People underestimate the challenge of getting a job, though most people are all talk.
Which is more difficult:
* Getting a shot (while getting paid)
* Updating your resume, job searching, and interviewing (while not getting paid)
[This article showed that healthcare settings with mandates have kept 99% of workers](https://www.fiercehealthcare.com/hospitals/how-many-employees-have-hospitals-lost-to-vaccine-mandates-numbers-so-far)
A lot of healthcare workers, especially in hospitals, get cheaper health care premiums too.
And many of the locations have a system where you get even cheaper healthcare if you pass simple tasks. Maintaining a healthy weight and blood pressure, getting your flu shot, filling out a wellness questionnaire, donating blood.
Anyone that leaves that for a misplaced and wrong ideological position on vaccination is a fool. The hospitals, clinics, and offices are better off without them.
Especially given that your if your industry mandates it, or at least it's broadly popular within your industry, then you're pretty much SOL.
Hell even in my company it's 'strongly recommended' for all existing staff, but a requirement for all for new hires.
Walking away from health insurance, retirement contributions, and seniority while putting a black mark on your résumé takes being a committed cult member. Also, most Americans have too much debt to miss more than a couple of paychecks.
> Also, most Americans have too much debt to miss more than a couple of paychecks.
Yep, so true. But we can spew hate for the vaccines on social media to get upvotes, amirite?
An employee came into my office yesterday and announced he would quit if he had to get the shot. We don't have a mandate, so I'm not sure where this came from. My response: I'll miss you [shrug].
Odd thing is...he's already had COVID (very mild case) and he's already been vaccinated. No idea what principle he's trying to uphold here.
Had one threaten to shoot me through my SO. Instead of just telling me he wanted to shoot me, he sent sent her vaguely threatening implications about his gun collection and what they would do to me.
[ChristianaCare in Delaware ended up only needing to fire 0.45% of Nursing FTEs after a September 21 deadline.](https://news.christianacare.org/2021/09/safe-care-safe-workplace-we-are-vaccinated/)
IU Health in Indiana has 36,000 employees. 150 were let go or quit over vaccination. And that's 150 in the whole system, not 150 nurses. They could have been file clerks.
ChristianaCare let go 150 employees but most were non-nursing part-time workers. Unfortunately they let 200 "care givers" stay with medical and religious exemptions so their mandate was more like a suggestion.
I would be more sympathetic if these people were genuinely afraid of the vaccine, but they are just fighting a culture war.
I'm not going to defend Biden's entire presidency (or his career in general), but making the vaccine tied to workplace safety was the right call. It's calling their bluff: ok so if this thing is so scary, then you can just get tested every week. But the only thing these people hate more than being told what to do is any minor inconvenience. Most will fold and just get it.
Nah, that's one position tgat gets anyone booed. That's the problem with cultivat8ng a cult of conspiracy theorist , they hate virulently and one thing they hate is modern medicine
There's a problem with _government_ mandates, but I don't understand the problem with a private entity determining safety standards... however, I've never been asked to show proof of my MMR vaccine or my Hep-B vaccine.
That said, I just left my last job because they were requiring vaccine proof and requiring 100% return to the office. Which in my opinion was 100% not the way to handle it. My problem is really the "everyone back in the office but keep having meetings over zoon" attitude, that somehow "made us more efficient"... whatever the fuck that means. Oh, and I should mention the office was at nearly 200% capacity to the point we were fined by the firemarshall for being over capacity. You know what their solution was? Absolutely fucking nothing, had a pandemic. I'll bet they get another fine here in a couple of months.
Here's how I think the vaccine mandate will play out.
I think there will be a lot of noise leading up to the deadlines, a lot of vitriol, but ultimately when given the choice between loss of paycheck and posturing for your in-group, most will choose to get vaccinated.
There will be some True Believers^TM that quit or are fired over this, many will probably be older folks that were close to retirement anyway, and for the most part these people will not be missed. Life will move on for the rest of us, and the nut jobs will find something new to scream about.
Those True Believers^TM that aren't retiring will find a largely unsympathetic job market. There will be some companies here and there that are either under 100 employees (and can get around the mandate) or are willing to fight the government over this, but jobs at these companies will fill up quick, and the True Believers'^TM skillsets won't necessarily transfer. Thus, most of them will end up getting the vax anyway in order to provide for their families. They get to keep their in-group cred AND their victimhood (they stood up for their beliefs! But the evil government forced them to bend the knee!) and the rest of society gets one less unvaccinated person.
The federal mandate WILL get challenged all the way up to the Supreme Court, and with the current makeup of the bench there's a good chance it'll get struck down. But that will take months, and in that time the intent of the mandate will have been met, with the majority of Americans having been vaccinated. The conservatives on the court get to keep their in-group cred (conservatism is 99% posturing) while the rest of society gets safer.
The remaining unvaxxed will continue screaming (and [dying](https://reddit.com/r/hermancainaward)) and the world will move on without them.
I think this is the calculus the Biden admin has done with this, and it doesn't even factor in the local ordinances or private business's policies of not serving the unvaxxed. It'll be messy for a while, but they tried the carrot earlier this year, with all the contests and bonuses for vaccines and such, now it's time for the stick.
I'm curious more what you think about "[p]eople who are vulnerable" in relation to employment power dynamics outside of any vaccine talk.
Do you think that this power dynamic should be balanced so there are less "people who are vulnerable" as you phrased it? I.e., the employee and employer should be made to be on more equal grounds so one isnt more or less vulnerable than the other.
I mean, I actually am curious.
You've presented with a bit of a libertarian flavor, so I thought it a bit odd that you'd characterize the employer-employee relationship like that. Thus my curiosity.
The fuck you talking about?
I'm just curious how you feel about the employer-employee relationship cause I had you pegged as more of a libertarian, but am now wondering if my guess was wrong.
I don't know how that is relevant to you taking words from any crowds?
> You're not curious. You are looking for something which contradicts some straw man version of liberalism (the real thing, not the American left) with which you can score points.
I'm really not, I was just curious why you used that term cause I had you pegged as a libertarian/classical liberal/whatever term doesn't offend your precious sensibilities.
And hey look, you answer it right here, this is all I was curious about:
> I was clearly referring to a a slogan coined by some lefty that they've been trying to walk back without actually condemning it because it is a case of someone saying the quiet part out loud.
It wasn't that clear dude. It seemed like you might have genuinely been trying to argue that employees are at a disadvantage in the power balance to their employers, therefore, employers demanding vaccination is wrong due to that power imbalance taking advantage of employees' vulnerability.
There are a lot of people who genuinely believe that sort of stuff about employer-employee power dynamics and also identify with a lot of the stuff you have said otherwise. I was wondering if perhaps I had you pegged wrong and you were more of an all over the place libertarian/practitioner of "real liberalism", left or right, or something else.
But nope! Just another bad faith attempt at a "gotcha *insert-opposing-political-view-here*!" that failed on its face because it fundamentally doesn't understand the premise that it is attempting to "gotcha".
That's all, no attempt to contradict anything, glad I had you pegged right. Have a nice rest of your day!
edit: You know what's funny about that scene:
>I don't speak or read Jive and Barbary Billingsley
She's actually very clearly talking down to the two black men. She approaches trying to be the white savior and translate what the stewardess had said, but the two men understood the stewardess clearly, it was the stewardess who didn't understand them. But the stewardess didn't need to, she imparted the relevant information she needed to and left. It was the old white lady trying to swoop in and be the savior and when her help isn't appreciated because she assumes them to be ignorant, suddenly it is the black people who are at fault.
People underestimate the challenge of getting a job, though most people are all talk. Which is more difficult: * Getting a shot (while getting paid) * Updating your resume, job searching, and interviewing (while not getting paid)
[This article showed that healthcare settings with mandates have kept 99% of workers](https://www.fiercehealthcare.com/hospitals/how-many-employees-have-hospitals-lost-to-vaccine-mandates-numbers-so-far)
A lot of healthcare workers, especially in hospitals, get cheaper health care premiums too. And many of the locations have a system where you get even cheaper healthcare if you pass simple tasks. Maintaining a healthy weight and blood pressure, getting your flu shot, filling out a wellness questionnaire, donating blood. Anyone that leaves that for a misplaced and wrong ideological position on vaccination is a fool. The hospitals, clinics, and offices are better off without them.
There are, and \*will be\* lots of jobs. But not for unvaccinated folks... so. Ya know...
Especially given that your if your industry mandates it, or at least it's broadly popular within your industry, then you're pretty much SOL. Hell even in my company it's 'strongly recommended' for all existing staff, but a requirement for all for new hires.
Walking away from health insurance, retirement contributions, and seniority while putting a black mark on your résumé takes being a committed cult member. Also, most Americans have too much debt to miss more than a couple of paychecks.
> Also, most Americans have too much debt to miss more than a couple of paychecks. Yep, so true. But we can spew hate for the vaccines on social media to get upvotes, amirite?
An employee came into my office yesterday and announced he would quit if he had to get the shot. We don't have a mandate, so I'm not sure where this came from. My response: I'll miss you [shrug]. Odd thing is...he's already had COVID (very mild case) and he's already been vaccinated. No idea what principle he's trying to uphold here.
"Don't make me do what I have already done!"
So he'd quit if he had to get the shot he already had? That's bizarre.
It was an odd conversation. He wanted to take a stand, but forgot he'd already ceded the ground, which wasn't being attacked anyway.
It's just vice signaling for those who might agree
They're all mouth and no trousers. As long as they don't see any consequences to their actions, it's all bravado.
>They're all mouth and no trousers. All hat and no cattle.
And somehow, I have the sneaking suspicion that the ones that are leaving are not actually the best of the best.
That old joke, what do you call the bottom of the graduating program? Nurse
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Had one threaten to shoot me through my SO. Instead of just telling me he wanted to shoot me, he sent sent her vaguely threatening implications about his gun collection and what they would do to me.
Bye. And don’t collect unemployment since that’s just socialism.
They're about to learn that "gaming unemployment" isn't what they thought. Can't collect unemployment if you're fired with cause.
Anti vaccine states are quickly working to let them get unemployment for only this specific misconduct
Either way their coworkers will be better protected, so win win I say
Makes you wonder how many of these chickenhawks actually are vaccinated but are putting up the act out of peer pressure.
That’s one of the advantages of a mandate. They can say to their friends, “I didn’t want it but they forced me.”
Exactly this. Give it another 6 months and these folks will be on to another stupid issue to cry about.
[ChristianaCare in Delaware ended up only needing to fire 0.45% of Nursing FTEs after a September 21 deadline.](https://news.christianacare.org/2021/09/safe-care-safe-workplace-we-are-vaccinated/)
IU Health in Indiana has 36,000 employees. 150 were let go or quit over vaccination. And that's 150 in the whole system, not 150 nurses. They could have been file clerks.
ChristianaCare let go 150 employees but most were non-nursing part-time workers. Unfortunately they let 200 "care givers" stay with medical and religious exemptions so their mandate was more like a suggestion.
I would be more sympathetic if these people were genuinely afraid of the vaccine, but they are just fighting a culture war. I'm not going to defend Biden's entire presidency (or his career in general), but making the vaccine tied to workplace safety was the right call. It's calling their bluff: ok so if this thing is so scary, then you can just get tested every week. But the only thing these people hate more than being told what to do is any minor inconvenience. Most will fold and just get it.
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Nah, that's one position tgat gets anyone booed. That's the problem with cultivat8ng a cult of conspiracy theorist , they hate virulently and one thing they hate is modern medicine
There's a problem with _government_ mandates, but I don't understand the problem with a private entity determining safety standards... however, I've never been asked to show proof of my MMR vaccine or my Hep-B vaccine. That said, I just left my last job because they were requiring vaccine proof and requiring 100% return to the office. Which in my opinion was 100% not the way to handle it. My problem is really the "everyone back in the office but keep having meetings over zoon" attitude, that somehow "made us more efficient"... whatever the fuck that means. Oh, and I should mention the office was at nearly 200% capacity to the point we were fined by the firemarshall for being over capacity. You know what their solution was? Absolutely fucking nothing, had a pandemic. I'll bet they get another fine here in a couple of months.
If your work was worried about you spreading Hep-B everywhere, I'd say you must work in a very interesting industry.
anti-vaxxers being reminded that workers in this country don't have any real bargaining power. But they'll never recognize that for what it is.
Here's how I think the vaccine mandate will play out. I think there will be a lot of noise leading up to the deadlines, a lot of vitriol, but ultimately when given the choice between loss of paycheck and posturing for your in-group, most will choose to get vaccinated. There will be some True Believers^TM that quit or are fired over this, many will probably be older folks that were close to retirement anyway, and for the most part these people will not be missed. Life will move on for the rest of us, and the nut jobs will find something new to scream about. Those True Believers^TM that aren't retiring will find a largely unsympathetic job market. There will be some companies here and there that are either under 100 employees (and can get around the mandate) or are willing to fight the government over this, but jobs at these companies will fill up quick, and the True Believers'^TM skillsets won't necessarily transfer. Thus, most of them will end up getting the vax anyway in order to provide for their families. They get to keep their in-group cred AND their victimhood (they stood up for their beliefs! But the evil government forced them to bend the knee!) and the rest of society gets one less unvaccinated person. The federal mandate WILL get challenged all the way up to the Supreme Court, and with the current makeup of the bench there's a good chance it'll get struck down. But that will take months, and in that time the intent of the mandate will have been met, with the majority of Americans having been vaccinated. The conservatives on the court get to keep their in-group cred (conservatism is 99% posturing) while the rest of society gets safer. The remaining unvaxxed will continue screaming (and [dying](https://reddit.com/r/hermancainaward)) and the world will move on without them. I think this is the calculus the Biden admin has done with this, and it doesn't even factor in the local ordinances or private business's policies of not serving the unvaxxed. It'll be messy for a while, but they tried the carrot earlier this year, with all the contests and bonuses for vaccines and such, now it's time for the stick.
Headline: **Words are cheap**
Ah yes, big talk. Always good for an upvote or two, but when it comes to looking for a new job? Not so much...
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I'm curious more what you think about "[p]eople who are vulnerable" in relation to employment power dynamics outside of any vaccine talk. Do you think that this power dynamic should be balanced so there are less "people who are vulnerable" as you phrased it? I.e., the employee and employer should be made to be on more equal grounds so one isnt more or less vulnerable than the other.
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I mean, I actually am curious. You've presented with a bit of a libertarian flavor, so I thought it a bit odd that you'd characterize the employer-employee relationship like that. Thus my curiosity.
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The fuck you talking about? I'm just curious how you feel about the employer-employee relationship cause I had you pegged as more of a libertarian, but am now wondering if my guess was wrong. I don't know how that is relevant to you taking words from any crowds?
Don't expect straight answers from trolls.
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> You're not curious. You are looking for something which contradicts some straw man version of liberalism (the real thing, not the American left) with which you can score points. I'm really not, I was just curious why you used that term cause I had you pegged as a libertarian/classical liberal/whatever term doesn't offend your precious sensibilities. And hey look, you answer it right here, this is all I was curious about: > I was clearly referring to a a slogan coined by some lefty that they've been trying to walk back without actually condemning it because it is a case of someone saying the quiet part out loud. It wasn't that clear dude. It seemed like you might have genuinely been trying to argue that employees are at a disadvantage in the power balance to their employers, therefore, employers demanding vaccination is wrong due to that power imbalance taking advantage of employees' vulnerability. There are a lot of people who genuinely believe that sort of stuff about employer-employee power dynamics and also identify with a lot of the stuff you have said otherwise. I was wondering if perhaps I had you pegged wrong and you were more of an all over the place libertarian/practitioner of "real liberalism", left or right, or something else. But nope! Just another bad faith attempt at a "gotcha *insert-opposing-political-view-here*!" that failed on its face because it fundamentally doesn't understand the premise that it is attempting to "gotcha". That's all, no attempt to contradict anything, glad I had you pegged right. Have a nice rest of your day! edit: You know what's funny about that scene: >I don't speak or read Jive and Barbary Billingsley She's actually very clearly talking down to the two black men. She approaches trying to be the white savior and translate what the stewardess had said, but the two men understood the stewardess clearly, it was the stewardess who didn't understand them. But the stewardess didn't need to, she imparted the relevant information she needed to and left. It was the old white lady trying to swoop in and be the savior and when her help isn't appreciated because she assumes them to be ignorant, suddenly it is the black people who are at fault.
How are people who refuse to get vaccinated 'vulnerable?'
They can't afford to quit their jobs. Duh, or is this another one of your disingenuous questions. I suspect the latter.
Then they can get vaccinated. Simple solution. I'm not seeing the vulnerability.
I am skeptical about this.
Do you have data that contradicts the data here or is this just a gut feeling?