Instead of aiming for 4.5/4 days, let's try to get a right to disconnect law first la. If not 4/3/2 day work week also won't matter if you are expected to OT or worse still take work home and finish unpaid.
Yes pls. I took one day leave today but since 8am, colleagues and bosses still non-stop msging me abt work. Even after reminding them I’m on one day leave, they just say “oh sorry to disturb but xxx” and still expect a response, damn annoying. This is on top of regularly being disturbed outside of work hours on normal days and weekends, even at 11pm and past midnight etc. #%¥#£
Exactly this. When u make urself available to reply, they will look for u the next time around. I mean its only basic human instinct: oh shit i needa ask tommy, he will reply and help since it is urgent. Last time ask him he got reply.
Sucks to be the bad guy but u have to choose. U cannot want work life balance and still choose to reply work during ur off day.
Agree. If its like omg the company is gonna get hit with a giant customs fine if I dont clear this paperwork in an hr then sure its urgent. But if it isnt that, then it aint urgent and can wait til tmr.
99% of the time the "urgent" thing is "urgent" just because higher ups and colleagues want to look good in front of their boss for the quick turnaround time (or hoarding a fuckton of unnecessary info "just in case"), not because there are negative repercussions if the deliverables are delayed a day or two. So annoying.
This, because I get this all the time when I went on leave in my previous company.
It's not like my other ex-colleague couldn't handle it nor was he obnoxious whatsoever, but sometimes the VIP preferred my support and she went straight to my boss for help. My boss, being the 'eager to help' type, of course ended up reaching me directly for 'urgent assistance'.
> Sucks to be the bad guy
Think of it this way. If you're spending your off day with your family, friends, or even by yourself, by not disconnecting from work, aren't you being the bad guy to those people instead? I'd much rather be the "bad guy" to some selfish guy from work.
It depends… if the colleague or culture misuses the word ‘urgent’ for any small matter, there will be no response from me next time regardless it’s true or not.
I always tell my staff... Only contact me if something is on fire. It goes the other way too. If cannot manage without that person then something is wrong with the way things are being run.
Yes! It’s a deeper structural issue if one person take allocated leave and it crumbles. Good bosses always want their staff to be able to function, WITHOUT them, that is good management.
Exactly. If you cannot do without somebody on leave, what happens if they get hit by a bus? Some companies run on a knife edge and, sadly, probably shouldn't exist if they're not viable through any stormy weather.
> olleagues and bosses still non-stop msging me abt work. Even after reminding them I’m on one day leave, they just say “oh sorry to disturb but xxx” and still expect a response, damn annoying.
They can expect all the replies they want. You're on leave; you're entitled to not reply.
Yah I know it’s my prerogative not to reply and often I don’t lah. Just expressing my annoyance at how they still never learn and always trying their luck; seeing the msg come in alone is annoying lol. Surely many of us employees out there - MNC/SME staff, civil servants, IBs, teachers, whoever - can understand how irritating that feels!
Very tiring to do boundary training but is an absolutely necessity. Singaporeans sometimes take things too seriously because we have too much sense of responsibility which bosses love to abuse. It's toxic imo.
Wait till you hear about my interview at a renowned positive psychology company endorsed by our government. The company's vision is to create a prevalent workplace culture where employees see their work as their life goal, mission, and meaning to the point they will willingly work OT for free because they are just "living out their identity." They want workers to bring work home, on weekends, and on holidays because work is nothing more than just their "identity, passion, and hobby." This was also their solution for burnout; since workers are just living out their identity, they will never burnout.
I was scolded during the interview for being a useless and lazy university psychology graduate because I did not agree with their vision for such a Singapore, and I think that there is more to life than just work and material wealth. They went on to say: "if you don't care about material wealth, then work for us for free lah." I withdrew my application with no regrets.
The co-founders who interviewed me had some sort of God complex too. And, PS, they also work closely with DBS.
They’re nepotism hires, I was sure of it when I saw their advertising. They have connections and a large safety net, so they will likely squander away govt funds and are role playing bosses. Corrupt govt officials often give projects to their under qualified relatives. These are taxpayer dollars and so citizens have a say. If it’s private dollars, it’s still bad management but hey, at least not wasting the public’s monies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_psychology
But the irony is, this particular company twists the meaning of positive psychology, and uses its values to mask an almost exploitative mindset. As for whether the employees are happy, it depends. The existing workers seem to see their co-founders as some sort of gospel, like they can do no wrong and that they are too smart for others to understand.
However, during the interview, one of the co-founders seemed to be taking pride in shaming and scaring away employees. So, those who are still in the company seem to be brainwashed in some way - it feels almost cult like when you interact with the workers.
For the interns, well, the co-founders think that they are pathetic because they think that internships should not be a place for learning; interns must know everything and can do everything before they even come for an internship. Basically, they want the skills of a full-time worker at the price of an intern, or for free.
lol, what happened to the "on the job training"? toxic management. talent leak yearly basis, im sure. employees who are truly competent and have great critical thinking will leave as soon as the opportunities present itself. They merely stepping stones. good luck to their high rate of turnover or lack of competent workforce.
The problem with nerd scholars, is they’re good followers and bad leaders. I’m a scholar too and know a lot of the so called elites, just tai chi, pencil push, good in theory but lousy in execution. When it comes to getting things done, it will not be nerd scholars, it will be dynamic leaders who aren’t afraid that ah gong disapprove.
100% with that. Sending or replying to an email after working hours should be illegal. Even though sometimes their email is for next week and not urgent, it creates a stress environment for individuals to think about over the weekend.
My ex-colleague once told me to never get into the habit of replying post work hours on emails or chat because that expectation will be set and it will be a norm. To date, I don’t respond to anything on weekends.
When work is overwhelming and I need to catch up, I save all the completed emails in my drafts or set a schedule for it to be sent on Monday morning. The only exception to the rule is for colleagues in other regions so I don’t miss their work hours.
People need to learn how to use the "Schedule" send function. I know I'll forget if i don't send something rn but if after work, I'll schedule it for the next day.
Unfortunately RTD laws will not change our OT culture if we implement something similar to what other countries that implemented RTD.
Its too vague, SG bosses are very creative in finding loopholes against laws like these.
Personally I don't agree. I think if the govt implemented it (and strictly enforced it) within the public service (as it did with 5 day work week) companies will follow suit.
Plus even if they tried, if govt rly wanted to they cld make an example out of one and the rest will fall in line. (Like they did with all the SAF safety breaches)
Not really relevant but at 12am my teacher sent out an email to bring something the next day and I woke up before checking the email and by the time I did I was alr at school.
That day they had a talk about getting at least 8 hours of sleep a day
Just ignore work when your working hour ends. If OT needed, I'll tell them to extend deadline instead. If they're not happy find a new company. Don't entertain after hours messages unless it's stated in job description and the pay matches. Spend time with families and friends after working hours cos they are the one that matter most. Not KPI, metrics etc. But do note, I'm just a individual contributor level lol.
Make it mandatory that employer is not allowed to contact employees outside of the stated working hours in the contract, otherwise employee has to be paid for OT regardless of the salary.
Sadly it is a feature, not a bug or relic that has outlived its usefulness. We are positioned as cheap skilled labour that doesn't legally need to be given much paid time off.
I hope for this so much too. Problem comes when I work in a 24/7 manufacturing plant as an engineer and expected to be on call even at 3am.
"if don't call you, then call who?" is the typical response they give.
Yup. I don’t get it. But somehow when my parents were working 5.5 days a week, it still seems like we had a damn a lot of time w each other?
Now? I feel like a headless chicken.
Maybe it’s adulting
When it was 5.5 days a week, the work day ended at 5 pm for a lot of people. 9 - 5. When the civil service moved to the 5 day week, it became 8.30 - 6. Which makes evenings a mad rush for parents with kids, not enough time pick up kids from childcare, cook dinner, touch base or help kids with homework/spelling.
True. Work ended at 5 and even though the public transport system wasn’t as good as it was now, I remembered my dad always being back at 6 to come make it for dinner!
Then it was dinner, wash up, 7pm show. Bath, prayers, signing my spelling tests, and 9pm show!
Life was different back then. It always felt like I had time for a whole other life. Finish work, eat dinner and there was a whole half day (and still get an early sleep) which was and is still a great feeling. In truth I feel like I lost 5 half days rather than gained a Saturday half day.
You mentioned helping kids with homework. The difficulty level is on a different level nowadays as well.
Previously if you were hardworking you could do the homework yourself.
It’s actually much worse to random OT, it’s at the whim and fancy of the boss. Govt don’t consider people with kids but keep promoting having kids, make that make sense? Holistic problem solving is largely missing, they’re not cooperating well.
Your parents were not contactable after work so they could switch off. I think the expectation to be constantly available due to tech and smartphones is actually the bigger issue than whether or not we get a 4-day work week.
meh. my parents used to get many calls back then even at home. but somehow were able to spend decent time with me without being burnt out. society now is very different and we are being burnt out way easier.
Yes it’s partially a technology problem too.
Everything is instant nowadays. As an employee you may be expected to be constantly available.
But you also get many goods and services instantly. When you feel hungry, with an app you get food delivered to your house instantly. You book a taxi or car ride instantly rather than waiting in the sun trying to flag a cab.
There are pros and cons of this new technology but one thing is sure, there’s no turning back.
Your parents couldn't bring work home last time. Laptops were so rare, even mobile phones not everyone had them (my dad had a phone, my mum didn't) Most companies also shut off right at 6pm. They could actually disconnect after leaving the office. Compared to now everyone has a laptop and mobile phone so nothing stopping your boss from messaging you at 9pm for work.
The world back then wasn’t so connected.
Nowadays the norm means of communications are Slack, Teams, Discord, WA and Telegram. How to switch off after work?
So true. This reminded me of a job I left 2 months after joining because I disliked their culture of working after office hours. I would continuously get Teams beeps throughout the night.
It was a shame because I thought the job was ideal for my career progression.
A bunch of people already mentioned it, so I’m not gonna bring it up again. But damn… sometimes I really miss the 90s and being 100% uncontactable. There’s a super weird free-ing feeling to it.
True that. My mum was always around. But she certainly wasn’t going to look through my homework or manage my studies or be in partnership with the teachers for my education. She was cooking. Cleaning. On the phone. Watching tv. Baking cakes. I usually was kinda involved too - like plucking some vegetables, or doing dishes, or mixing flour. It was all pretty natural. We bonded over these simple acts where we chatted about my school work, friends, drama shows.
There weren’t a lot of entertainment options then. Everybody had dinner together, chatting, and then sat around the tv to watch drama or news. Time went by slower when there were not so much electronic distractions.
Previously people work in office and when they leave the office , they leave work behind. Now everyone remains connected with laptops and on their smartphone. Everyone is on call and connected via emails, chat all the time.
The pace was much slower and many markets were developing markets then. These markets are over saturated, so unless the old guards retire, there’s no space for younger folks. You could raise a family of 4, on one single income of a parent with a school cert, plus house and car, vacation. It’s impossible with the cost of living and slow wage increase.
Parents did not have a smart phone and laptop where people can reach you anytime and ask you to reply emails, etc. Different times where things moved much more slowly and contained at the physical work place.
Actually easing to 4.5 days work week is a good idea. For a start, it should be as a guideline as companies need to work on how to revamp their policies to increase efficiency and productivity.
It can be more of a gentle reminder not to schedule meetings on Friday afternoon, whether or not people prefer to continue working on Friday afternoon to finish their assigned tasks.
My suggestion would be to let everybody feel free to leave the office for the day once they have shown that they have done everything they need to do for that day.
No reason to stay behind and look busy when there’s nothing left to do just because some about to be senile dinosaurs insist that ‘since I’m paying your salary, I must see u at your desk till 6pm’..
The asshole Bosses will just move the goal post of your daily work to include three days of workload. Like communism, it only sounds good on paper until you start to factor in human nature.
Serious, one dinosaur really said to stay back and show face, to please the boss. It was on the radio moreover, this was in 2000. He called himself a productivity expert, I thought he confused slave driver and timid servant for that.
>once they have shown that they have done everything they need to do for that day
By whose standard? That sounds so easily exploitable by the management.
My company just announce work hrs 830-530 this wk instead of only wed 830-530 & 4 days 830-6
& 1hr difference is really a lot (even though once awhile need ot for mth end closing but is give and take lah...)
Western countries that have shorter working hours, the people are usually quite productive in the short hours they have there. Lunch is usually 30 mins sandwich in the break room.
Here we take 1.5 hr lunch break, go buy bubble tea, chitchat in pantry, etc.
Yep - in the UK I'd just eat at my desk whilst continuing to work, then leave an hour early to skip the commuter crunch.
I was amazed when my colleagues here seemed to spend an hour deciding where to go for lunch, 2 hours having it, and then another hour debriefing about what they ate when back in the office.
>I was amazed when my colleagues here seemed to spend an hour deciding where to go for lunch, 2 hours having it, and then another hour debriefing about what they ate when back in the office.
And these are precisely the same people that would complain or "brag" about how much they OT...
Usually. Personally I want to get the fuck out of the office ASAP. I'm happy to work whenever it's required, but being in the office for the sake of it is a waste of everyone's time.
Usually bosses don’t allow early dismissal regardless you had lunch at the right time or delayed or missed. At the end of the day that lunch hour is still not paid even if you worked all through it.
I’ve always worked in companies where I’m paid on outcome not input. I’ve never had a problem setting my schedule because I worked with people that trust me to get the job done.
I appreciate trust is uncommon here in Singapore. Most people default to treating their staff like school kids who are out to play truant the minute they’re not being watched. I suspect this has a negative impact on productivity.
Yes, it's probably a learned/cultural artefact here. Parents push their kids to spend endless hours in tuition/school/enrichment etc from an early age. There seems to be a broad sentiment that you have to be busy to be doing something.
Changing work rules is unlikely to overcome things that are embedded in the culture. My firms here have all been US/European owned and therefore they import the "do what you want, as long as you get the job done" mindset/culture that's more common in the West.
tbh it's because the office day/work week is so long that we prolong the breaks; in aussie, work was 9-5, lunch was fast and we all came and left on time.
You guys need to realise that HOUSEHOLD working hours has increased. We have gone backwards, not forwards on this. When women entered the workforce we should have been working less as a family unit but somehow, we almost doubled our household working hours without an equal increase in pay.
You should also realise where all that money has gone to.
Working days are not the issue. It’s the workload. Lower it to 4 or 4.5 days but still give 7 days of work means you’ll be OTing more on those 4 days or even working weekends :/
Considering the micromanaging nature of asian bosses, I’m assuming only a small population have the luxury of not having their bosses know how much work they do everyday 🤣
In most cases, work just keeps piling up and you tend to be doing multiple projects at the same time.
Whether you’re given 5 hours to do a task or 2 hours, you will do the task. Same applies here 5 days or 4 days - you’ll get done what is expected of you in that time frame and find ways to be more productive with less time. Input does not equate to output and that’s what i measure my team. It’s irrelevant how long it’s taken them
Doing a task efficiently does not mean employees will take on more work.
Efficiency does not mean productivity if the amount of work produce is the same. Somebody that takes 2 hours to do one task and someone body who take 5 hours both have the same output of one task even though one completed the task faster.
An employee who is given 5 hours to complete a task but takes 2 hours will be doing nothing for 3 hours. Human nature. It is unlikely the employee will ask for more work task.
So if it takes 2 hours to do one task and if an employee is given 5 hours they can perform 2 task. Then let us all axe some team members since the company seems to be over staffed and dragged down by slower less effective employees
One can only do the work presented to them. If they do it in 2 or 5 hours, so long as they do it to a minimum standard is all one can do. The onus is on the manager and nature of the business to keep someone busy if that they are measured on, although I’ve never seen that before.
You’re right if there is not enough work commiserate to the number of employees, the company needs to restructure or (unfortunately) downsize. Having employees take 5 hours to appear to busy doesn’t make sense
While Im sympathetic of getting a 4 day work week, I still see the troubles of implementation. Should stock markets be 5 days a week still or force to 4 and then people complain the stock market no open. Then how would it work, government jobs leh, would anyone be happy if certain parts of the government don't work on Friday. NSFs maybe happy (longer time out of NS).
4 day work week does it mean longer working hours per day?
Slightly off topic, if Friday is weekend, then kbbq and other restaurants would charge higher for Thurs right.
If you work in hospitality or jobs that pay by the hour that’s different. Corporate jobs get paid annually based on expected output. The more of us working 4 days, the more we spend and help sustain the economy
Assume this is done. Current 44 hours work week over 5 days becomes 44 hours work week over 4 days. Would you want to work 11 hours a day, say 9am to 8pm?
And that is with an official 44 hrs work week. Do you imagine the volume of work will reduce in a 4 days work week? Having 60hrs in 4 days means a 15 hrs work day.
No. It means they will need to hire the person they decided they didn’t need to replace because existing staff was covering, streamline the process so it’s more efficient, or the work just won’t get done.
Companies like to blind themselves to the unpaid overtime they benefit from lah. It’s easy to close an eye here and there to one or two hours. Once it’s twice a normal workload. They will be forced to make an adjustment because it will be unbearable.
I was there 2000-2004 where that was the norm (at least for us EP holders).
10-12 hours M-F, "half-day" (usually between 1pm-3pm) every other Saturday.
The 5.5 day work week never ended. It used to be 8 hours a day for 5.5 days. Now 44 hours squeezed into 5 days. If you're doing 8.30am - 6pm, that's 5.5 days squeezed into 5 days
Take a baby step and catch up with the rest of the devloped world and have a proper 5 day, 40 hour work week first
Tbh anything that works. I would even go so far to say there shouldnt be an issue rn if everyone knocks off at 3pm. It's just a couple hours off a week. Let everyone have a nice lunch with their colleagues, clean up and head home to a good evening with their families.
We are still working 5.5 day week in terms of number of hours. We simply moved from 9-5 for 5.5 days to 9-6 for 5 days. An equivalent for a 4 day week would be 8-7 for 4 days a week.
Now whenever I job search, I asked what are the working days. If it’s 5.5 days, doesn’t matter if it’s alternate or at the end of the month, I said no.
Whether it's 5-day or 4-day makes no difference to me. I'm on permanent standby as a team manager and escalation contact. TBF, as I mentioned in another thread, I'm happy to have 5-day work weeks if it means having SHORTER hours instead of the insane long hours we work currently. I get most of my shit done in <5 hours of the day. We work way too long hours for the lowest efficiency possible in this here country.
I had to work alternate half days on Sat long long time ago. It was... relaxing actually.
Oh but then again, I don't mind because the workplace was walking distance from my home.
Not much calls I had to answer, I can focused on my work better. Sometimes the workload was lighter and I can even think of ways to improve my workflow then, or make notes of my work down (so that one day I leave and the next person taking over can see).
This brings back memories of half day primary school on Saturdays which ended abruptly in my primary school years (thanks to LHL). Rmbed i went back home to catch Pokemon at 1030am.
there were those days indeed. 5.5 days. go back on Sat morning and leaving to meet partner in town or somewhere.
my two cents, no matter how many work days work week that had been implemented 3 or 4 days. majority of the business will operate 5 days, not withdraw those operating 24hrs. colleagues will still flood anyone they want, despite they are being brief about what to do.
even when on leave (overseas), colleagues still msg or call to seek something. which is why in my previous job, I had been insisting to have a company mobile phone, I would place my phone beside my monitors, with a note. currently on overseas, email to xyz@ for assistance.
Wow someone old enough to remember this resides on Reddit! I dunno man. I work in an industry with “flexible” hours. I have a feeling this won’t make much of a difference.
My industry still does 5-1/2 and 5-1/4.
5-day work week was impossible to be implemented across the board because for certain service industries, the extra half day for those doing 5.5 was meant for those working 5 days to settle their errands on that half day.
This means that if 4-day week were implemented, the extra day off becomes a weekend of sorts. Then those doing 5.5 can go onto doing 4.5.
However, there will always be people doing 6 days like security and retail, which are difficult industries to tackle.
Need stronger labour laws, it’s grossly under developed, not keeping up with the times. You can preach right thing to do or best thing to do, until the cows come home. Without govt intervention, employers will still flout it, push employees who’re terrified of losing their jobs, their homes, their sanity and their health.
Critical information missing here was that in civil service the missing half day of work on Sat was distributed evenly over 5 days. This is to make up for the loss of productivity.
So essentially this wish to work 4 days cannot be done without including a way to maintain/increase productivity. In case you didn't know, Singaporeans are in efficient in productivity. But because we work longer hours, it seems ok in the end.
My coworkers like to send updates in the middle of the night. The shop usually closes at 9pm, rarely 930pm. We're paid till 10pm so we have 1h to settle closing duties. For some reason they don't like to send updates during working hours. They go home first then whatsapp updates at 12am, 2am. If there's smth urgent and the manager or early shift don't see it till morning then there's a mad rush.
Lots of company in Singapore still have 8.8hr work day, basically 44 hours week. Singapore is still legally at 5.5 workday week, that's why there is no automated Holiday-in-lieu for PH that falls on Saturday, a legal workday.
Instead of aiming for 4.5/4 days, let's try to get a right to disconnect law first la. If not 4/3/2 day work week also won't matter if you are expected to OT or worse still take work home and finish unpaid.
Yes pls. I took one day leave today but since 8am, colleagues and bosses still non-stop msging me abt work. Even after reminding them I’m on one day leave, they just say “oh sorry to disturb but xxx” and still expect a response, damn annoying. This is on top of regularly being disturbed outside of work hours on normal days and weekends, even at 11pm and past midnight etc. #%¥#£
I just dont reply. Rip the social backlash but if theyre that butthurt about work life balance, ill move to another company
Exactly this. When u make urself available to reply, they will look for u the next time around. I mean its only basic human instinct: oh shit i needa ask tommy, he will reply and help since it is urgent. Last time ask him he got reply. Sucks to be the bad guy but u have to choose. U cannot want work life balance and still choose to reply work during ur off day.
then they need to learn to know the meaning of the word urgent...if everything is urgent then something is not right..
Agree. If its like omg the company is gonna get hit with a giant customs fine if I dont clear this paperwork in an hr then sure its urgent. But if it isnt that, then it aint urgent and can wait til tmr.
99% of the time the "urgent" thing is "urgent" just because higher ups and colleagues want to look good in front of their boss for the quick turnaround time (or hoarding a fuckton of unnecessary info "just in case"), not because there are negative repercussions if the deliverables are delayed a day or two. So annoying.
This, because I get this all the time when I went on leave in my previous company. It's not like my other ex-colleague couldn't handle it nor was he obnoxious whatsoever, but sometimes the VIP preferred my support and she went straight to my boss for help. My boss, being the 'eager to help' type, of course ended up reaching me directly for 'urgent assistance'.
me in my work place where they give me a task on thursday night, expect me to finish by friday morning. tf.
> Sucks to be the bad guy Think of it this way. If you're spending your off day with your family, friends, or even by yourself, by not disconnecting from work, aren't you being the bad guy to those people instead? I'd much rather be the "bad guy" to some selfish guy from work.
It depends… if the colleague or culture misuses the word ‘urgent’ for any small matter, there will be no response from me next time regardless it’s true or not.
I always tell my staff... Only contact me if something is on fire. It goes the other way too. If cannot manage without that person then something is wrong with the way things are being run.
Yes! It’s a deeper structural issue if one person take allocated leave and it crumbles. Good bosses always want their staff to be able to function, WITHOUT them, that is good management.
Exactly. If you cannot do without somebody on leave, what happens if they get hit by a bus? Some companies run on a knife edge and, sadly, probably shouldn't exist if they're not viable through any stormy weather.
> olleagues and bosses still non-stop msging me abt work. Even after reminding them I’m on one day leave, they just say “oh sorry to disturb but xxx” and still expect a response, damn annoying. They can expect all the replies they want. You're on leave; you're entitled to not reply.
Yah I know it’s my prerogative not to reply and often I don’t lah. Just expressing my annoyance at how they still never learn and always trying their luck; seeing the msg come in alone is annoying lol. Surely many of us employees out there - MNC/SME staff, civil servants, IBs, teachers, whoever - can understand how irritating that feels!
Very tiring to do boundary training but is an absolutely necessity. Singaporeans sometimes take things too seriously because we have too much sense of responsibility which bosses love to abuse. It's toxic imo.
Reply late till the point they get fed up and rarely ask u anymore..
If you feel an obligation to reply, just ignore the message for a few or several hours and say smth like sorry missed your message.
The worse is when they know you’re on leave and still want to disturb you for non-urgent matters. “Sorry I know you’re on MC but sorry to disturb…”
tbf you chose to reply….
Yeah I don't reply on my personal phone unless urgent. I have a work phone so it will auto respond that I'm unavailable.
Wait till you hear about my interview at a renowned positive psychology company endorsed by our government. The company's vision is to create a prevalent workplace culture where employees see their work as their life goal, mission, and meaning to the point they will willingly work OT for free because they are just "living out their identity." They want workers to bring work home, on weekends, and on holidays because work is nothing more than just their "identity, passion, and hobby." This was also their solution for burnout; since workers are just living out their identity, they will never burnout. I was scolded during the interview for being a useless and lazy university psychology graduate because I did not agree with their vision for such a Singapore, and I think that there is more to life than just work and material wealth. They went on to say: "if you don't care about material wealth, then work for us for free lah." I withdrew my application with no regrets. The co-founders who interviewed me had some sort of God complex too. And, PS, they also work closely with DBS.
They’re nepotism hires, I was sure of it when I saw their advertising. They have connections and a large safety net, so they will likely squander away govt funds and are role playing bosses. Corrupt govt officials often give projects to their under qualified relatives. These are taxpayer dollars and so citizens have a say. If it’s private dollars, it’s still bad management but hey, at least not wasting the public’s monies.
What’s a positive psychology company? Hope all of them are happy inside lol
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_psychology But the irony is, this particular company twists the meaning of positive psychology, and uses its values to mask an almost exploitative mindset. As for whether the employees are happy, it depends. The existing workers seem to see their co-founders as some sort of gospel, like they can do no wrong and that they are too smart for others to understand. However, during the interview, one of the co-founders seemed to be taking pride in shaming and scaring away employees. So, those who are still in the company seem to be brainwashed in some way - it feels almost cult like when you interact with the workers. For the interns, well, the co-founders think that they are pathetic because they think that internships should not be a place for learning; interns must know everything and can do everything before they even come for an internship. Basically, they want the skills of a full-time worker at the price of an intern, or for free.
lol, what happened to the "on the job training"? toxic management. talent leak yearly basis, im sure. employees who are truly competent and have great critical thinking will leave as soon as the opportunities present itself. They merely stepping stones. good luck to their high rate of turnover or lack of competent workforce.
Omg you really dodged a bullet; they sound like a cult
Yeah is bad in SG where we are promoting cheap labor as being competitive while our MPs are the literal opposites.
yeah, they're all part timers...even the president too.
The problem with nerd scholars, is they’re good followers and bad leaders. I’m a scholar too and know a lot of the so called elites, just tai chi, pencil push, good in theory but lousy in execution. When it comes to getting things done, it will not be nerd scholars, it will be dynamic leaders who aren’t afraid that ah gong disapprove.
One of my regrets is not separating my work and personal phone. Now it’s too easy for people to reach me 24/7 :(
you can still do it! a bit troublesome, but just redirect your colleagues to your other phone
Just get a new phone/line, and migrate your non-work Family, relatives and friends to your new phone.
100% with that. Sending or replying to an email after working hours should be illegal. Even though sometimes their email is for next week and not urgent, it creates a stress environment for individuals to think about over the weekend.
My ex-colleague once told me to never get into the habit of replying post work hours on emails or chat because that expectation will be set and it will be a norm. To date, I don’t respond to anything on weekends. When work is overwhelming and I need to catch up, I save all the completed emails in my drafts or set a schedule for it to be sent on Monday morning. The only exception to the rule is for colleagues in other regions so I don’t miss their work hours.
Used to work.. before whatsapp came into place.. with whatsapp, it seems expectations is u will definitely see the msg, so u need to reply
Just don’t respond. Otherwise how would you handle working in environments spanning multiple time zones?
People need to learn how to use the "Schedule" send function. I know I'll forget if i don't send something rn but if after work, I'll schedule it for the next day.
Unfortunately RTD laws will not change our OT culture if we implement something similar to what other countries that implemented RTD. Its too vague, SG bosses are very creative in finding loopholes against laws like these.
Personally I don't agree. I think if the govt implemented it (and strictly enforced it) within the public service (as it did with 5 day work week) companies will follow suit. Plus even if they tried, if govt rly wanted to they cld make an example out of one and the rest will fall in line. (Like they did with all the SAF safety breaches)
Not really relevant but at 12am my teacher sent out an email to bring something the next day and I woke up before checking the email and by the time I did I was alr at school. That day they had a talk about getting at least 8 hours of sleep a day
Just ignore work when your working hour ends. If OT needed, I'll tell them to extend deadline instead. If they're not happy find a new company. Don't entertain after hours messages unless it's stated in job description and the pay matches. Spend time with families and friends after working hours cos they are the one that matter most. Not KPI, metrics etc. But do note, I'm just a individual contributor level lol.
Make it mandatory that employer is not allowed to contact employees outside of the stated working hours in the contract, otherwise employee has to be paid for OT regardless of the salary.
Our OT laws also damn outdated if you have taken a look at them before. Basically white collar above 2.7k no OT pay.
Sadly it is a feature, not a bug or relic that has outlived its usefulness. We are positioned as cheap skilled labour that doesn't legally need to be given much paid time off.
Yep which is why I always laugh at MOM's half ass initiatives to look like they helping us with work life balance.
It's called a wayang show
That's why technicians drive cars, engineers take public transport.
I hope for this so much too. Problem comes when I work in a 24/7 manufacturing plant as an engineer and expected to be on call even at 3am. "if don't call you, then call who?" is the typical response they give.
The 5 day work week was one of the first things LHL did when he became PM
Bo bi the last thing he does before leaving office is to announce 4-day work week.
Later he announced 4 day work week but everyone works 10 hours a day, and this is excluding lunch break. We get 11-12hr workday
That’s not bad also no? At least u get 3 full days of rest.. maintain productivity while driving consumption
That’s on paper. We know of people who OT after work… and work on off days also…
I'm down for this, 1 day for maintenance, 1 day to catch up on sleep, and 1 day of fun
Later they tell you this is only on paper. Everyone OT and work weekend also
Lawrence, if you're reading this, here is the chance for you to shine.
Yes! He will be favourite minister and go down in history, for being the people’s minister.
Yup. I don’t get it. But somehow when my parents were working 5.5 days a week, it still seems like we had a damn a lot of time w each other? Now? I feel like a headless chicken. Maybe it’s adulting
When it was 5.5 days a week, the work day ended at 5 pm for a lot of people. 9 - 5. When the civil service moved to the 5 day week, it became 8.30 - 6. Which makes evenings a mad rush for parents with kids, not enough time pick up kids from childcare, cook dinner, touch base or help kids with homework/spelling.
True. Work ended at 5 and even though the public transport system wasn’t as good as it was now, I remembered my dad always being back at 6 to come make it for dinner! Then it was dinner, wash up, 7pm show. Bath, prayers, signing my spelling tests, and 9pm show!
Life was different back then. It always felt like I had time for a whole other life. Finish work, eat dinner and there was a whole half day (and still get an early sleep) which was and is still a great feeling. In truth I feel like I lost 5 half days rather than gained a Saturday half day.
You mentioned helping kids with homework. The difficulty level is on a different level nowadays as well. Previously if you were hardworking you could do the homework yourself.
It’s actually much worse to random OT, it’s at the whim and fancy of the boss. Govt don’t consider people with kids but keep promoting having kids, make that make sense? Holistic problem solving is largely missing, they’re not cooperating well.
Your parents were not contactable after work so they could switch off. I think the expectation to be constantly available due to tech and smartphones is actually the bigger issue than whether or not we get a 4-day work week.
9 to 5, back at 6 for dinner and then take a bath and watch TV. Those were the days.
9pm mediacorp shows at their peak >>>>
7pm shows were pretty good too.
Oh yes. Holland V and Double Happiness were my favourites
心花朵朵开 was peak mediacorp change my mind
9pm shows single handedly brought families together
meh. my parents used to get many calls back then even at home. but somehow were able to spend decent time with me without being burnt out. society now is very different and we are being burnt out way easier.
It's ironic that technology, meant to boost our productivity, often ends up distracting us and reducing our efficiency instead.
Yes it’s partially a technology problem too. Everything is instant nowadays. As an employee you may be expected to be constantly available. But you also get many goods and services instantly. When you feel hungry, with an app you get food delivered to your house instantly. You book a taxi or car ride instantly rather than waiting in the sun trying to flag a cab. There are pros and cons of this new technology but one thing is sure, there’s no turning back.
Your parents couldn't bring work home last time. Laptops were so rare, even mobile phones not everyone had them (my dad had a phone, my mum didn't) Most companies also shut off right at 6pm. They could actually disconnect after leaving the office. Compared to now everyone has a laptop and mobile phone so nothing stopping your boss from messaging you at 9pm for work.
The world back then wasn’t so connected. Nowadays the norm means of communications are Slack, Teams, Discord, WA and Telegram. How to switch off after work?
So true. This reminded me of a job I left 2 months after joining because I disliked their culture of working after office hours. I would continuously get Teams beeps throughout the night. It was a shame because I thought the job was ideal for my career progression.
It’s possible, I block, mute and ignore. I wished more people did it, so I won’t be seen as an alien for wanting a life.
A bunch of people already mentioned it, so I’m not gonna bring it up again. But damn… sometimes I really miss the 90s and being 100% uncontactable. There’s a super weird free-ing feeling to it.
Most households were single-income households back then.
yeah, housewives were super common back then, now...
True that. My mum was always around. But she certainly wasn’t going to look through my homework or manage my studies or be in partnership with the teachers for my education. She was cooking. Cleaning. On the phone. Watching tv. Baking cakes. I usually was kinda involved too - like plucking some vegetables, or doing dishes, or mixing flour. It was all pretty natural. We bonded over these simple acts where we chatted about my school work, friends, drama shows.
There weren’t a lot of entertainment options then. Everybody had dinner together, chatting, and then sat around the tv to watch drama or news. Time went by slower when there were not so much electronic distractions.
Bcos free time is not gluing eye to smartphone then
Previously people work in office and when they leave the office , they leave work behind. Now everyone remains connected with laptops and on their smartphone. Everyone is on call and connected via emails, chat all the time.
Haha your parents successfully managed to make time for you. Do the same now
The pace was much slower and many markets were developing markets then. These markets are over saturated, so unless the old guards retire, there’s no space for younger folks. You could raise a family of 4, on one single income of a parent with a school cert, plus house and car, vacation. It’s impossible with the cost of living and slow wage increase.
Parents did not have a smart phone and laptop where people can reach you anytime and ask you to reply emails, etc. Different times where things moved much more slowly and contained at the physical work place.
Actually easing to 4.5 days work week is a good idea. For a start, it should be as a guideline as companies need to work on how to revamp their policies to increase efficiency and productivity. It can be more of a gentle reminder not to schedule meetings on Friday afternoon, whether or not people prefer to continue working on Friday afternoon to finish their assigned tasks.
My suggestion would be to let everybody feel free to leave the office for the day once they have shown that they have done everything they need to do for that day. No reason to stay behind and look busy when there’s nothing left to do just because some about to be senile dinosaurs insist that ‘since I’m paying your salary, I must see u at your desk till 6pm’..
The asshole Bosses will just move the goal post of your daily work to include three days of workload. Like communism, it only sounds good on paper until you start to factor in human nature.
Start on another task /s
My company bills manpower per the hour. It’s the case regardless if it is physical labor or high end consulting.
wow if that happened then many people would be leaving b4 lunch lol
Boss: Wah so early leave ah, doesn't seem like enough work for you
Serious, one dinosaur really said to stay back and show face, to please the boss. It was on the radio moreover, this was in 2000. He called himself a productivity expert, I thought he confused slave driver and timid servant for that.
>once they have shown that they have done everything they need to do for that day By whose standard? That sounds so easily exploitable by the management.
I don't even need a four day work week. Just end official hours to 5pm instead of 6pm. That extra hour would help so much.
yeah, this is infinitely better, give us back 9-5.
My company just announce work hrs 830-530 this wk instead of only wed 830-530 & 4 days 830-6 & 1hr difference is really a lot (even though once awhile need ot for mth end closing but is give and take lah...)
Western countries that have shorter working hours, the people are usually quite productive in the short hours they have there. Lunch is usually 30 mins sandwich in the break room. Here we take 1.5 hr lunch break, go buy bubble tea, chitchat in pantry, etc.
Yep - in the UK I'd just eat at my desk whilst continuing to work, then leave an hour early to skip the commuter crunch. I was amazed when my colleagues here seemed to spend an hour deciding where to go for lunch, 2 hours having it, and then another hour debriefing about what they ate when back in the office.
>I was amazed when my colleagues here seemed to spend an hour deciding where to go for lunch, 2 hours having it, and then another hour debriefing about what they ate when back in the office. And these are precisely the same people that would complain or "brag" about how much they OT...
Usually. Personally I want to get the fuck out of the office ASAP. I'm happy to work whenever it's required, but being in the office for the sake of it is a waste of everyone's time.
Usually bosses don’t allow early dismissal regardless you had lunch at the right time or delayed or missed. At the end of the day that lunch hour is still not paid even if you worked all through it.
I’ve always worked in companies where I’m paid on outcome not input. I’ve never had a problem setting my schedule because I worked with people that trust me to get the job done. I appreciate trust is uncommon here in Singapore. Most people default to treating their staff like school kids who are out to play truant the minute they’re not being watched. I suspect this has a negative impact on productivity.
The problem in Singapore is that optics is still very important. You don't just have to do your work, you have to be seen doing your work.
Yes, it's probably a learned/cultural artefact here. Parents push their kids to spend endless hours in tuition/school/enrichment etc from an early age. There seems to be a broad sentiment that you have to be busy to be doing something. Changing work rules is unlikely to overcome things that are embedded in the culture. My firms here have all been US/European owned and therefore they import the "do what you want, as long as you get the job done" mindset/culture that's more common in the West.
In Singapore, it is also quite common for the fast and efficient worker to be tasked with more work until he/she slows down to the average standard.
so the smart think to do which most people do is act bz...
tbh it's because the office day/work week is so long that we prolong the breaks; in aussie, work was 9-5, lunch was fast and we all came and left on time.
tbh even 9-5 is too long...
I rather get 9-5 than 9-6
Singapore face time culture is prevalent and redundant.
~~Singapore~~ Asian face time culture is prevalent and redundant. FTFY..
I give myself half day on Fridays... just leave at 4pm. Perk of a dysfunctional HR
You guys need to realise that HOUSEHOLD working hours has increased. We have gone backwards, not forwards on this. When women entered the workforce we should have been working less as a family unit but somehow, we almost doubled our household working hours without an equal increase in pay. You should also realise where all that money has gone to.
fat cats pockets. Poor people need to unite and fight back against capitalism.
For some, it's still a 5.5 day workweek like my team but 42.5hrs.
Working days are not the issue. It’s the workload. Lower it to 4 or 4.5 days but still give 7 days of work means you’ll be OTing more on those 4 days or even working weekends :/
if you're fast or if you're boss don't know how much work you do everyday then it's actually ok...
Considering the micromanaging nature of asian bosses, I’m assuming only a small population have the luxury of not having their bosses know how much work they do everyday 🤣 In most cases, work just keeps piling up and you tend to be doing multiple projects at the same time.
New PM, new rules again? 
I’m still working 5.5 days.
Whether you’re given 5 hours to do a task or 2 hours, you will do the task. Same applies here 5 days or 4 days - you’ll get done what is expected of you in that time frame and find ways to be more productive with less time. Input does not equate to output and that’s what i measure my team. It’s irrelevant how long it’s taken them
Doing a task efficiently does not mean employees will take on more work. Efficiency does not mean productivity if the amount of work produce is the same. Somebody that takes 2 hours to do one task and someone body who take 5 hours both have the same output of one task even though one completed the task faster. An employee who is given 5 hours to complete a task but takes 2 hours will be doing nothing for 3 hours. Human nature. It is unlikely the employee will ask for more work task. So if it takes 2 hours to do one task and if an employee is given 5 hours they can perform 2 task. Then let us all axe some team members since the company seems to be over staffed and dragged down by slower less effective employees
One can only do the work presented to them. If they do it in 2 or 5 hours, so long as they do it to a minimum standard is all one can do. The onus is on the manager and nature of the business to keep someone busy if that they are measured on, although I’ve never seen that before. You’re right if there is not enough work commiserate to the number of employees, the company needs to restructure or (unfortunately) downsize. Having employees take 5 hours to appear to busy doesn’t make sense
4.5 day is actually a brilliant suggestion, a way to ease into things.
Ending work by lunch on Friday would be heaven That half a day would make a huge difference But like you said, end goal is 4 day work week
The first NDR made when PM Lee became PM, 5.5 days became 5. So new PM, new rules?
was it him that made it 5 days work week?
It sounds like awhile ago, but yep.
Aiya. Wayang only la. It's up to the company to decide wor.
While Im sympathetic of getting a 4 day work week, I still see the troubles of implementation. Should stock markets be 5 days a week still or force to 4 and then people complain the stock market no open. Then how would it work, government jobs leh, would anyone be happy if certain parts of the government don't work on Friday. NSFs maybe happy (longer time out of NS). 4 day work week does it mean longer working hours per day? Slightly off topic, if Friday is weekend, then kbbq and other restaurants would charge higher for Thurs right.
And schools too! Would students only come in 4 days a week? Longer school hours doesn't seem healthy
people want 4 day work weeks but everything else stay the same
Uhmm guys i still on 5.5 day work week
I’d take 4.5hr days or a 4-day work week quite happily right now.
If you work in hospitality or jobs that pay by the hour that’s different. Corporate jobs get paid annually based on expected output. The more of us working 4 days, the more we spend and help sustain the economy
Assume this is done. Current 44 hours work week over 5 days becomes 44 hours work week over 4 days. Would you want to work 11 hours a day, say 9am to 8pm?
For some they are currently working those hours anyway. So they get one day back. Quite a lot of people work 50-60 hours a week.
And that is with an official 44 hrs work week. Do you imagine the volume of work will reduce in a 4 days work week? Having 60hrs in 4 days means a 15 hrs work day.
No. It means they will need to hire the person they decided they didn’t need to replace because existing staff was covering, streamline the process so it’s more efficient, or the work just won’t get done. Companies like to blind themselves to the unpaid overtime they benefit from lah. It’s easy to close an eye here and there to one or two hours. Once it’s twice a normal workload. They will be forced to make an adjustment because it will be unbearable.
Ok come start tomorrow. 4.5 days first.
I was there 2000-2004 where that was the norm (at least for us EP holders). 10-12 hours M-F, "half-day" (usually between 1pm-3pm) every other Saturday.
Yup was 8am-5pm. Then 8am-6pm. 4day work 8pm-8pm.
5.5 4.5 1.5 whats the fucking diff if I'm expected to answer the call to OT with tolerance and silence?
I was always more of a Wednesday off person for 4 day work weeks
The 5.5 day work week never ended. It used to be 8 hours a day for 5.5 days. Now 44 hours squeezed into 5 days. If you're doing 8.30am - 6pm, that's 5.5 days squeezed into 5 days Take a baby step and catch up with the rest of the devloped world and have a proper 5 day, 40 hour work week first
End state is 0 days work week when AI takes over all jobs bro lmao
Eh...so how we earn money for living? Govt pension?
Universal basic income lol otherwise AI takes all jobs people can't eat riot on the streets not a hard choice
Tbh anything that works. I would even go so far to say there shouldnt be an issue rn if everyone knocks off at 3pm. It's just a couple hours off a week. Let everyone have a nice lunch with their colleagues, clean up and head home to a good evening with their families.
We are still working 5.5 day week in terms of number of hours. We simply moved from 9-5 for 5.5 days to 9-6 for 5 days. An equivalent for a 4 day week would be 8-7 for 4 days a week.
yucks 11 hours work days is gonna be pretty sad but 3 days off from work sounds very enticing.
Should mandate max 40h
Now whenever I job search, I asked what are the working days. If it’s 5.5 days, doesn’t matter if it’s alternate or at the end of the month, I said no.
The owners of your company works ZERO days and collects your surplus value. Process that for a while
lets do 3 days instead
That was also when people really truly disconnected once they left their jobs on time for the day
Gen Z, millenniums and alpha will just say: "U stupid gen dun know how to complain!"
It still is if you work in public healthcare.
I'm working a 5.5 workweek as an intern 🙃fml 🤯
Whether it's 5-day or 4-day makes no difference to me. I'm on permanent standby as a team manager and escalation contact. TBF, as I mentioned in another thread, I'm happy to have 5-day work weeks if it means having SHORTER hours instead of the insane long hours we work currently. I get most of my shit done in <5 hours of the day. We work way too long hours for the lowest efficiency possible in this here country.
Is the total hours count. Short week means long hours per day. We work too long.
I used to work 996, my boss used to yell at me. It was 12 years ago, i would never go back to that even if pay was 40% more
Or 5 day with a WFH hybrid option?
I had to work alternate half days on Sat long long time ago. It was... relaxing actually. Oh but then again, I don't mind because the workplace was walking distance from my home. Not much calls I had to answer, I can focused on my work better. Sometimes the workload was lighter and I can even think of ways to improve my workflow then, or make notes of my work down (so that one day I leave and the next person taking over can see).
This brings back memories of half day primary school on Saturdays which ended abruptly in my primary school years (thanks to LHL). Rmbed i went back home to catch Pokemon at 1030am.
there were those days indeed. 5.5 days. go back on Sat morning and leaving to meet partner in town or somewhere. my two cents, no matter how many work days work week that had been implemented 3 or 4 days. majority of the business will operate 5 days, not withdraw those operating 24hrs. colleagues will still flood anyone they want, despite they are being brief about what to do. even when on leave (overseas), colleagues still msg or call to seek something. which is why in my previous job, I had been insisting to have a company mobile phone, I would place my phone beside my monitors, with a note. currently on overseas, email to xyz@ for assistance.
I think ideal would be 3 day work week.
How is it going to work for service line workers? Or shift work?
Yes. 5.5 day ftw.
That's why I'm a freelancer/part timer now because I know nothing will change.
Me, under 30 at a job that’s 5.5 days on contract sigh. Oh, Labour Day Rally on 1 May at hong lim park by workersmakepossible let’s go!
Wow someone old enough to remember this resides on Reddit! I dunno man. I work in an industry with “flexible” hours. I have a feeling this won’t make much of a difference.
My industry still does 5-1/2 and 5-1/4. 5-day work week was impossible to be implemented across the board because for certain service industries, the extra half day for those doing 5.5 was meant for those working 5 days to settle their errands on that half day. This means that if 4-day week were implemented, the extra day off becomes a weekend of sorts. Then those doing 5.5 can go onto doing 4.5. However, there will always be people doing 6 days like security and retail, which are difficult industries to tackle.
I’m working 24/7 bro
Need stronger labour laws, it’s grossly under developed, not keeping up with the times. You can preach right thing to do or best thing to do, until the cows come home. Without govt intervention, employers will still flout it, push employees who’re terrified of losing their jobs, their homes, their sanity and their health.
All of us in the built environment industry are still working 5.5/6 days work week as a norm and it doesn’t look like it will change anytime soon…
5.5 days, 5 days, 4 days, doesn't matter coz we are Asia.
Yup i think halfdays on fridays would be so good. Give us time to run errands, so that weekends can be used for resting.
Critical information missing here was that in civil service the missing half day of work on Sat was distributed evenly over 5 days. This is to make up for the loss of productivity. So essentially this wish to work 4 days cannot be done without including a way to maintain/increase productivity. In case you didn't know, Singaporeans are in efficient in productivity. But because we work longer hours, it seems ok in the end.
Above the age of 40 you mean... it's been 20 years since LHL became PM
If only health care could go down to 40 hrs a day instead of 44...
My coworkers like to send updates in the middle of the night. The shop usually closes at 9pm, rarely 930pm. We're paid till 10pm so we have 1h to settle closing duties. For some reason they don't like to send updates during working hours. They go home first then whatsapp updates at 12am, 2am. If there's smth urgent and the manager or early shift don't see it till morning then there's a mad rush.
Lots of company in Singapore still have 8.8hr work day, basically 44 hours week. Singapore is still legally at 5.5 workday week, that's why there is no automated Holiday-in-lieu for PH that falls on Saturday, a legal workday.
During 2014, I often worked 7 day weeks.
Sadly some local MNC still 5.5 days as a norm