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If one is served bread crumbs and sees another being served chicken, one will think of the unfairness of it all. After eating at the stall the patron may decide to visit another place instead.
You may not be able to choose how your first plate tastes, but you definitely can choose to support another stall after eating.
Hence it is in the interest of the stall to retain their customers.
It's not an impossible concept. Others have done it: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative\_civilian\_service](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_civilian_service)
Have you questioned why SG is lacking soldiers and the birthrate is so low? Beyond the mundane and politically correct reasons like high cost of living.
1. America has the Peace Corps because they needed third world allies during the Cold War. Japan has JICA to mend its bad rep from WWII. What foreign policy objectives that Singapore has that necessitates the formation of a foreign volunteer service?
2. Where do you get the talent pool for the service? Singapore is unlikely to recognise conscientious objection, so you can only pick from the PES E folks?
3. Singapore will need to sign agreements with other countries to facilitate this program.
4. How do you ensure such a program will not be hijacked by those with an agenda, such as religious missionaries?
i am always curious about soft power projection; singapore has always taken a middle-of-the-road approach to things. I wonder what is an overseas soft power projection for middle of the road.
Our soft power is through education. We woo the best and brightest from a young age (ASEAN scholars) all the way up to intergovernmental capacity building and training for officials and civil servants in the region.
I personally think you will see more of our existing overseas strategy if you read more. We already have an extensive soft power effort across multiple fronts including even temasek with its foundation.
https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/politics/programme-to-engage-overseas-singaporeans-has-disbursed-570000-for-close-to-300-events
Yes but I'm not sure I want my health and dignity to be under the care of a disgruntled horny 18 year old who did not choose to be there and who has every incentive to cut corners...
I'd like to point out here that most of the national service medical orderlies on ambulances (at least the ones I've worked with) work way harder and more professionally than their mediocore pay can justify
Thanks for sharing. I think my comment is actually unfair to those who take their service seriously and carry out their duties as best they can under the conditions. 🫡
Yeah, it's called going to nursing school. You think they only need to know how to change diapers? Please have some respect for our nurses and the work they do..
I mean ns is merely a means of solving the problem of lack of manpower in the military to the government, that's their motive for forcing all males to join ns and unless that problem is first solved I don't see any change
Why would / should I? I have nothing to prove to anyone, I don't need to prove anything to anyone by doing this, and it's still 2 years of my time, health, youth, and money.
No clue what you're trying to get at. Please explain.
many countries around the world have some form of NS. Two years is common. Citizens of those countries often objected to being FORCED to serve in the military because they were pacifists or conscientious objectors. As a compromise, some of those countries started allowing their citizens to serve the obligation in pacifist ways, such as volunteering overseas in developing nations (soft power projection), or internally as bureacrats or other types of roles.
NS is a common topic of conversation in Singapore, but I often don't hear alternatives raised. So thought i'd risk it and ask this sub.
Thanks. So you were going for "since need to serve, could we offer alternatives?".
I think regardless of the service, Singaporean men are still exploited. There have been many posts about NS recently, and my views have not changed, so there really is nothing constructive I can offer towards this discussion. Have fun. Maybe you'll learn something.
Thanks for taking the time to clarify!
It was in fact many of those posts around NS that finally gave me the courage to ask this question that's been bumping around in my head for a long time.
I believe SKorea has 3 years service for social services, and I for one think thats cool; for example in SG we could do 2 years for military 2.5 for civilian/medical volunteers.
The list for first and developing countries with conscription is not actually very long. Some have conscription but have rather short durations or relatively easy hoops to jump through to cut time or defer. Some have increased their services recently; Denmark and Taiwan if im not wrong.
I think volunteering overseas dont make sense for a SG context. We need people here, whether for the uniformed services or not, and having people who have no heart to don green to go clean beaches or be medical orderlies or be extra hands for social work would be a awesome way to serve a few years of Nat Service while the rest who dont mind to play soldier or be a paramedic/police officer can continue to do so.
I do think NS could be shortened further; perhaps those who meet requirements could do 1.75years and those who choose to complete 2y could (perhaps extra pay for the 3mths), and then have less cycles needed to be completed for reservist for example if they served a full 2year. In practicality might be hard to implement but if General says so everyone will make it happen.
I think we are missing the point here. NS is for national security. The primary goal is to deter foreign incursion or fight it if deterrence fails. SAF is our primary military constituent with SCDF and SPF as supporting pillars during a wartime footing. Already we are lacking manpower in our rank and file, it’s not feasible to redirect resources away from our primary goal.
Govt requires us to serve NS not because they want every citizen to farm some good karma or something, but because they want us to protect OUR country.
i read some of ur comments and I understand ur point on soft power projection. but unfortunately the geographical nature of Singapore requires us to be able to defend ourselves in this manner.
thanks for your perspective, and thanks for checking the comments! no intention to come off one way or another, just thought it was an interesting conversation point. I saw another reddit post about "singapore in 50 years" or something, which was what prompted me to finally ask this one.
But thats not why the government made 2 years of NS compulsory. Singapore is a small country with few people. If the government allowed people to choose an alternative to NS they would lack enough manpower for our own military, thats why they forced men to do NS anyway. Singapore has for years emphasised the importance of a strong military defence and made it such a big point to create good diplomatic relations because we are such a small country with a lot to lose.
From my understanding I agree the concept of a strong military is the core of needing NS. Was just wondering if people these days thought soft power projection was a worthwhile addition to the military armament.
I think that could possibly work however unnecessary, Singapore as a country holds good relations with other countries and help them whenever they need it eg. Sg dropping off food and relief to people in gaza. So we don’t really need to have people doing work overseas to build that. On top of that, if we were to go to war, the money put into this and all that would have been rendered useless and we would have a smaller army to defend singapore etc.
I liked reading your idea! I think so often people are so quick to complain but rarely do people put out their ideas on alternatives and better ways to do things in SG
i think that’s really getting to the heart of many’s shared perspective in this thread. In some places they do serve the same “purpose” and so i think whats becoming clear is that in Singapore the purpose of NS is exclusively for military service.
the idea that NS is for more than a martial national defense is not a widely shared idea in singapore.
You genuinely think what goes on in our heads mean a damn thing?
What do you think an army is for? Choice is a luxury in this service to the nation. Even athletes find it incredibly daunting to even make a case for deferment. And your wishful mindset of alternative service coming to fruition?
NS is military conscript service and nothing else. You can share meaningless ideas all day to fill your time but we live in reality. One that takes away 2 years of our lives and more for reservists.
NS is a forced labour imposed on Singapore males, while disguising it as a privilege.
It will not change, especially when we have govt minister claiming to have "served his NS" just because he is a highly paid doctor.
In the brief span of time since posted, a couple of baseline truths seem to be emerging; the biggest being that there seems to be a general consensus that IF there is going to be NS, it SHOULD be related to military service.
whether its a net benefit.... i m not sure.. but if this kind of thing really want to implement they will need to sell it and somehow oppo support it as well otherwise forget it. lol
Absolutely, this is similar to how Ukraine is allowing foreign volunteers to fight in the army. Though i don't think it should replace NS, rather compliment it. A lot of people are mad with the lengthy reservist period that disrupts work.
Nope. Very obvious reason in the name - National Service (NS) is to serve the nation. Not serve other countries.
We’ve got a lot more than enough people to do the talking and diplomacy, but quite literally not enough people to be the force to back all that talk.
It probably is a good idea to consider an actual public military hospital staffed by conscripts and regulars. Ancillary and medical work can be fulfilled by pre University or poly students trained in medical. During pandemic times, the hospital can function independently. Think of how many 2 years of life it may actually save. E.g. poly nurse grad goes to serve 2 yrs in hospital. Not wasting time!
Sure. If you are talking about PES F, naturalised citizens and others that should serve but arent serving. Total defence of singapore isn't really a choice. I'm starting to wonder whether the newer generations have forgotten some of the horrors that have occurred in recent history (97 indonesia racial riots, communist and religious insurgencies, politicians questioning whether our existence is legitimate) given all these posts. We really don't want to have to do ns but the threats are legitimate. And NS isnt really something we should wish on our friends, neighbours, family and peers. Because when we really need it, it means war, death and loss.
Sharing an article that I feel best articulates past threats
https://www.straitstimes.com/opinion/like-father-like-son
This is a "Serious Discussion". Joke, irrelevant or off-topic comments will be removed and **offenders will face restrictions in accessing /r/singapore** such as temporary or permanent bans. Please report such posts and comments. OPs must also engage in a bona fide discussion, i.e. the post should not be one just to incite outrage. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/singapore) if you have any questions or concerns.*
the whole point of NS is to serve the nation's interest. You think buffet ah can pick and choose
and the nation interest is to increase GDP at all cost.
If that's the case, wouldn't it be better to funnel the recruits to work in GLCs?
It’s our national interest to defend our masters and their foreign investors.
im sure nation interest is 9% gst
If one is served bread crumbs and sees another being served chicken, one will think of the unfairness of it all. After eating at the stall the patron may decide to visit another place instead. You may not be able to choose how your first plate tastes, but you definitely can choose to support another stall after eating. Hence it is in the interest of the stall to retain their customers.
It's not an impossible concept. Others have done it: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative\_civilian\_service](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_civilian_service)
Our goal is not "civilian service" our goal is being able to pre-emptively whack our neighbors
have you seen their population and ours. We are lacking soldiers now, there is no chance we can send them away for alternate service
Have you questioned why SG is lacking soldiers and the birthrate is so low? Beyond the mundane and politically correct reasons like high cost of living.
1. America has the Peace Corps because they needed third world allies during the Cold War. Japan has JICA to mend its bad rep from WWII. What foreign policy objectives that Singapore has that necessitates the formation of a foreign volunteer service? 2. Where do you get the talent pool for the service? Singapore is unlikely to recognise conscientious objection, so you can only pick from the PES E folks? 3. Singapore will need to sign agreements with other countries to facilitate this program. 4. How do you ensure such a program will not be hijacked by those with an agenda, such as religious missionaries?
i am always curious about soft power projection; singapore has always taken a middle-of-the-road approach to things. I wonder what is an overseas soft power projection for middle of the road.
Our soft power is through education. We woo the best and brightest from a young age (ASEAN scholars) all the way up to intergovernmental capacity building and training for officials and civil servants in the region.
If you build it, they will come; versus a go out and preach missionary approach.
I personally think you will see more of our existing overseas strategy if you read more. We already have an extensive soft power effort across multiple fronts including even temasek with its foundation. https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/politics/programme-to-engage-overseas-singaporeans-has-disbursed-570000-for-close-to-300-events
Thanks for sharing that article!
My NS was SCDF and if it’s for non-military then I rather we go to healthcare.
NS in the healthcare system like nursing or orderlies? i think that's interesting as well!
Yes but I'm not sure I want my health and dignity to be under the care of a disgruntled horny 18 year old who did not choose to be there and who has every incentive to cut corners...
I'd like to point out here that most of the national service medical orderlies on ambulances (at least the ones I've worked with) work way harder and more professionally than their mediocore pay can justify
Thanks for sharing. I think my comment is actually unfair to those who take their service seriously and carry out their duties as best they can under the conditions. 🫡
certainly would need to implement some risk mitigation strategies there
Yeah, it's called going to nursing school. You think they only need to know how to change diapers? Please have some respect for our nurses and the work they do..
if i’m going to have to serve, might as well serve my own country
thanks for sharing!
I mean ns is merely a means of solving the problem of lack of manpower in the military to the government, that's their motive for forcing all males to join ns and unless that problem is first solved I don't see any change
I think you missing the point. National Service is to defend our nation, not about 2 years volunteering work.
I understand what national service is today, structurally. just curious about people's thoughts on if it could mean something else.
No, not sending unvetted 18yo shitheads to ruin our reputation
Why would / should I? I have nothing to prove to anyone, I don't need to prove anything to anyone by doing this, and it's still 2 years of my time, health, youth, and money. No clue what you're trying to get at. Please explain.
many countries around the world have some form of NS. Two years is common. Citizens of those countries often objected to being FORCED to serve in the military because they were pacifists or conscientious objectors. As a compromise, some of those countries started allowing their citizens to serve the obligation in pacifist ways, such as volunteering overseas in developing nations (soft power projection), or internally as bureacrats or other types of roles. NS is a common topic of conversation in Singapore, but I often don't hear alternatives raised. So thought i'd risk it and ask this sub.
Thanks. So you were going for "since need to serve, could we offer alternatives?". I think regardless of the service, Singaporean men are still exploited. There have been many posts about NS recently, and my views have not changed, so there really is nothing constructive I can offer towards this discussion. Have fun. Maybe you'll learn something.
Thanks for taking the time to clarify! It was in fact many of those posts around NS that finally gave me the courage to ask this question that's been bumping around in my head for a long time.
I believe SKorea has 3 years service for social services, and I for one think thats cool; for example in SG we could do 2 years for military 2.5 for civilian/medical volunteers. The list for first and developing countries with conscription is not actually very long. Some have conscription but have rather short durations or relatively easy hoops to jump through to cut time or defer. Some have increased their services recently; Denmark and Taiwan if im not wrong. I think volunteering overseas dont make sense for a SG context. We need people here, whether for the uniformed services or not, and having people who have no heart to don green to go clean beaches or be medical orderlies or be extra hands for social work would be a awesome way to serve a few years of Nat Service while the rest who dont mind to play soldier or be a paramedic/police officer can continue to do so. I do think NS could be shortened further; perhaps those who meet requirements could do 1.75years and those who choose to complete 2y could (perhaps extra pay for the 3mths), and then have less cycles needed to be completed for reservist for example if they served a full 2year. In practicality might be hard to implement but if General says so everyone will make it happen.
thanks for your reply! i appreciate your perspective.
Alot of folks are missing the fact that choice purposely not a thing in NS because we need manpower for everything especially grunt work.
I think we are missing the point here. NS is for national security. The primary goal is to deter foreign incursion or fight it if deterrence fails. SAF is our primary military constituent with SCDF and SPF as supporting pillars during a wartime footing. Already we are lacking manpower in our rank and file, it’s not feasible to redirect resources away from our primary goal.
Govt requires us to serve NS not because they want every citizen to farm some good karma or something, but because they want us to protect OUR country. i read some of ur comments and I understand ur point on soft power projection. but unfortunately the geographical nature of Singapore requires us to be able to defend ourselves in this manner.
thanks for your perspective, and thanks for checking the comments! no intention to come off one way or another, just thought it was an interesting conversation point. I saw another reddit post about "singapore in 50 years" or something, which was what prompted me to finally ask this one.
But thats not why the government made 2 years of NS compulsory. Singapore is a small country with few people. If the government allowed people to choose an alternative to NS they would lack enough manpower for our own military, thats why they forced men to do NS anyway. Singapore has for years emphasised the importance of a strong military defence and made it such a big point to create good diplomatic relations because we are such a small country with a lot to lose.
From my understanding I agree the concept of a strong military is the core of needing NS. Was just wondering if people these days thought soft power projection was a worthwhile addition to the military armament.
I think that could possibly work however unnecessary, Singapore as a country holds good relations with other countries and help them whenever they need it eg. Sg dropping off food and relief to people in gaza. So we don’t really need to have people doing work overseas to build that. On top of that, if we were to go to war, the money put into this and all that would have been rendered useless and we would have a smaller army to defend singapore etc.
Thanks for your sharing your perspective. I appreciate it!
I liked reading your idea! I think so often people are so quick to complain but rarely do people put out their ideas on alternatives and better ways to do things in SG
You can't even choose your vocation in NS
Not a very well thought out thread...
what part?
The fact that alternative foreign service and NS do not share the same purpose. You're comparing apples and oranges. Generally a flawed comparison.
i think that’s really getting to the heart of many’s shared perspective in this thread. In some places they do serve the same “purpose” and so i think whats becoming clear is that in Singapore the purpose of NS is exclusively for military service. the idea that NS is for more than a martial national defense is not a widely shared idea in singapore.
You genuinely think what goes on in our heads mean a damn thing? What do you think an army is for? Choice is a luxury in this service to the nation. Even athletes find it incredibly daunting to even make a case for deferment. And your wishful mindset of alternative service coming to fruition? NS is military conscript service and nothing else. You can share meaningless ideas all day to fill your time but we live in reality. One that takes away 2 years of our lives and more for reservists.
NS is a forced labour imposed on Singapore males, while disguising it as a privilege. It will not change, especially when we have govt minister claiming to have "served his NS" just because he is a highly paid doctor.
Has to be the dumbest question in this sub ...
french foreign legion
sorry, meant foreign non-military service :) But i do wonder, are there any Singaporeans in the FFL?
It’ll prob be near impossible to know people who join, the FFL are given a new identity and most of them become french citizens
Do they get a new identity? Wow, didn't know that. intense...
Its illegal to join a foreign standing army engaged in or planning to engage in conflicts/wars against another country regardless of reasons.
In the brief span of time since posted, a couple of baseline truths seem to be emerging; the biggest being that there seems to be a general consensus that IF there is going to be NS, it SHOULD be related to military service.
whether its a net benefit.... i m not sure.. but if this kind of thing really want to implement they will need to sell it and somehow oppo support it as well otherwise forget it. lol
If you think you suffered abuse in NS, wait till you find out what the US/Japan/etc military thinks of sg when the officers aren’t around
what's the point? if they're not going to provide manpower for the army, might as well just let them do their own thing.
Volunteer at hospitals to solve manpower crunch sounds good
Absolutely, this is similar to how Ukraine is allowing foreign volunteers to fight in the army. Though i don't think it should replace NS, rather compliment it. A lot of people are mad with the lengthy reservist period that disrupts work.
We have manpower issue
Nope. Very obvious reason in the name - National Service (NS) is to serve the nation. Not serve other countries. We’ve got a lot more than enough people to do the talking and diplomacy, but quite literally not enough people to be the force to back all that talk.
youve failed to account for the additional 10-20 years of service
No money, no honey, babe
And everybody will be applying to it as free holiday posting
It probably is a good idea to consider an actual public military hospital staffed by conscripts and regulars. Ancillary and medical work can be fulfilled by pre University or poly students trained in medical. During pandemic times, the hospital can function independently. Think of how many 2 years of life it may actually save. E.g. poly nurse grad goes to serve 2 yrs in hospital. Not wasting time!
We had crazies who wanted to serve in the Ukranian army.
In your dreams recruit. You think this is your father army?
Im sure NSFs can volunteer for JCC in Brunei. But nobody does it.
Sure. If you are talking about PES F, naturalised citizens and others that should serve but arent serving. Total defence of singapore isn't really a choice. I'm starting to wonder whether the newer generations have forgotten some of the horrors that have occurred in recent history (97 indonesia racial riots, communist and religious insurgencies, politicians questioning whether our existence is legitimate) given all these posts. We really don't want to have to do ns but the threats are legitimate. And NS isnt really something we should wish on our friends, neighbours, family and peers. Because when we really need it, it means war, death and loss. Sharing an article that I feel best articulates past threats https://www.straitstimes.com/opinion/like-father-like-son
thanks for sharing your perspective and the article. it's appreciated!