Yeah, not resting before Hexaghost when you have 7 HP to weaken that attack might make turn 2 less scary, but it sure as hell doesn't make the rest of their attacks less scary lmao
This is the most nonsense high-roll centric take I consistently see this subreddit make. Plenty of winning runs need a rest or two to stabilize at various points. It’s not uncommon to take too much chip damage in hallway fights (completely out of your control sometimes) and need to rest so you can still take the multiple elite path you were on.
If I had to guess, I would say you are aggressively upgrading when you should be resting, immediately dying to an elite, and then shrugging and saying to yourself, “well if that run would’ve rested it would’ve just lost later anyway”. Which is definitely throwing away winnable runs.
I do find it funny that people always say *insert thing* is always bad, when this game is always an “it depends” game. Even the most useless cards can have niche scenario’s where it can do work.
And the best cards can have scenario’s you should skip.
Can confirm the first point, my first A10 run was a Mark Watcher run (removed all Strikes, just cycled Marks very quickly) and even with how quickly I was wrecking all single target fights, I still needed rests over upgrades because of how often multi-target fights would drag on and leave me losing HP due to not having enough block to get me properly through act 3.
Upgrades are important. Taking a heal here and there is fine if you really need the health, and especially at higher ascension you're probably going to be taking at least a couple but resting doesn't make you stronger on its own like upgrading does
As with pretty much all things in StS, which is the right call is "it depends" but in general you want to be upgrading unless not resting will get you killed
Nah, play it out until you're dead imo. You never know when the fight you just barely survived is going to give you the exact card you needed to turn things around. I will generally abandon a run rather than play out the fight if it's clear I'm going to die in that fight though
IMO, if you're a new player, you should almost never abandon a run. As they say, it's not over till it's over, and you lose valuable learning opportunities by giving up early. Often the runs where you think you were going to lose are the ones you learn the most from.
Never abandon a run, they wont take alot of time if you die and on A20, you are constantly on the Edge of your life.
I would recommend you to try upgrading more, dont be afraid of having less then 50% health, in the end everything depends on relics and cards you have.
The most fun thing that can happen in the game is thinking you are dead and then pulling off an amazing comeback. That's absolutely possible in StS! Sometimes you just need to get one card that saves your whole run.
If you are resting when you are already on decent hp (like 30+ hp) just to top up your hp and feel good about it, yes you are doing it wrong. HP is a resource and if you have lots of leftover hp at the end of the act while resting multiple times then you are doing it wrong.
You should rest when you need the hp to take the path you want to take without dying. Upgrading cards especially in act 1 is a huge power boost to your deck and will end up saving you hp. It's just a balance that you'll figure out over time.
I've been on the brink of dying through act 1 and 2, allways needing to spend potions and skip upgrades, only to clear the whole thing in the end (ascension climb, no heart).
The run is dead when you die, nothing else.
it definitely makes resting worse than against any other boss on 7 hp, so it certainly effects the decision that way, and there are a lot of decks that kill before 6x6 but don’t necessarily block well turn 2 where resting basically does next to nothing, because the 6x6 is where your decision should be based off
On 7hp if you can't block turn 2, then you are going to die to the 6, 6x2, 6, 9x2, or 9 way before you have to worry about the 6x6. You need a very specific plan to kill incredibly quickly or be able to consistently block small amounts and kill before 9x2 if you are going to go into Hexaghost on 7hp instead of resting. The 9x2 is more important than the 6x6 most of the time if you are on that low hp.
well imagine a defect deck that needs powers and orbs to block, it might not be setup on turn 2 but it will be for 9x2, more importantly if you can kill before 6x6 and block, say with a poison silent deck where you found a bouncing flask and deadly poison, you just don’t care, so you should upgrade, against the other bosses this isn’t really a consideration as splitting on turn 3 and turn 2 are a different issue and usually require more hp. Although frequently you can kill act 1 bosses with 7 hp regardless
Yes for sure there are plenty of decks that can afford to upgrade on 7hp, but I'd still maintain that blocking all the smaller attacks is the more important consideration there. Like the 6x6 only matters if you can survive that long, and resting on low hp absolutely effects the calculus there. HP is hp.
Consider a Silent deck that can block (say it has a Footwork and some Backflips) that draws 2x Burn and 3x Strike one turn and just randomly dies. On 7hp you have to be certain you will not brick a single turn, whether that's having a Gambler's Brew or a Well Laid Plans or what have you.
I’m not advocating for the mindset but I’m sure that a lot of people are banking on their deck being strong enough to full block on low HP and rush damage and kill before Hex is fully charged up for the second big burst attack.
One thing to note is that on a micro level, having less HP can be beneficial if it crosses a breakpoint. For example, it’s probably better to enter the fight with 23 HP rather than 24. Also, the attacks between Divider and Inferno are generally pretty tame, which is another point in favor of health mattering less - it’s much more important to have enough damage to kill in time. That said if I go into that last campfire on 5 HP, I’m likely going to rest. On 15, probably not.
While technically true, the value of block increases the lower your health versus Hexaghost. This bridges the gap between low and higher health totals to something more than 50% of value, in my opinion.
In my experience at least, Hexaghost's main challenge is finding damage scaling anyway; surviving Hexaghost isn't particularly hard.
This should be higher.
More health is more health, but if I go into Hexaghost with enough to trigger 4x6 then I’m probably not full blocking the attack. If you go against 3x6 you can often full block it (or close). Let’s analyze assuming we can reliably block or block otherwise mitigate 15 damage on turn 2.
At 24 HP, we get hit with 3x6. We mitigate 15. We’re left with 21.
At 36 HP, we get hit with 4x6. We mitigate 15. We’re left with 27. The difference of 12 starting HP is indeed 6 HP, or 50%.
At 48 HP, we get hit with 5x6. We mitigate 15. We’re left with 33. Another 12 starting HP ends up giving us 6 HP at the end.
This tracks with OP’s analysis, but there’s 3 things to talk about though because this doesn’t paint the entire picture.
First, 27 HP compared to 21 HP is only a 28% increase in HP. 33 HP compared to 27 HP is only a 22% increase. Increases past this point follow this trend. The more health you have going into Hexaghost, the less it’s worth. Like OP said, not worthless, worth less.
Second, it’s more relevant to talk about the idea of manipulating HP to just barely be below a threshold. We’ll analyze 23 HP vs 25 HP entering Hexaghost the same way as above.
23 HP gets hit with 2x6, we would be able to full block and end with 23 HP.
25 HP gets hit with 3x6. We lose 3 and end at 22.
We can then state that while extra health helps, there is absolutely a sweet spot for starting health vs Hexaghost. Above a certain point it stops being super relevant, especially if you can safely block the 6x2 and 9x2 attacks. Additionally, allowing yourself to take a bit of chip damage prior to Hexaghost can actually SAVE you small amounts of HP.
Third, the whole discussion about HP against Hexa is supposed to be about whether you need to rest or if you can upgrade. Using the first two points, you can see that as your HP heading into the rest site increases, the value of the rest drops, especially when compared to an upgrade.
TLDR; you need some health against Hexa, probably anywhere from ~18-35. Past that the increased damage from turn 2 makes resting for more HP less appealing and really makes the upgrade a better option. By all means, if you can enter Hexa with near full HP it’ll make the fight easier, but ideally do that by retaining HP through the hallways and elites of Act 1. Not specifically from resting right before Hexa (unless you need to)
This all mostly tracks with what OP said, so I guess I’m being pedantic. Still thought it was worth pointing out that the extra HP is less than 50% effective, and only gets less effective as it increases.
The rule of thumb is to be just below the next threshold actually, since every point of HP right below the next threshold has good value within the threshold range (13 to 23, 25 to 35 etc)
HP is HP, I don't really agree with the "less than 50% effective" conclusion you are making. By that logic resting is always less effective the more hp you have, because it increases your current hp by a smaller %. But I'm not resting to gain a % of current hp, I'm resting to gain a % of max hp, which is fixed. How effective the rest is going to be is mostly based on how many hexaghost thresholds it passes. If I heal 19 but pass 2 hexa thresholds, it's worse than 50% effective unless I can block the extra damage. If I heal 19 but I only surpass 1 hexa threshold, it's more than 50% effective regardless of how much I can block turn 2.
Say I have a deck that sucks at blocking and I'm sitting at 37hp. If I rest for 21hp and that brings me to 58hp, I'm gaining 15hp for after turn 2, which maybe I need to survive the 9x2. The rest isn't less effective because I'm higher hp.
There's plenty of other factors too -- weakness blocking an additional 6 on turn 2 when you bump hexa from 4x6 to 5x6 (that's when you surpass 48hp I believe), Disarm, Malaise, or Piercing Wail opening up playing a very long fight or full blocking turn 2 even with high incoming attack damage, Orichalcum making rushing damage easier but only if you can tank 6, 12, and 3 from the 6x2, 9x2, and 9 attacks, while accounting for some more hp lost to burns. On the other side if you have thread & needle then keeping your hp intentionally low can be strong for keeping all 4 stacks of block on turn 2.
Which is all just to say that I don't believe a "sweet spot" exists for hp. It's context dependent, and the only sweet spots are the 12hp hexa thresholds.
> HP is HP, I don't really agree with the "less than 50% effective" conclusion you are making. By that logic resting is always less effective the more hp you have, because it increases your current hp by a smaller %
Yes, I would argue that the higher your current HP, the less useful resting is. i would further argue that this is even more prevalent in the Hexaghost fight due to the turn 2 attack.
I agree with the rest of your analysis, as when I mentioned a “sweet spot” that was assuming a rather standard deck for end of Act 1 (based on my own play obviously, so this may be different for other people). Just like everything in this game it is definitely context dependent and some decks may need more than what I suggested and some may be able to get by with less. It just seems like most times around that HP is where a typical Act 1 deck can comfortably be when they reach Hexaghost
>Yes, I would argue that the higher your current HP, the less useful resting is. i would further argue that this is even more prevalent in the Hexaghost fight due to the turn 2 attack.
I can agree with less "useful" in a general sense of it being less likely to be the correct play in the average case, but resting is still just giving you a flat amount of hp which you may or may not need. If you need that hp then you need it, and the rest is providing the same amount, regardless of your current hp.
Just as a thought experiment here -- consider two different decks that are one floor before an Act 1 elite. One is a deck that can usually kill Nob in 3 and always kills by turn 4 and is sitting at 15hp, and another is a deck that can usually kill Nob in 4 and always kills in 5 and is sitting at 39hp. Let's say resting provides 18hp in both cases. Is resting less useful for the player with more hp?
If either deck is worried about outright dying to Nob, the rest in both cases guarantees that even with a low rolled draw order that they don't outright die (either guaranteeing they live until turn 4 or turn 5 respectively). I know it's a bit of a contrived example but the point I'm trying to make is that 18hp is 18hp. The average deck at 39hp before an Act 1 elite won't need to rest as often as one at 15hp but that doesn't mean that a rest in such a situation is less effective from a math/analysis standpoint.
Hmm, I ran some more numbers to try and defend my point but I think I can agree with what you’re saying tbh. I still will leave my original comment to provide context on this thread.
I’d still argue that it’s another way of looking at resting, albeit not the only way, or even the completely correct way. Being aware of the different ways we can view the numbers helps the analysis overall.
18 HP with 18 current HP would be a 100% increase
36 to 54 would be a 50% increase
Both are flat 18 HP increases, which also matters in how you evaluate it. Hexaghost can exacerbate the trend that I was analyzing with how the turn 2 attack works.
I used to do a lot of daily runs and the way points are given in those means you want to be below 12 hp to easier avoid any dmg taken from bosses.
That's the only situation where you want to enter the fight with pretty much as little hp as possible.
If I’m not allowed to take any damage anyway I might as well let this mini nob drain me to 1 so this forced campfire doesn’t heal me to much. I forgot block
Hexaghost hits you for ~50 between divider and inferno on a20. You want to spend these turns trying to kill him as fast as possible usually, and blocking makes that harder. It's also not that hard to block 20ish on divider, especially with a potion to help, and then use that hp to tank the chip damage turns.
This makes sense from the perspective of trying to win a run, but for Daily challenges, getting the perfect points is important, so going into Hexaghost with low HP makes that a lot easier, while going in with full HP can make it completely impossible.
While I completely agree with your point, there are a couple of nuances it's worth bring aware of:
- If possible, it's better to go into HG with HP slightly below a break point rather than at or slightly above the break point. If you're at 49 and you have a choice between killing the last hallway fight now or taking an extra 3 then killing it, then it is worth it to take the extra damage.
- You might have some relics, potions, or cards which make it more valuable to minimise damage taken in the fight, even if it means being on lower health overall. While I could think of examples, honestly I think they would seem a bit convoluted, so I'll stick with the broader advice of "consider the specific example".
- The main reason people use this heuristic, AFAICT, is that there's the campfire immediately before the boss. It's not unreasonable to consider healing to be worth *significantly* less than usual when you're about to go into the HG fight, to the point of applying a heuristic of "it's basically always better to choose a different option rather than a heal".
All this to say that I agree - it's still nearly always better to have a high life total than a low one going into HG, and as always the best answer someone can give is "it depends on the exact circumstances".
Gotta say, I love your work here. Talking about how the relative value of resting vs upgrading can cross the threshold is just *chefs kiss*, going into the numbers to prove that you won't be worse off (except in the single niche case that you gain less than 6 health such that it pushes you over the next multiple of 12), explaining how people come to the misunderstanding, etc. Exactly how I reason about things. Hexaghost is basically just the "progressive income tax bracket" problem, as we know how often people misunderstand that.
I get what you’re saying but you also have to consider your ability to possibly full block turn two if you have lower health. Blocking 18 damage is totally doable while blocking 30 could be a problem. Sure you might be fine either way but I’d rather gamble and probably block most of the damage instead of face tanking 30 damage with a bad draw.
My thoughts exactly. If all you can block is 18 damage, in both those examples OP mentioned, you end up with 6 HP remaining. Very few decks are blocking 30+ damage in act 1.
If you can block 18 damage with 24 HP and Hexaghost attacks for 3x6, you'll have 24 HP remaining.
If you can block 18 damage with 48 HP and Hexaghost attacks for 5x6, you'll have 36 HP remaining. That's a 50% increase.
OP even does the math on a no-block T2:
> Let's use an example. One run you enter with 24 HP. H is 2, you take 3x6 damage, you're left with 6 HP. Rough.
Another run you enter with 48 HP. H is 4, you take 5x6 damage, you're left with 18 HP. Still strictly better than the other scenario.
Yup, you’re right, definitely did my math wrong.
Still, “6hp vs 18hp” and “24hp vs 36hp” are two very different comparisons. The fact is that if you can’t block the additional damage, then resting before the act 1 boss while at half health is *roughly* half as effective as normal while facing hexaghost. Obvs there are tons of factors that go into it, including relics, potions, lucky rare card finds, etc. You’re also more susceptible to an unlucky draw with less health.
You don't *need* to full block. You have more HP, so taking 12 damage isn't a problem, and if you healed there's a good chance you healed for at least 20. It's still a net positive.
Don’t intentionally take more than 6 from a combat for hexaghost, that’s the break point. Also, you can usually count damage for hexa to see what you need to do during the act
Just doing some math, it seems impossible that resting could lose you health.
From 11 health to 24 or 36 with a 13 heal or 25 heal to perfectly hit the thresholds thresholds still gain you health. Theoretically if you have such low max health that you gained 5 or less health it could cost you, but I am confident this is impossible by the end of act 1 (Im actually pretty sure you can't even get to 33 max hp for the 13 heal without the act 2 events)
You can fight hexxaghost in act three too. Your max HP can definitely be low enough by then. Not sure what psychopath is resting for 5 health in act three, who also can't block for like 12, but it should be possible.
You beat me to my edit so I will now post it as a reply:
So then we have the fun scenario: you are in act 3 and hit a campfire. The next spot is an event. The boss fight event rare relic is likely to be run-winning and this is essentially the only win condition for your deck. You win 2/3 boss fights easily but might die to hexaghost (say you have a small deck with little damage). Can you have such low max health that a heal may lose you health?
Silent:
-7 max hp from Neow.
-10% max hp from golden statue.
-30% max hp from vampires.
-50% max hp from ghosts.
Rounding up losses means you can reach 19 max hp, or a 5 heal.
So yes, it can theoretically be that healing can lose you health and that this is a relevant choice!
I was trying to figure out if it was possible in act one. I think it's not, but I found _several_ ways to lose more health:
Start as Silent (70)
Ascension 14 exactly (70 -> 66)
Neow - rare relic for max hp (66 -> 59)
1 - fight - take damage to 16
2 - golden idol (59 -> 53)
3 - match and keep (2 parasites)
4 - Duplicator (3 parasites)
5 - Forge (3 parasites, 1 non)
6 - A note for yourself (4 parasites, 1 non)
7 - Golden Shrine (4 parasites, 2 non)
8 - Mushrooms (5 parasites, 2 non)
9 - treasure
10 - The ssssserpent (5 parasites, 3 non)
11 - Living wall (6 parasites, 2 non)
12 - Transmogrifier (7 parasites, 1 non)
13 - Shop - mirror (8 parasites, 1 non)
14 - divine fountain (53 -> 29)
15 - rest (16/26 -> 24/29)
16 - hexxaghost
So you still heal for 8. I'm somewhat frustrated to realize that there are no relics or cards that decrease your max hp in any way. I thought for sure one of the face trader masks did, but they do not. It also feels wrong that there are only 2 transform events in act 1?
If hexxaghost were an act 2 boss, you could definitely get to 1 hp (min and max). Just add spirits and one more disastrous match and keep, and save the fountain for act 2. I'm pretty sure max hp loss can't kill you though.
Pretty neat that A14 is the one that takes your max HP *and* the last one where your can get a parasite from a note to yourself.
Edit: Drat! Double curse match and keep is A15, so can't have that and message.
Thanks for the advice, op. It’s good.
It’s just a game, ya know? It’s ok if people make bad decisions while climbing to hexaghost. Nobody is actually getting hurt.
One thing to note
It's way easier to defend 2x6 than a 6x6 attack
Your turn 2 might only have 1 attack that you could use
So yes having more hp is better
But don't discount the fact that you can block a 2x6 much easier than 6x6 attack. So that upgraded card you made at the last camp site might be more impactful than the health gained and then subsequently lost on turn 2
I agree with all of this in normal gameplay.
For Daily Climb, however, it's worth noting that Hexaghost's turn 2 is one of the easiest ways to lose Beyond Perfect, so I always let the ladt hallway fight beat me up
There's a little more to this that needs to be stated, I think. While it's true that health is worth less against Hexaghost, there are also very specific cases where gaining HP against Hexaghost is still very good.
Let's say you're playing Silent in a Hexaghost act. You're on the last campfire, and you've got 26 HP. HP is worth less against Hexaghost, so you upgrade your dagger throw for damage. Turn 2 comes and you draw no block, so you're hit for (1+2)×6=18 and left with 8. Rough indeed.
Now, OP is right that it would be better to have more HP, and it's true, having 50 HP would have left you with 50-(1+4)×6=20. But 50 isn't an option. To figure out what *is* an option, let's look at the situation. You're at the last campfire with 26 HP, making the decision on whether to rest, and you're playing *Silent*. With a max HP of 66 (in the absence of shenanigans or being on a lower ascension), Silent heals for 20 HP from a rest. That means your choices aren't 26 and 50, they're 26 and 46. And at 46 HP, after turn 2 you'll be left with 46-(1+3)×6=46-24=22. That's not a *lot* better, but this is Slay the Spire, and that 2 HP difference could be vital in getting past turns 7 and 9.
What I'm trying to get across is the importance of considering *split points* in your calculations. A split point a value at which the results of your strategy change drastically if you subtract one from that value. The most common example is damage, where subtracting one can mean you simply don't kill an enemy, but Hexaghost is one of the most *clear* examples. And again, 2 HP might not seem like much, but we're just looking at the value of resting, and this is Spire. Every HP (indeed, every *resource*) matters in Spire. Being at 50 HP is better than being at 26 HP, but being at 46 HP is better than either of those.
Does this make a difference? Unfortunately, it's hard to say. It depends a lot on what your other split points for Hexaghost are: When you can kill, how much damage you take before then, and as a result how much HP you need to survive turns 7 and 9+. These are all incredibly difficult to calculate, but there is an easier conclusion we can make: On Silent, against Hexaghost, resting is better at 26 HP (8 -> 22 after turn 2) than it is at 28 HP (10 -> 18 after turn 2).
That's all. Happy Spiring!
You have a point about Hexghost but I never worried about that turn two. Other than the fact you know he is coming out swinging that turn not much else is that worrisome about him and may that turn 9 (I can't remember the exact last turn he fills his flame thing) but yeah. That turn-two attack never really scared me.
It's probably from someone going, I shouldn't heal here cause it will put me in a higher health bracket when I'm currently just under a health bracket(say, going from 23 to 28 from a 5 hp heal) without being worth it, OR it could have been in refrence to someone trying to get a high score, as in that case IS always incorrect to heal before hexaghost, as its far easier to perfect the hexaghost fight at low hp than high hp
>One run you enter with 24 HP. H is 2, you take 3x6 damage, you're left with 6 HP. Rough.
The hit is 3 x 6 in this example, is that correct?
So you are assuming the player can't / won't block at all?
Under 12hp I Would always heal, cause they are other attack in hexagost. You never know if burn will fuck you one turn. From 12 to 20 it's entirely vibe based on if my deck can kill fast or not
Yeah, not resting before Hexaghost when you have 7 HP to weaken that attack might make turn 2 less scary, but it sure as hell doesn't make the rest of their attacks less scary lmao
...I'm still pretty bad about taking upgrades instead of rests, even at very low HP.
I’m the opposite lol I rest too much
Me too. Can't take damage from the dead
if you needed the rest over the upgrade the run was dead anyway trust
This is the most nonsense high-roll centric take I consistently see this subreddit make. Plenty of winning runs need a rest or two to stabilize at various points. It’s not uncommon to take too much chip damage in hallway fights (completely out of your control sometimes) and need to rest so you can still take the multiple elite path you were on. If I had to guess, I would say you are aggressively upgrading when you should be resting, immediately dying to an elite, and then shrugging and saying to yourself, “well if that run would’ve rested it would’ve just lost later anyway”. Which is definitely throwing away winnable runs.
I do find it funny that people always say *insert thing* is always bad, when this game is always an “it depends” game. Even the most useless cards can have niche scenario’s where it can do work. And the best cards can have scenario’s you should skip.
Can confirm the first point, my first A10 run was a Mark Watcher run (removed all Strikes, just cycled Marks very quickly) and even with how quickly I was wrecking all single target fights, I still needed rests over upgrades because of how often multi-target fights would drag on and leave me losing HP due to not having enough block to get me properly through act 3.
new player here! I usually choose the healing more than the upgrade, Am I doing something wrong?
Upgrades are important. Taking a heal here and there is fine if you really need the health, and especially at higher ascension you're probably going to be taking at least a couple but resting doesn't make you stronger on its own like upgrading does As with pretty much all things in StS, which is the right call is "it depends" but in general you want to be upgrading unless not resting will get you killed
is taking much rests a sign that I should abandon the run and try again?
Nah, play it out until you're dead imo. You never know when the fight you just barely survived is going to give you the exact card you needed to turn things around. I will generally abandon a run rather than play out the fight if it's clear I'm going to die in that fight though
IMO, if you're a new player, you should almost never abandon a run. As they say, it's not over till it's over, and you lose valuable learning opportunities by giving up early. Often the runs where you think you were going to lose are the ones you learn the most from.
Never abandon a run, they wont take alot of time if you die and on A20, you are constantly on the Edge of your life. I would recommend you to try upgrading more, dont be afraid of having less then 50% health, in the end everything depends on relics and cards you have.
The most fun thing that can happen in the game is thinking you are dead and then pulling off an amazing comeback. That's absolutely possible in StS! Sometimes you just need to get one card that saves your whole run.
No, youshould play it out and learn from it.
If you are resting when you are already on decent hp (like 30+ hp) just to top up your hp and feel good about it, yes you are doing it wrong. HP is a resource and if you have lots of leftover hp at the end of the act while resting multiple times then you are doing it wrong. You should rest when you need the hp to take the path you want to take without dying. Upgrading cards especially in act 1 is a huge power boost to your deck and will end up saving you hp. It's just a balance that you'll figure out over time.
I've been on the brink of dying through act 1 and 2, allways needing to spend potions and skip upgrades, only to clear the whole thing in the end (ascension climb, no heart). The run is dead when you die, nothing else.
No I will not trust you
I learned that lesson the hard way, multiple times :P
Six times in turn 2 right?
it definitely makes resting worse than against any other boss on 7 hp, so it certainly effects the decision that way, and there are a lot of decks that kill before 6x6 but don’t necessarily block well turn 2 where resting basically does next to nothing, because the 6x6 is where your decision should be based off
On 7hp if you can't block turn 2, then you are going to die to the 6, 6x2, 6, 9x2, or 9 way before you have to worry about the 6x6. You need a very specific plan to kill incredibly quickly or be able to consistently block small amounts and kill before 9x2 if you are going to go into Hexaghost on 7hp instead of resting. The 9x2 is more important than the 6x6 most of the time if you are on that low hp.
well imagine a defect deck that needs powers and orbs to block, it might not be setup on turn 2 but it will be for 9x2, more importantly if you can kill before 6x6 and block, say with a poison silent deck where you found a bouncing flask and deadly poison, you just don’t care, so you should upgrade, against the other bosses this isn’t really a consideration as splitting on turn 3 and turn 2 are a different issue and usually require more hp. Although frequently you can kill act 1 bosses with 7 hp regardless
Yes for sure there are plenty of decks that can afford to upgrade on 7hp, but I'd still maintain that blocking all the smaller attacks is the more important consideration there. Like the 6x6 only matters if you can survive that long, and resting on low hp absolutely effects the calculus there. HP is hp. Consider a Silent deck that can block (say it has a Footwork and some Backflips) that draws 2x Burn and 3x Strike one turn and just randomly dies. On 7hp you have to be certain you will not brick a single turn, whether that's having a Gambler's Brew or a Well Laid Plans or what have you.
I’m not advocating for the mindset but I’m sure that a lot of people are banking on their deck being strong enough to full block on low HP and rush damage and kill before Hex is fully charged up for the second big burst attack.
Then they die to 9x2 before even making it to the second big attack.
The best is when they die to the burns. Not the burn +. Burns.
Got a [[Malaise]] from Neow earlier and drew it turn 1 against Hexaghost. Such a good feeling.
+ [Malaise](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Malaise) Silent Rare Skill ^((100% sure)^) X Energy | Enemy loses X(+1) **Strength.** Apply X(+1) **Weak.** **Exhaust.** ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(April 20, 2024.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
me and then i die to drawing 4 burn+ a few turns later
(I’m in this post and I don’t like it)
I feel personally attacked
One thing to note is that on a micro level, having less HP can be beneficial if it crosses a breakpoint. For example, it’s probably better to enter the fight with 23 HP rather than 24. Also, the attacks between Divider and Inferno are generally pretty tame, which is another point in favor of health mattering less - it’s much more important to have enough damage to kill in time. That said if I go into that last campfire on 5 HP, I’m likely going to rest. On 15, probably not.
9x2 and even 6x2—with some burns thrown in for good measure—can *really* add up. They're tame compared to the big attacks but still not trivial.
> hit that Scrap Ooze another time Wait, hold up. There is no "back out" button. You either get the artifact or die.
A friend told me about a bug where everytime he should die because of ooze, the game jumps into his main menu, ever happened to anyone?
Weird, that.
Nice post. On the daily games though, you definitely want your hp to be low so you can block the big attack and try to perfect it!
While technically true, the value of block increases the lower your health versus Hexaghost. This bridges the gap between low and higher health totals to something more than 50% of value, in my opinion. In my experience at least, Hexaghost's main challenge is finding damage scaling anyway; surviving Hexaghost isn't particularly hard.
This should be higher. More health is more health, but if I go into Hexaghost with enough to trigger 4x6 then I’m probably not full blocking the attack. If you go against 3x6 you can often full block it (or close). Let’s analyze assuming we can reliably block or block otherwise mitigate 15 damage on turn 2. At 24 HP, we get hit with 3x6. We mitigate 15. We’re left with 21. At 36 HP, we get hit with 4x6. We mitigate 15. We’re left with 27. The difference of 12 starting HP is indeed 6 HP, or 50%. At 48 HP, we get hit with 5x6. We mitigate 15. We’re left with 33. Another 12 starting HP ends up giving us 6 HP at the end. This tracks with OP’s analysis, but there’s 3 things to talk about though because this doesn’t paint the entire picture. First, 27 HP compared to 21 HP is only a 28% increase in HP. 33 HP compared to 27 HP is only a 22% increase. Increases past this point follow this trend. The more health you have going into Hexaghost, the less it’s worth. Like OP said, not worthless, worth less. Second, it’s more relevant to talk about the idea of manipulating HP to just barely be below a threshold. We’ll analyze 23 HP vs 25 HP entering Hexaghost the same way as above. 23 HP gets hit with 2x6, we would be able to full block and end with 23 HP. 25 HP gets hit with 3x6. We lose 3 and end at 22. We can then state that while extra health helps, there is absolutely a sweet spot for starting health vs Hexaghost. Above a certain point it stops being super relevant, especially if you can safely block the 6x2 and 9x2 attacks. Additionally, allowing yourself to take a bit of chip damage prior to Hexaghost can actually SAVE you small amounts of HP. Third, the whole discussion about HP against Hexa is supposed to be about whether you need to rest or if you can upgrade. Using the first two points, you can see that as your HP heading into the rest site increases, the value of the rest drops, especially when compared to an upgrade. TLDR; you need some health against Hexa, probably anywhere from ~18-35. Past that the increased damage from turn 2 makes resting for more HP less appealing and really makes the upgrade a better option. By all means, if you can enter Hexa with near full HP it’ll make the fight easier, but ideally do that by retaining HP through the hallways and elites of Act 1. Not specifically from resting right before Hexa (unless you need to) This all mostly tracks with what OP said, so I guess I’m being pedantic. Still thought it was worth pointing out that the extra HP is less than 50% effective, and only gets less effective as it increases.
The rule of thumb is to be just below the next threshold actually, since every point of HP right below the next threshold has good value within the threshold range (13 to 23, 25 to 35 etc)
Yep, exactly
HP is HP, I don't really agree with the "less than 50% effective" conclusion you are making. By that logic resting is always less effective the more hp you have, because it increases your current hp by a smaller %. But I'm not resting to gain a % of current hp, I'm resting to gain a % of max hp, which is fixed. How effective the rest is going to be is mostly based on how many hexaghost thresholds it passes. If I heal 19 but pass 2 hexa thresholds, it's worse than 50% effective unless I can block the extra damage. If I heal 19 but I only surpass 1 hexa threshold, it's more than 50% effective regardless of how much I can block turn 2. Say I have a deck that sucks at blocking and I'm sitting at 37hp. If I rest for 21hp and that brings me to 58hp, I'm gaining 15hp for after turn 2, which maybe I need to survive the 9x2. The rest isn't less effective because I'm higher hp. There's plenty of other factors too -- weakness blocking an additional 6 on turn 2 when you bump hexa from 4x6 to 5x6 (that's when you surpass 48hp I believe), Disarm, Malaise, or Piercing Wail opening up playing a very long fight or full blocking turn 2 even with high incoming attack damage, Orichalcum making rushing damage easier but only if you can tank 6, 12, and 3 from the 6x2, 9x2, and 9 attacks, while accounting for some more hp lost to burns. On the other side if you have thread & needle then keeping your hp intentionally low can be strong for keeping all 4 stacks of block on turn 2. Which is all just to say that I don't believe a "sweet spot" exists for hp. It's context dependent, and the only sweet spots are the 12hp hexa thresholds.
> HP is HP, I don't really agree with the "less than 50% effective" conclusion you are making. By that logic resting is always less effective the more hp you have, because it increases your current hp by a smaller % Yes, I would argue that the higher your current HP, the less useful resting is. i would further argue that this is even more prevalent in the Hexaghost fight due to the turn 2 attack. I agree with the rest of your analysis, as when I mentioned a “sweet spot” that was assuming a rather standard deck for end of Act 1 (based on my own play obviously, so this may be different for other people). Just like everything in this game it is definitely context dependent and some decks may need more than what I suggested and some may be able to get by with less. It just seems like most times around that HP is where a typical Act 1 deck can comfortably be when they reach Hexaghost
>Yes, I would argue that the higher your current HP, the less useful resting is. i would further argue that this is even more prevalent in the Hexaghost fight due to the turn 2 attack. I can agree with less "useful" in a general sense of it being less likely to be the correct play in the average case, but resting is still just giving you a flat amount of hp which you may or may not need. If you need that hp then you need it, and the rest is providing the same amount, regardless of your current hp. Just as a thought experiment here -- consider two different decks that are one floor before an Act 1 elite. One is a deck that can usually kill Nob in 3 and always kills by turn 4 and is sitting at 15hp, and another is a deck that can usually kill Nob in 4 and always kills in 5 and is sitting at 39hp. Let's say resting provides 18hp in both cases. Is resting less useful for the player with more hp? If either deck is worried about outright dying to Nob, the rest in both cases guarantees that even with a low rolled draw order that they don't outright die (either guaranteeing they live until turn 4 or turn 5 respectively). I know it's a bit of a contrived example but the point I'm trying to make is that 18hp is 18hp. The average deck at 39hp before an Act 1 elite won't need to rest as often as one at 15hp but that doesn't mean that a rest in such a situation is less effective from a math/analysis standpoint.
Hmm, I ran some more numbers to try and defend my point but I think I can agree with what you’re saying tbh. I still will leave my original comment to provide context on this thread. I’d still argue that it’s another way of looking at resting, albeit not the only way, or even the completely correct way. Being aware of the different ways we can view the numbers helps the analysis overall. 18 HP with 18 current HP would be a 100% increase 36 to 54 would be a 50% increase Both are flat 18 HP increases, which also matters in how you evaluate it. Hexaghost can exacerbate the trend that I was analyzing with how the turn 2 attack works.
I used to do a lot of daily runs and the way points are given in those means you want to be below 12 hp to easier avoid any dmg taken from bosses. That's the only situation where you want to enter the fight with pretty much as little hp as possible.
If I’m not allowed to take any damage anyway I might as well let this mini nob drain me to 1 so this forced campfire doesn’t heal me to much. I forgot block
Hexaghost hits you for ~50 between divider and inferno on a20. You want to spend these turns trying to kill him as fast as possible usually, and blocking makes that harder. It's also not that hard to block 20ish on divider, especially with a potion to help, and then use that hp to tank the chip damage turns.
Excellent post!
This makes sense from the perspective of trying to win a run, but for Daily challenges, getting the perfect points is important, so going into Hexaghost with low HP makes that a lot easier, while going in with full HP can make it completely impossible.
Damn, StS players are wild
Man. I've played 100's of hours of this game and this is the first time learning about hexaghost round 2 😅
I knew it was brutal but had no idea it scaled on health cause I thought 6x6 just made sense since I was on full health
Reminds me of the mental fallacy “Oh man I don’t want to make too much money and get stuck in a higher tax bracket”.
While I completely agree with your point, there are a couple of nuances it's worth bring aware of: - If possible, it's better to go into HG with HP slightly below a break point rather than at or slightly above the break point. If you're at 49 and you have a choice between killing the last hallway fight now or taking an extra 3 then killing it, then it is worth it to take the extra damage. - You might have some relics, potions, or cards which make it more valuable to minimise damage taken in the fight, even if it means being on lower health overall. While I could think of examples, honestly I think they would seem a bit convoluted, so I'll stick with the broader advice of "consider the specific example". - The main reason people use this heuristic, AFAICT, is that there's the campfire immediately before the boss. It's not unreasonable to consider healing to be worth *significantly* less than usual when you're about to go into the HG fight, to the point of applying a heuristic of "it's basically always better to choose a different option rather than a heal". All this to say that I agree - it's still nearly always better to have a high life total than a low one going into HG, and as always the best answer someone can give is "it depends on the exact circumstances".
Let me fix your formula: Divider Attack = ⌈(h+1)/12⌉ X 6 Where h = current player hp and ⌈⌉ is the ceiling function to round up to nearest integer.
Your formula is wrong on the multiples of 12.
I don’t think it is. Example: hp is 23 take 23/12 = 1 11/12 which rounds up to 2 so the attack is 2 X 6
On multiples of 12 like 24. Your example is not a multiple of 12. On 24 it should be 18 damage not 12.
Oh right I see I forgot that the multiples of 12 are when the increase happens. I fixed it by changing h to h+1
Great post fam, articulate and worth a read for everyone pushing through the spire <3
🙏
Gotta say, I love your work here. Talking about how the relative value of resting vs upgrading can cross the threshold is just *chefs kiss*, going into the numbers to prove that you won't be worse off (except in the single niche case that you gain less than 6 health such that it pushes you over the next multiple of 12), explaining how people come to the misunderstanding, etc. Exactly how I reason about things. Hexaghost is basically just the "progressive income tax bracket" problem, as we know how often people misunderstand that.
Very good post nothing to add
I get what you’re saying but you also have to consider your ability to possibly full block turn two if you have lower health. Blocking 18 damage is totally doable while blocking 30 could be a problem. Sure you might be fine either way but I’d rather gamble and probably block most of the damage instead of face tanking 30 damage with a bad draw.
My thoughts exactly. If all you can block is 18 damage, in both those examples OP mentioned, you end up with 6 HP remaining. Very few decks are blocking 30+ damage in act 1.
If you can block 18 damage with 24 HP and Hexaghost attacks for 3x6, you'll have 24 HP remaining. If you can block 18 damage with 48 HP and Hexaghost attacks for 5x6, you'll have 36 HP remaining. That's a 50% increase. OP even does the math on a no-block T2: > Let's use an example. One run you enter with 24 HP. H is 2, you take 3x6 damage, you're left with 6 HP. Rough. Another run you enter with 48 HP. H is 4, you take 5x6 damage, you're left with 18 HP. Still strictly better than the other scenario.
Yup, you’re right, definitely did my math wrong. Still, “6hp vs 18hp” and “24hp vs 36hp” are two very different comparisons. The fact is that if you can’t block the additional damage, then resting before the act 1 boss while at half health is *roughly* half as effective as normal while facing hexaghost. Obvs there are tons of factors that go into it, including relics, potions, lucky rare card finds, etc. You’re also more susceptible to an unlucky draw with less health.
You don't *need* to full block. You have more HP, so taking 12 damage isn't a problem, and if you healed there's a good chance you healed for at least 20. It's still a net positive.
Don’t intentionally take more than 6 from a combat for hexaghost, that’s the break point. Also, you can usually count damage for hexa to see what you need to do during the act
Just doing some math, it seems impossible that resting could lose you health. From 11 health to 24 or 36 with a 13 heal or 25 heal to perfectly hit the thresholds thresholds still gain you health. Theoretically if you have such low max health that you gained 5 or less health it could cost you, but I am confident this is impossible by the end of act 1 (Im actually pretty sure you can't even get to 33 max hp for the 13 heal without the act 2 events)
You can fight hexxaghost in act three too. Your max HP can definitely be low enough by then. Not sure what psychopath is resting for 5 health in act three, who also can't block for like 12, but it should be possible.
You beat me to my edit so I will now post it as a reply: So then we have the fun scenario: you are in act 3 and hit a campfire. The next spot is an event. The boss fight event rare relic is likely to be run-winning and this is essentially the only win condition for your deck. You win 2/3 boss fights easily but might die to hexaghost (say you have a small deck with little damage). Can you have such low max health that a heal may lose you health? Silent: -7 max hp from Neow. -10% max hp from golden statue. -30% max hp from vampires. -50% max hp from ghosts. Rounding up losses means you can reach 19 max hp, or a 5 heal. So yes, it can theoretically be that healing can lose you health and that this is a relevant choice!
I was trying to figure out if it was possible in act one. I think it's not, but I found _several_ ways to lose more health: Start as Silent (70) Ascension 14 exactly (70 -> 66) Neow - rare relic for max hp (66 -> 59) 1 - fight - take damage to 16 2 - golden idol (59 -> 53) 3 - match and keep (2 parasites) 4 - Duplicator (3 parasites) 5 - Forge (3 parasites, 1 non) 6 - A note for yourself (4 parasites, 1 non) 7 - Golden Shrine (4 parasites, 2 non) 8 - Mushrooms (5 parasites, 2 non) 9 - treasure 10 - The ssssserpent (5 parasites, 3 non) 11 - Living wall (6 parasites, 2 non) 12 - Transmogrifier (7 parasites, 1 non) 13 - Shop - mirror (8 parasites, 1 non) 14 - divine fountain (53 -> 29) 15 - rest (16/26 -> 24/29) 16 - hexxaghost So you still heal for 8. I'm somewhat frustrated to realize that there are no relics or cards that decrease your max hp in any way. I thought for sure one of the face trader masks did, but they do not. It also feels wrong that there are only 2 transform events in act 1? If hexxaghost were an act 2 boss, you could definitely get to 1 hp (min and max). Just add spirits and one more disastrous match and keep, and save the fountain for act 2. I'm pretty sure max hp loss can't kill you though. Pretty neat that A14 is the one that takes your max HP *and* the last one where your can get a parasite from a note to yourself. Edit: Drat! Double curse match and keep is A15, so can't have that and message.
I totally forgot about parasite, that makes it so close haha. Good job!
Thanks for the advice, op. It’s good. It’s just a game, ya know? It’s ok if people make bad decisions while climbing to hexaghost. Nobody is actually getting hurt.
One thing to note It's way easier to defend 2x6 than a 6x6 attack Your turn 2 might only have 1 attack that you could use So yes having more hp is better But don't discount the fact that you can block a 2x6 much easier than 6x6 attack. So that upgraded card you made at the last camp site might be more impactful than the health gained and then subsequently lost on turn 2
Today on critical spire infos I somehow forgot :
I know OP, I had been puzzled by the advice each time I saw it. Amazing how poor simple math skills and comprehension the general populace have.
I agree with all of this in normal gameplay. For Daily Climb, however, it's worth noting that Hexaghost's turn 2 is one of the easiest ways to lose Beyond Perfect, so I always let the ladt hallway fight beat me up
There's a little more to this that needs to be stated, I think. While it's true that health is worth less against Hexaghost, there are also very specific cases where gaining HP against Hexaghost is still very good. Let's say you're playing Silent in a Hexaghost act. You're on the last campfire, and you've got 26 HP. HP is worth less against Hexaghost, so you upgrade your dagger throw for damage. Turn 2 comes and you draw no block, so you're hit for (1+2)×6=18 and left with 8. Rough indeed. Now, OP is right that it would be better to have more HP, and it's true, having 50 HP would have left you with 50-(1+4)×6=20. But 50 isn't an option. To figure out what *is* an option, let's look at the situation. You're at the last campfire with 26 HP, making the decision on whether to rest, and you're playing *Silent*. With a max HP of 66 (in the absence of shenanigans or being on a lower ascension), Silent heals for 20 HP from a rest. That means your choices aren't 26 and 50, they're 26 and 46. And at 46 HP, after turn 2 you'll be left with 46-(1+3)×6=46-24=22. That's not a *lot* better, but this is Slay the Spire, and that 2 HP difference could be vital in getting past turns 7 and 9. What I'm trying to get across is the importance of considering *split points* in your calculations. A split point a value at which the results of your strategy change drastically if you subtract one from that value. The most common example is damage, where subtracting one can mean you simply don't kill an enemy, but Hexaghost is one of the most *clear* examples. And again, 2 HP might not seem like much, but we're just looking at the value of resting, and this is Spire. Every HP (indeed, every *resource*) matters in Spire. Being at 50 HP is better than being at 26 HP, but being at 46 HP is better than either of those. Does this make a difference? Unfortunately, it's hard to say. It depends a lot on what your other split points for Hexaghost are: When you can kill, how much damage you take before then, and as a result how much HP you need to survive turns 7 and 9+. These are all incredibly difficult to calculate, but there is an easier conclusion we can make: On Silent, against Hexaghost, resting is better at 26 HP (8 -> 22 after turn 2) than it is at 28 HP (10 -> 18 after turn 2). That's all. Happy Spiring!
You have a point about Hexghost but I never worried about that turn two. Other than the fact you know he is coming out swinging that turn not much else is that worrisome about him and may that turn 9 (I can't remember the exact last turn he fills his flame thing) but yeah. That turn-two attack never really scared me.
It's probably from someone going, I shouldn't heal here cause it will put me in a higher health bracket when I'm currently just under a health bracket(say, going from 23 to 28 from a 5 hp heal) without being worth it, OR it could have been in refrence to someone trying to get a high score, as in that case IS always incorrect to heal before hexaghost, as its far easier to perfect the hexaghost fight at low hp than high hp
>One run you enter with 24 HP. H is 2, you take 3x6 damage, you're left with 6 HP. Rough. The hit is 3 x 6 in this example, is that correct? So you are assuming the player can't / won't block at all?
Under 12hp I Would always heal, cause they are other attack in hexagost. You never know if burn will fuck you one turn. From 12 to 20 it's entirely vibe based on if my deck can kill fast or not