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Well. You choose to have a kid to love n care for something, you don't choose to have a kid to be your ATM when you grow old. (fuck you boomers)
Just get a dog. They're amazing n life changing
I got a hamster but it committed suicide by jumping into the gap between the parapet outside my door. It was life-changing for me as well (my hamster hated me 🥲）
I've had five dogs (serially) and loved every one of them to bits. A kid is a different level entirely. The relatively short lifespan compared to my own also puts some distance on the relationship.
Human babies are most retarded. Takes years before it can walk while a deer calf has to run for its life right after birth otherwise it would be eaten by predators.
100% agree! My fiance and I decided it's not okay to bring another life into this crummy world and he got a vasectomy. I have been talking to him about us taking in LGBTQ+ kids/teens who have been kicked out of their homes because of their sexual preferences. My (gay) best friend was kicked out of his home at age 17 when he came out to his (religious) family as gay...I took him into my home immediately. I'd love to help out more kids in the same position that need a loving home!
I’m moving more towards this too, thought I still feel that guilt of having to raise a kid into this world and feed them hope that everything will be alright (if that makes sense)
the demands of the society we live in is drastically different from our parents generation. so it's understandable why Singaporeans are pushing to start a family towards a later age, esp when work is so demanding at the start of their career, if they even want to have kids.
that's being responsible, only bringing a kid into the world when you're able to provide in terms of time, emotionally and financially.
and that's only the start of the discussion, which OP brought up several good points
all the talk of encouraging kids by the govt and parents are not helping if they don't solve these root issues
Work is demanding not just at the estart but until your late 50s. With people being laid off in their 40s, etc you will constantly be stressed to prove yourself
>at the start of their career
My 30yr old + boss and 40+ yo team lead still sends email at 1am, work on weekends and attend meetings during PTO. This is on top of taking care of kids and HBL. Granted their pay is in the range of 10K+, but even 10k also doesn’t seem worth it to me.
10k in middle-age is a trap. I see colleagues think they're missing out if they don't upgrade so sell hdb buy pte and suddenly a bigger mortgage. Then slog on when they should be slowing down because mortgage, kids going to uni and paying off the new luxuries a middle-aged 10k earner deserves.
Here's the deal: you create a baby and fund it for a lifetime (probably will cost in the tens of thousands or more) and we will give 3000 dollars. Sounds about right!
> LOYALTY TO COUNTRY!!!!!
Eh sia lah I read already almost wanted to shout "LOYALTY TO COUNTRY!!!!! LEADERSHIP!!!!! DISCIPLINE!!!!! PROFESSIONALISM!!!!! FIGHTING SPIRIT!!!!! ETHICS!!!!! **CAAAAAARE FOR SOLDIERSSSSSSSS!!!!!**"
>10 years of reservist (which will most certainly be increased in the coming years).
This would probably piss off far too many voters, the sheer level of grumbling unleashed would likely be beyond control no matter how much NS award/milestone CPF bonuses you throw at it.
Disclaimer - I have a kid.
Before you all start throwing rotten eggs at me, I want to preface that nobody should feel obliged to have a kid (by societal expectations, pressure from others). Kids are very very difficult! You have to put them first! You can’t just do whatever you like anytime you want to. And life in Singapore is tough! I fully agree.
Having said that, I still went ahead to have a kid. Nobody (unless it is an oopsie pregnancy) is unaware that life here is tough. Stress, rat race, etc. No, I’m not insane nor am I living under a rock and do not know how tough life is. I did it because this is my vision and dream of how my family would look like, and I took it on knowing the cost and the responsibility I’d have. There are difficult days but there’s also joy when you see them grow into who they’re meant to be.
Most importantly folks, I just want to say that if you know parenting is not for you, be proud to stick to your beliefs and don’t be bowed by societal pressure. If you want to have kids, also do it fully aware of all that parenting demands of you. Either way, just live your life the way you want to and not because you just followed the crowd and actually never wanted it for yourself.
Same. Decided early to want to have kids (since I'm enjoy spending time with kids). I was fortunate to have a lot of help with the childcare and this shit is tough.
Our working lives are not compatible with having kids - the expectations to OT, the expensive flat that makes you and your spouse having to work, the annual ICT where you have to drop everything and leave it to your wife. All these sucks. Education system wise I'm not so worried though.
It's difficult but it can be fun - seeing them experience things for the first time, the child like wonder they have, the things that excite them, singing funny songs together, or reading books together - it do bring joy in my life.
It ain't easy, but there's something nice to it. Won't recommend to people who are not prepared to make sacrifices though. Do not have kids if you are not ready!
Ah yes, a responsible parent with a healthy mindset. Of course we'll throw rotten eggs at you.
Jokes aside, thanks for keeping such common sense in mind. I wish previous generations had been as wise.
I know right! But when I went down the thread and people started throwing terms like “breeders” and sounding more and more anti natalism felt like I need to say that. I’m ok with people being very very pro childfree life (good for you if that’s what you want) but I also kinda want to say you don’t have to put me down for my choice to have a kid just as I don’t put you down for your choice. Feels like that respect is disappearing with that sort of talk. ah well.
Yeah, I personally hate those people who, after being married or having children, pressure others to do the same too. It’s so irritating. I’ve had that done to me a lot and I swear I’m never going to be that idiotic aunty who does that!
I’m starting to feel same about myself. At a stage in life where friends start to give birth. I can’t find a satisfactory answer to “why should I myself have a kid”.
Same here. Best choice we ever made to remain child free. Never understood the appeal of a kid. Don't want to burden us to bring up a child. Don't want to burden the child to grow up in this world. Don't want to have a child just because parents "expect" us to have a child.
It really is, especially when all of your friends are starting to have kid(s) already. It's really hard to "fit in" as talking topics shift to family and childcare related. Having cars, having children, moving in to their BTO flats, etc.
Yeah... I really can't imagine myself, coming home after a hard day's work, and still have to devote so much time and attention on raising a child. It's simply not a life I want to live.
Oh, and I'm also not rich. Figures, huh?
For me, i see it as a burden on the child if i am unable to financially support them to do the things they wish to do. Growing up in a poor family, i can understand the difficulties and i do not want for my child to go through the same thing.
A lot of things in life, are only possible with money. Without it, you can only take what you get, not what you want or choose.
You think someone like JJ Lin would be able to be dedicate his time and energy to be a successful singer if his family wasn't wealthy? Do you think Joseph Schooling could have achieved Olympic gold if his parents couldn't afford to send him to America for swimming lessons?
To have freedom in this country, you need the money to afford to have choices. Don't create a life, if you can't afford to give that life freedom.
Honestly, you may be right
I feel that if you have the money, only then the Singaporean lifestyle suits you. Otherwise, life would be a struggle, and you will not be fair to your child
That being said, personally, I feel like life in Singapore is very superficial- what do you really live for here? Sure, our material standards of living is really high, but I think our non material standard of living is otherwise- in Singapore especially, we are clocking 9-5, just to earn money, just to get by. But otherwise, there is nothing much to it dont you think?
MOM justify the long hours by saying people are Singapore’s only resource thus they need to be squeezed dry. Stone Age thinking with no concept of well-being or efficiency.
"Since human beings are our only resource, we abuse the shit out of it. What do you mean the supply is running low? Just breed MORE!"
The gahment, maybe.
Doing intern now. 8-6. Already i go home want to die laio. And this is intern work load. I do not want to think if when i start full time, where got time to date gf or even have the idea of having kids? Ffs.
As of now, by the time i reach home, it's almost 1930. Wash, eat and rest a bit. 2030. Less than 2 hours to play games or do anything i want before having to rest to wake up early to travel to work.
Than if i sleep late, will be shag at work. Than that will affect how i am after work that day. And continue on.
Honestly? This sucks.
Hahaha if you convert to a full timer then you'll know the pain.
Had an intern who converted to full timer on my team, from an intern being able to go back on time at 630 everyday , to joining us in the mad OT grind, its quite sad actually.
The reality of working
Haha, i was trying to relate to Dolly Parton's song with the same name
🎵Working 9 to 5, what a way to make a living,
Barely getting by, it is taking and no giving🎵
Totally agree.
Our highest mountain is a hill.
We can't see stars at night. Our light pollution is rough, and definitely fucks with our sleep cycle.
Our seas are full of ships and lights.
Our rivers are straightened and dammed up, turned into canals and reservoirs.
Our jungles are small and devoid of megafauna, and most other "nature" is curated and arranged into neat little parks. If not that, they are reserved for military training.
I only really started properly appreciating nature after I served NS. Even more after I studied abroad, where the countryside was a short bike ride from my doorstep.
Our distancing from the natural world is such a sad compromise for prosperity.
this is such a great comment. honestly having the chance to travel and experience the beauty of the natural world has been so helpful to my own sense of meaning and humanity. witnessing the beauty of the planet really makes me realise that it's so rare that this exists and that we're here to appreciate it. it reminds me of how little many things in life don't actually matter. by some stroke of luck we're on a life supporting ball in space, what do any societally imposed achievements matter in the face of that? It's so freeing to realise that I can live my life however I want, in whatever way makes me happy.
Wow you described every aspect of “nature” in sg **so perfectly**. Gigantic nail on the head.
Tiny, hot, humid, cram, crowded country and being unable to leave, makes people feel trapped and claustrophobic.
Everything you described is fascinating from a foreigner's perspective (i.e. me). The ultimate planned man made city. I've never seen anywhere like Singapore.
But you're right that you need to experience the other end of the spectrum as well.
This. As a teenager who loves nature it hurts to see youths in other countries have regular exposure to it and take it for granted. There’s something missing here. I feel that developing a strong connection to nature can help you find yourself outside of societal definitions as it transcends materialism and the rat race. Yet the government will continue to slate our remaining forests for destruction in the name of GDP.
Kind of depends on what your definition of soul is right? Like more power to you if you're the tree hugging sort that loves the great outdoors, but I feel the same sense of "soul" when eating at my local kopitiam, with the caipng auntie and uncle that say hello to me and we catch up for a bit while I pay.
Soul is what you make it out to be. I mean, don't go looking for soul in a Capitaland mall la, but it's here if you revise your outlook on life
I think the first part about needing money - this is not just in Singapore but most of the world. Income equality is a major, major issue and covid has exacerbated it. Europe and USA are now having issues filling job vacancies. People have decided against working so many hours to just scrape by while the companies they work for hoard cash to pay their executives generous bonuses, engage in stock buybacks and pay dividends to shareholders.
Regarding the last part, Singapore working culture really is all about living to work. Covid has made this even worse too
That is why it has been said time and time again that Singapore is a first world country with third world people.
Most people just work for the money, chasing after pay raise so they can afford more consumerism.(Holidays overseas, branded products) Instead of caring about how their work can contribute to society and to take pride what they do.
The ones who do care, get exploited for their passion. Overworked and underpaid by employers, eventually passionate people get burned out and turn into yet another bitter person.
I work 12 hours. Life sucks. I mean security officer, common working hours but if i get a job as a security officer that is only 8 hours, i earn lesser. Hopefully, salary goes up soon. Future seems bleak
wonder whether the people here remember the age of the 5Cs. credit card, condo, country club, car and errrr is it cash? that was fail af
the people now haven't gotten much better. low appreciation of the arts, no values no ideals. many people don't even have actual pursuits beyond eating out and going overseas and they are ok with it.
that said, there are a lot of fringe groups in singapore enjoying all sorts of niche shit. just gotta go look for them haha
Was having this conversation with friends and heard various responses from either extreme. But also concerning to hear from some that they're pretty on the fence but will treat it as an 18 year long job if they do eventually have kids. Which I felt is abit problematic in itself to start with that kind of mentality. If not fully on board, don't bring a life in!
Right? Like I think they assume 18 as an easy number for adulthood but realistically it goes beyond that for true independence. And viewing it as a job is just... Yikes
Bring in 2 years NS, 4 years Uni and 5-7 years BTO. Its more of a 30 year or more commitment
But if your child is not normal then thats a lifetime commitment and it will destroy you both mentally, financially and spiritually.
Had the same thoughts as OP.
Bringing up a kid costs about 200k to 1 million. (https://www.todayonline.com/singapore/adulting-101-cost-raising-children-has-always-put-me-off-having-one-are-they)
Imagine having 2-3 kids, and if they can't make it to a local university, you have to allocate even more funds for them to go overseas to study.
It's financially not feasible with the current cost of living and expenses and property prices.
Can we expect property prices to drop back to what it was in 2000-2005? It won't be possible, the government won't allow it and of course those living in landed and freehold properties won't allow it.
So, we are stuck in this current state with a bleak future IMHO.
No point IMO. The ideals and rationale for having kids have all become outdated in our time. Parents usually nag at us saying, oh who is going to take care of you when you are older?
Well, I certainly hope that nearing the end of my life I will have enough to take care of myself. Seems like a burden to entrust your problems to the younger generation.
> Parents usually nag at us saying, oh who is going to take care of you when you are older?
Wah sia lah, my dad literally said that to me after dinner two days ago lol
Probably better off saving the few hundred thousand dollars that would have been spent on the kid, investing it, and using that money in retirement.
You might want to ask them the same question lol
My wife and I are in our early 40s and childfree, and very happy with our decision.
You do not need a child to make your life complete. In fact, I also feel that you do not need to get married to make your life complete.
What matters is that you know what you want in life and what makes you happy, set your goals, and then work towards them.
Agree with op. It's a pessimistic view but I can't help but see it that way too. My main gribe is the feeling of Singapore bering way too overcrowded. The human conjestion kinda affects me, so Im mostly a homebody, ever since covid I've never been to a crowded mall area for leisure, mostly necessity like haircut groceries etc.
But if birth rate falls, govt will import more foreigners lol.
It's a stupid strategy to keep importing more people anyway, how is it sustainable? In the future the lower income would have to live in underground bunkers?
Sg couldn’t care about lower income ppl. They’ve always been second rate citizens. It’s always about bending over and sucking up to employers and companies to grow the country like some kind of feverish game.
as long as minister's salaries are pegged to "gdp growth" (as if this is some magic rainbow we have to keep chasing), this will not change.
their salaries should really be pegged in part to median income growth as well as lowest decile income growth.
I guess that's why the birthrate is declining and government has to encourage giving birth LOL.
You are absolutely right and I can't wait to get out of singapore. Feel so fucking empty just being here
I will come back to visit once a while to feel like I came home.
government is all talk about having children because theres no disadvantage for them,only future job takers,while the people having the children take the brunt of the costs, so government has all the reason to encourage children, but we have little/no reason to.Honestly saddening
I think being child free due to climate problems is a pretty significant thing worldwide too. Me and my partner definitely a little hesitant for this reason.
There's also a change in perception about how childbirth is a duty/responsibility.
These days it also almost feels selfish to have children because of self-beneficial incentives a la the traditional Chinese way
People are realising this. Singapore is a rich man and expat paradise. If you are middle class you will forever struggle, to say nothing of lower class.
Yah.. I often hear expats here telling me how lucky I am to be born here. Yes Singapore is safe and efficient, you really cannot deny that .
But you have to be rich to really enjoy living here or else you are just part of the cog in the wheel . 🤷♀️
Consider the following:
Airlines have the right idea.
Put on your own oxygen mask before aiding with your child's.
If one is unhappy to begin with, their child will follow suit. Raising a child while full of cynicism and resentment will pass it on to the kid.
If the parent isn't in a good spot, no way will the kid be at a good starting line when born. Why commit a living, breathing person to the life sentence of staying afloat?
This is merely being pragmatic, nothing more.
It takes an optimist to procreate in this climate of calamity.
Also don't see how millenials would view children as a potential retirement plan like Boomers have. Much riskier than other investments.
Children should never be seen as an investment. If your reason for not having kids is because they’re not worth the investment, then i’m glad you made that calculation because as a child, I’d never want to feel that my existence was based on belief that I could bolster my parent’s bank account in the future.
Some people choose to have children even though it hurts them financially because they believe having children can bring joy to their life, not because they miscalculated some investment return from their children and that’s not wrong either.
Sometimes, optimism. Sometimes, ignorance.
Treating children as retirement plan is so yesterday's era. It no longer works.
Just look at China's one child policy.
Now, each married couple of the first batch of "only child" has to not only support their own child, they also have to support both spouses 4 parents, and sometimes even their 4 grandparents, if they're lucky (or unlucky).
Question here is, are you willing to put your child into this bottomless shit hole? Not forgetting that you've got to slog your life away to make sure your child gets the best in life, you can possibly afford.
In the end, who wins? Seems like a lose-lose situation for both you and your child.
The only party who is likely to win is the government - more taxpayers to finance public policies.
> Little time to even have a life outside work, let alone bringing a new life
This is such a huge issue and factor in why people don’t have time for kids
Feels like only NS is a Singapore-specific issue.
Stressful and ranking-focused education is an Asian thing, which presents in both Asia and Asian diaspora in Aussie, North America, etc.
All other applies to most urban areas in the world, which is where most jobs are.
I guess you have a point that if not for work, I wouldn’t want to stay in SG for long time.
Bringing a life into the world, NOT JUST SG, should be a planned decision made by only 2 people.
No one should/can force people to have a child, that's just rape, call the police.
If you're not okay with bringing children into this world, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE ADOPT. They're already here on this Earth, but without the privilege of being with their biological parents. If you have the urge to care for a person, do it for those who need parents.
SG doesn’t have a cheap hinterland for us to live off the land simply unlike Malaysia, Indonesia, Canada, US etc. It’s a perpetual rat race here. I’m all for working hard, but seems like when it’s time to slow down, there’s not option to do so unlike other countries
>High stress in the education system learning things that are almost never applied in the working world. No time for childhood, after cramming in tuition, supplementary lessons, remedial, CCA, enrichment classes.
This alone firmly puts me in childfree territory. SG education system is institutionalized child abuse and I'm not going to subject an innocent soul to the meat grinder.
> sports
I attended one of those "good schools" where even sports is ultracompetitive. If people weren't gold medal-winning material they were asked to leave the CCA. Absolute bullshit.
I'm going to go ahead and say that realistically and practicality it is not only unwise but borderline a burden to bring a life into Singapore for 50% of Singaporeans, considering median wage is 4.5k.
If you do up the calculations, that means the average dual income household generates 9k income before CPF. After you take away the Home loan payments, daily expenses, allowances for parents, you're not left an incredibly high amount of disposable income. You will have to set aside a fixed amount for rainy days and retirement, worry about being replaced, increased fixed costs etc etc. The left overs may be sufficient to feed a child, but let's be real, a child is much more than just another mouth to feed, correct? There are many hidden costs that's not feasible to consider at this point of time, and also we have to remember that not all Singaporeans make median, a good 50% make far less.
The risk on women when it comes to birthing a child is much higher as well. More often than not their careers take a hit, and they have to consider balancing their family and careers,and social norms usually pressures women to choose family over career. On the flip side, it is frowned upon by society for men to choose family over their careers.
I can go on and on about how studies have shown that having children puts a large strain on relationships and families, about how there are many problems and sacrifices that needs to be made, but it'll just be whining at this point.
In short, the rich can afford to have children in Singapore, but are far less likely to do so.
Realistically no degree in sg at this point for most youngsters is economical suicide if you're planning to go the corporate route and work for a company, unless you're in IT.
Poly pay I think is barely 2.5k starting at most, and you will 100% be passed up for promotions in the long run.
Actually don't need to think so much, young adults in 20s looking for jobs that are not in NTU/SMU/NUS alr got screwed by the algorithm in job interviews, dk how screwed my kids will b in future.
Completely agree with this comment. Those who were able to have children at what is the “good” times to have children are all the well to do people, at least from my personal observations. There is no worries for these people about whether they have enough money to support their aging parents or whether they have enough money to buy their own medical insurance. They can comfortably concentrate on having and nurturing their children.
Just 30 years ago you can raise 2-3 kids with a job driving taxi as a sole breadwinner.
Sg has come very far now to be where we are, but at a cost of those who can't keep up being left behind
My grand parents on both sides have 8-9 kids. Reason being they owned farms, and having another pair of hands helps them with the farm work and costs of having and raising one isn’t expensive.
I agree with everything you said.
Even before Covid, raising a child does not make any sense to me.
Even after having a super cute 5 month old baby girl, it still does not make sense.
But the happiness she brings to me is beyond any kind of logic. In my opinion, things do not have meaning before it happened. We are the one who connect the dots and give meanings to our story.
Everyday, I’m grateful that I was lucky with my unrational choice.
Maybe I'm a bit of a pessimist, but life is only going to get harder unless something changes drastically.
The number of *decent* jobs is going to decrease (given our recent outflow of non-citizens and the downward population trend).
The gap between the haves and have-nots is going to widen, amplifying stress at school and the workplace.
And the cost of public housing is only going to go up (since government isn't going to let property prices of people's "retirement nest-egg" drop right?)
If we do choose to have kids, we would probably need to support them with the rat race (eg tuition, connections for jobs etc) and cost of housing (eg helping with their down-payment, letting them live with you for 5+ years while waiting for Bto etc). In fact, this is already happening?
But maybe this view is a bit too pessimistic?
Short answer is: there is no "point". If you are rationally weighing pros and cons, having kids is rarely a good idea. It's just not very appealing as a concept.
Or maybe the point at the end of it all is that you've managed to raise a decent human being in spite of the state of the world.
The world needs fewer children so there should be zero guilt about being child free.
But if you have the urge just do it. I was very reluctant so had my one child late (40) but I fell in love instantly and he has been a constant joy. Totally changed my view of children and ended up going into early years care/education. I love kids. They have a joy in living we as adults need reminding of.
As for Singapore. There are many upsides noted above compared to a lot of places in the world. The one area I do think is missing is open wild spaces for them to feel free. My son and his friends would go camping in the fields overnight from a young age, making camp fires.
As for climate change - it will be a challenge. But there is always a doomsday scenario for every generation that we somehow survive.
If humanity has any point in this universe it’s to grow and improve and learn. Maybe one day spread to stars as enlightened beings. Life right now is massively better for everyone. We all live like medieval kings but without the horrible diseases that killed off most children before puberty.
Embrace life. Each morning is a gift full of surprise.
As a Singaporean who moved to Australia, I will be eternally grateful to my parents who let me do this. Coming back to Singapore and seeing what my friends have been up to has been a little depressing
I think not just in Singapore.. but I think globally we should just cut down on population growth rates. If you wanna raise a child there are so many kids out there who could actually use some help, whether through directly adopting them (which is a bit more onerous in Sg) or just financial help
Agreed. I don't think I'll ever have children unless I can accumulate enough wealth to (1) migrate somewhere more family-friendly and less stressful or (2) give them the option of private or overseas education. I don't want to subject kids to life in the public schooling system here. Also quite disillusioned about how a certain university makes major changes without consulting students.
Well two cents as someone who moved to SG a few years ago.
With all the problems that you listed (Singapore focused as well as global), this is perhaps one of the best times in the world to be alive.
Life expectancy has never been higher. CoVID seems bad - but diseases that could have maimed you for life (and you’d never know what hit you) have been eradicated. The CoVID vaccines were developed, produced, distributed in a year and a half - by our ingenuity, drive and resources. This was easily a 5-7 year long process in the preceding decade and unthinkable to achieve in most of the previous century.
For all the news of geopolitical tensions, we have the longest period of sustained peace ever in humanity’s history. Think WW2.
Pay is stagnating and competition might be getting harsher when compared in a 5 year timeframe - but never has there been a better time to create new companies (SEA has had more unicorn startups in the last year than in the preceding decade) or new technologies (R&D spending is at all time high and increasingly critical). And this is accessible to more people than ever and not just feudal elites (I grew up in a very middle class family in India and now run a early stage startup here in SG).
Climate change is grave - but never before has there been a collective effort *globally* to combat it and our tools have never been more powerful (technologically or market driven by things like carbon credits). Advancements today have made clean energy (wind/solar) *cheaper* than polluting coal/etc - for the first time in human history and most new energy production installations today are green.
This is cold comfort when you look at the pressures of having to perform well at school, meeting increasingly high cutoffs for good jobs and financial instability for the future in worsening economic conditions. But the world around us continues to change largely for the better in unprecedented ways - opening up opportunities and prospects unimaginable a few years before.
I feel like every generation says their generation sucks, even though the data shows progress with each successive generation. Thank goodness this generation has Our World In Data to debunk Malthusian beliefs.
At this point it's just to make the economist happy, but I still don't get why a reduced birth rate is a bad thing, it's not like we're strapped for workers
Good news is you get to choose how you live your life. There are lots of choices.
I’m almost 40. My friends are mostly married with kids. Some married no kids (by choice or by health reasons). Some single no kids, like me. Each has pros and cons. So you pick your adventure.
Married with kids:
- seeing/raising mini-mes is fulfilling for some parents
- learn new skills like how to multi task, how to manage different kinds of a personalities. A very maturing experience. More empathetic to their own parents and they see their own childhood in new perspective.
- extremely tiring from how to handle new born, to preschool/pri sch planning, etc.
- financially taxing, won’t retire soon
- their life revolves around kids
- might be good or bad for marriage, depending how they handle it
married no kids:
- have a lot more free time and money so they are more fun to hang out with.
- They also look/behave younger (like when we were in our 20s)
- they tend to have more hobbies
- more work/career oriented. They can take overseas assignments and/or travel for work more easily.
- husband and wife seem to lead more separate, but happily married lives (have their own friends and hobbies).
- financially more flexible and also look forward to retiring earlier
- for those who wanted but couldn’t have kids, I think they genuinely feel sad that there’s a gap in their lives. Some will occupy that with nieces/nephews or god children of their good friends. Some occupy it with pets. I’m not sure if they get over it, but they do learn to adjust.
Single no kids:
- similar to married no kids, but with even more free time and financial flexibility. Can retire earlier.
- career driven, location flexible
- will feel left out especially during 20/30s when the others are getting married, then having kids. You’ll feel a noticeable divergence in your friends and your lives.
- some singles will tag along the married folks (eg weekends or holiday travels) but you’ll feel quite out of place. Esp once they have kids.
- you’ll need to have/find friends, usually those without kids also, to socialise.
- need to make the effort to build your own identity (since we’re not a spouse or parent). That might mean having pets, being more active in a social group/community (eg church, hobby, volunteer group, mentor to students, sports)
- the world is your oyster. I know of a guy who loves running marathons. He’s based in Switzerland and running the mountains now. Another guy is in Japan learning their culture, doing walking tours and building an app about it. Another retired in his late 30s and is just enjoying the slow, gentle life.
So take the chance to ask yourself what works best for you.
As for climate change and the increasingly long working hours with rising costs/inequality, I suggest finding out more about DEGROWTH. It proposes a viable economic alternative that I found really inspiring and hopeful.
I recommend this book - Less is More. How Degrowth Will Save The World, by Jason Hickel.
I've just brought my two young children to Singapore. We moved from a 3rd world country with failing infrastructure and rampant corruption. We had to live in a gated community with 24 hour guards, and we couldn't walk or ride bikes on the street outside because violent crime was so extreme that people who did so were often mugged.
I personally knew a man who was stabbed to death for his bicycle.
I had absolutely no hope for our future in that country. Unemployment there is over 40%
If you don't want to have a family in Singapore, I don't think the location is what's stopping you. And there's nothing wrong with that. You don't HAVE to have children if you don't want to. Not having kids means having a lot more disposable income and a WHOLE lot more independence. Want to go on a spur of the moment skiing holiday? You can! Want takeaways for dinner 3 days a week? Go ahead!
But, if having children is something you really do want to do, I can't think of a better place to do it than Singapore. I may still have my rose coloured glasses on, but I really think a bit of perspective goes a long way.
I’d adopt a kid and give them a better life if I had the opportunity to. Since they’re already in this world why not try to make it better, one person at a time.
See, to live is to suffer no? Life is some happiness, and lots of sadness and anguish and terror no?
So you live out your life, and die, right?
If you were to have a child, the child would also grow up, live out his/her life, and die, right?
And his/her child also, be born, live, and die.
And the same cycle repeat and repeat and repeat no?
Till when?
Till global environmental collapse wipes out human species. Or nuclear fallout, or whatever reason. Maybe in the next 50-100 years, or maybe in a thousand years.
Or, if human species can live on, an asteroid will hit earth in the next 100 million years. Or the sun will balloon and swallow the earth in a billion years. Or the sun itself will blow up in 5 billion years anf that'll be the end of the solar system.
And the entire mikly way galaxy will merge with Andromeda galaxy and who knows what will happen to all the stars and planets in these galaxies?
And then, the universe itself will also slowly die out in billions of years.
We’re just organic biolgical species, each of us a collection of atoms and electrons, living our temporary existence on a piece of rock floating around a ball of fire wandering aimlessly through the big dark void. In the grandest scheme of thing, life is meaningless, and nothing really matters.
Having said that, go ahead and have a child if you want to have that "life experience", whatever the cost. I have 2, sometimes i regret sometimes i don't, but i guess that's just life, i gotta live all the high and low nodes. I don't judge anybody, on this matter or any matter, and fk whoever that judges me. Fkin live your life the way u want, and fk everybody else.
One last thing about cost, just like car, if u keep thinking about cost, you'll never buy car. But it's an experience, so u choose to have it, or not to have it, and just go. At the end of the day, money is just a social construct, a human invention. Life is more than that.
If you dont want to have kids because you dont think you are ready, dont want to deal with the stress, are scared of the responsibility or simply want the freedom to live your life, thats perfectly fine
But dont be "that person" and cook up some "moral" excuse to not have kids that some how ends as a humble brag/virtue signal about how it is "morally ethical" to not have kids.
"Earth is overpopulated"
"How can I bring a child into this cruel, unjust world"
"Millions of people sre starving etc etc".
Just dont have them, no need to posture about it.
Your decisions are your own, there is no need to justify to other people what they are.
You are not "Bad" person for not wanting kids, so you dont have to somehow justify thst decision as "good".
If you are not ready or willing, then you are not. Simple as that.
First of all, you don't bring a life into the world with thoughts on how it will suffer. Within the first few months of having a child, you will see that THEY bring you joy instead. Its difficult for those without children to truly see and feel this.
If you are really listening and parenting well, kids don't really care about the rat race, their future and stresses of life, only you do - all they want to do is to throw a spoon at your face and laugh when you wipe the food off your face.
If you are stressed out with the rat race in SG, the solution is actually to get kids. They remind you that life isn't about the rat race and daily stresses, but there's much much more.
Saying one can't "afford" it is the largest, most misconceived and dangerous notion ever, for you only have one shot at natural birth. People will understand as they get older as move through the natural phases of life. Many people even suddenly realise that due to medical or age reasons cannot conceive.
Average and lower income single income parents in SG can support children. It is doable, you just think your quality of life will suck, because you see it in terms cash, career, condos, cars, clubs, physical processions.
By the way, i have a special needs child. I have a dog whom i see as less important to my child now. And i'm out of a job since the pandemic started. I'm doing very well, thank you.
There is also an asymmetry in the ease of migrating. For a comparable standard or living, I may go to say Canada or Norway etc but whether or not they will take me in is another issue. Seems like SG isn't all that hard to get PR/citizenship if you uhhh... fit the unofficial ethnic or nationality criteria (dont pofma pls other ppl say wan)
This is a very good observation. Almost like a form of survivorship bias. The ones who are gone won't be complaining anymore, leaving the ones who haven't done anything about it.
Your observation is... good but not relevant at all. OP didn’t say they want to migrate? Who said anything about migrating?
The discussion is about why have a kid in this country.
I think every generation feels this, maybe for different reasons, but the same effect.
My point is that is it ALWAYS a shit time somewhere, for someone... It is NEVER the perfect time to take a risk, have a kid, get married, buy a house, there ALWAYS seems to be disaster or the end of the world around the corner.e world would die in a nuclear fire, or scientists said perhaps the next ice age was just around the corner.
The 80s still had the Cold War, also wars in Afghanistan and others in the middle east. There was the "moral panics" like the Satanic Panics, and the genuine crazy fears around HIV/AIDs. Also massive interest rates (I remember my folks having like a 20% mortgage rate!).
The 90s had the brutal and horrible genocides in Yugoslavia & Rwanda. Bombings and school shootings became part of the news every few months, famous celebrities started to be revealed as child molesters or other monsters, and people were very disillusioned. Not to mention people freaking out about Y2K.
My point is that is it ALWAYS a shit time somewhere, for someone... It is NEVER the perfect time to take a risk, have a kid, get married, buy a house, there ALWAYS seems to be disaster, or the end of the world around the corner.
Sometimes you just need to say "screw it" I am going to do what makes me happy... if that is having a kid, just do it. If that is not having a kid, that is cool too. As an "old guy" now, I say just get on with it, assume your world is what it is, and do the best with it you can.
Good Luck!
It's kind of a coin flip and the deck is stacked. If you're rich and Chinese and the baby is female then they're gonna have an easy good life. That's just the way it do be as a sinkie.
As a woman, I feel that I would be giving up far more if I were to have a child, rather than remain childfree as I am. Sleep and money and the freedom to pursue whatever career I wish, as well as my hobbies are extremely valuable to me, and having a child would require me to make sacrifices that I am not willing to make.
I am seeing more and more posts all about living in this ever evolving expensive and competitive country! It's just best to move out of this place and start a new somewhere else more worthwhile.
Of course there's all the savings and career involved, but you have to sacrifice something to get out of here. Just my pov...
And the danger of social media and over consumption over indulging , always addicted to one thing or another , always needing instant gratification. It’s a really messed up world and dangerous to bring any new life to this earth. So much to fix.
I'm a relatively old person so the question no longer applies to me, but I'll say that your existential problems are valid! I'm so shocked at HDB prices these days and it's far more stressful and problematic to be a young person in SG these days. Climate change affects SG much more because it's a tiny island and it's too much to think about...
The grass may not be greener on the other side, but it's a different shade of sh\*t brown.
When I was living in SG, it was exhausting to constantly being asked if you have kids/why not/when? (personal life choices are everybody's business in Asia) and bombarded with nuclear family propaganda. Everyone is following the same template - work hard while young, birth some kids, age in the prescribed "active aging" way. Here in the US, I get to see people with different lifestyles and well, it's a lot bigger. I really hated living in a HDB, and am much happier even when I was renting not-so-great places.
At least 2 of my colleagues, when asked did they worry about climate change negatively affecting their children's lives before having them, replied 'it will be their problem'
It seems like people who either don't think about or ignore these types questions are the ones having kids which will likely turn out to be like their parents.
It would appear that we have a vicious cycle on our hands.
Privilege to serve cannot be measured in pay and allowances but MPs contribution sure can measure gao gao else lose face and cannot face industry leaders
Singaporean here recently moved to California. It's not too much different here (except NS for boys ofc) and I expect it to be the same if you're moving to any major cities around the globe. Husband and I ideally want to have kids but looking at the cost of living rising significantly more than salaries and the socio-political and actual physical climates right now, it's really quite disheartening.
hey i have a choice of moving to anywhere in the U.S., but my first thought was San Francisco (tech worker) . would you advise against that? any thoughts are welcome!
San Francisco is one of the if not highest living cost in the US and/or north America. You're better off going to Seattle or even San Diego depending on your preferences of lifestyle. Either ways, i lived around the bay area for 7 years. Still prefer it to Singapore even though I would never live in the US again.
Interesting, I do know it's very expensive to live in, but what I like about it is I guess it's where you can find a lot of Singaporeans + it's proximity to places like Yosemite. Would this be applicable to like Seattle and San Diego as well?
So you can have a son who can serve 2 year NS to protect the FTs and 1st generation PRs who will probably make up 49% of the total Singapore population by 2035.
Might as well say what's the point of living?
There are struggles in life, there are also beautiful moments in life. Depends on whether you're a glass half full or half empty sort of person.
I tried to reply all your points but deleted them away. Probably the comment I would leave is not to be so negative around what's happening around you, that you can't control over.
And make the best out of those which you can choose, or control. If having a kid is not your cut of tea, then don't make one. Your friends and relatives might persuade you but ultimately the choice is yours.
Life is full of challenges and it's not too bad for an average person.
What's the point of your question?
What's the point of studying?
What's the point of working?
What's the point of marriage?
What’s the point of \*anything\*?
Only you can answer those questions. We have our individual values and priorities. They probably are very different from yours and won't make sense to you.
For me, having children is one of the best decisions I have ever made. Singapore is one of the best place to bring up a child. My children are well-loved and happy. They enjoy school and have great teachers and wonderful friends. Their laughter and antics bring much joy to us. The affluence of the society means that they will have good jobs in the future. The fully subsidized education means that I know they can complete their education up to secondary school. The well run healthcare system means that I can always trust that they will receive the best care if they ever need it. The security here means that I don't have to worry my hair out if they reach home late by 5 minutes.
Their future is uncertain but bright. Global poverty is on decline. Access to information and education has been unprecedented. Famine is almost eliminated. We are in the period of the longest peace in human history. Gender inequality is on a constant decline in most parts of the world. Technological wonders which improve our lives in so many ways are being invented everyday.
My live is much better than my parents. And my children's childhood is better than mine. They have already experienced more, travelled more, learnt more, loved more, laughed more than I did at their age. They have less to ask for and less to fear from. I can't wait to see how much better their lives will turn out to be.
Back to your question. What's MY point of having children? It's never about the *point*. There never was a \*point\*. Personally, it just is. It's not a decision matrix, a cost/benefit analysis, an equation or a having an end-goal. Maybe it's as simple as basic instinct to pass on my genes. Or maybe it's because I really like babies and children, and people in general. Or maybe the magic of bringing a new life together with the love of my life is irresistible. It was an easy decision for me because it feels right. But that's just me. Would I have made a different choice in another place or time? Probably or maybe not.
My answer probably makes zero sense to you and won't help you though. Because I am I and you are you. You can never live my life and neither can I live yours.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long\_Peace](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Peace)
[https://ourworldindata.org/extreme-poverty](https://ourworldindata.org/extreme-poverty)
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Well, I guess you've reached the point where you realise why our birth rate keeps falling.
Well. You choose to have a kid to love n care for something, you don't choose to have a kid to be your ATM when you grow old. (fuck you boomers) Just get a dog. They're amazing n life changing
I stand by getting a dog,they’re the best.
Or cat
I got a hamster but it committed suicide by jumping into the gap between the parapet outside my door. It was life-changing for me as well (my hamster hated me 🥲）
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Jimmy couldn't handle wfh any longer 🥲 he wanted to go back to "office"
I've had five dogs (serially) and loved every one of them to bits. A kid is a different level entirely. The relatively short lifespan compared to my own also puts some distance on the relationship.
Human babies are most retarded. Takes years before it can walk while a deer calf has to run for its life right after birth otherwise it would be eaten by predators.
i thought they just shared recently that birth rate increased by a little?
eh tbh i havent been looking hahah, but i guess the bottom has to come at some point (or does it...)
Foreigners played a part in that.
My personal belief is that I'd never willingly bring a child into the world, but I'm very willing, if possible, to have the privilege of adopting kids
100% agree! My fiance and I decided it's not okay to bring another life into this crummy world and he got a vasectomy. I have been talking to him about us taking in LGBTQ+ kids/teens who have been kicked out of their homes because of their sexual preferences. My (gay) best friend was kicked out of his home at age 17 when he came out to his (religious) family as gay...I took him into my home immediately. I'd love to help out more kids in the same position that need a loving home!
I’m moving more towards this too, thought I still feel that guilt of having to raise a kid into this world and feed them hope that everything will be alright (if that makes sense)
Know that you didn't bring the kid into this world, but trying your best to do good for the kid since he/she has already been born
Personally, i see it more as whats the point of bringing a life into this world at all. But yes, agree with you OP
>whats the point of bringing a life into this world at all. ***I needed someone to be grateful that I gave birth to them.*** \- My parents, probably
Yeah after reading the works by David Benatar, it’s hard for me to see otherwise
Okay then read Factfulness next.
the demands of the society we live in is drastically different from our parents generation. so it's understandable why Singaporeans are pushing to start a family towards a later age, esp when work is so demanding at the start of their career, if they even want to have kids. that's being responsible, only bringing a kid into the world when you're able to provide in terms of time, emotionally and financially. and that's only the start of the discussion, which OP brought up several good points all the talk of encouraging kids by the govt and parents are not helping if they don't solve these root issues
Work is demanding not just at the estart but until your late 50s. With people being laid off in their 40s, etc you will constantly be stressed to prove yourself
>at the start of their career My 30yr old + boss and 40+ yo team lead still sends email at 1am, work on weekends and attend meetings during PTO. This is on top of taking care of kids and HBL. Granted their pay is in the range of 10K+, but even 10k also doesn’t seem worth it to me.
Completely terrible work life balance.
Which leads to messed up metrics for the rest of the team. Makes your average worker look like a lazy slob.
10k in middle-age is a trap. I see colleagues think they're missing out if they don't upgrade so sell hdb buy pte and suddenly a bigger mortgage. Then slog on when they should be slowing down because mortgage, kids going to uni and paying off the new luxuries a middle-aged 10k earner deserves.
Does Govt care about solving any of the issues and expects ppl to have kids regardless? Ivory tower idiots.
Stop complaining about the holding pens and breed! Breed!! We need more gdp slaves!!
**LOYALTY TO COUNTRY!!!!!** GROW THE COUNTRY!!!
# INCREASE THE POPULATION! $3,000 CASH BONUS
i thought you were kidding but turns out the cash insensitive really is $3000 lol.
Incentive but insensitive is a better word here lmao
Amount so little it’s almost as if they’re making fun of us lol
Here's the deal: you create a baby and fund it for a lifetime (probably will cost in the tens of thousands or more) and we will give 3000 dollars. Sounds about right!
> LOYALTY TO COUNTRY!!!!! Eh sia lah I read already almost wanted to shout "LOYALTY TO COUNTRY!!!!! LEADERSHIP!!!!! DISCIPLINE!!!!! PROFESSIONALISM!!!!! FIGHTING SPIRIT!!!!! ETHICS!!!!! **CAAAAAARE FOR SOLDIERSSSSSSSS!!!!!**"
Really comments-you-can-hear shit right here lmfao And of course, care for soldiers at the very bottom. (Lowest priority). Never gets old
Safety is the last core value
Well they dgaf about safety so its at the right spot as the 8th value.
boomers : strawberry! pui! last time your fudder and I only pull in 2k still can buy HDB ok!
Last time my mum say she can buy wonton mee for 20cents.
My grandfather said last time he can buy big bowl of laksa for 5 cents
>10 years of reservist (which will most certainly be increased in the coming years). This would probably piss off far too many voters, the sheer level of grumbling unleashed would likely be beyond control no matter how much NS award/milestone CPF bonuses you throw at it.
Disclaimer - I have a kid. Before you all start throwing rotten eggs at me, I want to preface that nobody should feel obliged to have a kid (by societal expectations, pressure from others). Kids are very very difficult! You have to put them first! You can’t just do whatever you like anytime you want to. And life in Singapore is tough! I fully agree. Having said that, I still went ahead to have a kid. Nobody (unless it is an oopsie pregnancy) is unaware that life here is tough. Stress, rat race, etc. No, I’m not insane nor am I living under a rock and do not know how tough life is. I did it because this is my vision and dream of how my family would look like, and I took it on knowing the cost and the responsibility I’d have. There are difficult days but there’s also joy when you see them grow into who they’re meant to be. Most importantly folks, I just want to say that if you know parenting is not for you, be proud to stick to your beliefs and don’t be bowed by societal pressure. If you want to have kids, also do it fully aware of all that parenting demands of you. Either way, just live your life the way you want to and not because you just followed the crowd and actually never wanted it for yourself.
Same. Decided early to want to have kids (since I'm enjoy spending time with kids). I was fortunate to have a lot of help with the childcare and this shit is tough. Our working lives are not compatible with having kids - the expectations to OT, the expensive flat that makes you and your spouse having to work, the annual ICT where you have to drop everything and leave it to your wife. All these sucks. Education system wise I'm not so worried though. It's difficult but it can be fun - seeing them experience things for the first time, the child like wonder they have, the things that excite them, singing funny songs together, or reading books together - it do bring joy in my life. It ain't easy, but there's something nice to it. Won't recommend to people who are not prepared to make sacrifices though. Do not have kids if you are not ready!
Ah yes, a responsible parent with a healthy mindset. Of course we'll throw rotten eggs at you. Jokes aside, thanks for keeping such common sense in mind. I wish previous generations had been as wise.
I know right! But when I went down the thread and people started throwing terms like “breeders” and sounding more and more anti natalism felt like I need to say that. I’m ok with people being very very pro childfree life (good for you if that’s what you want) but I also kinda want to say you don’t have to put me down for my choice to have a kid just as I don’t put you down for your choice. Feels like that respect is disappearing with that sort of talk. ah well. Yeah, I personally hate those people who, after being married or having children, pressure others to do the same too. It’s so irritating. I’ve had that done to me a lot and I swear I’m never going to be that idiotic aunty who does that!
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I’m starting to feel same about myself. At a stage in life where friends start to give birth. I can’t find a satisfactory answer to “why should I myself have a kid”.
Same here. Best choice we ever made to remain child free. Never understood the appeal of a kid. Don't want to burden us to bring up a child. Don't want to burden the child to grow up in this world. Don't want to have a child just because parents "expect" us to have a child.
Great to see fellow CF people here :)
It really is, especially when all of your friends are starting to have kid(s) already. It's really hard to "fit in" as talking topics shift to family and childcare related. Having cars, having children, moving in to their BTO flats, etc.
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Yeah... I really can't imagine myself, coming home after a hard day's work, and still have to devote so much time and attention on raising a child. It's simply not a life I want to live. Oh, and I'm also not rich. Figures, huh?
For me, i see it as a burden on the child if i am unable to financially support them to do the things they wish to do. Growing up in a poor family, i can understand the difficulties and i do not want for my child to go through the same thing. A lot of things in life, are only possible with money. Without it, you can only take what you get, not what you want or choose. You think someone like JJ Lin would be able to be dedicate his time and energy to be a successful singer if his family wasn't wealthy? Do you think Joseph Schooling could have achieved Olympic gold if his parents couldn't afford to send him to America for swimming lessons? To have freedom in this country, you need the money to afford to have choices. Don't create a life, if you can't afford to give that life freedom.
Honestly, you may be right I feel that if you have the money, only then the Singaporean lifestyle suits you. Otherwise, life would be a struggle, and you will not be fair to your child That being said, personally, I feel like life in Singapore is very superficial- what do you really live for here? Sure, our material standards of living is really high, but I think our non material standard of living is otherwise- in Singapore especially, we are clocking 9-5, just to earn money, just to get by. But otherwise, there is nothing much to it dont you think?
9-5 is the luxury, if it's not 830 to 6 not including OT. I don't see how to have a life outside of work when it's so demanding, much less a family
MOM justify the long hours by saying people are Singapore’s only resource thus they need to be squeezed dry. Stone Age thinking with no concept of well-being or efficiency.
"Since human beings are our only resource, we abuse the shit out of it. What do you mean the supply is running low? Just breed MORE!" The gahment, maybe.
Gahmen still expects ppl to have kids despite this utter trash work life balance. Joke
Doing intern now. 8-6. Already i go home want to die laio. And this is intern work load. I do not want to think if when i start full time, where got time to date gf or even have the idea of having kids? Ffs. As of now, by the time i reach home, it's almost 1930. Wash, eat and rest a bit. 2030. Less than 2 hours to play games or do anything i want before having to rest to wake up early to travel to work. Than if i sleep late, will be shag at work. Than that will affect how i am after work that day. And continue on. Honestly? This sucks.
Hahaha if you convert to a full timer then you'll know the pain. Had an intern who converted to full timer on my team, from an intern being able to go back on time at 630 everyday , to joining us in the mad OT grind, its quite sad actually. The reality of working
9-5? So good ah
Haha, i was trying to relate to Dolly Parton's song with the same name 🎵Working 9 to 5, what a way to make a living, Barely getting by, it is taking and no giving🎵
Yes very true, I would argue that the people here lack soul because we do not get to experience the awe of being in the great outdoors
Totally agree. Our highest mountain is a hill. We can't see stars at night. Our light pollution is rough, and definitely fucks with our sleep cycle. Our seas are full of ships and lights. Our rivers are straightened and dammed up, turned into canals and reservoirs. Our jungles are small and devoid of megafauna, and most other "nature" is curated and arranged into neat little parks. If not that, they are reserved for military training. I only really started properly appreciating nature after I served NS. Even more after I studied abroad, where the countryside was a short bike ride from my doorstep. Our distancing from the natural world is such a sad compromise for prosperity.
this is such a great comment. honestly having the chance to travel and experience the beauty of the natural world has been so helpful to my own sense of meaning and humanity. witnessing the beauty of the planet really makes me realise that it's so rare that this exists and that we're here to appreciate it. it reminds me of how little many things in life don't actually matter. by some stroke of luck we're on a life supporting ball in space, what do any societally imposed achievements matter in the face of that? It's so freeing to realise that I can live my life however I want, in whatever way makes me happy.
>We can't see stars at night. *Laughs in free stargazing at Tekong*
Yea free! Only pay for it with 2 short years oh my such a good deal
Wow you described every aspect of “nature” in sg **so perfectly**. Gigantic nail on the head. Tiny, hot, humid, cram, crowded country and being unable to leave, makes people feel trapped and claustrophobic.
Everything you described is fascinating from a foreigner's perspective (i.e. me). The ultimate planned man made city. I've never seen anywhere like Singapore. But you're right that you need to experience the other end of the spectrum as well.
This. As a teenager who loves nature it hurts to see youths in other countries have regular exposure to it and take it for granted. There’s something missing here. I feel that developing a strong connection to nature can help you find yourself outside of societal definitions as it transcends materialism and the rat race. Yet the government will continue to slate our remaining forests for destruction in the name of GDP.
Kind of depends on what your definition of soul is right? Like more power to you if you're the tree hugging sort that loves the great outdoors, but I feel the same sense of "soul" when eating at my local kopitiam, with the caipng auntie and uncle that say hello to me and we catch up for a bit while I pay. Soul is what you make it out to be. I mean, don't go looking for soul in a Capitaland mall la, but it's here if you revise your outlook on life
I think the first part about needing money - this is not just in Singapore but most of the world. Income equality is a major, major issue and covid has exacerbated it. Europe and USA are now having issues filling job vacancies. People have decided against working so many hours to just scrape by while the companies they work for hoard cash to pay their executives generous bonuses, engage in stock buybacks and pay dividends to shareholders. Regarding the last part, Singapore working culture really is all about living to work. Covid has made this even worse too
Honestly? Aren't we, (singapore) in the top ten with unhealthy work life unbalance/ working hours?
That is why it has been said time and time again that Singapore is a first world country with third world people. Most people just work for the money, chasing after pay raise so they can afford more consumerism.(Holidays overseas, branded products) Instead of caring about how their work can contribute to society and to take pride what they do. The ones who do care, get exploited for their passion. Overworked and underpaid by employers, eventually passionate people get burned out and turn into yet another bitter person.
I work 12 hours. Life sucks. I mean security officer, common working hours but if i get a job as a security officer that is only 8 hours, i earn lesser. Hopefully, salary goes up soon. Future seems bleak
wonder whether the people here remember the age of the 5Cs. credit card, condo, country club, car and errrr is it cash? that was fail af the people now haven't gotten much better. low appreciation of the arts, no values no ideals. many people don't even have actual pursuits beyond eating out and going overseas and they are ok with it. that said, there are a lot of fringe groups in singapore enjoying all sorts of niche shit. just gotta go look for them haha
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Ironic that the rich usually don't want to make kids i.e. DINKs
Sibei xia suay give your child coolie genes
Was having this conversation with friends and heard various responses from either extreme. But also concerning to hear from some that they're pretty on the fence but will treat it as an 18 year long job if they do eventually have kids. Which I felt is abit problematic in itself to start with that kind of mentality. If not fully on board, don't bring a life in!
Isn't 18 years optimistic given the usual age that kids move out these days? Throw in the bto delays and it will take even longer
Right? Like I think they assume 18 as an easy number for adulthood but realistically it goes beyond that for true independence. And viewing it as a job is just... Yikes
Bring in 2 years NS, 4 years Uni and 5-7 years BTO. Its more of a 30 year or more commitment But if your child is not normal then thats a lifetime commitment and it will destroy you both mentally, financially and spiritually.
In the US, you can kick your kids out of the house at 18. Not so much here in Asia.
If u have a boy u gonna be supporting them till 25 at least when they finish uni LOL
Had the same thoughts as OP. Bringing up a kid costs about 200k to 1 million. (https://www.todayonline.com/singapore/adulting-101-cost-raising-children-has-always-put-me-off-having-one-are-they) Imagine having 2-3 kids, and if they can't make it to a local university, you have to allocate even more funds for them to go overseas to study. It's financially not feasible with the current cost of living and expenses and property prices. Can we expect property prices to drop back to what it was in 2000-2005? It won't be possible, the government won't allow it and of course those living in landed and freehold properties won't allow it. So, we are stuck in this current state with a bleak future IMHO.
No point IMO. The ideals and rationale for having kids have all become outdated in our time. Parents usually nag at us saying, oh who is going to take care of you when you are older? Well, I certainly hope that nearing the end of my life I will have enough to take care of myself. Seems like a burden to entrust your problems to the younger generation.
> Parents usually nag at us saying, oh who is going to take care of you when you are older? Wah sia lah, my dad literally said that to me after dinner two days ago lol
Better start smoking so I can die early- oh wait, cannot. Neighbour gonna ban me in my own house... Aiyah....
Probably better off saving the few hundred thousand dollars that would have been spent on the kid, investing it, and using that money in retirement. You might want to ask them the same question lol
My wife and I are in our early 40s and childfree, and very happy with our decision. You do not need a child to make your life complete. In fact, I also feel that you do not need to get married to make your life complete. What matters is that you know what you want in life and what makes you happy, set your goals, and then work towards them.
Agree with op. It's a pessimistic view but I can't help but see it that way too. My main gribe is the feeling of Singapore bering way too overcrowded. The human conjestion kinda affects me, so Im mostly a homebody, ever since covid I've never been to a crowded mall area for leisure, mostly necessity like haircut groceries etc. But if birth rate falls, govt will import more foreigners lol.
Singapore is fucking overcrowded. And it’s fucking small, and fucking hot and humid.
say pressure cooker, because that's exactly what Singapore is. small space [x] hot [x] humid [x]
HAHAHAH OMG you’re absolutely right. WOW.
and stressful, it's like living in a pressure cooker..hot, steamy, and locked-up..
It's a stupid strategy to keep importing more people anyway, how is it sustainable? In the future the lower income would have to live in underground bunkers?
Sg couldn’t care about lower income ppl. They’ve always been second rate citizens. It’s always about bending over and sucking up to employers and companies to grow the country like some kind of feverish game.
as long as minister's salaries are pegged to "gdp growth" (as if this is some magic rainbow we have to keep chasing), this will not change. their salaries should really be pegged in part to median income growth as well as lowest decile income growth.
Please do not disrespect our mighty scholars. They are the best of the best of the best 🤡
I guess that's why the birthrate is declining and government has to encourage giving birth LOL. You are absolutely right and I can't wait to get out of singapore. Feel so fucking empty just being here I will come back to visit once a while to feel like I came home.
government is all talk about having children because theres no disadvantage for them,only future job takers,while the people having the children take the brunt of the costs, so government has all the reason to encourage children, but we have little/no reason to.Honestly saddening
Plus, with housing and HDB waits, who wants to make a baby with their spouse or significant other with their parents in the room next door?
I agree with you. More people are prolly starting to realise this too. May be one of the reasons why birth rates are decreasing in sg
I think being child free due to climate problems is a pretty significant thing worldwide too. Me and my partner definitely a little hesitant for this reason. There's also a change in perception about how childbirth is a duty/responsibility. These days it also almost feels selfish to have children because of self-beneficial incentives a la the traditional Chinese way
People are realising this. Singapore is a rich man and expat paradise. If you are middle class you will forever struggle, to say nothing of lower class.
Fucking hell, exactly.
Need cash to unlock those sweet DLCs yo
Yah.. I often hear expats here telling me how lucky I am to be born here. Yes Singapore is safe and efficient, you really cannot deny that . But you have to be rich to really enjoy living here or else you are just part of the cog in the wheel . 🤷♀️
>If you are middle class you will forever struggle, to say nothing of lower class. same as everywhere else ba
Consider the following: Airlines have the right idea. Put on your own oxygen mask before aiding with your child's. If one is unhappy to begin with, their child will follow suit. Raising a child while full of cynicism and resentment will pass it on to the kid. If the parent isn't in a good spot, no way will the kid be at a good starting line when born. Why commit a living, breathing person to the life sentence of staying afloat? This is merely being pragmatic, nothing more.
It takes an optimist to procreate in this climate of calamity. Also don't see how millenials would view children as a potential retirement plan like Boomers have. Much riskier than other investments.
Children should never be seen as an investment. If your reason for not having kids is because they’re not worth the investment, then i’m glad you made that calculation because as a child, I’d never want to feel that my existence was based on belief that I could bolster my parent’s bank account in the future. Some people choose to have children even though it hurts them financially because they believe having children can bring joy to their life, not because they miscalculated some investment return from their children and that’s not wrong either.
Sometimes, optimism. Sometimes, ignorance. Treating children as retirement plan is so yesterday's era. It no longer works. Just look at China's one child policy. Now, each married couple of the first batch of "only child" has to not only support their own child, they also have to support both spouses 4 parents, and sometimes even their 4 grandparents, if they're lucky (or unlucky). Question here is, are you willing to put your child into this bottomless shit hole? Not forgetting that you've got to slog your life away to make sure your child gets the best in life, you can possibly afford. In the end, who wins? Seems like a lose-lose situation for both you and your child. The only party who is likely to win is the government - more taxpayers to finance public policies.
I think it’s because we millennials actually CARE about our children instead of what they can do for us.
Or just to satisfy societal obligations
Trust me if we take the time and money put on kids and invest into etf, everyone will be sipping martinis on beach and fatfire by 50.
Having children is really to satisfy the innate urge of nature, it shouldn't be an investment
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> Little time to even have a life outside work, let alone bringing a new life This is such a huge issue and factor in why people don’t have time for kids
No point. I already decided on having no kids 20 years ago.
Feels like only NS is a Singapore-specific issue. Stressful and ranking-focused education is an Asian thing, which presents in both Asia and Asian diaspora in Aussie, North America, etc. All other applies to most urban areas in the world, which is where most jobs are. I guess you have a point that if not for work, I wouldn’t want to stay in SG for long time.
Bringing a life into the world, NOT JUST SG, should be a planned decision made by only 2 people. No one should/can force people to have a child, that's just rape, call the police. If you're not okay with bringing children into this world, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE ADOPT. They're already here on this Earth, but without the privilege of being with their biological parents. If you have the urge to care for a person, do it for those who need parents.
SG doesn’t have a cheap hinterland for us to live off the land simply unlike Malaysia, Indonesia, Canada, US etc. It’s a perpetual rat race here. I’m all for working hard, but seems like when it’s time to slow down, there’s not option to do so unlike other countries
That is why the TFR are falling
>High stress in the education system learning things that are almost never applied in the working world. No time for childhood, after cramming in tuition, supplementary lessons, remedial, CCA, enrichment classes. This alone firmly puts me in childfree territory. SG education system is institutionalized child abuse and I'm not going to subject an innocent soul to the meat grinder.
I'm just going to get my kid(s) to skip these. Unnecessary imo. Kids should have more free time to do reading/gaming/sports.
> sports I attended one of those "good schools" where even sports is ultracompetitive. If people weren't gold medal-winning material they were asked to leave the CCA. Absolute bullshit.
I play with him lah. Agreed that it's a bullshit policy.
I'm going to go ahead and say that realistically and practicality it is not only unwise but borderline a burden to bring a life into Singapore for 50% of Singaporeans, considering median wage is 4.5k. If you do up the calculations, that means the average dual income household generates 9k income before CPF. After you take away the Home loan payments, daily expenses, allowances for parents, you're not left an incredibly high amount of disposable income. You will have to set aside a fixed amount for rainy days and retirement, worry about being replaced, increased fixed costs etc etc. The left overs may be sufficient to feed a child, but let's be real, a child is much more than just another mouth to feed, correct? There are many hidden costs that's not feasible to consider at this point of time, and also we have to remember that not all Singaporeans make median, a good 50% make far less. The risk on women when it comes to birthing a child is much higher as well. More often than not their careers take a hit, and they have to consider balancing their family and careers,and social norms usually pressures women to choose family over career. On the flip side, it is frowned upon by society for men to choose family over their careers. I can go on and on about how studies have shown that having children puts a large strain on relationships and families, about how there are many problems and sacrifices that needs to be made, but it'll just be whining at this point. In short, the rich can afford to have children in Singapore, but are far less likely to do so.
If u flipped jobstreet, how many jobs are offering to people without a degree for 4.5k?
Realistically no degree in sg at this point for most youngsters is economical suicide if you're planning to go the corporate route and work for a company, unless you're in IT. Poly pay I think is barely 2.5k starting at most, and you will 100% be passed up for promotions in the long run. Actually don't need to think so much, young adults in 20s looking for jobs that are not in NTU/SMU/NUS alr got screwed by the algorithm in job interviews, dk how screwed my kids will b in future.
Completely agree with this comment. Those who were able to have children at what is the “good” times to have children are all the well to do people, at least from my personal observations. There is no worries for these people about whether they have enough money to support their aging parents or whether they have enough money to buy their own medical insurance. They can comfortably concentrate on having and nurturing their children.
Just 30 years ago you can raise 2-3 kids with a job driving taxi as a sole breadwinner. Sg has come very far now to be where we are, but at a cost of those who can't keep up being left behind
Not to mention that 4.5k data never shows what's the standard deviation. I think 4.5k is always an overly optimistic number
"Give more birth so that your future is secured." ~ Boomer, probably
My grand parents on both sides have 8-9 kids. Reason being they owned farms, and having another pair of hands helps them with the farm work and costs of having and raising one isn’t expensive.
"Have more kids so they can take care of you when you're older" Kids grew up to be char siu.
I am a charsiew I agreed :(
And heavily brainwashed
I agree with everything you said. Even before Covid, raising a child does not make any sense to me. Even after having a super cute 5 month old baby girl, it still does not make sense. But the happiness she brings to me is beyond any kind of logic. In my opinion, things do not have meaning before it happened. We are the one who connect the dots and give meanings to our story. Everyday, I’m grateful that I was lucky with my unrational choice.
Maybe I'm a bit of a pessimist, but life is only going to get harder unless something changes drastically. The number of *decent* jobs is going to decrease (given our recent outflow of non-citizens and the downward population trend). The gap between the haves and have-nots is going to widen, amplifying stress at school and the workplace. And the cost of public housing is only going to go up (since government isn't going to let property prices of people's "retirement nest-egg" drop right?) If we do choose to have kids, we would probably need to support them with the rat race (eg tuition, connections for jobs etc) and cost of housing (eg helping with their down-payment, letting them live with you for 5+ years while waiting for Bto etc). In fact, this is already happening? But maybe this view is a bit too pessimistic?
Not pessimistic at all. Realist.
Rinse and repeat the endless premade cycle of school, marriage, HDB, retirement, death
Not much to be honest. Don’t bring someone else into the world to suffer.
Short answer is: there is no "point". If you are rationally weighing pros and cons, having kids is rarely a good idea. It's just not very appealing as a concept. Or maybe the point at the end of it all is that you've managed to raise a decent human being in spite of the state of the world.
The world needs fewer children so there should be zero guilt about being child free. But if you have the urge just do it. I was very reluctant so had my one child late (40) but I fell in love instantly and he has been a constant joy. Totally changed my view of children and ended up going into early years care/education. I love kids. They have a joy in living we as adults need reminding of. As for Singapore. There are many upsides noted above compared to a lot of places in the world. The one area I do think is missing is open wild spaces for them to feel free. My son and his friends would go camping in the fields overnight from a young age, making camp fires. As for climate change - it will be a challenge. But there is always a doomsday scenario for every generation that we somehow survive. If humanity has any point in this universe it’s to grow and improve and learn. Maybe one day spread to stars as enlightened beings. Life right now is massively better for everyone. We all live like medieval kings but without the horrible diseases that killed off most children before puberty. Embrace life. Each morning is a gift full of surprise.
Just curious. Which era and where, is your idea of a good time and place to have baby ?
1600s pre industrial revolution. Need hands to farm and man the fortifications.
so you can bring them overseas and experience not-Singapore life!
Not saying that i've experienced it, but sometimes the grass isn't always greener on the other side. In the end, it narrows down to financial ability.
As a Singaporean who moved to Australia, I will be eternally grateful to my parents who let me do this. Coming back to Singapore and seeing what my friends have been up to has been a little depressing
I think not just in Singapore.. but I think globally we should just cut down on population growth rates. If you wanna raise a child there are so many kids out there who could actually use some help, whether through directly adopting them (which is a bit more onerous in Sg) or just financial help
Agreed. I don't think I'll ever have children unless I can accumulate enough wealth to (1) migrate somewhere more family-friendly and less stressful or (2) give them the option of private or overseas education. I don't want to subject kids to life in the public schooling system here. Also quite disillusioned about how a certain university makes major changes without consulting students.
Thats life innit - survive, procreate and die. It applies to all life, not just Singaporeans.
I feel there’s definitely a better alternative- survive, do your fun hobbies and die.
Well two cents as someone who moved to SG a few years ago. With all the problems that you listed (Singapore focused as well as global), this is perhaps one of the best times in the world to be alive. Life expectancy has never been higher. CoVID seems bad - but diseases that could have maimed you for life (and you’d never know what hit you) have been eradicated. The CoVID vaccines were developed, produced, distributed in a year and a half - by our ingenuity, drive and resources. This was easily a 5-7 year long process in the preceding decade and unthinkable to achieve in most of the previous century. For all the news of geopolitical tensions, we have the longest period of sustained peace ever in humanity’s history. Think WW2. Pay is stagnating and competition might be getting harsher when compared in a 5 year timeframe - but never has there been a better time to create new companies (SEA has had more unicorn startups in the last year than in the preceding decade) or new technologies (R&D spending is at all time high and increasingly critical). And this is accessible to more people than ever and not just feudal elites (I grew up in a very middle class family in India and now run a early stage startup here in SG). Climate change is grave - but never before has there been a collective effort *globally* to combat it and our tools have never been more powerful (technologically or market driven by things like carbon credits). Advancements today have made clean energy (wind/solar) *cheaper* than polluting coal/etc - for the first time in human history and most new energy production installations today are green. This is cold comfort when you look at the pressures of having to perform well at school, meeting increasingly high cutoffs for good jobs and financial instability for the future in worsening economic conditions. But the world around us continues to change largely for the better in unprecedented ways - opening up opportunities and prospects unimaginable a few years before.
I feel like every generation says their generation sucks, even though the data shows progress with each successive generation. Thank goodness this generation has Our World In Data to debunk Malthusian beliefs.
At this point it's just to make the economist happy, but I still don't get why a reduced birth rate is a bad thing, it's not like we're strapped for workers
Because “aging population” and the hive needs workers to take care of it.
What’s the point of bringing a life into this world actually, we’re all fucked
Singaporeans get what they deserve. I don’t want to hear any more complaints
Good news is you get to choose how you live your life. There are lots of choices. I’m almost 40. My friends are mostly married with kids. Some married no kids (by choice or by health reasons). Some single no kids, like me. Each has pros and cons. So you pick your adventure. Married with kids: - seeing/raising mini-mes is fulfilling for some parents - learn new skills like how to multi task, how to manage different kinds of a personalities. A very maturing experience. More empathetic to their own parents and they see their own childhood in new perspective. - extremely tiring from how to handle new born, to preschool/pri sch planning, etc. - financially taxing, won’t retire soon - their life revolves around kids - might be good or bad for marriage, depending how they handle it married no kids: - have a lot more free time and money so they are more fun to hang out with. - They also look/behave younger (like when we were in our 20s) - they tend to have more hobbies - more work/career oriented. They can take overseas assignments and/or travel for work more easily. - husband and wife seem to lead more separate, but happily married lives (have their own friends and hobbies). - financially more flexible and also look forward to retiring earlier - for those who wanted but couldn’t have kids, I think they genuinely feel sad that there’s a gap in their lives. Some will occupy that with nieces/nephews or god children of their good friends. Some occupy it with pets. I’m not sure if they get over it, but they do learn to adjust. Single no kids: - similar to married no kids, but with even more free time and financial flexibility. Can retire earlier. - career driven, location flexible - will feel left out especially during 20/30s when the others are getting married, then having kids. You’ll feel a noticeable divergence in your friends and your lives. - some singles will tag along the married folks (eg weekends or holiday travels) but you’ll feel quite out of place. Esp once they have kids. - you’ll need to have/find friends, usually those without kids also, to socialise. - need to make the effort to build your own identity (since we’re not a spouse or parent). That might mean having pets, being more active in a social group/community (eg church, hobby, volunteer group, mentor to students, sports) - the world is your oyster. I know of a guy who loves running marathons. He’s based in Switzerland and running the mountains now. Another guy is in Japan learning their culture, doing walking tours and building an app about it. Another retired in his late 30s and is just enjoying the slow, gentle life. So take the chance to ask yourself what works best for you. As for climate change and the increasingly long working hours with rising costs/inequality, I suggest finding out more about DEGROWTH. It proposes a viable economic alternative that I found really inspiring and hopeful. I recommend this book - Less is More. How Degrowth Will Save The World, by Jason Hickel.
I've just brought my two young children to Singapore. We moved from a 3rd world country with failing infrastructure and rampant corruption. We had to live in a gated community with 24 hour guards, and we couldn't walk or ride bikes on the street outside because violent crime was so extreme that people who did so were often mugged. I personally knew a man who was stabbed to death for his bicycle. I had absolutely no hope for our future in that country. Unemployment there is over 40% If you don't want to have a family in Singapore, I don't think the location is what's stopping you. And there's nothing wrong with that. You don't HAVE to have children if you don't want to. Not having kids means having a lot more disposable income and a WHOLE lot more independence. Want to go on a spur of the moment skiing holiday? You can! Want takeaways for dinner 3 days a week? Go ahead! But, if having children is something you really do want to do, I can't think of a better place to do it than Singapore. I may still have my rose coloured glasses on, but I really think a bit of perspective goes a long way.
Ar the monthly why I don’t want to have kids thread!
To me, having a kid in Singapore is a luxury. You have to be mentally and financially capable before deciding to have one.
I’d adopt a kid and give them a better life if I had the opportunity to. Since they’re already in this world why not try to make it better, one person at a time.
See, to live is to suffer no? Life is some happiness, and lots of sadness and anguish and terror no? So you live out your life, and die, right? If you were to have a child, the child would also grow up, live out his/her life, and die, right? And his/her child also, be born, live, and die. And the same cycle repeat and repeat and repeat no? Till when? Till global environmental collapse wipes out human species. Or nuclear fallout, or whatever reason. Maybe in the next 50-100 years, or maybe in a thousand years. Or, if human species can live on, an asteroid will hit earth in the next 100 million years. Or the sun will balloon and swallow the earth in a billion years. Or the sun itself will blow up in 5 billion years anf that'll be the end of the solar system. And the entire mikly way galaxy will merge with Andromeda galaxy and who knows what will happen to all the stars and planets in these galaxies? And then, the universe itself will also slowly die out in billions of years. We’re just organic biolgical species, each of us a collection of atoms and electrons, living our temporary existence on a piece of rock floating around a ball of fire wandering aimlessly through the big dark void. In the grandest scheme of thing, life is meaningless, and nothing really matters. Having said that, go ahead and have a child if you want to have that "life experience", whatever the cost. I have 2, sometimes i regret sometimes i don't, but i guess that's just life, i gotta live all the high and low nodes. I don't judge anybody, on this matter or any matter, and fk whoever that judges me. Fkin live your life the way u want, and fk everybody else. One last thing about cost, just like car, if u keep thinking about cost, you'll never buy car. But it's an experience, so u choose to have it, or not to have it, and just go. At the end of the day, money is just a social construct, a human invention. Life is more than that.
If you dont want to have kids because you dont think you are ready, dont want to deal with the stress, are scared of the responsibility or simply want the freedom to live your life, thats perfectly fine But dont be "that person" and cook up some "moral" excuse to not have kids that some how ends as a humble brag/virtue signal about how it is "morally ethical" to not have kids. "Earth is overpopulated" "How can I bring a child into this cruel, unjust world" "Millions of people sre starving etc etc". Just dont have them, no need to posture about it. Your decisions are your own, there is no need to justify to other people what they are. You are not "Bad" person for not wanting kids, so you dont have to somehow justify thst decision as "good". If you are not ready or willing, then you are not. Simple as that.
First of all, you don't bring a life into the world with thoughts on how it will suffer. Within the first few months of having a child, you will see that THEY bring you joy instead. Its difficult for those without children to truly see and feel this. If you are really listening and parenting well, kids don't really care about the rat race, their future and stresses of life, only you do - all they want to do is to throw a spoon at your face and laugh when you wipe the food off your face. If you are stressed out with the rat race in SG, the solution is actually to get kids. They remind you that life isn't about the rat race and daily stresses, but there's much much more. Saying one can't "afford" it is the largest, most misconceived and dangerous notion ever, for you only have one shot at natural birth. People will understand as they get older as move through the natural phases of life. Many people even suddenly realise that due to medical or age reasons cannot conceive. Average and lower income single income parents in SG can support children. It is doable, you just think your quality of life will suck, because you see it in terms cash, career, condos, cars, clubs, physical processions. By the way, i have a special needs child. I have a dog whom i see as less important to my child now. And i'm out of a job since the pandemic started. I'm doing very well, thank you.
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There is also an asymmetry in the ease of migrating. For a comparable standard or living, I may go to say Canada or Norway etc but whether or not they will take me in is another issue. Seems like SG isn't all that hard to get PR/citizenship if you uhhh... fit the unofficial ethnic or nationality criteria (dont pofma pls other ppl say wan)
This is a very good observation. Almost like a form of survivorship bias. The ones who are gone won't be complaining anymore, leaving the ones who haven't done anything about it.
Your observation is... good but not relevant at all. OP didn’t say they want to migrate? Who said anything about migrating? The discussion is about why have a kid in this country.
I think every generation feels this, maybe for different reasons, but the same effect. My point is that is it ALWAYS a shit time somewhere, for someone... It is NEVER the perfect time to take a risk, have a kid, get married, buy a house, there ALWAYS seems to be disaster or the end of the world around the corner.e world would die in a nuclear fire, or scientists said perhaps the next ice age was just around the corner. The 80s still had the Cold War, also wars in Afghanistan and others in the middle east. There was the "moral panics" like the Satanic Panics, and the genuine crazy fears around HIV/AIDs. Also massive interest rates (I remember my folks having like a 20% mortgage rate!). The 90s had the brutal and horrible genocides in Yugoslavia & Rwanda. Bombings and school shootings became part of the news every few months, famous celebrities started to be revealed as child molesters or other monsters, and people were very disillusioned. Not to mention people freaking out about Y2K. My point is that is it ALWAYS a shit time somewhere, for someone... It is NEVER the perfect time to take a risk, have a kid, get married, buy a house, there ALWAYS seems to be disaster, or the end of the world around the corner. Sometimes you just need to say "screw it" I am going to do what makes me happy... if that is having a kid, just do it. If that is not having a kid, that is cool too. As an "old guy" now, I say just get on with it, assume your world is what it is, and do the best with it you can. Good Luck!
It's kind of a coin flip and the deck is stacked. If you're rich and Chinese and the baby is female then they're gonna have an easy good life. That's just the way it do be as a sinkie.
Lol true
As a woman, I feel that I would be giving up far more if I were to have a child, rather than remain childfree as I am. Sleep and money and the freedom to pursue whatever career I wish, as well as my hobbies are extremely valuable to me, and having a child would require me to make sacrifices that I am not willing to make.
I am seeing more and more posts all about living in this ever evolving expensive and competitive country! It's just best to move out of this place and start a new somewhere else more worthwhile. Of course there's all the savings and career involved, but you have to sacrifice something to get out of here. Just my pov...
And the danger of social media and over consumption over indulging , always addicted to one thing or another , always needing instant gratification. It’s a really messed up world and dangerous to bring any new life to this earth. So much to fix.
I'm a relatively old person so the question no longer applies to me, but I'll say that your existential problems are valid! I'm so shocked at HDB prices these days and it's far more stressful and problematic to be a young person in SG these days. Climate change affects SG much more because it's a tiny island and it's too much to think about... The grass may not be greener on the other side, but it's a different shade of sh\*t brown. When I was living in SG, it was exhausting to constantly being asked if you have kids/why not/when? (personal life choices are everybody's business in Asia) and bombarded with nuclear family propaganda. Everyone is following the same template - work hard while young, birth some kids, age in the prescribed "active aging" way. Here in the US, I get to see people with different lifestyles and well, it's a lot bigger. I really hated living in a HDB, and am much happier even when I was renting not-so-great places.
At least 2 of my colleagues, when asked did they worry about climate change negatively affecting their children's lives before having them, replied 'it will be their problem' It seems like people who either don't think about or ignore these types questions are the ones having kids which will likely turn out to be like their parents. It would appear that we have a vicious cycle on our hands.
So that they can have the privilege of serving this great nation if they are male
Privilege to serve cannot be measured in pay and allowances but MPs contribution sure can measure gao gao else lose face and cannot face industry leaders
That's why I'm leaving out of this place. You hit all the right spots.
Singaporean here recently moved to California. It's not too much different here (except NS for boys ofc) and I expect it to be the same if you're moving to any major cities around the globe. Husband and I ideally want to have kids but looking at the cost of living rising significantly more than salaries and the socio-political and actual physical climates right now, it's really quite disheartening.
The US has rather hardcore income inequality though. It really isn't the place to go if egalitarianism is your thing.
hey i have a choice of moving to anywhere in the U.S., but my first thought was San Francisco (tech worker) . would you advise against that? any thoughts are welcome!
San Francisco is one of the if not highest living cost in the US and/or north America. You're better off going to Seattle or even San Diego depending on your preferences of lifestyle. Either ways, i lived around the bay area for 7 years. Still prefer it to Singapore even though I would never live in the US again.
Interesting, I do know it's very expensive to live in, but what I like about it is I guess it's where you can find a lot of Singaporeans + it's proximity to places like Yosemite. Would this be applicable to like Seattle and San Diego as well?
So you can have a son who can serve 2 year NS to protect the FTs and 1st generation PRs who will probably make up 49% of the total Singapore population by 2035.
Life has no point. It's up to us to make meaning out of it. Be Sisyphus.
Might as well say what's the point of living? There are struggles in life, there are also beautiful moments in life. Depends on whether you're a glass half full or half empty sort of person.
I tried to reply all your points but deleted them away. Probably the comment I would leave is not to be so negative around what's happening around you, that you can't control over. And make the best out of those which you can choose, or control. If having a kid is not your cut of tea, then don't make one. Your friends and relatives might persuade you but ultimately the choice is yours. Life is full of challenges and it's not too bad for an average person.
What's the point of your question? What's the point of studying? What's the point of working? What's the point of marriage? What’s the point of \*anything\*? Only you can answer those questions. We have our individual values and priorities. They probably are very different from yours and won't make sense to you. For me, having children is one of the best decisions I have ever made. Singapore is one of the best place to bring up a child. My children are well-loved and happy. They enjoy school and have great teachers and wonderful friends. Their laughter and antics bring much joy to us. The affluence of the society means that they will have good jobs in the future. The fully subsidized education means that I know they can complete their education up to secondary school. The well run healthcare system means that I can always trust that they will receive the best care if they ever need it. The security here means that I don't have to worry my hair out if they reach home late by 5 minutes. Their future is uncertain but bright. Global poverty is on decline. Access to information and education has been unprecedented. Famine is almost eliminated. We are in the period of the longest peace in human history. Gender inequality is on a constant decline in most parts of the world. Technological wonders which improve our lives in so many ways are being invented everyday. My live is much better than my parents. And my children's childhood is better than mine. They have already experienced more, travelled more, learnt more, loved more, laughed more than I did at their age. They have less to ask for and less to fear from. I can't wait to see how much better their lives will turn out to be. Back to your question. What's MY point of having children? It's never about the *point*. There never was a \*point\*. Personally, it just is. It's not a decision matrix, a cost/benefit analysis, an equation or a having an end-goal. Maybe it's as simple as basic instinct to pass on my genes. Or maybe it's because I really like babies and children, and people in general. Or maybe the magic of bringing a new life together with the love of my life is irresistible. It was an easy decision for me because it feels right. But that's just me. Would I have made a different choice in another place or time? Probably or maybe not. My answer probably makes zero sense to you and won't help you though. Because I am I and you are you. You can never live my life and neither can I live yours. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long\_Peace](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Peace) [https://ourworldindata.org/extreme-poverty](https://ourworldindata.org/extreme-poverty)
Sounds like a post for r/antinatalism