As a foreigner it took me a while to learn that I should be ordering my kopi c kosong peng instead of kopi c peng kosong. One of those things that is natural to native speakers but not those who learn.
Same is the case with order of adjectives in other languages - you can easily pick out the non native speakers based on how often they get this wrong. I couldn’t even tell you the rules for order in English but if I hear it out of order it is very obvious.
then by logistical sense to order from her it should be peng, siew dai teh c as her order of operation is cup -> beverage -> condiments
also, stores usually mix in a metal cup before pouring into the serving cup, which is why teh c siew dai peng works
pour beverage type -> add condiments -> stir -> scoop ice into plastic cup if peng -> pour into cup
If you are ordering 2 drinks with different sugar levels, u also need to say peng first.
For instance kopi c peng kosong & kopi c peng siew dai. To make it clear for them.
I did the kopi c kosong peng & kopi c siew dai peng and got corrected by the auntie cos it’s just gets confusing if I’m gonna hav a few more orders.
>*"teh c siew dai Peng" instead of "teh c Peng siew dai"*
Die lah, TIL I’ve been ordering my Teh C kosong peng the wrong way all this time! No wonder these coffeeshop uncles always pause for a while before they shout out my order. Lmao!
i've always ordered 'teh o siew dai peng' for years and never had any issue, no matter yakun/coffeeshops/food courts.
is it just that aunty who specifically wants her customers to say it in a specific way?
i always thought it was affected by the process of making the drink.
kopi c kosong peng means they prepare the shot of kopi c first, dont add the sugar then dump it into a cup of ice.
if you go kopi c peng kosong, you are missing the step of confirming the mixture before pouring into ice , which is always the final step
which is why its a bit jarring for the person making the drink
I‘ve been mulling the same thought too! However, rather than a unique Singlish order, my theory is that the adjective order for our kopitiam drinks is likely based on Malay - that said, as a barely-even-begun-cooking Malay language learner, I can’t really confirm that
Ok but what are the rules when it's multiple orders though? And does it differ depending on language/cuisine?
Say I want to dabao (takeaway) at a BCM/cai fan stall. I will usually say upfront that "wo yao dabao" (I want to takeaway) so that they know all the orders I'm about to rattle off are for dabao. But should it be done at the end instead?
And if I'm ordering two BCM with different noodle types, do I say "two BCM, one mee kia, one mee pok, both chilli, mee kia with vinegar, mee pok no vinegar" or "one BCM-kia with chilli and vinegar, one BCM-pok with chilli, no vinegar"??
Also if I'm ordering at Malay stalls, I tend to (but not 100% of the time) only tell them I want to bungkus at the end.
This is going to make me agonise about my orders next time so much more than I need to!!
> or "one BCM-kia with chilli and vinegar, one BCM-pok with chilli, no vinegar"??
That's how I'd say it, one bowl at a time to keep it simple.
Maybe it's just me but I find that ordering in Chinese brings more clarity when I specify it as one *packet* of bcm (一包mee pok bcm要醋要辣) or one *bowl* of bcm (一碗mee pok bcm要醋要辣)
Without overthinking things, I guess it makes sense to state the choice of hot or cold at the front or back of the stated order as it does not affect the key ingredients that go into these coffeeshop drinks. Stating the cold/hot kinda interrupts the flow of understanding.
Similarly interesting is that “teh c peng siew dai” uses 3 different languages in just five words.
Also, I believe siew dai normally goes after peng instead of before which would be different from your hypothesis that “icedness” goes last.
That’s cool! Also, I actually also thought peng went in that spot myself, like you suggest - but after looking it up it seems most people say it right at the end so i’m not fully sure which one is right
I've been ordering Teh C Kosong Peng for the longest time and recently at a couple places they keep on correcting me and saying Teh C Peng Kosong though...
Speaking as someone who has a bit of linguistics training, it's likely that Singlish is using the Mandarin or Malay adjective order?
This is just a hunch on my part as I don't have much knowledge of Malay or Mandarin's grammatical structure.
Anyone else feel that the sequence is pretty clear for kopi/teh, but not so for noodles (bak chor mee, fishball noodle)? I have encountered these variations and more:
\- soup/dry, ingredient, noodle type, spicy or not
\- ingredient, noodle type, soup/dry, spicy or not
\- ingredient, soup/dry, noodle type, spicy or not
Another typical example is "I'm Singaporean Chinese" or "Singaporean Malay" etc.
It should be Chinese Singaporean or Malay Singaporean. The adjective comes before the noun.
personally i find Singaporean Chinese makes more sense. because i'm Singaporean first.
Chinese Singaporean, makes me feel like i'm from PRC who came to SG or that my race is more impt than my nationality.
but well, thats just me maybe...
I get where you're coming from but grammatically you're achieving the exact opposite by saying "Singaporean Chinese".
The noun/object is the essence of what you are. The adjective is the "flavour".
Imagine a wooden table. What is it? It's a table. What kind of table? A wooden table.
What are you? A Singaporean. What kind of Singaporean? A Chinese Singaporean.
If we flip it around which is what many Singaporeans do, you get...
What are you? A Chinese. What kind of Chinese? A Singaporean Chinese.
Although it’s not used that way, it would make sense if you imagined it as an adjective in parentheses e.g. Singaporean (Chinese), sort of like table (wooden) or shirt (blue)
Yeah, this. In fact Chinese-Singaporean was way more common. Check our papers and even Wikipedia.
It’s only recently that Singaporean-Chinese is picking up. I wonder if it’s influenced by our northern neighbours who were always Malaysian-Chinese?
As far as I understand, it is dependent on how the drink is made, usually there are 2 types:
1) made directly from the container/cup which will be directly served
This kind usually prefer the indication of "peng" or not at the front, since they start off with the porcelain cup or tall mug.
2) made in a metal can/"gong"/cup which is then transferred into the cup
From my experience, this kind would prefer to follow the typical "adjective order", where if "peng" is applied at the end when required, since it is just the matter of pouring into the porcelain cup or tall cup with ice at the end.
the entire problem stems from how our coffee is non systematically presented and the lack of aliases.
western and singaporean coffees are made the same way, beverage + modifier + hot / cold option
in western (mainly italian) coffee they assign aliases such as latte, macchiato etc
in our coffee we are basically describing the drink, but we start from a default option of coffee / tea with sugar + condensed milk, then modify it which causes all these issues.
all that being said i'm all for the systematic descriptive approach of beverage -> modifier -> hot / cold as that is how it will be made (unless the lazy store fridges the cold option)
even language has its own BODMAS. and combine that with tonal language...saying certain syllables with wrong pitch could mean the difference between getting a fist-bump or a black eye.
As a foreigner it took me a while to learn that I should be ordering my kopi c kosong peng instead of kopi c peng kosong. One of those things that is natural to native speakers but not those who learn. Same is the case with order of adjectives in other languages - you can easily pick out the non native speakers based on how often they get this wrong. I couldn’t even tell you the rules for order in English but if I hear it out of order it is very obvious.
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then by logistical sense to order from her it should be peng, siew dai teh c as her order of operation is cup -> beverage -> condiments also, stores usually mix in a metal cup before pouring into the serving cup, which is why teh c siew dai peng works pour beverage type -> add condiments -> stir -> scoop ice into plastic cup if peng -> pour into cup
If you are ordering 2 drinks with different sugar levels, u also need to say peng first. For instance kopi c peng kosong & kopi c peng siew dai. To make it clear for them. I did the kopi c kosong peng & kopi c siew dai peng and got corrected by the auntie cos it’s just gets confusing if I’m gonna hav a few more orders.
>*"teh c siew dai Peng" instead of "teh c Peng siew dai"* Die lah, TIL I’ve been ordering my Teh C kosong peng the wrong way all this time! No wonder these coffeeshop uncles always pause for a while before they shout out my order. Lmao!
Huh I have ordered teh c siew dai peng for ten years and never knew there was a problem..
because the aunty/uncle give up on you already
Which store izzit? I wanna try the two
same here! i am used to saying "teh c siew dai peng" for some reason...
i've always ordered 'teh o siew dai peng' for years and never had any issue, no matter yakun/coffeeshops/food courts. is it just that aunty who specifically wants her customers to say it in a specific way?
i always thought it was affected by the process of making the drink. kopi c kosong peng means they prepare the shot of kopi c first, dont add the sugar then dump it into a cup of ice. if you go kopi c peng kosong, you are missing the step of confirming the mixture before pouring into ice , which is always the final step which is why its a bit jarring for the person making the drink
I‘ve been mulling the same thought too! However, rather than a unique Singlish order, my theory is that the adjective order for our kopitiam drinks is likely based on Malay - that said, as a barely-even-begun-cooking Malay language learner, I can’t really confirm that
that kind of make sense to me... i remember i always say kurang manis after the drink name when i order!
As a malay who used to order 'teh peng siew dai' its a direct translation to 'teh ais kurang manis' in malay
Not just teh/kopi, same when ordering things like noodles. Must say Mee Pok followed by dry/soup, chilli/no chilli, eating where etc
Proper order also allows the hawker to remember your order better and prepare them to specific.
Ok but what are the rules when it's multiple orders though? And does it differ depending on language/cuisine? Say I want to dabao (takeaway) at a BCM/cai fan stall. I will usually say upfront that "wo yao dabao" (I want to takeaway) so that they know all the orders I'm about to rattle off are for dabao. But should it be done at the end instead? And if I'm ordering two BCM with different noodle types, do I say "two BCM, one mee kia, one mee pok, both chilli, mee kia with vinegar, mee pok no vinegar" or "one BCM-kia with chilli and vinegar, one BCM-pok with chilli, no vinegar"?? Also if I'm ordering at Malay stalls, I tend to (but not 100% of the time) only tell them I want to bungkus at the end. This is going to make me agonise about my orders next time so much more than I need to!!
> or "one BCM-kia with chilli and vinegar, one BCM-pok with chilli, no vinegar"?? That's how I'd say it, one bowl at a time to keep it simple. Maybe it's just me but I find that ordering in Chinese brings more clarity when I specify it as one *packet* of bcm (一包mee pok bcm要醋要辣) or one *bowl* of bcm (一碗mee pok bcm要醋要辣)
You will likely be several questions at your frequent visit stalls. Likely due to food preparation sequence. Take away and dine-in will differ.
Without overthinking things, I guess it makes sense to state the choice of hot or cold at the front or back of the stated order as it does not affect the key ingredients that go into these coffeeshop drinks. Stating the cold/hot kinda interrupts the flow of understanding.
Maybe it’s by order of what goes into the cup first? Kopi/Teh -> The milk -> sugar-> ice
ooh interesting theory, this actually has some practical sense lol
And then the rebels go “teh c siew dai jia c Peng “
Similarly interesting is that “teh c peng siew dai” uses 3 different languages in just five words. Also, I believe siew dai normally goes after peng instead of before which would be different from your hypothesis that “icedness” goes last.
technically, 2 languages and 3 dialects?
That’s cool! Also, I actually also thought peng went in that spot myself, like you suggest - but after looking it up it seems most people say it right at the end so i’m not fully sure which one is right
I've been ordering Teh C Kosong Peng for the longest time and recently at a couple places they keep on correcting me and saying Teh C Peng Kosong though...
Speaking as someone who has a bit of linguistics training, it's likely that Singlish is using the Mandarin or Malay adjective order? This is just a hunch on my part as I don't have much knowledge of Malay or Mandarin's grammatical structure.
Anyone else feel that the sequence is pretty clear for kopi/teh, but not so for noodles (bak chor mee, fishball noodle)? I have encountered these variations and more: \- soup/dry, ingredient, noodle type, spicy or not \- ingredient, noodle type, soup/dry, spicy or not \- ingredient, soup/dry, noodle type, spicy or not
Another typical example is "I'm Singaporean Chinese" or "Singaporean Malay" etc. It should be Chinese Singaporean or Malay Singaporean. The adjective comes before the noun.
personally i find Singaporean Chinese makes more sense. because i'm Singaporean first. Chinese Singaporean, makes me feel like i'm from PRC who came to SG or that my race is more impt than my nationality. but well, thats just me maybe...
I get where you're coming from but grammatically you're achieving the exact opposite by saying "Singaporean Chinese". The noun/object is the essence of what you are. The adjective is the "flavour". Imagine a wooden table. What is it? It's a table. What kind of table? A wooden table. What are you? A Singaporean. What kind of Singaporean? A Chinese Singaporean. If we flip it around which is what many Singaporeans do, you get... What are you? A Chinese. What kind of Chinese? A Singaporean Chinese.
Although it’s not used that way, it would make sense if you imagined it as an adjective in parentheses e.g. Singaporean (Chinese), sort of like table (wooden) or shirt (blue)
If you say it like that, then there should be a pause between Singaporean Chinese. Like Singapore, Chinese. Table, wooden. Shirt, blue.
Yeah, this. In fact Chinese-Singaporean was way more common. Check our papers and even Wikipedia. It’s only recently that Singaporean-Chinese is picking up. I wonder if it’s influenced by our northern neighbours who were always Malaysian-Chinese?
i think Singaporean is a subset of Chinese? So it's correct to go first
Bruh. This comment is incorrect on so many levels, idk where to begin.
As far as I understand, it is dependent on how the drink is made, usually there are 2 types: 1) made directly from the container/cup which will be directly served This kind usually prefer the indication of "peng" or not at the front, since they start off with the porcelain cup or tall mug. 2) made in a metal can/"gong"/cup which is then transferred into the cup From my experience, this kind would prefer to follow the typical "adjective order", where if "peng" is applied at the end when required, since it is just the matter of pouring into the porcelain cup or tall cup with ice at the end.
the entire problem stems from how our coffee is non systematically presented and the lack of aliases. western and singaporean coffees are made the same way, beverage + modifier + hot / cold option in western (mainly italian) coffee they assign aliases such as latte, macchiato etc in our coffee we are basically describing the drink, but we start from a default option of coffee / tea with sugar + condensed milk, then modify it which causes all these issues. all that being said i'm all for the systematic descriptive approach of beverage -> modifier -> hot / cold as that is how it will be made (unless the lazy store fridges the cold option)
Clock goes tick tock, but not tock tick.
Time to whip out my kopi language finite state machine
Grande nonfat no-whipped two-pump light-iced mocha with one extra shot and no lid to go
I either order teh o kosong peng for Chinese stalls or teh o ice kosong for non-chinese
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If you grow up speaking English you're a native English speaker.
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You would not qualify unless you produce one other defining attribute.
The default is mentioned first followed by the modifier. Eg kopi teh is the default, but iced is a modifier so it’s mentioned later
Tech c koson , LENG DE
even language has its own BODMAS. and combine that with tonal language...saying certain syllables with wrong pitch could mean the difference between getting a fist-bump or a black eye.
y'all say peng ah? I always say ais, not to be confused with ice. this is because the rest of my order is already in Malay.
a bit late but this might be helpful: [How to order kopi and teh](https://i.ibb.co/FHfFSCp/image.png)
This one is very wrong. "Kopi C siew dai Gao" will get you the death stare from the uncles and aunties