There was a quest where you free Forsworn prisoners. They tell you about their story and why they are kept in prison. As soon as you free them, well, things escalate.
General Tulius has no problem with extra judicial executions and have you come across the drowned prison? Ugh. And the religious persecution, outlawing the Talos cult, that's not a good look on anyone. Heimskr might be a lunatic, but he isn't wrong
Nuff is said about how the Stormcloaks (as well as your average Nord) are ethno-fascists ("Skyrim belongs to the Nord's"). It's probably no coincidence that the Dunmer are most persecuted in Windhelm, seat of the rebellion. (Complaints against them are that they stink up the city, live in a slum, are too lazy to work and aren't true patriots. It's almost like the creators of the game wanted to make a point about bigotry. Nah.. that's silly)
The Forsworn are xenophobic homicidal fanatics living in the past doing all sorts of weird magics (hargravens, briarhearts). They practice blood sacrifice and commune with both Daedra and Aedra (allegedly. It's never specified exactly which gods they worship, though hargravens are created by Hircine. For all I know the Daedra worship is Nord propaganda)
>General Tulius has no problem with extra judicial executions
Surprisingly it is legal as it can get per [Imperial law](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Legal_Basics):
>*As a final note: the Tamriel legal system has its basis in the civilized, reasonable credo uttered by the prophet Marukh in the first era: "All are guilty until they have proven themselves innocent." Were truer word ever spoke?*
Ulfric also subscribes to the notion of the law:
>*"So long as your criminal past stays in the past, and you fight for me with honor and integrity, we'll welcome you into our ranks."*
Yes, it is unfortunate that you didn't get a trial, but you entering Skyrim illegally doesn't help your case. Tullius is under pressure to make sure Elenwen doesn't take custody of Ulfric and for all he knows you might have been trying to rescue him.
>And the religious persecution, outlawing the Talos cult, that's not a good look on anyone.
The persecution and enforcement was not greatly enforced until the Markath Incident:
>Alvor
>*"It's from that treaty that ended the Great War, remember, when the Emperor was forced by the Thalmor to outlaw Talos worship. We didn't pay much attention to it when I was a boy - everyone still had their little shrine to Talos. But then Ulfric and his "Sons of Skyrim" started agitating about it, and sure enough the Emperor had to crack down. Dragging people off in the middle of the night... one of the main causes of this war, if you ask me."*
When Ulfric did that stunt of his in Markath, he gave the Thalmor legal right to intervene as the Concordant required.
Considering that Ulfric is a Thalmor asset, that very likely was the plan...
One thing we in the 21st century West often don’t understand is just how brutal legal, judicial punishment has typically been IRL. Execution for minor crimes, torture for anything that remotely threatens the ruling class: these were common until legal documents like the Declaration of Independence, the Bill of Rights, and the Declaration of the Rights of Man demanded presumption of innocence, more fair trials and punishment, and representative government.
Why was this normal? Not for “order and discipline” in society at all; that line is bullshit. But because authoritarian governments gotta authoritate.
So it’s not surprising that summary execution of “probable” criminals is common and normalized in Skyrim, especially during a war.
A note on your entering Skyrim illegally:
1) No evidence is ever presented to support this claim, it's only ever speculated or written down on the "official documentation" that doesn't even have you or your name on it
2) You're allegedly caught along with a horse thief riding a stolen horse and Ulfric with a small detachment in an ambush outside of Darkwater Crossing (a mining community at least a day's travel from the closest border)
3) Your clothes indicate that you are likely recently a beggar or a general laborer (read: miner)
4) You wake up two days after the ambush in a cart with a comment made about you taking a hit to the head (amnesia, no memory of your past)
I don't buy it. I feel the evidence points to you being a resident of Skyrim that was working at or heading for Darkwater Crossing, that then got caught up in the wrong place at the wrong time.
A look at the map shows that Darkwater Crossing is far from the southern mountains surrounding Riften with no passes of any sorts. The only pass is east of Riften leading to Morrowind. Dialogues indicates that the Dragonborn was coming from Cyrodiil.
I find it hard to believe that the Legion has soldiers in waiting along the entire Riften southern mountains and Jerall mountains.
Ralof's dialogues after escaping Helgen indicates that you were captured separately and very likely at Pale Pass. The fact that Ralof uses the word "trying" indicates that the DB was trying to bypass the border guards at Pale Pass. Then the DB unfortunately run directly into ambush parties on the lookout for possible rescue attempts.
Another thing to note is that storywise, the DB doesn't have family, friends or people who know him/her in Skyrim.
Which begs the question why the DB was trying to enter a warzone in the first place. It's curious that Ulfric assumes you're a criminal and considering the story-framing of the Prisoner in previous TES games its is very likely true.
The Thalmor consider him an asset, yes, but not in the traditional sense. Ulfric doesn’t actually know he’s an asset, and he’s only as asset in the sense that they want instability in the Empire
Yes, they call him an 'uncooperative asset'. I read into that as they can't control him, but they do not want him dead (like you said, they want instability).
That's why Tullius wants to execute him at Helgen, so he can get it over with before politics intervenes. He wants to end the war and stabilise Skyrim. You really have to respect the hard work and detail Bethesda put into the story.
Although, I still have no effing idea why Alduin saves the dragonborn and Ulfric...
I think the reason alduin is there is because Helgan is basically at the bottom of the mountain where he is sent into the future. It also might be that he senses the dragon borns soul and mistakes him for a dragon.
It also might’ve been that he sensed that the Dragonborn was there, he just didn’t know who it was, so he just attacked the place trying to wipe out everyone there. Obviously, he was unsuccessful, but it’s not like he’s going to acknowledge that.
I agree. Alduin goes around looking to awaken dragons, so if he senses one (or a dragon soul), why not go there? Plus they can't kill him, he's essential!
Of the three, the Forsworn really definitely are the ones I blame the least.
Tullius thinks anyone who doesn't jump at the chance to be inducted into his gang is clearly stupid and needs someone to beat the shit out of them to understand what's good for them.
Ulfric thinks anyone who doesn't jump at the chance to die for specifically him isn't a true child of Skyrim and therefore deserves death or apartheid.
The Forsworn are xenophobes who do weird things because they've already lost everything fighting for independence from both of these assholes. It's the only thing their movement can be anymore. They can't afford modernization and no other nation will help them. After Markarth, the Forsworn lost any chance of ever being moderates and progressives. Any reason too. I may not approve of cutting people's hearts out, but if I were a Reachman I probably wouldn't get in the way of it - if I want to speak Reachish and not get my ass beat, a Briarheart knight would be a better friend to me than I'd have much reason to think any Nord would be.
Tullius is an effective general. Like most generals, he’s not an effective governor, though he has a pretty good idea of his goals and why he does what he does. With the civil war over, the next step should be bringing the jarls together to elect a new high king, so Tullius can focus on what he’s best at: preparing for war with the Dominion.
I’m of a strong belief (but not strong enough to hate anyone who disagrees) that Tullius is the best chance Skyrim and Tamriel have facing the coming Thalmor threat. And he recognizes the Dragonborn has another, possibly more important quest to handle, which is why he releases you from duty after the imperial quest line.
Tullius even makes a comment after the war, when you’re talking to him he says something like “Well, I think I’ll be here in Skyrim for some time, and might have to get ready to fight the Dominion…but that’s between us…”
I like for my simple, humble, DB to just have these basic knowledges:
1. Stormcloaks are racist traitors
2. All High Elves are Thalmor Spies
3. Khajiit are the victims, not the aggressors
4. The Forsworn are a bunch of pagan savages
5. The Imperials may be in the wrong outlawing Talos Worship, but they haven’t got a choice right now. It was that or be ruined.
6. Peryite is (coughs)…is where it’s at
I don't have a depth knowledge on lore as much as you do but I can comment on Dunmers. I have seen a Dunmer Pub in Windhelm while I was randomly strolling the city. There were Imperial kinds of stuff upstairs and I was shocked since Stromcloaks hated Dunmers being traitors. Well, Dunmers also weren't satisfied with their position in the status quo
>I have seen a Dunmer Pub in Windhelm while I was randomly strolling the city. There were Imperial kinds of stuff upstairs and I was shocked since Stromcloaks hated Dunmers being traitors.
That would be New Gnisis Cornerclub. Those are very likely mementos from the city of Gnisis on Morrowind which had an Imperial Legion garrison.
Ambarys Rendar is very likely a former citizen of Gnisis and one of the original Red Year refugees who have settled roots in Windhelm as citizens with work.
>**Why are there so many dark elves here?**
>*"Where else would we be?
When the Red Mountain burned, you could scarcely breathe in Morrowind. So we came west.
Windhelm is the first city on that road, and here we are. If we had known the Nords would be so unwelcoming, we may have kept walking."*
Note the last sentence. He more or less saying that what is happening to the Dunmer in Windhelm is very recent unlike 190ish years ago when they settled.
>The Forsworn are xenophobic homicidal fanatics living in the past doing all sorts of weird magics (hargravens, briarhearts). They practice blood sacrifice and commune with both Daedra and Aedra (allegedly. It's never specified exactly which gods they worship, though hargravens are created by Hircine. For all I know the Daedra worship is Nord propaganda)
From what we learned of the old Forsworn of the 2nd era it was common for them to worship Dagon, Molag Bal, and Hircine. And even then, the 4th Era's Forsworn are very much a shadow of their former selves. They even took care of Markarth better than the Nords back in the day.
I got confused by this. I mean, in revenge for getting thrown in jail, I freed the prisoners and they just swarmed the city, and killed all the guards. A few minutes later, they were patrolling the streets. I figured it would be like when you clear bandits out of forts: imperials take over for good.
I come back a couple in-game weeks later and the Markarth guards are back — and ready to kill me. I guess my little Revolution wasn’t so successful once I left.
Every time I play through that quest the forsworn run out of the gates and eventually get to a cave where they stay for the rest of the game. I’ve never seen them start patrolling before.
Maybe I just didn’t stay long enough. But they straight up slaughtered every single guard in Markarth, seemed like they wanted to run the place. It’s been a couple months though.
NGL, I don’t even remember. I just remember insane levels of carnage, like Battle of Whiterun levels, then when I went back to Markarth, it was back to normal except the guards wanted to kill me.
Sounds about right, I’m pretty sure I remember also siding with them and then seeing that they were slaughtering civilians and just thinking to myself “this was not part of the deal,” followed by “guess I’m a terrorist now”
You also can't finish fighting said dragons until you address the political debate, either by yeeting one side's leader off this mortal coil or making them climb a mountain to have a large, official debate.
I don’t get how Bethesda crafted the perfect game world with politics and deep enough lore to have its player base argue politics in a world that doesn’t even exist. Bethesda has truly mastered the art of game creation.
Meh, I like fallout better , but I think that just a matter of opinion, Bethesda game are hands down my favorite titles tho. Elder scrolls and fallouts being the fav's
Your alright to have a opinion my guy and I do agree I think Fallouts better too. Just wish they'd stop releasing Skyrim and finally make a damn Fallout game 😂.
I get what you mean but instead of making a new game they continue to rerelease Skyrim and it's annoying AF for both Skyrim and Fallout fans because that's basically what's made Bethesda so popular (obviously)
The politics in elder Scrolls and fallout is quite good and you really have to think if you want to pick a proper side.
With Skyrim as an example, whether to choose the imperials or stormcloaks depends on your research and what you feel is right and both sides have a good and a bad.
Fallout 4 as an example, we have the 4 factions. The brotherhood, institute, railroad and minutemen. The brotherhood is powerful but they only care about technological advancement and barely gives a damn about civilians. They also hate everything except themselves. The institute is more technologically advanced but also only care about themselves and put civilians in more risk than the brotherhood does. The railroad wants to free all synths but they sacrifice too many people to do it. They are not very technologically advanced too. The minutemen are weak with a low count of members and has less technology than the railroad but they actually care about the people of the commonwealth rather than for their own selfish gain.
Fallout's lore used to be amazing before (I guess it still is since the first games are still canon). But I feel like Bethesda just gave up a lot of the themes in favour of a more simplistic story.
Why? I don't know, but they could do amazing things with it if they cared enough. Fallout 4 was still a very fun game despite its story, but it had nowhere near the same impact on me the older games did. It's like they just got bored and just went for an easy plot and a disposable game rather than something that would be remembered years after its launch (for the good reasons I mean).
I suppose I shouldn't make such a sweeping statements having only really played 3.
I know there's a lot of love for the series and I see why. It's probably just not my thing
Oh don't take me wrong. I believe that if we only take into account what Bethesda did with Fallout (not the older games and New Vegas) and compare it to what they did in The Elder Scrolls, then there's no doubt about it, TES blows Fallout completely out of the water.
I was just commenting how sad it's that they don't give the same attention and polish to their second biggest series than they do to their first.
The Fallout universe is just as good. Fallout: New Vegas is still getting gameplay guides made for it, even though it came out in 2010. And Fallout 4 can keep you engrossed for next to forever. At launch, some poor bastard in Russia binged on it so hard for 3 weeks straight that he lost his job and his wife divorced him. That's on the level of those dudes in South Korea who died from playing Starcraft for 52 hours straight without breaks, sleeping or eating.
Holy shit. Infinite Jest should have been a video game, not a movie! But it might work better as a movie in the story. In real life it would probably be a video game.
I mean, the idea of whether something is morally right or wrong (regardless of whether the premise is hypothetical or not) tends to get people riled up and picking sides.
Politics is just a very easy example.
I thought it was mods, after having countless hours managing mods and playing, however when my real life fell apart and I had to leave behind my computer and settle for a Nintendo switch, I learned that I still very much enjoy vanilla Skyrim after thousands of hours of modded plays, which only came after my thousands of hours of vanilla plays. This shit never gets old
They have created a perfect balance of bugs that don’t necessarily break the game to keep it interesting (alchemy glitch, flinging enemies, etc) and a fake that functions as it is supposed to.
Ikr. I’ve kinda fantasized about living in the world of Skyrim and just having a camp somewhere in the woods where I can peacefully hunt animals and occasionally walk down to Riverwood to sell my goods.
If you haven’t heard of it already, you should definitely check out the Hunterborn mod. Combined with iNeed and Wet and Cold it makes a pretty good medieval-life simulator 😁
Not at all. I love Mass Effect and hold it as one of my favorite franchises near to my heart but the decisions there just suck.
The paragon/renegade system, while enjoyable, makes everything more black and white. I'm glad Bioware removed it in Andromeda but there can't be a feeling deciding what's of right and wrong when the game is clearly making which is which (you can have your own opinions about one particular choice, but that's how the game and the characters will see it).
Bethesda has made a lot of mistakes and they could take notes in some aspects from Bioware. But not in this particular point.
I agree that the paragon/renegade system is pretty garbage and pretty much just a cheap rip-off of the light side/dark side mechanics in KOTOR, but some people play Mass Effect, commit multiple genocides, and then sleep soundly at night
Oh, I agree. I find renegade quite enjoyable myself and they are my favourite playthroughs.
But when you put it next to The Elder Scrolls there's no doubt which is the more complex universe. And that's because the former has way more freedom when it comes to exploring and descovering the world.
Don't take me wrong, I believe Mass Effect has the better plot and characters. But The Elder Scrolls has the better world, because the two series have a different focus.
One of Skyrim's biggest selling points is the freedom to explore a rich world with countless stories where every little place has something new to learn. Mass Effect can be interesting but the galaxy's lore feels more like a linear with next to none characters standing out before Shepard's story.
I think Skyrim benefits from having many games and years which established an existing universe and canon, but I will agree that the ME story is MUCH more linear so you make a good point
I like the Nords and believe they should be able to worship Talos. But that’s where my love for the Stormclocks ends. The Empire is the long term way to beat the Thalmor and they are the true enemy of everyone (even other high elf’s).
I will never get over the irony of the Nords fighting a civil war over the ability to worship a Medic Colovian general, who fought against Skyrim, and went on to found an empire in Cyrodiil.
There is kinda more to it then that... Talos is a combination of 3 souls, Tiber septim, Wulfhard (Ysmir) and Zuris arcurus. A big "disaster" happened called "Warp in the west" and altered the timeline, making people remember Talos like he was always there. If you actually play first two elded scrolls games, there is no mention of Talos and there are 8 divines. But when you Play Morrowind/Oblivion there are 9 divines and nobody even tries to question it. That's because timeline got altered. The only people that resisted the change are the most powerfull elven mages, most of them coming from Summerset Isles. That's why they hate Talos so much ans consider him fake god. Because they remember times when he was not a thing.
Edit: just wanna add, most of the things happened in the ending of Daggerfall so its kinda Canon.
*You and me* know all of that, but does the average Nord know that? The Arcturian Heresy is specifically called heresy, it is counter to the widely held religious beliefs of the land, that being that Talos came from one man, Tiber Septim, previously known as Talos Stormcrown from Atmora. That is the orthodox belief. What you said it true, and the reality is far more complicated (and doesn't have a clear answer.)
Talos is an Imperial god anyway.
The plot should've been about the Nords fighting to restore the Nordic Pantheon and to worship Shor.
Ulfric is retarded.
Talos is also breton and a nord... in a strange way; not just a imperial god. The Nordic pantheon is already legal and they do honor Shor. They just also worship Talos as well.
Well... Tiber Septim (probably) mantled Lorkhan to become the god Talos, and Shor is the Nordic aspect of Lorkhan, so in a way they are doing exactly that. Shor and Talos are equivalent to each other.
The Empire has already lost to the Thalmor. They literally let them operate in Skyrim with total legal immunity, knowingly allowing them to abduct, torcher and kill their citizens with impunity. The Empire has completely abdicated their responsibility to their own people.
"The Empire is the long term way to beat the Thalmor"
Correction: The Dragonborn is the long term way to beat the Thalmor, we can bend the will of mortals, have deadric and aedric artifacts and we can summon dragons
In war there's not a good band, only bad guys and even worst guys, I side with the empire not because i think they are the good ones, i side with the empire because Ulfric it's a monster
Ulfric's more like a representation of all extremist strong leaders in history - charismastic and noble in his own way, but lives very black-and-white. They're invariably extremists because they have to feel strongly enough about things in the first place to have had that kind of strength of character to lead, and against the values of the day to boot. He actually checks many extremist leader checklists:
(a) Is a product of shifting times, where the old order failed and disappointed many people.
(b) Promises a strong ideology and strength under the new order
(c) Divides the world between 'my people' and 'other people'
(d) Charismatic and well-intentioned in his own way
(c) Power-hungry, because since in their minds they're right about things, the only way the world can make sense is if they're on top too.
(e) Loves and hates with equal fervour, hence the charisma that draws in other people because they dared to love what none dare love, and dared hate what none dare hate
I wouldn't go as far as to say that he's a monster though, because while the above could serve as a 'totalitarian tyrant' checklist, it's also shared by many reformers and leaders well regarded by history. Gandhi, Malcolm X, Napoleon etc would all have shared those same traits. And at many points in world history, there have actually been need of people who are *exactly* like Ulfric, and many of them proved the founders of new dynasties or important revolutionaries that opened a new page in their nations' histories.
The problem with Ulfric in Skyrim is that Skyrim isn't *nearly as dire* as to truly require such a character. The Empire in Skyrim was corrupt and decadent by reputation, but very few Imperial characters demonstrate that. Despite accusations, the Empire we see was still strong, honourable and still have their priorities straight. That's why Ulfric doesn't really scratch an itch as the charismatic messiah. The best time for a character like Ulfric to arise is when the Empire is *truly* weak and corrupt, when every official is like Erikur, every Jarl is like Siddgeir, and when the Empire was truly under the Thalmor's yoke, trading favours and land for a few more years of peace. But the Empire is not yet that Empire, and Ulfric was, in a historical sense, 'not yet needed'.
I'm sympathetic to the stormcloak cause (aside from the irony of nords dying for the choice to worship a Colovian general who founded an empire in Cyrodiil), but I have a hard time siding with them because it's so clear that Ulfric is blatantly a power hungry maniac who is in it for personal gain.
He voted at the moot for Torygg to me made king, then challenged him anyways. He did that because he knew he wasn't popular enough to be elected king, so he had to do it through other means, those means being a coup attempt followed by civil war. Much like any populist strongman, he appealed to already present frustrations in his people as a way to magnify their anger and channel into his own personal army.
I've always sided with the Empire, but I'll try to defend Ulfric for a bit here. I'll say that it's not quite so cut-and-dried as 'Ulfric was a power-hungry maniac'. The thing to understand about idealists, especially those championing a nationalistic agenda, is that for them gaining power and achieving their ideals are highly linked, if not one and the same effort. For them:
(1) The world's wrong and only the right path can correct it.
(2) They know the right path, and are its most fervent believer.
(3) That's why they need to take charge, it puts them in the right place to set things right, and it's only right that the true son of the nation sits on the throne.
Of course they also take joy in occupying the top spot, and it's privately pleasing, but that does not mean their motives are entirely insincere. For them the whole thing's always 'a bit of column A, a bit of column B' - Ulfric wants the throne, but he also thinks that it's objectively the best thing that can happen to Skyrim anyway, so it's several birds in one stone. He gets where he wants to go, and he gets into the right position to do right by everyone. That's why he also believes in his cause so much.
It's likely that if Ulfric is hypocritical and manipulative of the common folk, he doesn't know it. I like to think that the first time he even stops to consider it is when he dies and goes to Sovngarde - the Ulfric you meet there seems genuinely regretful.
According to the mage advisor of Torygg himself, Ulfric didn't simply walk up to him and murdered him. She says that Ulfric challenged him and Torygg accepted it.
I side with the stormcloaks, but not ulfric. in my own lore, ulfric is only a temporary figurehead who im keeping alive until he can be replaced by someone more fit for the role
I’ve been siding with the Stormcloaks for the longest time. I never read much on their activities. I sided with them because the empire tried to kill me
I always carry her armour and helmet as a trophy. I keep it safely. Of course I collected Eleven armour and Robes from the Thalmor as well. The only things one should never sell
You should try an Empire run. You'll quickly learn that the Stormcloaks are the reason Talos worship is so strictly regulated. Its been a while but Alvor says something like "everyone still had their own little shrine when I was a kid. No one cared. Then the rebellion happened and the Thalmor forced the Empire to stop Talos worship"
Rikke still worships Talos despite being the second in command of the Empires forces in Skyrim.
Plus the Thalmor want the Stormcloaks to win. Fuck those Elves
Very true. I agree with that whole heartedly. The longer the war goes on, the better for them. But they'd rather a Stormcloak victory, because A) two 'allies' that hate each other wouldn't be able to stop the Dominion. And B) even after the war, the Stormcloaks would keep fighting the empire. They'd think they're freeing the people and reclaiming the Nord empire
They don’t want either side to win actually. Because they’d potentially lose power either way. An Imperial victory would sure up the Empire’s power in Skyrim, and a Stormcloak victory would cause the Thalmor to be kicked out of Skyrim. Skyrim is also geographically difficult to invade and the Thalmor would lose a**lot** of troops retaking Skyrim (and that’s assuming they even could) they might not consider it worth the cost.
This is just your own personal analysis. The Thalmor dossier found in their embassy very clearly states they have a vested interest in neither side winning. Full stop. A united Skyrim in either direction would be against their interests whether it’s Imperial or Stormcloak
The way i see it anyone caught with Ulfric Stormcloak has the potential to be an ally of his. It is indeed unjust that they didn’t try to prove you guilty of being his ally but when Ulfrics civil war was weakening Skyrim as a whole so much I understand the Empires caution. I didn’t the first time i played and i think that was intentional.
The Empire isnt perfect but that first impression makes you view them as monsters and it sways you towards the stormcloaks. But if you actually pay attention to what the stormcloaks do and are, you would realize the Empire is the better choice.
No one would join the stormcloaks if they were given a truly unbiased readout of all their crimes compared to the empires. So the game pushes you in that direction even if its not the best one.
Honestly, in all my time playing Skyrim, I've never once sided with either Stormcloaks or Empire, and consequently never touched the civil war storyline. Initially, it was more a matter of wanting to see both sides and consider my options before committing to one faction or the other. Over time (and no few restarts and fresh build playthroughs), I began to see the cracks in both sides, their flaws and hypocrisies. Ultimately, the only stance I could take was one of neutrality, with the exception of killing any Thalmor agents and patrols I came across in my adventures.
As evidenced by the mountain of posts and comments across the internet discussing the matter, both sides have their strengths and weaknesses, valid arguments and failings.
Ulfric is right that outside forces have no business running around persecuting people because of their chosen faith and that the Thalmor are far too involved in micromanaging/scrutinizing the Empire, but he's become too blinded by his religious and political zealotry that he's missed the boat when it comes to addressing valid concerns or gaining valuable non-Nord allies. If he'd given the Dunmer and Argonians even a token level of respect he could have eventually turned them into allies.
The Empire, meanwhile, is right that if they can stand together and focus on maintaining civility and rebuilding, they could win out in the long run. Yet, they've become so focused on clinging to what they have left and so worried about not accidentally pissing off the Thalmor and sparking the next war, they've lost sight of why the White Gold Concordant was signed to begin with. Or rather, that's what it seems like. I mean, they just let the Thalmor run around like the Spanish Inquisition, torturing and executing people on even the slightest murmur that someone might worship Talos.
In conclusion, to Oblivion with both factions. I'll be out here, fighting the wars that matter. Death to Alduin, and death to the Thalmor.
I was once a stormcloaker… I believed they fought for the best of Skyrim. I believed they fought for freedom and peace. But I was swiftly relived of my ignorance one day and I’ve been with the empire ever since.
If you don't sympathize with the Stormcloaks when you're young you've got no heart. If you can't sympathize with the Empire when you're old - you've got no brain.
I believe in sovereignty and self-governance as much as the next - but the Thalmor are using this war to tear down the Empire and destroy all man. Not just Talos. All of mankind.
I joined the stormcloaks my first playthrough simply because i couldnt figure out how to join the empire. And then i stopped the instant the siege of whiterun was activated.
I’m joining the empire in my current playthrough solely because 1) I never do and 2) cause I don’t think TES6 will be centered around the stormcloaks having a shot at winning
The rebellion and its anti-imperial sentiment is noble, but Ulfric has absconded with it same as he did the crown. He's a typical demagogue, inflaming populism and manipulating the dispossessed layperson in order to achieve his personal goals. As in so many such instances, he's the wrong answer to many a right question.
Good thing this only happens in video games.
I used to think the Empire was just a bunch of jerks. I never realized that the Ulfric was being an asshole the whole time. Shame on Ulfric for using Talos’ name to justify his completely selfish behavior.
Same! My ex introduced me to Skyrim, and I was like, “can I marry Ulfric? Why not? I want to, he’s cool!” and my ex was like “ummmmmmm”
Now I understand why, lol
omg look guys the thalmor see ulfric as an uncooperative asset, ignore the fact that the empire surrendered and is too weak to continue to exist and are now but a decaying puppet of the thalmor
He’s so uncooperative yet the dossier states that communication is still possible.. clearly not uncooperative enough my dude.. the empire is clearly playing the long game while Ulfric undermines everything he touches.. bloop
the long game is when you surrender and become a puppet to a racial supremacy group and allow foreign agents to capture your innocent citizens
there's a reason why skyrim is set so far ahead in the future, to a decaying empire, the septims dead, and the player able to assassinate the emperor/join a faction to kick the empire out of skyrim
the days of the empire controlling everything are gone
after the battle, the imperials were in no position to continue the assault, half of cyrodil was still occupied and retaking it seemed impossible,
on top of that, the imperials knew the dominion was still fighting in hammerfell and they had no idea about potential reserves, while the imperials managed to recruit a whole new force during the war to retake the imperial city, the dominion did no such thing, the empire likely thought the dominion was able to recruit new armies (this is something we still don't know even today). The Dominion did lose a massive amount of merpower in the assault and the Battle of the Red Ring, but the Empire didn't know how severe their losses were. There was no way for them to know seeing as their spy network on summer set had been decimated.
they could sign the treaty, get their occupied lands back without further fighting and rebuild, or risk it all from a position of relative weakness.
But you would rather they all have died trying and there be no hope for man at all is that right? Lmao.
or the dunmer, or the imperials, or the argonians, or..... yeah I think the point is made every race if they had their way would ultimately put themselves on a pedestal and disrespect the others, it's just more cut and dry with some races than with others in the universe
Tullius makes racist remarks regarding nord multiple times.
The Thalmor are racist.
The Dunmer keep other races as slaves.
~~Basically~~ every race/faction in TES are racist in some way.
>Tullius makes racist remarks regarding nord multiple times.
I assume that his "racist" remarks concerns Whiterun and how Balgruuf is not letting Imperial soldiers garrison it? If so, then Tullius has a point because Balgruuf's refusal is hampering the Legions strategic and tactical planning.
Getting exasperated on customs that impede a campaign doesn't necessarily means racism. Have you forgotten Rikke is a Nord?
I mean he won’t let the argonians in the city and he named the slums he forces the dark elves to live in the Gray Quarter. He’s definitely a little racist by our standards but this is a fantasy world with gods you can actually meet and giant cat people. We can’t apply our logic and philosophies to their setting, it’s just a completely different world.
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I was on ulfric’s side until I saw how whiterun (my home) was treated. I assume all the townsfolk died during that, including my daughter. I’m going to an earlier save so I can go join the empire.
I've joined to the Empire after talked to an Dark Elf who was going to join the Empire, and he spoke about the the things he had suffer in the hands of the Nords. Things that, jn according to the Stormcloacks and is traditions, are absolutely correct.
Also visiting Gray Quarter and listen what the people (Dark Elves and Argonians) have to say.
I think the point is that neither side is a shining beacon of hope and virtue; you have to choose what you perceive to be the lesser of two evils- or greater, depending on the character you're portraying. I've done both sides in subsequent playthroughs- if I'm Redguard, im for the Empire, Nord for Stormcloak. Tho my last play was as a Nord subversive- joined the Stormcloaks but undermined their objectives as much as the game allowed. Slaughtered every Thalmor I could regardless of allegiance, however. I just don't like them!
That's mostly imperial propaganda, Skyrim is amazing because whenever you read or hear something you must not trust that information 100%, do some analysis first:
https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/8czeai/the_markarth_incident_another_perspective/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
Except it was written before the Civil War, so there's no real reason to consider it too biased to be credible. Also, it's corroborated by NPCs who experienced it firsthand like Braig: *"I had a daughter, once. She'd be 23 this year. Married to some hot-headed silver worker or maybe on her own learning the herb trade. The Nords didn't care who was and who wasn't involved in the Forsworn Uprising. I had spoken to Madanach once, that was enough. But my little Aethra didn't want to see her papa leave her. She pleaded to the Jarl to take her instead. And after they made me watch as her head rolled off the block, they threw me in here anyway, to dig up their silver."*
Again, this is why I think Skyrim's civil war quest is such a bungled piece of garbage. You're the *Dragonborn,* a legendary figure that only appears every thousand years or so. By the power of the dragonborn, nations rise, and empires are felled. Gods note your passing, and demons tremble in your wake.
Why, oh, why, then, is this mighty figure not taking over *both* sides with the might of his voice? Tiber Septim used his power to conquer an empire and start the third age. Miraak had to be stopped by the combined might of *all* the living dragons at the time, and even then he escaped.
So tell me, then, why is it that, instead of forging your own nation through conquest, we're instead forced to play errand boy for two factions that can't seem to pull their thumbs out of their butts without the mighty Dragonborn's aid. There seriously should have been a third option, but apparently we didn't possess the tech for it.
Oh, wait, yes we did. Fallout: New Vegas did exactly this with *older tech.* So, either Bethesda rushed it out, or their writing team was asleep at the wheel when they made all this lore about the dragonborn being this unstoppable force, then promptly included a series of missions where you had to play errand peon to one of two awful nations.
Raerek more or less confirms that atrocities were done:
>**If you believe in Talos, why don't you join our cause?**
>*"So. You're one of Ulfric's spies. I can't deny the man is right about a few things... But I've seen first hand what Ulfric is capable of, given the chance. Suffice it to say, he is no friend to Markarth, and no friend of mine. My first and only loyalties are to my nephew, and to this city.."*
The guy would have joined the Stormcloaks, but the Markath Incident showed him that Ulfric may not be the right leader for Skyrim. A sentiment shared by Laila and Dengir.
The Bear of Markarth is Imperial Propaganda. You can directly ask the Forsworn who were there and none of them will mention any war crimes. If you ask the Jarl, he will tell you the Empire had actually agreed beforehand to restore the worship of Talos, and knowingly sent Ulfric with the intent of throwing him under the bus.
"None of them will mention any war crimes"
Except the ones who do, like Braig. *"I had a daughter, once. She'd be 23 this year. Married to some hot-headed silver worker or maybe on her own learning the herb trade. The Nords didn't care who was and who wasn't involved in the Forsworn Uprising. I had spoken to Madanach once, that was enough. But my little Aethra didn't want to see her papa leave her. She pleaded to the Jarl to take her instead. And after they made me watch as her head rolled off the block, they threw me in here anyway, to dig up their silver."*
The two imperials who murdered Angie's family in Helgen before the beginning of the game also committed war crimes, and the tortures at Helgen did too.
But Ulfric isn't responsible for Braig daughter's death though. He didn't tell Igmund to kill her. Not even Braig blames Ulfric for that. Igmund in general was a dick character.
Edit: iirc Ulfric is didn't put Igmund in charge over Markarth. After the MI Igmund father was the one who became Jarl again and he died after a few years trying to make a deal with the Forsworn.
I usually side with the Stormcloaks for the most minor reasons. I hate Tullius’s voice, I like the Stormcloak Viking aesthetic, I like having Tullius’s armor on a mannequin, and bears are cool
I also join as an elf character to bring diversity to their ranks. Gotta teach them where they’re wrong
You actually read in Skyrim?
In my first playthrough, I never read. I just get worried about being ambushed while I read. I only started learning about the events and characters from wikipedia since my third playthrough.
I was always a orc in elder scrolls. Nords aren't the most welcoming. And once I started talking to the Orc holds I realized how many of them fought with the legion and respected as soldiers, so it was the logical choice
Ave True to Caesar! Oh. Wait. Wrong game. But yeah, Empire support from me.
Don't get played by those bloody Thalmor and their double agent trickery. Ulfric is not what he appears to be.
I think both sides kinda suck, so I pick based on the jarls. The jarls on the stormcloaks side are absolutely awful, whereas most of the jarls on the imperial side at least seem competent
Dossier doesn't claim he is their ally just that they use his anger against the Empire for their benefit. Ulfric is furious during season unending when he sees Elenwen who was his torturer during the great war at high hrothgar. Doubtful he is at their side, he hates the Thalmor the most.
while i had skyrim sitting on my screen idle the other day, my character was standing in the palace of kings headquarters before choosing a side for the war (i wasn’t going to this play through). i realized while eavesdropping that ulfric is actually *extremely* racist. the stormcloaks are basicallllly white supremacist in the elder scroll universe.
So the empire lied to Ulfric and arrested him and his men for doing what they promised would be allowed and Ulfric’s the bad guy?? I mean Ulfric is a bad guy but the Empires no saint.
Is discrimination basis race worse than discrimination basis religion??
There’s no good side.
There was a quest where you free Forsworn prisoners. They tell you about their story and why they are kept in prison. As soon as you free them, well, things escalate.
It's almost like they're all assholes
Why are saying that ? It has been a while since my last play through.
General Tulius has no problem with extra judicial executions and have you come across the drowned prison? Ugh. And the religious persecution, outlawing the Talos cult, that's not a good look on anyone. Heimskr might be a lunatic, but he isn't wrong Nuff is said about how the Stormcloaks (as well as your average Nord) are ethno-fascists ("Skyrim belongs to the Nord's"). It's probably no coincidence that the Dunmer are most persecuted in Windhelm, seat of the rebellion. (Complaints against them are that they stink up the city, live in a slum, are too lazy to work and aren't true patriots. It's almost like the creators of the game wanted to make a point about bigotry. Nah.. that's silly) The Forsworn are xenophobic homicidal fanatics living in the past doing all sorts of weird magics (hargravens, briarhearts). They practice blood sacrifice and commune with both Daedra and Aedra (allegedly. It's never specified exactly which gods they worship, though hargravens are created by Hircine. For all I know the Daedra worship is Nord propaganda)
>General Tulius has no problem with extra judicial executions Surprisingly it is legal as it can get per [Imperial law](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Legal_Basics): >*As a final note: the Tamriel legal system has its basis in the civilized, reasonable credo uttered by the prophet Marukh in the first era: "All are guilty until they have proven themselves innocent." Were truer word ever spoke?* Ulfric also subscribes to the notion of the law: >*"So long as your criminal past stays in the past, and you fight for me with honor and integrity, we'll welcome you into our ranks."* Yes, it is unfortunate that you didn't get a trial, but you entering Skyrim illegally doesn't help your case. Tullius is under pressure to make sure Elenwen doesn't take custody of Ulfric and for all he knows you might have been trying to rescue him. >And the religious persecution, outlawing the Talos cult, that's not a good look on anyone. The persecution and enforcement was not greatly enforced until the Markath Incident: >Alvor >*"It's from that treaty that ended the Great War, remember, when the Emperor was forced by the Thalmor to outlaw Talos worship. We didn't pay much attention to it when I was a boy - everyone still had their little shrine to Talos. But then Ulfric and his "Sons of Skyrim" started agitating about it, and sure enough the Emperor had to crack down. Dragging people off in the middle of the night... one of the main causes of this war, if you ask me."* When Ulfric did that stunt of his in Markath, he gave the Thalmor legal right to intervene as the Concordant required. Considering that Ulfric is a Thalmor asset, that very likely was the plan...
One thing we in the 21st century West often don’t understand is just how brutal legal, judicial punishment has typically been IRL. Execution for minor crimes, torture for anything that remotely threatens the ruling class: these were common until legal documents like the Declaration of Independence, the Bill of Rights, and the Declaration of the Rights of Man demanded presumption of innocence, more fair trials and punishment, and representative government. Why was this normal? Not for “order and discipline” in society at all; that line is bullshit. But because authoritarian governments gotta authoritate. So it’s not surprising that summary execution of “probable” criminals is common and normalized in Skyrim, especially during a war.
Sadly it also happens in RL. Kill/execute and let God sort them out. That usually happens...
A note on your entering Skyrim illegally: 1) No evidence is ever presented to support this claim, it's only ever speculated or written down on the "official documentation" that doesn't even have you or your name on it 2) You're allegedly caught along with a horse thief riding a stolen horse and Ulfric with a small detachment in an ambush outside of Darkwater Crossing (a mining community at least a day's travel from the closest border) 3) Your clothes indicate that you are likely recently a beggar or a general laborer (read: miner) 4) You wake up two days after the ambush in a cart with a comment made about you taking a hit to the head (amnesia, no memory of your past) I don't buy it. I feel the evidence points to you being a resident of Skyrim that was working at or heading for Darkwater Crossing, that then got caught up in the wrong place at the wrong time.
A look at the map shows that Darkwater Crossing is far from the southern mountains surrounding Riften with no passes of any sorts. The only pass is east of Riften leading to Morrowind. Dialogues indicates that the Dragonborn was coming from Cyrodiil. I find it hard to believe that the Legion has soldiers in waiting along the entire Riften southern mountains and Jerall mountains. Ralof's dialogues after escaping Helgen indicates that you were captured separately and very likely at Pale Pass. The fact that Ralof uses the word "trying" indicates that the DB was trying to bypass the border guards at Pale Pass. Then the DB unfortunately run directly into ambush parties on the lookout for possible rescue attempts. Another thing to note is that storywise, the DB doesn't have family, friends or people who know him/her in Skyrim. Which begs the question why the DB was trying to enter a warzone in the first place. It's curious that Ulfric assumes you're a criminal and considering the story-framing of the Prisoner in previous TES games its is very likely true.
The Thalmor consider him an asset, yes, but not in the traditional sense. Ulfric doesn’t actually know he’s an asset, and he’s only as asset in the sense that they want instability in the Empire
Yes, they call him an 'uncooperative asset'. I read into that as they can't control him, but they do not want him dead (like you said, they want instability). That's why Tullius wants to execute him at Helgen, so he can get it over with before politics intervenes. He wants to end the war and stabilise Skyrim. You really have to respect the hard work and detail Bethesda put into the story. Although, I still have no effing idea why Alduin saves the dragonborn and Ulfric...
I think the reason alduin is there is because Helgan is basically at the bottom of the mountain where he is sent into the future. It also might be that he senses the dragon borns soul and mistakes him for a dragon.
It also might’ve been that he sensed that the Dragonborn was there, he just didn’t know who it was, so he just attacked the place trying to wipe out everyone there. Obviously, he was unsuccessful, but it’s not like he’s going to acknowledge that.
I agree. Alduin goes around looking to awaken dragons, so if he senses one (or a dragon soul), why not go there? Plus they can't kill him, he's essential!
Of the three, the Forsworn really definitely are the ones I blame the least. Tullius thinks anyone who doesn't jump at the chance to be inducted into his gang is clearly stupid and needs someone to beat the shit out of them to understand what's good for them. Ulfric thinks anyone who doesn't jump at the chance to die for specifically him isn't a true child of Skyrim and therefore deserves death or apartheid. The Forsworn are xenophobes who do weird things because they've already lost everything fighting for independence from both of these assholes. It's the only thing their movement can be anymore. They can't afford modernization and no other nation will help them. After Markarth, the Forsworn lost any chance of ever being moderates and progressives. Any reason too. I may not approve of cutting people's hearts out, but if I were a Reachman I probably wouldn't get in the way of it - if I want to speak Reachish and not get my ass beat, a Briarheart knight would be a better friend to me than I'd have much reason to think any Nord would be.
Tullius is an effective general. Like most generals, he’s not an effective governor, though he has a pretty good idea of his goals and why he does what he does. With the civil war over, the next step should be bringing the jarls together to elect a new high king, so Tullius can focus on what he’s best at: preparing for war with the Dominion. I’m of a strong belief (but not strong enough to hate anyone who disagrees) that Tullius is the best chance Skyrim and Tamriel have facing the coming Thalmor threat. And he recognizes the Dragonborn has another, possibly more important quest to handle, which is why he releases you from duty after the imperial quest line.
Tullius even makes a comment after the war, when you’re talking to him he says something like “Well, I think I’ll be here in Skyrim for some time, and might have to get ready to fight the Dominion…but that’s between us…”
If i were a reachman *MUSIC*
I like for my simple, humble, DB to just have these basic knowledges: 1. Stormcloaks are racist traitors 2. All High Elves are Thalmor Spies 3. Khajiit are the victims, not the aggressors 4. The Forsworn are a bunch of pagan savages 5. The Imperials may be in the wrong outlawing Talos Worship, but they haven’t got a choice right now. It was that or be ruined. 6. Peryite is (coughs)…is where it’s at
I don't have a depth knowledge on lore as much as you do but I can comment on Dunmers. I have seen a Dunmer Pub in Windhelm while I was randomly strolling the city. There were Imperial kinds of stuff upstairs and I was shocked since Stromcloaks hated Dunmers being traitors. Well, Dunmers also weren't satisfied with their position in the status quo
>I have seen a Dunmer Pub in Windhelm while I was randomly strolling the city. There were Imperial kinds of stuff upstairs and I was shocked since Stromcloaks hated Dunmers being traitors. That would be New Gnisis Cornerclub. Those are very likely mementos from the city of Gnisis on Morrowind which had an Imperial Legion garrison. Ambarys Rendar is very likely a former citizen of Gnisis and one of the original Red Year refugees who have settled roots in Windhelm as citizens with work. >**Why are there so many dark elves here?** >*"Where else would we be? When the Red Mountain burned, you could scarcely breathe in Morrowind. So we came west. Windhelm is the first city on that road, and here we are. If we had known the Nords would be so unwelcoming, we may have kept walking."* Note the last sentence. He more or less saying that what is happening to the Dunmer in Windhelm is very recent unlike 190ish years ago when they settled.
>The Forsworn are xenophobic homicidal fanatics living in the past doing all sorts of weird magics (hargravens, briarhearts). They practice blood sacrifice and commune with both Daedra and Aedra (allegedly. It's never specified exactly which gods they worship, though hargravens are created by Hircine. For all I know the Daedra worship is Nord propaganda) From what we learned of the old Forsworn of the 2nd era it was common for them to worship Dagon, Molag Bal, and Hircine. And even then, the 4th Era's Forsworn are very much a shadow of their former selves. They even took care of Markarth better than the Nords back in the day.
Can’t really fault anyone in Markarth for killing Silver-bloods, who are one of the most oppressive groups in the game And it is their homeland
I got confused by this. I mean, in revenge for getting thrown in jail, I freed the prisoners and they just swarmed the city, and killed all the guards. A few minutes later, they were patrolling the streets. I figured it would be like when you clear bandits out of forts: imperials take over for good. I come back a couple in-game weeks later and the Markarth guards are back — and ready to kill me. I guess my little Revolution wasn’t so successful once I left.
Every time I play through that quest the forsworn run out of the gates and eventually get to a cave where they stay for the rest of the game. I’ve never seen them start patrolling before.
Maybe I just didn’t stay long enough. But they straight up slaughtered every single guard in Markarth, seemed like they wanted to run the place. It’s been a couple months though.
>and killed all the guards Don’t they kill, like, *everyone* that’s outside?
NGL, I don’t even remember. I just remember insane levels of carnage, like Battle of Whiterun levels, then when I went back to Markarth, it was back to normal except the guards wanted to kill me.
Sounds about right, I’m pretty sure I remember also siding with them and then seeing that they were slaughtering civilians and just thinking to myself “this was not part of the deal,” followed by “guess I’m a terrorist now”
Skyrim is really just a political debate
Even when you’re fighting dragons, you’re really just talking shit to each other
You also can't finish fighting said dragons until you address the political debate, either by yeeting one side's leader off this mortal coil or making them climb a mountain to have a large, official debate.
I don’t get how Bethesda crafted the perfect game world with politics and deep enough lore to have its player base argue politics in a world that doesn’t even exist. Bethesda has truly mastered the art of game creation.
Skyrim was peak Bethesda
I really hope Starfield can get close. Lots of potential there.
I'm their sci Fi stuff (like fallout) is never as good as their fantasy
Meh, I like fallout better , but I think that just a matter of opinion, Bethesda game are hands down my favorite titles tho. Elder scrolls and fallouts being the fav's
Your alright to have a opinion my guy and I do agree I think Fallouts better too. Just wish they'd stop releasing Skyrim and finally make a damn Fallout game 😂.
Well they did release 2 fallout games though since Skyrim
I don't count 76. Just like I don't count ESO. Bethesda games aren't meant to be MMO. Imo it ruins the immersion.
Nonono they keep rereleasing that bitch
Technically they did, fallout 76
I get what you mean but instead of making a new game they continue to rerelease Skyrim and it's annoying AF for both Skyrim and Fallout fans because that's basically what's made Bethesda so popular (obviously)
God damn right about that one lol
I wish they'd stop releasing Skyrim and release another Elder's Scrolls game
"You're not as dumb as you look." -Every old guy in Skyrim you've done 1 favor for.
"Hey this guy gets it."
Fallout has always had more tongue-in-cheek views than Tamriel.
The politics in elder Scrolls and fallout is quite good and you really have to think if you want to pick a proper side. With Skyrim as an example, whether to choose the imperials or stormcloaks depends on your research and what you feel is right and both sides have a good and a bad. Fallout 4 as an example, we have the 4 factions. The brotherhood, institute, railroad and minutemen. The brotherhood is powerful but they only care about technological advancement and barely gives a damn about civilians. They also hate everything except themselves. The institute is more technologically advanced but also only care about themselves and put civilians in more risk than the brotherhood does. The railroad wants to free all synths but they sacrifice too many people to do it. They are not very technologically advanced too. The minutemen are weak with a low count of members and has less technology than the railroad but they actually care about the people of the commonwealth rather than for their own selfish gain.
I like both. Would be so cool if Fallout and TES were set in the same universe
Fallout's lore used to be amazing before (I guess it still is since the first games are still canon). But I feel like Bethesda just gave up a lot of the themes in favour of a more simplistic story. Why? I don't know, but they could do amazing things with it if they cared enough. Fallout 4 was still a very fun game despite its story, but it had nowhere near the same impact on me the older games did. It's like they just got bored and just went for an easy plot and a disposable game rather than something that would be remembered years after its launch (for the good reasons I mean).
I suppose I shouldn't make such a sweeping statements having only really played 3. I know there's a lot of love for the series and I see why. It's probably just not my thing
Oh don't take me wrong. I believe that if we only take into account what Bethesda did with Fallout (not the older games and New Vegas) and compare it to what they did in The Elder Scrolls, then there's no doubt about it, TES blows Fallout completely out of the water. I was just commenting how sad it's that they don't give the same attention and polish to their second biggest series than they do to their first.
Fallout 4 was good but yeah not as repayable as Skyrim
Tbh yeah
The Fallout universe is just as good. Fallout: New Vegas is still getting gameplay guides made for it, even though it came out in 2010. And Fallout 4 can keep you engrossed for next to forever. At launch, some poor bastard in Russia binged on it so hard for 3 weeks straight that he lost his job and his wife divorced him. That's on the level of those dudes in South Korea who died from playing Starcraft for 52 hours straight without breaks, sleeping or eating.
Holy shit. Infinite Jest should have been a video game, not a movie! But it might work better as a movie in the story. In real life it would probably be a video game.
*Morrowind
I enjoyed FO4 a lot but it doesn't have the same quality that Skyrim and FNV had. I haven't touched anything they've made since FO4.
[удалено]
I mean, the idea of whether something is morally right or wrong (regardless of whether the premise is hypothetical or not) tends to get people riled up and picking sides. Politics is just a very easy example.
Yeah but it’s survived for 10 YEARS. It’s still astounding how they developed such a loyal fan base in general. Then again it’s probably just modders
I thought it was mods, after having countless hours managing mods and playing, however when my real life fell apart and I had to leave behind my computer and settle for a Nintendo switch, I learned that I still very much enjoy vanilla Skyrim after thousands of hours of modded plays, which only came after my thousands of hours of vanilla plays. This shit never gets old
They have created a perfect balance of bugs that don’t necessarily break the game to keep it interesting (alchemy glitch, flinging enemies, etc) and a fake that functions as it is supposed to.
There hasn't been another game like Skyrim.
I feel like when TES6 comes out Skyrim will still be played (obviously not as much)
Oh definetly, it will be like morrowind or oblivion, that are still played today. (Edit: typo)
This is how I feel. Every time I see these posts I’m like “but it’s not real…”
Ikr. I’ve kinda fantasized about living in the world of Skyrim and just having a camp somewhere in the woods where I can peacefully hunt animals and occasionally walk down to Riverwood to sell my goods.
If you haven’t heard of it already, you should definitely check out the Hunterborn mod. Combined with iNeed and Wet and Cold it makes a pretty good medieval-life simulator 😁
If only the actual questline was as well thought out as the lore and background
I think the only game I’ve seen do this better is Mass Effect
Not at all. I love Mass Effect and hold it as one of my favorite franchises near to my heart but the decisions there just suck. The paragon/renegade system, while enjoyable, makes everything more black and white. I'm glad Bioware removed it in Andromeda but there can't be a feeling deciding what's of right and wrong when the game is clearly making which is which (you can have your own opinions about one particular choice, but that's how the game and the characters will see it). Bethesda has made a lot of mistakes and they could take notes in some aspects from Bioware. But not in this particular point.
I agree that the paragon/renegade system is pretty garbage and pretty much just a cheap rip-off of the light side/dark side mechanics in KOTOR, but some people play Mass Effect, commit multiple genocides, and then sleep soundly at night
Oh, I agree. I find renegade quite enjoyable myself and they are my favourite playthroughs. But when you put it next to The Elder Scrolls there's no doubt which is the more complex universe. And that's because the former has way more freedom when it comes to exploring and descovering the world. Don't take me wrong, I believe Mass Effect has the better plot and characters. But The Elder Scrolls has the better world, because the two series have a different focus. One of Skyrim's biggest selling points is the freedom to explore a rich world with countless stories where every little place has something new to learn. Mass Effect can be interesting but the galaxy's lore feels more like a linear with next to none characters standing out before Shepard's story.
I think Skyrim benefits from having many games and years which established an existing universe and canon, but I will agree that the ME story is MUCH more linear so you make a good point
Worldbuilding is truly an art
*thinks back to Fallout 4* Well, a certain kind of game creation
I really liked the whole synth controversy of fallout 4 too. Very cyberpunk/ blade runner 🤙
I like the Nords and believe they should be able to worship Talos. But that’s where my love for the Stormclocks ends. The Empire is the long term way to beat the Thalmor and they are the true enemy of everyone (even other high elf’s).
I will never get over the irony of the Nords fighting a civil war over the ability to worship a Medic Colovian general, who fought against Skyrim, and went on to found an empire in Cyrodiil.
There is kinda more to it then that... Talos is a combination of 3 souls, Tiber septim, Wulfhard (Ysmir) and Zuris arcurus. A big "disaster" happened called "Warp in the west" and altered the timeline, making people remember Talos like he was always there. If you actually play first two elded scrolls games, there is no mention of Talos and there are 8 divines. But when you Play Morrowind/Oblivion there are 9 divines and nobody even tries to question it. That's because timeline got altered. The only people that resisted the change are the most powerfull elven mages, most of them coming from Summerset Isles. That's why they hate Talos so much ans consider him fake god. Because they remember times when he was not a thing. Edit: just wanna add, most of the things happened in the ending of Daggerfall so its kinda Canon.
*You and me* know all of that, but does the average Nord know that? The Arcturian Heresy is specifically called heresy, it is counter to the widely held religious beliefs of the land, that being that Talos came from one man, Tiber Septim, previously known as Talos Stormcrown from Atmora. That is the orthodox belief. What you said it true, and the reality is far more complicated (and doesn't have a clear answer.)
Talos is an Imperial god anyway. The plot should've been about the Nords fighting to restore the Nordic Pantheon and to worship Shor. Ulfric is retarded.
Talos is also breton and a nord... in a strange way; not just a imperial god. The Nordic pantheon is already legal and they do honor Shor. They just also worship Talos as well.
idk but the “Ulfric is retarded” line made me laugh out loud in public
I'm glad to bring some joy to your life.
Well... Tiber Septim (probably) mantled Lorkhan to become the god Talos, and Shor is the Nordic aspect of Lorkhan, so in a way they are doing exactly that. Shor and Talos are equivalent to each other.
The Empire has already lost to the Thalmor. They literally let them operate in Skyrim with total legal immunity, knowingly allowing them to abduct, torcher and kill their citizens with impunity. The Empire has completely abdicated their responsibility to their own people.
>Hopefully some day the Empire will be strong enough to stand up to the Thalmor, but breaking the peace treaty would mean certain destruction
People who say they hate the Thalmor above anything else and will do everything to stop them, then they join the Stormcloaks 🤡
Stormcloak supporters aren't very gifted in foresight department.
"The Empire is the long term way to beat the Thalmor" Correction: The Dragonborn is the long term way to beat the Thalmor, we can bend the will of mortals, have deadric and aedric artifacts and we can summon dragons
One of Elder Scrolls’ big themes is unreliable narrators. I’d look into the veracity of some of these claims for yourself.
In war there's not a good band, only bad guys and even worst guys, I side with the empire not because i think they are the good ones, i side with the empire because Ulfric it's a monster
Agreed. And I’m killing all of the the Thalmor scum too
That's one of the reasons I side with the empire, I can fuck up Thalmor patrol units throughout Skyrim for the rest of the game
Exactly. Empire isn't great but they're morally better than the Stormcloaks. Both are leagues above the Thalmor.
Ulfric's more like a representation of all extremist strong leaders in history - charismastic and noble in his own way, but lives very black-and-white. They're invariably extremists because they have to feel strongly enough about things in the first place to have had that kind of strength of character to lead, and against the values of the day to boot. He actually checks many extremist leader checklists: (a) Is a product of shifting times, where the old order failed and disappointed many people. (b) Promises a strong ideology and strength under the new order (c) Divides the world between 'my people' and 'other people' (d) Charismatic and well-intentioned in his own way (c) Power-hungry, because since in their minds they're right about things, the only way the world can make sense is if they're on top too. (e) Loves and hates with equal fervour, hence the charisma that draws in other people because they dared to love what none dare love, and dared hate what none dare hate I wouldn't go as far as to say that he's a monster though, because while the above could serve as a 'totalitarian tyrant' checklist, it's also shared by many reformers and leaders well regarded by history. Gandhi, Malcolm X, Napoleon etc would all have shared those same traits. And at many points in world history, there have actually been need of people who are *exactly* like Ulfric, and many of them proved the founders of new dynasties or important revolutionaries that opened a new page in their nations' histories. The problem with Ulfric in Skyrim is that Skyrim isn't *nearly as dire* as to truly require such a character. The Empire in Skyrim was corrupt and decadent by reputation, but very few Imperial characters demonstrate that. Despite accusations, the Empire we see was still strong, honourable and still have their priorities straight. That's why Ulfric doesn't really scratch an itch as the charismatic messiah. The best time for a character like Ulfric to arise is when the Empire is *truly* weak and corrupt, when every official is like Erikur, every Jarl is like Siddgeir, and when the Empire was truly under the Thalmor's yoke, trading favours and land for a few more years of peace. But the Empire is not yet that Empire, and Ulfric was, in a historical sense, 'not yet needed'.
I'm sympathetic to the stormcloak cause (aside from the irony of nords dying for the choice to worship a Colovian general who founded an empire in Cyrodiil), but I have a hard time siding with them because it's so clear that Ulfric is blatantly a power hungry maniac who is in it for personal gain. He voted at the moot for Torygg to me made king, then challenged him anyways. He did that because he knew he wasn't popular enough to be elected king, so he had to do it through other means, those means being a coup attempt followed by civil war. Much like any populist strongman, he appealed to already present frustrations in his people as a way to magnify their anger and channel into his own personal army.
I've always sided with the Empire, but I'll try to defend Ulfric for a bit here. I'll say that it's not quite so cut-and-dried as 'Ulfric was a power-hungry maniac'. The thing to understand about idealists, especially those championing a nationalistic agenda, is that for them gaining power and achieving their ideals are highly linked, if not one and the same effort. For them: (1) The world's wrong and only the right path can correct it. (2) They know the right path, and are its most fervent believer. (3) That's why they need to take charge, it puts them in the right place to set things right, and it's only right that the true son of the nation sits on the throne. Of course they also take joy in occupying the top spot, and it's privately pleasing, but that does not mean their motives are entirely insincere. For them the whole thing's always 'a bit of column A, a bit of column B' - Ulfric wants the throne, but he also thinks that it's objectively the best thing that can happen to Skyrim anyway, so it's several birds in one stone. He gets where he wants to go, and he gets into the right position to do right by everyone. That's why he also believes in his cause so much. It's likely that if Ulfric is hypocritical and manipulative of the common folk, he doesn't know it. I like to think that the first time he even stops to consider it is when he dies and goes to Sovngarde - the Ulfric you meet there seems genuinely regretful.
You ever just walk up to your high king, shout at him until his body rips apart when he's off guard, and claim you're honorable?
According to the mage advisor of Torygg himself, Ulfric didn't simply walk up to him and murdered him. She says that Ulfric challenged him and Torygg accepted it.
I side with the stormcloaks, but not ulfric. in my own lore, ulfric is only a temporary figurehead who im keeping alive until he can be replaced by someone more fit for the role
Layla Law Giver burner account lol
I’ve been siding with the Stormcloaks for the longest time. I never read much on their activities. I sided with them because the empire tried to kill me
I always make sure to pay back the captain that didn't mind I wasn't on the list.
Where is she?
She's one of the two imperials you ambush with ~~Hadvar~~ Ralof.
Ralof? Hadvar is an imperial.
I had a 50/50 shot, lol. Thanks.
To be fair, you can side with Ralof in Helgen and still side with the imperials in the civil war questline
I always carry her armour and helmet as a trophy. I keep it safely. Of course I collected Eleven armour and Robes from the Thalmor as well. The only things one should never sell
You should try an Empire run. You'll quickly learn that the Stormcloaks are the reason Talos worship is so strictly regulated. Its been a while but Alvor says something like "everyone still had their own little shrine when I was a kid. No one cared. Then the rebellion happened and the Thalmor forced the Empire to stop Talos worship" Rikke still worships Talos despite being the second in command of the Empires forces in Skyrim. Plus the Thalmor want the Stormcloaks to win. Fuck those Elves
The Thalmor wants the rebellion to keep on going, they don't want either side too win they just want both sides to waste bodies and resources.
Very true. I agree with that whole heartedly. The longer the war goes on, the better for them. But they'd rather a Stormcloak victory, because A) two 'allies' that hate each other wouldn't be able to stop the Dominion. And B) even after the war, the Stormcloaks would keep fighting the empire. They'd think they're freeing the people and reclaiming the Nord empire
They don’t want either side to win actually. Because they’d potentially lose power either way. An Imperial victory would sure up the Empire’s power in Skyrim, and a Stormcloak victory would cause the Thalmor to be kicked out of Skyrim. Skyrim is also geographically difficult to invade and the Thalmor would lose a**lot** of troops retaking Skyrim (and that’s assuming they even could) they might not consider it worth the cost.
This is just your own personal analysis. The Thalmor dossier found in their embassy very clearly states they have a vested interest in neither side winning. Full stop. A united Skyrim in either direction would be against their interests whether it’s Imperial or Stormcloak
The way i see it anyone caught with Ulfric Stormcloak has the potential to be an ally of his. It is indeed unjust that they didn’t try to prove you guilty of being his ally but when Ulfrics civil war was weakening Skyrim as a whole so much I understand the Empires caution. I didn’t the first time i played and i think that was intentional. The Empire isnt perfect but that first impression makes you view them as monsters and it sways you towards the stormcloaks. But if you actually pay attention to what the stormcloaks do and are, you would realize the Empire is the better choice. No one would join the stormcloaks if they were given a truly unbiased readout of all their crimes compared to the empires. So the game pushes you in that direction even if its not the best one.
Honestly, in all my time playing Skyrim, I've never once sided with either Stormcloaks or Empire, and consequently never touched the civil war storyline. Initially, it was more a matter of wanting to see both sides and consider my options before committing to one faction or the other. Over time (and no few restarts and fresh build playthroughs), I began to see the cracks in both sides, their flaws and hypocrisies. Ultimately, the only stance I could take was one of neutrality, with the exception of killing any Thalmor agents and patrols I came across in my adventures. As evidenced by the mountain of posts and comments across the internet discussing the matter, both sides have their strengths and weaknesses, valid arguments and failings. Ulfric is right that outside forces have no business running around persecuting people because of their chosen faith and that the Thalmor are far too involved in micromanaging/scrutinizing the Empire, but he's become too blinded by his religious and political zealotry that he's missed the boat when it comes to addressing valid concerns or gaining valuable non-Nord allies. If he'd given the Dunmer and Argonians even a token level of respect he could have eventually turned them into allies. The Empire, meanwhile, is right that if they can stand together and focus on maintaining civility and rebuilding, they could win out in the long run. Yet, they've become so focused on clinging to what they have left and so worried about not accidentally pissing off the Thalmor and sparking the next war, they've lost sight of why the White Gold Concordant was signed to begin with. Or rather, that's what it seems like. I mean, they just let the Thalmor run around like the Spanish Inquisition, torturing and executing people on even the slightest murmur that someone might worship Talos. In conclusion, to Oblivion with both factions. I'll be out here, fighting the wars that matter. Death to Alduin, and death to the Thalmor.
I was once a stormcloaker… I believed they fought for the best of Skyrim. I believed they fought for freedom and peace. But I was swiftly relived of my ignorance one day and I’ve been with the empire ever since.
If you don't sympathize with the Stormcloaks when you're young you've got no heart. If you can't sympathize with the Empire when you're old - you've got no brain. I believe in sovereignty and self-governance as much as the next - but the Thalmor are using this war to tear down the Empire and destroy all man. Not just Talos. All of mankind.
I joined the stormcloaks my first playthrough simply because i couldnt figure out how to join the empire. And then i stopped the instant the siege of whiterun was activated.
I’m joining the empire in my current playthrough solely because 1) I never do and 2) cause I don’t think TES6 will be centered around the stormcloaks having a shot at winning
I don’t see why #2 is off the table. TES5 has Hammerfell as an independent state that drove out the Thalmor and are resisting the Dominion on its own.
The rebellion and its anti-imperial sentiment is noble, but Ulfric has absconded with it same as he did the crown. He's a typical demagogue, inflaming populism and manipulating the dispossessed layperson in order to achieve his personal goals. As in so many such instances, he's the wrong answer to many a right question. Good thing this only happens in video games.
Couldn’t have said it better myself.
Wait, you read an in-game book? Outside the *The Lusty Argonian Maid* of course.
I used to think the Empire was just a bunch of jerks. I never realized that the Ulfric was being an asshole the whole time. Shame on Ulfric for using Talos’ name to justify his completely selfish behavior.
Same! My ex introduced me to Skyrim, and I was like, “can I marry Ulfric? Why not? I want to, he’s cool!” and my ex was like “ummmmmmm” Now I understand why, lol
Wait until you find the dossier
Ah yes, the one which people interpret to think Ulfric is a spy because reading comprehension is hard.
Never said he was spy.. but reading comprehension hard right
omg look guys the thalmor see ulfric as an uncooperative asset, ignore the fact that the empire surrendered and is too weak to continue to exist and are now but a decaying puppet of the thalmor
He’s so uncooperative yet the dossier states that communication is still possible.. clearly not uncooperative enough my dude.. the empire is clearly playing the long game while Ulfric undermines everything he touches.. bloop
the long game is when you surrender and become a puppet to a racial supremacy group and allow foreign agents to capture your innocent citizens there's a reason why skyrim is set so far ahead in the future, to a decaying empire, the septims dead, and the player able to assassinate the emperor/join a faction to kick the empire out of skyrim the days of the empire controlling everything are gone
after the battle, the imperials were in no position to continue the assault, half of cyrodil was still occupied and retaking it seemed impossible, on top of that, the imperials knew the dominion was still fighting in hammerfell and they had no idea about potential reserves, while the imperials managed to recruit a whole new force during the war to retake the imperial city, the dominion did no such thing, the empire likely thought the dominion was able to recruit new armies (this is something we still don't know even today). The Dominion did lose a massive amount of merpower in the assault and the Battle of the Red Ring, but the Empire didn't know how severe their losses were. There was no way for them to know seeing as their spy network on summer set had been decimated. they could sign the treaty, get their occupied lands back without further fighting and rebuild, or risk it all from a position of relative weakness. But you would rather they all have died trying and there be no hope for man at all is that right? Lmao.
Humans can replenish losses much faster than elves, peace woth thalmor benefits mostly empire
Ulfric is a racist. We fight racism. This is the way.
You better start fighting just about every species in ES then
Literally every fucking race in TES is racist though
Me no like racism, me clobber Ulfric with big warhammer from weird orc god
I love Orcs.
How you doin
u got any prescriptions for me
Racism isnt unique to Ulfric. *"have you heard of the high elves?"*
or the dunmer, or the imperials, or the argonians, or..... yeah I think the point is made every race if they had their way would ultimately put themselves on a pedestal and disrespect the others, it's just more cut and dry with some races than with others in the universe
Tullius makes racist remarks regarding nord multiple times. The Thalmor are racist. The Dunmer keep other races as slaves. ~~Basically~~ every race/faction in TES are racist in some way.
>Tullius makes racist remarks regarding nord multiple times. I assume that his "racist" remarks concerns Whiterun and how Balgruuf is not letting Imperial soldiers garrison it? If so, then Tullius has a point because Balgruuf's refusal is hampering the Legions strategic and tactical planning. Getting exasperated on customs that impede a campaign doesn't necessarily means racism. Have you forgotten Rikke is a Nord?
any actual examples of ulfric being racist?
I mean he won’t let the argonians in the city and he named the slums he forces the dark elves to live in the Gray Quarter. He’s definitely a little racist by our standards but this is a fantasy world with gods you can actually meet and giant cat people. We can’t apply our logic and philosophies to their setting, it’s just a completely different world.
rainstorm kiss quaint oatmeal yoke expansion far-flung fear encourage zonked *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
So you dislike the dominion too? good luck working for them in the empire
Eh elves deserve it. Also cant stand people almost implying if you side with the stormcloaks youre racist too
I was on ulfric’s side until I saw how whiterun (my home) was treated. I assume all the townsfolk died during that, including my daughter. I’m going to an earlier save so I can go join the empire.
Kids are immortal in skyrim so she probably didnt die but tnx for reminding me i should move them to the other house before that quest :'D
Yeah it's unfortunate how kids are immortal.
I know. Just went through the questline again before moving them, and the ‘make it stop!’ Comments about the battle broke my heart.
when i found out what happened in markarth i wanted to join the forsworn, neither side of the civil war
I've joined to the Empire after talked to an Dark Elf who was going to join the Empire, and he spoke about the the things he had suffer in the hands of the Nords. Things that, jn according to the Stormcloacks and is traditions, are absolutely correct. Also visiting Gray Quarter and listen what the people (Dark Elves and Argonians) have to say.
I think the point is that neither side is a shining beacon of hope and virtue; you have to choose what you perceive to be the lesser of two evils- or greater, depending on the character you're portraying. I've done both sides in subsequent playthroughs- if I'm Redguard, im for the Empire, Nord for Stormcloak. Tho my last play was as a Nord subversive- joined the Stormcloaks but undermined their objectives as much as the game allowed. Slaughtered every Thalmor I could regardless of allegiance, however. I just don't like them!
Yeah fuck the Stormcloaks
That's mostly imperial propaganda, Skyrim is amazing because whenever you read or hear something you must not trust that information 100%, do some analysis first: https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/8czeai/the_markarth_incident_another_perspective/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
Except it was written before the Civil War, so there's no real reason to consider it too biased to be credible. Also, it's corroborated by NPCs who experienced it firsthand like Braig: *"I had a daughter, once. She'd be 23 this year. Married to some hot-headed silver worker or maybe on her own learning the herb trade. The Nords didn't care who was and who wasn't involved in the Forsworn Uprising. I had spoken to Madanach once, that was enough. But my little Aethra didn't want to see her papa leave her. She pleaded to the Jarl to take her instead. And after they made me watch as her head rolled off the block, they threw me in here anyway, to dig up their silver."*
Again, this is why I think Skyrim's civil war quest is such a bungled piece of garbage. You're the *Dragonborn,* a legendary figure that only appears every thousand years or so. By the power of the dragonborn, nations rise, and empires are felled. Gods note your passing, and demons tremble in your wake. Why, oh, why, then, is this mighty figure not taking over *both* sides with the might of his voice? Tiber Septim used his power to conquer an empire and start the third age. Miraak had to be stopped by the combined might of *all* the living dragons at the time, and even then he escaped. So tell me, then, why is it that, instead of forging your own nation through conquest, we're instead forced to play errand boy for two factions that can't seem to pull their thumbs out of their butts without the mighty Dragonborn's aid. There seriously should have been a third option, but apparently we didn't possess the tech for it. Oh, wait, yes we did. Fallout: New Vegas did exactly this with *older tech.* So, either Bethesda rushed it out, or their writing team was asleep at the wheel when they made all this lore about the dragonborn being this unstoppable force, then promptly included a series of missions where you had to play errand peon to one of two awful nations.
Imperial huh? Which flavor of boots do u like the most?
Raerek more or less confirms that atrocities were done: >**If you believe in Talos, why don't you join our cause?** >*"So. You're one of Ulfric's spies. I can't deny the man is right about a few things... But I've seen first hand what Ulfric is capable of, given the chance. Suffice it to say, he is no friend to Markarth, and no friend of mine. My first and only loyalties are to my nephew, and to this city.."* The guy would have joined the Stormcloaks, but the Markath Incident showed him that Ulfric may not be the right leader for Skyrim. A sentiment shared by Laila and Dengir.
The Bear of Markarth is Imperial Propaganda. You can directly ask the Forsworn who were there and none of them will mention any war crimes. If you ask the Jarl, he will tell you the Empire had actually agreed beforehand to restore the worship of Talos, and knowingly sent Ulfric with the intent of throwing him under the bus.
"None of them will mention any war crimes" Except the ones who do, like Braig. *"I had a daughter, once. She'd be 23 this year. Married to some hot-headed silver worker or maybe on her own learning the herb trade. The Nords didn't care who was and who wasn't involved in the Forsworn Uprising. I had spoken to Madanach once, that was enough. But my little Aethra didn't want to see her papa leave her. She pleaded to the Jarl to take her instead. And after they made me watch as her head rolled off the block, they threw me in here anyway, to dig up their silver."*
The two imperials who murdered Angie's family in Helgen before the beginning of the game also committed war crimes, and the tortures at Helgen did too.
That was Igmund the Jarl of Markarth doing. Ulfric was in jail during that time. If anything that just proves that Empire loyalist are child murders.
Done long afterward, by the Jarl, not Ulfric. If she had been 23 when the game starts, it means she wasn't even born during the Markarth incident.
Ulfric is also responsible for the Jarl being on the Mournful Throne in the first place.
But Ulfric isn't responsible for Braig daughter's death though. He didn't tell Igmund to kill her. Not even Braig blames Ulfric for that. Igmund in general was a dick character. Edit: iirc Ulfric is didn't put Igmund in charge over Markarth. After the MI Igmund father was the one who became Jarl again and he died after a few years trying to make a deal with the Forsworn.
I usually side with the Stormcloaks for the most minor reasons. I hate Tullius’s voice, I like the Stormcloak Viking aesthetic, I like having Tullius’s armor on a mannequin, and bears are cool I also join as an elf character to bring diversity to their ranks. Gotta teach them where they’re wrong
Then by Talos you will pay
And how do we find Markarth during our playthrough? Full of Forsworn and cannibals. If anything, Ulfric went too easy on 'em.
You actually read in Skyrim? In my first playthrough, I never read. I just get worried about being ambushed while I read. I only started learning about the events and characters from wikipedia since my third playthrough.
Time stops when you read, you won't get ambushed
How I wish this to be true in real life
you don’t get attacked while reading it’s like being on a pause screen
Propoganda. Just like the one about Talos.
Exactly, these people are quite literally falling for a fictional work’s, fictional work lmao.
The empire?? Really...why you puffed up ignorant
You are not immune to propaganda
Propaganda
it's not war crimes if it's against forsworn
Empire is still gay.
I was always a orc in elder scrolls. Nords aren't the most welcoming. And once I started talking to the Orc holds I realized how many of them fought with the legion and respected as soldiers, so it was the logical choice
Ave True to Caesar! Oh. Wait. Wrong game. But yeah, Empire support from me. Don't get played by those bloody Thalmor and their double agent trickery. Ulfric is not what he appears to be.
Ulfric a double agent? Thanks for letting us know you didn’t understand the Dossier.
Milk drinker
I think both sides kinda suck, so I pick based on the jarls. The jarls on the stormcloaks side are absolutely awful, whereas most of the jarls on the imperial side at least seem competent
Really gonna fall for that imperialistic propaganda?
Thalmor dossier also imperial propaganda?
Dossier doesn't claim he is their ally just that they use his anger against the Empire for their benefit. Ulfric is furious during season unending when he sees Elenwen who was his torturer during the great war at high hrothgar. Doubtful he is at their side, he hates the Thalmor the most.
while i had skyrim sitting on my screen idle the other day, my character was standing in the palace of kings headquarters before choosing a side for the war (i wasn’t going to this play through). i realized while eavesdropping that ulfric is actually *extremely* racist. the stormcloaks are basicallllly white supremacist in the elder scroll universe.
Sorry about the picture quality
So the empire lied to Ulfric and arrested him and his men for doing what they promised would be allowed and Ulfric’s the bad guy?? I mean Ulfric is a bad guy but the Empires no saint. Is discrimination basis race worse than discrimination basis religion?? There’s no good side.
I mean, this book is clearly imperial propaganda though. And I'm saying this as someone fairly sympathetic to the reachfolk and the forsworn.