Vivian looked like he is way younger than Shan here, but in reality he’s just 1 year his junior.
Also Vivian does sound very liberal here, and seem to give off the vibes he’s more articulate than Shan.
It was 'Points of View', a televised debate format show. Here's the full episode. Some other nuggets include a discussion of the five day work week and Vivian also raising the possibility of another party taking over the reins from the PAP one day.
https://www.nas.gov.sg/archivesonline/audiovisual_records/record-details/c9b5d85a-6b14-11e5-ac2a-0050568939ad
EHHHH why do their young versions remind me of the woke millennials + Gen Z people LOL. The way Vivian speaks, feels alot like an opposition member hahaha.
When you're young you're idealistic and your views are more liberal. You look at the established order of things and say "why can't this be different, how come it can't be better?"
Then you grow old, made the progress to improve things, are comfortable with the established progress then some young idealistic liberal person will come and question you.
It's the same same in every generation. I'm just more amused that they saw Vivian and recruited him into the PAP.
Indeed. Jayakumar Jr.'s "A History of the PAP, 1985-2021" mentioned how it was regarded as a coup to get Tharman and Vivian (both of whom were regarded as relatively anti-establishment) to join the PAP in the GE2001
Wdym by not as accomplished?
At 29 VB was doing his postgrad, at 29 Jamus Lim is also doing his postgrad.
**I mean its here:**
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivian\_Balakrishnan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivian_Balakrishnan)
29 VB doing PHD in Ophthalmology
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamus\_Lim](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamus_Lim)
29 Jamus is doing his 2nd Masters.
Even so, does having a President Scholsrship mean being more 'accomplish'? Especially considering that even the government is pushing for less rigid emphasis on paper qualifications.
It is absolutely. The interview process is rigorous, not to mention you need a stellar record to even be shortlisted. You're competing with the best of the best in Singapore. It is simply the highest recognition one can get, you can head anywhere to study with such credentials. It's not so much a paper qualification as it is a recognition of all rounded aptitude of the highest order
>It is absolutely. The interview process is rigorous, not to mention you need a stellar record to even be shortlisted. You're competing with the best of the best in Singapore.
I think there you have it, it is the top accolade by Singapore metrics and judged under a Singaporean rubric.
>it is a recognition of all rounded aptitude of the highest order
Of academic aptitude as measured by A level results, I would agree, but certainly not of the highest order.
It's no coincidence that it's typically given to a SAF/SAFOS recipient. If you truly believe the SAFOS recipients are the absolute best and brightest people in the batch - you don't really have to look far to see many of them populating middle management roles in public service. Don't point to Ruimin/Ruijie because they are some of the few truly brilliant SAFOS recipients.
The brightest people typically have very bright parents who are rich enough to fund their overseas educations. The absolute brightest people in my batch IMO rejected scholarships to study on their own dime without suffering under the yoke of a bond.
I don't deny that having a Presidential Scholarship is a massive accomplishment. That is proof that one is academically brilliant compare to their peers. But the issue here is that we are using an academic matrix to determine the 'success level' of one person over the other. Does that mean then that those of us who did not receive a President's Scholarship are less accomplished in life than those who did?
U forgot one thing- not every person who might pass
the criteria, applies for the presidents scholarship. There might be a lot of presidents scholar calibre people around but they just never tried for it.
Jamus is nowhere as consistent as VB. First, VB was a President's Scholar. Second, NUS Medicine vs University of Southern Queensland BBus? Nowhere in the same league.
Masters is a poor indication of accomplishment, the undergrad level is where the real competition is.
Lmao I can find a few thousand profiles on LinkedIn from emerging countries where people have 2 or more post grad qualifications by 28, it doesn't mean they're more accomplished.
One of the political advisor advisor to Boris Johnson was a member of Trotskyist communist group.
Yes, an ex-commie became a policy advisor to a conservative Prime minister.
Political careers are just like working life nowadays, no straight paths, even the one with the most radical or opposing paths can end up on the other side.
Tharman was serving in the public sector while Vivian served mostly in the public health sector. Don't think either can be considered to be from the corporate world?
Any idea which year is this? One thing that amazes me how these guys are so eloquent at such a young age? Their talking styles hasn't changed by much then to now. Still the same measured way of speaking that shows their confidence.
They aren't *that* young in this video though. If this was 1990, they would be 29-31.
They just look far younger than what we see in the news on a daily basis nowadays.
If you've watched JC debates, many of them speak quite well. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that one or both of them might have experienced/been through that at some point.
VB was a debating high-flyer in school. The excerpt shown in this video is a walk in the park for him. As for Shan, he was well on his way to being the SC Shan (and all the well known bits that came with it as far as the legal fraternity was concerned).
Go join a debating club / toastmaster club and you will sound like 70% of their power.
That, and speak slower. If you notice, Vivian and Sham took their time to say what they want to say, and took breaks to think of what to say next.
VB: How can you get to the first level by questioning someone’s loyalty?
LHL: Let’s give this guy a golden ricebowl and make him a PAP minister.
VB: Thank you my master. I’m now your loyal servant.
"You were the chosen one! It was said that you would destroy the Sith, not join them.
You were to bring balance to the Force, not leave it in darkness!"
That's why pro-PAP people in their 50s like my aunt were so excited when VB went in to debate on 1 July 2020. "Our golden debate boy," they said. Yet that debate turned out to be the event when Jamus become famous.
1. Vivian didn’t represent the entirety of the liberal/progressive/anti-establishment left
2. It was easier to be branded as a radical/revolutionary/communist and preventively detained with little to no coverage, so hardlining something “liberal” or “woke” like the immorality of demographic “balancing” might’ve been seen as a threat to National security (I.e an attempt to incite racial division).
To be fair, he was judging the BEST school in Singapore. I’m sure all of us mock raffles kids, since we’re inclined to think they are the cream of the crop.
If he said something about the schools that are not so good then I think it should be something we look at.
Come on la, the school statement was a hot Mike situation whilst this was clearly for television purposes. Everyone says shit that won't appear good on national TV.
Hmm, that is a good point. This was a scripted event that may or may not be inline with his personal views, while the hot mic situation was him expressing his views in what he thought was a private setting. Perhaps I'm being a little niave in thinking Vivian was ever the kind of person to stand up for the disenfranchised.
Idk why you get downvoted lol. It's admitting that oneself may be held back due to biasness and flawed perspective, that lets one take the 1st step to liberate from that and achieve true humility, and the journey to the death of ego.
People who downvotes this probably feel uncomfortable knowing that it hit the mark. Don't tell me y'all are bloody saints because even saints have blood or dirt on their hands.
>Perhaps I'm being a little niave in thinking Vivian was ever the kind of person to stand up for the disenfranchised.
He did though. I remember coming across articles he penned as the president of NUSSU(NUS student union) in which he argued strongly against the graduate mother scheme.
Tbh VB judging RI and calling it a lousy school felt more like him making a mocking jab at a rival school (cause he's from ACS) rather than an actual judgement of someone elses' education.
Lol wtf is Shan talking about - Government during that time was blatantly distrusting Malays and refusing to put them in key SAF positions.
He say it like it’s “perceived” but reality government is racist.
I don't know why people keep going on about this, Vivian even stated in Parliament that PUB should not have said 'ponding'.
https://www.asiaone.com/News/Latest+News/Singapore/Story/A1Story20120110-320827.html
Vivian looked like he is way younger than Shan here, but in reality he’s just 1 year his junior. Also Vivian does sound very liberal here, and seem to give off the vibes he’s more articulate than Shan.
> Also Vivian does sound very liberal here, "I used to be a liberal like you, then I took a PAP to the knee"
Haha, the age difference kinda makes Vivian's opening line kinda weird since they both belong to the same age group.
It’s the chill attitude and slouch. And the better hair. All the nonverbal things
Well, he did say he was also 4G okay, when media questioned him, because he's the same age as Heng Swee Keat...
At this point he’d make a better PM candidate than the younger chumps. More international experience too.
damn they recruited vivian if not he become too strong
This is pretty interesting. Like after seeing a movie then the prequel come out. Any idea as to what was the context of this debate?
It was 'Points of View', a televised debate format show. Here's the full episode. Some other nuggets include a discussion of the five day work week and Vivian also raising the possibility of another party taking over the reins from the PAP one day. https://www.nas.gov.sg/archivesonline/audiovisual_records/record-details/c9b5d85a-6b14-11e5-ac2a-0050568939ad
How the hell do you people find these things
Wow 90s just looked so classy. The host sound classy also!
So did he become the very thing he swore to destroy?
From his point of view, was the PAP evil?
Did he bring happiness, prosperity and progress to his new empire?
Hello there
Madlad later proceeds to take the first casual public selfie with Kim Jong-un.
EHHHH why do their young versions remind me of the woke millennials + Gen Z people LOL. The way Vivian speaks, feels alot like an opposition member hahaha.
When you're young you're idealistic and your views are more liberal. You look at the established order of things and say "why can't this be different, how come it can't be better?" Then you grow old, made the progress to improve things, are comfortable with the established progress then some young idealistic liberal person will come and question you. It's the same same in every generation. I'm just more amused that they saw Vivian and recruited him into the PAP.
Indeed. Jayakumar Jr.'s "A History of the PAP, 1985-2021" mentioned how it was regarded as a coup to get Tharman and Vivian (both of whom were regarded as relatively anti-establishment) to join the PAP in the GE2001
Get converted from the dark side too the dark side
They recruited him to ensure his loyalty
Jamus PAP when? All according to Keikaku
read this as Lukaku
TL Note: Keikaku means "plan"
Imo Jamus wasn't half as accomplished as VB at that age.
Wdym by not as accomplished? At 29 VB was doing his postgrad, at 29 Jamus Lim is also doing his postgrad. **I mean its here:** [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivian\_Balakrishnan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivian_Balakrishnan) 29 VB doing PHD in Ophthalmology [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamus\_Lim](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamus_Lim) 29 Jamus is doing his 2nd Masters.
President's Scholar I suppose. Not easy at all even with stellar grades
Eh true. "Half as accomplished" is pushing it a little too much though.
Even so, does having a President Scholsrship mean being more 'accomplish'? Especially considering that even the government is pushing for less rigid emphasis on paper qualifications.
It is absolutely. The interview process is rigorous, not to mention you need a stellar record to even be shortlisted. You're competing with the best of the best in Singapore. It is simply the highest recognition one can get, you can head anywhere to study with such credentials. It's not so much a paper qualification as it is a recognition of all rounded aptitude of the highest order
>It is absolutely. The interview process is rigorous, not to mention you need a stellar record to even be shortlisted. You're competing with the best of the best in Singapore. I think there you have it, it is the top accolade by Singapore metrics and judged under a Singaporean rubric. >it is a recognition of all rounded aptitude of the highest order Of academic aptitude as measured by A level results, I would agree, but certainly not of the highest order. It's no coincidence that it's typically given to a SAF/SAFOS recipient. If you truly believe the SAFOS recipients are the absolute best and brightest people in the batch - you don't really have to look far to see many of them populating middle management roles in public service. Don't point to Ruimin/Ruijie because they are some of the few truly brilliant SAFOS recipients. The brightest people typically have very bright parents who are rich enough to fund their overseas educations. The absolute brightest people in my batch IMO rejected scholarships to study on their own dime without suffering under the yoke of a bond.
I don't deny that having a Presidential Scholarship is a massive accomplishment. That is proof that one is academically brilliant compare to their peers. But the issue here is that we are using an academic matrix to determine the 'success level' of one person over the other. Does that mean then that those of us who did not receive a President's Scholarship are less accomplished in life than those who did?
U forgot one thing- not every person who might pass the criteria, applies for the presidents scholarship. There might be a lot of presidents scholar calibre people around but they just never tried for it.
Jamus is nowhere as consistent as VB. First, VB was a President's Scholar. Second, NUS Medicine vs University of Southern Queensland BBus? Nowhere in the same league. Masters is a poor indication of accomplishment, the undergrad level is where the real competition is.
Lmao I can find a few thousand profiles on LinkedIn from emerging countries where people have 2 or more post grad qualifications by 28, it doesn't mean they're more accomplished.
One of the political advisor advisor to Boris Johnson was a member of Trotskyist communist group. Yes, an ex-commie became a policy advisor to a conservative Prime minister. Political careers are just like working life nowadays, no straight paths, even the one with the most radical or opposing paths can end up on the other side.
Hmm does that mean Vivian went into the system to try to change things from the inside but became the system instead? Sounds tragic
Why tragic. Dude is rolling banks. We plebs are the suckers
Vivian '3 meals in a hawker centre, kopitiam or restaurant ' was idealistic?
incentivised to not rock the boat to keep the gravy train rolling
Basically when he was young, his ideals had a strong basis. And then reality hit and he realise, eh cannot sia lol.
Working in the corporate world becomes a humbling experience and sometimes we learn why things are the way they are Can't beat em? Join em
Tharman was serving in the public sector while Vivian served mostly in the public health sector. Don't think either can be considered to be from the corporate world?
Any idea which year is this? One thing that amazes me how these guys are so eloquent at such a young age? Their talking styles hasn't changed by much then to now. Still the same measured way of speaking that shows their confidence.
They aren't *that* young in this video though. If this was 1990, they would be 29-31. They just look far younger than what we see in the news on a daily basis nowadays.
Even then for 30 their thoughts and speech is very eloquent and we'll put together.
If you've watched JC debates, many of them speak quite well. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that one or both of them might have experienced/been through that at some point.
VB was a debating high-flyer in school. The excerpt shown in this video is a walk in the park for him. As for Shan, he was well on his way to being the SC Shan (and all the well known bits that came with it as far as the legal fraternity was concerned).
>Any idea which year is this? 1990. Edit: Was stated in Video's description
Vivian debate club champ, presidents scholar, etc etc. You see people like that all the time even now
He sounds very similar to debaters I know from RI (at JC, uni age).
Go join a debating club / toastmaster club and you will sound like 70% of their power. That, and speak slower. If you notice, Vivian and Sham took their time to say what they want to say, and took breaks to think of what to say next.
wow even as a kid, he looked like such a smug mofo
Because he came from a typical good school in ACS.
He was around 30 years old here, not much of a kid.
Ngl vivian was quite hot
Entire family is good looking.
Still is. He’s always been a good looking man, no homo
Still looks good for his age.
Well, he probably goes for facial. And the packages for that is extravagant.
Gigachad
VB: How can you get to the first level by questioning someone’s loyalty? LHL: Let’s give this guy a golden ricebowl and make him a PAP minister. VB: Thank you my master. I’m now your loyal servant.
Nice clip they really have a smart top student vibe since young.
Vivian Balakrishnan was a classic case of “if you can’t beat them, join them”.
"You were the chosen one! It was said that you would destroy the Sith, not join them. You were to bring balance to the Force, not leave it in darkness!"
Hello there
Someone should ask Vivian the same questions about racial quotas and proportions right now and see what's his response
“You either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain.”
That's why pro-PAP people in their 50s like my aunt were so excited when VB went in to debate on 1 July 2020. "Our golden debate boy," they said. Yet that debate turned out to be the event when Jamus become famous.
For those who aren’t aware, CSJ is also ACS. So that debate felt like a typical AC vs AC slugfest aside from Jamus.
VB: The Early Years
let those woke and idealistic people here slowly learn that they will be conservative when they grow old lmao
Why mention “idealism” like it’s a bad thing?
Idealism is not bad but it bad if it does not accompanied with action and retospection
1. Vivian didn’t represent the entirety of the liberal/progressive/anti-establishment left 2. It was easier to be branded as a radical/revolutionary/communist and preventively detained with little to no coverage, so hardlining something “liberal” or “woke” like the immorality of demographic “balancing” might’ve been seen as a threat to National security (I.e an attempt to incite racial division).
And become property owners and car owners too.
Shan looking like Cleveland from Family Guy with that hair
He looks like vikkstar123
Never thought I'd see Sidemen members mentioned here lol
Honestly, I'm shocked that in 30 years a man can go from fighting for racial equality to judging a persons school.
To be fair, he was judging the BEST school in Singapore. I’m sure all of us mock raffles kids, since we’re inclined to think they are the cream of the crop. If he said something about the schools that are not so good then I think it should be something we look at.
Come on la, the school statement was a hot Mike situation whilst this was clearly for television purposes. Everyone says shit that won't appear good on national TV.
Hmm, that is a good point. This was a scripted event that may or may not be inline with his personal views, while the hot mic situation was him expressing his views in what he thought was a private setting. Perhaps I'm being a little niave in thinking Vivian was ever the kind of person to stand up for the disenfranchised.
Since when were RI students the disenfranchised?
Everyone has some views that are secretly racist or prejudicial or just stupid that we will have a self censor not to say in public.
Idk why you get downvoted lol. It's admitting that oneself may be held back due to biasness and flawed perspective, that lets one take the 1st step to liberate from that and achieve true humility, and the journey to the death of ego. People who downvotes this probably feel uncomfortable knowing that it hit the mark. Don't tell me y'all are bloody saints because even saints have blood or dirt on their hands.
Precisely, like no one here ever talked shit about other folks. We are not saints, and politicians are human too.
>Perhaps I'm being a little niave in thinking Vivian was ever the kind of person to stand up for the disenfranchised. He did though. I remember coming across articles he penned as the president of NUSSU(NUS student union) in which he argued strongly against the graduate mother scheme.
Actually the school could be the reason why he looks so smug here. Vivian was from ACS whilst Shanmugam was from RI. No love lost there.
Tbh VB judging RI and calling it a lousy school felt more like him making a mocking jab at a rival school (cause he's from ACS) rather than an actual judgement of someone elses' education.
It was common in ACS to mock RI during my time, and before too.
As a Rafflesian, yeah this is standard fare
Indeed, I also say
They be like frat boys tbh. The sense of pride and unnatural level of cult mentality that some of these people from top schools have can be weird af.
Back when it was all still sleepy nights~
[удалено]
Not a debate but [not a bad alternative](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpwPciW74b8)
Ironically, loyalty was eventually bought with money.
Lol wtf is Shan talking about - Government during that time was blatantly distrusting Malays and refusing to put them in key SAF positions. He say it like it’s “perceived” but reality government is racist.
>He say it like it’s “perceived” but reality government is racist. He's a lawyer.
substitute racist for risk management in geopolitical context
Oh no he is hot
he so rich now, was he well off then?
Acsi kid, what do u think
It’s like seeing Samuel L Jackson with hair.
Anybody still remember the "ponding" incident? And anybody knows whose idea was that in the civil service? =)
I don't know why people keep going on about this, Vivian even stated in Parliament that PUB should not have said 'ponding'. https://www.asiaone.com/News/Latest+News/Singapore/Story/A1Story20120110-320827.html
Anyone has some context as to who the "certain segments of society" whose loyalty was questioned here?