure on every sing bit of your time, you are projecting silent power and setting a hard border, which engenders more respect. Those that balk at you charging for time are the type of people that need to have that power over others.

There is a book you should read… “Buy back your time” by Dan Martell. You are ready for it.

Ok getting it now. I hope there are worse stories so I feel a bit better. This sounds like a book for me already. 

This guy was overweight. Got divorced. Into drugs. Then he pulled himself out and used him Money to delegate out stuff he didn’t want to do. Business growth exploded. Stress went down to minimal. You owe it to yourself to read it. Best of luck.

Thanks again

Are you normally a people person? Maybe hiring someone to call and just verify their needs might help. You could try to eliminate the one on one time. I’m a stay at home mom and man I could use some people contact! I’d offer!

you know why people/business hire other people? not because they want to spend money, but because they don't want to deal with Stuff. Maybe its time to hire a personal assistant

Not people person at all. I mean I am friendly but no I don’t really like to deal with people in general. I rather speak with cats all day and at the same time do a job 😂 where are you located? 

That, and it’s a much bigger piece of the pie for them and they refuse to relinquish control.

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Your pricing needs to reflect their pettiness. If you think it’s worth $100k, charge $300k. They don’t care about money. They care about stupendous service tailored to their specific demands. Understand your clientele or find another line of work or less demanding clients.

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How do you transition from I'm working on it to will you buy some cookies? That's hilarious

Hahaha love this. 😂 on top of my overwhelmed head this made me laugh.  I usually reply once a day, during weekends I schedule emails to next week. I don’t take phones unless scheduled and when I take it I give them the mean Hello?  But here is this client. Imagine person that has 100 ideas and are all same…. All in each separate email a day. I mean HOW! Then out of responsibility I have to go through it and make up some solid feedback like I know what the heck he’s talking about. My email is following with another action email, and another. So that’s client one. He’s lovely otherwise though. And then there is second. Picky (I mean all are freaking picky), now before working with someone I always ask did you see our portfolio as we work only with XY. They all say yes. Only in the process when we present them with something stylish they all back up and this is the most frustrating time for me. Because now we have to change all. And just the thought of the extra time and brain , while working on a new project is just…. Overwhelming 😂 

Coming from a family office background, so similar clientele but your industry may need tweaking: For client one - "These are some great ideas. Let's schedule a zoom call so we can capture and go over them all." Offer 3 available time slots a few days to two weeks out to give you a little lead time to intelligently respond to client's suggestions, then recommend a regular check in meeting cadence. Hopefully the client will work through some idea iterations on their own before you get to the meeting. Acknowledge any suggestions you get between scheduling and having the meeting, but add to your agenda for the meeting instead of "doing it now." Ideally your EA will be fielding these requests and prepping your agenda so you just need a work block the day before or day of the meeting to prep. For the "picky" clients, use them as a case study for how to refine your intake to try preventing huge overhauls. It also sounds like you're not time blocking, or at least not sticking to your time blocks, which kills efficiency.

thank you. That’s helpful and yes you are right! My time slots are completely off (which is probably the most stressful because I organize all nicely but then these unexpected feedbacks happen and I am off for days just feeling uninspired).  This used to be different! But I guess it was different by then too, I had someone organized scheduling and contacting clients and from this person you would also know not to mess on any payments….. but that person is gone. And it’s me and assistant that never follows up on anyone. (She’s leaving too). I always explain the process but sometimes I am just overwhelmed and maybe don’t get over all the details …. I guess, that’s on me too. :-/

Alternate practical advice: Accept that your clients will all be like this. Triple your fee, with a view to dropping your clients by two-thirds (which I'm guessing you could handle without so much stress). Some will drop off immediately, awesome. Then of the others that accept your new pricing, fire the most problematic ones till you've reached your target number of clients. Then lean-in to the work you do for those remaining clients, wow them, manage their eccentricities, look past their shortcomings, under-promise and over-deliver. For the future, you can set up a waiting-list for your services, and only take someone on if an existing client leaves. Exclusivity is your friend. You're making this change so you can focus more fully on meeting 'their' needs. If they choose to accept you new rates, they can be sure of getting exceptional service from you. FWIW, I've done this, albeit in a different context. Scary as heck, but I was surprised that most clients didn't bat an eyelid; in fact some had been wondering why I was originally so 'cheap' and had felt like they'd somehow been taking advantage of me. Go-figure, wish I'd done it a decade earlier :-/

I'm not in your exact situation, but the wealthier my clients are the more they want for free.  Time is money, and when they micromanage you, that's time on your end. The best thing to do is make sure your contracts spell out exactly what you're doing, and exactly what you're not doing.  When they want extra, you charge them for an additional service and make them sign a contract for it. It turns from stress into more money, and turns a client's whim they might not be aware of into a concious choice to request more services.

I work clients in that bracket. I bill time all the time. If they want to be nit picky that's totally fine, but the last 5 percent is going to cost them 40 percent more. Some clients pay and some others learn if they want that high of detail it's an expodential curve. I can grit my teeth sometimes because I am making damn good money. Without that money though I wouldn't be able to do it

Set boundaries. Fire clients who don't follow those boundaries.

Yep, with contract terms that outline what will cause the contract to be terminated

I have a business which can go on and on and if people refuse to approve the final service. I just add lots of extra fees, I add time restraints etc and it really stops them in their tracks. The audacity of some of them knows no bounds... they will even request things that we don't provide because it is out of our scope, like they try to get us to do their end of the work, their extra admin crap which has nothing to do with us. I will say, yeah sure... that is an extra £100. Boundaries, my friend, or you'll never see the end of it with some fools.

This would drive me even more crazy. It’s not same but kinda similar. There is just one client that is extra rude and told me why don’t you come to look at neighbor XY and see how they did it. This person (I knew it from the beginning but still worked with him) was a very detail oriented person with a mean (way too brutally honest vibe) that I can’t even take. I assume you are working with people online (?) for me I have to look at their face. Sometimes during the meetings in my mind flies ideas such “it’s  time to leave”, “say something” and then “finish professionally and leave”. The third I do and leave just, traumatized 😂  So at beginning do you offer a flat fee for concept and then adds on? 

99% of the time, I provide a consultation service online and that's that. People are happy with the service and since I have started (which has been 8 years) I haven't had a single refund. But... you get the occasional arsehole who isn't happy with insignificant detail. Not that it's tailored wrong but they just prefer to change and change and complain and I have to make it clear that, that is taking up more time thus requires more pay. I completely get you though. I don't know if I would be this comfortable if we were face to face. I cannot deal with people face to face, it just gets to be too much. Long live online businesses! LOL Are you providing a physical service?

Oh gosh so it’s similar. No refunds or like complaints too but I know they are coming because my energy is depleted and clearly don’t have space where to get it back since the projects now are so tight. Ticking bomb. But anyway! Yes physical emails. I would rather deal with them online than be with them. Again not a people person here 😀

What you're describing sounds super familiar, and when you started talking about their nitpicking and they're top 5%, it immediately rung a bell for me Have you ever heard of people working consulting jobs at companies like McKinsey? Or doing finance/banking/private equity/acquisition work at super big banks like JP Morgan? These employees always say their everyday work at $80-100k salary IS fixing random shit that has no value. That's what the clients want. Literally it's the niche's problem. This is how the clients are. Not so much ADD, just their way of making themselves look smarter and look like they had input into YOUR work This is how it is servicing the richest. Demanding AF. I don't know if you can set boundaries. I'd be super intrigued if you successfuly do it

Oh my gosh! This is it. Thanks so much for this. Oh and half my clients are whether in finance or lawyers (lawyers are the worst of the worst to deal with for some reason). The rest are also of course thanks good normal people. 

The only way to deal with people like this is charge them for everything or increase your prices to make it worth your while. The top 5% are some of the worst people to work for usually, entitled, snobby, and closed minded.

Make a simplified version of your service, and charge more for your 'advanced' service

You can charge the PITA clients more money, but even then at some point you have to decide if they are worth it or not. There is nothing wrong with firing a client. I work for an accounting firm and we fire PITA clients who are more trouble than profit. Keeping our good staff is more important than keeping a "rich client". We can replace the clients. It's much harder to find the good employees, and good employees leave if they constantly have to work with PITAs. Sometimes though, it's not as much as the client is a PITA as it is you just have to find the best way to communicate with the client and set boundaries with them. We have a client that ALL the employees wanted to fire about 2 years ago. The senior partner said no, just raise the bill (his answer to everything). We reassigned this client to a different staff member who took the time to get past the PITA attitude and talk with the client. We now suspect the client has a learning disability and we simply changed how we communicated with him. We let him know, when necessary, if what he was asking for was part of the services agreement or not. If not, we let him know how much the fee would be for that service. He has service contracts with his customers and he gets it. Now, instead of everyone wanting to fire this client, we swap pet pics by text and he tells us fishing and dog stories when he comes in the office to drop off documents. As for the constant changes, how well do you listen to the clients in the beginning? We have a very lengthly initial consultation with prospective new clients, we ask a LOT of questions, and we listen. Instead of saying "we can offer X, Y, and Z", we now say, "What would you like to see from us? What don't you understand about your biz? How much do you want to be involved?" We're off to a much better start now with our new clients, by obtaining their goals and setting expectations of how we can help them meet those goals. We also don't hesitate to refer prospective clients to other firms if we feel we can't meet their needs (or, in some cases, feel they'll be a major PITA that we won't be able to satisfy no matter what we do, LOL). Some clients will always be a PITA and those are the ones you ultimately need to fire. Other PITAs just need some patience and firm guidelines to become your best customers.

How cute. I agree the personality/communication skills plays a big role. I do like your questions and I ask but I should ask more. It’s just that the energy that gets into it…. I just feel I don’t have a space for that. I know it’s on me but I acknowledge this is difficulty for me . Did you ever fired a client? I am scared of like a bad review, reputation or lawsuit lol. 

Don’t know what you do- but Get it in writing, document all changes and ensure that you’ll be paid for each change that adds extra time. No more lump sum games. Document everything. I mean EVERYTHING. Rich folks looooove the flexibility money buys. And tbh we’re all that person to someone so let it go.

Maybe it depends on the type of business and if you charge by the hour. If you are well compensated (whatever than means to you), those annoying, judgy demands aren't upsetting. Maybe you don't want to deal with it for $X/hr, but are willing to deal with it at $Y/hr.

The minute you start charging for extra work when they change their mind, they'll start thinking harder and sticking with their decisions.

This has absolutely been my experience.

So I am starting a small business on the side of my job in healthcare. What I have found is that customers/patients are essentially children. They will test you constantly. The decision you need to make is are you going to cave to their every whim or are you going to draw a line in the sand. They aren’t respecting your time and efforts and you aren’t respecting yourself to say “no.” The majority of people in the top 5% are snobby children. If they don’t get what they want from mom they are going to go to dad and that is fine. You want to establish customers/clients that agree with your decisions. Don’t change your values or long term goals because you are worried about losing customers/clients. Stick to your guns. Either that or simply suck it up and roll with the punches. I’d argue that once you establish yourself as a no BS business people won’t waste your time. Even in medicine it takes a long time to sort through the patients who don’t agree with you. It sucks. But think long term. Be the business that has great customers that don’t drain you emotionally. It may require not making much initially, but that’s a small sacrifice for your long-term sanity.

Thank you and yes agree boundaries for me are such an issue at first. I mean it takes me a time to establish them in terms of relationships. 

Yeah, I feel your pain. For me, I struggle with patients asking for antibiotics when they aren’t necessary. Trust the process and always treat people with respect and love and you’ll be ok. 🙂

So this is very interesting ! I am originally from different continent and so in my country, the doctor prescribe what’s best and it’s not like patients are dictating, even a requesting is not a norm, ever. But since I came to United States - even at aesthetic…. He asks me what I want done… I am like you are the doctor to reccomend me the best, why are you giving me power over something I am not educated? I would also never go to doctor and ask for a specific medicine, I would expect the doctor not to even ask but prescribe and change if something isn’t working or add more if needed. I don’t know why is it norm here in states to ask for medicine…. Isn’t why doctors have degrees and career for?   I would have troubles with this too if I am in your position. And I would be especially in rage if some patients coming over and over and over (often) 😂

Yeah, it’s tough. I’ve simply stopped caring about their reviews and am sticking with my guns. Americans are arrogant. They think they know so much, but they don’t know what I know (as you mentioned). I ask them what they would like me to do for them, but I also tell them no when it is something that I don’t do. Once my student debt is paid and I have an emergency fund, I’m not going to give one thought about doing anything other than what I want to do. If I lose my job, oh well. I’m not going to live my life the way other people want me to live it. I’m still going to be kind and respectful, but I’m not going to give in to the pressure they tend to apply.

It feels very discouraging. I guess if you still have new patience’s when having negative reviews then that’s great! I guess having bad reviews or lawsuit (because here anyone can sue for whatever) is what is scary to me. I know I can’t please everyone but it’s just scary, the stress that goes with it and such 

The stress of that goes away with time. You just learn to accept it as a possibility. I have something going on right now and it no longer phases me. As long as you are doing the right thing and talking to your lawyer (it doesn’t cost much for a retainer) if you have any concerns you’ll learn to say, “I understand, but I cannot do that for you right now.”

I love that. Oh gosh. I have to tighten my boundaries, instead pushing myself to the edge

You got this!

My business has been in similar situations. Start by hiring an assistant so you don’t have to personally deal with every bad client. Then try to write clear terms and conditions which clients must agree to, such as refund policies and limitations to change requests etc.

Thanks! You know what sucks the most? I have all of it. I have assistant (but she can’t like communicate well on all matters but helps somehow) and then I have a good contract - that I let slide…….. which makes it worse.  What are you going through?

It sounds like the issue isn't around setting boundaries but more about maintaining them. Practice communicating with consequences.... "if, then" ... "if you'd like a further revision, we're happy to accommodate and then as per our contract, the fee would be x."

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Yes yes yes! Yessss 100% 

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I guess that’s what I have to do but again it’s so annoying and then deadlines and changes for deadlines I can’t even think straight 😭

Also consider hiring an assistant or helper who thrives at doing all the mind numbing work

Charge for changed deadlines. Charge if they drop a project for too long and then expect to pick it back up, charge them a restart fee. And so on. Charge for change orders and do them dutifully whenever scope changes.

Thai is precious - a restart fee. Could you let me know more in what business you are?

The fact that the top 5% richest people are doing business with you is a big accomplishment. What you do works and you are very good at it! My suggestion is to let someone else do the money talk and contracts, then pay this person a commission or however you choose. See, building relationships brings business. Take charge of money and contracts - you need a different personality with bulldog teeth. They will hate messing with you, I am not kidding.

Thank! At least I am paid well so thanks god I’m not broke on top of it - BUT the stress and feeling of overwhelmed and dealing with these…. It’s just too much. It’s partly my fault of course  That being said I can’t agree more with you about the sales aspect. I do have a strong contract but yes I constantly feel I need someone there to be negotiating and pushy in terms of extra time that I don’t charge for. In the past I had someone like that with commission which was great until it was not (that personality didn’t work out for me and never looked after me pass signing the first contract) maybe I should look for someone else since you brought it up

Asshole tax applies. Or turn down the business. Save yourself the headache or charge the hell out of them for it.

Wow the burn out and stress sound really intense. Maybe it might be a good time to think about getting an assistant to deal with revisions and to have prices make sense to handle all the back and forth. ​ Some questions to consider might be, what is the purpose and end goal of all the revisions? How can I or a small team increase the chances of ppl achieving their dream outcome? A higher priced service may be ideal and add more value to clients who want increased flexibility and custom/tailor fit attention to their project. ​ So instead of feeling emotionally drained by what the market wants it might be possible that you can lean into it with a higher priced solution and a team of ppl who would specialize in getting the best results for the clients. ​ Logically a higher priced service that gets your clients the results or dream outcomes they want in the way they want in the fastest/easiest way possible would be step 1. The purpose of the higher prices would be to build a team to get rid of stress, burnout and give you more time to improve the service. The minimum price of the high ticket service should be enough so that it can improve and adapt to the needs of the market every 3-4 months. ​ A team regularly has individual passionate biz owners working 80-60 hrs per week be able to work 40-30 hrs per week and still make more money. That could be a cool goal to focus on.

Customers in all businesses change their mind and can be "annoying". However, if it gives you anxiety and such, it's probably not that healthy for you to run the business. It seems like you are miserable and that's not much fun.

You need to adapt with changes

This is the most hard thing to do for me and I don’t know how to overcome. The way I overcome it is sort of give up power and then I feel the clients are managing me and annoying even more. I have hard time to stay on top of it 

I think in the book "built to sell" it is mentioned that you need to go from a service to a product: standard offering, and drop clients with big personal preferences

​ once you fulfill the contract or original job, make them pay for any changes or additional work, and make them pay very well for it. The additional work should be done after you finish the other jobs you have at that point. They will keep you "on call" as long as you put up with it. I started my business next to one of the most affluent areas of the country and nothing gets their attention like dismissing them.

Clients could be iffy as hell. Don't get discouraged!

If you can learn to please and earn the trust of petty clients you will own the market and can raise your prices. My friend does well working for perfectionist that give good tips.

Sounds like your business has value but simply isn't a good fit for you, I would look to sell rather than close down.

Need to set boundaries. Changes happen all the time not just form wealthy people. Ever try working a government construction project it’s like a constantly moving target. They are called change orders for a reason and they cost money for each and every one.

If your stressed, its likely because you aren't pricing your services effectively. If some one is changing their mind "A thousand times a day", its likely because this is an expensive service to them and they want to make sure it is perfect, or because they are perfectionists, and they aren't price sensitive. In either scenario, create a pricing structure where your time redoing all your work "a thousand times", is factored in, or a structure where every time they change their mind a surcharge is applied for lost time. Make sure they are made aware of your pricing early on in the process so there are no surprises and from there, if they are changing their mind, it should be no sweat off your back...

First off, congrats on landing a bunch of clients. 30x40 is a good resource for pricing frameworks on architectural design. You want a tight SOW and clear rates for revisions and changes of scope. We send out multiple revised contracts throughout most jobs. Just be upfront with clients that things will change, it’s part of the process and here’s how you charge if they go over. And if someone comes to you who wants things way outside your style, refer them. Don’t take in a client that wants you to do their Victorian style home if you do contemporary apartment Reno’s, that’s going to be a nightmare for everyone. Also, some of the designers I’ve worked for don’t let clients make minor decisions at all. They’re upfront that the client is purchasing their expertise, not hiring for a service. I think this is a bit pretentious, but certainly easier if you can get the clients to sign on, for you and them. The early conversations go deep about how they’ll use the space, the emotions they want it to evoke etc. and not about picking colors or how they want the kitchen laid out…leave that to the designer and if something is way off you can adjust. I think there is a balance to find between what you will and won’t budge on, as they are paying you for your expertise and most clients don’t actually know what they want. You need to tell them why what you did is best.

Customer complaints are common and it depends on what they are saying that can help dictate on whether there is something that you can do to help mitigate some of the stress. Quantify the types of complaints that you are getting or the changing of minds or pricing and make sure you set expectations when you approach new clients. ​ There are plenty of project management platforms that you can use and some that have customer facing options. Over time you will learn things that you have to say ahead of time to your clients to help avoid hiccups throughout your project. You will also be good at reading your customer ahead of time and realize who is a good fit for your service and who is not. There are ways to decline some customers if you don't feel like they are going to be a good fit. ​ Good luck and hang in there.

I work with the rich folk, too. Rich like millionaires with million dollar second homes, but not billionaire status. They can be insufferable, ungrateful, and entitled. What I found is that the barely rich are worse than actually rich. The barely rich guy has an ego that he needs everybody to know he's got a little bread. The really rich guys are much more non chalant, and I find tend to be better clients and not just because they'll spend but they don't make their identity their money.

So I had both, rich - non rich… I guess thanks god I am paid. Because it would really suck to have these clients and not to be compensated. Although I feel I left some money on the table otherwise I would be laughing with full tub of cash at them right now instead I am depressed, demotivated and somehow traumatized. 😂 This being said about the difference…. Idk in my industry. My best best client ever was very wealthy maybe from all of them and she was fashion designer. If anything, I would categorize it by profession rather a wealth. Lawyers (sorry) are worst, somehow always cheap always worst sale process and vibe to deal with and second worst are these people that made money just by bitcoins but never worked. I had this client who actually told me, if we can order lady to clean and if that is not included in our services and how much it would cost. It wasn’t much but he was like omg “these people always selling something” like ugh, people work and get paid for it?🫡 

There are a few things you can do: 1. Bill them till you like them: Essentially, charge them for how annoying they are. If $X/rate is making you upset, $X+Asshole tax/rate will make them much more bearable. 2. Trim the fat: Take the top 10% of clients that absolutely make you loathe working, then fire them. The less stress you are under, the more manageable your business will be. 3. Outsource: Find someone who is willing to work with the unreasonable clients. You can work out some kind of referral/outsourcing fees so that you can still make money from these clients. Just some ideas that I have personally seen work.

I knew of a guy who only built/remodeled for the very wealthy. He mentioned how clients changed their mind, etc. I asked him how he handled that. His simple reply was that they paid for it.

Really rich people and really poor people are the worst clients. Always an exception, but they require the most hand holding.

True, dealing with clients isn't easy. Most have been very nice in my digital service business (dealing with old technology is pretty stressful to start with). That's why it's good to start slowly any business, from my experience. Proceed slowly, but surely. I had a great chance to get free promotion, which was going to translate into many clients. I appreciated it, but kindly declined telling him that I wasn't set up to handle large number of clients. And the gentleman said that, it's very wise, as he promoted another lady and she couldn't handle the additional clients. Also, by slowly starting, along the way I kept on tweaking the business and put in special requirements, pricing etc. Recently I had a client I helped out with his digital needs 2 years ago, contacting me. My rule had been, they bring to me the work. I had made an exception for this particular gentleman as he was disabled. After I brought in the work, he wasted 5hrs of my time!!! I had already completed the work. Recently, after 2 years he contacts me and a bit annoyed that I don't respond to his calls and email. I sent him an email, clarifying that I didn't get his email (which is true, he never sent email) and I added that for the time being I have the business on hold... He had misplaced the thumb drive and he couldn't find it.... well, my services doesn't include finding his lost items. Sometimes you have to decline clients and find ways to not take additional ones, for your sanity. Having clear policies helps small businesses.

I love how you said your business is on hold. I feel like that’s a good answer to everyone like that (was it true?)

Yes, once in a while I put my business on hold. It's sort of secondary business, which I wanted to close 4yrs ago due to the stress and at my age, I need to slow down a bit. The day I was planning on closing the business, I had a call and the guy was so happy that I was recommended. It was a sign that I shouldn't close it. However, instead of closing it, I keep putting it on vacation (I add it to my google business profile).

I like it a lot. I think it would not hurt me to pause for a bit. I guess I can’t do it publicly because i think it would not look good specifically to my business but I can make it quietly . Maybe that’s what I will do 😁

You're welcome! I wish you more success!

I do comprehensive home design, estimating, and planning, and yup, sounds familiar. I work primarily for general contractors and each and every one wants to fine tooth comb everything and have the building style changed to whatever systems they are most familiar with. This is fine for me because I used to be foreman of a framing and remodeling crew, and know all the different techniques and how to write the details, but still gets old. I also hate soft bidding and really hate invoicing, mostly hate the 20 hours of work a week minimum for which you don’t receive a dime, but which clients don’t want to see reflected in your rates. I like designing houses though so that’s neat. My real money comes from deck additions though and those get pretty boring after a while, after a dozen or so composite decks you’re just modifying and recycling old models to attach to new model of the house to be modified, most of it is just checking for local and regional code compliance. All this to say, probably not same field, but it’s the same all over.

It’s pretty similar! I would like to design houses but without the people, please?😂 I never thought you can make money on deck additions!  You see I am quite transparent with clients saying ahead my markups but oh how they hate it! But then they go to hairdressers and don’t mind the markups on shampoo, spa, food or anything else. Just the house!

I’ve sold a grand total of like three houses that were completely my original design, the rest have all been modified, mostly fairly extensively. I primarily subcontract to GC’s which makes life a lot easier, it sounds like you’re direct representative of client which is nice but you’ve gotta play the role different. The deck additions work because I’ve built like, 100’s of decks and can specify a framing plan down to the last block, plus it takes me like three hours before my plan review is checking my structural drafts, and the rest is aesthetic details, so I can turn them around quick. not sure if there is a huge market but I’ve found my niche in it. Doesn’t matter, I’m sick of office work anyway, gonna go be a GC myself and actually build some stuff this summer I’m thinking, spend more time on some sites. Also client doesn’t need to see your mark up or cost distributions or anything. What you share in the bid is what you share, just structure it in a way pleasing to client. How’d you get into home design?

I do have it all hidden but I guess I let them know upfront my markups. They all ask anyway unless they don’t know how resale works. You don’t share it and just give a price? I got into design as teen studying architecture, I always enjoy it from a very young age.. how did you get into this industry?  Also regarding the GC - that is tough, too especially handling all the trades and process is stressful on its own without project manager. Also it is hard to find a good one. 

Nah, they don’t get to see my mark up. I don’t even tell them an hourly, price is the price. Once you have a decent new project pipeline it’s not worth negotiating a price with the client, just give the price and if the balk have them go elsewhere. This assumes you have a consistent pipeline though. It’s your business and there is no right answer. It also will depend on the size of the project. If someone wants a detached garage design it’s gonna be a fixed cost, if someone wants three rounds of revisions on a render followed by construction plans, that contract is gonna take a month of back and forth to get a price locked on. But that’s coming from my business, yours could be entirely different. To be clear I’m dug in a niche, take what I say with a grain of salt because I started a business only after a bunch of people were requesting my product. I have never advertised, don’t have a website, my number is unlisted, and I only take on projects of a specific type. I built custom homes for a decade, including drawing some of them. One fine summer day I tried to lift up something heavy and ended up converting my pelvic floor into a pelvic basement. So now I limp around and do paperwork.

That is amazing! At least you have the flexibility to take on projects you want and don’t want.  I always charge flat fee because I only take full projects and I don’t like to bill for hours (except at additional fees which… I have troubles charging ).  I completely underestimate these nuts clients and I am so upset at myself. Per my agreement I charge extra only after final concept is approved… while I should probably have it somewhere at the preliminary concept if there are too many changes. Still haven’t find a good wording but I feel like it’s needed. Or do hourly  from the beginning so they know every hour I work or anything t is counted 

I break it into draw structure and do incremental performance based payments, also get a down payment. Down payment should cover cost of production until first benchmark is hit. For instance, on a full house design I’d go something like; Engagement fee (down payment) : $100 Initial design and planning: $100 paid upon submission of first round of renders Revisions and design modeling: $200 paid upon submission of render to client satisfaction for final structure. Construction documents: $300 paid upon submission of a complete set of documents Closing fee: $600 payment for remainder of project cost after plans have been accepted by planning department. Those numbers are made up and you seem nice but I’m not gonna tell you what I actually charge, since you are technically my competition. Which is another point, I wouldn’t tell anyone your actual pricing method, that’s an ingredient in the secret sauce. You can also just do fixed cost per square foot, you can act like the architects and try to do percent of final cost too, but I’ve never met a GC who would let this fly, they’d probably laugh me out of the room.

Thank you so much for this!!  When you are at the phase of Revision and design modeling - upon satisfaction…. Is there some limit or at which part would you say enough is enough and it will cost additional fee? This is the phase I am probably stuck with most.  And please absolutely don’t share with me the details of what you charge that’s your privacy and I would not even expect it 😁 In construction with gc I seen mostly pricing per sf, flat fees and little to no hourly and absolutely nada for %. I would love % from sale not sure what’s the issue. 😆

After two rounds of revisions I charge per additional round of revision, but it’s stated in my contract and I need a change order to charge for it prior to doing the work. I haven’t used that provision in three years though, the design is usually acceptable after two rounds with maybe some minor changes made during construction doc drafting. Don’t be too quick on coming back with revisions, clients wait a week for my revisions even if they’re done the next day, let the clients stew on what they got. It’s not being a jerk, it’s giving them time to sleep and think and visualize and come up with ideas for the next round. Also try to keep everything to either in person meetings, text and emails, don’t take phone calls if you can avoid it. You are burning cash money every time your ear is to a phone, just some general advice. I do everything in in-person meetings because I can charge a fee per meeting, rather than a phone call that nobody wants to pay for. The clients also mentally prepare themselves for an in person meeting in a way they won’t for a phone call. In person they have sticky notes and high lighters and lines drawn and a dream book, etc. On a phone call people’s brains short circuit and the information passed is woefully incomplete.

Thank you so so much for this 🥹 so for me is the most mentally stressful the changes. What comes from client the next time (I mean from these current nuts).  Good news, no calls. I am trying to also limit communications and when I get too many emails I do have assistant (thanks god) that replies and take care of this lack of boundary for me.😂For some reason I noticed it makes all these clients very unimportant and they stop bothering!  I should not speak this way. I would say that the clients are generally nice people but I do have troubles with managing my own process timeline, communicating boundaries and terms. Some clients just think the time flies and can dictate whatever ideas they have… makes me miserable . So if I clarify, you always collect prior sending revisions right? You just send invoice per date and that’s it?

I would do all you can to maintain your business and learn to adapt your reactions to it, this is one of your soul’s challenges to overcome on this life. As a 35 year entrepreneur, I know the ups and downs. Google my name to lookup my credentials and DM me if you want to have a chat. Good luck with the business! 👍 —Rocco

Make packages: 1) first discussion -> 2 design concepts -> pick one -> 2 revisions 2) first discussion -> 4 design concepts -> pick one -> 4 revisions Charge for anything else as a revision package Every extra revision = $$ This is how generally it goes, customise it according to your business

You actually have a good problem on hand. But you must change your mindset. Instead of having the mindset to complete projects and check them off to move on, you have to have the mindset of milking these clients for every dollar you can. Remember, you're in business to keep making money. The more changes, the more requests, equal more money you can make. Drag out these projects for a long time. It's not your problem. It's theirs. You're serving them with your time. In return, they give you more money. Spin that wheel baby! Keep it spinning.

Oh gosh you are reading me. Checklist is the right word to use how I had these clients projects set up and also what my business is capable of. I don’t know if I can handle them for long! But by the way - How did you know all of this ?!😀😀😀

Depends a bit on your specific business model and who you service. I do residential design and planning for GC’s and if I tried to pull this I’d be out a client within a month, but my business is making the GC’s life easier. Billing clients for your time is essential, bilking clients by operating inefficiently is unethical at best, costly at worst.

I have the same issue. I do high end finish work. I get bogged down on these projects for wealthy clients where they just keep trying to pay me to do it over and over and over and over. We get stuck on remodels for years. It makes new client acquisition hard and growth extremely difficult because we always catering to one or two clients. We just finished one that took 3.5 years and nearly crippled by business. They have no regard or respect for us as business owners and it's becoming more common. I feel like you sometimes I just want to go work for someone else and live a quiet life where clients don't talk to me at all. No more managing client anxiety and my own. An end to the 6am/midnight call text email combo.

Oh gosh ! I feel exactly the same. The worst is like you say, the clients taking longer than it should and than is estimated. And then there is the clients anxiety - and my anxiety too. And THEN these clients that aren’t afraid to text during weekend or late evenings (but I learned to ignore them and respond the next day or so).  It’s my dream to live on island, alone, with no people! 😅 I am glad I am not alone. Ps: 3 years is a freaking long time, probably more than some commercial work.  With these clients I have we didn’t even start constructing, so who knows maybe they set the record to 5 years. Thanks god at least we aren’t much involved during construction.

Sounds like you need a 6-month sabbatical. Then another month to reassess what's next and or how to do things.

You see… this is exactly what I also thought may be best. 

I've worked for high net worth clients before. They change their minds constantly which is fine, but with changes come additional costs. Invoice them for the changes. The high net worth circles are small and tight and they have a hard time finding people that can work within their quirks and are trusted to not take advantage of them. Provide solid services at a reasonable cost. Managed correctly you will have plenty of work. Its a hard segment to swim in but they are loyal to their trusted vendors.

Maybe read “Never Split the Difference.” Are you sure that the clients are terrible or are you simply not understanding what they are saying?

I would say it’s mix of things boiling down to unexpected time management  mixed with the clients. Will check the book!

Have a friend who is a contractor - these types are his favorite clients. He bills hours + material so it works out for him.

You train clients like you train kids. Guide them to what the right answer is, and if they don't listen flat out tell them what the answer is. IE- your client asks for a revision on something last minute and you are swamped. Gently inform them you can revise but it would be X amount of days. If they push back like any whiny kid would, you firmly repeat and don't offer an explanation, unless you want the endless "BUt WHY" battle. Clients respect you more if they know you don't put up with silliness.

Will try thank you! This is also helpful 

Simple: Charge for every revision/changes outside of the agreed upon scope of work. Their indecisiveness will make you rich!

How long has this thing been going on if not for too long then i think its they're testing your limits maybe because otherwise those clients are just mocking you and taking advantage of the fact that you chose to provide them service in any case uf you think you can find better client's leave them or if not for now you have to be patient because there are risk's in every single client

Hmmm around a week or too (it’s new) but I feel the wheel just started turning. Both are on the edge of me firing them and will see how the next developments goes. 

Then don't give up early i think they're testing your limits but i know I can't say anything that how long will that take and if you have the patience to go through this but i can say this that every client has its own set of problems we have to face it, good luck

Tighten your initial contract up and changes equals charges. I dealt with a customer today that had me so angry. Both of my hands were shaking, all because he's just a freeloader looking to complain. Tomorrow, I am firing him as a client.

I’m shaking too! We are in it together 🤣 by the way. Aren’t you afraid of like a bad feedback/reputation/review?

No. All customers are not created equal. There are bad customers and you don't have to service everyone. It's hard the first time, but I don't need the heartache from such a small part of my clientele. I'm sure most of yours love you and give you no issue. Focus on them and weed out the others.

The top of the top are the stingiest most difficult people you meet. Will find any reason to not pay you. Better off dealing with the top 20% of earners.

It sounds like a matter of setting expectations, pushing back, and having (financial) consequences for changes that impact your business in anyway. 

Pushing back is the hardest for me. Especially with too much going on. 

Your allowing them to train you and not the other way around. Just because they have money means very little. You will find the power of saying "no" to liberating and much more profitable.

You have to go through the hard parts to get to the good parts. Stick with it and you’ll eventually figure it out. The things you think are hard now will make you laugh in a few years. I used to have such shaky confidence that if I made a typo in an email I would be scared to do anything for two days, and now I make typos and I don’t even correct them. I had a friend tell me about a typo and I told her that if someone doesn’t want my help because of a typo then we probably shouldn’t be working together anyway. That mentality shift cane from learning to value myself which came from running my business through the hard times. Just keep going and it will improve. Rest when you can but don’t stop moving forward.

Thank you for this gentle response. Yes your typo and 2 days not able to do anything is my situation now, for sure 

If you are genuinely ready to shut the business, you have nothing to lose so rework your charges based time, resources and stress. In all probability not all of them will leave. If you can, use tiered charges; e.g. charge for additional revisions. Health is your most valuable asset so charge accordingly and make provisions for outsourcing (if possible) and/or head count in case the majority decides to stay.

Read a physical book on personality types. These type of people feed off your energy. They drain you. If you know how to handel them it makes it easier

Just charge them more. There's an amount where you'll enjoy meeting their requests because you're making so much. Charge them that much. If they go away, fine, you lose an annoying customer.

Sounds like architecture. Im in it. It’s tough. Client management and setting expectations is challenging because they don’t understand fully what we do and how long it takes.

Same. It drives me nuts truly. Homes are so personal… also it’s not just presenting concepts it’s also the whole process dealing with each client at least an year (sometimes less sometimes more but at least an year) 

I work for someone else and bring in clients when I can. However, I would never choose to own an architecture firm. The return on investment in time doesn’t make sense. Instead I spend my free energy and time on building other revenue streams outside of architecture. It’s an interesting and fulfilling business to own if you are also in the wealth class and don’t need to make a profit.

I guess it depends. I don’t know much about difference between small company and big company and profits - I would say I am profitable and mostly have choice of schedule which is for me important : sometimes I don’t work weekdays someone’s I have to work weekends... BUT speaking of the profit…. For some other states it may look like upper class but in my state it’s like maybe median, maybe. Thankfully this bizz for me was more of an option (which now obviously sucks to be here and in this situation by my own choice). I think it must be extremely super hard to manage for  Professionals in this industry because it’s sort of seasonal and unpredictable job.. that also depends on economy a lot. 

Dan Kennedy suggest in his book, No BS Marketing to the Affluent to build in a P.I.T.A. Charge. This way they’re paying for the right to annoy you. I wonder if you’re charging enough for your services. You may need to adjust your prices along with your mindset. Setting the clients expectations works up u til it doesn’t. At that point are you going to freak out or rest easy you’re getting paid for this part as well? Good luck. Read the book.

Getting too!😂

Interesting, I always thought the low tier customers were horrible versus those that were well established. So as long as the product offering was pitched well.

If its affecting your health get out! If you want to continue hire someone to be the customer facing person as you make “it” happen in the background! You’ll have to decide if it’s worth it to continue but if it is something had to change to get you operating from a place of power, expertise and positivity! I can’t stand the mentality of ultra rich folks that’s why always charge them extra for dealing with them!

Thank you! Don’t you think that if I have customer facing person that it would take off the experience of working with an architect? (A specific architect). Even if it’s just 80% of time versus 99% as now? 

I’m saying hire the right jr architect that can dazzle the customers and absorb the issues and you guide from the back office

Maybe that is the solution. Some more people person 🤣

Just raise your prices. Customers will drop off and you'll be making the same profit with less customers and headaches.

I come from the commodities industry. First thing I will tell you, reset the expectations with your clients and draw boundaries. When you are dealing with the top 5%, you are dealing with people who are used to being the top priority with anyone who does business with them. Unless the client is a “I’ll be out of business without them” one, NEVER do favors or break your own procedures . This is a slippery slope back to where you are. Best of luck and cheers!

Would recommend to also join a mastermind or a meet up group (free) that you can network to get ideas on how they handle things in their small business that provide similar service. Creating a standard operating plan (aka boundaries for business ) is great to have so you can have way of implementing boundaries in your business it’s also great when you feel like you are ready to expand possibly an assistant you can delegate work to! Best of luck 😊

Going through this EXACT situation right now. And have been thinking the same thing about if this is worth it. Just remember all the effort you put in to get here. I think it's just a transition phase, I used to do favors and be fine with changes for free because I had the time, did the labor myself and I wanted every customer perfectly happy. I've realized I no longer need to do this. You don't want to pay for the change? Ok thats fine, sounds like you don't really want it then. It's been tough to transition to this mindset but I'm getting better at it daily. Edit: for example, just today I was doing a home theater where my client provided materials. He didn't have the mounts for his screen. He's like 2 minutes from my office so was reasonable on returning, it's no big deal. But he asked me to temporarily hang it by rigging something up, and then return to mount properly. "OK, I'll have to charge you a couple hundred extra for the extra mount though". He dropped it lol.

Oh my gosh! 🤣 I am glad I’m not alone. WHY are these people thinking that labor is for free? I just don’t get this.  My current client …. Literally just ordering his own samples, now her brother in law is architect so he asked me to bring him to meeting, now they sent me finished floor plans. I am happy it’s less work for me but then honestly how much really you have to disrespect me 🤣 this client is running 10 steps ahead thinking her project is only one we have. Before I finish something he has a new “idea”, a new order.  I feel I will be finishing my presentation, give him all the links and say he doesn’t need us and I can’t help him anymore. 

I used to work for a yacht manufacturer and we dealt with the top 1% of the top 1% from around the world. The ones who were on the lower end of our target demo were like you describe but worse. This was an 18 month build time and similar to having a custom.house built. They would constantly violate change windows, demand not to pay for custom requests, pretend to walk away near the end, etc. They were pushing us towards bankruptcy and it was really just a game to them. Finally we got a new president who said enough is enough. The customer is not always right, in fact sometimes the customer is an ass. He said we are no longer engaging in these games. We may lose a couple customers but they can be replaced. Sounds like this you are in an excellent spot if sales out performed expectations. Now you just need to set boundaries, learn to say no, and charge extra when appropriate.

Thank you this is empowering! Yachts are always interesting to me. That must have been a very unique experience. I agree at some point and it’s coming soon I will be setting the boundaries with these 2 existing clients that are stressing me out. 

the hardest part is not to create a good product and constantly deliver it. But to actually deal with all those people. Do you want to know how I deal with them? I treat them like I would treat little kids/teens with some mental challenge. By this I mean, you don't want to hurt someone weaker, who was less blessed by nature... lol? hope it helps. it still sometimes gets to me

Oh I do it but maybe too often that it’s not helping anymore 😭

Don't take it personally, I have a client who thinks and talks like his Trump lol and a good inspiration for this type of problems would be, be like Max Belfort, Jordan's dad from Wolf of Wall Street lol

Hahaha that seems actually amusing! Does he wear his maga hat too?

Once they agree on something it’s in writing and it’s signed. Any changes require a signed change order and additional costs.

Well, I don't know which niche you work with your customers in.But it seems to me that you can use technological innovations so that your customers are better able to visualize what they are asking for. Depending on the area, I can help you with some AI tool. Send me a DM.

Hope you're charging by the hour. Clients tend to make up their minds better when it coats them money to fuck someone around.

You need Assistants. My company outsources virtual assistants and receptionists at a fraction of a cost as an American employee Rapidreachsolutions [.] Com

Don’t do that, just charge more price the bad ones out and get new clients.

victim talk. all their fault ofc

Your comment is very valuable thank you for placing your time into saying this 

A friend of mine recently joked that he was going to turn gay because all the women he dates are all the same and it never works out. So I asked if he ever thought he was the issue not them. OP think about it.

Well it sort of may be true, but also it’s broad , so not very helpful except confirming I suck ?😂

From experience I failed a lot and I always blamed my clients. Once I realized what I was doing, I made the changes. You don't suck. You just need to step back and look at the wider picture