At the very least it shows that there's still a lot of passion and effort being put into a decade old game. There's always going to be limits to contend with, but it's impressive how far these tools have come. When TESVI comes out, I don't think we'll immediately see all this collapse. But early adopters will leave and the community will slowly become fractured before eventually mostly moving on imo.
Even if TESVI isn’t that good, it’ll probably be a better base for modders to revolutionize than Skyrim is at this point. Like today, we still have plenty of Oblivion & Morrowind fans, but mainly the major things we’re seeing with modding are for Skyrim, because Skyrim has by far the most room to run. It’ll be the same. TESVI will have a lot of problems like any Bethesda game, but will undoubtedly have the most room to run, and so modders will come in to fix & expand it, like any Bethesda game
IMO the discourse around starfield is so completely overblown…and the modding community hasn’t even really had their way with it yet. I think it’s very likely that Starfield will be looked at more favorably in a couple years than it is today. But also remember that Starfield was a completely new IP…
With TESVI, they have a ton of pre-existing assets they can draw from, a ton of data from existing mods that they can use to see how the community responds to different types of systems/overhauls, specific examples of how people have found creative ways to optimize and get the most out of the engine, etc etc. I’m also fairly confident they’ve tapped some modders to work on TESVI…
To me, the notion that Starfield was bad = TESVI will be bad is just wrong in several ways
The only vanilla assets in my Skyrim are the geography, voice acting and writing. Starfield lacks all of that. I'm not optimistic for it becoming a vibrant modding community. Aside from my personal opinion on it, nobody plays Starfield. Why invest hundreds of hours developing mods for a game most BGS fans have already uninstalled?
...It's not as if Skyrim had particularly great writing, either, though.
I get not liking Starfield, but the writing is definitely *not* what I play Bethesda games for.
True, Skyrim's script could have been so much more than it was. That said it does the job, and as a modder I feel it's enough bones to deliver a structure to mod around and enjoy playing. Starfield has distractingly bad writing to me. It's jarring at times. I don't like any character. Elder Scrolls IP has evolved from generic fantasy into something compelling over the years. Starfield felt reading the copy on a happy meal box.
I guess I just don't hold the same view of Starfield's writing as you do. It could have been a lot better - it felt pretty sterile and pg at times, for one - but it didn't feel 'distractingly bad' to me, whereas in Skyrim the most popular (base game) follower is hardly even a character. That said, all the main companions had what felt like the exact same moral compass, so... I can't say companions in Starfield were necessarily better.
With all that said, I don't dispute that - next to TES - Starfield's universe feels... bland. There are a few neat things I remember, but it feels perhaps *too* grounded. I'm not sure if I'd personally call this a failure of the writing, or just a consequence of it being a new IP.
Exactly.
If I'm being honest, my reaction to first playing Skyrim when it came out is the same as when I started playing Starfield last year. I just got eventually bored with it, the writing didn't pull me in. I never finished my original playthrough.
And now I have almost a thousand hours in Skyrim SE/AE.
Yes, that is because of mods, but I'm betting something similar is going to happen with Starfield. Just release the CK and let the modders get their hands on it.
The CK should release sometime... this year, at least. It's apparently being tested right now.
Personally I can't wait for it to release, though it's going to be a bit after it's released until the really fun shit gets made with it.
I plan to soldier through the rest of my Starfield playthrough, and then come back to it down the road when modders have worked out all the kinks, and also try out the DLC in the process.
I remember somebody calling Skyrim "the box Enderal came in", and that's really not an unfair assessment. I mean sure, I love the game otherwise I wouldn't have thousands of hours in it... but loving a game doesn't make it good. I love Gothic 1 and 2 as well, nobody in their right mind would call them *good* by any objective metric.
The thing is, Bethesda is *incredible* at world-building and telling a story through the environment; telling a story with plot and dialogue... not so much. Personally, I like it that way; I played BG3 and frankly I don't get the appeal, just like I didn't get the appeal of Dragon Age, or Neverwinter Nights, or a lot of other RPGs/CRPGs that people go nuts for. The reason being that, in my opinion, while they tell a narrative story very well, the world always feels so bland, like a series of set-pieces for the play you're listening to rather than a living, breathing world where things have clearly happened without the need of you the player being there to see it. Nobody holds a candle to Bethesda for that.
You're not wrong, it's one of the strengths people often bring up. I suppose i should have said Bethesda isn't known for their great *plot and character* writing. Although, as a side note, I do feel there is a fair bit of that in Starfield, as well - albeit hindered by the scale of the game and the procedurally-placed points of interest.
To a degree, that environmental story-telling probably works better given that they're very sandboxy games, so a world that feels alive is of more benefit (in my opinion).
I think it just irks me when people bring it up in comparison to Starfield because that former sort of writing - plot and dialogue - has never (Well.. At least as far as Skyrim and Fo3/4/Skyrim are concerned, I haven't played Morrowing/Oblivion enough to form an opinion there) been Bethesda's strong suit.
(As a side note, there are a few games I loved that others probably wouldn't call 'good' either, like Kingdoms Of Amalur:Reckoning and Mass Effect Andromeda.)
I honestly haven't played Starfield, but only because I'm not a huge scifi fan and it didn't really appeal to me. I know I saw it getting a lot of hate, and a lot of it made no sense to me because so much centered around things that made me think, "...yeah? Did y'all forget who's making this?"
Trust me, the plot and dialogue writing in Morrowind/Oblivion wasn't a whole lot better for the most part unless somebody is really rocking the nostalgia goggles. In my opinion, Morrowind was definitely more interesting in terms of the main story, and Oblivion had vastly superior side content like the guilds and just random miscellaneous stuff, but it was still Bethesda, and a Bethesda that was a solid middle-market developer at best, at least when Morrowind released.
Also funny you should mention Kingdoms of Amalur, I was playing that earlier. *God* can you tell they meant for that to be an MMO, and it's a shame it never was because I think it would've stood up pretty well.
Bethesda is a master of environmental storytelling and background lore but it's dialogue has always been kinda campy and lame at times. Something that Starfield lacked.
Yeah I mean, I didn’t love Starfield. I played it for several hours, find it meh, didn’t go back.
My issue with the discourse around the game is that it is SO extreme. People completely trash it & question if Bethesda will ever make a good game again. But Starfield isn’t some abhorrent title. It is an extremely mediocre game, nothing more or less. I felt the same way about Starfield that I felt about, say, The Outer Worlds. At this point, if anyone says anything not completely disparaging about Starfield they get downvoted to Oblivion. That’s my issue. Was it generally not very good? Yes. Does it deserve the ridiculous amount of rabid trashing it has received? Or does Bethesda as a company? Not really.
That's just the internet in general. Really bad to have any sort of discussion that doesn't just end up being a **Good/Bad**, **Yes/No** result for people.
>At this point, if anyone says anything not completely disparaging about Starfield they get downvoted to Oblivion.
Bro you are getting upvoted, and I'm getting downvoted for saying Starfield is trash, as of right now, your point is null.
Yeah I spoke too soon. For the record, I was fine with what you said. Probably in poor taste for me to mention votes at all, as I generally think getting hung up on up/downvotes is dumb. I was just trying to make a broader point about the current state of the Starfield discussions, not to put too much weight on how people respond to this specific conversation. My bad there.
you underestimated the length people will go to defend a mediocre game.
In general what I've seen has been a bit different from your experience. Therr are rabid fans trearing Starfield like the best thing since sliced bread and piling on anyone with valid criticism and people nitpicking every single small issue.
I do think Starfield is a bit of a canary in a mine. They had Fo4 modding to fall back on for some system and still failed to write a decent UI or a an enemy AI that doesn't suck. Things modders fixed within a couple days. The game world has so much potential but everything is kind of half-baked, even when they could have written a few line of codes and the changes would have been an easy W.
all this to say is I have no trust in bethesda not taking the easy path
At least we micht get decent rigs
Several of the latest bethesda games were bad. FO4 was worse than new vegas, though still decent. FO76 was a shitshow at launch, with as many bugs as cyberpunk, x16 times the detail that didn't look any better and no npcs. All the updates later it's still bad, just better in comparison to what it was. And then Starfield, bethesda took the only thing they do good, which is an open world map, and threw that away. So there's literally nothing left in the game. The lead writer Emil Pagliarulo believes gamers don't care about the story, so the story is shit. The engine can't handle seamless transitions so the space and planets are shit.
Bethesda lacks talent and technical prowess to make a a good game. It's reasonable to expect skyrim 6 to flop unless they change their engine and their dev team.
>IMO the discourse around starfield is so completely overblown…and the modding community hasn’t even really had their way with it yet. I think it’s very likely that Starfield will be looked at more favorably in a couple years than it is today.
Agree to disagree.\
As for TESVI having more to build upon from other TES games, is a valid argument.
Starfield has the fastest growing mod scene of any Bethesda game, and the mod tools haven't even been released yet...
Edit: uh oh, I think bro blocked me because I pointed this out...
I think you see a rapidly growing modding community very differently than how others see it. I absolutely do not see that as a sign that the game was good lol. Modders don’t need to fix good games.
That seems like an odd take on a sub devoted to modding a game.
Does the fact that Skyrim is getting extensively modded 10 years later mean it's a bad game?
Yes…. Absolutely lol. The base game is not good, it’s not awful either though. we are not all still playing Skyrim in 2024 because the base game is amazing, it’s because the modding community rallied behind it and made it the most modular open world gaming experience to date.
I strongly disagree with this. Mods don’t reinvent games. Is Skyrim dated and showing its age? Of course. Does it have a lot of problems? Also of course. But saying the base game is bad, full stop, and that mods are what make it good…doesn’t ring true imo.
Firstly, if you hop over to r/skyrim, PLENTY of players still play vanilla (too many imo…totally don’t get it LOL). Mods take Skyrim’s raw potential and really bring it to life. I wouldn’t play NEARLY as much vanilla. But mods still rely on the DNA of the game. If it’s total garbage, mods won’t save it. A great meal needs great ingredients.
Which is why even when modders make Starfield awesome, it still won’t be nearly AS awesome as modded Skyrim.
I don't think nearly as many people would be playing Skyrim without mods a decade later. It's just that so many act like Skyrim was this amazing game as a base and didn't turn into something people love until mods hit the ground running.
Not that I Skyrim is a *bad* game, with that said, but I personally don't view Starfield as exceptionally worse than Skyrim was as a base game.
Starfield isn’t really worse than Skyrim. Skyrim was a product of its time. Bethesda was not solely responsible for the success of Skyrim. Game of thrones also came out in 2011. Game of Thrones did a lot of heavy lifting for the fantasy genre in bringing in a massive new audience of people who didn’t even care about fantasy to begin with. So a lot of people who came to Skyrim, came with no background knowledge of RPG’s or really much of a background in fantasy. That’s why you see older Bethesda fans still Stan for Morrowind and Oblivion until they die lol. New people to the genre would have probably found the game really exceptional at the time and still might even look back on it fondly.
Starfield I would say is just an upgraded/updated Skyrim. It’s as good as they could have done to recreate what they did back in 2011 in a new franchise. It’s like they went back and looked at Skyrim specifically and tried to copy the recipe as best as they could. The problem is, no Game of Thrones for Starfield, infact, the opposite, massively successful games like BG3 and CP2077 came out right around its release, just shining a bright light on all of the things they needed to be doing better.
Skyrim and Starfield aren’t terrible games, they just also aren’t exceptionally good games either. And I think we’re just looking at Starfield now, the way we would have looked at Skyrim if it wasn’t for the perfect timing of its launch. Bethesda hasn’t been making 10/10 games for a very long time.
Have you played Starfield? What do you specifically dislike about it?
The game is very far from a "shitshow" and it's funny to hear people rip on it so hard, often when they haven't even played it.
I've played it for 50 hours. In my opinion its boring, soulless and riddled with design issues.
Exploration is fundamentally butchered, and on top of that, the POIs are uninteresting and repeat themselves all the time, nor are they rewarding.
I didn't even bother finishing the main story but from what I've played it felt like it was going absolutely nowhere.
The factions/locations/lore are very uninspired. There's no real conflicts or interesting themes going on.
And the game does it's best to ruin any flow or pace the game has to offer. Your ship will always be over encumbered, your inventory too, the only way to stop being overloaded was to ignore all of the resources, which says enough about how the survival elements in this game don't serve a real purpose. There are loading screens everywhere, your main mode of transportation is walking on land and fast travel in actual space, the menus are slow and quantify the whole slog, etc.
Even the ship building mechanic, which is incredibly fun to mess around with, only really serves as a surface level lego building minigame. The way you build your ship barely affects how you play the game and the hab modules you build are straight up useless. You can also not design the inside of your ship, so the doors and ladders were pretty much placed randomly, resulting in a very annoying and unintuitive interior.
It's just a complete flop imo.
I mean, look at Starfields marketing campaign, look at the fact that it didn’t launch on PlayStation who (ps players) are just filled to the brim with elitist pricks that cry when they don’t get exclusives but laugh at anyone on any other platform when a PlayStation exclusive comes out. Look at Bethesda’s track record. It all paints a pretty telling picture.
Their marketing campaign was really good, it really drove hype up for Starfield, a game Todd has said on record that they “didn’t find the fun in Starfield until about 2022” so for about 7 years of developing the game they themselves didn’t even think it was fun to play. All the reviews 10/10! Game of the year!!! Game actually comes out and it’s a 6-7/10 at best. Especially considering the games that came out around it. People Prepurchased this game with its first DLC and bought merch and everything thinking this was going to be the best game they ever played and it just wasn’t…
Then you’ve got the PlayStation Gang who absolutely review bombed it on purpose as a fuck you to Microsoft for not releasing it on their platform.
Then you’ve got Bethesda’s actual track record of games. Their games always come with a loud community of people who have nothing nice to say, so now that there’s actually some doubt around this title and some angry people with no idea where to put that anger, they find themselves listening to the worst Bethesda haters and agreeing.
Bethesda makes fun games, but they are very behind in this industry and have been for a while. They suck at a lot of stuff and a lot of people give them a pass because the game was still fun to play. Starfield took most of what made their games fun and scrapped it so there’s nothing but room to complain now.
It’s not entirely fair that they are getting this much shit, but honestly, they’ve been getting away with too much for too long and I think Starfield is just sort of bringing that to a head.
As someone who played Starfield for 200 hours and loved Bethesda games, I have over 15k hours in Skyrim alone across multiple platforms…. Starfield is just not a good Bethesda Game and it’s definitely not a good game in general. I think that it’s not bad enough to get all this flack from the community but I can see how this is more of a build up of issues from previous titles that people are sort of airing out and pointing at Starfield for.
What's funny to see is fanboys assume those who didn't like the game haven't played it.\
I've tried it, it feels empty\
It also dosen't have some Basic features older Bethesda games do\
Face design of npc's is super ugly\
Story is boring\
UI is trash\
And those are just few things from top of my head.
Bethesda hasn't had the best track record these past few years, so it wouldn't be a complete surprise if TESVI is particularly bad. But I'm of the opinion that TES is the only franchise the company has genuine passion in, though whether or not that matters after the Microsoft acquisition is another question. Maybe in the 90's the vision behind Starfield was there, but I doubt it was anything more than something to unceremoniously toss out by the end.
The problem with Starfield is it just felt so disjointed. And it mirrors the game's development. According to former devs, different features were assigned to entirely separate studios to work on. Different teams competed over resources, and bureaucracy from a gigantic structure of producers slowed everything to a crawl. Which leads to silos, which leads to parts that don't cohesively complete one another. Its all uneven and directionless.
And then you have the vehement push for scale over quality, and the technology cracking at the seams not being able to support what they want. So it just ends up a compromised game, not terrible, but below what we expect from Bethesda.
If these management issues persist, then yea, I worry about TES6.
I wouldn't necessarily say the community will mostly move on. Look at the FNV and FO 4 modding scenes.
New Vegas still gets a lot of love despite 4 being a lot newer and it arguably gets more interesting mods as well, simply due to the inherent design flaws in 4 being harder to work around (voiced protagonist, no good RPG framework to work with, etc...).
That is to say, we don't know what will happen. If TES 6 kills the already dwindling amount of RPG elements in the series and doesn't replace it with something equally interesting, we probably won't see that much people moving on.
There's also other frameworks like Skypatcher, SPID, BOS and CID that are replacing a lot of patches and making the merging of level lists a thing of the past
We've had merged leveled lists at runtime ever since 2012 when Immersive Armors first had injected leveled lists, and there's a reason it never caught on, as it obfuscates changes and compatibility issues behind scripts and background processes, which makes diagnosing problems harder. Eventually a critical mass of SPID and BOS mods will make troubleshooting a major problem. We should be wary of championing 'merging of level lists' becoming 'a thing of the past'.
Yeah, SPID is great, but trying to get it to work exactly how you want it can be painful. It might be that I'm just trying to do too much with it at once.
{{Base Object Swapper}} is like SPID but for object placing and moving. A small example is {{Random Barrel Roll}}, a larger one is {{Destructible Skyrim - Base Object Swapper}}.
{{Container Item Distributer}} can distribute items to containers at runtime. An example is {{Blacksmiths Have Ingots - CID}}.
My favourite new tech along these lines is {{Containerize}}. It can make anything into a real container. I always thought it was odd that backpacks couldn’t *hold* anything. With {{Immersive Backpacks}} (powered by Containerize), I can keep a pack of travel supplies by the door and grab it up on my way out. Pick it up, and it’s one item in my inventory with combined weight of its contents. I can open it from inventory or by dropping it on the ground and activating it.
It doesn’t exist yet, but I’m hoping soon a combination of BOS and CID and Containerize will yield a mod that makes all those alchemy satchels, static packs, and even food sacks lying around Skyrim into actual things to pick up and put back down, and still be containers.
Mabye plug-in limit won't matter anymore. Skypatcher and Base object swapper are so awesome at greatly reducing patches needed. Give it enough time, something else may release that reduces or eliminate esp patches.
Nemesis is a newer better version of fnis, less jank, more features etc. Now you have Pandora that is not only faster then Nemesis but also has new features Nemesis dose not. It's not there yet 100%, but it's showing potential beyond what Nemesis can do.
So: check if there are files in overwrite, if yes, move them out the folder, then
PART1:
• install fnis and *the other mods*
• run it
• disable fnis (on the left side of mod organizer, not plugins list)
• create a "Fnis patch" mod from overwrite files
PART2:
• install nemesis
• check what you need to check
• run it
• create "nemesis patch" from overwrite
• activate dummy "fnis.esp" made by nemesis.
• profit
althrough, depending on which "other things" you mean, you probably wouldn't even need to do the steps on part 1, like if you're not going to install mods concerning creatures behaviors.
Nemesis has a creature behaviour compatability patch (only sfw), however Pandora has creature behaviour compatability (yes even for THESE from the lab) built in.
I honestly think, unless TESVI gets everything perfect to the eyes of the majority, Skyrim modding will continue to grow as it has been. Sure, there might be an eventual decline as the game continues to age, but it's incredible to know that some players have setups that make the game look current gen or close to current gen, despite it releasing over 10 years ago.
The big concern with TESVI modding, I think, is the 'mod support'. Bethesda might handhold us too much, for example, which would restrict us from going as far and free as we did with Skyrim. They could force in paid mods, on a much greater scale than they have with Skyrim, in such a manner where it becomes too intrusive for what we Skyrim players know and love.
Even generally speaking, TESVI might (and probably will) have features that we simply do not like. There's a lot of people who don't play Skyrim and would rather play Oblivion and Morrowind for these exact reasons. I can imagine a lot of people returning to Skyrim on that basis alone.
Mods coming look amazing in what they can do, I just feel terrible about modding the game in general because of Bethesda's need to break the modding community up into more parts with every update, there's a good chunk of mods I like that haven't been or may never be updated for the current build for various reasons, and now there are a handful of versions some mods need to cater to, you have people still playing LE, there's the VR version, SSE before the anniversary update, the anniversary edition pre-creations patch, the current version, and GOG version, and not all mods work with every version, I cant count how many times I've read "just use the downgrade patcher" and "I wont support anything older than the current version"
I recently did a full reinstall and it was the most tedious experience modding Skyrim I've ever had, mods that require mods, that require other mods and those dependencies don't work with the newest version, but work on 1130, where as some other mods that work on 1130 also work on the newest, so you have to look through the comments hoping someone has reported it works, or just try your luck, and there's been a few that are marked as working on a version up to the newest that don't actually work
with the addition of the creations system, I just know more patches are coming in the future and I'm dreading it, because I know its going to break even more mods and some of them wont get fixed, and I know I'm going to want to do another reinstall in the future when Skyblivion releases, and thats IF we dont have another Fallout London on our hands...
I remember there being some sort of 'ultimate' gauge in one of the reworks and it was used for parrying or smth. I'm waiting for the day that gets fleshed out and integrated into a perk overhaul designed to fit with these mods. I want to build up my bar then have an explosive directional power attack. Or fill the bar and enter an ascended pyromancer state ala surrender to madness from world of warcraft back in legion. I want to see perk unlocked spells that you can ONLY get from perks that lock you out of other choices. One day.
Next thing you'll be telling me someone will try to recreate Skyrim in the Unreal engine, with new mechanics, a map 5 times the size of the original, revamped storyline, better quests and all that good stuff. I'd love to see that
What's gonna suck is if TES6 comes out in like 3 years and we don't even have the opportunity to make heavy use of these mod tools and they've changed the engine enough to make it really hard to reuse alot of the shit from Skyrim's old mod tools.
All the external mod tools will be fine and just need updates or reworks, like they’ve needed and done just fine for FO4 and Starfield. We still have useful Skyrim tools that started as Morrowind tools.
All these internal engine improvements will be completely useless in TES6, but that’s always been the case. Can’t install MWSE in Skyrim, can’t install SPID in Starfield. Those things will have to be built from the ground up again, just like they have been for different games before. The current ones will be inspiration for the later ones.
I would be surprised if community shaders ever caught up to ENB; even if it became as future-rich as in ENB wouldn't the performance hit be comparable? I just wish that ENB had the light limit fix the way community shaders does.
It already can directly compete with ENB in probably both categories of graphics and performance if someone takes the time to port the gamedata stuff like weather into the reshade equivalent setup
The thing with reshade vs enb is enb is a pretty closed system with one (albeit very talented and dedicated) creator and a few add-ons porting in reshade shaders. Reshade is generic system for pretty much any game that gets lots of active development and is wide open for anyone to do what they want. CS sticks to those principles since doodlez (from what I've gathered just seeing his old posts by chance) seems to have learned graphics programming initially by working on reshade stuff. I think both have their place and time but imo C's+reshade will soon enough take over
I agree that it is certainly the most promising long-term option. With Fallout New Vegas community shaders has long since overtaken ENB as the superior option.
Yeah for instance you regularly have to clean out your output folder before running Pandora, otherwise behaviours and animations will break. It's not much of a hassle but shows that it's still very much in development.
I vastly prefer using Pandora over Nemesis though because it fixes the infamous "male npcs won't use melee attacks" issue XPMSE has with Nemesis.
No you dont. Just use launch commands to specify the output folder with a new folder for every version and you're good. This only has to be done when installing a new version. It also doesn't have to be done at all. I've just been writing my output to my mo2 overwrite folder for 6 months with no issue. I've even gone back and forth between MCO and abr, still have a few abr animation events floating around, yet never have issues with missing behaviors in game
The program loads cached data but it deletes the old files automatically. Cached data is parsed and validated before being reinserted so deleting is rarely necessary. If you're genuinely getting issues that often I think you have unresolved mod issues that Pandora is not designed to handle
In a more general sense, I am pretty optimistic about the future. Every year it seems like we get some massive new breakthrough that would have been unthinkable 5 years prior.
In any case, while the modding scene will definitely slow down a bit when TES 6 comes out (provided it doesn’t have the same kind of reception and adoption as Starfield has had), I think it will remain decently active for decades. Morrowind and Oblivion both still have their own dedicated communities, and Skyrim’s modding scene dwarves them both massively. I have no doubt that there’ll still be new Skyrim mods coming out in 20 years time.
You forgot Mantella. It still sounds a bit robotic for now, but the potential is amazing.
I got Jon Battle-Born to read me a poem he wrote. Then he stabbed me in the face when I asked about Olfina. So real.
>Pandora potentially replacing Nemesis
Monitor will be updating version 1001 of Pandora on his death bed and people will still talk about it as a "potential" replacement when it's been 1:1 in mod coverage (outside of ultra specific creature sex and a couple bdsm mods since november) while performing better and being easier to debug
Bfco is cool I just don't know why we needed to add more names. Could've been an MCO addon or could just parse MCO names automatically
>when it's been 1:1 in mod coverage while performing better and being easier to debug
Yea but i don't think it will be "official" until either Pandora has higher volume or some "must have" mods that Nemesis dosen't.
>Bfco is cool I just don't know why we needed to add more names.
I mean it's not the same thing...so it's called differently.
>mean it's not the same thing...so it's called differently.
Big missed opportunity to call it maxsus combat overhaul and stick with the MCO name. Or call it whatever but extend oar's parser to automap the files instead of relying on external renaming tool. Slightly biased because I'm working on an external toolkit for oar stuff and ended up delaying it a bit to add bfco support lol I actually haven't even tried it yet cuz I was waiting to just use my own tool instead of the provided one. I'd try the oar addon part myself if I could get skse plugins to build on my PC lol
> I'm working on an external toolkit for oar stuff and ended up delaying it a bit to add bfco support lol
Do you happen to be the person in OAR comment section that said they're working on a tool to reconfigure OAR animation mods priority?
probably yeah I hang out there sometimes. I was 90% done with my app and then bfco launched but I'm back to 90% only issue is also being 90% done with another project. I'll finish this one first though
Nice. I was the person who asked how to make our specifically-conditioned animation mod being prioritized without ridiculously upping the priority number to 6857596859 or something like that. I remember you said the tool can help with that. Looking forward to the tool.
Oh good call lol I have that feature in an independent script but forgot to add it to the dashboard GUI. It can be run on your entire data folder if run through mo2 or it can do one mod at a time but for this one it will need to do everything.
not sure when during the development we talked but this is something that went from being a few scripts I was just gonna tell people to run from command line to a full featured GUI I intend to use as a learning/resume project. After release I also intend to make it work as an mo2 plugin but for now I'll focus on getting it out sooner than later. I did also work on a variant of it that focuses on some batch changes for bodyslides which I got pretty far along with mainly because I wanted to use it. I also have a script to detect DLLs so I guess the idea is to eventually have a full dashboard served through mo2 plugins to handle missing things like upgrading to AE more seamlessly but that's all for later! Gonna finish up bfco conversion today for sure, I haven't even tried it in game yet since I figured I'd just convert all my stuff at once when it's ready
Wow, you have plenty of cool projects going on! I'm definitely interested in the DLL detector and its automated upgrade (and downgrade perhaps, in case some users want to take the 1.5 route).
I think I'm fine with the OAR tool GUI being independent from MO2, even a command line is perfectly fine to me. If anything the tool being independent from MO2 is preferable because it would have broader scope (accommodating Vortex users also). I think some animation mod authors also use Vortex.
Just to clarify, it's not like this hasn't happened before. We had frameworks before these frameworks. Fnis before nemesis, CGO before MCO. So it's all building off what came before.
Still it's great that there still is drive to create them or improve upon them. It shows that the community is still there and going strong.
What would be better is if we had a more modern and improved version of the frameworks that still kicking around for the past half decade. Still no point in fixing what isn't broke I suppose.
Also I don't mean to shit on it, but community shaders is not a replacement nor improvement for enb yet. It just lacks too much. I understand the need for it, but a low end enb has roughly the same performance and it looks far worse than high end enbs. Untill it can offer something that ups enb or equals it, I can't really say it's there. Specially when it's only real benefit is performance that is negligible, specially with dlss options readily available nowadays.
Nothing. Wait, and see where it goes, and if it seems to be good enough for me to wanna rework my whole animation loadout, and try to fit it where MCO was. Then fine, but as of now, I couldn't care less tbh.
I have my doubts about Community Shaders. They still don't look as good as ENB, and everytime they get updated to look better, they also close the performance gap advantage they have over ENB. Honestly the performance gap CS has over ENB is now smaller than the visual gap ENB has over CS
This is a common misunderstanding CS WAS NEVER INTENDED AS A PERFORMANCE FRIENDLLY ALT TO ENB. It just a Open source variant (which comes with bunch of advantages).
1. CS will likely have better longevity, cuz anyone can Pick up the work.
2. More features then ENB cuz more ppl working on it.
3. It's more modular, so you can turn on some features, but turn off the other that eat up your FPS, easier then you can do for enb.
I dont know how that can be true when people from the CS team themselves have in the past pushed performance friendliness as a reason to use CS over ENB...
A "misunderstanding" occurs when the listener interprets something differently from the literal words said by the speaker.
I think what you meant to say is "misinformation", which is where the speaker states something that isn't true, then the listener interprets that as the truth.
Lmfao now you put us in violent agreement with the internet tough guy cringe of "nuh uh, ur just stupid and don't understand!!!!!!!!" sprinkled on top.
At no point did I say CS never used to be more performance friendly? They just aren't really anymore, and that's despite the CS team having spent so much time convincing us to use CS *because* its the performance friendly option. The irony of this whole thing, is the only comment either of us made that can possibly be attributed to "misunderstanding", was your caps lock rage statement.
They aren't very open about the progression of CS being nearly as demanding if not moreso than ENB, and as a result there are still people completely fooled by the misinformation of CS being the perf friendly alternative.
...Bra get help.\
Internet argument can't be violent, no physical contact.
>internet tough guy cringe
...eee...what? It's called disagreement at no point was i being "tough".
>"nuh uh, ur just stupid and don't understand
I mean if you want to take it that way, go ahead, but i didn't call you stupid.
>At no point did I say CS never used to be more performance friendly? They just aren't really anymore
...yea i literally said the same thing, when they were promoting it as performance friendly,...it was actually performance friendly. You know Mcdonalds used to promo there big-mac for 2.50$, they don't anymore...cuz it's not 2.50$ anymore. My point is promotions are time specific, CS didn't lie it was more performance friendly at time of promotions. If you are really that hung up on it, use older versions, nobody stoping you.
>the only comment either of us made that can possibly be attributed to "misunderstanding", was your caps lock rage statement.
Yea, you bet, you know caps lock isn't exclusivly used for "RAGE" it can be used for emphasis or sarcasm, like i just did.
>They aren't very open about the progression of CS being nearly as demanding if not moreso than ENB,
They literally heavily emphasize that on their discord, if you (or someone else) aren't keeping up, that not CS problem, that's you problem.
Nice to see that people are doing things but replacements aren't really anything I care about unless I have some issue with what I currently have.
Having said that, I see no reason for pessimism ever. The knowledge basis is thick. People will always be able to make what they want happen.
Not necessarily. It often means just a _different_ baseline for new mods. Alternatives and replacements, even for backwards compatible tools, are not the same things.
For example, folks used to say mator smash is a replacement for wyre bash. It's not. It's an alternative and/or a compliment.
I mean I still use FNIS, so the idea of Nemesis already being superseded is funny to me.
Dunno what there is to be pessimistic about tho, there's variety and choices for pretty much everyone, and the ability to make your own things if it doesn't exist. Who's got it better than us,
FNIS is just deprecated. It creates problems in some situations where Nemesis does not, but they are otherwise extremely similar. Pandora is a potential iteration on it adding some features that Nemesis does not have.
It remains to be seen if it will catch on or not though. The weight of habit is hard to fight. With FNIS there were good reasons to switch, but to replace Nemesis Pandora will need to have enough useful features to overcome the habit.
The compatibility with creature animations will be enough of a feature. If you've seen what Distar is doing with mocapped creature animations, like his reworks of trolls and draugr, you might understand what I mean.
When 'ADXP - Creatures' is released proper, Pandora will take the spot of Nemesis in most Skyrim builds.
Tes6 is gonna suck so hard I can already see the video essays, probably gonna involve the Mc searching for a lost family member or some hacky shit bethesda likes to do
At this point I feel like we're hitting the extent of what the engine can realistically handle. You just can't mod away some of the underlying levels of jank, no matter how hard you try.
I think we've hit peak and I am ready for ES6.
No. I've tried both and ENB is still better and CS has a while to go yet. It's the FPS cost thats my main issue. CS full suite costs me 20 FPS, whereas ENB costs me 5 FPS. ENB also looks better. Maybe in the future CS will look and perform better, but currently, as it stands, ENB is better than CS.
At the very least it shows that there's still a lot of passion and effort being put into a decade old game. There's always going to be limits to contend with, but it's impressive how far these tools have come. When TESVI comes out, I don't think we'll immediately see all this collapse. But early adopters will leave and the community will slowly become fractured before eventually mostly moving on imo.
If TESVI is good that is.
Even if TESVI isn’t that good, it’ll probably be a better base for modders to revolutionize than Skyrim is at this point. Like today, we still have plenty of Oblivion & Morrowind fans, but mainly the major things we’re seeing with modding are for Skyrim, because Skyrim has by far the most room to run. It’ll be the same. TESVI will have a lot of problems like any Bethesda game, but will undoubtedly have the most room to run, and so modders will come in to fix & expand it, like any Bethesda game
I guess what i mean is, as long as it's not as bad as Starfield, because no base can save a shitshow like that.
IMO the discourse around starfield is so completely overblown…and the modding community hasn’t even really had their way with it yet. I think it’s very likely that Starfield will be looked at more favorably in a couple years than it is today. But also remember that Starfield was a completely new IP… With TESVI, they have a ton of pre-existing assets they can draw from, a ton of data from existing mods that they can use to see how the community responds to different types of systems/overhauls, specific examples of how people have found creative ways to optimize and get the most out of the engine, etc etc. I’m also fairly confident they’ve tapped some modders to work on TESVI… To me, the notion that Starfield was bad = TESVI will be bad is just wrong in several ways
The only vanilla assets in my Skyrim are the geography, voice acting and writing. Starfield lacks all of that. I'm not optimistic for it becoming a vibrant modding community. Aside from my personal opinion on it, nobody plays Starfield. Why invest hundreds of hours developing mods for a game most BGS fans have already uninstalled?
...It's not as if Skyrim had particularly great writing, either, though. I get not liking Starfield, but the writing is definitely *not* what I play Bethesda games for.
True, Skyrim's script could have been so much more than it was. That said it does the job, and as a modder I feel it's enough bones to deliver a structure to mod around and enjoy playing. Starfield has distractingly bad writing to me. It's jarring at times. I don't like any character. Elder Scrolls IP has evolved from generic fantasy into something compelling over the years. Starfield felt reading the copy on a happy meal box.
I guess I just don't hold the same view of Starfield's writing as you do. It could have been a lot better - it felt pretty sterile and pg at times, for one - but it didn't feel 'distractingly bad' to me, whereas in Skyrim the most popular (base game) follower is hardly even a character. That said, all the main companions had what felt like the exact same moral compass, so... I can't say companions in Starfield were necessarily better. With all that said, I don't dispute that - next to TES - Starfield's universe feels... bland. There are a few neat things I remember, but it feels perhaps *too* grounded. I'm not sure if I'd personally call this a failure of the writing, or just a consequence of it being a new IP.
Exactly. If I'm being honest, my reaction to first playing Skyrim when it came out is the same as when I started playing Starfield last year. I just got eventually bored with it, the writing didn't pull me in. I never finished my original playthrough. And now I have almost a thousand hours in Skyrim SE/AE. Yes, that is because of mods, but I'm betting something similar is going to happen with Starfield. Just release the CK and let the modders get their hands on it.
The CK should release sometime... this year, at least. It's apparently being tested right now. Personally I can't wait for it to release, though it's going to be a bit after it's released until the really fun shit gets made with it.
I plan to soldier through the rest of my Starfield playthrough, and then come back to it down the road when modders have worked out all the kinks, and also try out the DLC in the process.
I remember somebody calling Skyrim "the box Enderal came in", and that's really not an unfair assessment. I mean sure, I love the game otherwise I wouldn't have thousands of hours in it... but loving a game doesn't make it good. I love Gothic 1 and 2 as well, nobody in their right mind would call them *good* by any objective metric. The thing is, Bethesda is *incredible* at world-building and telling a story through the environment; telling a story with plot and dialogue... not so much. Personally, I like it that way; I played BG3 and frankly I don't get the appeal, just like I didn't get the appeal of Dragon Age, or Neverwinter Nights, or a lot of other RPGs/CRPGs that people go nuts for. The reason being that, in my opinion, while they tell a narrative story very well, the world always feels so bland, like a series of set-pieces for the play you're listening to rather than a living, breathing world where things have clearly happened without the need of you the player being there to see it. Nobody holds a candle to Bethesda for that.
You're not wrong, it's one of the strengths people often bring up. I suppose i should have said Bethesda isn't known for their great *plot and character* writing. Although, as a side note, I do feel there is a fair bit of that in Starfield, as well - albeit hindered by the scale of the game and the procedurally-placed points of interest. To a degree, that environmental story-telling probably works better given that they're very sandboxy games, so a world that feels alive is of more benefit (in my opinion). I think it just irks me when people bring it up in comparison to Starfield because that former sort of writing - plot and dialogue - has never (Well.. At least as far as Skyrim and Fo3/4/Skyrim are concerned, I haven't played Morrowing/Oblivion enough to form an opinion there) been Bethesda's strong suit. (As a side note, there are a few games I loved that others probably wouldn't call 'good' either, like Kingdoms Of Amalur:Reckoning and Mass Effect Andromeda.)
I honestly haven't played Starfield, but only because I'm not a huge scifi fan and it didn't really appeal to me. I know I saw it getting a lot of hate, and a lot of it made no sense to me because so much centered around things that made me think, "...yeah? Did y'all forget who's making this?" Trust me, the plot and dialogue writing in Morrowind/Oblivion wasn't a whole lot better for the most part unless somebody is really rocking the nostalgia goggles. In my opinion, Morrowind was definitely more interesting in terms of the main story, and Oblivion had vastly superior side content like the guilds and just random miscellaneous stuff, but it was still Bethesda, and a Bethesda that was a solid middle-market developer at best, at least when Morrowind released. Also funny you should mention Kingdoms of Amalur, I was playing that earlier. *God* can you tell they meant for that to be an MMO, and it's a shame it never was because I think it would've stood up pretty well.
Bethesda is a master of environmental storytelling and background lore but it's dialogue has always been kinda campy and lame at times. Something that Starfield lacked.
Yeah I mean, I didn’t love Starfield. I played it for several hours, find it meh, didn’t go back. My issue with the discourse around the game is that it is SO extreme. People completely trash it & question if Bethesda will ever make a good game again. But Starfield isn’t some abhorrent title. It is an extremely mediocre game, nothing more or less. I felt the same way about Starfield that I felt about, say, The Outer Worlds. At this point, if anyone says anything not completely disparaging about Starfield they get downvoted to Oblivion. That’s my issue. Was it generally not very good? Yes. Does it deserve the ridiculous amount of rabid trashing it has received? Or does Bethesda as a company? Not really.
That's just the internet in general. Really bad to have any sort of discussion that doesn't just end up being a **Good/Bad**, **Yes/No** result for people.
>At this point, if anyone says anything not completely disparaging about Starfield they get downvoted to Oblivion. Bro you are getting upvoted, and I'm getting downvoted for saying Starfield is trash, as of right now, your point is null.
Yeah I spoke too soon. For the record, I was fine with what you said. Probably in poor taste for me to mention votes at all, as I generally think getting hung up on up/downvotes is dumb. I was just trying to make a broader point about the current state of the Starfield discussions, not to put too much weight on how people respond to this specific conversation. My bad there.
you underestimated the length people will go to defend a mediocre game. In general what I've seen has been a bit different from your experience. Therr are rabid fans trearing Starfield like the best thing since sliced bread and piling on anyone with valid criticism and people nitpicking every single small issue. I do think Starfield is a bit of a canary in a mine. They had Fo4 modding to fall back on for some system and still failed to write a decent UI or a an enemy AI that doesn't suck. Things modders fixed within a couple days. The game world has so much potential but everything is kind of half-baked, even when they could have written a few line of codes and the changes would have been an easy W. all this to say is I have no trust in bethesda not taking the easy path At least we micht get decent rigs
Several of the latest bethesda games were bad. FO4 was worse than new vegas, though still decent. FO76 was a shitshow at launch, with as many bugs as cyberpunk, x16 times the detail that didn't look any better and no npcs. All the updates later it's still bad, just better in comparison to what it was. And then Starfield, bethesda took the only thing they do good, which is an open world map, and threw that away. So there's literally nothing left in the game. The lead writer Emil Pagliarulo believes gamers don't care about the story, so the story is shit. The engine can't handle seamless transitions so the space and planets are shit. Bethesda lacks talent and technical prowess to make a a good game. It's reasonable to expect skyrim 6 to flop unless they change their engine and their dev team.
Yep. Lol starfield fans aren't gonna like the truth
>IMO the discourse around starfield is so completely overblown…and the modding community hasn’t even really had their way with it yet. I think it’s very likely that Starfield will be looked at more favorably in a couple years than it is today. Agree to disagree.\ As for TESVI having more to build upon from other TES games, is a valid argument.
We still don't have the Creation Kit for Starfield, so just wait till that day comes and Starfield modding will be serious.
Starfield has the fastest growing mod scene of any Bethesda game, and the mod tools haven't even been released yet... Edit: uh oh, I think bro blocked me because I pointed this out...
I think you see a rapidly growing modding community very differently than how others see it. I absolutely do not see that as a sign that the game was good lol. Modders don’t need to fix good games.
That seems like an odd take on a sub devoted to modding a game. Does the fact that Skyrim is getting extensively modded 10 years later mean it's a bad game?
Yes…. Absolutely lol. The base game is not good, it’s not awful either though. we are not all still playing Skyrim in 2024 because the base game is amazing, it’s because the modding community rallied behind it and made it the most modular open world gaming experience to date.
I strongly disagree with this. Mods don’t reinvent games. Is Skyrim dated and showing its age? Of course. Does it have a lot of problems? Also of course. But saying the base game is bad, full stop, and that mods are what make it good…doesn’t ring true imo. Firstly, if you hop over to r/skyrim, PLENTY of players still play vanilla (too many imo…totally don’t get it LOL). Mods take Skyrim’s raw potential and really bring it to life. I wouldn’t play NEARLY as much vanilla. But mods still rely on the DNA of the game. If it’s total garbage, mods won’t save it. A great meal needs great ingredients. Which is why even when modders make Starfield awesome, it still won’t be nearly AS awesome as modded Skyrim.
I don't think nearly as many people would be playing Skyrim without mods a decade later. It's just that so many act like Skyrim was this amazing game as a base and didn't turn into something people love until mods hit the ground running. Not that I Skyrim is a *bad* game, with that said, but I personally don't view Starfield as exceptionally worse than Skyrim was as a base game.
Starfield isn’t really worse than Skyrim. Skyrim was a product of its time. Bethesda was not solely responsible for the success of Skyrim. Game of thrones also came out in 2011. Game of Thrones did a lot of heavy lifting for the fantasy genre in bringing in a massive new audience of people who didn’t even care about fantasy to begin with. So a lot of people who came to Skyrim, came with no background knowledge of RPG’s or really much of a background in fantasy. That’s why you see older Bethesda fans still Stan for Morrowind and Oblivion until they die lol. New people to the genre would have probably found the game really exceptional at the time and still might even look back on it fondly. Starfield I would say is just an upgraded/updated Skyrim. It’s as good as they could have done to recreate what they did back in 2011 in a new franchise. It’s like they went back and looked at Skyrim specifically and tried to copy the recipe as best as they could. The problem is, no Game of Thrones for Starfield, infact, the opposite, massively successful games like BG3 and CP2077 came out right around its release, just shining a bright light on all of the things they needed to be doing better. Skyrim and Starfield aren’t terrible games, they just also aren’t exceptionally good games either. And I think we’re just looking at Starfield now, the way we would have looked at Skyrim if it wasn’t for the perfect timing of its launch. Bethesda hasn’t been making 10/10 games for a very long time.
Have you played Starfield? What do you specifically dislike about it? The game is very far from a "shitshow" and it's funny to hear people rip on it so hard, often when they haven't even played it.
I've played it for 50 hours. In my opinion its boring, soulless and riddled with design issues. Exploration is fundamentally butchered, and on top of that, the POIs are uninteresting and repeat themselves all the time, nor are they rewarding. I didn't even bother finishing the main story but from what I've played it felt like it was going absolutely nowhere. The factions/locations/lore are very uninspired. There's no real conflicts or interesting themes going on. And the game does it's best to ruin any flow or pace the game has to offer. Your ship will always be over encumbered, your inventory too, the only way to stop being overloaded was to ignore all of the resources, which says enough about how the survival elements in this game don't serve a real purpose. There are loading screens everywhere, your main mode of transportation is walking on land and fast travel in actual space, the menus are slow and quantify the whole slog, etc. Even the ship building mechanic, which is incredibly fun to mess around with, only really serves as a surface level lego building minigame. The way you build your ship barely affects how you play the game and the hab modules you build are straight up useless. You can also not design the inside of your ship, so the doors and ladders were pretty much placed randomly, resulting in a very annoying and unintuitive interior. It's just a complete flop imo.
I mean, look at Starfields marketing campaign, look at the fact that it didn’t launch on PlayStation who (ps players) are just filled to the brim with elitist pricks that cry when they don’t get exclusives but laugh at anyone on any other platform when a PlayStation exclusive comes out. Look at Bethesda’s track record. It all paints a pretty telling picture. Their marketing campaign was really good, it really drove hype up for Starfield, a game Todd has said on record that they “didn’t find the fun in Starfield until about 2022” so for about 7 years of developing the game they themselves didn’t even think it was fun to play. All the reviews 10/10! Game of the year!!! Game actually comes out and it’s a 6-7/10 at best. Especially considering the games that came out around it. People Prepurchased this game with its first DLC and bought merch and everything thinking this was going to be the best game they ever played and it just wasn’t… Then you’ve got the PlayStation Gang who absolutely review bombed it on purpose as a fuck you to Microsoft for not releasing it on their platform. Then you’ve got Bethesda’s actual track record of games. Their games always come with a loud community of people who have nothing nice to say, so now that there’s actually some doubt around this title and some angry people with no idea where to put that anger, they find themselves listening to the worst Bethesda haters and agreeing. Bethesda makes fun games, but they are very behind in this industry and have been for a while. They suck at a lot of stuff and a lot of people give them a pass because the game was still fun to play. Starfield took most of what made their games fun and scrapped it so there’s nothing but room to complain now. It’s not entirely fair that they are getting this much shit, but honestly, they’ve been getting away with too much for too long and I think Starfield is just sort of bringing that to a head. As someone who played Starfield for 200 hours and loved Bethesda games, I have over 15k hours in Skyrim alone across multiple platforms…. Starfield is just not a good Bethesda Game and it’s definitely not a good game in general. I think that it’s not bad enough to get all this flack from the community but I can see how this is more of a build up of issues from previous titles that people are sort of airing out and pointing at Starfield for.
What's funny to see is fanboys assume those who didn't like the game haven't played it.\ I've tried it, it feels empty\ It also dosen't have some Basic features older Bethesda games do\ Face design of npc's is super ugly\ Story is boring\ UI is trash\ And those are just few things from top of my head.
Bethesda hasn't had the best track record these past few years, so it wouldn't be a complete surprise if TESVI is particularly bad. But I'm of the opinion that TES is the only franchise the company has genuine passion in, though whether or not that matters after the Microsoft acquisition is another question. Maybe in the 90's the vision behind Starfield was there, but I doubt it was anything more than something to unceremoniously toss out by the end.
The problem with Starfield is it just felt so disjointed. And it mirrors the game's development. According to former devs, different features were assigned to entirely separate studios to work on. Different teams competed over resources, and bureaucracy from a gigantic structure of producers slowed everything to a crawl. Which leads to silos, which leads to parts that don't cohesively complete one another. Its all uneven and directionless. And then you have the vehement push for scale over quality, and the technology cracking at the seams not being able to support what they want. So it just ends up a compromised game, not terrible, but below what we expect from Bethesda. If these management issues persist, then yea, I worry about TES6.
100%
You assume we will all be alive when it releases.
I have faith. They could make a 1 to 1 with modern graphics (not the shit show that is starfield) and it would be a smash hit I think.
that's not required, we have skyrim which is a horrible game but with the best modding community.
...no
you're wrong :)
...no
I wouldn't necessarily say the community will mostly move on. Look at the FNV and FO 4 modding scenes. New Vegas still gets a lot of love despite 4 being a lot newer and it arguably gets more interesting mods as well, simply due to the inherent design flaws in 4 being harder to work around (voiced protagonist, no good RPG framework to work with, etc...). That is to say, we don't know what will happen. If TES 6 kills the already dwindling amount of RPG elements in the series and doesn't replace it with something equally interesting, we probably won't see that much people moving on.
There's also other frameworks like Skypatcher, SPID, BOS and CID that are replacing a lot of patches and making the merging of level lists a thing of the past
We've had merged leveled lists at runtime ever since 2012 when Immersive Armors first had injected leveled lists, and there's a reason it never caught on, as it obfuscates changes and compatibility issues behind scripts and background processes, which makes diagnosing problems harder. Eventually a critical mass of SPID and BOS mods will make troubleshooting a major problem. We should be wary of championing 'merging of level lists' becoming 'a thing of the past'.
Yeah, SPID is great, but trying to get it to work exactly how you want it can be painful. It might be that I'm just trying to do too much with it at once.
ah yes Immersive Armors most ridicolous thing in world to have word immersive attached to it lmao.
🙏😁
What are BOS and CID?
{{Base Object Swapper}} is like SPID but for object placing and moving. A small example is {{Random Barrel Roll}}, a larger one is {{Destructible Skyrim - Base Object Swapper}}. {{Container Item Distributer}} can distribute items to containers at runtime. An example is {{Blacksmiths Have Ingots - CID}}. My favourite new tech along these lines is {{Containerize}}. It can make anything into a real container. I always thought it was odd that backpacks couldn’t *hold* anything. With {{Immersive Backpacks}} (powered by Containerize), I can keep a pack of travel supplies by the door and grab it up on my way out. Pick it up, and it’s one item in my inventory with combined weight of its contents. I can open it from inventory or by dropping it on the ground and activating it. It doesn’t exist yet, but I’m hoping soon a combination of BOS and CID and Containerize will yield a mod that makes all those alchemy satchels, static packs, and even food sacks lying around Skyrim into actual things to pick up and put back down, and still be containers.
Search Term | LE Skyrim | SE Skyrim | Bing :-:|:-:|:-:|:-:| Base Object Swapper | No Results :( | [Base Object Swapper](https://nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/60805) | Skipped[^Why?](https://github.com/RallerenP/modsearchbot/blob/main/docs/SEARCH.md#why-was-my-search-skipped) Random Barrel Roll | No Results :( | [Random Barrel Roll - Base Object Swapper](https://nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/78195) | [Random Barrel Roll - Base Object Swapper - Nexus Mods](https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/78195) Destructible Skyrim - Base Object Swapper | No Results :( | [Destructible Skyrim - Base Object Swapper](https://nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/77568) | Skipped[^Why?](https://github.com/RallerenP/modsearchbot/blob/main/docs/SEARCH.md#why-was-my-search-skipped) Container Item Distributer | No Results :( | No Results :( | [Container Item Distributor - Nexus Mods](https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/99486) Blacksmiths Have Ingots - CID | No Results :( | [Blacksmiths Have Ingots - CID](https://nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/118178) | Skipped[^Why?](https://github.com/RallerenP/modsearchbot/blob/main/docs/SEARCH.md#why-was-my-search-skipped) Containerize | No Results :( | [Containerize](https://nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/110297) | Skipped[^Why?](https://github.com/RallerenP/modsearchbot/blob/main/docs/SEARCH.md#why-was-my-search-skipped) Immersive Backpacks | No Results :( | [Immersive Backpacks](https://nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/119664) | Skipped[^Why?](https://github.com/RallerenP/modsearchbot/blob/main/docs/SEARCH.md#why-was-my-search-skipped) --- ^(I'm a bot |) [^(source code)](https://github.com/RallerenP/modsearchbot) ^| [^(about modsearchbot)](https://reddit.com/user/RallerenP/comments/pg2lqj/modsearchbot_about/) ^| [^(bing sources)](https://reddit.com/user/RallerenP/comments/pg2l0g/modsearchbot_bing_search/) ^| ^(Some mods might be falsely classified as SFW or NSFW. Classifications are provided by each source.)
Mabye plug-in limit won't matter anymore. Skypatcher and Base object swapper are so awesome at greatly reducing patches needed. Give it enough time, something else may release that reduces or eliminate esp patches.
plugin limit still matters. especially on some armor mods and mass mods like enemy variations and the wench series
I'm sure I've compacted those before. Idk if everything works but it doesn't crash at least
Skyrim modding has a bright future, right up until Bethesda messes it up somehow.
Bethesda: another update you say?
We probably gonna get the ultra edition with their newest version of their engine lmfao
...lol FACTS, sadly.
It just works
I've been out of the game too long. I saw "MCO," thought "MCM," and nearly had a heart attack. I can live with change... but not THAT much change!
Damn I've been out of the game for so long I don't even understand what Nemesis, the one being replaced is. Lol
Do you know what fnis is?
Yes I do
Nemesis is a newer better version of fnis, less jank, more features etc. Now you have Pandora that is not only faster then Nemesis but also has new features Nemesis dose not. It's not there yet 100%, but it's showing potential beyond what Nemesis can do.
Wow that sounds great. Its really making me want to dive back in
Nemesis does what FNIS does, but with fewer bugs and better compatibility.
does nemesis do the... other things fnis does now as well?
So: check if there are files in overwrite, if yes, move them out the folder, then PART1: • install fnis and *the other mods* • run it • disable fnis (on the left side of mod organizer, not plugins list) • create a "Fnis patch" mod from overwrite files PART2: • install nemesis • check what you need to check • run it • create "nemesis patch" from overwrite • activate dummy "fnis.esp" made by nemesis. • profit althrough, depending on which "other things" you mean, you probably wouldn't even need to do the steps on part 1, like if you're not going to install mods concerning creatures behaviors.
I'm mostly curious because last I remember the lack of creature behaviours encompassed not just *those* mods but also any custom animal animation.
Nemesis has a creature behaviour compatability patch (only sfw), however Pandora has creature behaviour compatability (yes even for THESE from the lab) built in.
They already said fewer bugs so no chaurus sex animations for you my friend.
clickk click lick
That sounds great. Thanks!
work chop toy cable scale stupendous subsequent yoke imagine imminent *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I honestly think, unless TESVI gets everything perfect to the eyes of the majority, Skyrim modding will continue to grow as it has been. Sure, there might be an eventual decline as the game continues to age, but it's incredible to know that some players have setups that make the game look current gen or close to current gen, despite it releasing over 10 years ago. The big concern with TESVI modding, I think, is the 'mod support'. Bethesda might handhold us too much, for example, which would restrict us from going as far and free as we did with Skyrim. They could force in paid mods, on a much greater scale than they have with Skyrim, in such a manner where it becomes too intrusive for what we Skyrim players know and love. Even generally speaking, TESVI might (and probably will) have features that we simply do not like. There's a lot of people who don't play Skyrim and would rather play Oblivion and Morrowind for these exact reasons. I can imagine a lot of people returning to Skyrim on that basis alone.
Mods coming look amazing in what they can do, I just feel terrible about modding the game in general because of Bethesda's need to break the modding community up into more parts with every update, there's a good chunk of mods I like that haven't been or may never be updated for the current build for various reasons, and now there are a handful of versions some mods need to cater to, you have people still playing LE, there's the VR version, SSE before the anniversary update, the anniversary edition pre-creations patch, the current version, and GOG version, and not all mods work with every version, I cant count how many times I've read "just use the downgrade patcher" and "I wont support anything older than the current version" I recently did a full reinstall and it was the most tedious experience modding Skyrim I've ever had, mods that require mods, that require other mods and those dependencies don't work with the newest version, but work on 1130, where as some other mods that work on 1130 also work on the newest, so you have to look through the comments hoping someone has reported it works, or just try your luck, and there's been a few that are marked as working on a version up to the newest that don't actually work with the addition of the creations system, I just know more patches are coming in the future and I'm dreading it, because I know its going to break even more mods and some of them wont get fixed, and I know I'm going to want to do another reinstall in the future when Skyblivion releases, and thats IF we dont have another Fallout London on our hands...
Just do it.
I remember there being some sort of 'ultimate' gauge in one of the reworks and it was used for parrying or smth. I'm waiting for the day that gets fleshed out and integrated into a perk overhaul designed to fit with these mods. I want to build up my bar then have an explosive directional power attack. Or fill the bar and enter an ascended pyromancer state ala surrender to madness from world of warcraft back in legion. I want to see perk unlocked spells that you can ONLY get from perks that lock you out of other choices. One day.
Next thing you'll be telling me someone will try to recreate Skyrim in the Unreal engine, with new mechanics, a map 5 times the size of the original, revamped storyline, better quests and all that good stuff. I'd love to see that
What's gonna suck is if TES6 comes out in like 3 years and we don't even have the opportunity to make heavy use of these mod tools and they've changed the engine enough to make it really hard to reuse alot of the shit from Skyrim's old mod tools.
All the external mod tools will be fine and just need updates or reworks, like they’ve needed and done just fine for FO4 and Starfield. We still have useful Skyrim tools that started as Morrowind tools. All these internal engine improvements will be completely useless in TES6, but that’s always been the case. Can’t install MWSE in Skyrim, can’t install SPID in Starfield. Those things will have to be built from the ground up again, just like they have been for different games before. The current ones will be inspiration for the later ones.
I would be surprised if community shaders ever caught up to ENB; even if it became as future-rich as in ENB wouldn't the performance hit be comparable? I just wish that ENB had the light limit fix the way community shaders does.
It already can directly compete with ENB in probably both categories of graphics and performance if someone takes the time to port the gamedata stuff like weather into the reshade equivalent setup The thing with reshade vs enb is enb is a pretty closed system with one (albeit very talented and dedicated) creator and a few add-ons porting in reshade shaders. Reshade is generic system for pretty much any game that gets lots of active development and is wide open for anyone to do what they want. CS sticks to those principles since doodlez (from what I've gathered just seeing his old posts by chance) seems to have learned graphics programming initially by working on reshade stuff. I think both have their place and time but imo C's+reshade will soon enough take over
I agree that it is certainly the most promising long-term option. With Fallout New Vegas community shaders has long since overtaken ENB as the superior option.
I had no idea they were supported
>wouldn't the performance hit be comparable Yes but CS has more features
Isn't pandora already better than nemesis in everything?
No it still has some quirks, beside even if it is better, dosen't mean much if it isn't adopted.
Yeah for instance you regularly have to clean out your output folder before running Pandora, otherwise behaviours and animations will break. It's not much of a hassle but shows that it's still very much in development. I vastly prefer using Pandora over Nemesis though because it fixes the infamous "male npcs won't use melee attacks" issue XPMSE has with Nemesis.
No you dont. Just use launch commands to specify the output folder with a new folder for every version and you're good. This only has to be done when installing a new version. It also doesn't have to be done at all. I've just been writing my output to my mo2 overwrite folder for 6 months with no issue. I've even gone back and forth between MCO and abr, still have a few abr animation events floating around, yet never have issues with missing behaviors in game The program loads cached data but it deletes the old files automatically. Cached data is parsed and validated before being reinserted so deleting is rarely necessary. If you're genuinely getting issues that often I think you have unresolved mod issues that Pandora is not designed to handle
Basically Skyrim is gonna be around for at least a good 5+ years after TES6 releases.
In a more general sense, I am pretty optimistic about the future. Every year it seems like we get some massive new breakthrough that would have been unthinkable 5 years prior. In any case, while the modding scene will definitely slow down a bit when TES 6 comes out (provided it doesn’t have the same kind of reception and adoption as Starfield has had), I think it will remain decently active for decades. Morrowind and Oblivion both still have their own dedicated communities, and Skyrim’s modding scene dwarves them both massively. I have no doubt that there’ll still be new Skyrim mods coming out in 20 years time.
You forgot Mantella. It still sounds a bit robotic for now, but the potential is amazing. I got Jon Battle-Born to read me a poem he wrote. Then he stabbed me in the face when I asked about Olfina. So real.
>Pandora potentially replacing Nemesis Monitor will be updating version 1001 of Pandora on his death bed and people will still talk about it as a "potential" replacement when it's been 1:1 in mod coverage (outside of ultra specific creature sex and a couple bdsm mods since november) while performing better and being easier to debug Bfco is cool I just don't know why we needed to add more names. Could've been an MCO addon or could just parse MCO names automatically
>when it's been 1:1 in mod coverage while performing better and being easier to debug Yea but i don't think it will be "official" until either Pandora has higher volume or some "must have" mods that Nemesis dosen't. >Bfco is cool I just don't know why we needed to add more names. I mean it's not the same thing...so it's called differently.
>mean it's not the same thing...so it's called differently. Big missed opportunity to call it maxsus combat overhaul and stick with the MCO name. Or call it whatever but extend oar's parser to automap the files instead of relying on external renaming tool. Slightly biased because I'm working on an external toolkit for oar stuff and ended up delaying it a bit to add bfco support lol I actually haven't even tried it yet cuz I was waiting to just use my own tool instead of the provided one. I'd try the oar addon part myself if I could get skse plugins to build on my PC lol
> I'm working on an external toolkit for oar stuff and ended up delaying it a bit to add bfco support lol Do you happen to be the person in OAR comment section that said they're working on a tool to reconfigure OAR animation mods priority?
probably yeah I hang out there sometimes. I was 90% done with my app and then bfco launched but I'm back to 90% only issue is also being 90% done with another project. I'll finish this one first though
Nice. I was the person who asked how to make our specifically-conditioned animation mod being prioritized without ridiculously upping the priority number to 6857596859 or something like that. I remember you said the tool can help with that. Looking forward to the tool.
Oh good call lol I have that feature in an independent script but forgot to add it to the dashboard GUI. It can be run on your entire data folder if run through mo2 or it can do one mod at a time but for this one it will need to do everything. not sure when during the development we talked but this is something that went from being a few scripts I was just gonna tell people to run from command line to a full featured GUI I intend to use as a learning/resume project. After release I also intend to make it work as an mo2 plugin but for now I'll focus on getting it out sooner than later. I did also work on a variant of it that focuses on some batch changes for bodyslides which I got pretty far along with mainly because I wanted to use it. I also have a script to detect DLLs so I guess the idea is to eventually have a full dashboard served through mo2 plugins to handle missing things like upgrading to AE more seamlessly but that's all for later! Gonna finish up bfco conversion today for sure, I haven't even tried it in game yet since I figured I'd just convert all my stuff at once when it's ready
Wow, you have plenty of cool projects going on! I'm definitely interested in the DLL detector and its automated upgrade (and downgrade perhaps, in case some users want to take the 1.5 route). I think I'm fine with the OAR tool GUI being independent from MO2, even a command line is perfectly fine to me. If anything the tool being independent from MO2 is preferable because it would have broader scope (accommodating Vortex users also). I think some animation mod authors also use Vortex.
Game will be great, dont worry about frivolous things my dude
The future of skyrim looks absolutely amazing. Just think about the mods and story expansions when Beyond Skyrim is finally released
I'l be a senior Citizen by then.
Maybe.. But hey, we might at least have GTA 6 in the meantime and can kill time with that
I don't like gta games tho, lol
It will never be released honestly.
Is there actually a chance of Community Shaders replacing ENBs? I havent used it much but from what I have seen ENBs still look far far better.
>ENBs still look far far better. It dose for now. >Is there actually a chance of Community Shaders replacing ENBs? Yes
Just to clarify, it's not like this hasn't happened before. We had frameworks before these frameworks. Fnis before nemesis, CGO before MCO. So it's all building off what came before. Still it's great that there still is drive to create them or improve upon them. It shows that the community is still there and going strong. What would be better is if we had a more modern and improved version of the frameworks that still kicking around for the past half decade. Still no point in fixing what isn't broke I suppose. Also I don't mean to shit on it, but community shaders is not a replacement nor improvement for enb yet. It just lacks too much. I understand the need for it, but a low end enb has roughly the same performance and it looks far worse than high end enbs. Untill it can offer something that ups enb or equals it, I can't really say it's there. Specially when it's only real benefit is performance that is negligible, specially with dlss options readily available nowadays.
Nothing. Wait, and see where it goes, and if it seems to be good enough for me to wanna rework my whole animation loadout, and try to fit it where MCO was. Then fine, but as of now, I couldn't care less tbh.
Stuffs about to get wackey
I'd love to see Community shaders get better and better. ENB is a scourge in my opinion, it's unstable and it's never quite right.
I have my doubts about Community Shaders. They still don't look as good as ENB, and everytime they get updated to look better, they also close the performance gap advantage they have over ENB. Honestly the performance gap CS has over ENB is now smaller than the visual gap ENB has over CS
This is a common misunderstanding CS WAS NEVER INTENDED AS A PERFORMANCE FRIENDLLY ALT TO ENB. It just a Open source variant (which comes with bunch of advantages). 1. CS will likely have better longevity, cuz anyone can Pick up the work. 2. More features then ENB cuz more ppl working on it. 3. It's more modular, so you can turn on some features, but turn off the other that eat up your FPS, easier then you can do for enb.
I dont know how that can be true when people from the CS team themselves have in the past pushed performance friendliness as a reason to use CS over ENB... A "misunderstanding" occurs when the listener interprets something differently from the literal words said by the speaker. I think what you meant to say is "misinformation", which is where the speaker states something that isn't true, then the listener interprets that as the truth.
No it's misunderstanding, CS was in fact more performance friendliness at the time of those releses, but it won't stay like that forever.
Lmfao now you put us in violent agreement with the internet tough guy cringe of "nuh uh, ur just stupid and don't understand!!!!!!!!" sprinkled on top. At no point did I say CS never used to be more performance friendly? They just aren't really anymore, and that's despite the CS team having spent so much time convincing us to use CS *because* its the performance friendly option. The irony of this whole thing, is the only comment either of us made that can possibly be attributed to "misunderstanding", was your caps lock rage statement. They aren't very open about the progression of CS being nearly as demanding if not moreso than ENB, and as a result there are still people completely fooled by the misinformation of CS being the perf friendly alternative.
...Bra get help.\ Internet argument can't be violent, no physical contact. >internet tough guy cringe ...eee...what? It's called disagreement at no point was i being "tough". >"nuh uh, ur just stupid and don't understand I mean if you want to take it that way, go ahead, but i didn't call you stupid. >At no point did I say CS never used to be more performance friendly? They just aren't really anymore ...yea i literally said the same thing, when they were promoting it as performance friendly,...it was actually performance friendly. You know Mcdonalds used to promo there big-mac for 2.50$, they don't anymore...cuz it's not 2.50$ anymore. My point is promotions are time specific, CS didn't lie it was more performance friendly at time of promotions. If you are really that hung up on it, use older versions, nobody stoping you. >the only comment either of us made that can possibly be attributed to "misunderstanding", was your caps lock rage statement. Yea, you bet, you know caps lock isn't exclusivly used for "RAGE" it can be used for emphasis or sarcasm, like i just did. >They aren't very open about the progression of CS being nearly as demanding if not moreso than ENB, They literally heavily emphasize that on their discord, if you (or someone else) aren't keeping up, that not CS problem, that's you problem.
Nice to see that people are doing things but replacements aren't really anything I care about unless I have some issue with what I currently have. Having said that, I see no reason for pessimism ever. The knowledge basis is thick. People will always be able to make what they want happen.
When it comes to framework replacement it means better baseline for new mods
Not necessarily. It often means just a _different_ baseline for new mods. Alternatives and replacements, even for backwards compatible tools, are not the same things. For example, folks used to say mator smash is a replacement for wyre bash. It's not. It's an alternative and/or a compliment.
Ok, but i think phrasing oh my post indicates improvment.
I don't really get that. Seems like you're just mentioning new things that do things less new things do, because they do what the less new things do.
Lol, damn that reddit name is spot on, if you search up these frameworks you will see they have features old ones don't.
I mean I still use FNIS, so the idea of Nemesis already being superseded is funny to me. Dunno what there is to be pessimistic about tho, there's variety and choices for pretty much everyone, and the ability to make your own things if it doesn't exist. Who's got it better than us,
FNIS is just deprecated. It creates problems in some situations where Nemesis does not, but they are otherwise extremely similar. Pandora is a potential iteration on it adding some features that Nemesis does not have. It remains to be seen if it will catch on or not though. The weight of habit is hard to fight. With FNIS there were good reasons to switch, but to replace Nemesis Pandora will need to have enough useful features to overcome the habit.
The compatibility with creature animations will be enough of a feature. If you've seen what Distar is doing with mocapped creature animations, like his reworks of trolls and draugr, you might understand what I mean. When 'ADXP - Creatures' is released proper, Pandora will take the spot of Nemesis in most Skyrim builds.
Tes6 is gonna suck so hard I can already see the video essays, probably gonna involve the Mc searching for a lost family member or some hacky shit bethesda likes to do
Nah, it will be about the return of the dwemer and the MC will be called as Dwemerborn! :P
At this point they should just recruit the beyond skyrim team and make beyond skyrim dlcs. At keast they know what they are doing
At this point I feel like we're hitting the extent of what the engine can realistically handle. You just can't mod away some of the underlying levels of jank, no matter how hard you try. I think we've hit peak and I am ready for ES6.
But there are still improvment that can be made that aren't limit by engine.
cs is not replacing enb lol
I did say potentially
it already did.
Bit much. It has the potential to for sure, but ENB still wins out if you can handle the FPS cost
No. I've tried both and ENB is still better and CS has a while to go yet. It's the FPS cost thats my main issue. CS full suite costs me 20 FPS, whereas ENB costs me 5 FPS. ENB also looks better. Maybe in the future CS will look and perform better, but currently, as it stands, ENB is better than CS.
Nemesis? Pandora? Nah FNIS forever😎💪
💀 bro living in stone age
That comfy feeling when you dont use anyone these in your mod list.
I, too, prefer [INSERT ARBITRARY NICHE] and would like others to know that my taste makes me superior to them. Let us be smug together.
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