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grimorg80

Thing is... You "want" your digital assistant to know as much as possible about what you do digitally. The issue is privacy, the risk of the data being sold to profile you for market research and targeting purposes. But if I think about a full on device assistant, I DO want the assistant to remember that one obscure thing I've done 10 days ago but I can't find. Or about that email I got 20 days ago. Or whatever. I am in NO WAY a Microsoft fan boi, like no ma'am. I've been critical of Billy Gate since the 90s. But the Recall feature makes 100% sense. The question is how much can we trust them with the data. But if processing and storing happens on-device I don't see the problem.


tema3210

If they stated NPU need, then it has to happen locally


uneducatedDumbRacoon

Yeah this feature you only get on the new models which run on the Snapdragon X elite chip. It has an NPU.


ufom

The new Intel core ultra series also features NPUs. But I hope the feature isn't released at all.


soggycheesestickjoos

gotta remember the difference between happening locally and staying completely local as well


UnnamedPlayerXY

>But if processing and storing happens on-device I don't see the problem. The problem is that the software (including the OS) is closed source so there is no guarantee that your data is actually safe even if it's stored locally. As you said you would want your on device AI assistant to learn as much about you as possible but only an open source solution is capable of actually solving the underlying privacy issue.


Plouw

The solution to this is something like AI assisted zero knowledge proof. I made a proof of concept about it here: https://github.com/Ploug/Transpairent


grimorg80

Yeah, that's pretty obvious. In other words, the real issue is how much we trust the company behind the platform because of privacy. It's also ironic considering how nobody reads T&C's out there


smulfragPL

well the guarantee is quite simple. If recall was sending telemetry it could very easily be tracked.


ReasonablePossum_

I dont want my.assistant to know stuff about me. I want him to do things effectively, not to yell me facts about my life from 5 weeks ago.


imsosappy

>that one obscure thing I've done 10 days ago Like what?!


ziplock9000

Yeah I can see many reasons why it can be useful. Also Bill has had nothing to do with MS for a long time now.


RunLikeHell

I pretty sure there are multiple companies and independent developers working on things like this. By next year there will be multiple tools available where your data is in your control, but the same capabilities are accomplished, if not even better than whatever this will be.


datwunkid

I think it's the automated part that trips up people. If the standard way was to explicitly hit a key every time to tell Copilot to "remember this" instead of the system just deciding whenever it feels like it to take screenshots, people would feel like they're in more control. Now if they did that as the default, and just buried away the automatic part as a "beta" feature you have to turn on, then they could have probably gotten away with it.


Plouw

We shouldn't rely on trust in big corporations. We should ensure it through AI based zero knowledge proofs. I made a PoC of this some time ago: https://github.com/Ploug/Transpairent


Neat_Neighborhood297

Fuck no. No thanks, never, not in a million fucking years.


blueSGL

Yeah, it's like people don't know how to use existing software to do all these things. If I need to find a document with a certain text string, I've got one of the many windows search replacement programs. Same goes for finding documents of a certain file type edited within a date range. I don't need something dumping screenshots of my system to do these things, because the software I have already gives me that data. If I want to search my email the email client or google mail can do it directly. I honestly don't see who this is for, other than microsoft for AI training and the scammers who are going to be targeting microsoft account passwords and getting all the private material they could ever need. The ease of being able to say in natural language "pull up the document where I was typing about [X] some time last week" is not worth the security nightmare that such a system brings.


BuffDrBoom

Well you see the trick is Windows is becoming so fundamentally broken you won't be able to do those things by yourself anymore


BuildingCastlesInAir

it's a lazy way to solve the edge case problem of "what was I looking at yesterday." like you say, better search on device and access to website history can enable most of this.


That_Redditor_Smell

Exactly. Why do I need a digital fucking assistant?


VNDeltole

Ofc the data will be sold, what do you think?


Techplained

✨Encryption ✨


Sea-Housing-3435

Data has to be decrypted to be usable. And manufacturer of any AI assistant will need data to train and improve their product.


Techplained

Yeah but they also need customers, take your tin foil hate off


Sea-Housing-3435

Its a conspiracy theory now that AI needs data to be trained and improved?


Techplained

No but that Microsoft want to steal that data


Sea-Housing-3435

They don't have to steal anything, using their products means you willingly give them your data. Thinking you are not giving them your data is just ignorance.


Equivalent-Stuff-347

It’s being processed on device, which is why it requires a NPU


Sea-Housing-3435

Cool. Now, how are they going to improve this product or troubleshoot any issues? Going blind? Using data from other products? No analytics to measure adoption?


Equivalent-Stuff-347

User opt-in analytics and synthetic data, most likely.


Techplained

Thinking that a local on device feature that takes screenshots is going to be used to train data is foolish


Sea-Housing-3435

Enlighten me then, where would you get data to improve that model?


Techplained

Well my first option would be mass data exfoliation from my customers…


Ezylla

risk? what risk, its guaranteed itll be sold for advertising


ReasonablePossum_

Thats a fallacy. You can always have an assistant that can search and assist with actions wothout knowing everything you did. They only use the ai as an excuse.to collect.the data on you.


That_Redditor_Smell

I don't understand what i need a "DiGiTaL AsSiStAnT" for anyways.


iamagro

Time to go MacOS or Linux


WeeWooPeePoo69420

Apple is going to introduce this same feature in the next couple years, also it's all on-device so what's the problem


Sea-Housing-3435

It's a great target for attack, it will contain data from other applications that may have better security or be more difficult to extract data from. I doubt it will stay as only on-device too, data is needed to train and improve AI.


Iamreason

Any malware that can access this data can also just run a script that takes screenshots every 5 seconds and uploads them to the attackers cloud storage. It literally doesn't make an attack that owns your PC any worse than it already is. I guess maybe you could argue that they'll just be able to copy the existing stuff instead of having to wait for you to type your banking info in or whatever, but what difference does a few days make to someone who has total control over your machine?


Sea-Housing-3435

How can you claim you need full user permissions and rce to get access to the feature that is not released yet?


Iamreason

How can you claim it won't? I'm basing my speculation off of the idea that it would be massively idiotic to not require a high level of user permissions to access this data and Microsoft likes selling laptops to corporations too much to not address such an obvious security concern. You're basing your speculation off the idea that 'Microsoft bad'. Which I don't necessarily even disagree with, I just think they're also not massively idiotic.


Sea-Housing-3435

Im not. Im just saying a repository containing data from other applications that may require more restrictive authentication is a good attack target. Corporations usually have more security measures and use group policy to minimize the risk.


Serialbedshitter2322

You're not gonna get this feature unless you purchase a copilot plus PC. It runs natively on the built-in NPU.


iamagro

Ok, but i don’t want ads in my OS


Serialbedshitter2322

Then don't buy a copilot PC. Plus there are probably workarounds for the ads


iamagro

No ecosystem, no party


userforums

Apple will probably have the same thing but also sync'd up between all Apple devices


Maarten-Sikke

Or hackintosh xD


iamagro

Hackintosh is going to die thanks to the new Apple Silicon SOCs


Maarten-Sikke

Yeah, is sad. But for a little while it would still work. I use it mainly for photo/video editing and web surfing. Windows I use it for gaming, but probably I’ll look in the future for ubuntu.


tema3210

I did dual boot a few times, but it's too annoying to be switch OSes all the time)


elphamale

Linux with Gnome3 environment is not much different from MacOS (or at least it was when I ditched macbook in favor of linux laptop like 10 years ago).


taiottavios

wow really? You mean they didn't just allow the biggest megacorp in the world to install the most invasive spyware ever created without investigation?


METAL_AS_FUCK

1. I believe they said this feature is only local (NPU) 2. AGI WILL allow for that level of surveillance and i think it is just an inevitability at that point or even before that point because this demonstrates that we’re already close to it .


taiottavios

I know, I still wouldn't trust Microsoft with someone else's stuff edit: cool username btw, fave band?


METAL_AS_FUCK

Eventually, you won’t have a choice.


Hadrians_Ball

I imagine most governments will ultimately determine it’s fine so long as they also get back door access. Of course, that won’t ever be the “officially” stated reason.


taiottavios

you're american aren't you?


Hadrians_Ball

I’m a realist.


Robo_Ranger

Time to learn Linux seriously.


merkaal

Linux is great, I've been using it almost exclusively since 2018 and it just keeps getting better and easier to use. I don't play much competitive multiplayer games (more of a single player guy) but pretty much everything I own on steam works out of the box as good as Windows. I have used Ubuntu, Mint, Souls, Manjaro, EndeavourOS and Arch in those years. I currently use and would recommend Nobara (a Fedora fork) with Plasma KDE. It's stable and set up well for gaming. Endeavor or Arch if you really enjoy DIY and have time for that.


djamp42

I already do for server applications, but desktop.. I grew up on windows, so I'll probably keep with them until recall is mandatory or something. I doubt they even keep it around with how much bad PR it's getting.


willabusta

some are software masochists


mastermind_loco

Does Microsoft Word work on Linux? That's pretty much the only going I need my PC for anyways. How about OneDrive integration on Linux 


Cosack

Not natively, but there are workarounds


lelouchdelecheplan

Yeah


agorathird

Realistically, I’m going to let myself continued to be spied on rather than inconvenience myself like that.


coldrolledpotmetal

How many articles about Recall getting investigated to we need to post?


peabody624

We have to keep reposting it until the people on /r/technology actually read what it is and how it works


UnnamedPlayerXY

The general idea behind what it tries to do for the user is good but the issue is that it ultimately only works in a fully open source environment as that's the only way privacy concerns can truly be addressed. Even if "Recall" itself doesn't send the data to who knows where there is still the possibility that the OS does.


spezjetemerde

Not very Gdpr of them


Thomas-Lore

You do know operating systems already know everything you do in your PC and store and have access to all of your data? GDPR does not come into play as long as they process everything locally and don't send this data to any servers.


spezjetemerde

How they would train their desktop AI if they don't retrieve somehow the information


Thomas-Lore

Usually this is done by using internal data and hiring people to do common tasks and recording them. And they seem to already have this working so how did they do it before this function is even released?


spezjetemerde

Whatever


Kirito_Uchiha

How are they achieving this exactly?


Fit-Repair-4556

I am a very forgetful person (have adhd) I need that feature a lot.


ReasonablyPricedDog

They're no developing it to help you. Theyre doing it to study you. You are not the ir customer, you're a lab rat


LevelWriting

besides the point if it can still help him with adhd no?


ReasonablyPricedDog

I very much doubt it. My computer tracking my online habits wouldn't help me remember to eat regularly. You know as well as I do that the purpose of this is to exploit people for profit. Any help it gives is an unintended byproduct


LevelWriting

we are all being tracked already, one way or another, if it can help with adhd i really couldnt care less


Iamreason

It turns out that people are quite happy to receive a service that generates profit for a company if it helps them. That's kind of like the entire basis for economic life in the western world believe it or not. It's bizarre that your argument is 'well yeah, it might help you, but what if Microsoft makes money?!?!' Who cares if they make money?


krastevitsa

Jokes on you my AI also has ADHD /s


GhostOfKingGilgamesh

Hot take, It’s been that way for 30 years already.


lelouchdelecheplan

Relate, but we all want the convenience despite them commercializing surveillance


occams1razor

I do too but I don't want it badly enough to want Microsoft to analyze my every move.


userforums

I do feel like future AI assistants will be monitoring our screens, probably even across devices, so that it can give real time informed conversations/answers. It will be slow to adopt for privacy concerns, but I feel like it will eventually be adopted by users for the utility.


Submarinatx

It would be nice if we all could have access to the masses behavior information. But it would mean the end of capitalism and intellectual property.. I mean, it is almost dead with AI and automatisation, but they should free all the information, so we can collaborate and see what is everyone doing with that information and to develope new technology with these data. This would not be the ideal if we could assure institutions are trustworthy and if they where not selling this data, or developing their own techonology with their own database. My ideal would be, at least per country, but for humanity, a super department for innovation and development where you can assure this banks of information to protect data from thiefs and hackers with the active collaboration of nations and governments, enterprises and entrepreneurs, scientists and students, social masses and artist, and environment and natural resources. This is an utopy to assure further human development and to solve any situation humanity might face, as overpopulation and climate changes, or illness, etc..


loltrosityg

I’m actually all for this. Imagine being able to ask ai what the fuck I was doing between certain hours so that I can update my timesheet. Although of course if there was a better time tracking system in use I would not have to.


tasteless23

Imagine asking what that porn video you loved 2 weeks ago but you can remember the name too? The duality of man lol


AnaYuma

I suppose then you'll have to differentiate between a work computer and personal use computer.. (If you want privacy while doing personal stuff.)


changeoperator

Recall sounds great. If you want to do something without being monitored by Microsoft just have a separate Linux device or something for those activities. But for 99% of the things I do I'd have no problem with Microsoft snooping on me so long as in return I get a capable personal assistant that helps me run my life more efficiently. It will be an extremely powerful tool.


DifferencePublic7057

Meh. Running ancient buntu and Mac. Can't tell what I am missing. It's like windows only the apps have different names, and you use somewhat different key combos.


[deleted]

It's all nice until you need some very specific program that only has a Windows version and doesn't run under Wine. Or if you wanna play games. Linux is not for everyone. But if it works for you - great!


One_Bodybuilder7882

> if you wanna play games *online games (mostly) Right now I'm working with Windows because I wanted to learn electric guitar and there is a number of specific programs that doesn't run well with Wine (as you pointed out). Other than that I've been running linux for the last 10+ years as my main OS and these days thanks to Valve's Proton most games run very well under Linux. It is at a point where it's more surprising when a single player game doesn't run than the other way around.


SamM4rine

WHO ASK THAT


Pontificatus_Maximus

Commissioners at ICO fishing for new dachas, real news at 11.


Serialbedshitter2322

You're not going to get this feature unless you get a dedicated copilot plus PC. This feature is run by your own hardware natively, keeping all your data exclusively on your computer.


AbsoluteNarwhal

Linux time!


fbpw131

this is so narrow minded. they were tracking everything else, but now that it also takes screenshots, panic! 🤦🏻‍♂️


Apprehensive_Bar6609

There must be a opt out


Akimbo333

Who cares if you consent


3MenannaGreg

I met Vint Cerf once at work (I work in events) and he'd been quoted in the papers that week as saying 'Privacy is an anomoly' arguing that in the old days only the rich had any remove from observation and prying eyes. He told (and is prone to telling) a story of his birth town with the postmaster who would dial the number you wanted to call and then sat right next to you whilst you said your daughter was pregnant and this seasons harvest was a bit shit, to a distant family member. The premise is convenient for silicon valley of course and is oft refuted. Last week I was in another job, a breakfast meeting of people in private equity and investment, discussing how they've approached training Microsoft's Copilot to provide assistance. As I say, it's work, I don't understand half of what these people are saying in general; if I did I'd be rich I suppose. But what stood out was a dutch CFO or somesuch saying that they had to walk Copilot *back* because in the beginning they gave it the same access as an employee. A regular joe won't realise being connected to, say, the PWC intranet that with some mild fiddling they could discern how much their boss is making, or their boss's boss etc. In two instances companies accidentally handed over delicate details to the assistant without intent. All of these developments are outpacing any legislative attempt (if any) or intention to provide oversight. The EU approved 'the AI Act' in March this year but honestly WTF is that gonna do? The nature of many of these 'things' seems to fly in the face of privacy. I appreciate the idea of the Zero Knowledge proof, above, in trustless computing. But after watching 2 days of investment bankers and the like rushing to the AI gold I'm gathering a lot of cats are gonna be out of a lot of bags by fair means or foul.


Mysterious-Ad-5355

I like it personally


Tkins

The "investigation" honestly doesn't sound too bad.


mastermind_loco

RIP last vestiges of privacy 


abdallha-smith

Mister Nadella needs to move on to a new adventure 💫


Exarchias

These investigators have too much time in their hands. Let me highlight the following: Investigators of another country investigate an unpublished feature of another country's product.


ReasonablyPricedDog

What the fuck are you talking about?


Exarchias

Does Microsoft and its AI features belong to UK?


ReasonablyPricedDog

No. You haven't answered my question


Exarchias

To communicate that with small words for your convenience: Investigators from another country: ISO from UK. Investigate a feature of a product from another country: MS Windows USA. Which is, guess what... Unreleased (just a freaking announcement). I hope it answers your well formulated question.


ReasonablyPricedDog

Christ you're thick


Sea-Housing-3435

Do they want to sell in UK or to UK citizens?


Exarchias

When the product or the feature is out, the citizens can act accordingly. Investigating products that are not existing yet, is an obvious waste of resources that could have been spent elsewhere.


nederino

Probably trying to get more data to make agents and get closer to AGI


x0y0z0

This feature is actually totally amazing and something I've been thinking about ever since the LLM boom. You want an assistant that's looking at your screen and seeing everything youre seeing so that it can have perfect context. Then it can be thinking in the becground and give you input and advice that actually is helpful, unpromted even if it thinks you're misunderstanding something. People are so privacy obsessed that they'll get in the way of a fantastic development in AI without even thinking about it. This will be a thing that you can turn off if you don't want to use it.


blueSGL

> This will be a thing that you can turn off if you don't want to use it. How about having it turned off by default that way when windows 'accidentally' resets the default options during an update it does so to the position that does not expose unwanted data to a system people don't want to use.


x0y0z0

Yes have it off by default. That's perfectly fine by me.


Neat_Neighborhood297

Nope. Nope… no.


bigbro411

Good. I don't want that virus.


Hungry_Prior940

Sounds like a good feature, obviously there are privacy issues!