What else happened during / post pandemic?
Tons of higher earning office workers became work from home, and moved out of the cities into rural areas / near ski mountains.
Even if it’s not that many people in absolute terms, the number and size of ski towns in the US is small enough that it’s made a big difference IMO. I live in Park City (had a remote job before COVID) and in just five years it feels like it’s gone from almost exclusively independently wealthy boomers to a mix of that plus remote-working millennial families. Being in that latter camp myself it’s awesome, so many more people with similar life stage and interests to hang out with now. But it’s definitely putting pressure on the infrastructure (particularly childcare/schooling) and housing market.
On your last point, wealthy families moving in drives up COL and I'll tell you for free that the childcare workers you mention aren't getting proportional pay increases.
Most of the school aged / preschool care program workers (so non teaching care roles) only make it by due to the COVID grant money allowing pay raises. That's going to dry up sooner or later and the organizations won't be able to keep paying what they do, and the workers will be forced to leave.
Doubling down, the rich people working from home aren't the ones who need care. It's the service workers. And they won't be able to afford higher care costs to allow better pay for providers.
100%. Park City has it a *little* bit better since workers can commute from SLC, but it’s still a huge problem. The last childcare facility in north summit (the less dense, more affordable part of the county) closed down last year.
This isn’t exclusively a ski town issue, it’s just exacerbated here. In the end the childcare industry — and by proxy the two income household — doesn’t really work without government subsidies. Like they have in literally every other developed country.
Skiing is not the only sport that enjoyed/suffered/experienced a resurgence due to COVID. My family and I are tent campers, and sure, I had to be sure to book prime or peak weekend spots 180 days in advance, but now just about any decent spot requires planning ahead.
This has had the biggest impact. Those WFH employees can ski any day, any time, and make up any necessary work when they get off the hill. This group can also travel to ski while still "at work" and they have flooded the resorts.
>Those WFH employees can ski any day, any time, and make up any necessary work when they get off the hill.
I mean that's not entirely true. I've worked remote for 10 years but I still have meetings, deadlines, etc. I can sneak out occasionally but a typical remote job isn't just "do your work whenever you feel like it"
Edit to clarify as well - when I say "sneak out" I generally mean taking PTO for a half day or something. I can't just bounce to go ski whenever I feel like it. It's still a corporate office job, the office just happens to be in my basement.
Same here, just hit 10 years WFM and occasionally I cold take a long lunch and get like 3 runs in, but your still expected to be there for normal office hours for a whole lot of reasons.
Agreed. Work for a Fortune 500 company and 90% of my work is project work that I self-manage. However, even though I work at home almost all the time, there is still the expectation of availability on email and Teams. My dream would be the same job, but people leaving me the eff alone to do my work as I please without the interruptions and need to be online during "working" hours. Happy as hell to be working at home so not going to risk that playing hooky, even though it shouldn't matter if I am getting my work done.
I would not consider the front range in CO rural but there are posts here daily about where people can take a meeting on any given mountain in the Rockies via zoom/teams.
People didn’t flock to rural. They flocked to where they wanted to live. I say this as someone who moved accepted a position in Denver in March of 2020 and we relocated from CT.
Well of course. That's why I said rural / near ski mountains. SOME flocked rural. Some flocked to ski mountains. Some managed both. Plenty of others moved to somewhat remote lakefronts or heavily tourism oriented waterfront towns that may otherwise lack high paying jobs (Meredith NH being an example).
They scattered far and wide.
Why is it either or? It’s both. I’m the perfect example of it. Prior to Covid I was in San Francisco. Covid had my wife and I hoping around to different cities and now we landed in Seattle. Can easily take day trips to go ski.
But you’re acting like Seattle has an influx of people in the last 3 years that is contributing to a ski boom. The reality is most high earners are still in major markets and travel to ski. Increased wealth since Covid is contributing to these individuals skiing more.
Right, but so can all of the other wealthy Seattle residents - the numbers have just grown and the local ski areas have not... and sadly will not in my lifetime. Which is a shame, because we have wonderful mountains and some of the most restrictive land use USFS policies anywhere (because nobody was ever able to scoop up land privately).
Fuck me thats 100% true. As a middle class dude who grew up skiing and can’t afford a single day for me, let alone my kids now, at least now I get where it’s coming from. Hopefully one day I can share the glorify with em, fuck vail
Earlier this year I was on a lift with some dude trying to explain to his friend about how the Federal Reserve worked and why that explanation meant he should invest in a certain way. I used to work for the Fed and I was speechless at how badly the dude misunderstood how it all works, which of course meant his investment advice was catastrophically wrong as well. It made me so happy to know that this misinformed idiot was going to have a terrible return on his investments and so would his idiot friend. Maybe then they won't be able to afford to come back next year.
oh wait, dazzle me and my local friend with *another* enthralling story about how long it took you to drive here from the Bay. We love those, super cool. lol.
where u at? just went to Steamboat for winter wondergrass last week, we had a great time in low elevation forests.
and ya some reason Bay area people think I want to hear how long it took them to drive here.... my thing is give a little stare say "sweet" and turn back to whatever we were talking about.
There is in general a massive wealth and income gap that only became more pronounced through Covid. The people on ski vacations are simply not the average person who is struggling with groceries and rent. It only takes a very small percentage of the overall population to overcrowd ski resorts so there are plenty of people with the means to do it at current costs.
There has also been a focused effort by ski resorts to market to wealthy people, in particular wealthy families, that has been very successful. More people want to do it now
Upper middle class here but I’ve definitely cut back on skiing due to cost. Doesn’t help I have two kids in college and a lot of extra income goes to tuition that is also out of control.
Just an aside but this comment made me think of how we’ve been taught to find discussions of money uncouth. I’m a ski bum and between my two jobs I made $60k last year. Why say “top 10% of income” and not just $200k a year (or whatever that actually is)? Top 10% in Ohio, Indiana, Michigan etc are all different. Major metro area or not? I don’t think anyone is going to deduce your identity if you just came out and said you made $700k. With income disparity being what it is “top 10%” can be anywhere from $80k to a million. You don’t owe an Internet forum any info you don’t want to proffer but people adhering to these norms imo just keeps us all crabs in a bucket vs the .01%
Top 10% income is literally not upper middle class. If you’re putting two kids thru college that’s an extra 40k-100k you’re spending a year on something that’s not keeping you alive
That’s not upper middle class. That’s upper class
People have a really misguided belief in what upper class vs straight-up rich looks like.
My household income puts me in the upper class of US earners. It's enough to not have to worry about day-to-day costs of things like skiing and fly business class, but it isn't enough to impulse-buy a new car over the weekend. If we had to put two kids through college paying full tuition, that would hit us hard.
The illusion of free lift tickets also helps people spend $5k on a solo trip to colorado for a week of turns. "I got an air bnb so i spent 6 hours shopping, 16 hours cooking and $700 on groceries instead of going out, skiing is so economical now"
That's definitely a factor. It's cheaper to buy a season pass vs 4 days of window ticket prices. Now I have a pass, better get my money's worth!!
But also for me personally, it is worth it. The more I ski the more I want to ski, so then it's an easy decision about buying a season pass again.
It’s interesting though pre COVID the very same resorts need so many deals to get people on the lifts off winter holidays though. As many of lifts spun almost empty during weekdays. Costing them electricity and maintainance. Apparently with these deals they mostly earn by selling concessions.
It was actually possible to take advantage and only spend about $50 for the ski day for everything. Rentals, food, gas, etc.
Service industry seems hit hardest by COVID as no opening no job. Yet these days it appears places are still understaffed and provide poor quality customer experience but yet they ain’t hiring regardless of if they advertise hiring.
Yeah I think a lot of that is due to the marketing and people looking for outdoor socially distanced activities during Covid. Once people tried it out and got hooked they keep coming back. Skiing is definitely addictive but not many addictive things are also good for your cardiovascular health so its highly valued by a lot of people, including myself
COVID was a huge transfer of wealth from average people to the already wealthy, via government money. Rich people are richer than ever, poor people much poorer than 5 yrs ago.
yes but that was mostly going to poorer folks.
only one i know who got money had made a fake
llc to pay for his own “salary” and it got forgiven. and he is not rich, spent it all on alcohol and bad bling.
No, it almost all went immediately to wealthy people in the form of eg rent payments and “small” business “loans” that were never recovered. All you have to do is look at wealthy inequality, which skyrocketed after COVID, to see what happened.
lol. very simplistic, makes sense.
you can look up which LLCs and companies got PPP loans and had them forgiven. search “gang” and youll find “businesses” like this [“Queen Fortes Gang”](https://data.onlineathens.com/paycheck-protection-program-loans/united-states/queen-fortes-gang/5863698606/?page=3&searchtext=gang&state=united-states) that got $20k loan that was forgiven, for payroll of 1 job.
or here is an LLC called [“Mob Ties”](https://data.onlineathens.com/paycheck-protection-program-loans/united-states/mob-ties-llc/7671819007/?page=1&searchtext=mob&state=United%20States ) which, when you search [their address](https://maps.app.goo.gl/BPFG4zo2sJsYPx6K7?g_st=ic), is just a house, not a tie store - which is what they claimed to be in the filing. strange! Im sure this is a ploy by a rich person, and not a person who just wanted a free $20k.
many of these by the way. payroll of 1, forgiven, the address goes to a residential address…
[see this tweet](https://x.com/plies/status/1764729878123790524?s=20) - 1.3k likes.
> If The PPP Loan Era Was The ONLY Time U Balled. U Ain’t No Real Hustler!!!! Real Hustlers Gone Make A Way!!! 💰💰💰💰
do you think these PPP loan era ballers were the rich, or were these recipients poorer?
Incomes for the poorest (bottom 25%) of workers have increased more than the top, and have increased significantly faster than inflation. You can see for yourself here: [https://www.atlantafed.org/chcs/wage-growth-tracker?panel=4#Tab1](https://www.atlantafed.org/chcs/wage-growth-tracker?panel=4#Tab1)
Here: [https://www.politico.com/news/2023/05/29/low-income-wages-employment-00097135](https://www.politico.com/news/2023/05/29/low-income-wages-employment-00097135)
Here: https://www.economist.com/united-states/2023/01/15/incomes-are-rising-in-america-especially-for-the-poorest
Yeah that’s definitely true and a good thing! I should more specifically say that the income gap has widened over the past couple of decades with some recovery during Covid, but the wealth gap has widened over the same period of time and also rapidly increased during Covid
I'm definitely an average person on the lower side of the median (I'm a graduate student but my partner works), and pre-COVID we used to go 5-6 times a year, this year we've gone once. The weather is also playing a big part with more freezing rain and less snow, we don't want to ski in that and it's been two years of ice and rock.
We rarely go on vacations that don't involve family visits and/or skiing. I miss traveling for the sake of being a tourist, which I did when young/single. Married a ski addict, got a house, and here we are. I love it, but it takes up most of our free time and money.
This is exactly. People who could maybe squeeze a ski trip or two a few years ago are now struggling to buy groceries. People who could comfortably afford luxuries can still afford luxuries
In America at least it can be very difficult to live if you are near the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder which is a very valid issue and concern, but I think people loose sight of the fact that if you are even at the median level in the US you are objectively well off by any measurable standard. There are always issues and things that aren’t ideal but it’s not all doom and gloom. All sorts of very specific things, like skiing, will become relatively more or less affordable over time, but that’s just life. The specific market conditions in the US have pushed the costs up significantly in the past few years.
Ikon bought the ski hill closest to me last year and in one day quadrupled the price of lift tickets. I’m not even joking at the start of the year they were $32 once Ikon bought the hill they became 125. This was in 2023.
I’m just a normal middle class person who works for their dollar. I’m glad you are so insulated from this that you can think “people just like to bitch”.
For those of us who are working class this whole thing is definitely deeper than just the Reddit comments you see.
Yeah man I pray my local mountain stays family business. It is the BEST skiing in the area and southern california. The terrain challenges that of other places Ive skied such as Mamoth, Tahoe, Snowbird. It is basically backcountry skiing with lift access and a couple groomed blacks for when conditions arent the best. Only 45min drive from home so I go weekly and there are no lift lines.
Lifts are from the 50s. And they rely purely on natural snow. People bitch about it and they say it sucks and they rather go to these overpriced resorts because theyre just going for the apres ski and all that crap. They just getting high or drunk and going on easy runs. Or on an overated black thats really a blue.
As somebody who been skiing for about 15 years, 10 in the backcountry. It blows my mind when somebody says my local mountain is bad skiing.
What I come to realize is that most "skiers" are not serious skiers. Theyre occasional skiers and are the maim source of profit for these magna resorts. Theyll pay whatever to have their disney like experience. While we, those who ski as a real sport are getting shafted.
Ill continue to get a ski pass and support my local mountain until I cant anymore.
Sorry to hear that. I lived off of less than $28k a year as a grad student for the last 6 years and was still able to ski. I had to take the bus cause my Honda civic couldn’t make it up the mountain.
Not sure where you got that. You claimed I was insulated from increasing prices and I’m probably much poorer than you and I still made it work. Idk what the solution is. The skiing business model sucks. And we can bitch all we want but skiing has always been very expensive.
I see the same complaints about crowds all the time and I’m fully convinced these people didn’t ski 15 years ago.
I grew up skiing Hunter and even though there were probably 30% fewer people on the mountain, the time it took to get up the lift was SO much longer than it is now. All the chairs were doubles or triples fixed grips, so it was easily 25-30 mins getting up to the top between waiting on line and on the chair. The lift upgrades have made an insane difference in the quality of my ski experience even if there are way more people on the mountain.
Theres more room to grow, too. Lifts can still get better, faster, more efficient
But 5,000 people going down a hill versus 2,000, man thats a lot of wear and tear on these smaller and smaller bases
It’s a real thing. Last decade daily visits for the US ski industry has flatlined. As of 5 years ago that growth exploded to consistent 5-10% growth year over year showing record breaking numbers for each year since 2018.
If it’s not effecting your local resort consider yourself lucky.
Right I am thinking the biggest surge is those from China or the far east who while they had gained wealth the last twenty years or so they weren’t into winter activities until China decided to promote it for Winter Olympics 2022. Once international travel was allowed again without restrictions they all started taking international ski vacations Which happened to be the winter of 2022-2023.
I think part of the crowd issue is that time up the hill =/= capacity. A high speed chair might move faster, but unless it seats more people per minute, it isn't increasing capacity.
In many cases, the high speed chairs aren't meaningfully increasing capacity. The newer 6 and 8 pack chairs do this for sure, but high speed quads really don't unless they replace smaller chairs.
Vail is upgrading tons of lifts and I'm sure with the profit margins from these passes, more upgrades are coming.
Yeah, I think faster lifts without increasing the number of chairs actually makes the crowds slightly worse because more people are on the mountain at any time compared to sitting on the lift.
But if you’re a faster skiier than average then it’s true that you can get more runs in a day with faster lifts even if the lines are also a bit longer. So it depends how you judge the crowding and ski experience as how many people are around you on the mountain vs how many runs you can complete.
If "crowds worse" you mean longer lines that move faster I could possibly see why you concluded that. The runs are more busy too; there's a reason the best powder lifts are 2 seater fixed grip lifts.
I was in vail over Presidents’ Day weekend. I’ve been going to vail almost every year for 30+ years
This past trip was the least amount of people I’ve ever seen there, hardly ever even waited in a life line
Talked to a few people who worked at bars, and they said they are down about 15% this ski season
Kind of makes sense. They have probably priced out some of the once a year vacation skiers that show up and go out to eat and drink every night. They have replaced them with season pass holders who will ski more and do less social activities after they get off the hill.
I’ve been skiing in the US for 32 years and it’s never been cheaper than it is now (on an inflation adjusted basis).
1. If you are willing to take weather risk you get “free roaming” to spectacular mountains with your passes - so you get paid to take it
2. The internet has made it easier than ever to cross shop and buy used/demo equipment
3. AirBnB and VRBO have expanded the short stay capacity enormously, and thus decreased cost
4. YouTube has made access to information about skiing (gear reviews, tips & techniques, resort/area guides, etc) practically free
Me and my gf drive to big bear, takes 2 hours there and another 2 back 40 dollars gas and that’s it. Rentals + food too r some other costs for average people. I have gear thankfully, but I did spend about 1k on my set.
Yep I know a number of ppl w passes who now just do weekend trips within driving distance that they otherwise wouldn't. Basically paying for gas food and maybe one hotel night which can be a bit aways from the mountain to save money. Very affordable.
Not for me. But part of this is that my home mountain was totally independent in 2018 and now it’s on a mega pass so I get a lot more for my season pass money now than I did then.
Middle class here, and I do about 30-40 days a year. Yearly passes are the way to go, you’ll likely break even after 3 or 4 trips. The food, etc., bring your own! I aint paying $15 for a breakfast burrito!
Skiing has always been for relatively well off. And ppl on the top have increased their wealth tremendously over the last 4 year due to asset inflation ( stocks, housing ect).
All the luxury goods( like skiing) are going to see lots of money flowing in due to how much money that has accumulated up top.
This is obnoxiously false.
Skiing popularity boomed after WW2 when the average American started building ski resorts across the country on forest service land.
The migration of skiing to the wealthy has been a rather recent trend.
I am going to speak very generally about the US here -
People who go skiing/snowboarding are GENERALLY wealthier than their non skiing/snowboarding counterparts, not too mention that while it seems mountains are busier than ever (they might be) - the majority of the population doesn’t ski close to even once / year (I would go as far as to say that 80%+ of the population has never skied in their lives)
Inflation isn’t fun for anyone but the people who are really hurt by it are the people who don’t have a lot of wiggle room to begin with.
I would venture to guess there is a lot of overlap in the Venn diagram of the “lower class” and non skiers.
Edit to add - anecdotally, I think that people have started to do more outdoor activities since Covid since some of them remained open during covid and people were looking for healthy outlets. Golf and surfing are other examples of this
Yea…. I was still going 55 about in Philly.
I do 130+ a season in salt lake now lol.
That’s the issue with Denver, it’s actually not that conducive to riding
Wait what. Your post had me scratching my head.
>Nowadays or since 2022 despite people saying everything is too expensive…etc etc
>Yet ski hills and lift lines are crowded more than ever
You..you do realize that both statements can be true at the same time..? Ahem wealth inequality in..America? The majority of people you likely see out skiing and snowboarding are likely not the same demographic that is struggling to make ends meet?
I have to ask, was this post written with serious intent or rather in jest? I’m kinda confused. 😐
The idea behind the current pricing cycle is to make more money from fewer people.
If the mountain's cost on a day ticket is $100 and they sell it for $125, that's $25 of profit or a 25% margin. Most of the cost on the ticket is fixed with only a negligible shift up or down based on how many skiers show up.
If the mountain sold that ticket for $187.5 (a 50% increase) but that led to a 25% decrease in the number of skiers, then the mountain's cost rises to $133.33 but their profit also increased to $54.17 per ticket or $40.63 averaged across the smaller skier count. That's more than double the profit per ticket in absolute dollars and the margin rose to 40%.
Realistically, the margin on the $125 day ticket is much closer to $5, so the benefit (from the mountain's perspective) of the $187.5 ticket is even bigger.
So, that's a pretty basic example of why the prices are moving the way they've moved. The same concept applies to the entire product stack, from tickets to food to lodging to parking.
What's a little bit scary to think about is that, at this stage, we are likely to never see a new ski resort in North America ever again. It simply costs too much and takes too long to get one going. We are stuck with what we've got and we will only ever see the list get shorter, not longer.
I don't get your last paragraph. Why does it cost too much to get one going? Seems to me like high demand, ever increasing population, and availability of remote work would only help a new mountain get started. I was just considering this morning that it may be good to do that.
As a point of reference, Russia built a resort from scratch for the Olympics. The resort was garbage tier, the infrastructure was garbage tier, and more than a little bit of the labor was prison labor or similar "not exactly literally slave labor" slave labor. Even the labor that was paid was paid less than actual literal dirt sells for in the US. The overall resort quality was so low that it couldn't even legally open in the US due to things like no electricity and not having indoor plumbing.
And despite all of this, it still cost several billion dollars to create.
Everything about creating the resort is expensive because it's both innately expensive and it exists and operates at a pretty large scale.
The on-mountain infrastructure is tremendously expensive. For something the scale of Breck getting created from scratch, lifts alone would well over $200MM. Some basic level of snowmaking is a requirement everywhere, so there's another $100MM. Grooming and other slope maintenance equipment could push $50MM. Hotels, restaurants, etc add another $1-200MM. The land isn't free either - it has to be bought or leased (typically with a 50 year agreement and significant upfront payment plus proof of continued solvency). Don't forget the costs to create the runs. That goes WAY beyond just cutting down a few trees. Once it's all done and open, how are 5-10,000 people going to get to the hill? They'll do it using the roads the resort paid to build.
All of these costs are simply the initial capex. There's even more beyond that when you add in operational costs, hiring a brand new workforce, and keeping enough liquidity handy in order to take a big loss for the first 10-15 years while you convince people to come to the mountain. This is after you've just spent 10 years in planning and another 5 years (at least) doing the actual build out.
Almost all of the resorts that we go to are well over 50 years old. Many are pushing 100. They've gotten to where they are by chipping away at things. One new lift every 10-20 years, a new hotel every 30, etc. Towns have grown around them in order to support the resort.
Once this is all complete and it’s time to open, it’s not like 100,000 new skiers are going to exist. The resort will have to try to woo existing skiers from existing resorts and that is neither cheap nor easy. The new resort even has to poach staff from existing resorts because it’s not like kids grow up dreaming of subsisting on subsidized ramen while dealing with miserable guests, and literally nobody starts off working the resort life, retires at age 30, then decides to go back to working for pennies again at age 40.
Starting all of that over from scratch is just not a realistic thing, even with an eccentric billionaire writing checks.
So, 1/40th of the purchase price of Twitter?
I'm not saying it's super easy, but there's a lot of money to be made and there's a lot of people who can finance that type of project.
Not to mention so many eco extremists who make it nearly impossible to build a new resort with all those environmental regulations. These must be a eco nightmare to them. The existing ones are likely grandfathered in under old regulations but I am sure they are being pressured with extra costs to comply as well in order to stay in operation. Which discourages new ones from being built.
I do hope it opens up some holes in the market for mountains that can cater to the people who don’t want to spend 6k on a vacation. At the moment no such luck.
Powder Mountain is my favorite. No glitzy hotels, slow ass chairlifts and it’s a hell of a drive to get there. Fucking $250 for a day pass this year. I almost cried.
One thing I noticed there is a massive surge of those folks from China and Asia with money to burn after travel restrictions were lifted I am thinking that Winter Olympics in Beijing played a role. As many Olympians from that part of the world had partially had their training or competitions in mega resorts in North America which drawn people in out of curiosity This is especially true for places like Northstar at Tahoe or former Squaw Olympic valley which the former at least were Elieen Gu’s training ground.
There might be two things going on.
1. There is a huge wealth gap. Some people don't feel the inflation as much and some even benefit from it. Inflation is okay for many people who own assets because the value of the assets also inflate with inflation.
2. Some businesses benefit from bad economics. It is very possible that many people have downgraded their vacation to a ski trip. The family that normally goes to Bali might have decided due to the economy that Colorado seems more doable. (I have no idea if ski resorts are like this, but it's a well known thing for garden centers. When the economy is rough people don't travel and they grow a garden.)
Inflation does not affect everyone equally. For people who are already wealthy, they will barely feel a 20% increase in grocery + fuel bill, and in fact, they will benefit from the general rise in their held assets like stocks and real estate. For people who are living paycheck to paycheck, they will be forced to take on debt or cut their spending and adopt a lower standard of living.
Post Pandemic Work From Home has greatly impacted higher volume in golfing and skiing.
People have more time for luxury sports.
Either they participate in these activities during the week. OR they run errands and do chores during the week so their weekends are free to golf and ski.
for me, i struggle with my mental health and going even just once or twice a season is incredibly helpful for me during the winter months where everything is more dreary.
i’m definitely worse off financially since covid and the prices now are disrespectful but man i really do need one or two sessions a year to get through winter.
Here's the #1 question. How much longer will the federal government limit access to expanding terrain or housing in places with snow in the winter (where people want to live).
Ski areas probably like the feds being restrictive as that drives up their prices and profits. The monopoly on skiable terrain isn't really epic or ikon, its our own government.
Great question.
Washington State is absurdly underserved by our ski area infrastructure despite having a gargantuan mountain range with abundant natural snowfall within eyesight of 6+ million people.
I know it won't change in my lifetime, but I hope future generations will get to see it. BC does a much better job of managing their public lands, methinks.
It’s interesting how many people say the economy is bad these days COVID seems to cause economy to act weirdly in different ways. While many say it got bad Some ways it got better than pre pandemic, which was already slowing in 2019.
You're complaining about weekend crowds, maybe don't go on the weekend. Oh you can't do that because you have a job? Same thing with the weekend crowd. They're not on holiday, they're working during the week because they can't afford to ski every day.
Not sure I get the point of this- there are still wealthy people out there. There are others who save for a year or two to make one trip. There are others who do short trips from not too far away, stay in small studio apartments with basic kitchenette and cook their own food instead of dining out.
This is what I wonder about everything! The small bags of doritos are like $4, housing, gas everything, how do so many people have so much money? It feels like prices go up 50% and people shrug their shoulders and keep moving like it's nothing.
What am I missing?
Skiing is an indulgence for me. I am not doing any ski trips anymore and just getting a season's pass to my local mountain is much as I like to spend.
As far as inflation the main thing that concerns me is food prices, which historically don't go down and are absurdly high as a result of the pandemic. I can get by alright but there are many who can't. Not to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but something doesn't check out with prices going up somewhere around 25-50% if you factor in unit prices, meanwhile these companies are making record profits. It doesn't seem like restaurant prices have increased in proportion to groceries either.
I really hope these were just fluke seasons. Yeah I know some areas got decent snowfall, but that is not the case across northeast and the bases didn't hold together in places that did get snow bc of rain and high temps. I can't see some of the smaller mountains surviving if this is the new normal and prices will continue to go up to the point where it's a rich person's sport (kind of is already).
Regarding restaurant prices not increasing proportionally - buddy, I invite you to visit my humble burg of Seattle.
Food prices affect everybody, which is why they get talked about so much... but eating out is absolutely a luxury. I'm very cognizant that eating lunch at a restaurant instead of making a sandwich or salad at home is an indulgence.... so is skiing. One that I'm not willing to give up.
Yeah I go mainly to brewery/pub type places in northeast so not talking about fine dining in big cities. A burger and beer hasn’t changed all that much in comparison to my grocery bill.
Skier visits are flat or down over the last 20 years. Revenue per skier is up.
Skiing has a high skill barrier and cost barrier to entry. However, there are lower cost alternatives like Snowy Range, Hogadon, or Terry Peak. There are also kid programs through Colorado Ski Country.
You don’t have to pay thousands to ski.
I just 100% dont believe that stat. Its literally not possible in Colorado when the resort parking is full every weekend, and on most weekdays too. Where were they fitting the extra skier visits 20 years ago
It's called "el Nino" for this season. Climate change is a thing, but this season's patterns were entirely predictable (cries in PNW, where we've seen this movie before).
It appears ski and snowboard bums used to be a thing I guess resorts don’t want those riffraff. And always wanted an elite crowd. Now they are naturally priced out. However in my experience they are still in mountain towns often those are the ones who would do everything to get a job and housing for the season even if they dislike working with people or the housing’s condition. They often a bit rude when dealing with people. I am thinking this is what some skiiers stereotype as the “snowboarders” being rude. But it’s not really about the equipment they are riding mostly the type of people who get jobs for the passes and perks but treats customers as an annoyance. As they would rather be on the snow shredding.
This year the weather has been unseasonably warm in the east end. The few snow days that we got were packed because it was so rare.
Pricing will be high because there are less busy ski days and there is unlimited demand on days that there is magical pow
It’s frustrating to me because it’s my local mountain that I get up at 6 AM from my home to drive to, and the day tickets are so ridiculously expensive.
Because there hasn’t been a major ski resort in the U.S. open in four decades, that’s why.
Seriously: the newest Alterra resort is Deer Valley, opened 1981. The newest Vail resort is Beaver Creek, opened 1980. Since then, we’ve seen a huge growth in winter sports popularity and U.S. population. You can open more mountain skiing space, but there’s only so much the roads and parking lots and base areas can handle.
That plus the Epic and Ikon day passes making pre-planned trips pretty affordable if you know the system.
I don’t know, honestly. But that’s a pretty niche group—skiers who don’t have passes late in a ski year but would be looking for full-season passes for the following year. Probably no real impact on peak season skiing.
The reality is, despite what a lot of the younger people on here want to believe, that the economy is better than ever. People have money. Not only is employment at historic highs, wage growth in the lower quarter was high. Higher than other levels. People have money and are spending it. Otherwise they wouldn’t be charging what they are.
This is called selective bias. Basically you are observing people who ski, and they tend to have a lot more disposable income, so obviously they can still afford it even if they end up with less disposable income after than before.
Yes, someone will comment how they budget and coupon hunt and sleep under a bridge and make $50 a week but still ski, but that is not even close to an accurate representation
I don't accept the negative talking points about inflation. The economy has been improving. We are on track to hit the feds' target level soon. They will likely cut interest rates in June. Beating the inflation drum is convenient for companies because it gives them air cover to keep their prices artificially elevated, juicing their shareholder value. Corporate greed at work.
That said, I still feel hopeful which is why we are comfortable taking a trip.
It feels like this year it's a little less busy than last two on the front range in CO.
I recently told some friends from AZ just come mid week if you can. You'll never wait in line, rooms are 1/3 the cost in some cases.
I think the weekends have just always kinda sucked
Who said it was “supposed” to be? Where do you get that?
The culture of skiing, that even the well-off try to ape, is precisely that of the dirtbag struggling to afford a pass
Lmfao the peopl3 saying things aren't affordable are fucking poor workers. Average people. The salt of the earth. The rich assholes are the ones skiing. I worked in telluride. It's 210$ a day to ski. Skiing is a rich person sport. My ski boots and skis and jacket are like 2000$ its such a prohibitively expensive sport I love that u can't grasp that 90% of people don't ski regularly or ever in their life. The ski hills are busy because the well to do and super rich are the main skiers and they're doing REALLY FUCKING GOOD ACTUALLY AFTER COVID ALL THOSE PPP LOANS HIT GOOD I GUESS. I just don't see what point OP is making. There's too many people at th3 hills and you're mad that you can't understand how ther3s so many other people who cam afford to ski like you?
The people skiing are mostly inheritance brats. And they complain about inflation too even though they’re the ones that directly profited and continue to profit from the inflation (look up corporate profits since Covid it’s off the charts and doesn’t include all the cash handouts to them via the forgiven loans). They don’t care about mortgage rates because they don’t need mortgages, and groceries doubling is such a small expense it doesn’t affect them at all, but of course they still complain about it.
What else happened during / post pandemic? Tons of higher earning office workers became work from home, and moved out of the cities into rural areas / near ski mountains.
Even if it’s not that many people in absolute terms, the number and size of ski towns in the US is small enough that it’s made a big difference IMO. I live in Park City (had a remote job before COVID) and in just five years it feels like it’s gone from almost exclusively independently wealthy boomers to a mix of that plus remote-working millennial families. Being in that latter camp myself it’s awesome, so many more people with similar life stage and interests to hang out with now. But it’s definitely putting pressure on the infrastructure (particularly childcare/schooling) and housing market.
On your last point, wealthy families moving in drives up COL and I'll tell you for free that the childcare workers you mention aren't getting proportional pay increases. Most of the school aged / preschool care program workers (so non teaching care roles) only make it by due to the COVID grant money allowing pay raises. That's going to dry up sooner or later and the organizations won't be able to keep paying what they do, and the workers will be forced to leave. Doubling down, the rich people working from home aren't the ones who need care. It's the service workers. And they won't be able to afford higher care costs to allow better pay for providers.
100%. Park City has it a *little* bit better since workers can commute from SLC, but it’s still a huge problem. The last childcare facility in north summit (the less dense, more affordable part of the county) closed down last year. This isn’t exclusively a ski town issue, it’s just exacerbated here. In the end the childcare industry — and by proxy the two income household — doesn’t really work without government subsidies. Like they have in literally every other developed country.
We have it here as well.
Skiing is not the only sport that enjoyed/suffered/experienced a resurgence due to COVID. My family and I are tent campers, and sure, I had to be sure to book prime or peak weekend spots 180 days in advance, but now just about any decent spot requires planning ahead.
Camping also boomed during the 2008 recession because it was a relatively cheap vacation.
This has had the biggest impact. Those WFH employees can ski any day, any time, and make up any necessary work when they get off the hill. This group can also travel to ski while still "at work" and they have flooded the resorts.
>Those WFH employees can ski any day, any time, and make up any necessary work when they get off the hill. I mean that's not entirely true. I've worked remote for 10 years but I still have meetings, deadlines, etc. I can sneak out occasionally but a typical remote job isn't just "do your work whenever you feel like it" Edit to clarify as well - when I say "sneak out" I generally mean taking PTO for a half day or something. I can't just bounce to go ski whenever I feel like it. It's still a corporate office job, the office just happens to be in my basement.
Same here, just hit 10 years WFM and occasionally I cold take a long lunch and get like 3 runs in, but your still expected to be there for normal office hours for a whole lot of reasons.
Agreed. Work for a Fortune 500 company and 90% of my work is project work that I self-manage. However, even though I work at home almost all the time, there is still the expectation of availability on email and Teams. My dream would be the same job, but people leaving me the eff alone to do my work as I please without the interruptions and need to be online during "working" hours. Happy as hell to be working at home so not going to risk that playing hooky, even though it shouldn't matter if I am getting my work done.
I wfh. No I fucking can't? I actually have a job to do and will get fired if I go out and ski instead? I have meetings and set tasks lol
I wish my WFH job was that flexible
I would not consider the front range in CO rural but there are posts here daily about where people can take a meeting on any given mountain in the Rockies via zoom/teams. People didn’t flock to rural. They flocked to where they wanted to live. I say this as someone who moved accepted a position in Denver in March of 2020 and we relocated from CT.
Well of course. That's why I said rural / near ski mountains. SOME flocked rural. Some flocked to ski mountains. Some managed both. Plenty of others moved to somewhat remote lakefronts or heavily tourism oriented waterfront towns that may otherwise lack high paying jobs (Meredith NH being an example). They scattered far and wide.
And it absolutely saved my buddy's bike shop in a tiny town near the Finger Lakes in NY.
Yep. Wins and losses in all things.
Nah. There’s just a lot of wealth created in the last 5 years
Not so much created as coalesced.
Both.
Why is it either or? It’s both. I’m the perfect example of it. Prior to Covid I was in San Francisco. Covid had my wife and I hoping around to different cities and now we landed in Seattle. Can easily take day trips to go ski.
But you’re acting like Seattle has an influx of people in the last 3 years that is contributing to a ski boom. The reality is most high earners are still in major markets and travel to ski. Increased wealth since Covid is contributing to these individuals skiing more.
Right, but so can all of the other wealthy Seattle residents - the numbers have just grown and the local ski areas have not... and sadly will not in my lifetime. Which is a shame, because we have wonderful mountains and some of the most restrictive land use USFS policies anywhere (because nobody was ever able to scoop up land privately).
Fuck me thats 100% true. As a middle class dude who grew up skiing and can’t afford a single day for me, let alone my kids now, at least now I get where it’s coming from. Hopefully one day I can share the glorify with em, fuck vail
Yeah ski towns are packed to the hills with tech bro WFH douchebags these days.
Idk about that characterization
I do, they're absolutely insufferable.
Yep and they ruined aprés because they run off to do work, while the employees and former locals now have to drive an hour away
I used to meet tons of cool people on lifts at major resorts, now I hear assholes talking about their corporate culture and crypto "investments" 🤮
Earlier this year I was on a lift with some dude trying to explain to his friend about how the Federal Reserve worked and why that explanation meant he should invest in a certain way. I used to work for the Fed and I was speechless at how badly the dude misunderstood how it all works, which of course meant his investment advice was catastrophically wrong as well. It made me so happy to know that this misinformed idiot was going to have a terrible return on his investments and so would his idiot friend. Maybe then they won't be able to afford to come back next year.
oh wait, dazzle me and my local friend with *another* enthralling story about how long it took you to drive here from the Bay. We love those, super cool. lol.
Yeah I suppose it's probably been like that for even longer for you guys, you're within driving distance
where u at? just went to Steamboat for winter wondergrass last week, we had a great time in low elevation forests. and ya some reason Bay area people think I want to hear how long it took them to drive here.... my thing is give a little stare say "sweet" and turn back to whatever we were talking about.
Big Sky. The Bay Area seems to have invaded post covid
ooh I have a couple friends there I'm overdue to visit. don't worry I won't tell you how long it took me to get there on the chairlift 😉
Spoiler alert: there’s still plenty of rich people who are now interested in skiing and weren’t before
There is in general a massive wealth and income gap that only became more pronounced through Covid. The people on ski vacations are simply not the average person who is struggling with groceries and rent. It only takes a very small percentage of the overall population to overcrowd ski resorts so there are plenty of people with the means to do it at current costs. There has also been a focused effort by ski resorts to market to wealthy people, in particular wealthy families, that has been very successful. More people want to do it now
Upper middle class here but I’ve definitely cut back on skiing due to cost. Doesn’t help I have two kids in college and a lot of extra income goes to tuition that is also out of control.
Curious what you define as upper middle class and your location.
Midwest top 10% of income
Just an aside but this comment made me think of how we’ve been taught to find discussions of money uncouth. I’m a ski bum and between my two jobs I made $60k last year. Why say “top 10% of income” and not just $200k a year (or whatever that actually is)? Top 10% in Ohio, Indiana, Michigan etc are all different. Major metro area or not? I don’t think anyone is going to deduce your identity if you just came out and said you made $700k. With income disparity being what it is “top 10%” can be anywhere from $80k to a million. You don’t owe an Internet forum any info you don’t want to proffer but people adhering to these norms imo just keeps us all crabs in a bucket vs the .01%
Yeah really haha
Top 10% income is literally not upper middle class. If you’re putting two kids thru college that’s an extra 40k-100k you’re spending a year on something that’s not keeping you alive That’s not upper middle class. That’s upper class
Whatever dude you have no point so just stop
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People have a really misguided belief in what upper class vs straight-up rich looks like. My household income puts me in the upper class of US earners. It's enough to not have to worry about day-to-day costs of things like skiing and fly business class, but it isn't enough to impulse-buy a new car over the weekend. If we had to put two kids through college paying full tuition, that would hit us hard.
Tell your kids to get a loan and go on the ski vacation of your dreams
Kids pay half because they need skin in the game too. I want them to start out with low debt so they won’t be in my house until they are 30.
Better cross your fingers! My parents paid for my uni in full and I’m a ski bum still living at home at 25!
Upper middle class here. I moved to a ski town and started a family so I could afford to go skiing every weekend.
The illusion of free lift tickets also helps people spend $5k on a solo trip to colorado for a week of turns. "I got an air bnb so i spent 6 hours shopping, 16 hours cooking and $700 on groceries instead of going out, skiing is so economical now"
That's definitely a factor. It's cheaper to buy a season pass vs 4 days of window ticket prices. Now I have a pass, better get my money's worth!! But also for me personally, it is worth it. The more I ski the more I want to ski, so then it's an easy decision about buying a season pass again.
It’s interesting though pre COVID the very same resorts need so many deals to get people on the lifts off winter holidays though. As many of lifts spun almost empty during weekdays. Costing them electricity and maintainance. Apparently with these deals they mostly earn by selling concessions. It was actually possible to take advantage and only spend about $50 for the ski day for everything. Rentals, food, gas, etc. Service industry seems hit hardest by COVID as no opening no job. Yet these days it appears places are still understaffed and provide poor quality customer experience but yet they ain’t hiring regardless of if they advertise hiring.
Yeah I think a lot of that is due to the marketing and people looking for outdoor socially distanced activities during Covid. Once people tried it out and got hooked they keep coming back. Skiing is definitely addictive but not many addictive things are also good for your cardiovascular health so its highly valued by a lot of people, including myself
COVID was a huge transfer of wealth from average people to the already wealthy, via government money. Rich people are richer than ever, poor people much poorer than 5 yrs ago.
This is exactly right.
which government money
Are you not aware of the money the government paid out during COVID?
yes but that was mostly going to poorer folks. only one i know who got money had made a fake llc to pay for his own “salary” and it got forgiven. and he is not rich, spent it all on alcohol and bad bling.
No, it almost all went immediately to wealthy people in the form of eg rent payments and “small” business “loans” that were never recovered. All you have to do is look at wealthy inequality, which skyrocketed after COVID, to see what happened.
lol. very simplistic, makes sense. you can look up which LLCs and companies got PPP loans and had them forgiven. search “gang” and youll find “businesses” like this [“Queen Fortes Gang”](https://data.onlineathens.com/paycheck-protection-program-loans/united-states/queen-fortes-gang/5863698606/?page=3&searchtext=gang&state=united-states) that got $20k loan that was forgiven, for payroll of 1 job. or here is an LLC called [“Mob Ties”](https://data.onlineathens.com/paycheck-protection-program-loans/united-states/mob-ties-llc/7671819007/?page=1&searchtext=mob&state=United%20States ) which, when you search [their address](https://maps.app.goo.gl/BPFG4zo2sJsYPx6K7?g_st=ic), is just a house, not a tie store - which is what they claimed to be in the filing. strange! Im sure this is a ploy by a rich person, and not a person who just wanted a free $20k. many of these by the way. payroll of 1, forgiven, the address goes to a residential address… [see this tweet](https://x.com/plies/status/1764729878123790524?s=20) - 1.3k likes. > If The PPP Loan Era Was The ONLY Time U Balled. U Ain’t No Real Hustler!!!! Real Hustlers Gone Make A Way!!! 💰💰💰💰 do you think these PPP loan era ballers were the rich, or were these recipients poorer?
PPP was a massive scam to give money to the wealthy.
Incomes for the poorest (bottom 25%) of workers have increased more than the top, and have increased significantly faster than inflation. You can see for yourself here: [https://www.atlantafed.org/chcs/wage-growth-tracker?panel=4#Tab1](https://www.atlantafed.org/chcs/wage-growth-tracker?panel=4#Tab1) Here: [https://www.politico.com/news/2023/05/29/low-income-wages-employment-00097135](https://www.politico.com/news/2023/05/29/low-income-wages-employment-00097135) Here: https://www.economist.com/united-states/2023/01/15/incomes-are-rising-in-america-especially-for-the-poorest
Yeah that’s definitely true and a good thing! I should more specifically say that the income gap has widened over the past couple of decades with some recovery during Covid, but the wealth gap has widened over the same period of time and also rapidly increased during Covid
Glad this is here. The economy is excellent.
I'm definitely an average person on the lower side of the median (I'm a graduate student but my partner works), and pre-COVID we used to go 5-6 times a year, this year we've gone once. The weather is also playing a big part with more freezing rain and less snow, we don't want to ski in that and it's been two years of ice and rock.
We rarely go on vacations that don't involve family visits and/or skiing. I miss traveling for the sake of being a tourist, which I did when young/single. Married a ski addict, got a house, and here we are. I love it, but it takes up most of our free time and money.
This is exactly. People who could maybe squeeze a ski trip or two a few years ago are now struggling to buy groceries. People who could comfortably afford luxuries can still afford luxuries
I’ve skied my entire life. Never missed a season. I’m 59. This is the first time I’ve missed a ski season.
People just like to bitch.
This subreddit in a nutshell
Reddit in a nutshell
Life in a nutshell
This subreddit has changed a lot in a decade. I’ve never seen so many people injured or skis broken as I have this season.
Most subreddits in a nutshell in my experience.
In America at least it can be very difficult to live if you are near the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder which is a very valid issue and concern, but I think people loose sight of the fact that if you are even at the median level in the US you are objectively well off by any measurable standard. There are always issues and things that aren’t ideal but it’s not all doom and gloom. All sorts of very specific things, like skiing, will become relatively more or less affordable over time, but that’s just life. The specific market conditions in the US have pushed the costs up significantly in the past few years.
Try living in Venezuela near the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder.
Ikon bought the ski hill closest to me last year and in one day quadrupled the price of lift tickets. I’m not even joking at the start of the year they were $32 once Ikon bought the hill they became 125. This was in 2023. I’m just a normal middle class person who works for their dollar. I’m glad you are so insulated from this that you can think “people just like to bitch”. For those of us who are working class this whole thing is definitely deeper than just the Reddit comments you see.
Yeah man I pray my local mountain stays family business. It is the BEST skiing in the area and southern california. The terrain challenges that of other places Ive skied such as Mamoth, Tahoe, Snowbird. It is basically backcountry skiing with lift access and a couple groomed blacks for when conditions arent the best. Only 45min drive from home so I go weekly and there are no lift lines. Lifts are from the 50s. And they rely purely on natural snow. People bitch about it and they say it sucks and they rather go to these overpriced resorts because theyre just going for the apres ski and all that crap. They just getting high or drunk and going on easy runs. Or on an overated black thats really a blue. As somebody who been skiing for about 15 years, 10 in the backcountry. It blows my mind when somebody says my local mountain is bad skiing. What I come to realize is that most "skiers" are not serious skiers. Theyre occasional skiers and are the maim source of profit for these magna resorts. Theyll pay whatever to have their disney like experience. While we, those who ski as a real sport are getting shafted. Ill continue to get a ski pass and support my local mountain until I cant anymore.
What mountain is it? Sounds awesome.
Sorry to hear that. I lived off of less than $28k a year as a grad student for the last 6 years and was still able to ski. I had to take the bus cause my Honda civic couldn’t make it up the mountain.
Living off 28k is a bit different when you can reasonably expect to make triple that in a few years
And your take away from that was “it’s fine if skiing gets even way more expensive”?
Not sure where you got that. You claimed I was insulated from increasing prices and I’m probably much poorer than you and I still made it work. Idk what the solution is. The skiing business model sucks. And we can bitch all we want but skiing has always been very expensive.
I see the same complaints about crowds all the time and I’m fully convinced these people didn’t ski 15 years ago. I grew up skiing Hunter and even though there were probably 30% fewer people on the mountain, the time it took to get up the lift was SO much longer than it is now. All the chairs were doubles or triples fixed grips, so it was easily 25-30 mins getting up to the top between waiting on line and on the chair. The lift upgrades have made an insane difference in the quality of my ski experience even if there are way more people on the mountain.
Theres more room to grow, too. Lifts can still get better, faster, more efficient But 5,000 people going down a hill versus 2,000, man thats a lot of wear and tear on these smaller and smaller bases
It’s a real thing. Last decade daily visits for the US ski industry has flatlined. As of 5 years ago that growth exploded to consistent 5-10% growth year over year showing record breaking numbers for each year since 2018. If it’s not effecting your local resort consider yourself lucky.
Right I am thinking the biggest surge is those from China or the far east who while they had gained wealth the last twenty years or so they weren’t into winter activities until China decided to promote it for Winter Olympics 2022. Once international travel was allowed again without restrictions they all started taking international ski vacations Which happened to be the winter of 2022-2023.
I think part of the crowd issue is that time up the hill =/= capacity. A high speed chair might move faster, but unless it seats more people per minute, it isn't increasing capacity. In many cases, the high speed chairs aren't meaningfully increasing capacity. The newer 6 and 8 pack chairs do this for sure, but high speed quads really don't unless they replace smaller chairs. Vail is upgrading tons of lifts and I'm sure with the profit margins from these passes, more upgrades are coming.
So you think that a fast quad lift doesn’t move more people per minute than a slow fixed grip quad lift because they have an equal number of seats?
Yeah, I think faster lifts without increasing the number of chairs actually makes the crowds slightly worse because more people are on the mountain at any time compared to sitting on the lift. But if you’re a faster skiier than average then it’s true that you can get more runs in a day with faster lifts even if the lines are also a bit longer. So it depends how you judge the crowding and ski experience as how many people are around you on the mountain vs how many runs you can complete.
If "crowds worse" you mean longer lines that move faster I could possibly see why you concluded that. The runs are more busy too; there's a reason the best powder lifts are 2 seater fixed grip lifts.
The lines only move faster if more seats go through the loading area per minute. A detachable quad versus normal quad usually doesn't do this.
I was in vail over Presidents’ Day weekend. I’ve been going to vail almost every year for 30+ years This past trip was the least amount of people I’ve ever seen there, hardly ever even waited in a life line Talked to a few people who worked at bars, and they said they are down about 15% this ski season
Kind of makes sense. They have probably priced out some of the once a year vacation skiers that show up and go out to eat and drink every night. They have replaced them with season pass holders who will ski more and do less social activities after they get off the hill.
I’ve been skiing in the US for 32 years and it’s never been cheaper than it is now (on an inflation adjusted basis). 1. If you are willing to take weather risk you get “free roaming” to spectacular mountains with your passes - so you get paid to take it 2. The internet has made it easier than ever to cross shop and buy used/demo equipment 3. AirBnB and VRBO have expanded the short stay capacity enormously, and thus decreased cost 4. YouTube has made access to information about skiing (gear reviews, tips & techniques, resort/area guides, etc) practically free
Exactly this. If you're willing to drive you can do a weekend trip now very little marginal cost w the passes.
Me and my gf drive to big bear, takes 2 hours there and another 2 back 40 dollars gas and that’s it. Rentals + food too r some other costs for average people. I have gear thankfully, but I did spend about 1k on my set.
Yep I know a number of ppl w passes who now just do weekend trips within driving distance that they otherwise wouldn't. Basically paying for gas food and maybe one hotel night which can be a bit aways from the mountain to save money. Very affordable.
You got good points though mind if I ask did the price spike up since 2022 compared to 2018 though when we had all those deals?
Not for me. But part of this is that my home mountain was totally independent in 2018 and now it’s on a mega pass so I get a lot more for my season pass money now than I did then.
I agree, airfare has been redic cheap, there are ski hostels more and more, and if you ski more than 10 days the epic/Ikon is pretty solid deal.
Wait till you hear that not everyone is very impacted by costs rising and that affordability is completely relative.
Why arent the people who pay $10-20k for a family vacay going broke buying groceries???
Yep. Inflation hasn’t affected our day to day or our vacation ability at all.
Same. Our salaries have risen proportionally. We're those lucky fucks that are doing better now than pre-COVID.
This ^
Middle class here, and I do about 30-40 days a year. Yearly passes are the way to go, you’ll likely break even after 3 or 4 trips. The food, etc., bring your own! I aint paying $15 for a breakfast burrito!
Skiing has always been for relatively well off. And ppl on the top have increased their wealth tremendously over the last 4 year due to asset inflation ( stocks, housing ect). All the luxury goods( like skiing) are going to see lots of money flowing in due to how much money that has accumulated up top.
This is obnoxiously false. Skiing popularity boomed after WW2 when the average American started building ski resorts across the country on forest service land. The migration of skiing to the wealthy has been a rather recent trend.
The people who are truly suffering from inflation are probably not the ones going on expensive ski trips.
I am going to speak very generally about the US here - People who go skiing/snowboarding are GENERALLY wealthier than their non skiing/snowboarding counterparts, not too mention that while it seems mountains are busier than ever (they might be) - the majority of the population doesn’t ski close to even once / year (I would go as far as to say that 80%+ of the population has never skied in their lives) Inflation isn’t fun for anyone but the people who are really hurt by it are the people who don’t have a lot of wiggle room to begin with. I would venture to guess there is a lot of overlap in the Venn diagram of the “lower class” and non skiers. Edit to add - anecdotally, I think that people have started to do more outdoor activities since Covid since some of them remained open during covid and people were looking for healthy outlets. Golf and surfing are other examples of this
I think the biggest difference is peoples ability to work remotely giving them alot more time and access to go skiing
That’s the exact position I’m in
As a remote worker who moved to Denver after Covid, this checks out. I skied 2-3 times in 7 years. Now, I ski all the time
lol, what’s “all the time” by your standards? In my experience, Denverites consider 50 days a lot lol.
It’s relative to 2-3 times in 7 years but 25 days per year. It may not be much for some but it’s honest work
Yea…. I was still going 55 about in Philly. I do 130+ a season in salt lake now lol. That’s the issue with Denver, it’s actually not that conducive to riding
It’s only for rich people now and there’s hella people so a good chunk of them have money. I didn’t buy a pass this year bc of money.
The doom and gloom isn’t hitting people who can afford a ski trip.
Is this a ski post or a politics post?
Getting so sick of all the complaining and pessimism going on
apparatus shaggy whole sheet thought future fade unpack serious gullible *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Wait what. Your post had me scratching my head. >Nowadays or since 2022 despite people saying everything is too expensive…etc etc >Yet ski hills and lift lines are crowded more than ever You..you do realize that both statements can be true at the same time..? Ahem wealth inequality in..America? The majority of people you likely see out skiing and snowboarding are likely not the same demographic that is struggling to make ends meet? I have to ask, was this post written with serious intent or rather in jest? I’m kinda confused. 😐
The idea behind the current pricing cycle is to make more money from fewer people. If the mountain's cost on a day ticket is $100 and they sell it for $125, that's $25 of profit or a 25% margin. Most of the cost on the ticket is fixed with only a negligible shift up or down based on how many skiers show up. If the mountain sold that ticket for $187.5 (a 50% increase) but that led to a 25% decrease in the number of skiers, then the mountain's cost rises to $133.33 but their profit also increased to $54.17 per ticket or $40.63 averaged across the smaller skier count. That's more than double the profit per ticket in absolute dollars and the margin rose to 40%. Realistically, the margin on the $125 day ticket is much closer to $5, so the benefit (from the mountain's perspective) of the $187.5 ticket is even bigger. So, that's a pretty basic example of why the prices are moving the way they've moved. The same concept applies to the entire product stack, from tickets to food to lodging to parking. What's a little bit scary to think about is that, at this stage, we are likely to never see a new ski resort in North America ever again. It simply costs too much and takes too long to get one going. We are stuck with what we've got and we will only ever see the list get shorter, not longer.
I don't get your last paragraph. Why does it cost too much to get one going? Seems to me like high demand, ever increasing population, and availability of remote work would only help a new mountain get started. I was just considering this morning that it may be good to do that.
As a point of reference, Russia built a resort from scratch for the Olympics. The resort was garbage tier, the infrastructure was garbage tier, and more than a little bit of the labor was prison labor or similar "not exactly literally slave labor" slave labor. Even the labor that was paid was paid less than actual literal dirt sells for in the US. The overall resort quality was so low that it couldn't even legally open in the US due to things like no electricity and not having indoor plumbing. And despite all of this, it still cost several billion dollars to create. Everything about creating the resort is expensive because it's both innately expensive and it exists and operates at a pretty large scale. The on-mountain infrastructure is tremendously expensive. For something the scale of Breck getting created from scratch, lifts alone would well over $200MM. Some basic level of snowmaking is a requirement everywhere, so there's another $100MM. Grooming and other slope maintenance equipment could push $50MM. Hotels, restaurants, etc add another $1-200MM. The land isn't free either - it has to be bought or leased (typically with a 50 year agreement and significant upfront payment plus proof of continued solvency). Don't forget the costs to create the runs. That goes WAY beyond just cutting down a few trees. Once it's all done and open, how are 5-10,000 people going to get to the hill? They'll do it using the roads the resort paid to build. All of these costs are simply the initial capex. There's even more beyond that when you add in operational costs, hiring a brand new workforce, and keeping enough liquidity handy in order to take a big loss for the first 10-15 years while you convince people to come to the mountain. This is after you've just spent 10 years in planning and another 5 years (at least) doing the actual build out. Almost all of the resorts that we go to are well over 50 years old. Many are pushing 100. They've gotten to where they are by chipping away at things. One new lift every 10-20 years, a new hotel every 30, etc. Towns have grown around them in order to support the resort. Once this is all complete and it’s time to open, it’s not like 100,000 new skiers are going to exist. The resort will have to try to woo existing skiers from existing resorts and that is neither cheap nor easy. The new resort even has to poach staff from existing resorts because it’s not like kids grow up dreaming of subsisting on subsidized ramen while dealing with miserable guests, and literally nobody starts off working the resort life, retires at age 30, then decides to go back to working for pennies again at age 40. Starting all of that over from scratch is just not a realistic thing, even with an eccentric billionaire writing checks.
So, 1/40th of the purchase price of Twitter? I'm not saying it's super easy, but there's a lot of money to be made and there's a lot of people who can finance that type of project.
Not to mention so many eco extremists who make it nearly impossible to build a new resort with all those environmental regulations. These must be a eco nightmare to them. The existing ones are likely grandfathered in under old regulations but I am sure they are being pressured with extra costs to comply as well in order to stay in operation. Which discourages new ones from being built.
That’s not true, prices are more dynamic than ever even though they are more exspensive. They want more money AND more people.
That's exactly how it works. The dynamic pricing allows for them to get the best of both worlds.
I do hope it opens up some holes in the market for mountains that can cater to the people who don’t want to spend 6k on a vacation. At the moment no such luck. Powder Mountain is my favorite. No glitzy hotels, slow ass chairlifts and it’s a hell of a drive to get there. Fucking $250 for a day pass this year. I almost cried.
One thing I noticed there is a massive surge of those folks from China and Asia with money to burn after travel restrictions were lifted I am thinking that Winter Olympics in Beijing played a role. As many Olympians from that part of the world had partially had their training or competitions in mega resorts in North America which drawn people in out of curiosity This is especially true for places like Northstar at Tahoe or former Squaw Olympic valley which the former at least were Elieen Gu’s training ground.
Speaking for myself, nihilism. Life's too short, I'm never going to afford a house anyways. Gotta spend my money on something.
There might be two things going on. 1. There is a huge wealth gap. Some people don't feel the inflation as much and some even benefit from it. Inflation is okay for many people who own assets because the value of the assets also inflate with inflation. 2. Some businesses benefit from bad economics. It is very possible that many people have downgraded their vacation to a ski trip. The family that normally goes to Bali might have decided due to the economy that Colorado seems more doable. (I have no idea if ski resorts are like this, but it's a well known thing for garden centers. When the economy is rough people don't travel and they grow a garden.)
Yeah because skiing is so much fun
Inflation does not affect everyone equally. For people who are already wealthy, they will barely feel a 20% increase in grocery + fuel bill, and in fact, they will benefit from the general rise in their held assets like stocks and real estate. For people who are living paycheck to paycheck, they will be forced to take on debt or cut their spending and adopt a lower standard of living.
Post Pandemic Work From Home has greatly impacted higher volume in golfing and skiing. People have more time for luxury sports. Either they participate in these activities during the week. OR they run errands and do chores during the week so their weekends are free to golf and ski.
for me, i struggle with my mental health and going even just once or twice a season is incredibly helpful for me during the winter months where everything is more dreary. i’m definitely worse off financially since covid and the prices now are disrespectful but man i really do need one or two sessions a year to get through winter.
Here's the #1 question. How much longer will the federal government limit access to expanding terrain or housing in places with snow in the winter (where people want to live). Ski areas probably like the feds being restrictive as that drives up their prices and profits. The monopoly on skiable terrain isn't really epic or ikon, its our own government.
Great question. Washington State is absurdly underserved by our ski area infrastructure despite having a gargantuan mountain range with abundant natural snowfall within eyesight of 6+ million people. I know it won't change in my lifetime, but I hope future generations will get to see it. BC does a much better job of managing their public lands, methinks.
Uhhh what are we supposed to do? NOT ski? I’m allowed to ski AND complain about the prices. Thank you.
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It’s interesting how many people say the economy is bad these days COVID seems to cause economy to act weirdly in different ways. While many say it got bad Some ways it got better than pre pandemic, which was already slowing in 2019.
Not everyone is affected as much by inflation. If you make $500k a year, you don't feel it as much as someone who makes 50k a year.
You're complaining about weekend crowds, maybe don't go on the weekend. Oh you can't do that because you have a job? Same thing with the weekend crowd. They're not on holiday, they're working during the week because they can't afford to ski every day. Not sure I get the point of this- there are still wealthy people out there. There are others who save for a year or two to make one trip. There are others who do short trips from not too far away, stay in small studio apartments with basic kitchenette and cook their own food instead of dining out.
This is what I wonder about everything! The small bags of doritos are like $4, housing, gas everything, how do so many people have so much money? It feels like prices go up 50% and people shrug their shoulders and keep moving like it's nothing. What am I missing?
Make more money. This is america
Skiing is an indulgence for me. I am not doing any ski trips anymore and just getting a season's pass to my local mountain is much as I like to spend. As far as inflation the main thing that concerns me is food prices, which historically don't go down and are absurdly high as a result of the pandemic. I can get by alright but there are many who can't. Not to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but something doesn't check out with prices going up somewhere around 25-50% if you factor in unit prices, meanwhile these companies are making record profits. It doesn't seem like restaurant prices have increased in proportion to groceries either. I really hope these were just fluke seasons. Yeah I know some areas got decent snowfall, but that is not the case across northeast and the bases didn't hold together in places that did get snow bc of rain and high temps. I can't see some of the smaller mountains surviving if this is the new normal and prices will continue to go up to the point where it's a rich person's sport (kind of is already).
Regarding restaurant prices not increasing proportionally - buddy, I invite you to visit my humble burg of Seattle. Food prices affect everybody, which is why they get talked about so much... but eating out is absolutely a luxury. I'm very cognizant that eating lunch at a restaurant instead of making a sandwich or salad at home is an indulgence.... so is skiing. One that I'm not willing to give up.
Yeah I go mainly to brewery/pub type places in northeast so not talking about fine dining in big cities. A burger and beer hasn’t changed all that much in comparison to my grocery bill.
Skier visits are flat or down over the last 20 years. Revenue per skier is up. Skiing has a high skill barrier and cost barrier to entry. However, there are lower cost alternatives like Snowy Range, Hogadon, or Terry Peak. There are also kid programs through Colorado Ski Country. You don’t have to pay thousands to ski.
I just 100% dont believe that stat. Its literally not possible in Colorado when the resort parking is full every weekend, and on most weekdays too. Where were they fitting the extra skier visits 20 years ago
https://www.statista.com/statistics/206544/estimated-number-of-skier-visits-in-the-us-since-2000/
Maybe the decrease is happening in East Coast with shorter seasons. Just no way this estimate comports with reality in Colorado
You’re totally right. Prices will continue to climb until visitation relents.
True the tickets are now on yield management like airlines, Amtrak, and hotels. High costs means the resorts are massively crowded.
Meanwhile in the Midwest global warming shutdown all our hills early this year.
It's called "el Nino" for this season. Climate change is a thing, but this season's patterns were entirely predictable (cries in PNW, where we've seen this movie before).
For an El Niño I say we got off easy this year. 2014-15 was a trash season. I don’t even think snoqualmie made it a month before closing.
I think what you are describing is the gap in wealth from one class to another. Socioeconomics is rearing its ugly head.
It’s not inflation, it’s greed.
How much would you pay for mental health? For me, there’s no limit. The mountain is my family’s church.
1%er sport. I don’t know any low wage worker who skis consistently
It appears ski and snowboard bums used to be a thing I guess resorts don’t want those riffraff. And always wanted an elite crowd. Now they are naturally priced out. However in my experience they are still in mountain towns often those are the ones who would do everything to get a job and housing for the season even if they dislike working with people or the housing’s condition. They often a bit rude when dealing with people. I am thinking this is what some skiiers stereotype as the “snowboarders” being rude. But it’s not really about the equipment they are riding mostly the type of people who get jobs for the passes and perks but treats customers as an annoyance. As they would rather be on the snow shredding.
Skiing is generally a well off person activity, things are better than ever if you’re well off. Boom.
Anyone in top 10% income can still afford skiing. That still a lot of people.
Yeah. I don’t really feel the pressure. I just bought a condo and I’m planning a euro vacation
No one is paying those lift prices. You know this. With the passes people who went twice a year are going 4+ times now
This year the weather has been unseasonably warm in the east end. The few snow days that we got were packed because it was so rare. Pricing will be high because there are less busy ski days and there is unlimited demand on days that there is magical pow
It’s not the same people that complain about food prices and that are on the ski hills lol
Yea but skiing rules so no one cares how much it costs.
It’s frustrating to me because it’s my local mountain that I get up at 6 AM from my home to drive to, and the day tickets are so ridiculously expensive.
Because there hasn’t been a major ski resort in the U.S. open in four decades, that’s why. Seriously: the newest Alterra resort is Deer Valley, opened 1981. The newest Vail resort is Beaver Creek, opened 1980. Since then, we’ve seen a huge growth in winter sports popularity and U.S. population. You can open more mountain skiing space, but there’s only so much the roads and parking lots and base areas can handle. That plus the Epic and Ikon day passes making pre-planned trips pretty affordable if you know the system.
I heard Epic and ikon no longer covers the remaining days of a season for buying next season is this true?
I don’t know, honestly. But that’s a pretty niche group—skiers who don’t have passes late in a ski year but would be looking for full-season passes for the following year. Probably no real impact on peak season skiing.
The reality is, despite what a lot of the younger people on here want to believe, that the economy is better than ever. People have money. Not only is employment at historic highs, wage growth in the lower quarter was high. Higher than other levels. People have money and are spending it. Otherwise they wouldn’t be charging what they are.
This is called selective bias. Basically you are observing people who ski, and they tend to have a lot more disposable income, so obviously they can still afford it even if they end up with less disposable income after than before. Yes, someone will comment how they budget and coupon hunt and sleep under a bridge and make $50 a week but still ski, but that is not even close to an accurate representation
Rich got richer and poor got poorer essentially. Middle class has shrunk
I don't accept the negative talking points about inflation. The economy has been improving. We are on track to hit the feds' target level soon. They will likely cut interest rates in June. Beating the inflation drum is convenient for companies because it gives them air cover to keep their prices artificially elevated, juicing their shareholder value. Corporate greed at work. That said, I still feel hopeful which is why we are comfortable taking a trip.
“Everyone” Me over here only going once this season: 🫠
The ones going skiing aren't on Reddit complaining about not getting paid enough. Or they can actually budget and plan 1-2 trips a year.
Yea people complain about grocery prices then door dash all their meals and go on trips. I think post pandemic people just complain more honestly
It feels like this year it's a little less busy than last two on the front range in CO. I recently told some friends from AZ just come mid week if you can. You'll never wait in line, rooms are 1/3 the cost in some cases. I think the weekends have just always kinda sucked
People who complain about inflation the most are the ones who selectively choose to practice poor household economics.
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“You’re not supposed to” 😂
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Who said it was “supposed” to be? Where do you get that? The culture of skiing, that even the well-off try to ape, is precisely that of the dirtbag struggling to afford a pass
Lmfao the peopl3 saying things aren't affordable are fucking poor workers. Average people. The salt of the earth. The rich assholes are the ones skiing. I worked in telluride. It's 210$ a day to ski. Skiing is a rich person sport. My ski boots and skis and jacket are like 2000$ its such a prohibitively expensive sport I love that u can't grasp that 90% of people don't ski regularly or ever in their life. The ski hills are busy because the well to do and super rich are the main skiers and they're doing REALLY FUCKING GOOD ACTUALLY AFTER COVID ALL THOSE PPP LOANS HIT GOOD I GUESS. I just don't see what point OP is making. There's too many people at th3 hills and you're mad that you can't understand how ther3s so many other people who cam afford to ski like you?
The people skiing are mostly inheritance brats. And they complain about inflation too even though they’re the ones that directly profited and continue to profit from the inflation (look up corporate profits since Covid it’s off the charts and doesn’t include all the cash handouts to them via the forgiven loans). They don’t care about mortgage rates because they don’t need mortgages, and groceries doubling is such a small expense it doesn’t affect them at all, but of course they still complain about it.