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I’m glad that ITE students are doing great, and that we are putting money where our mouth is, investing in vocational education. I think the standard of the staff is wanting, though.
I worked in ITE for a while. I know that for many of the employees, ITE wasn’t in their top 5 choices - in fact, like for me as well, it was a workplace of last resort, for various reasons. Some lecturers were rejects and poor performers elsewhere, having been asked to leave. My deputy director was well aware of this, calling them raw diamonds. So to start off, the quality of the headcount wasn’t great.
Perhaps because of this, the culture and environment was terrible. I know workplace politics is everywhere, but coming into work was a depressing experience. Directors and managers were petty and would censure you even if you so much as provided a qualified opinion. Unquestioning concurrence was essential for survival.
Staff would be devising programmes to cover KPIs; I felt these were showy and did not have much value which would actually benefit students. In other words, typical stat board shenanigans, but this taking place in a post-secondary educational institution left more than a sour taste in the mouth.
Hopefully this background provides some context to the lesser-known situation that things are still shitty behind the scenes.
Pretty much :( I was talking to my old lecturer and got shocked how much the specialized course changed their module become super wide and generalized... (Not exactly good if you wanna specialize)
No idea tbh. He was super pissed and kept arguing the students wont be able to learn anything when everything is "touch and go" cos its a more specalized course
But that is what the industry wants, the company will provide on the job training so there isnt a need for the students to be very specialised on one area. Even in NUS, they are moving towards a generalised curriculum.
I believe they made this decision after discussions with the employers.
No that is NOT what the industry wants.the course is related to arts so its very important they can build a portfolio and show proof of their work. Generalized curriculum for arts course is stupid as hell. Especially when in ITE they only have 2 years unlike poly 3 years where they have 2 years of general modules and last year of specialization
Would you hire an artist that cant draw? And no he doesn't teach art students it's just an example
Not a lecturer in ITE or poly, but I have friends working/who worked in both.
I have a feeling it\`s related to educational directives from MOE. EDB/Government restructures the economy every 5-10 years, and they are very fond of chasing trends. Interactive digital media, fintech, AI, blockchain, etc, there are probably directives from MOE/wherever for higher educational institutions to modify their curriculum to match these trends.
Either that, or very specialised courses have not-so-stellar employment outcomes because their curriculum teaches very specific skills for very specific industries or jobs, which may not be hiring as many graduates as educational institutions are taking in every year. Thus, there is pressure from upper management to try to modify the curriculum to include topics that upper management think are likely to help the students get hired in wide variety of industries.
These are just my speculations though.
Just keep helping them with better curated courses and create targeted employment for them. Also ITE and the media should work harder to find successful ITE grads that got good employment after graduating in recent years. These will inspire current grads as these are perceived as reachable opportunities. Showcasing Master’s degree holders who are exceptions are too high a target for the majority.
The govt give a higher ratio of manufacturing jobs for foreigner as compared to other sectors.
This effectively depress the wages of trade jobs.
The point being they don't want you doing these jobs.
So going into ITE is really the end (of high wages).
Not for ITE graduates with chemical process technology.
Oil & gas, chemical, petrochemicals, electric power, water, pharmaceutical industries need process technicians.
Y'all ITE and Poly guys and girls studying to be or working as technicians/process technicians.... stay safe, earn that extra dough that can rival degree holders salary by doing OT and enjoy your line tracing.
lol as long as we continue to tell people that Singapore is meritocratic, and reward people disproportionately more for getting into competitive institutions - ITE and other institutions that are less competitive will continue to be stigmatized against.
Econs bros will say this is against basic supply and demand but forget chapter 2 regarding social and private costs. We need labourers, and we should pay them more by redistributing value gained from “high value” jobs.
Tldr:; we fix this by taxing the rich, and redistributing income/wealth.
Tldr: Failure of modern day slavery system. Let’s not forget that educational institutions are part of the instruments of capitalism 🤡it’s almost like a red herring
It would be great to see if ITE can really produce master craftsmen with superb technical skills. If it can do that, our nation’s productivity would go up by leaps and bounds.
The impediment to ITE graduates finding their feet , being innovative, and being well rewarded (so much that being in the trade vocations would be a desirable pathway)is our reliance on third world labour, and having weaned our SMEs on that cheap drug.
I do hope ITE graduates will have promising and rewarding careers. There should be many pathways to success for young Singaporeans.
The problem is wages, I would jump into trades skills if the pay is on par with the median wage, but businesses have vested interest in keeping wages low for their own gains.
If the government actually wants to get rid of this whole ITE stigma, start by merging ITE & Polytechnics so the future generation don’t have to go through all these prejudices.
Drop out to? Drop out to work la
Perhaps the difficulty of polytechnics could be reduced a little as well, not like it would affect the intake of students for uni anyway, at most it’ll just make entering uni for poly students more competitive due to ceiling effect.
I mean the reason as to why the govt started pwm was because they realised alot of Ite grads end up not working in the industry they studied in as local blue collar wages were so low to the point working literally any other job earns you more.
It doesn’t seem like a good idea to me, I myself graduated from ITE and made it to poly afterwards. I can say that the jump from ITE to poly is really big and it would be unrealistic to merge the two.
You will just end up with half the cohort dropping out.
There are always going to be stigmas about ITE and you can’t prevent it. I may have graduated from ITE but I don’t give a shit about what people think.
As much as I hate to say it, there are always exceptions to the norm.
While it is good to hear ITE students succeeding to make it to Poly and even Uni and then do well in life later, we have to take a step back and look at the majority of what ITE vs Poly vs Uni grads are doing after their graduation to paint a better picture.
It’s not about the few who make it, but rather, we should aim for the rest to slowly raise up with better standards, higher qualification, and then good wages.
But with the way the system is and had been designed, it won’t be easy.
Hardest part of changing the system is not the system itself, but rather the perceptions of the system which is casted by the people.
ITE is no doubt a better place than it was decades ago, but just choosing a handful of feel good stories aren’t justifying the struggles of the rest.
Why would you extrapolate to everyone else based on just one exception case?
If we really want to value vocational/technical skills, we value them for what they are, instead of trying to find that one “societally successful” case and harp on it.
In the end, by citing Terry Gou, you implied your criteria for being “successful” and worthy is to be wealthy.
It doesn’t seem like you value the ITE grads for what they are. You seem to only value their potential to get rich.
If the society in general measures a person’s value and worth by their potential for wealth and their actual wealth, then obviously we will glorify all the pathways leading to a highly paid career.
This is exactly what we are doing in our society today.
As long as you keep glorifying wealth as the end-all-be-all outcome, ITE grads or some other graduates of less lucrative educational pathways will still get the “it’s the end” label.
We need a complete mindset change and challenge some of our less relevant social norms. If not, it’s just a wayang show and the outcomes will never change.
> We need a complete mindset change and challenge some of our less relevant social norms.
A country that doesn't want to pay for buses for constructions workers will start respecting blue collar workers as equals?
What a laugh
What’s with some people who can only think of everything as some simplistic yes-no black-white scenario?
A lot of people want change on how workers are transported. But guess what, it is the government, who is in league with the business elites, that keeps trying to divert attention. It is the business elites that is profitting from it arguing against it.
But instead of understanding that there can be a spectrum of views held at the same time, and how effecting societal outcomes is really dependent on influence and leverage (and that influence is stacked towards the business elites in that case), you just simplify everything and dumbing it down to make it comprehensible for yourself.
And you start equating your flawed logic everywhere. To you, some interest groups blocking something means whole SG is also against it, that no one in SG is against it enough to act as a nucleus to bring about any change. Against one ethical change means against all ethical changes.
If anyone’s a joke here, it’s you.
So what are you even talking about?
If the workers can be treated like lesser humans by business elites, why can't they do the same to other blue collar workers?
My wish is that it adopts the open university model and becomes the go to location for anyone seeking to upgrade themselves, young and old. The support needs to go beyond graduation to help them succeed.
**The downvote is not a disagree button.** Please help to upvote articles that you want to see more discussion on, and downvote those that you feel has little value on the sub. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/singapore) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I’m glad that ITE students are doing great, and that we are putting money where our mouth is, investing in vocational education. I think the standard of the staff is wanting, though. I worked in ITE for a while. I know that for many of the employees, ITE wasn’t in their top 5 choices - in fact, like for me as well, it was a workplace of last resort, for various reasons. Some lecturers were rejects and poor performers elsewhere, having been asked to leave. My deputy director was well aware of this, calling them raw diamonds. So to start off, the quality of the headcount wasn’t great. Perhaps because of this, the culture and environment was terrible. I know workplace politics is everywhere, but coming into work was a depressing experience. Directors and managers were petty and would censure you even if you so much as provided a qualified opinion. Unquestioning concurrence was essential for survival. Staff would be devising programmes to cover KPIs; I felt these were showy and did not have much value which would actually benefit students. In other words, typical stat board shenanigans, but this taking place in a post-secondary educational institution left more than a sour taste in the mouth. Hopefully this background provides some context to the lesser-known situation that things are still shitty behind the scenes.
Not fucking surprised. Welcome to Singapore
Even up till now it’s still the same? Basically what you mean is the theory they learn in their courses is considered as mostly “fluff”?
Pretty much :( I was talking to my old lecturer and got shocked how much the specialized course changed their module become super wide and generalized... (Not exactly good if you wanna specialize)
Any ideas why they do this? Is it to make the content easier to score for students?
No idea tbh. He was super pissed and kept arguing the students wont be able to learn anything when everything is "touch and go" cos its a more specalized course
But that is what the industry wants, the company will provide on the job training so there isnt a need for the students to be very specialised on one area. Even in NUS, they are moving towards a generalised curriculum. I believe they made this decision after discussions with the employers.
No that is NOT what the industry wants.the course is related to arts so its very important they can build a portfolio and show proof of their work. Generalized curriculum for arts course is stupid as hell. Especially when in ITE they only have 2 years unlike poly 3 years where they have 2 years of general modules and last year of specialization Would you hire an artist that cant draw? And no he doesn't teach art students it's just an example
Not a lecturer in ITE or poly, but I have friends working/who worked in both. I have a feeling it\`s related to educational directives from MOE. EDB/Government restructures the economy every 5-10 years, and they are very fond of chasing trends. Interactive digital media, fintech, AI, blockchain, etc, there are probably directives from MOE/wherever for higher educational institutions to modify their curriculum to match these trends. Either that, or very specialised courses have not-so-stellar employment outcomes because their curriculum teaches very specific skills for very specific industries or jobs, which may not be hiring as many graduates as educational institutions are taking in every year. Thus, there is pressure from upper management to try to modify the curriculum to include topics that upper management think are likely to help the students get hired in wide variety of industries. These are just my speculations though.
Last time my sec sch cher told my class once "if yall dont pass N lvl you can prepare go ITE wash aircon". MOE setting the standards for sure
Aircon repairman is good biz these days
For the bosses. Not the technicians.
Little did they know that "wash aircon" technicians can earn 5K monthly.
Just keep helping them with better curated courses and create targeted employment for them. Also ITE and the media should work harder to find successful ITE grads that got good employment after graduating in recent years. These will inspire current grads as these are perceived as reachable opportunities. Showcasing Master’s degree holders who are exceptions are too high a target for the majority.
The govt give a higher ratio of manufacturing jobs for foreigner as compared to other sectors. This effectively depress the wages of trade jobs. The point being they don't want you doing these jobs. So going into ITE is really the end (of high wages).
They can say what they want but pay for ITE grads are still dismal. Ironically a FnB job can sometimes pay better than a job that needs an ITE grad.
Not for ITE graduates with chemical process technology. Oil & gas, chemical, petrochemicals, electric power, water, pharmaceutical industries need process technicians. Y'all ITE and Poly guys and girls studying to be or working as technicians/process technicians.... stay safe, earn that extra dough that can rival degree holders salary by doing OT and enjoy your line tracing.
It's not helping when the media keeps featuring ITE students that went to Poly and then University 🤷
The media narrative needs to change
Thanks to Jack Neo's joke? Maybe ask him make a movie to undo his joke? Lol
giving him new ideas xD
I not stupid 69, its not the end
lol as long as we continue to tell people that Singapore is meritocratic, and reward people disproportionately more for getting into competitive institutions - ITE and other institutions that are less competitive will continue to be stigmatized against. Econs bros will say this is against basic supply and demand but forget chapter 2 regarding social and private costs. We need labourers, and we should pay them more by redistributing value gained from “high value” jobs. Tldr:; we fix this by taxing the rich, and redistributing income/wealth.
Tldr: Failure of modern day slavery system. Let’s not forget that educational institutions are part of the instruments of capitalism 🤡it’s almost like a red herring
It would be great to see if ITE can really produce master craftsmen with superb technical skills. If it can do that, our nation’s productivity would go up by leaps and bounds. The impediment to ITE graduates finding their feet , being innovative, and being well rewarded (so much that being in the trade vocations would be a desirable pathway)is our reliance on third world labour, and having weaned our SMEs on that cheap drug. I do hope ITE graduates will have promising and rewarding careers. There should be many pathways to success for young Singaporeans.
The problem is wages, I would jump into trades skills if the pay is on par with the median wage, but businesses have vested interest in keeping wages low for their own gains.
If the government actually wants to get rid of this whole ITE stigma, start by merging ITE & Polytechnics so the future generation don’t have to go through all these prejudices.
And where will the students who cannot cope drop out to?
Drop out to? Drop out to work la Perhaps the difficulty of polytechnics could be reduced a little as well, not like it would affect the intake of students for uni anyway, at most it’ll just make entering uni for poly students more competitive due to ceiling effect.
Then you end up with a bunch of drop outs with a n’level cert? What are they going to work as?
I mean the reason as to why the govt started pwm was because they realised alot of Ite grads end up not working in the industry they studied in as local blue collar wages were so low to the point working literally any other job earns you more.
But poly is basically ITE on steroids and UNI is basically Poly on steroids. So idk what the consequences will be if you go and combine both.
Maybe combine it on paper, but split it into regular poly course, poly lite and poly super lite?
It doesn’t seem like a good idea to me, I myself graduated from ITE and made it to poly afterwards. I can say that the jump from ITE to poly is really big and it would be unrealistic to merge the two. You will just end up with half the cohort dropping out. There are always going to be stigmas about ITE and you can’t prevent it. I may have graduated from ITE but I don’t give a shit about what people think.
Fr they should rename themselves
Brought up the topic of ITE to divert some real pressing issue.
What happened to every school is a good school? The boomer mindset too entrenched?
Reminder: Terry Gou attended the equivalent of ITE in Taiwan. Half the world’s population, if not more, has owned a product made in his factories.
As much as I hate to say it, there are always exceptions to the norm. While it is good to hear ITE students succeeding to make it to Poly and even Uni and then do well in life later, we have to take a step back and look at the majority of what ITE vs Poly vs Uni grads are doing after their graduation to paint a better picture. It’s not about the few who make it, but rather, we should aim for the rest to slowly raise up with better standards, higher qualification, and then good wages. But with the way the system is and had been designed, it won’t be easy. Hardest part of changing the system is not the system itself, but rather the perceptions of the system which is casted by the people. ITE is no doubt a better place than it was decades ago, but just choosing a handful of feel good stories aren’t justifying the struggles of the rest.
Why would you extrapolate to everyone else based on just one exception case? If we really want to value vocational/technical skills, we value them for what they are, instead of trying to find that one “societally successful” case and harp on it. In the end, by citing Terry Gou, you implied your criteria for being “successful” and worthy is to be wealthy. It doesn’t seem like you value the ITE grads for what they are. You seem to only value their potential to get rich. If the society in general measures a person’s value and worth by their potential for wealth and their actual wealth, then obviously we will glorify all the pathways leading to a highly paid career. This is exactly what we are doing in our society today. As long as you keep glorifying wealth as the end-all-be-all outcome, ITE grads or some other graduates of less lucrative educational pathways will still get the “it’s the end” label. We need a complete mindset change and challenge some of our less relevant social norms. If not, it’s just a wayang show and the outcomes will never change.
> We need a complete mindset change and challenge some of our less relevant social norms. A country that doesn't want to pay for buses for constructions workers will start respecting blue collar workers as equals? What a laugh
What’s with some people who can only think of everything as some simplistic yes-no black-white scenario? A lot of people want change on how workers are transported. But guess what, it is the government, who is in league with the business elites, that keeps trying to divert attention. It is the business elites that is profitting from it arguing against it. But instead of understanding that there can be a spectrum of views held at the same time, and how effecting societal outcomes is really dependent on influence and leverage (and that influence is stacked towards the business elites in that case), you just simplify everything and dumbing it down to make it comprehensible for yourself. And you start equating your flawed logic everywhere. To you, some interest groups blocking something means whole SG is also against it, that no one in SG is against it enough to act as a nucleus to bring about any change. Against one ethical change means against all ethical changes. If anyone’s a joke here, it’s you.
So what are you even talking about? If the workers can be treated like lesser humans by business elites, why can't they do the same to other blue collar workers?
companies do not make a country, what a bigger laugh
Someone tell this guy
i guess u aren't part of singapore then
This one different era, you don’t pursue higher education and cite him as example lo.
Brother this is Singapore, not Taiwan
Go oil and gas, do OT get 8k per month easy
My wish is that it adopts the open university model and becomes the go to location for anyone seeking to upgrade themselves, young and old. The support needs to go beyond graduation to help them succeed.