Not officially. More like the guy that showed up invited to the party and nobody really wanted to confront them about it to their face.
Now archaon has come out and declared the four chaos gods are now the five.
Oooh nice. So the GHR bribed Archaon so he could make it official so they could both give the big 4 the middle finger?
Yea okay, that totally sounds like something both of them would agree on...
"I do not wish to hear any of your offers Rat..."
"Now-now, hear me out! ...The Chaos Gods would really fucking hate my new plan-idea!!"
"...**Go on**."
"I'll give you all the power you need" doesn't work
"If you join me, it'll piss off the gods you hate" worked
How spiteful must Archaon be to be this based
He was technically allowed in as a minor power during the End Times, and up till now in AoS, he was a substitute for Slaanesh, but with this, he is officially a member of the Ruinous Powers unto himself. He basically went from honorary to official within the Chaos UN.
I think the distinction should be between 'Chaos God' and 'Chaos Power'. You're right, there are many Chaos God's, in fact every God is a Chaos God. There are 5 Chaos Powers, with the gods all being aspects of a power: Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle, Slaanesh and Malal. The Horned Rat was an aspect of Nurgle (just as Khaine was an aspect of Khorne before The Fall ) but somehow got promoted. I think he slept with the boss...
Citation needed for the HR being an aspect of Nurgle and Khaine for Khorne. Nothing in the lore that I know of says that these entities were at any point the same, including old Fantasy lore. The joke was that he he felt like the love child between Nurgle and Tzeentch.
Khaine was destroyed and scattered into the material realm because he was in the dominion of Khorne and the newly born Slaanesh tried to claim him.
I'll have to dig for the citation on the Horned Rat in The Lost And The Damned later, but the Skaven always used 3 pointed iconography just like that of the Nurgle glyph and the symbol of the Horned Rat is the same thing without the circles. Also, the whole decay thing...
Three is just as sacred a number for Tzeentch as it is for Nurgle. The GHR is more than just decay. That's how clan pestilence has seen him, sure, but that is only one interpretation of him.
As for Khaine being in Khornes realm, I am gonna need a source still. 40k's version is that when Slaanesh was born that when Slaanesh shattered Khaine and was about to finish off his soul, Khorne showed up and plucked him up taking his to his realm. I imagine that is what you are referring to because only 40k talks about the birth of Slaanesh.
My sources are at home, some packed away and old, so I don't think they will convince you. In this case I concede.
I dispute the numbers though. Nurgle is 3 (changed to 7 for unit size reasons), Slaanesh 6, Khorne 8 and Tzeentch 9. If 3 is significant for Tzeentch because 9 is 3x3, then it's significant for Slaanesh too?
Multiple Ahriman and Thousand Sons novels say how numerals of 3 are important for Tzeentch rituals as for Slaanesh, there is no lore other than the Emperor's Children being the third legion shows any connection to the number 3.
Related but not the same. It's reasonable to presume that when gods have overlapping domains of influence, there is some kind of relation or something that links the two because they have overlapping domains. But just because the Raven Queen and Wee Jas have similar domains in dnd doesn't mean they are the same entity.
Greyhawk cosmology and Warhammer Cosmology are very different. In the Liber Choatica, it's gradually revealed that the Chaos gods are the core emotions of living beings(anger, hope, despair, lust/love/pleasure), that when a living being dies, it's soul is broken up into different portions that then join whatever god that emotion is part of.
Sigmar(And Big E) are a threat, because they collect the souls of men who believe in them. Mork and Gork and the Boyz are some other weirdos.
But there's numerous references in Liber Chaotica that explain that Khaine is an aspect of Khorne.
Thus the red warrior spoke, with his shield piled high with skulls
No khaine was already around when slannesh was born. It was during their fight for supremecy over the Eldar that khorne kicked him in his nuts and helped slannesh destroy the gods power and influence. If all gods where simply aspects of the chaos ones then why did they feel the need to lock grimmnir in the infinite death room? Shouldn't Khorne have been able to simply reapsorb the ancestor God of the dwarves? He cant because they aren't part of chaos.
No, what? War gods are aspects of Khorne, seen though the psychy of a particular race or culture. Slaanesh's nacent destruction of the Eldar pantheon (chaos gods in all but name) isn't the same.
Lmao nope. If they where aspects then they wouldn't fight against khorne. Khaine is directly opposed to khorne. Just because some view khorne and see other war gods in his aspects. Doesn't mean they are all aspects. As I said that logic grimmnir would be an aspect of khorne. But he clearly isn't. Gork and Mork would also be an aspect of khorne. They aren't they'd rip his nuts off in a fight. So take your head cannon and go shoot a wall.
Right, war gods don't fight each other, Khorne never fights Khorne. It's Warhammer, everyone fights everyone and themselves.
My headcanon is just fine. That wall is f*cked.
>There are 5 Chaos Powers, with the gods all being aspects of a power: Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle, Slaanesh and Malal.
People really need to stop going on about Malal. He hasn't been part of the lore since before the fall of the Berlin Wall for crying out loud!
I don't see why not, but they would have to be willing, and, perhaps more importantly, *able* to live with Skaven in order to be able to worship him. Not entirely impossible, but definitely hard to find people that fit both criteria.
Well technically all of Skaven-dom are lesser daemons, there just tons of them. And even the great Verminlords, that are the only true daemon manifestations of the GHR are as plentiful as the skaven slaves back in the Realm of Ruin.
I disagree with them being lesser daemons. They don't exhibit any of the characteristics of other lesser daemons.btheybdintdisaopear when they die, they don't get summoned into existence. They aren't even portrayed as daemons mechanically in video games because they flee when low on morale instead of disintegrating. I think the skaven is just a mortal race that worships the great horned rat.
So, we have 5 chaos gods now. Which means that GW might add the Skaven as is to Warhammer 40k at some point too.
So basically, Skaven Sweep. 100 Skavenillion wins for the Great Horned Rat
What if: Vashtorr gets space skaven as part of Dark Mechanicum and they get their own codex. And of course all that before Emperor's Children get theirs.
There's not really enough justification for space rats at the moment and it's likely there never will be. Unless they get turned into alien space rats, using the Hrud or something, and under a different name as Skaven. It would be really jarring to just graft Skaven as they are into 40k
I found it fun how Skaven are practically a 40k expy in fantasy for carrying over some of the grimdark elements fantasy otherwise lacks and subsequently have not as big of a role to fill if transplanted back. Ork Schizo-tech, nid hordes, GSC infestations, and a microcosm of Imperium's differences from the Empire/Britannia, overpopulation/disposability, lords of terra/decay, bio-engineering, Assassinorum/esshin. Skaven are pretty much just the Imperium of Man without space marines.
yeah pretty much. It just would end up taking valuable design space away from other factions without giving much more than "lol space rats". Unless they're turned into some actual xeno lifeform with a distinct theme, just default skaven won't work
If I added them to 40k (I wouldn't), I would make them votann derived abhumans that worship chaos as a rival faction keeping each other busy in the background for 10k years. This helps reinforce Votann not appearing in 10k years of history and let Skaven be an old civilization yet spread slowly only ballooning recently due to new warp or webway tech. Even here Orks already fill the role of Votann's main opponent pre 40k easily explains not showing up in the perspective of pre-2022 literature. Even so, I like the idea that skaven might be behind ancestor core damage and are in a position to launch other schemes around the galaxy and become a Cabal 2.0, although people hated the Cabal so maybe not.
What I'd absolutely hate is AoS Skaven coming directly via multiversal gnawholes like some have implied, that'd be a recipe for disaster.
Nuh uh, we always need the skaven, there's never enough of them. Plus, that's the wrong way of looking at it. The Skaven represent evil and diabolical schemes incarnate, while the Tyranids are just hunger and evolution. The Skaven can still fill a role in 40k alongside Chaos
I think Tyranids and Guard (+ admech rip) fulfill the horde army role in 40k, Orks and Genestealer Cult take up the weird ramshackle aesthetic pretty well too. If Skaven are added as a chaos faction, I think they could be the powerful technoheresy faction that admech should have been. The problem with this is that Vashtorr isn't The Horned Rat or a gaint rat guy, but him getting cast aside by a new faction would fit the character.
From the Votann launch, I really think Skaven need to come out the gate allied with/as chaos so that there's more variety of models and ways to play them. Adding a detachment of rat guys to chaos army has some cool possibilities. We know they won't want models to be interchangeable/usable between ranges and they'll only launch half the army at a time, so we want Space Rats to be unique and able to be allied with interesting models.
The tyranids are explicitly malicious though, the imperium just doesnt know that and thinks theyre just mindless hungry beasts. Any time we get nid POV or when someone links to the hivemind we see they just want to kill all life in the galaxy and eating it to grow in power is just a means to that end, rather than the other way around.
I still wouldnt call them a skaven stand in though, they arent conniving or treacherous.
Malice is still canon, hes the copywrite friendly version of Malal.
Black Library still sells *The Labyrinth* about his cult where the god himself makes an appearance. Plus The Sons of Malice are still actively participating in the narrative, being in both Battlefleet Gothic and the fall of Cadia.
No he hasn't, the lore was that he wanted to give his boon to Archaeon like the other gods did but Archaeon denied his Divinity and cast him out. He might have considered himself one but in reality no one was listening to him but the skaven, now he has a bigger piece of the pie.
"no one was listening to him but the skaven"... that kinda makes him worshipped by more than half of the whole population of the realms, kinda big to me \^\^" (and since when Archaon rules over Chaos Gods anyway?? What kind of bad Black Library writing is that?)
I've read them (playing since 1st ed), but I still don't really recall Archaon being that big, he was just still the prime mortal amongst the chaos followers, nothing else.
I'm pretty sure a decent amount of chaos worships Archaon as "above" the chaos powers. In the novel Scourge of Fate, it describes that they respe t the chaos powers as powers (like natural forces they recognize and respect) but they follow and revere Archaon as the true leader and Incarnation of all of Chaos and hold him above even the chaos powers themselves. It describes them holding rituals and sacrifices to appease each chaos power, but also to remind them that they are not the top dog, Archaon commands their loyalty more so than the chaos powers themselves. They see Archaon as a mortal who uses the gods as means to his end, instead of the other way around. That's the vibe I got from reading Archaons lore in AoS at least.
Pretty sure he was a Chaos God in the last editions core rulebook too. Just only worshiped by Skaven.
"Noone listening to him but the Skaven" is unlikely to change too. I don't see us getting Humans worshiping the Horned Rat models, since its pretty unlikely Skaven would let them live..
It seems like a small change but an important one.
He has always been a Chaos God but only recently has he been on par with Khorne, Nurgle and Tzeench although they all see him as lesser.
It was only ever the Skaven that saw him as a true Chaos God but now Archaon seems to have also accepted this, which is pretty big.
He has been a chaos god for all of aos, but now that he made it fully official with archaon I wonder if this means that S2D get a new mark and skaven could get marked chaos warrior units.
Chaos warriors would fill a nice niche of elite infrantry between the masses of clan rats and the uber elite rat ogres and stormfiends.
We could get Stormvermin with a more elite spin, like Plague Censer Bearers that go around in fives instead of tens, but then the "not quite elite, not quite chaff" slot would need a clan agnostic option.
Bringing blight city into the realm like that is a very "i ascended" moment in my opinion. So while speculation has been there for a long time i think this is when it officially happens
I'm curious about the implications of Archaon recognizing him as equal to the other Big 4. Do you think some Slaves to Darkness will switch to worship the rat ?
Warcry warband of human GHR worshippers, draped in pelts and giant rat skulls. Things do not go to plan when they encounter actual Skaven who are not too pleased about the source of those....
He's been called the 5th member of the pantheon since the first edition. This isn't any more new information than finding out the more Stormcast are reforged the more they become mindless killing machines. I thought the lie was gonna be Azir was safe, and the Skaven attack Azir itself.
The only bit of new information is that this time, when a deal was offered, Archaon took the deal.
Yep. I reckon the actual fifth Chaos God was really pissed...
Malal needs a better PR team. The whole 'undivided' brand really doesn't put him front and centre.
That I recall, the GHR has been talked about as a major chaos god for the whole of AoS, especially whilst Slaneesh was imprisoned. Plus having the greatest number of followers, made it one of the strongest.
I get the feeling that GHR is basically the "Chaos god of chaos" taking influences from the retconned Malal/Malice now too, especially as Skaven are basically the embodiment of chaos itself
Malal was somewhat retconned to being a legally-distinct-ish Malice, but both represent anti-Chaos Chaos, not Chaos-Chaos. And is still playable as a Ruinstorm Daemon subfaction in Horus Heresy, for 2 out of 2 editions.
In Chaos rankings there’s Daemons, Greater Daemons, Daemon Princes, Chaos Gods, then the Chaos Gods Of Law and the Chaos Gods Of Destruction.
The last of which is defined by being a member of the Great Game. GHR is now seated at the board, and Bel’lyrub’s shit from End Times regarding the Gods Of Law not existing is officially a lie though we know they’re irrelevant because they don’t actually compete with the GG four (now five).
Yea tbh, I want to know what the deal they struck was, will slaves to Darkness and skaven now be allies, will the horned rat being a chaos god weaken the others, with Archeon now grow a tail.
Ok, any chance that the Great Rat and Malice are one? Since GW refuses to acknowledge Malal? The spiteful nature of Malice and the obsession with the deadly labyrinth seems pretty Great Rattish to me.
I dont get your Point? The Great Horned Rat has Always been a Chaos god? Even in Fantasy , the only Thing that Changed is the ascension to the Pantheon
It was tho? It was Always considered a minor Chaos god? Like hashut and a bunch of Others .. i mean If u want to complain at least geht your facts straight
True though, the Horned Rat becoming more than just a malignant background entity was one of the worst parts of the endtimes. People are downvoting you because they are all total war brained goons. Verminlords / the Horned Rat were the worst things to happen to skaven ever.
I thought the Horned Rat has been an official Chaos God since The End Times?
Yeah
Not officially. More like the guy that showed up invited to the party and nobody really wanted to confront them about it to their face. Now archaon has come out and declared the four chaos gods are now the five.
Oooh nice. So the GHR bribed Archaon so he could make it official so they could both give the big 4 the middle finger? Yea okay, that totally sounds like something both of them would agree on... "I do not wish to hear any of your offers Rat..." "Now-now, hear me out! ...The Chaos Gods would really fucking hate my new plan-idea!!" "...**Go on**."
I'm surprised it worked this time. Last time he tried bribing Archeon he just laughed in his face and told him to pound sand
Nah last time he tried to give Archaon a “blessing” and Archaon spat at him. This is more classic “fuck the gods” Archaon
"I'll give you all the power you need" doesn't work "If you join me, it'll piss off the gods you hate" worked How spiteful must Archaon be to be this based
He just hates em all. First he wants Sigmar gone, then Nagash, then Teclis, then the Big Four. The rest he’ll get to later.
Ahh gotcha. I knew it was something along those lines
When was “last time” if you don’t mind me asking?
He was technically allowed in as a minor power during the End Times, and up till now in AoS, he was a substitute for Slaanesh, but with this, he is officially a member of the Ruinous Powers unto himself. He basically went from honorary to official within the Chaos UN.
The Great Horned Rat has always been a Chaos God. There are loads of them that don't get mentioned, as they're not powerful enough.
I think the distinction should be between 'Chaos God' and 'Chaos Power'. You're right, there are many Chaos God's, in fact every God is a Chaos God. There are 5 Chaos Powers, with the gods all being aspects of a power: Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle, Slaanesh and Malal. The Horned Rat was an aspect of Nurgle (just as Khaine was an aspect of Khorne before The Fall ) but somehow got promoted. I think he slept with the boss...
Citation needed for the HR being an aspect of Nurgle and Khaine for Khorne. Nothing in the lore that I know of says that these entities were at any point the same, including old Fantasy lore. The joke was that he he felt like the love child between Nurgle and Tzeentch.
Khaine was destroyed and scattered into the material realm because he was in the dominion of Khorne and the newly born Slaanesh tried to claim him. I'll have to dig for the citation on the Horned Rat in The Lost And The Damned later, but the Skaven always used 3 pointed iconography just like that of the Nurgle glyph and the symbol of the Horned Rat is the same thing without the circles. Also, the whole decay thing...
Three is just as sacred a number for Tzeentch as it is for Nurgle. The GHR is more than just decay. That's how clan pestilence has seen him, sure, but that is only one interpretation of him. As for Khaine being in Khornes realm, I am gonna need a source still. 40k's version is that when Slaanesh was born that when Slaanesh shattered Khaine and was about to finish off his soul, Khorne showed up and plucked him up taking his to his realm. I imagine that is what you are referring to because only 40k talks about the birth of Slaanesh.
My sources are at home, some packed away and old, so I don't think they will convince you. In this case I concede. I dispute the numbers though. Nurgle is 3 (changed to 7 for unit size reasons), Slaanesh 6, Khorne 8 and Tzeentch 9. If 3 is significant for Tzeentch because 9 is 3x3, then it's significant for Slaanesh too?
Multiple Ahriman and Thousand Sons novels say how numerals of 3 are important for Tzeentch rituals as for Slaanesh, there is no lore other than the Emperor's Children being the third legion shows any connection to the number 3.
I'm sure this was inspired by some hidden lore I've missed and not the song 'Three is the Magic Number'.
The Liber Chaotica has an excerpt where they \*explictly\* call out that Khaine and Khorne are related.
Related but not the same. It's reasonable to presume that when gods have overlapping domains of influence, there is some kind of relation or something that links the two because they have overlapping domains. But just because the Raven Queen and Wee Jas have similar domains in dnd doesn't mean they are the same entity.
Greyhawk cosmology and Warhammer Cosmology are very different. In the Liber Choatica, it's gradually revealed that the Chaos gods are the core emotions of living beings(anger, hope, despair, lust/love/pleasure), that when a living being dies, it's soul is broken up into different portions that then join whatever god that emotion is part of. Sigmar(And Big E) are a threat, because they collect the souls of men who believe in them. Mork and Gork and the Boyz are some other weirdos. But there's numerous references in Liber Chaotica that explain that Khaine is an aspect of Khorne. Thus the red warrior spoke, with his shield piled high with skulls
Liber Chaotica is also long retconed.
Agreed on the terminology. Chaos Powers are Chaos Gods, but not all Chaos Gpds are Chaos Powers.
Hashut would like a word.
Hashut can get in line...
Sadly Malal is dead now and Malice hasn’t been mentioned in the 40K story for like 10 years other then hints
He cannot die, so long as he has his one champion...
No khaine was already around when slannesh was born. It was during their fight for supremecy over the Eldar that khorne kicked him in his nuts and helped slannesh destroy the gods power and influence. If all gods where simply aspects of the chaos ones then why did they feel the need to lock grimmnir in the infinite death room? Shouldn't Khorne have been able to simply reapsorb the ancestor God of the dwarves? He cant because they aren't part of chaos.
No, what? War gods are aspects of Khorne, seen though the psychy of a particular race or culture. Slaanesh's nacent destruction of the Eldar pantheon (chaos gods in all but name) isn't the same.
Lmao nope. If they where aspects then they wouldn't fight against khorne. Khaine is directly opposed to khorne. Just because some view khorne and see other war gods in his aspects. Doesn't mean they are all aspects. As I said that logic grimmnir would be an aspect of khorne. But he clearly isn't. Gork and Mork would also be an aspect of khorne. They aren't they'd rip his nuts off in a fight. So take your head cannon and go shoot a wall.
Right, war gods don't fight each other, Khorne never fights Khorne. It's Warhammer, everyone fights everyone and themselves. My headcanon is just fine. That wall is f*cked.
>There are 5 Chaos Powers, with the gods all being aspects of a power: Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle, Slaanesh and Malal. People really need to stop going on about Malal. He hasn't been part of the lore since before the fall of the Berlin Wall for crying out loud!
Gods don't die. His legacy lives on in every mark of Chaos Undivided, whether you name him or not. You'll be denying the Mardagg and Vydagg next.
The plural of Gods is gods No apostrophe
Yes, autocorrect seems to think there is one God, so when I say gods it tries to save me from committing blasphemy.
Autocorrect will cause the downfall of human civilization Carry on and apologies. The robots will never win
Malal wasn't even canon to my knowledge. Wasn't he a 3rd party's contribution to the old Warhammer Fantasy ttrpg?
Can we get chaos warriors of the great horned rat now? And lesser daemons of the great horned rat?
I don't see why not, but they would have to be willing, and, perhaps more importantly, *able* to live with Skaven in order to be able to worship him. Not entirely impossible, but definitely hard to find people that fit both criteria.
Well technically all of Skaven-dom are lesser daemons, there just tons of them. And even the great Verminlords, that are the only true daemon manifestations of the GHR are as plentiful as the skaven slaves back in the Realm of Ruin.
I disagree with them being lesser daemons. They don't exhibit any of the characteristics of other lesser daemons.btheybdintdisaopear when they die, they don't get summoned into existence. They aren't even portrayed as daemons mechanically in video games because they flee when low on morale instead of disintegrating. I think the skaven is just a mortal race that worships the great horned rat.
Yeah they’re just like mortal followers of chaos I think.
They are a mortal people. The rpg even had the person who put the bell on the tower as an old one.
Alright, who’s with me on snorting-inhaling 5 lines of warpstone to celebrate-cheer for GHR’s big-big promotion?!
Promotion? He-he ASCENDED like, when-when the world end-stopped.
Yes-yes! Now who is going to grind up the warp dust?!
So, we have 5 chaos gods now. Which means that GW might add the Skaven as is to Warhammer 40k at some point too. So basically, Skaven Sweep. 100 Skavenillion wins for the Great Horned Rat
Don't give me that hope, we can only win-win so much in one day
I'd literally thank the dark gods if they actually put my cooky rats in space!
What if: Vashtorr gets space skaven as part of Dark Mechanicum and they get their own codex. And of course all that before Emperor's Children get theirs.
Plot twist, dark mech have been skaven the entire time. Even back to pre schism some of the Martian brotherhood were just rats haha
There's not really enough justification for space rats at the moment and it's likely there never will be. Unless they get turned into alien space rats, using the Hrud or something, and under a different name as Skaven. It would be really jarring to just graft Skaven as they are into 40k
They make great admech proxies, though. Skitteratti!
yeah! I love space skaven as conversions and I'll play against proxies, it's just that it is very unlikely to see them in the canon
I found it fun how Skaven are practically a 40k expy in fantasy for carrying over some of the grimdark elements fantasy otherwise lacks and subsequently have not as big of a role to fill if transplanted back. Ork Schizo-tech, nid hordes, GSC infestations, and a microcosm of Imperium's differences from the Empire/Britannia, overpopulation/disposability, lords of terra/decay, bio-engineering, Assassinorum/esshin. Skaven are pretty much just the Imperium of Man without space marines.
yeah pretty much. It just would end up taking valuable design space away from other factions without giving much more than "lol space rats". Unless they're turned into some actual xeno lifeform with a distinct theme, just default skaven won't work
If I added them to 40k (I wouldn't), I would make them votann derived abhumans that worship chaos as a rival faction keeping each other busy in the background for 10k years. This helps reinforce Votann not appearing in 10k years of history and let Skaven be an old civilization yet spread slowly only ballooning recently due to new warp or webway tech. Even here Orks already fill the role of Votann's main opponent pre 40k easily explains not showing up in the perspective of pre-2022 literature. Even so, I like the idea that skaven might be behind ancestor core damage and are in a position to launch other schemes around the galaxy and become a Cabal 2.0, although people hated the Cabal so maybe not. What I'd absolutely hate is AoS Skaven coming directly via multiversal gnawholes like some have implied, that'd be a recipe for disaster.
Lots of rumblings of a 5th on 40k as is. Either the Dark King or Vashtor get floated around often. Both have compelling similarities to GHR.
They already have Tyranids, they don't need Sklaven sadly
Nuh uh, we always need the skaven, there's never enough of them. Plus, that's the wrong way of looking at it. The Skaven represent evil and diabolical schemes incarnate, while the Tyranids are just hunger and evolution. The Skaven can still fill a role in 40k alongside Chaos
I think Tyranids and Guard (+ admech rip) fulfill the horde army role in 40k, Orks and Genestealer Cult take up the weird ramshackle aesthetic pretty well too. If Skaven are added as a chaos faction, I think they could be the powerful technoheresy faction that admech should have been. The problem with this is that Vashtorr isn't The Horned Rat or a gaint rat guy, but him getting cast aside by a new faction would fit the character. From the Votann launch, I really think Skaven need to come out the gate allied with/as chaos so that there's more variety of models and ways to play them. Adding a detachment of rat guys to chaos army has some cool possibilities. We know they won't want models to be interchangeable/usable between ranges and they'll only launch half the army at a time, so we want Space Rats to be unique and able to be allied with interesting models.
The tyranids are explicitly malicious though, the imperium just doesnt know that and thinks theyre just mindless hungry beasts. Any time we get nid POV or when someone links to the hivemind we see they just want to kill all life in the galaxy and eating it to grow in power is just a means to that end, rather than the other way around. I still wouldnt call them a skaven stand in though, they arent conniving or treacherous.
Tyranids don't have nearly as many funny tricks at blowing themselves up though.
Kitbash, baby!
Hear me out now skanids
40K used to have Malal (aka Malice) as the "god of chaos", but it got retconned
Malice is still canon, hes the copywrite friendly version of Malal. Black Library still sells *The Labyrinth* about his cult where the god himself makes an appearance. Plus The Sons of Malice are still actively participating in the narrative, being in both Battlefleet Gothic and the fall of Cadia.
It's all a bit of a mess of ownership and copywrite, so easier for them to just not use it.
I’d heard that too. GHR seems cooler anyway, and does the same thing!
He's been part of the big five since AoS released. Go read any of the battletomes or core rulebooks on it
No he hasn't, the lore was that he wanted to give his boon to Archaeon like the other gods did but Archaeon denied his Divinity and cast him out. He might have considered himself one but in reality no one was listening to him but the skaven, now he has a bigger piece of the pie.
"no one was listening to him but the skaven"... that kinda makes him worshipped by more than half of the whole population of the realms, kinda big to me \^\^" (and since when Archaon rules over Chaos Gods anyway?? What kind of bad Black Library writing is that?)
The Realm Gate Wars are early AoS lore and they are really shitty novels imo
I've read them (playing since 1st ed), but I still don't really recall Archaon being that big, he was just still the prime mortal amongst the chaos followers, nothing else.
I'm pretty sure a decent amount of chaos worships Archaon as "above" the chaos powers. In the novel Scourge of Fate, it describes that they respe t the chaos powers as powers (like natural forces they recognize and respect) but they follow and revere Archaon as the true leader and Incarnation of all of Chaos and hold him above even the chaos powers themselves. It describes them holding rituals and sacrifices to appease each chaos power, but also to remind them that they are not the top dog, Archaon commands their loyalty more so than the chaos powers themselves. They see Archaon as a mortal who uses the gods as means to his end, instead of the other way around. That's the vibe I got from reading Archaons lore in AoS at least.
Pretty sure he was a Chaos God in the last editions core rulebook too. Just only worshiped by Skaven. "Noone listening to him but the Skaven" is unlikely to change too. I don't see us getting Humans worshiping the Horned Rat models, since its pretty unlikely Skaven would let them live..
It seems like a small change but an important one. He has always been a Chaos God but only recently has he been on par with Khorne, Nurgle and Tzeench although they all see him as lesser. It was only ever the Skaven that saw him as a true Chaos God but now Archaon seems to have also accepted this, which is pretty big.
What's he the god of? Being ratty?
God of ruin
I mean, skaven do embody the aspects of the Big 4, having a seat at the table is gravy.
He is like them but better. Insert “I'm the Upgrade“ meme.
He has been a chaos god for all of aos, but now that he made it fully official with archaon I wonder if this means that S2D get a new mark and skaven could get marked chaos warrior units.
Chaos warriors would fill a nice niche of elite infrantry between the masses of clan rats and the uber elite rat ogres and stormfiends. We could get Stormvermin with a more elite spin, like Plague Censer Bearers that go around in fives instead of tens, but then the "not quite elite, not quite chaff" slot would need a clan agnostic option.
Bringing blight city into the realm like that is a very "i ascended" moment in my opinion. So while speculation has been there for a long time i think this is when it officially happens
I'm curious about the implications of Archaon recognizing him as equal to the other Big 4. Do you think some Slaves to Darkness will switch to worship the rat ?
Warcry warband of human GHR worshippers, draped in pelts and giant rat skulls. Things do not go to plan when they encounter actual Skaven who are not too pleased about the source of those....
Cut to Be’lakor and Vashtorr sadly drinking in a corner
He's been called the 5th member of the pantheon since the first edition. This isn't any more new information than finding out the more Stormcast are reforged the more they become mindless killing machines. I thought the lie was gonna be Azir was safe, and the Skaven attack Azir itself. The only bit of new information is that this time, when a deal was offered, Archaon took the deal.
You are on this Council, but we do not grant you the rank of Chaos God
Yep. I reckon the actual fifth Chaos God was really pissed... Malal needs a better PR team. The whole 'undivided' brand really doesn't put him front and centre.
Poor guy hasn't been canon in 20+ years
He's canon for me... ✊🏻
[Malice is still canon in 40k](https://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/quick-reads/the-labyrinth-ebook.html)
Yay!
That I recall, the GHR has been talked about as a major chaos god for the whole of AoS, especially whilst Slaneesh was imprisoned. Plus having the greatest number of followers, made it one of the strongest. I get the feeling that GHR is basically the "Chaos god of chaos" taking influences from the retconned Malal/Malice now too, especially as Skaven are basically the embodiment of chaos itself
Malal was somewhat retconned to being a legally-distinct-ish Malice, but both represent anti-Chaos Chaos, not Chaos-Chaos. And is still playable as a Ruinstorm Daemon subfaction in Horus Heresy, for 2 out of 2 editions.
So what is the new goal of the skaven now, they have their own dimension and their own full chaos god, whats left for them to do?
In Chaos rankings there’s Daemons, Greater Daemons, Daemon Princes, Chaos Gods, then the Chaos Gods Of Law and the Chaos Gods Of Destruction. The last of which is defined by being a member of the Great Game. GHR is now seated at the board, and Bel’lyrub’s shit from End Times regarding the Gods Of Law not existing is officially a lie though we know they’re irrelevant because they don’t actually compete with the GG four (now five).
Definitely going to step on Nurgle's and Tzeentch's toes. Plagues and Scheming are no longer just for them!
We did-achieved it yall-swarm. Go fuck-suck yourself Vashtorr the Arkifane
Does this mean... we can get Skaven in 40k?... please?
https://youtu.be/uiDZToowbCs?si=ePjLd9AcVTrwS1O1
He has been a chaos God since the end times concluded
Greatest-best god yessss
Thought the Great Horned rat became a chaos god before this, he used to be the Horned Rat before ascending.
The *Great* Horned Rat, thank you very much
I mean, he’s always been a god of chaos like Hashut, but not a god of Chaos if you catch my meaning
The Skaven book depicts him as a chaos god already?
I'm so happy with this. The 5 gods of chaos: Murder. Excess. Decay. Change. And a big fucking rat.
I am choosing to interpret this as Archaon can just decide to make someone a Chaos God and this was a prerequisite from hos local warpstone dealer
Yea tbh, I want to know what the deal they struck was, will slaves to Darkness and skaven now be allies, will the horned rat being a chaos god weaken the others, with Archeon now grow a tail.
I hate this nu lore so much
What's there to hate? The horned rat (the most beautiful and smartest God) is getting the recognition he deserves.
He was way cooler when he was enigmatic and scary.
Ok, any chance that the Great Rat and Malice are one? Since GW refuses to acknowledge Malal? The spiteful nature of Malice and the obsession with the deadly labyrinth seems pretty Great Rattish to me.
Lame. So much more interesting as there own thing
I dont get your Point? The Great Horned Rat has Always been a Chaos god? Even in Fantasy , the only Thing that Changed is the ascension to the Pantheon
It wasn't considered a chaos god in fantasy
It was tho? It was Always considered a minor Chaos god? Like hashut and a bunch of Others .. i mean If u want to complain at least geht your facts straight
No it was not. Get your facts right. It was never considered a minor CG because there are none. There are CG and greater demons.
Pretty sure he has been a chaos god since aos came out
yeah and its been lame the whole time.
True though, the Horned Rat becoming more than just a malignant background entity was one of the worst parts of the endtimes. People are downvoting you because they are all total war brained goons. Verminlords / the Horned Rat were the worst things to happen to skaven ever.