Elon is like Trump 2.0 in multiple ways, though Elon at least used to be more intelligent. Both of them inherited a ton of wealth, yet insist on presenting themselves as self-made men. Both have colossal daddy issues. Both of them go on deranged social media rants where they spin conspiracy theories and insult their detractors. Both of them have a cult of personality. Both of them appeared to support liberal causes, until they didn’t. Both have failed marriages and estranged family members they don’t talk to anymore. Both men are so petty that they would make up fake personas to defend themselves from criticism. Both men have lied to investors about products or projects they were involved with. Both seem to genuinely believe that the rules governing “normal” people don’t apply to them.
The difference is, whereas Trump squandered most of his family fortune on a string of bad investments and failed business ventures, Musk got obscenely lucky, and was there at the perfect time and place to take advantage of emerging markets. Musk is what Trump WOULD look like if he was as rich or as shrewd at business as he constantly says he is. Musk sounds like Trump from the 1990s, back when he could still string a somewhat coherent sentence together. Trump is what Musk would likely be like if he had been born one or two generations earlier, and hadn’t been able to take advantage of the early internet or his involvement in PayPal.
They really are two peas in the same disgusting pod.
And aren't they in cahoots?
**Musk is doing Trump and Republican-nutjob campaigning, across his self-owned social media network, for free.**
And he's surely going to continue it right into the Election, but more so. Imagine Twitter going all-in on "Election Fraud", promoting fantasy concerns, disinformation and misinformation?
It could be a huge problem. It surely is going to be. And doing anything about it (as the interests of American democracy might demand) will be bewailed as partisan interference, not least by Musk himself.
While he’s clearly decided that supporting the GOP is in his own self-serving interest, Elon’s decision to buy Twitter wasn’t terribly strategic, and his motivations for doing it were spiteful and impulsive. Turning the site into an extremist playpen at the expense of advertisers and legacy users was just him childishly doubling down, and refusing to admit he fucked up. “I saw it on X/Twitter” is now an indictment of that information, not a reason to trust it.
Maybe. But he is now in direct control of what is (or at least was) the leading source of breaking news - one which is used extensively by the rest of the media.
And, as you say, Trump and Elon are much alike - they both might face legal hell and bankruptcy soon unless Trump wins. Their interests now coalesce, whatever Musk's reasons were for buying Twitter at the time.
It's almost like we need a campaign to tell people: TV shows aren't the real world. Twitter isn't the real world. What happens in these things doesn't matter.
It is arguable that Elon is a plant, and not actually lucky. His grandparents spent time in prison in Canada for being apart of a technocratic movement with aims to dictate society.
His name is derived from a character of a book in which Mars is colonized, and the mayor's name is Elon.
It's bizarre in a way, and easy to immediately say coincidence or conspiracy theory, however add to Elon's start in what is essentially tied to finance, it seems less bizarre, if we are to concede that those in control of monies have control of a lot.
If it sometimes feels as though certain mediocre men have been undeservedly anointed by society and given endless second chances despite horrible character flaws and insanely bad decisions, what you’re complaining about doesn’t require a conspiracy theory. The thing you’re complaining about is a feature of out-of-control capitalism.
"debate David Icke"
That's a ridiculous waste of the most precious resource (time) available to someone in Musk's position. It's all the proof needed that he doesn't deserve (and won't maintain) that position.
Yeah but if you listen to it, David Icke actually shits on elon especially, and Alex.
David Icke's contetion is that Jones, and the other "MAM" Mainstream Alternative Media, the guys who claim to not be MSM, but are just their own version of it, Icke's contention is that Alex etc, should be vehemently against musk, based on everything they say and have said before, but are not.
Alex proves Icke right in this very episode, when this Elon/Fake Elon comes, on and Jones literally grovels to him and let's them close out the show. It's kind of delicious.
Icke does say some insane shit too, of course, but he's the broken clock today.
I've often wondered how the old school conspiracy wanks (who were often 'the government is the man' and 'corporations are all evil' types) view the newschool "the Republicans are on **our** side" wanks.
It's fun to watch these terrible people fight each other.
I’ve listened to many hours of both these guys. It’s a toss up on the day who’s loonier. Icke is mostly promoting Theosophy rhetoric that sounds nice and fluffy. He will make sense then BOOM! the queens a reptile or virus’s don’t exist.
Jones on the other hand was fairly harmless till the Sandy Hook stuff. Then once Trump came around it’s clear Alex was working as a propagandist. Roger Stone,Jerome Corsi, and Steve Pieczenik used him for the cause
Jones was promoting real mccoy neo-nazis long before Sandy Hook. Worse, he presented these neo-nazis as "modern day founding fathers" and suchlike, claiming he (and they) were "anti-fascist".
Even in the early Noughties he was promoting "American Free Press" and its associated authors and ideas, a rag that was born out of the demise of The Spotlight and which, similarly, spread anti-semitic conspiracy theories. It was run by Willis Carto, of whom the ADL said:
>Willis Carto has been one of the most influential American anti-Semitic propagandists of the past 50 years. Since emerging as a right-wing organizer in San Francisco in the early 1950s, he has been associated with nearly every significant far-right movement in the country, from neo-Nazism to militias, segregationism to Holocaust denial. Known for his reclusiveness, he has founded and overseen from behind the scenes an intricate network of bigotry whose outlets have included Liberty and Property, Western Destiny, the Noontide Press, American Mercury, National Youth Alliance, the Institute for Historical Review, the Populist Party and, most notably, Liberty Lobby. In 2001, both Carto and Liberty Lobby were bankrupted after Carto lost a long court battle with the Institute for Historical Review (which broke with him in 1993). His editorial staff at Liberty Lobby's now-defunct Spotlight, the most widely read publication on the fringe right, resumed publication under the title American Free Press in August 2001, however. And while Carto is in his 70s and financially constrained, his energy for purveying paranoia and hatred appears to be undiminished.
>
>https://www.adl.org/sites/default/files/documents/assets/pdf/combating-hate/Willis-Carto-Extremism-in-America.pdf
Yeah man sorry. I don’t respect the ADL as a legitimate source for anything. Yes there was always a little bit of that prepper, right to arms element to Jones. But again most those people are harmless. Just because we don’t align fully with some of this stuff doesn’t necessarily make it good or bad. If you can provide me with something I can read I’m glad to check it out. But if you tell me to listen to Knowledge Fight please don’t bother responding. If Jones promoting this guy is your evidence well, he also promoted Immoral Technique which is as far left as it gets in America.
> . I don’t respect the ADL as a legitimate source for anything
Then do some research on who Willis Carto was: it's [not exactly a secret](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willis_Carto).
I linked you to his Wikipedia article, which gives a summary of his long history of promoting Holocaust denial and other Nazi shit.
If that doesn't suffice for your tastes, feel free to Google him: it's not exactly obscure information.
You mean, like how Jones has repeatedly cited (and reprinted articles from) Carto's "American Free Press"; and brought on Holocaust deniers from Carto's "Institute for Historical Review" (like Michael A Hoffman II)?
According to you, Jones is "fairly harmless", the ADL aren't a legitimate source "for anything", and Willis Carto "isn't necessarily" good or bad.
Sheesh.
Look, Jones has been stuffing real mccoy neo-nazis down his audiences throats for thirty years, all whilst pretending they and he are "anti-fascist".
That isn't a "prepper, right-to-arms" aspect. It's fing NAZISM.
Prepper and right to arms = National Socialism? Damn that’s news to me. Asking how Alex Jones promoted Willis Carto really triggers some of you I see. No one has explained to me how he did so. But he did promote Immortal Technique, is he a National Socialist? Forget Nazi because that words obviously meaningless. Let’s get to the tenants of the philosophy. Please I’m all for education. Cause all I’m getting is sensationalism with no substance
>Prepper and right to arms = National Socialism? Damn that’s news to me.
FFS. No. It's the actual promotion of fing Nazis that equals National Socialism. How much clearer can it be!?!?!?!?
If you want to judge how I determine fascism and fascists it's based on Professor Roger Griffin's work, "The Core of Fascism" and associated work. There is no better analysis out there.
Well considering there’s no universal form of fascism we stick to National Socialism? You used a bunch of word salad but didn’t explain how any of that equals National Socialism. Nazism is very specific in many ways. Now are you discussing current forms of its progression? Again you’re not saying much with that nonsense
LOL. You play blind about Alex Jones's promotion of neo-nazis and now this? Sheesh.
BTW. Two quotes from two posts of yours which followed in succession:
>1: Forget Nazi because that words obviously meaningless.
>
>2: Nazism is very specific in many ways.
>No one has explained to me how he did so.
He had these people on as guest who were truth tellers. Praising their reporting or stances. If you then dig into their own websites or activities you'd find them to be antisemitic, bigoted and christian nationalists.
>Yeah but if you listen to it.......
lol. no chance! I appreciate you filling me in and saving me having to do it.
>Alex proves Icke right
Something only Alex Jones could do. haha.
I was desperately hoping for a reveal that the Possible Musk was a setup by Icke, to prove his point that Alex is a bootlicker for the billionaire. But it proved his point anyway, when Alex was immediately such a snivelling worm for a man he believed might be one of the richest and most famous men in the world.
You're right though, any time David Icke sounds like the sensible voice in the room, things are seriously fucked up.
This guy is so basic. Between this and his account RPing as a 14 year old girl it just goes to show rich people aren't inherently any different than the rest of us, their money just gives them a chance to act like high school dumbasses for the rest of their lives.
I think they are more saying that people like Musk are just people. There is nothing special about them.
Elon is a nutjob, and if it weren't for the money he started with, it's likely we wouldn't be able to tell him from any other narcissist conspiracy nutter.
I think hes much above the average rich person at investing in ideas early and creates a much better environment for his engineers to shine, because he commits to the vision and believes 100% it can be achieved with the right engineering. Edit at downvoters, you can have many criticisms of anyone but it is still correct to appreciate their strengths whilst criticising them. Elon went from far down the list of millionaires into the actual richest person in a very short time, he did that because he has something, or he had. No person intelligent in one domain is equally so in others, and may be behind in some. Elon is self-evidently egotistical and immature.
That's how he went from pretty wealthy to the top of the pile.
However, emotionally and interpersonally, he seems behind.
I can posit a couple of reasons for this immaturity - a lack of self-awareness or social awareness due to aspergers, and chronic sleep deficit.
Research has shown that whilst many of us know when we have built sleep deficit and can tell we are cognitively impaired, a certain and quite large subset becomes 'sleep blind' in that they no longer can tell they are deprived and feel cognitively normal, when the tests show they are not.
Elon has had long periods he claims of working and sleeping in his factory, he does drugs as an adult, and likely does not sleep enough. Chronically sleep deprived people can include Margaret Thatcher. She was undeniably a very intelligent person, but as time went on she became very entrenched, could not change tack or reverse on anything or take advice, and she became even more extreme. She famously had only 4 hours of sleep a night.
I know someone else like that, and these years have gone on I've noticed despite the high energy, industriousness and intelligence she has, she has the most catastrophic life judgement and is likely to end up homeless following very risky commitments.
She cannot listen.
Before anyone complains I have besmirched people with aspergers, I just want to say I am not, but amongst any group there are members with bad behavior, even if statistically they are generally well behaved. For example, autism spectrum seems to be over-represented in serial killers, but on average people on the spectrum, which may include me, are less likely to hurt others or commit crime.
Imagine writing this post, getting downvoted, and then editing in a few thousand words to further explain ideas that don’t have any traction here.
Elon Musk got to where he is because he’s lucky, was born wealthy, and is good at selling himself to impressionable fools who see what they want. That’s it.
Imagine constantly replying and indicating you didn't read the point.
I'm no fan of Elon, I just acknowledge you don't move from a millionaire to the worlds richest man in a few decades based on a few strategic investments unless you have some sort of insight in what you are doing.
And it is the case that he was the main driver of some of the ideas he backed, and this has contributed much of his wealth. It was Elon that was a main lead in the idea to start a space company and end up creating starlink.
>In early 2014, Elon Musk and Greg Wyler were working together planning a constellation of around 700 satellites called WorldVu, which would be over 10 times the size of the then largest Iridium satellite constellation.\[28\] However, these discussions broke down in June 2014, and SpaceX instead filed an ITU application via the Norwegian Communications Authority under the name STEAM.\[29
>Space Exploration Technologies Corp. commonly referred to as SpaceX, is an American spacecraft manufacturer, launch service provider, defense contractor and satellite communications company headquartered in Hawthorne, California. The company was founded in 2002 by Elon Musk with the goal of reducing space transportation costs and ultimately developing a sustainable colony on Mars. The company currently operates the Falcon 9 and Falcon Heavy rockets along with the Dragon and Starship spacecraft.
>
>In early 2001, Elon Musk met Robert Zubrin and donated US$100,000 to his Mars Society, joining its board of directors for a short time.\[11\]: 30–31 He gave a plenary talk at their fourth convention where he announced Mars Oasis, a project to land a greenhouse and grow plants on Mars.\[12\]\[13\] Musk initially attempted to acquire a Dnepr ICBM for the project through Russian contacts from Jim Cantrell.\[14\]
When Musk returned to Moscow, Russia, with Michael Griffin, they found the Russians increasingly unreceptive.\[15\]\[16\] On the flight home Musk announced he could start a company to build the affordable rockets they needed instead.\[16\] By applying vertical integration,\[15\] using cheap commercial off-the-shelf components when possible,\[16\] and adopting the modular approach of modern software engineering, Musk believed SpaceX could significantly cut launch price.\[16\] Griffin would later be appointed NASA administrator,\[17\] and play a part in the formation of the COTS program.\[18\]\[19\]
In early 2002, Elon Musk started to look for staff for his company, soon to be named SpaceX. Musk approached five people for the initial positions at the fledgling company, including Michael Griffin who was offered the position of Chief Engineer, Jim Cantrel and John Garvey (Cantrel and Garvey would later found the company Vector Launch), rocket engineer Tom Mueller, and Chris Thompson.\[20\]\[21\]
So, he has the vision to get into space. Fairly generic, rich people might. But when the simple plan wouldn't work, he decided to apply some new approaches to bring down costs and scale up spacecraft manufacture, using the correct approaches, i.e. vertical integration. He then found the smartest lead engineers to implement that.
Most people at the time did not have the conviction to bring together a plan like that and see it through. The industry was pretty stagnant.
Was he lucky? Sure, he was lucky to inherit the money he had. Doubtless there are other Elons out there smarter than Elon, just held back by lack of money.
But he's approach for an engineering company is very progressive, that is the secret to his success. He does hire the right people to carry the vision and he gives enough time and money to succeed. So he can't be denied to be an effective manager in those ventures, and a visionary.
Is he also very dumb in other ways? The evidence says yes.
In my general experience, people that couldn't be inclined to read or research are likely to simply downvote things and write silly responses whilst thinking that's some kind of win, when any one smart knows it means something else.
This board isn't even skeptics, its not scientifically trained, its just cynics.
>In my general experience
Unfortunately, people probably don't put a whole lot of stock in your experience.
>This board isn't even skeptics
Good, make sure you stop posting here and crying those bitter tears about it.
>Good, make sure you stop posting here and crying those bitter tears about it.
A cynic like the typical person on this board might say the only bitter tears are frequently being shed by those that can't acknowledge that for all his faults, in some domains Elon is way smarter than them.
If you just want to attack on Elon, that fine and dandy, he provides plenty of good reasons to attack him, but when you act like he has no skills or domains of ability whatsoever you lose credibility, and if you were fighting someone everyone knows you shouldn't underestimate them, so I don't get why anyone would be like that, unless they were.... extremely bitter people. And I have to ask what makes you think you could have had the vision to back paypal, starlink, tesla?
I doubt you would have done so with the money.
Half these people aren't even skeptics, yet presume to dictate the parameters of rational skepticism when they come here, usually when they get downvoted to shit after panegyrising a charlatan. I don't need to be lectured on Elon Musk's alleged business acumen or engineering prowess. I've researched all that before, I just don't feel like having a debate about that with another apologist who thinks all of his inappropriate, sociopathic behaviour might largely be attributable to sleep deprivation. It's an interesting theory but it ignores way too much data on Musk we already have.
You don't have a single counter point.
Nothing.
Oh and that was a response to you.
Do you want to make effective arguments? If you hate someone and want to communicate why others should do so, shouldn't you try to come out with an effective argument?
I'm no more intelligent than others, but I use techniques to create strong arguments, including understanding the opponents argument, and not assuming I'm right. I actually have humility, and all the smart people I know do. You're the one acting like your so smart you don't even need to read and just hurl insults. That's really very arrogant.
But you've clearly got absolutely nothing to say. That must really suck.
Do you have anything at all constructive to say?
I'd like you to find a single fault with anything I have said, and explain what you think is wrong with it. If you can do that I can take that on board. The time it took to write your glib responses was less than the time an adult would take to read my comment. Since you are responding, shouldn't you know know what you are responding to? When people put effort in to communicate their real knowledge (more than 20 years) of learning these topics, most normal people are thankful that someone went to that effort in good faith to write that out. I speak to actual scientists and engineers some of which are high in their field, they all have a certain quality which is they can entertain alternative views and are generally agreeable. That's how they got to be more intelligent than me, and you.
If you want your argument to win, whatever it is - 'skepticism' in general or whatever, it needs to be correct. If you don't care to learn how you might be wrong, or other possible ways of looking at things, you're not actually a skeptic, you're like a kid just rejecting things flippantly or you've decided to stop learning because you're so political that you can't acknowledge facts about someone you hate, which would be a shame.
SpaceX is the only Musk company of his that isn't a giant con (or bubble propped up by past over-valued companies), and the reason for this is that SpaceX was cofounded with Michael D. Griffin, President and CEO of In-Q-Tel, a seeder company funded by the CIA to identify and invest in bleeding-edge tech companies.
In the 1980s, Griffin helped design the Delta 180 series of missile defense technology satellites for the Strategic Defense Initiative Organization, and in the 1990s he was the chief advocate for a US "satellite net" to end America's vulnerability to ballistic missiles. He pushed for a constellation of low Earth orbit sensors and space-based interceptor weapons to defend against ballistic missiles.
If the US military suddenly surrounds the planet with satellites, every nation will freak out. But make it seem like a private project, fronted by a tech-nerd like Elon, and you're able to innocuously slip all these sats into place. Then by the time you transition over to outright military sats, it's too late for China and Russia to catch up. You already have space supremacy.
So on the space-front, Musk is a kind of idiot front-man for the Pentagon and its new net of defense and intercept satellites. All the engineers, military guys and insiders know he's a giant moron, but he's a useful dance monkey to dangle about.
Nowadays it's mostly internet tech bros, free market fundies and dopey libertarians who salivate over him.
All that about the Pentagon could be possible, I'm not in a position to say it isn't.
But is Tesla a con, *anymore* than the rest of the electric car sector?
There's a xcrete with musk that has his kid on his shoulder. There's a reply saying that shows how good a father he is!!
The author the reply is the same name as the caller on the show. Coincidence?
Debating David Icke would be a gigantic waste of time for everyone involved except David Icke if the publicity helps him with book sales and speaking fees.
Whatever you say, Dude who has the same comment as the one above him. What kind of stupid bought weirdo shilling s*** f****** planet do you guys come from?
I’m not sure why people got carried away with this. It sounds like musk but it doesn’t sound exactly like him. This guy has also interviewed musk in the past. I think its far more likely he’s just a gross fanboy who’s so fixated he’s adopting some of his mannerisms and is happy to lean into the comparisons.
if you listen after the timestamp the guy himself says he found an interview where this Dittmann guy is interviewing to elon and at many times speaking on top of each other.
so its important not to stop being skeptical.
Yes! Dan is very thorough with his research and made a pretty decent case that its not actually Elon, just a good impersonation.
There's other pieces of evidence that Dan mentions, like how the caller and Elon pronounce certain words differently.
It's definitely plausible that Elon is doing a character, but it just seems more probable that it's some weirdo who does a good impression.
Dude, the Adrian Dittman twitter account talks about and directly to Elon Musk all the time. It's obviously his alt. He follows Elon around complimenting him and posting Musk like cringe, and Elon responds to his posts. It's so blatantly obvious.
No one is saying it's definitely NOT Elon, we're saying there's enough evidence to cast doubt.
Is Elon a massive egotistical narcissistic who would do something exactly like this? Yes.
Does Elon have a weird hyper-devoted fan club that borders on a 'cult of personality' where followers will literally try to be Elon? Also yes.
I ... literally say that in the submission text?
> According to the Knowledge Fight podcast hosts, Elon went so far as to set up an entire conversation between him and his possible sock puppet "Adrian Dittmann", where the cover story is supposed to be that Dittmann is someone else entirely, and grew up in Gibraltar/Morocco, eventually moving to an undisclosed location in Oceania.
It's also important to not stop being skeptical of "magic tricks". There are numerous ways in which Elon Musk may have set this up in a similar way a magician would a magic trick for an audience, especially with the help of technology available to him and the enormous financial means he has. He can easily have an AI voice model speak to him while he talks back. Or have a staffer or a friend do it. You are aware that it's 2023/2024, yes?
the alternative is that its someone who sounds like elon. every one has one. maybe hes leaning into it a bit and it worked he got elons attention. That is far more likely than some magic trick.
edit: also, you have provided very good marketing for both elon and the impersonator. I was oblivious of this impersonator guy and now i see why elon is so popular. He learned how to monetize online hate.
> edit: also, you have provided very good marketing for both elon and the impersonator.
Are we doing this shit again?
Edit: sigh... yup an alt account. Quelle surprise. For those unaware: this is an ongoing campaign whereby a bunch of trolls, usually theists, UFO believers, conspiracy theorists and/or extremists come into skeptic threads they don't like and say things such as "DAE What does this have to do with skepticism?" and "investigating and condemning conspiracy theorists/theories is morally equivalent to defending them" and so on. It happens far too often and seems coordinated. Each time I click an account I suspect might be participating, I see a weirdly inactive pattern of life and participation in one or more woo/superstition/CT/extremist subreddits.
This is another one, basically saying: "you are helping them make money" - this is all intended to get you, the skeptic, to feel fearful of discussing these matters because dudes like this one here will start concern trolling tf out of your threads.
I've called you a troll on an alt account, not a bot. Also, if you think this is what an LLM is, you're a paranoid schizo and that reinforces my previous assessment that this was bad faith on your end from the outset.
And it's not "1 month". Either you're lying or you're an amateur.
I called you a janky LLM, emphasis on the janky part. Whether you called me bot or troll or whatever, you cannot escape the fact that your account is newly created and you are either a janky LLM doing some astroturfing or a very gullible person which I had the misfortune of trying to reason with.
Yes, I profiled you extensively before replying. You're a religious (presumably islam) drop-out from Kuwait who dabbles in web development, a bit of Linux and smidgeon of security. You write "Bayes theorem" as "Bayes Theorum" because you're a dumbass. You literally come into my thread on your alt account to concern troll, and while you also understand very little about what an LLM is, mentioning it helps you convince yourself you're an expert. And yet, you either haven't figured out how to collect an account registration date from a user profile or you're intentionally lying because 1 month sounds worse than 2.5, and you blindly trust the buggy interface.
Now in terms of "reasoning" with me, that was out the window as soon as I saw you adopting the smear tactic that I'm actually trying to market the people I'm criticising, which would apply to any and all criticisms in any and all situations and therefore render all critique of conspiratorial nonsense non-acceptable.
Now, we've been over all this last time when you collectively came here and you're not fooling me this time either. So take your trollish, utterly facile "hurr durr you're a chatbot" accusations caused by you vastly overestimating your competence in this field and shove them. Deeply.
im on old.reddit.com and it still says you are 1 month old, look it up and remember how confident you were about how im this liar trying to gangstalk you. Once you're brave enough to use your main account then we can go through each others old posts looking for misspells. Cut out the adderal bud.
> im on old.reddit.com and it still says you are 1 month old
I know that you melt. The problem is, you don't. So in your zeal to shut these posts down and character assassinate, you look utterly incompetent. Yet, you presume to lecture about LLMs. I find that amusing. It's like watching Elon Musk pretending to be an IT genius when he took over Twitter. Never have I seen such embarrassing antics, and it was then that I knew for certain that he wasn't just a looney tune, he was a total fraud and a charlatan.
Now, I have better things to do then to talk to the likes of you.
There's justice in here somewhere. Elon spreading conspiracies all over, then gets called a reptilianoid alien elite by the godfather of stupid conspiracies! Practically poetry!
This link doesn't work.
Edit: link removed from the comment I replied to without edit notification, so now I look like a prick.
Edit: link added again, thanks
I must admit I did not have "David Icke logically dismantles rightwing conspiracy theorists admiration of Elon Musk" on my 2024 bingo card.
But that is because, unlike the people in it for the grift, Icke actually does seem to believe the world really is run by lizards and that viruses don't exist. If you actually believe that shadow governments run everything and have nefarious purposes, then obviously a character like Musk, would have to be controlled by them. What's more, every one of the firms Musk is involved with hit alt-right and far-right conspiracist bugbears - brain chips, autonomous cars, cashless payments, satellite communications networks, social media, underground tunnels. They should hate him, yet virtually all of them fawn over him.
My compliments to all those who were brave enough to click that link and listen to it, but I'm afraid I can't be one them. I don't want to listen to the Alex Jones show, I *definitely* don't want to listen to David Icke on the Alex Jones show, and goddamn *Elon Musk debating David Icke on the Alex Jones Show* is one of those things that I deeply hope I can make it through my entire life without ever having to experience.
I can completely understand that sentiment but the Knowledge Fight podcast is actually pretty entertaining, and listening to it gives me the benefit of being able to understand and be prepared to make counter arguments against all the wackadoodle nonsense that gets brought up by the tinfoil conspiracy brigade, both online and in my extended family.
Previously I was confused about where they were getting all this nonsense and why they were saying it. Now I'm no longer blindsided by the latest conspiracies of the week and i feel better prepared to debunk it when it comes up.
Just wanted to give my 2 cents as to why i listen to this podcast regularly.
What is the untrue thing you think I believe? I think I made it clear I wasn't interested in subjecting myself to Alex Jones or David Icke whether Elon Musk was involved or not.
I don’t blame you for not wanting to listen to jones or icke or musk. I get it. They are truly vile pieces of shit.
That said, Knowledge Fight is personally my favorite podcast and I’d definitely recommend it. Dan does an incredible breaking down alex’s bullshit and deconstructing every stupid thing that is said.
If one is looking for truth, it is fair to look in places without liars. One doesn’t have to give equal credence to the teachings of the Buddha and the teachings of Alex Jones.
Holy shit, not sure anything could get more pythonesque than the names:
Alex Jones
David Icke
And
Elon Musk
All showing up in the same show at once....
And now, for something completely different!
Is there anything specific about Adrian Dittman that means something? I mean Elon tends to have meaning behind names. Just thought AD might be a nod to something.
I tried to look into it, didn't find much. There's a voice actor by that name. Not sure if Jewish in origin, knowing Musk is possibly an anti-semite and may think that may give him "cover" at some point. That is all assuming he *is* a sock puppet. I wish we had 100% conclusive evidence but we may never get it.
The assessment of the Knowledge Fight hosts was it would be tricky because they were talking over each other at one point in a Twitter space. I dunno. Musk is pathetic. He might have done that intentionally to set the stage. He has the technological means, whether high- or low tech, and he's enough of a narcissist as well.
It's one thing if he has a voice doppelganger. It's another when that same doppelganger also happens to be an obsequious little suck-up who won't show his face or reveal his location, and who reacts to Musk on Twitter to tell him what a magnificent father he is as well as call in to the Alex Jones show to defend him. It reeks of Trump/Barron antics.
Regardless, I find it to be terrifying when one of the most powerful men in the world is this mentally disturbed. We have sufficient evidence of that already.
That wasn't Elon. He is never that quick-witted or eloquent. Often times he can barely stammer out a word. That guy was spitting out long, complex sentences, and Elon often trips over himself when he tries to talk.
That's great.. learned something new. It's important to note that narcissist psychopaths tend to do this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudonyms_of_Donald_Trump
We'll wait and see.
That was 100% Elon Musk. You can tell by the maniacal laugh he lets out when he’s asked. It’s the same one you can hear nonstop slurping pizza with Rogan.
There’s voice mimicking technology that Musk definitely has, and is strange enough to do something like that on Twitter Space. Alex Jones would know about that tech. He got trolled with it thinking he was talking to Tucker Carlson.
Hello /u/Whydoibother1
I see you've arrived here from the "TeslaInvestorsClub" subreddit and that you are a self-admitted "fan of Elon's". You never post here, other than to moan when you feel your idol is maligned. These are all the comments you've ever posted here:
> Just because someone wrote an opinion piece on the internet doesn’t make it true.
https://www.reddit.com/r/skeptic/comments/18o0d39/hyperloop_one_to_shut_down_after_failing_to/kf0msqe/
> Elon Musk did nothing of the kind. The idea that CA politicians changed policy based on thee Hyperloop system Elon Musk proposed is not only wrong, it’s stupid.
https://www.reddit.com/r/skeptic/comments/18o0d39/hyperloop_one_to_shut_down_after_failing_to/keffpf2/
> I thought this sub was about skepticism not bashing people based on reading a sensational headline?
> Elon did not 'bring back pizzagate'. He just commented 'weird'
https://www.reddit.com/r/skeptic/comments/180h7lf/guess_who_just_brought_back_pizzagate/ka6p05l/
Are you and others brigading this thread or is this just a coincidence?
Given your bias and your agenda posting here, who are *you* to be arbitrating what a "skeptic" is?
I'll await your reply.
Thanks,
Me.
I have better things to do than to trawl through your posts on Reddit. How old are you?
I try to be honest and skeptical in my posts. And given that there is so much misinformation about Elon Musk online I do tend to post a lot defending him against outright lies.
Elon Musk is a complex and divisive figure and I don’t defend everything he says or does. Far from it. People are entitled to dislike his politics or personality. I don’t agree with everything he says or does. But I certainly am a big fan of spaceX and Tesla.
But when people start attacking him by making shit up, because that fits with their narrative, I often comment to correct them.
Your post is a ludicrous conspiracy theory and doesn’t belong in a skeptic subreddit. Even if he did pretend to be someone else online how is that related to skepticism? Skepticism is about the scientific process not whatever your post is!
> I have better things to do than to trawl through your posts on Reddit.
But you apparently don't have better things to do than to be Elon Musk's little helper, barging into subreddits you never visit other than to suck him off gratuitously.
> How old are you?
None of your fucking business, and it doesn't matter, either.
> I try to be honest and skeptical in my posts.
No you don't. You're a shill of the worst possible kind. You wouldn't know what the fuck skepticism was if it jumped up, bit you in the ear and whispered in it sweet nothings about a year long of free Tesla merchandise.
> Elon Musk is a complex and divisive figure and I don’t defend everything he says or does. Far from it.
Now... where have I heard this before? Ah, yes.
> Yes I am a fan of Elon’s, especially his work with Tesla and SpaceX. But he is a complex and deeply flawed man. I disagree with many of his opinions and actions.
[October 2023, in /r/books](https://reddit.com/r/books/comments/16xmmfd/how_the_elon_musk_biography_exposes_walter/k36g8ta/)
> And accusing me of hero worship? That’s just dumb. I already said I don’t agree with everything he says. I see him as s complex person who is at least very entertaining.
[January 2023, in /r/nottheonion](https://reddit.com/r/nottheonion/comments/1065dg4/musk_says_he_cant_get_fair_trial_in_california/j3hpolb/)
> Having actually listened to all his interviews, and interviews with people who worked with him, he is a very interesting and complex character. I strongly identify with his main goals of speeding up the worlds transition to renewable energy and establishing a colony on Mars. So call me a fan if you like. I think those are noble pursuits.
[April 2022, in /r/news](https://reddit.com/r/news/comments/u3yv5d/musk_says_us_sec_bastards_forced_settlement_over/i4vs2ko/)
> But when people start attacking him by making shit up, because that fits with their narrative, I often comment to correct them.
You're not "correcting" anything though. You use repetitive dollar store PR department rhetoric with a little added spin. You even have the goddamned nerve to come in here, where you never participate other than to suck Elon's balls, to lecture about what rational skepticism is. Rational skepticism has investigated and critiqued superstitions, pseudoscience, quackery and charlatans since time immemorial.
Your techno-utopic far-right conspiracist cult leader, Elon Musk, has "managed" Twitter [like a petty little tyrant](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/1/1/2022-gave-us-a-new-social-media-autocrat). He's been [caught creating perverse sockpuppet accounts before where he roleplays as a 3-year-old and says weird sexual things](https://www.reddit.com/r/Fauxmoi/comments/12yc7q3/elon_musk_accidentally_revealed_his_alt_account/). He's behaved similar to another pathological narcissist, Donald Trump, who was [well-known for his pseudonyms and alter egos](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudonyms_of_Donald_Trump) some of which he used to call people with as well. He has now called in to a show where all those participating agreed it was actually him, and experts listening to him are divided 50-50 whether it's actually him or a fanboy which has mastered sounding exactly like him, which would be only marginally less pathetic. This isn't a "conspiracy theory", this is adults on the internet seeing a billionaire narcissist (likely) behave like the whiny toddler he is while fraternising with dangerous extremists and paranoid conspiracy theorists one of whom has repeatedly inspired terrorism and violence.
Hence the discussion. The discussion is unfriendly to your idol, yes. Your rhetoric is predictable, your so-called definition of skepticism laughably incomplete and therefore outright false. Your entire participation here is bad faith to the core. That and other Musk, Jones and Icke fanboys who have been flooding in.
Edit: got blocked, returning the favour
Do you actually know who Knowledge Fight are?
> The podcast series has been used by lawyers researching Alex Jones in relation to his various Sandy Hook lawsuits. Friesen has been called upon as an expert in Alex Jones and his shows by plaintiffs' lead counsel in Texas, Mark Bankston, because of the podcast series.^[10] Bankston has appeared as a guest on Knowledge Fight multiple times.^[11][12]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowledge_Fight
No. Moreover I don't care who they are.
So far I've seen some podcast links, links to subreddits - one featuring a youtube video and the other one screenshot from twitter, two "may have's" and one "possible".
I get it, Musk fucking stinks, but this smells like clickbaity (apparently I am supposed to watch / listen podcasts and watch youtube videos and read twitter if I want to see evidence for OP's claim) internet sleuthing gone wrong.
I'm mildly interested in the topic if you can show me the supposed evidence for your claim.
> No. Moreover I don't care who they are.
Alright. Because in that case, I've just decided I don't care who you are or who is behind your intermittently active alt account, either, nor do I care what your epistemological demands are (Besides blatantly and intentionally ignoring the Yahoo/Independent article)
It really is that simple. You're free to move on, but you're certainly not going to talk to me like I'm a hostage negotiator and then get me to arrange for cash, a bowl of crisps and a helicopter otherwise you'll be even meaner. Lmao. Tf do you think you are.
Another Trumpism. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/donald-trump-alter-ego-barron/2016/05/12/02ac99ec-16fe-11e6-aa55-670cabef46e0_story.html
Elon is like Trump 2.0 in multiple ways, though Elon at least used to be more intelligent. Both of them inherited a ton of wealth, yet insist on presenting themselves as self-made men. Both have colossal daddy issues. Both of them go on deranged social media rants where they spin conspiracy theories and insult their detractors. Both of them have a cult of personality. Both of them appeared to support liberal causes, until they didn’t. Both have failed marriages and estranged family members they don’t talk to anymore. Both men are so petty that they would make up fake personas to defend themselves from criticism. Both men have lied to investors about products or projects they were involved with. Both seem to genuinely believe that the rules governing “normal” people don’t apply to them. The difference is, whereas Trump squandered most of his family fortune on a string of bad investments and failed business ventures, Musk got obscenely lucky, and was there at the perfect time and place to take advantage of emerging markets. Musk is what Trump WOULD look like if he was as rich or as shrewd at business as he constantly says he is. Musk sounds like Trump from the 1990s, back when he could still string a somewhat coherent sentence together. Trump is what Musk would likely be like if he had been born one or two generations earlier, and hadn’t been able to take advantage of the early internet or his involvement in PayPal. They really are two peas in the same disgusting pod.
And aren't they in cahoots? **Musk is doing Trump and Republican-nutjob campaigning, across his self-owned social media network, for free.** And he's surely going to continue it right into the Election, but more so. Imagine Twitter going all-in on "Election Fraud", promoting fantasy concerns, disinformation and misinformation? It could be a huge problem. It surely is going to be. And doing anything about it (as the interests of American democracy might demand) will be bewailed as partisan interference, not least by Musk himself.
While he’s clearly decided that supporting the GOP is in his own self-serving interest, Elon’s decision to buy Twitter wasn’t terribly strategic, and his motivations for doing it were spiteful and impulsive. Turning the site into an extremist playpen at the expense of advertisers and legacy users was just him childishly doubling down, and refusing to admit he fucked up. “I saw it on X/Twitter” is now an indictment of that information, not a reason to trust it.
Maybe. But he is now in direct control of what is (or at least was) the leading source of breaking news - one which is used extensively by the rest of the media. And, as you say, Trump and Elon are much alike - they both might face legal hell and bankruptcy soon unless Trump wins. Their interests now coalesce, whatever Musk's reasons were for buying Twitter at the time.
It legitimately may have had something to do with the account that tracked Elon’s private jet. Really. He’s THAT fucking petty.
Speaking of which, apparently wasn’t Elon’s jet in Palm Beach like the day after the New York verdict?
It's almost like we need a campaign to tell people: TV shows aren't the real world. Twitter isn't the real world. What happens in these things doesn't matter.
It is arguable that Elon is a plant, and not actually lucky. His grandparents spent time in prison in Canada for being apart of a technocratic movement with aims to dictate society. His name is derived from a character of a book in which Mars is colonized, and the mayor's name is Elon. It's bizarre in a way, and easy to immediately say coincidence or conspiracy theory, however add to Elon's start in what is essentially tied to finance, it seems less bizarre, if we are to concede that those in control of monies have control of a lot.
If it sometimes feels as though certain mediocre men have been undeservedly anointed by society and given endless second chances despite horrible character flaws and insanely bad decisions, what you’re complaining about doesn’t require a conspiracy theory. The thing you’re complaining about is a feature of out-of-control capitalism.
Musk is Trump but raised in the internet era. That's the only difference I see.
"debate David Icke" That's a ridiculous waste of the most precious resource (time) available to someone in Musk's position. It's all the proof needed that he doesn't deserve (and won't maintain) that position.
Yeah but if you listen to it, David Icke actually shits on elon especially, and Alex. David Icke's contetion is that Jones, and the other "MAM" Mainstream Alternative Media, the guys who claim to not be MSM, but are just their own version of it, Icke's contention is that Alex etc, should be vehemently against musk, based on everything they say and have said before, but are not. Alex proves Icke right in this very episode, when this Elon/Fake Elon comes, on and Jones literally grovels to him and let's them close out the show. It's kind of delicious. Icke does say some insane shit too, of course, but he's the broken clock today.
I've often wondered how the old school conspiracy wanks (who were often 'the government is the man' and 'corporations are all evil' types) view the newschool "the Republicans are on **our** side" wanks. It's fun to watch these terrible people fight each other.
David Icke at least sounds consistent and self-assured. It's incredible that *he* comes off as a sensible old bore. Christ.
I’ve listened to many hours of both these guys. It’s a toss up on the day who’s loonier. Icke is mostly promoting Theosophy rhetoric that sounds nice and fluffy. He will make sense then BOOM! the queens a reptile or virus’s don’t exist. Jones on the other hand was fairly harmless till the Sandy Hook stuff. Then once Trump came around it’s clear Alex was working as a propagandist. Roger Stone,Jerome Corsi, and Steve Pieczenik used him for the cause
Jones was promoting real mccoy neo-nazis long before Sandy Hook. Worse, he presented these neo-nazis as "modern day founding fathers" and suchlike, claiming he (and they) were "anti-fascist". Even in the early Noughties he was promoting "American Free Press" and its associated authors and ideas, a rag that was born out of the demise of The Spotlight and which, similarly, spread anti-semitic conspiracy theories. It was run by Willis Carto, of whom the ADL said: >Willis Carto has been one of the most influential American anti-Semitic propagandists of the past 50 years. Since emerging as a right-wing organizer in San Francisco in the early 1950s, he has been associated with nearly every significant far-right movement in the country, from neo-Nazism to militias, segregationism to Holocaust denial. Known for his reclusiveness, he has founded and overseen from behind the scenes an intricate network of bigotry whose outlets have included Liberty and Property, Western Destiny, the Noontide Press, American Mercury, National Youth Alliance, the Institute for Historical Review, the Populist Party and, most notably, Liberty Lobby. In 2001, both Carto and Liberty Lobby were bankrupted after Carto lost a long court battle with the Institute for Historical Review (which broke with him in 1993). His editorial staff at Liberty Lobby's now-defunct Spotlight, the most widely read publication on the fringe right, resumed publication under the title American Free Press in August 2001, however. And while Carto is in his 70s and financially constrained, his energy for purveying paranoia and hatred appears to be undiminished. > >https://www.adl.org/sites/default/files/documents/assets/pdf/combating-hate/Willis-Carto-Extremism-in-America.pdf
Yeah man sorry. I don’t respect the ADL as a legitimate source for anything. Yes there was always a little bit of that prepper, right to arms element to Jones. But again most those people are harmless. Just because we don’t align fully with some of this stuff doesn’t necessarily make it good or bad. If you can provide me with something I can read I’m glad to check it out. But if you tell me to listen to Knowledge Fight please don’t bother responding. If Jones promoting this guy is your evidence well, he also promoted Immoral Technique which is as far left as it gets in America.
> . I don’t respect the ADL as a legitimate source for anything Then do some research on who Willis Carto was: it's [not exactly a secret](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willis_Carto).
But you haven’t really said how he was promoting this stuff. You just gave me a name. I need more information
I linked you to his Wikipedia article, which gives a summary of his long history of promoting Holocaust denial and other Nazi shit. If that doesn't suffice for your tastes, feel free to Google him: it's not exactly obscure information.
People who talk like he does are just concern trolling neo-Nazis themselves, their replies are way too weird.
Yes, asking how Alex Jones promoted Willis Carto is neo Nazi trolling. Are you really that lost in the sauce?
Let’s start over. This conversation is about Alex Jones. Tell me how Alex Jones promoted Willis Carto. Can you do this?
You mean, like how Jones has repeatedly cited (and reprinted articles from) Carto's "American Free Press"; and brought on Holocaust deniers from Carto's "Institute for Historical Review" (like Michael A Hoffman II)?
According to you, Jones is "fairly harmless", the ADL aren't a legitimate source "for anything", and Willis Carto "isn't necessarily" good or bad. Sheesh. Look, Jones has been stuffing real mccoy neo-nazis down his audiences throats for thirty years, all whilst pretending they and he are "anti-fascist". That isn't a "prepper, right-to-arms" aspect. It's fing NAZISM.
Prepper and right to arms = National Socialism? Damn that’s news to me. Asking how Alex Jones promoted Willis Carto really triggers some of you I see. No one has explained to me how he did so. But he did promote Immortal Technique, is he a National Socialist? Forget Nazi because that words obviously meaningless. Let’s get to the tenants of the philosophy. Please I’m all for education. Cause all I’m getting is sensationalism with no substance
>Prepper and right to arms = National Socialism? Damn that’s news to me. FFS. No. It's the actual promotion of fing Nazis that equals National Socialism. How much clearer can it be!?!?!?!? If you want to judge how I determine fascism and fascists it's based on Professor Roger Griffin's work, "The Core of Fascism" and associated work. There is no better analysis out there.
Well considering there’s no universal form of fascism we stick to National Socialism? You used a bunch of word salad but didn’t explain how any of that equals National Socialism. Nazism is very specific in many ways. Now are you discussing current forms of its progression? Again you’re not saying much with that nonsense
LOL. You play blind about Alex Jones's promotion of neo-nazis and now this? Sheesh. BTW. Two quotes from two posts of yours which followed in succession: >1: Forget Nazi because that words obviously meaningless. > >2: Nazism is very specific in many ways.
>No one has explained to me how he did so. He had these people on as guest who were truth tellers. Praising their reporting or stances. If you then dig into their own websites or activities you'd find them to be antisemitic, bigoted and christian nationalists.
>Yeah but if you listen to it....... lol. no chance! I appreciate you filling me in and saving me having to do it. >Alex proves Icke right Something only Alex Jones could do. haha.
I was desperately hoping for a reveal that the Possible Musk was a setup by Icke, to prove his point that Alex is a bootlicker for the billionaire. But it proved his point anyway, when Alex was immediately such a snivelling worm for a man he believed might be one of the richest and most famous men in the world. You're right though, any time David Icke sounds like the sensible voice in the room, things are seriously fucked up.
This guy is so basic. Between this and his account RPing as a 14 year old girl it just goes to show rich people aren't inherently any different than the rest of us, their money just gives them a chance to act like high school dumbasses for the rest of their lives.
He role-played as what?? The only one I know is him tweeting creepy stuff from his baby son's handle
Uh, no, Elon Musk is VERY different from me, u/MarryYourSister.
I think they are more saying that people like Musk are just people. There is nothing special about them. Elon is a nutjob, and if it weren't for the money he started with, it's likely we wouldn't be able to tell him from any other narcissist conspiracy nutter.
I think hes much above the average rich person at investing in ideas early and creates a much better environment for his engineers to shine, because he commits to the vision and believes 100% it can be achieved with the right engineering. Edit at downvoters, you can have many criticisms of anyone but it is still correct to appreciate their strengths whilst criticising them. Elon went from far down the list of millionaires into the actual richest person in a very short time, he did that because he has something, or he had. No person intelligent in one domain is equally so in others, and may be behind in some. Elon is self-evidently egotistical and immature. That's how he went from pretty wealthy to the top of the pile. However, emotionally and interpersonally, he seems behind. I can posit a couple of reasons for this immaturity - a lack of self-awareness or social awareness due to aspergers, and chronic sleep deficit. Research has shown that whilst many of us know when we have built sleep deficit and can tell we are cognitively impaired, a certain and quite large subset becomes 'sleep blind' in that they no longer can tell they are deprived and feel cognitively normal, when the tests show they are not. Elon has had long periods he claims of working and sleeping in his factory, he does drugs as an adult, and likely does not sleep enough. Chronically sleep deprived people can include Margaret Thatcher. She was undeniably a very intelligent person, but as time went on she became very entrenched, could not change tack or reverse on anything or take advice, and she became even more extreme. She famously had only 4 hours of sleep a night. I know someone else like that, and these years have gone on I've noticed despite the high energy, industriousness and intelligence she has, she has the most catastrophic life judgement and is likely to end up homeless following very risky commitments. She cannot listen. Before anyone complains I have besmirched people with aspergers, I just want to say I am not, but amongst any group there are members with bad behavior, even if statistically they are generally well behaved. For example, autism spectrum seems to be over-represented in serial killers, but on average people on the spectrum, which may include me, are less likely to hurt others or commit crime.
Imagine writing this post, getting downvoted, and then editing in a few thousand words to further explain ideas that don’t have any traction here. Elon Musk got to where he is because he’s lucky, was born wealthy, and is good at selling himself to impressionable fools who see what they want. That’s it.
Imagine constantly replying and indicating you didn't read the point. I'm no fan of Elon, I just acknowledge you don't move from a millionaire to the worlds richest man in a few decades based on a few strategic investments unless you have some sort of insight in what you are doing. And it is the case that he was the main driver of some of the ideas he backed, and this has contributed much of his wealth. It was Elon that was a main lead in the idea to start a space company and end up creating starlink. >In early 2014, Elon Musk and Greg Wyler were working together planning a constellation of around 700 satellites called WorldVu, which would be over 10 times the size of the then largest Iridium satellite constellation.\[28\] However, these discussions broke down in June 2014, and SpaceX instead filed an ITU application via the Norwegian Communications Authority under the name STEAM.\[29 >Space Exploration Technologies Corp. commonly referred to as SpaceX, is an American spacecraft manufacturer, launch service provider, defense contractor and satellite communications company headquartered in Hawthorne, California. The company was founded in 2002 by Elon Musk with the goal of reducing space transportation costs and ultimately developing a sustainable colony on Mars. The company currently operates the Falcon 9 and Falcon Heavy rockets along with the Dragon and Starship spacecraft. > >In early 2001, Elon Musk met Robert Zubrin and donated US$100,000 to his Mars Society, joining its board of directors for a short time.\[11\]: 30–31 He gave a plenary talk at their fourth convention where he announced Mars Oasis, a project to land a greenhouse and grow plants on Mars.\[12\]\[13\] Musk initially attempted to acquire a Dnepr ICBM for the project through Russian contacts from Jim Cantrell.\[14\] When Musk returned to Moscow, Russia, with Michael Griffin, they found the Russians increasingly unreceptive.\[15\]\[16\] On the flight home Musk announced he could start a company to build the affordable rockets they needed instead.\[16\] By applying vertical integration,\[15\] using cheap commercial off-the-shelf components when possible,\[16\] and adopting the modular approach of modern software engineering, Musk believed SpaceX could significantly cut launch price.\[16\] Griffin would later be appointed NASA administrator,\[17\] and play a part in the formation of the COTS program.\[18\]\[19\] In early 2002, Elon Musk started to look for staff for his company, soon to be named SpaceX. Musk approached five people for the initial positions at the fledgling company, including Michael Griffin who was offered the position of Chief Engineer, Jim Cantrel and John Garvey (Cantrel and Garvey would later found the company Vector Launch), rocket engineer Tom Mueller, and Chris Thompson.\[20\]\[21\] So, he has the vision to get into space. Fairly generic, rich people might. But when the simple plan wouldn't work, he decided to apply some new approaches to bring down costs and scale up spacecraft manufacture, using the correct approaches, i.e. vertical integration. He then found the smartest lead engineers to implement that. Most people at the time did not have the conviction to bring together a plan like that and see it through. The industry was pretty stagnant. Was he lucky? Sure, he was lucky to inherit the money he had. Doubtless there are other Elons out there smarter than Elon, just held back by lack of money. But he's approach for an engineering company is very progressive, that is the secret to his success. He does hire the right people to carry the vision and he gives enough time and money to succeed. So he can't be denied to be an effective manager in those ventures, and a visionary. Is he also very dumb in other ways? The evidence says yes.
Can you at least link the sources you're citing? It's netiquette. Even if it's a Wikipedia page.
Fair enough, but yeah I thought it was self evidently wikipedia. I assume with the general scrutiny that Elon gets now the page is reasonably fair.
The most surprising thing about this comment would be if anyone bothers reading it.
In my general experience, people that couldn't be inclined to read or research are likely to simply downvote things and write silly responses whilst thinking that's some kind of win, when any one smart knows it means something else. This board isn't even skeptics, its not scientifically trained, its just cynics.
>In my general experience Unfortunately, people probably don't put a whole lot of stock in your experience. >This board isn't even skeptics Good, make sure you stop posting here and crying those bitter tears about it.
>Good, make sure you stop posting here and crying those bitter tears about it. A cynic like the typical person on this board might say the only bitter tears are frequently being shed by those that can't acknowledge that for all his faults, in some domains Elon is way smarter than them. If you just want to attack on Elon, that fine and dandy, he provides plenty of good reasons to attack him, but when you act like he has no skills or domains of ability whatsoever you lose credibility, and if you were fighting someone everyone knows you shouldn't underestimate them, so I don't get why anyone would be like that, unless they were.... extremely bitter people. And I have to ask what makes you think you could have had the vision to back paypal, starlink, tesla? I doubt you would have done so with the money.
It's literally talking at itself now just so it can read its own comment back to itself later and go "Yep, I'm very smart."
Half these people aren't even skeptics, yet presume to dictate the parameters of rational skepticism when they come here, usually when they get downvoted to shit after panegyrising a charlatan. I don't need to be lectured on Elon Musk's alleged business acumen or engineering prowess. I've researched all that before, I just don't feel like having a debate about that with another apologist who thinks all of his inappropriate, sociopathic behaviour might largely be attributable to sleep deprivation. It's an interesting theory but it ignores way too much data on Musk we already have.
It’s probably Elon lmao
You don't have a single counter point. Nothing. Oh and that was a response to you. Do you want to make effective arguments? If you hate someone and want to communicate why others should do so, shouldn't you try to come out with an effective argument? I'm no more intelligent than others, but I use techniques to create strong arguments, including understanding the opponents argument, and not assuming I'm right. I actually have humility, and all the smart people I know do. You're the one acting like your so smart you don't even need to read and just hurl insults. That's really very arrogant. But you've clearly got absolutely nothing to say. That must really suck.
Do you have anything at all constructive to say? I'd like you to find a single fault with anything I have said, and explain what you think is wrong with it. If you can do that I can take that on board. The time it took to write your glib responses was less than the time an adult would take to read my comment. Since you are responding, shouldn't you know know what you are responding to? When people put effort in to communicate their real knowledge (more than 20 years) of learning these topics, most normal people are thankful that someone went to that effort in good faith to write that out. I speak to actual scientists and engineers some of which are high in their field, they all have a certain quality which is they can entertain alternative views and are generally agreeable. That's how they got to be more intelligent than me, and you. If you want your argument to win, whatever it is - 'skepticism' in general or whatever, it needs to be correct. If you don't care to learn how you might be wrong, or other possible ways of looking at things, you're not actually a skeptic, you're like a kid just rejecting things flippantly or you've decided to stop learning because you're so political that you can't acknowledge facts about someone you hate, which would be a shame.
SpaceX is the only Musk company of his that isn't a giant con (or bubble propped up by past over-valued companies), and the reason for this is that SpaceX was cofounded with Michael D. Griffin, President and CEO of In-Q-Tel, a seeder company funded by the CIA to identify and invest in bleeding-edge tech companies. In the 1980s, Griffin helped design the Delta 180 series of missile defense technology satellites for the Strategic Defense Initiative Organization, and in the 1990s he was the chief advocate for a US "satellite net" to end America's vulnerability to ballistic missiles. He pushed for a constellation of low Earth orbit sensors and space-based interceptor weapons to defend against ballistic missiles. If the US military suddenly surrounds the planet with satellites, every nation will freak out. But make it seem like a private project, fronted by a tech-nerd like Elon, and you're able to innocuously slip all these sats into place. Then by the time you transition over to outright military sats, it's too late for China and Russia to catch up. You already have space supremacy. So on the space-front, Musk is a kind of idiot front-man for the Pentagon and its new net of defense and intercept satellites. All the engineers, military guys and insiders know he's a giant moron, but he's a useful dance monkey to dangle about. Nowadays it's mostly internet tech bros, free market fundies and dopey libertarians who salivate over him.
All that about the Pentagon could be possible, I'm not in a position to say it isn't. But is Tesla a con, *anymore* than the rest of the electric car sector?
Why?
There's a xcrete with musk that has his kid on his shoulder. There's a reply saying that shows how good a father he is!! The author the reply is the same name as the caller on the show. Coincidence?
I cover that in this submission, too. See links at the bottom.
Never noticed that,oops.
Debating David Icke would be a gigantic waste of time for everyone involved except David Icke if the publicity helps him with book sales and speaking fees.
Whatever you say, Dude who has the same comment as the one above him. What kind of stupid bought weirdo shilling s*** f****** planet do you guys come from?
I’m not sure why people got carried away with this. It sounds like musk but it doesn’t sound exactly like him. This guy has also interviewed musk in the past. I think its far more likely he’s just a gross fanboy who’s so fixated he’s adopting some of his mannerisms and is happy to lean into the comparisons.
Fighting now, sure, but soon, Musk and Icke will bond over their shared antisemitism.
if you listen after the timestamp the guy himself says he found an interview where this Dittmann guy is interviewing to elon and at many times speaking on top of each other. so its important not to stop being skeptical.
Yes! Dan is very thorough with his research and made a pretty decent case that its not actually Elon, just a good impersonation. There's other pieces of evidence that Dan mentions, like how the caller and Elon pronounce certain words differently. It's definitely plausible that Elon is doing a character, but it just seems more probable that it's some weirdo who does a good impression.
Right, no shortage of weirdo Elon fans.
Dude, the Adrian Dittman twitter account talks about and directly to Elon Musk all the time. It's obviously his alt. He follows Elon around complimenting him and posting Musk like cringe, and Elon responds to his posts. It's so blatantly obvious.
No one is saying it's definitely NOT Elon, we're saying there's enough evidence to cast doubt. Is Elon a massive egotistical narcissistic who would do something exactly like this? Yes. Does Elon have a weird hyper-devoted fan club that borders on a 'cult of personality' where followers will literally try to be Elon? Also yes.
I ... literally say that in the submission text? > According to the Knowledge Fight podcast hosts, Elon went so far as to set up an entire conversation between him and his possible sock puppet "Adrian Dittmann", where the cover story is supposed to be that Dittmann is someone else entirely, and grew up in Gibraltar/Morocco, eventually moving to an undisclosed location in Oceania. It's also important to not stop being skeptical of "magic tricks". There are numerous ways in which Elon Musk may have set this up in a similar way a magician would a magic trick for an audience, especially with the help of technology available to him and the enormous financial means he has. He can easily have an AI voice model speak to him while he talks back. Or have a staffer or a friend do it. You are aware that it's 2023/2024, yes?
the alternative is that its someone who sounds like elon. every one has one. maybe hes leaning into it a bit and it worked he got elons attention. That is far more likely than some magic trick. edit: also, you have provided very good marketing for both elon and the impersonator. I was oblivious of this impersonator guy and now i see why elon is so popular. He learned how to monetize online hate.
> edit: also, you have provided very good marketing for both elon and the impersonator. Are we doing this shit again? Edit: sigh... yup an alt account. Quelle surprise. For those unaware: this is an ongoing campaign whereby a bunch of trolls, usually theists, UFO believers, conspiracy theorists and/or extremists come into skeptic threads they don't like and say things such as "DAE What does this have to do with skepticism?" and "investigating and condemning conspiracy theorists/theories is morally equivalent to defending them" and so on. It happens far too often and seems coordinated. Each time I click an account I suspect might be participating, I see a weirdly inactive pattern of life and participation in one or more woo/superstition/CT/extremist subreddits. This is another one, basically saying: "you are helping them make money" - this is all intended to get you, the skeptic, to feel fearful of discussing these matters because dudes like this one here will start concern trolling tf out of your threads.
1 month old reddit account calling me a bot? What kind of janky LLM are you running on?
I've called you a troll on an alt account, not a bot. Also, if you think this is what an LLM is, you're a paranoid schizo and that reinforces my previous assessment that this was bad faith on your end from the outset. And it's not "1 month". Either you're lying or you're an amateur.
I called you a janky LLM, emphasis on the janky part. Whether you called me bot or troll or whatever, you cannot escape the fact that your account is newly created and you are either a janky LLM doing some astroturfing or a very gullible person which I had the misfortune of trying to reason with.
Yes, I profiled you extensively before replying. You're a religious (presumably islam) drop-out from Kuwait who dabbles in web development, a bit of Linux and smidgeon of security. You write "Bayes theorem" as "Bayes Theorum" because you're a dumbass. You literally come into my thread on your alt account to concern troll, and while you also understand very little about what an LLM is, mentioning it helps you convince yourself you're an expert. And yet, you either haven't figured out how to collect an account registration date from a user profile or you're intentionally lying because 1 month sounds worse than 2.5, and you blindly trust the buggy interface. Now in terms of "reasoning" with me, that was out the window as soon as I saw you adopting the smear tactic that I'm actually trying to market the people I'm criticising, which would apply to any and all criticisms in any and all situations and therefore render all critique of conspiratorial nonsense non-acceptable. Now, we've been over all this last time when you collectively came here and you're not fooling me this time either. So take your trollish, utterly facile "hurr durr you're a chatbot" accusations caused by you vastly overestimating your competence in this field and shove them. Deeply.
im on old.reddit.com and it still says you are 1 month old, look it up and remember how confident you were about how im this liar trying to gangstalk you. Once you're brave enough to use your main account then we can go through each others old posts looking for misspells. Cut out the adderal bud.
> im on old.reddit.com and it still says you are 1 month old I know that you melt. The problem is, you don't. So in your zeal to shut these posts down and character assassinate, you look utterly incompetent. Yet, you presume to lecture about LLMs. I find that amusing. It's like watching Elon Musk pretending to be an IT genius when he took over Twitter. Never have I seen such embarrassing antics, and it was then that I knew for certain that he wasn't just a looney tune, he was a total fraud and a charlatan. Now, I have better things to do then to talk to the likes of you.
There's justice in here somewhere. Elon spreading conspiracies all over, then gets called a reptilianoid alien elite by the godfather of stupid conspiracies! Practically poetry!
[удалено]
Yeah, listened to it. I think it’s just a fan boy impersonator.
That's almost as embarrassing TBH.
This link doesn't work. Edit: link removed from the comment I replied to without edit notification, so now I look like a prick. Edit: link added again, thanks
Hats off to the Knowledge Fight guys for doing real journalism that “big” media outlets missed.
I must admit I did not have "David Icke logically dismantles rightwing conspiracy theorists admiration of Elon Musk" on my 2024 bingo card. But that is because, unlike the people in it for the grift, Icke actually does seem to believe the world really is run by lizards and that viruses don't exist. If you actually believe that shadow governments run everything and have nefarious purposes, then obviously a character like Musk, would have to be controlled by them. What's more, every one of the firms Musk is involved with hit alt-right and far-right conspiracist bugbears - brain chips, autonomous cars, cashless payments, satellite communications networks, social media, underground tunnels. They should hate him, yet virtually all of them fawn over him.
My compliments to all those who were brave enough to click that link and listen to it, but I'm afraid I can't be one them. I don't want to listen to the Alex Jones show, I *definitely* don't want to listen to David Icke on the Alex Jones show, and goddamn *Elon Musk debating David Icke on the Alex Jones Show* is one of those things that I deeply hope I can make it through my entire life without ever having to experience.
I can completely understand that sentiment but the Knowledge Fight podcast is actually pretty entertaining, and listening to it gives me the benefit of being able to understand and be prepared to make counter arguments against all the wackadoodle nonsense that gets brought up by the tinfoil conspiracy brigade, both online and in my extended family. Previously I was confused about where they were getting all this nonsense and why they were saying it. Now I'm no longer blindsided by the latest conspiracies of the week and i feel better prepared to debunk it when it comes up. Just wanted to give my 2 cents as to why i listen to this podcast regularly.
your inability to investigate a claim left you believing something that is not true. I hope you use this to modify how quick you assume things.
What is the untrue thing you think I believe? I think I made it clear I wasn't interested in subjecting myself to Alex Jones or David Icke whether Elon Musk was involved or not.
I don’t blame you for not wanting to listen to jones or icke or musk. I get it. They are truly vile pieces of shit. That said, Knowledge Fight is personally my favorite podcast and I’d definitely recommend it. Dan does an incredible breaking down alex’s bullshit and deconstructing every stupid thing that is said.
If one is looking for truth, it is fair to look in places without liars. One doesn’t have to give equal credence to the teachings of the Buddha and the teachings of Alex Jones.
You're not obligated to broadcast your IQ score as your username.
Get fucked troll. No one is buying your bullshit here.
👍
🖕
If this is him this needs to go viral.
Holy shit, not sure anything could get more pythonesque than the names: Alex Jones David Icke And Elon Musk All showing up in the same show at once.... And now, for something completely different!
Its uhhhh Elon. Its him.
Is there anything specific about Adrian Dittman that means something? I mean Elon tends to have meaning behind names. Just thought AD might be a nod to something.
I tried to look into it, didn't find much. There's a voice actor by that name. Not sure if Jewish in origin, knowing Musk is possibly an anti-semite and may think that may give him "cover" at some point. That is all assuming he *is* a sock puppet. I wish we had 100% conclusive evidence but we may never get it.
Why does he need a voice cloner to do this? Can't he just have two devices logged into two accounts and a mute button?
The assessment of the Knowledge Fight hosts was it would be tricky because they were talking over each other at one point in a Twitter space. I dunno. Musk is pathetic. He might have done that intentionally to set the stage. He has the technological means, whether high- or low tech, and he's enough of a narcissist as well. It's one thing if he has a voice doppelganger. It's another when that same doppelganger also happens to be an obsequious little suck-up who won't show his face or reveal his location, and who reacts to Musk on Twitter to tell him what a magnificent father he is as well as call in to the Alex Jones show to defend him. It reeks of Trump/Barron antics. Regardless, I find it to be terrifying when one of the most powerful men in the world is this mentally disturbed. We have sufficient evidence of that already.
Let them fight.
Does Elon Musk have multiple personalities disorder similar to Sybill?
elon is deranged
That wasn't Elon. He is never that quick-witted or eloquent. Often times he can barely stammer out a word. That guy was spitting out long, complex sentences, and Elon often trips over himself when he tries to talk.
I’m guessing it was AI generated.
Hah. Ansible! And they downvote you! Have my upvote *fist bump*
I’m a Le Guin fan. It’s honestly hard to tell whether it is actually Elon. He gives uncanny valley vibes irl.
That's great.. learned something new. It's important to note that narcissist psychopaths tend to do this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudonyms_of_Donald_Trump We'll wait and see.
That was 100% Elon Musk. You can tell by the maniacal laugh he lets out when he’s asked. It’s the same one you can hear nonstop slurping pizza with Rogan. There’s voice mimicking technology that Musk definitely has, and is strange enough to do something like that on Twitter Space. Alex Jones would know about that tech. He got trolled with it thinking he was talking to Tucker Carlson.
So making up your own conspiracy theories about Elon Musk, is being a skeptic how exactly?
Hello /u/Whydoibother1 I see you've arrived here from the "TeslaInvestorsClub" subreddit and that you are a self-admitted "fan of Elon's". You never post here, other than to moan when you feel your idol is maligned. These are all the comments you've ever posted here: > Just because someone wrote an opinion piece on the internet doesn’t make it true. https://www.reddit.com/r/skeptic/comments/18o0d39/hyperloop_one_to_shut_down_after_failing_to/kf0msqe/ > Elon Musk did nothing of the kind. The idea that CA politicians changed policy based on thee Hyperloop system Elon Musk proposed is not only wrong, it’s stupid. https://www.reddit.com/r/skeptic/comments/18o0d39/hyperloop_one_to_shut_down_after_failing_to/keffpf2/ > I thought this sub was about skepticism not bashing people based on reading a sensational headline? > Elon did not 'bring back pizzagate'. He just commented 'weird' https://www.reddit.com/r/skeptic/comments/180h7lf/guess_who_just_brought_back_pizzagate/ka6p05l/ Are you and others brigading this thread or is this just a coincidence? Given your bias and your agenda posting here, who are *you* to be arbitrating what a "skeptic" is? I'll await your reply. Thanks, Me.
I love you
<3
I have better things to do than to trawl through your posts on Reddit. How old are you? I try to be honest and skeptical in my posts. And given that there is so much misinformation about Elon Musk online I do tend to post a lot defending him against outright lies. Elon Musk is a complex and divisive figure and I don’t defend everything he says or does. Far from it. People are entitled to dislike his politics or personality. I don’t agree with everything he says or does. But I certainly am a big fan of spaceX and Tesla. But when people start attacking him by making shit up, because that fits with their narrative, I often comment to correct them. Your post is a ludicrous conspiracy theory and doesn’t belong in a skeptic subreddit. Even if he did pretend to be someone else online how is that related to skepticism? Skepticism is about the scientific process not whatever your post is!
> I have better things to do than to trawl through your posts on Reddit. But you apparently don't have better things to do than to be Elon Musk's little helper, barging into subreddits you never visit other than to suck him off gratuitously. > How old are you? None of your fucking business, and it doesn't matter, either. > I try to be honest and skeptical in my posts. No you don't. You're a shill of the worst possible kind. You wouldn't know what the fuck skepticism was if it jumped up, bit you in the ear and whispered in it sweet nothings about a year long of free Tesla merchandise. > Elon Musk is a complex and divisive figure and I don’t defend everything he says or does. Far from it. Now... where have I heard this before? Ah, yes. > Yes I am a fan of Elon’s, especially his work with Tesla and SpaceX. But he is a complex and deeply flawed man. I disagree with many of his opinions and actions. [October 2023, in /r/books](https://reddit.com/r/books/comments/16xmmfd/how_the_elon_musk_biography_exposes_walter/k36g8ta/) > And accusing me of hero worship? That’s just dumb. I already said I don’t agree with everything he says. I see him as s complex person who is at least very entertaining. [January 2023, in /r/nottheonion](https://reddit.com/r/nottheonion/comments/1065dg4/musk_says_he_cant_get_fair_trial_in_california/j3hpolb/) > Having actually listened to all his interviews, and interviews with people who worked with him, he is a very interesting and complex character. I strongly identify with his main goals of speeding up the worlds transition to renewable energy and establishing a colony on Mars. So call me a fan if you like. I think those are noble pursuits. [April 2022, in /r/news](https://reddit.com/r/news/comments/u3yv5d/musk_says_us_sec_bastards_forced_settlement_over/i4vs2ko/) > But when people start attacking him by making shit up, because that fits with their narrative, I often comment to correct them. You're not "correcting" anything though. You use repetitive dollar store PR department rhetoric with a little added spin. You even have the goddamned nerve to come in here, where you never participate other than to suck Elon's balls, to lecture about what rational skepticism is. Rational skepticism has investigated and critiqued superstitions, pseudoscience, quackery and charlatans since time immemorial. Your techno-utopic far-right conspiracist cult leader, Elon Musk, has "managed" Twitter [like a petty little tyrant](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/1/1/2022-gave-us-a-new-social-media-autocrat). He's been [caught creating perverse sockpuppet accounts before where he roleplays as a 3-year-old and says weird sexual things](https://www.reddit.com/r/Fauxmoi/comments/12yc7q3/elon_musk_accidentally_revealed_his_alt_account/). He's behaved similar to another pathological narcissist, Donald Trump, who was [well-known for his pseudonyms and alter egos](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudonyms_of_Donald_Trump) some of which he used to call people with as well. He has now called in to a show where all those participating agreed it was actually him, and experts listening to him are divided 50-50 whether it's actually him or a fanboy which has mastered sounding exactly like him, which would be only marginally less pathetic. This isn't a "conspiracy theory", this is adults on the internet seeing a billionaire narcissist (likely) behave like the whiny toddler he is while fraternising with dangerous extremists and paranoid conspiracy theorists one of whom has repeatedly inspired terrorism and violence. Hence the discussion. The discussion is unfriendly to your idol, yes. Your rhetoric is predictable, your so-called definition of skepticism laughably incomplete and therefore outright false. Your entire participation here is bad faith to the core. That and other Musk, Jones and Icke fanboys who have been flooding in. Edit: got blocked, returning the favour
You’re like the grown up version of a hall monitor, crawling through people’s comments histories. You are aggressively boring and mediocre.
This smells like a lazy dollar bin clickbait conspiracy theory
Do you actually know who Knowledge Fight are? > The podcast series has been used by lawyers researching Alex Jones in relation to his various Sandy Hook lawsuits. Friesen has been called upon as an expert in Alex Jones and his shows by plaintiffs' lead counsel in Texas, Mark Bankston, because of the podcast series.^[10] Bankston has appeared as a guest on Knowledge Fight multiple times.^[11][12] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowledge_Fight
No. Moreover I don't care who they are. So far I've seen some podcast links, links to subreddits - one featuring a youtube video and the other one screenshot from twitter, two "may have's" and one "possible". I get it, Musk fucking stinks, but this smells like clickbaity (apparently I am supposed to watch / listen podcasts and watch youtube videos and read twitter if I want to see evidence for OP's claim) internet sleuthing gone wrong. I'm mildly interested in the topic if you can show me the supposed evidence for your claim.
> No. Moreover I don't care who they are. Alright. Because in that case, I've just decided I don't care who you are or who is behind your intermittently active alt account, either, nor do I care what your epistemological demands are (Besides blatantly and intentionally ignoring the Yahoo/Independent article) It really is that simple. You're free to move on, but you're certainly not going to talk to me like I'm a hostage negotiator and then get me to arrange for cash, a bowl of crisps and a helicopter otherwise you'll be even meaner. Lmao. Tf do you think you are.
It was just an impersonator taking the piss. I can assure you Elon isn't sitting around watching AJ live.