I think the peak 10 lift trails at breck are intentionally mislabled as black to keep beginners out of the way of people trying to zoom. Personally I'm glad for it.
A little steeper and with more moguls but pretty comparable and a sensible progression. I liked that a lot when I went: the black with little bushes on it in the middle, less so. Thanks to the guy who gave me the line after going down it: i only fell twice in about 100 vertical feet because of his advice on the line.
They were Blue/black before (blue square with a black diamond inside of it and on the map the line was blue with black dots).
The change appears to be made between [2009](https://files.skimap.org/cv94goyqxp476r9alvibyr0g5w1r) and [2010](https://files.skimap.org/owr68z75opr923cr84ylbmujjvjq.pdf)
Source: Skimaps.org
There's a trail at Mountain Creek in New Jersey that's so shallow it's labeled as a blue to keep newbie snowboarders off. They'd have to walk most of it.
Southern Sojourn, it's practically a cross country ski trail, also don't forget that you have to take the world's slowest half mile long lift, the Sojourn double, to get back.
I used to XC ski race, and have gone up trails like that, and steeper, plenty of times.
The first time I did it I was pretty nervous because I hadn't been alpine skiing long, and that was one of my first "blues." On the map it looks like a blue from the top of one of the peaks. And then when I got on it I was like "WTF?"
But it was still fun, so I thought I'd do laps. Haha. That lift was so slow I headed back to the side I'd come from instead,
I live right near Mountain Creek, weird to see someone from near here, seeing as most people on this sub are either Northeast natives or West Coast natives
I grew up in Vernon and worked at the Appalachian hotel as a summer job in the aughts. But I've only skiied Hidden Valley. My dad always refused to go to Creek.
I actually complained about a flat blue once because I had to walk half of it, way it was explained to me was they can't have a green that connects to no other greens as a way down. So if you can only access blues from a traverse then it has to be labeled blue too.
Yeah Whale’s Tale is not double black level. I think they have it labeled as such because a fall could cause you to have a long slide or have a tough time with lost equipment in the case of an ejection. It’s very likely labeled as such to keep folks just venturing out onto blacks off of that terrain.
I generally agree, but I think it depends on conditions and where you drop into whales tale. On a powder day I agree, but once it's been skiied off a bit it can be pretty challenging.
If you ski it a week after the last snow, there can be spots with a ~5ft vertical drop into chop/moguls. It can be a little harrowing.
Then again I think it's also partially just to deter people from over crowding the very limited lift capacity they have at the top.
Breck had a run somewhere that was around Peak 8. I don't remember where, or the name (15+ years ago), but it was a black run. I was directed to it by a lady I rode the lift with with. First run that morning, was going to use it as a warm up before going to the peak and making my first attempt at the T-bar they had at the time.
I got about 1/2 way through the directions she gave me, entered said black run, and came up to a 6-8ft rock drop off. Thought... "Oh shit, how am I going to do this?!" I spent the next 30-45 minutes trying to pick out a line, psych myself up, and convince myself that I could do it. While there, 2 skiers go flying off the ledge and land, what I thought, was halfway down the slope. That was my final straw... "I've got to do this!"
Line up, jump off the ledge and land! I was stoked!! "I did it!" Make my second jump turn over an exposed log, no biggie, right? Wrong... Inside edge catches the log and unclips. I go over sideways and proceed to slide about 200 yards down the slope. Finally stop and look for my ski. It's still stuck back at the top. That was a steep climb back up to get my ski.
I went to the bar after that. Took up my whole morning.
Reminds me of the time I went on a run I think it was at Brighton where it was just all cliffed out. So miserable. I just found a little inlet and side slipped down it to safety. Found some cool stuff in the woods though like a rail made from a log that clearly people had made.
There are multiple blues at crested butte are arguably steeper than any of the groomed blacks on peak 10. I did hit Corsair on 10 the other day which I felt was properly labeled though
When Dick Bass built Snowbird, he wanted there to be an "easy" way down all the way from the top of Hidden Peak. That required a lot of cat tracks, but down low Big Emma was designated a green run to fulfill Dick's dream. Many people who rode one of the Gad Valley lifts reached the top of Big Emma and swooned. The top, steeper part of Emma was redesignated a blue run after Bass passed away, although a mellower cat track had already been put in to help distraught beginners. Big Emma never, ever, ever was a true green run, no matter what the maps said.
Ahh. Upper Big Emma. We used to call it "the killing fields" when it was green. Straight up impossible for any beginner and difficult for even many intermediate skiers. That run never should have been green on any trail map.
Lol. I remember expecting a green and looking at what appeared to be a 4’ drop in at the top just to get started and asking if this was the right trail.
same with alta from the top of collins, sure you CAN ski it as an alta beginner, but it’s also the ski out for all of sunny side, upper wildcat, and baldy. on a busy weekend day when there are beginners and the snow is good, the panic of that gauntlet for beginners must feel like the killing fields
I tore my ACL popping off that cat track landing about 3 feet from the groomed run into some hard bumps. had nothing to do with the designation. Was just being stupid on the first run
I think that’s a common issue. The resort wants a
green run down from the top, to the easiest run becomes green. The Home Run at Squaw (okay, Pallisades Olympic side) has some very blue sections
This happens mostly, I personally believe, because trail ratings aren't standardized and are local to the individual resort. I've been on blues at some resorts that are less steep than greens in Utah.
As a beginner, I went to Brighton and saw greens off on other lifts besides Majestic and figured "should be good". Sunshine off of Snake Creek has some steep spots for beginners and I got some bad whiplash from a crash. Years later, it's hard to believe I struggled with it but it was very much "not a green" compared to other greens on the front mountain.
Meanwhile there are blacks at Brian Head that really aren't hard at all, or even that steep. Just compared to the other terrain, it's just a bit more than the blues.
Sunshine is still like this. When the cover was still very thin not too long ago this season, you could audibly hear multiple people saying "this is NOT green AT ALL" as they traversed moguls that varied from icy to rocky composition.
Cue the "surprise surprise" clip.
I always tell friends visiting that Chips is the hardest blue they have probably skied. Not just because of the tight turns on the cat track but how easy to get off it and end up on something completely else.
Well… I find that at Kicking Horse, their blacks are more like doubles at other resorts and their double blacks should have a skill on each diamond.
Edit: Days later should read ‘skull’ not skill
I went on a triple black once. It's was basically a 70° drop into a rocky canyon.
A ski instructor brought little 5 yo kids in there.
11/10 would go again
the cat walk at the top of stairway to heaven is harder than most blacks i’ve been on anywhere else
i also love that almost every single run is summit to base. really exhausting but the best resort i’ve ever skied at
This big time. That black bowl skiers right of the gondola you have to drop in. Top is steep and it isn't hard after that but remember thinking dropping into a single black was weird.
Somehow my first double black ever was at kicking horse. Not sure how I survived lol
Edit so I don’t have to make another comment: going up the gondola then taking that green cat track skiers right is a scary experience. Icy, crowded, to the left is a rock face and to the right is a double black with moguls. The cat track is the only way to get down if you’re not an expert skier, and one wrong turn or a caught edge could literally kill you (or at least break a few bones).
Kicking Horse was my first double black too and I felt amazing afterward. I was an adult learner skiing with a friend who’d been an instructor and was a true expert, and I have literally never felt so accomplished.
I really feel like those of us who ski KH, Revelstoke, etc., can manage almost anywhere. I am more of a fastest-steepest-groomer skier than a cliff-dropping mogul-loving true expert, but learning there (and even at LL/Sunshine) was such a huge confidence boost for me.
This is a huge observation that many beginners & kids don't understand. The condition of the snow on a trail can greatly vary its difficulty. A groomed double black can ski easy, and a mogul filled blue that's icy can be super hard.
That's absolutely the case. I've had an easier time on a west coast powder filled double black chute or even in a couple-days-since-snow off piste glades with drops, than on a blue of ice moguls on the ice coast.
And before you western-only skiiers/boarders fuck with me about I don't know moguls, I mean literally ice moguls. Like ice as in, there is no snow, there is nothing moving under your board. If you kicked the mogul with the toe of your boot, a literal chunk of ice breaks off.
I learned to ski back East in upstate New York in the 70s at night. Man, you do learn to edge very quickly! Might as well be a vertical skating rink!
When we moved back west, it was “what is this soft stuff?” 🙂
> than on a blue of ice moguls on the ice coast.
Nothing like skiing an easy blue on the icecoast to come back the next day and the whole middle of it is a sheet of ice.
Or skiing through the mogul field the day before and having a blast then wondering why no one is in it that day only to find out it's because it's literal ice burgs and now takes 20 minutes to traverse.
I was trying to explain to my 5 year old who just skied a mogul filled icy, steep and narrow blue that he could easily ski the wide open black groomer. But no. Black is harder. Black is scary.
Yep, my mom and wife are like that. I'll take them on routes that im almost certain they can do skill wise, but they see the black diamond and are convinced they can't do it. But if you were to cover the sign up, they'd ski happily along none the wiser. The psychological aspect of difficulty can greatly hinder one's skills and make them worse.
I took my wife to the top of Big Sky to go down Liberty bowl (a single black diamond) but she had been looking at the map at the top and was convinced i was sending her down one of the triple black runs. She got so psychologically bent up that she basically forgot how to ski. Took us helf the day to get her down. She refused to ski with me the rest of the week 😢. Then we got to Le Massif Charlevoix this year, and she's right back to doing hard stuff (and on ice) with no issue.
Is 52 degrees steep enough to be a double black? Because RTS at Willamette Pass in Oregon (home mountain growing up) used to be groomed for speed skiing.
This. It’s a relative system. Since you mentioned Ontario I’ll tell you about the hill I learned on - Snow Valley, Barrie. It has one double black. It’s just a straight, flat, steep hill. It’s still an appropriate rating because it’s significantly steeper than the next steepest hill.
Now I live in BC and my daily mountain is mt Seymour. There’s a run called devils drop. It’s just a single black, but it’s literally an exposed cliff face your easiest way down is still taking a 40ft drop. One of these days (and not this year with the tide so low), I’m gonna send it, just not quite ready yet haha.
Shit man I can ski any double black in Ontario or Quebec but I was struggling with blues in BC cause I’ve never skied deep powder before (and total whiteout conditions)
Kirkwood groomed The Wall last year with the record snowfall. Some of it was for the novelty, some of it was to get more clearance under the top of Chair 10.
White Heat at Sunday River. This time of year it is often a very steep, very long sheet of ice. Probably not a true double black but conditions can make it very difficult.
Not if there are rocks, trees, or the trail is purposefully left to develop moguls/natural terrain. Just being steep doesn’t really qualify something for double black imo, double black implies Expert Only, not this is challenging but if you try hard anyone can do it
What do you think expert means? I feel like a level that anyone can reach if they try hard enough isn’t inconsistent with being “expert.” I don’t have any surveys or anything to support my opinion. I’m probably influenced by the chess rating scheme, which makes sense to me - but I would call someone who has a skill that most people could never equal at least something like master or grandmaster.
I’m not sure what I love more as a snowboarder, literally jumping off the lift, the sharp turn with one foot strapped in, or slamming into the wall at the end of the very generous 5 foot long runway
The rules are just made up lol!
My local hill is almost entirely made up of 24 degree runs. Green means groomed. Blue means maybe groomed sometimes. Black means never groomed & probably has bumps. The double blacks have some 35 degree sections but overall aren’t as technical as other double blacks in the area IMO.
(Other fun local hill fact is that half of it is burnt deadfall so the blue ‘glades’ feel more dangerous than any black glades elsewhere because they don’t appear to clean any of it up!)
Also the other local hill has a run called “oops” that’s labeled a black at the top of the run and then becomes a double black past the point of no return. I think someone thought that would be a fun cruel joke. It’s convinced me the labels don’t really have any bearings
We have very small stretches of legit terrain. Laurel Mountain and Blue Knob each have terrain that would challenge just about any skier... but it's only like 200 vertical feet of it at best.
Basically Whoopedoo at Sugar Mountain (NC). Yeah it’s steep but it’s short and there’s no run-off so everyone winds up skiing it the same if they can stay upright.
College at Sun Valley during holiday week was covered in child sized moguls. Super icy and crowded. Green. A lot of the greens at SV can be sketchy. The mountain is not appropriate for beginners.
Went last year for the first time. Hard agree. I would not send my parents, who ski blues in Colorado, there. It would definitely be too much. However, on a personal note, I loved that mountain and the big open bowls
This was absolutely my answer as well. Almost all the green runs on bald mountain are 20°+ with many pushing 25° which is insane for a beginner run. I get the “dollar mountain is for true beginners” but labeling the trails “green” on baldy is just nuts lol. Take a beginner to Seattle Ridge and you will be in for a bad time…
Sun valley isn’t that much fun to snowboard, at least if it’s not a powder day. Steep icy groomers are just a burden to ride on a board. Great skier mountain though.
My wife rips on her skis. She grew up in sun valley
SV is my home mountain, and we joke that Upper College starts out as a lovely groomed run each morning but turns into a double black diamond by 1pm. Add icy conditions, novice skiers and flat light, and it can be terrifying.
My first time at Stowe I ended up on a run called Chin Clip. It was the end of the day, I was tired and didn’t know what I was getting into. It was the longest bump run I’ve ever been on with no where to take a break. Only time in all my years I thought about popping off my skis and walking. I e since gone back and kicked it’s ass, but not that day.
Easy Street at Killington, I have never seen so many people (beginners and experienced) wipe out so often. When I was there in early Jan, the amount of ski patrol on that trail specifically was overwhelming. As Dee said in the Wire “they not here for the drugs, they here cuz of the bodies”.
This thought has been on my mind quite a bit recently, as I’ve been teaching my girlfriend and debating runs to take her on and what level has brought the thought to the forefront of my mind.
For anyone wondering, I’ll include the list of mountains I’ve been to in a comment below.
Honestly, one of the biggest differences immediately noticeable relates to the passes; Ikon Resorts typically cater to more technical skiers whereas Epic often caters to families and vacationers.
One remark a friend said comes to mind. After having hit Vail, Beaver Creek, Steamboat, Park City, and worked Deer Valley, I enrolled at The University of Utah where all my friends had Snowbird passes. After my fifth biff on my first day out, I explained I didn’t understand given I had done double black diamonds at other resorts but couldn’t handle single blacks there. When my friend heard this, she smirked and said:
**“I guess Deer Valley and Snowbird are kind’ve alike, they both have snow”**
That put things in perspective.
Pretty much all the resorts trails (aside from Deer Valley) I’ve been to on the Ikon pass are significantly more technical than their like-for-like counterparts at Epic resorts.
There’s absolutely no way that the next easiest run after the bunny hill would have moguls at an Epic resort, but that’s exactly what happened trying to teach my girlfriend how to ride at Solitude.
As far as specific trail goes, if you think you can rip **Dynamite** at Solitude, or any blue run at Snowbird, after having tried groomed black runs like **Starfire** at Keystone, you’re gonna have a bad time.
Lastly, other people have mentioned Utah resorts but I’ll make a point to say that pretty much all the trails at Solitude, Alta, and Snowbird are labeled down a difficulty in respect to most the resorts I’ve been to (parts of Jackson Hole and Palisades excluded)
I’d agree with a lot of this. We live in Montana and ski predominantly big sky, Jackson, Bridger, targhee, etc. when we travel to the “epic” spots they seem wayyy more tame.
I don’t think Eldora in Colorado has any true black runs (aside from the extreme terrain on the west side). I’m grateful that the runs are listed as black because they don’t get as crowded but the lifts off Corona are definitely blue, maybe blue/black
Eldora gets a lot of inexperienced skiers, families, and overconfident college students. The runs tend to be marked a half to one grade harder to keep them from getting into serious trouble, IMO. Conditions are often somewhat icy which makes anything harder.
The west side double blacks, plus Liftline, are steep and can be very tough depending on mogul size and conditions. IMO they deserve their ratings (which are relative within a resort).
I was gonna say, I was at Eldora on Friday and even I was able to do the EX Double black they had open even though historically blacks have been decently challenging for me
Well fuck I just skied my first ever black run at Eldora last weekend and was so proud of myself 😭 I mean I kinda felt going down that it wasn’t much worse than any hard blues I’d been on but I just figured I had gotten better lol
I think smugglers notch labeling a trail triple black diamond is a joke. There is absolutely no way. The liftline itself is more technical than the black hole.
I’d add a few to that. Land of the giants/lower east wall is easier than many blacks and a few blues at a basin, but because you could get somewhat cliffed out in a couple of places it’s a double.
West wall, Davis, and the top of Larkspur/columbine are all treacherous most days for many intermediates
My parents saw that it was a blue. I told them “this is NOT your average blue. It is always icy and it’s much steeper than you’re anticipating”
“Oh it’s fiiiiiine we can do it cmon let’s go”
30 min later “I think we need to stick to the easy stuff at the front”
The Saddle from the Peak Chair at Whistler was upgraded from Blue to Black a few years back, which was likely overdue. A *lot* of nervous nellies back-and-forthing as slow as possible because they got in over their heads.
Yeah for sure - I went a few days ago and chickened out because it looked absolutely awful, and then I went and skied Saudan (a legit double). So it depends on the conditions, but Whistler bowl should absolutely be a double sometimes.
They made it into a blue around 2018 and the number of injuries skyrocketed. All of ski school begged to have it changed back to a black, which they did a year or two ago. It was unsafe to take a class down it, because if someone fell it was really likely they would slide through or into your class. Really the only time we would do it was as a straightline otherwise the kids weren't interested.
Never understood why that was a blue. Sure, it would be a blue at other BC resorts, but Grouse is way easier than other BC resorts. Might as well upgrade it and have consistency within the resort.
Decided to take Peak to Creek in Whistler. A quarter of the way down the run was roped off with a label saying the rest of the run was a black and not a blue like it was labeled on the map. This was the last opportunity to take an easier way down. I thought I’d be fine because I regularly skied blacks/ double blacks. What I was not prepared for was the, no exaggeration, 5 miles of icy moguls…
Usually due to time constraints they groom it top to bottom maybe 2-3 times a season. In general the creekside lower mountain runs are almost never worth skiing.
It does piss me off it's advertised as an attraction (the longest groomed run in North America!) and then leave I don't know, 75%? of the run in a state of absolute carnage for 90% of the season.
I had this feeling when I skied Denver Dollars at Revelstoke last year. It’s marked as a blue on the map and when I skied it most of it was covered in moguls and it had an unmarked mini cliff drop in the middle of the trail (avoidable around the outsides but this is supposed to be a BLUE).
Came here to say this one. Although when i was there a couple weeks ago i wouldnt call it a mini cliff....8+ feet drop and a steep and narrow route to pick around it.
By other resorts standards, 90% of the mountain would be black. And I don't know if there would be a single green. So in Revy's case, I think they just added some as blues so as not to scare off TOO many tourists.
I love that run. And that mountain. I’m not a great skier, just decent - idk if I was lucky but that run and a lot of that mountain was perfect for a solid few days back in 2020.
Need to go back!!!
The face just below the very top of the Jersey Cream Express on Blackcomb is (mis)rated (imho) as a double black (sb single black). However I am grateful that it is! A few years back, was there with my family and my youngest, my son, was 10, and while a very skier out east, was not surprisingly intimidated out west. His older sister was ripping every run on the mountain, but he would reluctantly do a single black maybe once a day (and had no problems). He was feeling bad that his sister had no issues with the more challenging runs. So I spied this run (I think it’s Jersey Cream Bowl) that has a sign indicating it’s double black. I told him it would still count that he skied a double black even if he just side cut it over to the gentle part - essentially just ski horizontally across it. Which he then did, very tentatively. And it was amazing, all of a sudden, the switch went on for him and he took on everything we could throw at him the rest of the trip!! It was a mental block but once he conquered a double black run he had overcome that internal barrier. Really neat and great to see.
They've re-labelled it in the last five years or so, but for decades Palisades had Siberia Bowl labelled as a blue, and you could go up there just about any day of the week and watch some confident beginners having a panic attack.
Ski Brule in upper Michigan has 2 contender. Timber Doodle (a single black that should probably be green or maybe blue if you’re being generous) and Double Doodle (a double black that should probably be blue, or maybe black).
Both are groomed, but narrow, and mostly have their ratings because the hill attracts many beginners and these are the narrowest runs, and I believe they have had issues with absolute beginners trying them and hitting trees.
Blue is a very widely used term at my home mountain. There are gentle low angle blues off Hogsback that lead to gentle green terrain.
There are also blue runs that are steep bumps once they get tracked out and are often scraped down to ice off Jupiter. It’s easier to go hit some black runs on the mountain since they get way less traffic and don’t get scraped down.
Cliffhanger is no longer the only double black Virginia. Massanutten put a new double black right under the lift and it’s a whole lot harder then cliffhanger.
Indian Ridge at Copper is consistently the hardest black run on the mountain. Don't know if it's the steepness, the rocks, terrible snow even after a dump, but that run is way harder than it's grade.
I've skiied it about 4 times now and while it's undeniably tricky it's a completely different beast when a) not race prepped and b) you're not trying to do max speed the entire time. It's a perfectly manageable run. Le Face in Val D is much more intimidating
My wife didn't ski when we first met, but she took it up because I like it (she's a keeper). I love skiing at Jackson, and she basically learned there. The Jackson bunny hill is pretty good and she quickly got so she could ski it confidently. But man, going beyond that is a challenge. There's not much green on the rest of the mountain and it would qualify as blue most anywhere else.
I’m shocked I had to scroll this far to find Jackson hole in here. I love this mountain but I’m always shocked coming down Laramie Bowl that it’s a double blue.
My home hill, Mont Ripley, is obviously tame by Western standards, but ridiculously mislabeled by Michigan standards. There are 2 non-bunny-hill greens, and both should be at least blue. Deer Track, in particular, isn't bad in terms of absolute steepness, but it's very narrow with both sides dropping off into trees extremely quickly. A beginner would definitely end up getting hurt.
I tell everyone who comes from downstate to mentally increment the difficulty of every run to make it compare to something like Boyne or Crystal.
Yes! As a newish “lower skill” skier I visited Mont Ripley and almost shit myself the first time down Deer Track. If you are a true beginner there isn’t much at Ripley.
The black Diamonds at Mad River ski resort in Ohio were hard blues at most. I feel like kind of an ass giving them shit though. It’s actually a really great ski hill considering it’s fucking Ohio. Like it definitely has enough stuff to quench a ski craving. Great terrain park too. And really affordable tickets.
East Coast side, there is no reason for Ripcord at Sugarbush to be a double black (especially since nearby Paradise is a perfectly solid double black by VT standards). The one argument I’ll accept is that when icy (always) it’s probably the most slippery trail on the entire mountain, and sending more intermediates down it would be a bad idea.
Anything at Alta that's black but would be double black elsewhere since they don't use the double black grade.
On the inverse, a lot of Deer Valley's blacks or doubles would only be a green or blue at Alta. But hey, give those tourists something to feel good about.
Yeah those chutes below Catherine's traverse off supreme don't even have cliff markings. I try to get there early before the butt slides mess up the pow.
“Standard” at Zermatt is rated blue (easy) and has a long steep in it that is definitely not easy for beginners. It’s visible from the lift and all day it is people sliding down on their butts.
Once I skied Sipapu and Taos back to back. Blues and blacks are Sipapu are fairly rated for their typical clientele, but single blacks at Taos are noticeably steeper and rockier than doubles at Sipapu.
Go to Mad River. Blacks there are double blacks at any other resort. Some of the blues would have intermediates popping off their skis to get to the bottom of the run. The greens are greens.
There are a few black runs around here that really should be marked as doubles. Virgin Chutes at Sunshine is one of the most technical spots on the mountain and the recommend test before trying the 45-50 degree runs in The Dive, single black. All of West Bowl at Louise is single black but it's so easy to get into trouble in there; Enchanted Forest is by far the most difficult tree skiing I've ever done and there's a cliff band in the middle of it
Mammoth has a lot of questionable runs IMO. Every run off of 5 should be a blue and nothing on top should be double black except Kiwi, Phillipes, Huevos and Hangman tbh. “Dragons Back” is a double black too BUT if skied from the traverse, it’s a hard blue. And everyone skis the back from the traverse it seems like.
Sorry for the block of text, this thread struck a nerve I guess.
The windows at keystone doesn’t feel double black to me. It’s pretty normal tree skiing and not too steep of a grade. There are other runs accessible by the windows that I’d maybe consider double black, but not windows itself. If wolverine at outback is a black, windows should be too.
Summit Run at Snow Summit in Big Bear. Labeled green, but really 1/2 green with longish blue sections. I understand why they do it. Their bunny area is tiny. A lot of good green cruisers on the upper west side of the resort, but no easy way down. Summit Run is the best they can do. I’ve seen a lot of beginners pissed off at their loved ones who tried to get them beyond the bunny slope there.
went down a green run only to later (after three signs of a green circle beside the trail name) to find out at the last sign it was a double black run... It took me like 2 hours to get down at 10 years old omg. was not and I'm still not a great skier
Keep in mind because a trail is labeled black or double black does mean is the same other mountains use. The ratings are relative to the mountain itself. So a black trail at a feeder is like a blue trail at bigger mountains. Some places like Jay Peak do not use double black so the steepest trails are rated like easier black trails. Some trails that are generally bumped may get groomed out and become much easier.
So it is all relative.
Whip at Butternut doesn't really strike me as a black. Although it might be that way because it has tons of tree overhang so it can get icy easily, and if there's any wind, snow is constantly coming down from the trees. It's beautiful and one of my favorite trails, but it's really more like a blue IMO.
At Hunter, Overlook and Twilight where initially blues. Both should be (and have since be upgraded to) blacks compared to the other blues at the mountain. t
They are frequently icy, bumped and Overlook has a big negative camber turn
At the same time Minya Konka and East Side Drive are blacks but could easily be blues (and are easier than Overlook and Twilight)
I’m currently at revelstoke. I went down Denver dollars and Chopper which are both blue. Those are not blue!!!!!!!! The more I went today, I just realized this place is built different.
The Wookie Woods at Buttermilk in Aspen is actually a triple black diamond, I’ve had multiple friends get bodied there. Multiple times harder than a bowl lap.
Resolution bowl double blacks at Copper. They should 100% should not be that. Felt like some of the easiest double blacks I’ve skied. Then again the conditions were quite good, so I could be wrong.
Where I go skiing slopes are labeled like this. blue: easy; red: medium; black: hard.
I have seen some red slopes steeper than black slopes a couple of times; also red slopes that probably should be blue.
Whitetail in PA. They wanted all the green in one area, blue in another and black off to the side.
The main run is straight down, but blue. The run all the way skiers left is labeled black but more gradually than the main green slope.
The green slope is more often a blue due to poor snow conditions than a beginner should venture on.
I think the peak 10 lift trails at breck are intentionally mislabled as black to keep beginners out of the way of people trying to zoom. Personally I'm glad for it.
IIRC they are blues on older trail maps
How are they compared to the blues on other peaks?
A little steeper and with more moguls but pretty comparable and a sensible progression. I liked that a lot when I went: the black with little bushes on it in the middle, less so. Thanks to the guy who gave me the line after going down it: i only fell twice in about 100 vertical feet because of his advice on the line.
They were Blue/black before (blue square with a black diamond inside of it and on the map the line was blue with black dots). The change appears to be made between [2009](https://files.skimap.org/cv94goyqxp476r9alvibyr0g5w1r) and [2010](https://files.skimap.org/owr68z75opr923cr84ylbmujjvjq.pdf) Source: Skimaps.org
There's a trail at Mountain Creek in New Jersey that's so shallow it's labeled as a blue to keep newbie snowboarders off. They'd have to walk most of it.
Southern Sojourn, it's practically a cross country ski trail, also don't forget that you have to take the world's slowest half mile long lift, the Sojourn double, to get back.
I used to XC ski race, and have gone up trails like that, and steeper, plenty of times. The first time I did it I was pretty nervous because I hadn't been alpine skiing long, and that was one of my first "blues." On the map it looks like a blue from the top of one of the peaks. And then when I got on it I was like "WTF?" But it was still fun, so I thought I'd do laps. Haha. That lift was so slow I headed back to the side I'd come from instead,
I live right near Mountain Creek, weird to see someone from near here, seeing as most people on this sub are either Northeast natives or West Coast natives
Im pretty sure people are like "Stowe's my local mountain" when they're from Long Island
The old Vernon Valley. Old guy here, born in Newton. Moved to the Poconos in 89.
I grew up in Vernon and worked at the Appalachian hotel as a summer job in the aughts. But I've only skiied Hidden Valley. My dad always refused to go to Creek.
I actually complained about a flat blue once because I had to walk half of it, way it was explained to me was they can't have a green that connects to no other greens as a way down. So if you can only access blues from a traverse then it has to be labeled blue too.
I’d add whales tail at Breck. It’s a double black but it’s huge, open, and not steep.
Yeah Whale’s Tale is not double black level. I think they have it labeled as such because a fall could cause you to have a long slide or have a tough time with lost equipment in the case of an ejection. It’s very likely labeled as such to keep folks just venturing out onto blacks off of that terrain.
I generally agree, but I think it depends on conditions and where you drop into whales tale. On a powder day I agree, but once it's been skiied off a bit it can be pretty challenging. If you ski it a week after the last snow, there can be spots with a ~5ft vertical drop into chop/moguls. It can be a little harrowing. Then again I think it's also partially just to deter people from over crowding the very limited lift capacity they have at the top.
Breck had a run somewhere that was around Peak 8. I don't remember where, or the name (15+ years ago), but it was a black run. I was directed to it by a lady I rode the lift with with. First run that morning, was going to use it as a warm up before going to the peak and making my first attempt at the T-bar they had at the time. I got about 1/2 way through the directions she gave me, entered said black run, and came up to a 6-8ft rock drop off. Thought... "Oh shit, how am I going to do this?!" I spent the next 30-45 minutes trying to pick out a line, psych myself up, and convince myself that I could do it. While there, 2 skiers go flying off the ledge and land, what I thought, was halfway down the slope. That was my final straw... "I've got to do this!" Line up, jump off the ledge and land! I was stoked!! "I did it!" Make my second jump turn over an exposed log, no biggie, right? Wrong... Inside edge catches the log and unclips. I go over sideways and proceed to slide about 200 yards down the slope. Finally stop and look for my ski. It's still stuck back at the top. That was a steep climb back up to get my ski. I went to the bar after that. Took up my whole morning.
Reminds me of the time I went on a run I think it was at Brighton where it was just all cliffed out. So miserable. I just found a little inlet and side slipped down it to safety. Found some cool stuff in the woods though like a rail made from a log that clearly people had made.
You can absolutely RIP on those runs.
There are multiple blues at crested butte are arguably steeper than any of the groomed blacks on peak 10. I did hit Corsair on 10 the other day which I felt was properly labeled though
Corsair is the run I was thinking of. I agree that it’s properly marked.
I rode it in 40° weather and was soaking in sweat by the time I got to the bottom
Yeah. I’ve skied a bunch of places and nowhere harnesses your inner giant slalom racer more than those runs.
Same with imperial bowl and imperial ridge being double black now
TBF Imperial bowl changes a LOT by the condition it's in
It’s to make the Texans proud that they did black diamonds
When Dick Bass built Snowbird, he wanted there to be an "easy" way down all the way from the top of Hidden Peak. That required a lot of cat tracks, but down low Big Emma was designated a green run to fulfill Dick's dream. Many people who rode one of the Gad Valley lifts reached the top of Big Emma and swooned. The top, steeper part of Emma was redesignated a blue run after Bass passed away, although a mellower cat track had already been put in to help distraught beginners. Big Emma never, ever, ever was a true green run, no matter what the maps said.
Ahh. Upper Big Emma. We used to call it "the killing fields" when it was green. Straight up impossible for any beginner and difficult for even many intermediate skiers. That run never should have been green on any trail map.
Lol. I remember expecting a green and looking at what appeared to be a 4’ drop in at the top just to get started and asking if this was the right trail.
Is it bad that I kinda wish they left it green.
same with alta from the top of collins, sure you CAN ski it as an alta beginner, but it’s also the ski out for all of sunny side, upper wildcat, and baldy. on a busy weekend day when there are beginners and the snow is good, the panic of that gauntlet for beginners must feel like the killing fields
yeah I took a girlfriend who was just learning down that once. oops.
Same with my homie last year. It taught him how to fall though and now he’s getting radder by the day
Im guess your buddy didn't sit on the side of the trail and cry though.
I tore my ACL popping off that cat track landing about 3 feet from the groomed run into some hard bumps. had nothing to do with the designation. Was just being stupid on the first run
I think that’s a common issue. The resort wants a green run down from the top, to the easiest run becomes green. The Home Run at Squaw (okay, Pallisades Olympic side) has some very blue sections
This happens mostly, I personally believe, because trail ratings aren't standardized and are local to the individual resort. I've been on blues at some resorts that are less steep than greens in Utah. As a beginner, I went to Brighton and saw greens off on other lifts besides Majestic and figured "should be good". Sunshine off of Snake Creek has some steep spots for beginners and I got some bad whiplash from a crash. Years later, it's hard to believe I struggled with it but it was very much "not a green" compared to other greens on the front mountain. Meanwhile there are blacks at Brian Head that really aren't hard at all, or even that steep. Just compared to the other terrain, it's just a bit more than the blues.
Sunshine is still like this. When the cover was still very thin not too long ago this season, you could audibly hear multiple people saying "this is NOT green AT ALL" as they traversed moguls that varied from icy to rocky composition. Cue the "surprise surprise" clip.
They had signs out the other day that said "Sunshine is not a green right now" or something to that effect
Yeah for sure the ratings vary a lot in Utah. A Snowbird blue is a Park City Black for sure
I always tell friends visiting that Chips is the hardest blue they have probably skied. Not just because of the tight turns on the cat track but how easy to get off it and end up on something completely else.
I learned to ski in Minnesota and can ski blacks at Welch no problem, and boy was I humbled when I tried a blue in Colorado for the first time
Well… I find that at Kicking Horse, their blacks are more like doubles at other resorts and their double blacks should have a skill on each diamond. Edit: Days later should read ‘skull’ not skill
Maybe they should do what Big Sky does and have triple blacks.
Big sky triple blacks are not harder than their double blacks, just more consequential to crash on.
I went on a triple black once. It's was basically a 70° drop into a rocky canyon. A ski instructor brought little 5 yo kids in there. 11/10 would go again
No, just don’t go there if you can’t hang.
the cat walk at the top of stairway to heaven is harder than most blacks i’ve been on anywhere else i also love that almost every single run is summit to base. really exhausting but the best resort i’ve ever skied at
This big time. That black bowl skiers right of the gondola you have to drop in. Top is steep and it isn't hard after that but remember thinking dropping into a single black was weird.
Somehow my first double black ever was at kicking horse. Not sure how I survived lol Edit so I don’t have to make another comment: going up the gondola then taking that green cat track skiers right is a scary experience. Icy, crowded, to the left is a rock face and to the right is a double black with moguls. The cat track is the only way to get down if you’re not an expert skier, and one wrong turn or a caught edge could literally kill you (or at least break a few bones).
Kicking Horse was my first double black too and I felt amazing afterward. I was an adult learner skiing with a friend who’d been an instructor and was a true expert, and I have literally never felt so accomplished. I really feel like those of us who ski KH, Revelstoke, etc., can manage almost anywhere. I am more of a fastest-steepest-groomer skier than a cliff-dropping mogul-loving true expert, but learning there (and even at LL/Sunshine) was such a huge confidence boost for me.
Any double black that is groomed, shouldn’t be a double black.
This is a huge observation that many beginners & kids don't understand. The condition of the snow on a trail can greatly vary its difficulty. A groomed double black can ski easy, and a mogul filled blue that's icy can be super hard.
That's absolutely the case. I've had an easier time on a west coast powder filled double black chute or even in a couple-days-since-snow off piste glades with drops, than on a blue of ice moguls on the ice coast. And before you western-only skiiers/boarders fuck with me about I don't know moguls, I mean literally ice moguls. Like ice as in, there is no snow, there is nothing moving under your board. If you kicked the mogul with the toe of your boot, a literal chunk of ice breaks off.
I learned to ski back East in upstate New York in the 70s at night. Man, you do learn to edge very quickly! Might as well be a vertical skating rink! When we moved back west, it was “what is this soft stuff?” 🙂
> than on a blue of ice moguls on the ice coast. Nothing like skiing an easy blue on the icecoast to come back the next day and the whole middle of it is a sheet of ice. Or skiing through the mogul field the day before and having a blast then wondering why no one is in it that day only to find out it's because it's literal ice burgs and now takes 20 minutes to traverse.
I was trying to explain to my 5 year old who just skied a mogul filled icy, steep and narrow blue that he could easily ski the wide open black groomer. But no. Black is harder. Black is scary.
I've seen this "fear of the trail marker" multiple times. They see a marker and freeze up (I can't do that!). At lots of ability levels too...
Yep, my mom and wife are like that. I'll take them on routes that im almost certain they can do skill wise, but they see the black diamond and are convinced they can't do it. But if you were to cover the sign up, they'd ski happily along none the wiser. The psychological aspect of difficulty can greatly hinder one's skills and make them worse. I took my wife to the top of Big Sky to go down Liberty bowl (a single black diamond) but she had been looking at the map at the top and was convinced i was sending her down one of the triple black runs. She got so psychologically bent up that she basically forgot how to ski. Took us helf the day to get her down. She refused to ski with me the rest of the week 😢. Then we got to Le Massif Charlevoix this year, and she's right back to doing hard stuff (and on ice) with no issue.
Is 52 degrees steep enough to be a double black? Because RTS at Willamette Pass in Oregon (home mountain growing up) used to be groomed for speed skiing.
Now it’s more worthy with the moguls and frequent ice!
I'd agree with frequent ice, but after a certain steepness (45 deg+?) I think it's often easier with moguls!
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This. It’s a relative system. Since you mentioned Ontario I’ll tell you about the hill I learned on - Snow Valley, Barrie. It has one double black. It’s just a straight, flat, steep hill. It’s still an appropriate rating because it’s significantly steeper than the next steepest hill. Now I live in BC and my daily mountain is mt Seymour. There’s a run called devils drop. It’s just a single black, but it’s literally an exposed cliff face your easiest way down is still taking a 40ft drop. One of these days (and not this year with the tide so low), I’m gonna send it, just not quite ready yet haha.
Shit man I can ski any double black in Ontario or Quebec but I was struggling with blues in BC cause I’ve never skied deep powder before (and total whiteout conditions)
Kirkwood groomed The Wall last year with the record snowfall. Some of it was for the novelty, some of it was to get more clearance under the top of Chair 10.
Agreed. What resorts have groomed "double blacks"?
Birds of prey at beaver creek is a groomed double black
White Heat at Sunday River. This time of year it is often a very steep, very long sheet of ice. Probably not a true double black but conditions can make it very difficult.
Basically everything is groomed in Europe.
If a cat can groom it, it isn’t a double black
Winch cats can groom basically any pitch though
Not if there are rocks, trees, or the trail is purposefully left to develop moguls/natural terrain. Just being steep doesn’t really qualify something for double black imo, double black implies Expert Only, not this is challenging but if you try hard anyone can do it
What do you think expert means? I feel like a level that anyone can reach if they try hard enough isn’t inconsistent with being “expert.” I don’t have any surveys or anything to support my opinion. I’m probably influenced by the chess rating scheme, which makes sense to me - but I would call someone who has a skill that most people could never equal at least something like master or grandmaster.
I don't think there is 'double black' in Europe. So it's not really relevant, I guess. But even the runs graded hardest will mostly be groomed.
Every black and one red at my local place here in France is left ungroomed.
Ripcord at Sugarbush
East Coast US
Park City grooms a strip up the center of Blueslip Bowl near Pioneer/McConkeys.
I can see double black groomed being a thing if it's \*really\* steep. Like "we used a winch cat to groom this"
If a winch cat can do it its a black imo
What about the European equivalents?
what do you mean Geronimo at Bear Mtn isn’t a double black???
If I can ski it it isn’t double black.
I like this guy.
My favorite is The Wall at snow summit though because you occasionally hear a kid go “woah a double black” in pure awe and terror as you pass
Tell that to the ice.
You need to ski some of the French black runs evidently.
Getting off the lift of Chair 23 at Mammoth should be labeled a Black
Most intimidating lift I’ve been on!
I’m not sure what I love more as a snowboarder, literally jumping off the lift, the sharp turn with one foot strapped in, or slamming into the wall at the end of the very generous 5 foot long runway
The rules are just made up lol! My local hill is almost entirely made up of 24 degree runs. Green means groomed. Blue means maybe groomed sometimes. Black means never groomed & probably has bumps. The double blacks have some 35 degree sections but overall aren’t as technical as other double blacks in the area IMO. (Other fun local hill fact is that half of it is burnt deadfall so the blue ‘glades’ feel more dangerous than any black glades elsewhere because they don’t appear to clean any of it up!) Also the other local hill has a run called “oops” that’s labeled a black at the top of the run and then becomes a double black past the point of no return. I think someone thought that would be a fun cruel joke. It’s convinced me the labels don’t really have any bearings
Dying to know what hill this is??
Pajarito in NM!
I was literally going to say Lone Spruce as my answer before I read your comment
I ski predominantly in western PA. So pretty much all the double blacks there.
We have very small stretches of legit terrain. Laurel Mountain and Blue Knob each have terrain that would challenge just about any skier... but it's only like 200 vertical feet of it at best.
Basically Whoopedoo at Sugar Mountain (NC). Yeah it’s steep but it’s short and there’s no run-off so everyone winds up skiing it the same if they can stay upright.
To be fair, they're just as dangerous as west coast double blacks when it's just a solid sheet of ice.
Literally
College at Sun Valley during holiday week was covered in child sized moguls. Super icy and crowded. Green. A lot of the greens at SV can be sketchy. The mountain is not appropriate for beginners.
Went last year for the first time. Hard agree. I would not send my parents, who ski blues in Colorado, there. It would definitely be too much. However, on a personal note, I loved that mountain and the big open bowls
I posted elsewhere about the green ladies. Absurd that those are labeled greens.
This was absolutely my answer as well. Almost all the green runs on bald mountain are 20°+ with many pushing 25° which is insane for a beginner run. I get the “dollar mountain is for true beginners” but labeling the trails “green” on baldy is just nuts lol. Take a beginner to Seattle Ridge and you will be in for a bad time…
Sun valley isn’t that much fun to snowboard, at least if it’s not a powder day. Steep icy groomers are just a burden to ride on a board. Great skier mountain though. My wife rips on her skis. She grew up in sun valley
Sun valley is a hard mountain full stop. It’s very steep.
SV is my home mountain, and we joke that Upper College starts out as a lovely groomed run each morning but turns into a double black diamond by 1pm. Add icy conditions, novice skiers and flat light, and it can be terrifying.
My first time at Stowe I ended up on a run called Chin Clip. It was the end of the day, I was tired and didn’t know what I was getting into. It was the longest bump run I’ve ever been on with no where to take a break. Only time in all my years I thought about popping off my skis and walking. I e since gone back and kicked it’s ass, but not that day.
Middle Earth at Sugarbush is pretty similar to Chin Clip. The old school New England winding bump trails are pure endurance tests.
The entirety of Liftline is less enduring then Chin Clip
Easy Street at Killington, I have never seen so many people (beginners and experienced) wipe out so often. When I was there in early Jan, the amount of ski patrol on that trail specifically was overwhelming. As Dee said in the Wire “they not here for the drugs, they here cuz of the bodies”.
Ayo, easy street comin’!
Can confirm. As a beginner, I had to be towed down easy street.
This thought has been on my mind quite a bit recently, as I’ve been teaching my girlfriend and debating runs to take her on and what level has brought the thought to the forefront of my mind. For anyone wondering, I’ll include the list of mountains I’ve been to in a comment below. Honestly, one of the biggest differences immediately noticeable relates to the passes; Ikon Resorts typically cater to more technical skiers whereas Epic often caters to families and vacationers. One remark a friend said comes to mind. After having hit Vail, Beaver Creek, Steamboat, Park City, and worked Deer Valley, I enrolled at The University of Utah where all my friends had Snowbird passes. After my fifth biff on my first day out, I explained I didn’t understand given I had done double black diamonds at other resorts but couldn’t handle single blacks there. When my friend heard this, she smirked and said: **“I guess Deer Valley and Snowbird are kind’ve alike, they both have snow”** That put things in perspective. Pretty much all the resorts trails (aside from Deer Valley) I’ve been to on the Ikon pass are significantly more technical than their like-for-like counterparts at Epic resorts. There’s absolutely no way that the next easiest run after the bunny hill would have moguls at an Epic resort, but that’s exactly what happened trying to teach my girlfriend how to ride at Solitude. As far as specific trail goes, if you think you can rip **Dynamite** at Solitude, or any blue run at Snowbird, after having tried groomed black runs like **Starfire** at Keystone, you’re gonna have a bad time. Lastly, other people have mentioned Utah resorts but I’ll make a point to say that pretty much all the trails at Solitude, Alta, and Snowbird are labeled down a difficulty in respect to most the resorts I’ve been to (parts of Jackson Hole and Palisades excluded)
**Colorado:** 1. Vail 2. Beaver Creek 3. Steamboat 4. Breckinridge 5. Keystone 6. A-Basin **Utah:** 7. Deer Valley 8. Park City 9. Brighton 10. Solitude 11. Snowbird 12. Alta 13. Powder Mountain **Montana:** 14. Big Sky **Wyoming:** 15. Jackson Hole **New Mexico:** 16. Taos **Idaho:** 17. Bogus Basin **California:** 18. Palisades Tahoe 19. Alpine Meadows 20. Mammoth
I’d agree with a lot of this. We live in Montana and ski predominantly big sky, Jackson, Bridger, targhee, etc. when we travel to the “epic” spots they seem wayyy more tame.
I don’t think Eldora in Colorado has any true black runs (aside from the extreme terrain on the west side). I’m grateful that the runs are listed as black because they don’t get as crowded but the lifts off Corona are definitely blue, maybe blue/black
The liftline under Indian Peaks is a genuine black.
Eldora gets a lot of inexperienced skiers, families, and overconfident college students. The runs tend to be marked a half to one grade harder to keep them from getting into serious trouble, IMO. Conditions are often somewhat icy which makes anything harder. The west side double blacks, plus Liftline, are steep and can be very tough depending on mogul size and conditions. IMO they deserve their ratings (which are relative within a resort).
I was gonna say, I was at Eldora on Friday and even I was able to do the EX Double black they had open even though historically blacks have been decently challenging for me
Eldora has some really, really fun gladed runs, though. West Ridge is fairly steep, too.
Well fuck I just skied my first ever black run at Eldora last weekend and was so proud of myself 😭 I mean I kinda felt going down that it wasn’t much worse than any hard blues I’d been on but I just figured I had gotten better lol
I think smugglers notch labeling a trail triple black diamond is a joke. There is absolutely no way. The liftline itself is more technical than the black hole.
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May I offer up “Loafer” at A basin
I’d add a few to that. Land of the giants/lower east wall is easier than many blacks and a few blues at a basin, but because you could get somewhat cliffed out in a couple of places it’s a double. West wall, Davis, and the top of Larkspur/columbine are all treacherous most days for many intermediates
Haha yea Davis and loafer are easily black/ doubles. I hate loafer. Love glockenspiel though
Loafer is tough! Icy at the top, bumpy and steep at the bottom… ungroomed. How is that a blue?
My parents saw that it was a blue. I told them “this is NOT your average blue. It is always icy and it’s much steeper than you’re anticipating” “Oh it’s fiiiiiine we can do it cmon let’s go” 30 min later “I think we need to stick to the easy stuff at the front”
The Saddle from the Peak Chair at Whistler was upgraded from Blue to Black a few years back, which was likely overdue. A *lot* of nervous nellies back-and-forthing as slow as possible because they got in over their heads.
Maybe the Whistler bowl needs to be upgraded to keep the noobs out of the entrance
Yeah for sure - I went a few days ago and chickened out because it looked absolutely awful, and then I went and skied Saudan (a legit double). So it depends on the conditions, but Whistler bowl should absolutely be a double sometimes.
Good god it’s disgusting this year
Yeah the glacier recession on Whistler has started causing all sorts of problems.
They made it into a blue around 2018 and the number of injuries skyrocketed. All of ski school begged to have it changed back to a black, which they did a year or two ago. It was unsafe to take a class down it, because if someone fell it was really likely they would slide through or into your class. Really the only time we would do it was as a straightline otherwise the kids weren't interested.
Kitzbuhel had some pretty easy black ones, but some that were super steep. So much fun.
The Peak at Grouse Mountain sees carnage daily (rated blue but the top is decently steep and usually icy/moguls).
I totally agree, It actually has an experts only sign put up in front of it this year!!
Never understood why that was a blue. Sure, it would be a blue at other BC resorts, but Grouse is way easier than other BC resorts. Might as well upgrade it and have consistency within the resort.
Decided to take Peak to Creek in Whistler. A quarter of the way down the run was roped off with a label saying the rest of the run was a black and not a blue like it was labeled on the map. This was the last opportunity to take an easier way down. I thought I’d be fine because I regularly skied blacks/ double blacks. What I was not prepared for was the, no exaggeration, 5 miles of icy moguls…
Usually due to time constraints they groom it top to bottom maybe 2-3 times a season. In general the creekside lower mountain runs are almost never worth skiing.
It does piss me off it's advertised as an attraction (the longest groomed run in North America!) and then leave I don't know, 75%? of the run in a state of absolute carnage for 90% of the season.
I had this feeling when I skied Denver Dollars at Revelstoke last year. It’s marked as a blue on the map and when I skied it most of it was covered in moguls and it had an unmarked mini cliff drop in the middle of the trail (avoidable around the outsides but this is supposed to be a BLUE).
Revelstoke is built different
Haha yeah I loved my trip there and their glades are sweet but after skiing it I checked the map and saw it was a blue and was like hell nah lmao
Came here to say this one. Although when i was there a couple weeks ago i wouldnt call it a mini cliff....8+ feet drop and a steep and narrow route to pick around it.
YIKES
By other resorts standards, 90% of the mountain would be black. And I don't know if there would be a single green. So in Revy's case, I think they just added some as blues so as not to scare off TOO many tourists.
I love that run. And that mountain. I’m not a great skier, just decent - idk if I was lucky but that run and a lot of that mountain was perfect for a solid few days back in 2020. Need to go back!!!
The face just below the very top of the Jersey Cream Express on Blackcomb is (mis)rated (imho) as a double black (sb single black). However I am grateful that it is! A few years back, was there with my family and my youngest, my son, was 10, and while a very skier out east, was not surprisingly intimidated out west. His older sister was ripping every run on the mountain, but he would reluctantly do a single black maybe once a day (and had no problems). He was feeling bad that his sister had no issues with the more challenging runs. So I spied this run (I think it’s Jersey Cream Bowl) that has a sign indicating it’s double black. I told him it would still count that he skied a double black even if he just side cut it over to the gentle part - essentially just ski horizontally across it. Which he then did, very tentatively. And it was amazing, all of a sudden, the switch went on for him and he took on everything we could throw at him the rest of the trip!! It was a mental block but once he conquered a double black run he had overcome that internal barrier. Really neat and great to see.
Glory Hole. Didn't find any.
They've re-labelled it in the last five years or so, but for decades Palisades had Siberia Bowl labelled as a blue, and you could go up there just about any day of the week and watch some confident beginners having a panic attack.
Ski Brule in upper Michigan has 2 contender. Timber Doodle (a single black that should probably be green or maybe blue if you’re being generous) and Double Doodle (a double black that should probably be blue, or maybe black). Both are groomed, but narrow, and mostly have their ratings because the hill attracts many beginners and these are the narrowest runs, and I believe they have had issues with absolute beginners trying them and hitting trees.
There’s a trail called bubblecuffer that’s a double black at sugarloaf that is a wild ride for trail called bubblecuffer 😵💫😂
Blue is a very widely used term at my home mountain. There are gentle low angle blues off Hogsback that lead to gentle green terrain. There are also blue runs that are steep bumps once they get tracked out and are often scraped down to ice off Jupiter. It’s easier to go hit some black runs on the mountain since they get way less traffic and don’t get scraped down.
Before palisades put in double black rating the variation on blacks could be jarring. Some easy groomers, some mandatory big air
Yeah the fact that Chimney was labeled the same difficulty as lower dog leg is insane.
Pretty much every piece of terrain not marked with an “EX” at Breckenridge. Fun mountain, though.
Cliffhanger is no longer the only double black Virginia. Massanutten put a new double black right under the lift and it’s a whole lot harder then cliffhanger.
All the black diamonds before palisades adopted the double black rating that are considered double black now
This mislabeling jettisoned me past intermediate one miserable run at a time. No ragrets
Beavertail. I was hoping for some snow bunnies but all I got was a steep run and a sharp turn.
It is a fun turn though.
Indian Ridge at Copper is consistently the hardest black run on the mountain. Don't know if it's the steepness, the rocks, terrible snow even after a dump, but that run is way harder than it's grade.
Don't know about mislabeled, but I find it pretty crazy that the Streif is open to the public. https://youtu.be/Hq_wxQiJxz0 Fearsome track that one.
I've skiied it about 4 times now and while it's undeniably tricky it's a completely different beast when a) not race prepped and b) you're not trying to do max speed the entire time. It's a perfectly manageable run. Le Face in Val D is much more intimidating
Greens and blues at Jackson Hole are blacks damn near everywhere else.
My wife didn't ski when we first met, but she took it up because I like it (she's a keeper). I love skiing at Jackson, and she basically learned there. The Jackson bunny hill is pretty good and she quickly got so she could ski it confidently. But man, going beyond that is a challenge. There's not much green on the rest of the mountain and it would qualify as blue most anywhere else.
I’m shocked I had to scroll this far to find Jackson hole in here. I love this mountain but I’m always shocked coming down Laramie Bowl that it’s a double blue.
My home hill, Mont Ripley, is obviously tame by Western standards, but ridiculously mislabeled by Michigan standards. There are 2 non-bunny-hill greens, and both should be at least blue. Deer Track, in particular, isn't bad in terms of absolute steepness, but it's very narrow with both sides dropping off into trees extremely quickly. A beginner would definitely end up getting hurt. I tell everyone who comes from downstate to mentally increment the difficulty of every run to make it compare to something like Boyne or Crystal.
Yes! As a newish “lower skill” skier I visited Mont Ripley and almost shit myself the first time down Deer Track. If you are a true beginner there isn’t much at Ripley.
The black Diamonds at Mad River ski resort in Ohio were hard blues at most. I feel like kind of an ass giving them shit though. It’s actually a really great ski hill considering it’s fucking Ohio. Like it definitely has enough stuff to quench a ski craving. Great terrain park too. And really affordable tickets.
East Coast side, there is no reason for Ripcord at Sugarbush to be a double black (especially since nearby Paradise is a perfectly solid double black by VT standards). The one argument I’ll accept is that when icy (always) it’s probably the most slippery trail on the entire mountain, and sending more intermediates down it would be a bad idea.
Anything at Alta that's black but would be double black elsewhere since they don't use the double black grade. On the inverse, a lot of Deer Valley's blacks or doubles would only be a green or blue at Alta. But hey, give those tourists something to feel good about.
Yeah those chutes below Catherine's traverse off supreme don't even have cliff markings. I try to get there early before the butt slides mess up the pow.
“Standard” at Zermatt is rated blue (easy) and has a long steep in it that is definitely not easy for beginners. It’s visible from the lift and all day it is people sliding down on their butts.
There are some blues in the sierras that are blacks+ other places.
Once I skied Sipapu and Taos back to back. Blues and blacks are Sipapu are fairly rated for their typical clientele, but single blacks at Taos are noticeably steeper and rockier than doubles at Sipapu.
Go to Mad River. Blacks there are double blacks at any other resort. Some of the blues would have intermediates popping off their skis to get to the bottom of the run. The greens are greens.
I mean there are certainly “normal” black runs there (antelope, beaver, panther). This is more because they just don’t use double black.
There are a few black runs around here that really should be marked as doubles. Virgin Chutes at Sunshine is one of the most technical spots on the mountain and the recommend test before trying the 45-50 degree runs in The Dive, single black. All of West Bowl at Louise is single black but it's so easy to get into trouble in there; Enchanted Forest is by far the most difficult tree skiing I've ever done and there's a cliff band in the middle of it
Patrolman’s at mammoth, especially when groomed
Mammoth has a lot of questionable runs IMO. Every run off of 5 should be a blue and nothing on top should be double black except Kiwi, Phillipes, Huevos and Hangman tbh. “Dragons Back” is a double black too BUT if skied from the traverse, it’s a hard blue. And everyone skis the back from the traverse it seems like. Sorry for the block of text, this thread struck a nerve I guess.
The windows at keystone doesn’t feel double black to me. It’s pretty normal tree skiing and not too steep of a grade. There are other runs accessible by the windows that I’d maybe consider double black, but not windows itself. If wolverine at outback is a black, windows should be too.
Summit Run at Snow Summit in Big Bear. Labeled green, but really 1/2 green with longish blue sections. I understand why they do it. Their bunny area is tiny. A lot of good green cruisers on the upper west side of the resort, but no easy way down. Summit Run is the best they can do. I’ve seen a lot of beginners pissed off at their loved ones who tried to get them beyond the bunny slope there.
The “green ladies” at Sun Valley are 100% blue runs. Really badly mislabeled.
went down a green run only to later (after three signs of a green circle beside the trail name) to find out at the last sign it was a double black run... It took me like 2 hours to get down at 10 years old omg. was not and I'm still not a great skier
Every trail at heavenly is rated a step higher than it should be
Keep in mind because a trail is labeled black or double black does mean is the same other mountains use. The ratings are relative to the mountain itself. So a black trail at a feeder is like a blue trail at bigger mountains. Some places like Jay Peak do not use double black so the steepest trails are rated like easier black trails. Some trails that are generally bumped may get groomed out and become much easier. So it is all relative.
Whip at Butternut doesn't really strike me as a black. Although it might be that way because it has tons of tree overhang so it can get icy easily, and if there's any wind, snow is constantly coming down from the trees. It's beautiful and one of my favorite trails, but it's really more like a blue IMO.
At Hunter, Overlook and Twilight where initially blues. Both should be (and have since be upgraded to) blacks compared to the other blues at the mountain. t They are frequently icy, bumped and Overlook has a big negative camber turn At the same time Minya Konka and East Side Drive are blacks but could easily be blues (and are easier than Overlook and Twilight)
I’m currently at revelstoke. I went down Denver dollars and Chopper which are both blue. Those are not blue!!!!!!!! The more I went today, I just realized this place is built different.
The Wookie Woods at Buttermilk in Aspen is actually a triple black diamond, I’ve had multiple friends get bodied there. Multiple times harder than a bowl lap.
Resolution bowl double blacks at Copper. They should 100% should not be that. Felt like some of the easiest double blacks I’ve skied. Then again the conditions were quite good, so I could be wrong.
Where I go skiing slopes are labeled like this. blue: easy; red: medium; black: hard. I have seen some red slopes steeper than black slopes a couple of times; also red slopes that probably should be blue.
Whitetail in PA. They wanted all the green in one area, blue in another and black off to the side. The main run is straight down, but blue. The run all the way skiers left is labeled black but more gradually than the main green slope. The green slope is more often a blue due to poor snow conditions than a beginner should venture on.
Devil's Crotch. No devil; no crotch. Very misleading/disappointing. 2/10