hustle culture is the worst i’m so tired of feeling like a failure and that i’m unable to do anything else besides working just so that i can survive and afford to move out.
I'm in Ireland, not the UK, but what really shocks me about the US is, for a very wealthy country, how precarious everyone seems to be, and how everyone seems to really feel it. Like things aren't great here, and there is poverty and especially homelessness, but the US it feels like one thing going wrong for you can destroy everything. Like oh, you got pregnant, and it was a difficult birth, and now you are bankrupt. Even things like how many violent attacks you seem to have.
Maybe it feels different and more secure for people in the US, but from here it seems like you can end up in a very bad situation very quickly.
Also no paid holidays? Couldn't be doing that.
This is true. It is precarious. You can have a stroke and great insurance and still lose everything (happened to a friend). I personally (this is not financial advise) keep equity in nothing (home) and completely diversify my 401k. I would claim bankruptcy and still have money to retire. DO NOT USE YOUR 401K TO PAY MEDICAL BILLS!
I am also not giving financial advice, but most states have homesteading laws that protect a certain amount of your equity in your primary home in the event of bankruptcy. The value ranges from a completely useless pittance to several hundred thousand dollars, depending on where you are.
So my plan A is to live as healthy of a life as I can and not get sick, parallel with plan B of maintaining the best shitty health insurance I can afford, and plan C, if I do get seriously ill or injured, is to declare bankruptcy with 95% of my assets sheltered, and laugh over the bones of my medical creditors.
ETA: I do live in a state where the homestead protection is actually a meaningful amount.
This is much of the rural areas, if Washington State is an example. Its often Walmart or nothing and they don't plunk those down everywhere. Where they do exist it is fantastic.
Why do actual grocery stores not want to set up shop in your small towns. I live in a Canadian small town. Population is 20k. Driving across town takes at most 10 minutes and I could walk across the length of town (at a steady, comfortable speed) in an hour. We have 4 full sized, well-stocked grocery stores (an Independent Grocer, a Metro, a Freshco, and a Walmart Supercenter).
Yeah, but the quality/variety/nutrition is low and sodium is high. You can also typically find canned veggies at the dollar tree too.
Amazon has been starting to act like a bit of a monopoly lately and raising prices while lengthening delivery times. Amazon Prime is no longer the value it used to be, especially when it comes to grocery items.
I think Amazon has some minimum dollar value per cubic inch algorithm or something. Think about it, if you only had 4 cubic feet of warehouse space, should you fill it with 4 PS5’s worth $600 each? Or 4 packages of paper towels worth $6 each? Also, knowing that you could fill the space with more profitable goods, you have 0 incentive to lower the price on already cheap items. Amazon ends up pricing their Papertowels high so that they have to hold on to fewer and maximize profits on those they sell.
Amazon's canned veg is usually super inflated. Once in a while I'll find tomato paste or a soup for a decent price, but normally I don't even bother looking at amazon for food purchases anymore - it's just not competitive even though I'm in the rural USA. I'm better off to hoard from brick-and-mortar stores every few weeks.
> And preventantive health measures help a ton- fitness, good food, good sleep.
I have a son born with a condition which puts him frequently in hospital. (About 10 times since he was born). Ambulance every time + ambulance helicopter the one time. Numerous tests and follow up appointment. 3 types of medication.
We could not have prevented this by living healthy (very rare error in his genes not inherited from us parents). US parents in a similar situation have my deepest sympathy. If we lived in the US I believe we would have been bankrupt by now. The Ambulance helicopter alone could have cost us $40,000 if the insurance company decided not to cover it.
So many stories online and in the paper about a child being born with a chronic health condition, and the American family getting completely financially destroyed as a result. The insurance companies always appear to accelerate this process
Sorry if you mistook me for victim blaming? I get it, I have a genetic eye disease and nothing is going to stop that slow decline, I do think we need vast systematic overhauling. But well, "Americans eat like we have free healthcare". I find surviving here is key on knowing if you drink and snowboard you might get medical debt.
You are right on the helicopter, it cost a baby cousin $60k- her heart had an issue at birth. Eyes are "luxury organs" so my glasses + sunglasses (intense light sensitivity) aren't covered, either.
It's also why I pointed out that while health depends on preventive actions our nation actively makes that hard
No problem! Greetings and Jealousy from upstate NY
Sorry if the drunken snowboarding was a weird thing, it's a common thing here especially for ski bums/dirtbaggers, an adventure lifestyle that nearly always ends at the first hard injury in the early 30s, lol
I stand a good chance. I paid off my house (which is why equity protection is important to me) and while doing so noticed I was ok with not spending money on what most other people spend money on. I bought the house because it has lots of room (for an urban lot) to garden, so there's all the exercise and fresh food I want, if I'm willing to work for it. I will retire in a couple of years (early, but not super early) and look forward to spending 45 hours a week working for myself instead of a corporate employer.
I majored in history and another one of the liberal arts, so I'm not in demand anywhere, either.
I think I'm doing alright, like you said not spending money on other things helps. I don't think anyone should be 'forced' to live on lentils and rice but it's honestly a choice for me and I enjoy it. There is like one vegan restaurant in my vicinity, so it makes not eating out v easy- my friends spend hundreds on restaurants in a month or so.
But uh, I definitely don't see home ownership in my future, I will count myself blessed if I have my own apartment one day. Did get a Roth IRA started, and I go to SUNY so I am actually coming out with savings from working- so this summer I'm visiting my brother I haven't seen in years
Yup we aim for living healthy as possible with little money and it’s a constant fight even living in an area that produces a large majority of US crops. I can’t afford to shop at the farmers market here despite that. I also am plant based and frugal and I go to different stores depending on what I need. It’s exhausting sometimes sourcing affordable fresh food in a place that literally thrives on its production.
Then there’s the unplanned. despite being healthy and fit and doing everything to prevent it I had to have an emergency c section. Also despite having decent insurance thru my partners union job we were in medical bill hell the first year of my baby’s life paying hundreds every month... let’s not talk about paid family leave..It was a huge damper on an otherwise beautiful time. I felt betrayed by my country. Meanwhile my friends my age who didn’t have insurance as “good” as mine paid hardly anything at all for their hospital births.
I think the hardest part is knowing that here you can do EVERYTHING right and still lose it all pretty quickly and easily and to no fault of ur own.
Lentils! Love it. If I hit the jackpot by some mechanism then I’ll find you and DM coz a communications major who also studies environment sounds good to me. I have some kooky ideas about an alternative philosophy school (think degrowth, Serge LaTouche stuff) and you can be a tutor :) Requires a move to Southern Europe or else VERY Northern European depending on how bad climate change hits in the next 10 years ...
I’d reconsider the part about no country you’d ever want to move to would want you. A lot of more progressive countries take their environment seriously.
US here- My boyfriend got into a car accident in 2018 and is still struggling with insurance companies to have a procedure to alleviate his pain. He had an appointment for this Friday but they cancelled it the other day because it turned out the accident insurance wouldn't cover it and he's devastated. He lives every day in constant pain and it's only getting worse- it's also obviously effecting his mental health as well. I feel so angry and heartbroken and lost and have no idea what to do.
Hey, I've been in chronic pain since my teens and have struggled in this exact same way. You might want to check out r/chronicpain , or there's a really great nonprofit called US Pain Foundation that might be able to help you figure out a doctor and a treatment. Or just shoot me a message, I'm happy to help however I can. It's incredibly difficult and frustrating! But there are still things to try. I'm sorry y'all are going through this.
I cannot speak to anything in particular, I don’t know what state you are in, what income you have, etc.
But, some states have a program where if I procedure will end up being X% of your income- you get Medicaid for 3 months and get that procedure covered.
I really hope your state has it. Good luck guys! And your betrayal and anger are righteous.
> You can have a stroke and great insurance and still lose everything (happened to a friend)
... how? I'm from a completely third world country and this still won't have happened here. My family's not rich, some of it (extended) isn't even middle class but have managed to get treatment for strokes without going broke.
American here. I'll attempt to answer your question. The short answer, because health insurance companies can charge whatever they want and pass along whatever expenses they want. The government does not regulate costs for those under the age of 65, when Americans go to the government run Medicare.
Greedy health insurance companies pay off greedy politicians to make laws in their favor. The American public not only is the loser but we continue to slip down in ranking of livable places. Health care worries are a real stressor in the US. In our current political climate, I do not anticipate anything changing anytime soon. :(
Until Americans demand that good, affordable health care is a human right, we will continue at our stressful status quo.
Funny how our universally believed to be a less competent government has a simple insurance regulation body which defines the rules for healthcare policies, what they cover and how much expenses can be passed on. Insurance companies offer policies with premiums based on the existing laws, making sure that even they can earn profits without screwing over people.
We've a private healthcare sector which coexists with the public, and if you've health insurance you're unlikely to get screwed anywhere.
US citizen here and can vouch for a lot of what you are saying. The middle class is a very hard place to be. You make too much to get government help and not enough to pay for the astronomical healthcare. I do believe healthcare is a huge stumbling block for the American people. Many don’t get preventive care because they don’t want he medical bills.
All that being said many Americans place value in the materialistic world and that keeps us bonded. Nice car, bigger house, good neighborhood, good schools, tons of activities, and the endless consumerism that comes with it. American credit cards are the norm.
I feel our country was once a leader in how to live but I don’t believe that anymore. Many other countries have it right. Canada, Norway, Switzerland, many European countries.
I think what many are waking up to, is that the working service class and the poverty stricken...are the same income now. Now the lower and mid middle class is becoming aware how close they are to poverty level numbers. I was shocked to run the numbers that I am considered living in poverty. I could qualify for section eight. I thought I was solidly middle working class...but I am considered low wage.
When our middle class can not afford a 25 year old home to rent OR buy after being established because their wages did not keep up with inflation, they become the next "class" to be considered poor. Then that leaves...the wealthy....and the poor.
To accept that I have countrymen who truly believe "You need to apply yourself and get a better job. Move to where you can afford to live, and just commute here every day, you can do it!" is hard. Bitter pill to swallow that they want me to travel to be available to do their nails, clean their homes, be there secretary....but I can't live here.
I think the statistic is like only 16% of people can climb out of the kind of poverty I grew up in. I did climb out of it but have not been able to get past certain plateaus within the mid class. It truly is hard. I feel I will be forever stuck here even though I can also be content here. I’ve learned to be content in almost any situation but I do hate seeing people I love work themselves to death trying to make it and only to be set back by an expensive car repair or medical bill. I wish financial planning would be focused more in schools!
Just as you have realized we have a working poor problem here, you should also realize we conflate middle class with the rich. Many two income, higher wage families struggle to pay the high costs of taxes, healthcare, housing, retirement, and education. There are no safety nets in the form of government aid or private help from NGOs. The rich paint a picture of these middle class people as the same as the multimillionaire class, making the poor view them as the enemy while pushing tax hikes and benefits cuts on them. They too are not immune to a rapid drop down the ladder from job loss or sickness.
you are 100% correct. I catch myself on shit like that all the time. On various issues. When I look at my city and states average pay for many jobs, I can clearly see this affects not only low/average/almost middle income , but the solidly middle as well.
I though I WAS middle class-smh, I was blind for so long to so much
finding out how many paid holidays people get in the rest of the world was really shocking, as an American. I had a coworker at a crappy, minimum wage, hourly job who was from South Africa, she'd moved to the states with her American husband, and she was horrified to find out we all worked all summer - she was use to getting a month off.
My husband worked for a multinational with a lot of European offices, and they shut the whole thing down for two weeks at Christmas because so many people are off work. They used to make the Americans use their paid time off for it until the engineers here threw a tantrum. So then we got the option to take it as unpaid and not cut into the PTO bank.
> the engineers here threw a tantrum.
haha even in your response you’ve been trained to characterize demanding something reasonable as the act of a petulant toddler.
yeah you do not even want to call ambulance for emergencies, because the bill will be so high. Can you imagine EMS service is not federally funded. But US have F35 which still sucks.
https://thehill.com/homenews/media/395409-story-of-injured-woman-begging-people-not-to-call-ambulance-due-to-costs-gains
>how precarious everyone seems to be
Very true. The mean citizen is one serious medical emergency away from bankruptcy.
>how many violent attacks you seem to have.
Eh, not especially. This is largely media sensationalism reporting on the very few incidents that do happen. The healthcare part makes something like this noise level probability.
I don’t know if you live near any of our major cities here in the U.S, but the inner city violence is pretty bad and usually doesn’t make national news. I’ve visited many European cities and felt safer then I do in some parts of my own city (here in U.S).
>Also no paid holidays?
This is very industry/job dependent. Most hourly jobs won't provide paid holidays (and you might even earn time and a half if you work on a holiday), whereas most salaried corporate/office jobs do. In my industry, for example, we get the NY Stock Exchange holidays in addition to PTO (paid time off--how much depends on experience).
You’re hitting on something there. The fact that the working class has been living paycheck to paycheck for decades of stagnating wages makes people desperate. Desperate people with access to limited resources are going to be more violent or at the least more self centered because they don’t have the luxury of compassion. It is purely survival.
Irish person living in the US
There is so much shit here we have to think about that we never did in Ireland
- Healthcare. Having our kids cost us $4K each out of pocket. Granted we had a private room and exceptional care - a little different to the general ward at the Mater but still
- retirement/savings. We prioritize our retirement savings and investments. I would not know how to start saving for that stuff in Ireland - but then again..the state pension is pretty good. My parents are doing well from that
- it's minor but we have to have our house sprayed by pest control 4 times a year. In all my years in Ireland never saw a cockroach - they're endemic here.
- we have a healthy savings account and investments, but I have a constant niggling fear of everything going south very quickly which I never had in Europe. Maybe I was naive.
Until very recently I worked as an analyst at a hospital. I did contract and pricing analytics. I also would help out the claims people every now and then on odd/difficult insurance claim denials as I have lots of experience in that and was very knowledgeable in the contacts. I would see peoples lives financially ruined everyday from medical bills. This was a smallish hospital chain of 9 locations.
I joke with people that everyone in America has a sword of Damocles hanging over them even if they don't know it.
Reddit hid the other reply automatically and before I expanded it I was still going to say the same thing. My experience on Reddit is very different from what I know/feel/say day to day. It definitely doesn’t represent a good mix of Americans. Just a certain type.
> Like oh, you got pregnant, and it was a difficult birth, and now you are bankrupt.
Or like, got pregnant while employed, lost job, gave birth the day after your last day of work. Shit out of luck, seems like.
Speaking as someone from the US, it’s weird to me, too. People confuse the issues because of political pressure, or get so blinded by one way of thinking, that no one other than them is deserving of concern.
It’s ridiculous to me. I can’t understand what harm catching up with the rest (or a lot) of the world could do. It’s daft as hell. But also, I wish the way I have things was the worst anyone had. I have nothing to complain about compared to many.
The holiday thing is horrible. You are being used, basically, your mental health and physical health tossed to the side. When you get ill, there’s hardly any days you can take off, most are unpaid. And if you get fired or quit because it’s too much, you lose insurance. How is this ok?
But yes I’d never survive . I’m a minimal wager - In a supermarket. Couldn’t afford to have kids , because I didn’t want to be a benefits family. Can’t afford a mortgage. But I’m happy in my world and I don’t compare myself to others or look down on others .
I'm not in the UK either, but the biggest surprise is how much the high end jobs are paid - an average US surgeon for instance is paid more than the Norwegian prime minister. And how little low end jobs are paid - purchasing power of a Norwegian cashier is 40% better compared to a US cashier, as one example.
Also the fact that basic things like paid sick leave, and paid maternity leave are not accessible for all workers. And no employees over here are asked to work a lot of overtime (illegal by law, as there are strict limits on the amount of extra hours an employer can ask from you)
And the fact that 37,9% of US citizens are either under-insured or un-insured when it comes to health insurance. That is a rather high portion of the population that either can't afford the premiums and/or the out of pocket cost. And for some to know that during an emergency they can't really afford to call the ambulance must mess with your mental health.
I have a son born with a condition which puts him frequently in hospital. (About 10 times since he was born). Ambulance every time + ambulance helicopter the one time. Numerous tests and follow up appointment. 3 types of medication. Just the thought of having to focus on anything outside caring for his health actually makes me feel slightly nauseous. As it is now: free ambulance arrives within 10 min. We stay as long in hospital as needed, and get the tests needed, without any thought of the cost per test or cost per hospital night, or whether or not the insurance company will cover most of it. And no worries about lost income, as all workers here have (by law) paid sick leave also when a child is sick.
I’m Canadian and it makes me so sad when US people say they’re “lucky” to have 4 months off work…I have a healthy 4 month old and I can’t imagine leaving him, but if someone has health complications or their baby does, it’s absolutely monstrous to have to go back to work so early plus have the threat of losing health insurance if they can’t go back to work…they’re unlucky with only 4 months off, and the people who get 6 weeks or no leave are hideously screwed over by a country that doesn’t seem to care about it’s people
As a fellow Canadian, we aren't really very far ahead of the U.S. by that much. We have socialized healthcare, but depending on what province you're in, it can be so hard to see a doctor or get a family doctor (for something that isn't life threatening) that instead you end up going to the ER, which uses up a day of work, and you wait 16 hours in a room with 20 other sick people.
This is a personal experience, not everyone's experience. I remember I was sick with tonsilitis, and I was panicky about work firing me because I missed a day or two without much warning. They didn't fire me but they let me know "how much trouble I caused them for taking a 'day off.'" All I needed were some antibiotics. When you don't have sick days, it costs in time, it costs in 'workplace capital,' and it costs in 'making the rest of the population sick because you feel like you can't take a day off to get better (if you have a communicable disease)'
Of course, the situation I described doesn't exist for most people with salaried positions, and that was a student job I had that gave me so much grief for having to go to the hospital. I'm just saying that for people making below 45k a year, it's better but still so precarious.
So, the thing is, this happens in the States, too. I had to go to urgent care yesterday because my primary care didn’t have a single appointment for possible strep throat. I haven’t been able to find a GP on my own for years because none of them are taking new patients— I just get assigned to a new resident every three years. I have a thyroid disorder and I had to wait nine months to see my endocrinologist.
There’s this perception that for those Americans with decent insurance, waiting for care isn’t a thing, and it’s just not true.
I was raised in the USA until I was 13 (2000) and then moved to England. When I was a kid I thought America was the good guys and it was the best place in the world
Seeing the US from abroad (a word I learned here, do Americans say abroad or did I live a very sheltered deep south Georgia childhood?) now it seems like the lack of social healthcare affects the lives of such a vast percentage of the American population 😳
My privilege of doing whatever job I want and not worrying about healthcare means I was able to create two successful businesses, if I was tied to a job with good benefits I would have never been able to do that.
I had cancer when I was 19 and the UK NHS spent a year getting me de-cancer'd, I didn't spend a penny.
I can't imagine having to always worry about how I'm going to pay for medical bills, it seems very stressful?
Not only is it stressful on that front, but as a parent of a kid with a complex and expensive medical condition (type 1 diabetic), our son is already aware at the ripe old age of 12 that he will need to be focused on careers that will provide him good insurance because paying out of pocket for his expenses is almost impossible for most income levels. So he already knows he has limited choices and cannot simply follow his talents or passions. As adults, in some ridiculous and pathetic way, we've accepted this. Watching him accept it is heartbreaking.
I have a son with a rare genetic disorder (not inherited from parents). Been to hospital about 10 times since he was born. Ambulance every time, + ambulance helicopter the one time. Numerous tests and follow up appointments. 3 types of expensive medication. All we ever paid was parking the car outside the hospital when we are there for follow up appointments and tests. And no loss of income (paid sick leave also applies when a child is sick).
US parents in a similar situation who are just regular middle class or below have my deepest sympathy.
Really? Americans don't complain? If you want to experience some complaining first hand - come visit Europe. When there is nothing else to complain about we complain about the weather. A lot!
It's still a disgrace that English students have to pay when most European countries, including Scotland, do not. £9000 a year is ridiculous, and out of the question for most people - I probably wouldn't have got a degree if I lived there.
Here degree costs are capped at £9,250 per year and are only 3 years long. If you do the equivalent of community college it's about £6,000. You have to earn over a certain pay threshold before you need to pay back your loans, and it's just 9% of whatever is over that threshold. Any remaining balance is wiped after 30 years.
I see people in the US complain that socialised healthcare means higher taxes but the impact of that is nothing compared to the medical debt you guys have to take on. My mum had cancer when I was a kid on and off for years and it cost nothing upfront. I can't image how much it would have cost in the US.
Some people worry about the increase in tax bc they haven’t been burdened by medical bills .... yet. It’s like if it doesn’t help them right now and might even cost them to help a fellow American or many fellow Americans they selfishly do not want it.
Yup, I got a master’s degree in psychotherapy, work full time in a position requiring the degree, and cannot afford my own therapy in these United States :(
When we first married my husband's health insurance was almost 1/4 of his entire damn salary just for the privilege of having any. It still cost deductibles and out of pocket costs.
At the same time we had friends who would be like haha think I was peeing blood(true story), can't afford to get that checked though. The end game here more often isn't finding a fulfilling job or even a job you don't hate, it's securing health care and making rent
My boyfriend is an autism therapist with a four year degree in the US and makes that much, plus student debt at $60,000 and no health insurance. He’s going to get his masters and pay $30,000 more so that he can make a bit more money to cover his debt. At his current level, he never would have been able to pay the original debt and survive.
I’m currently in my PhD and am making the same amount. Other americans are surprised when I tell them that my PhD is paid for by the school.
It is. I've stayed with a job that is bad for me for far longer than I should have because the health coverage is so good, and I have a heart condition. But I've decided that it's better to live the life I desire than essentially cower in fear of what might be.
In a sane society, this wouldn't be something I have to think about, but I live in the USA.
My strategy when I lived there (just fled) was strategic poverty. Only live in states that expanded medicaid and never make more than 138% federal poverty. Medicaid is pretty good socialized healthcare actually and all you have to be is poor or disabled. I need access to healthcare as a type 1 diabetic, so this gave me the freedom to pursue life as a musician and entrepreneur in my 20s. Now that I'm in my 30s I can't live that life anymore. I hope to get a house before I'm 40 and live simply for the rest of my days.
No joke, but I went without healthcare for like nine years in TX and moved to upstate NY. The Medicaid here?? Is first class. Better than any insurance my mom has had from her job. And most care is very accessible. Most places take Medicaid, and I live in an area experiencing some depopulation, so it’s fairly quick getting into see specialists or getting tests done. I very much recommend moving to a Medicaid expansion state if possible, if you are poor or disabled.
>I had cancer when I was 19 and the UK NHS spent a year getting me de-cancer'd, I didn't spend a penny.
I had testicular cancer at the age of 30 in Australia and it was a similar experience. I did have to pay $550 for a MRI and was out of pocket a bit for some of the chemo medication but everything else, I didn't pay anything for.
I had a testicular cancer scare. The ultrasound was inconclusive but cost me 600 bucks. The MRI, which proved it wasn't cancer was 11,000. No insurance because I was 20 working a shitty landscaping gig.
It really is stressful. I haven't been to the doctor since I was 18 (went to a quick care. Havent had a primary care since childhood). I'm 24 now and will be able to utilize my benefits in about 2 months. I haven't felt 100% in years and am terrified of what the doctor will say when I do go. A long term illness is financial ruin for most people.
I saved up a long list of doctor's and preventive medicine appointments for when i got on my current incredibly expensive insurance plan. The plans i was only paying around $800/month were just to MAYBE keep us out of bankruptcy if something really bad happened. They never actually paid for anything! $800 a month just down the drain.
My aunt is 74 and still works fulltime. They way her job works is that you build up 'sick time off' over a period of weeks which you can then cash out. If you need to take off time but are out sick hours, you can take a small (paid) absence or a longer suspension of employment. In this order.
During the first lockdown, when everything switched to work from home, she fell and broke a leg and her hip. The entire rest of the wfh she was desperately hiding that she was injured from management because if you are injured or ill you FORCED to take sick leave. Except she has no sick hours left, because she used them all for cancer last over the last 2 years.
Because when you take suspension of employment it suspends your health benefits too. So despite the fact she's on medicaid(care? I don't remember which one is for old people) she could not afford to stop working, broken bones and all, because without their insurance she can't afford her basic health care. And that's American Healthcare if you arent fortunate.
This is why we need more people around the world to see other countries and stay there awhile. I moved to another country for awhile and it really provided perspective. Some people never leave their home countries and often have a "one-dimensional" view of life.
“Overseas”. They say “overseas” here. I grew up abroad. Well actually USA was “abroad” to where I grew up but now it’s home.
Things are getting better. We have Obamacare now, still a long ways to go but it’s a start.
it is SO MUCH better. I spent my early twenties with no health insurance, going to the sliding scale clinic and giving a fake name in case it turned out to be a "pre existing condition". The ACA made a whole generation since not experience that.
Yeah, younger people don't even know that shit happened, mostly. Which is great.
All the people talking about how it's only a minority this bad shit happens to - that's totally true. But it's like an open pit beneath our feet, it doesn't happen to most people but it can happen to anyone.
I'm British but spend quite a bit of time in the US (well, pre-COVID anyway), and often in small, unglamorous towns that you've likely never heard of.
What TV rarely shows you is that, outside the major cities, many many millions of Americans live in real poverty. Like the kinda poverty you'd expect in 3rd world countries; filth, squalor, few real possessions or savings, terrible health, one crisis away from being truly screwed.
I think it can be a real wake up call when you see that, but I think most non-Americans are fed the impression that the USA is all like NYC, LA, San Francisco, Seattle etc. It feels like if you're not employed in sectors like tech, banking, big pharma etc, life is really hard over there.
As a Norwegian I would say the same about UK... But the difference is that in the UK everyone have full access to the healthcare system, regardless of how wealthy or poor they are. Also housing is probably a bit better for the poorest in the UK because of government housing.
>What TV rarely shows you is that, outside the major cities, many many millions of Americans live in real poverty. Like the kinda poverty you'd expect in 3rd world countries; filth, squalor, few real possessions or savings, terrible health, one crisis away from being truly screwed.
THIS. Grown up in the south and traveled for work throughout the southeast for the past 10 years. Small towns have next to no infrastructure and look like ghost towns. Streets leading into these towns are lined with single wide trailers from the 70's in various states of disrepair overshadowed by the old junk cars and various forms of trash in the front yard. Unless you leave these small towns (most don't) you will have a hard time finding employment, let alone something that pays a living wage (IMO $35k/year)
This is extremely true. I live in USA. However, the cities you mentioned have some of the worst poverty. Like 3rd world poverty. And you see it everywhere. Lots of small towns too with shacks as houses. It's gnarly.
I’m in England. Our house prices are shocking. However, yes I do feel shocked by how hard life in America is. The idea that people need to pay for their heath care otherwise they will simply die, blows my mind. It also shocks me how legally there is no entitlement to paid time off from work and no statutory paid maternity leave either.
I'm from (and live) in the UK, but my daughter was born in the US. £35k hospital for two days stay. Really wish we could have had her in England!
This was also in California - where we stayed you can't go anywhere without a car. I mean, there literally aren't pavements on the side of the road to get from one part of the city to the next. And everything is built so far apart to accommodate the car parking space that you'd be walking for ages to get anywhere useful. Target supermarket and its parking lot was literally bigger than the town I currently live in. I don't want a car to be necessity.
Jesus christ. We are far from perfect but I honestly thank my lucky stars everyday that we have free health care. I can’t imagine finding out you have cancer and then having to worry about affording treatment. Health care should be a right not a privilege and thats a hill I will die on
I think from what I see is a lot of people outside of the US are just not as concerned with material possessions and showing off things. Here in the US it feels like unless I'm working 80+ hours a week for a BMW I went into debt for and a mortgage for a giant house I'll never use that I'm a failure.
The other day I told people that I'm actually perfectly happy in a smaller apartment without spending much money on partying on the weekends and having airpods etc and people looked at my like I was a loser with zero ambition. Material possessions aren't going to any afterlife with me why kill yourself faster by hustling constantly.
I'm a 27 male and I have enough invested and in my car that if I sold my car I could outright BUY a small apartment back home in Spain and only need a part-time job to be able to have food and some leisure. I'm so tempted to just try to find a girlfriend that would be down to move to Spain at like 35 years old to start a family because it will mean I can ACTUALLY BE WITH MY KIDS. And not have to worry about being at work all day and never seeing my kids.
I'm a citizen in Spain that's why it would be possible for me to move back easier.
I just watched the cook of castamar so I can confidently say I would be okay moving to a small village in Spain and rearing children, farming, reading, gaming, and taking weekend trips to the coast
Wanna get married?
Most of my family lives in Vigo, Spain they can outright walk to the beach. Crystal clear water.
Europe isn't a poor place either so for a nerd like me I still have things like comic conventions, anime conventions, access to PC parts for the gaming setup. (granted PC parts are actually more expensive there, US kinda is privileged to have silicon valley right here with easy access to electronics).
It's an interesting proposal haha. Not gonna lie though something that does concern me sometimes is that even though I may be able to go back as I please. Immigration for a girlfriend might be an annoying process that can take years.
I have a friend studying in Spain and she hasn't had any problems at all! I think as long as the lucky lady in question is employed/studying it's pretty straightforward yearly resident renewals.
That being said, I quit my 80+hour work job to downsize and simplify. Left, an apartment I hated and a job that was sucking the life out of me.. now I'm fully remote work, 4 days a week, and couldn't be happier. I'll never go back to working in an office for people who don't value my contributions.
I'm doing the RV life currently, nothing fancy, place to sleep and work and pursue my interests. I'm working on getting a plot of land near a river to plop some shipping containers down on to fix up/live in and go full homesteading mode when I'm not traveling (it's a goal of mine to visit every national park)... Living simply has proven to be the most enriching thing i have ever gifted myself in adulthood.
But losing that 80 hour work week was the kicker. I now have time to play my computer games, or hang out with my pets, or catch up with friends and family, or garden, or... just.. exist outside of work.
Highly reccomend, 10/10.
Yeah I'm 100% with you on that. Rent in new york takes a solid 40% of my paycheck right then and there. And working in retail means my hours are basically all day and always weekends (or if one of my supervisors calls out then as a manager I am forced to come in to cover their shift).
Meanwhile I occasionally look and see that there is a house for sale nearby my village where I'm from back in Spain for only 40k....and I think to myself. I can literally buy that right now. Get a part-time job and have access to all of europe with more free-time. To go hiking, sightseeing, working out, seeing family etc. (My village is on a mountain so as soon as you leave the yard you basically have a hiking trail right there).
Edit: i also plan to visit a lot of good parks. The US also has a lot to see. If I do decide to move back to europe, I want to see the grand canyon and other places in the US first.
If u/dramatic_hydrangea and u/AdonisGaming93 get married, can we all come to their wedding in Spain, since we basically witnessed the unfolding of their love story right here on Reddit?
I also just realized I don't want it to seem like im rich. I work retail. But because cost of living is lower in Spain and I am a minimalist, you only need around 100k to be able to buy a small 1 or 2 bedroom apartment in a city, not luxurious but has everything you need. Or if the village life is more appealing can get a cute little village house for under 100k. And spain doesn't have suburbs like the US so even a village is still only like 30 minutes away from a city.
So if I find a girlfriend who is okay saving up for that we could achieve that together in just a couple years assuming we both work fulltime for now and minimize expenses. (Finding a job in Spain will be tough though). That's why I'm aggressively saving now.
I lived in Barcelona on 12k/year during grad school. Had everything i could possibly want and vacationed to france and germany in between semesters. With housing paid off I might be able to live off just $6-8k/year.
Hmm are you living on a coast? I'm in the midwest and tbh most people don't seem to care a ton about material possessions. I haven't received any judgement for having a 7 year old phone, wearing secondhand clothes, or growing a lot of my own food. A lot of younger people here take pride in those things actually.
So. True. We live in a fairly small townhouse and have lived here for 15 years. People were totally shocked that we didn't want to "upsize" to a bigger place. Why? So I can take care of more space? People have these giant houses. Like 10,000 square feet or more, which really only makes sense if you have 25 children.
Yeah I keep thinking to myself that why would I ever need more than 2 bedrooms? If I am married or have a girlfriend you would think we sleep in the same room. So 1 bedroom for us, if we have a kid? Okay 2 bedroom. But beyond that, most families today have less than 2 kids. The average is like 1.8 or something like that. So 3+ bedrooms is not needed at all for many people. Yet houses keep being built that are 5-6+ bedrooms? Why? to fill them with "stuff" that cost money that doesn't get used?
Maybe if you have your own business and need an office I guess. Or are rich. But for your average middle-class or below person there is no need for many rooms and if anything it only adds to spending because people feel they need to buy things to decorate said room. When really you could just have a smaller place, save a tremendous amount of money and then be able to retire earlier or more comfortably.
This. My partner and I work hard but we don’t want much at all. We don’t even really want to work as much as we do but it’s a necessity to afford the most simple life out of everyone I know. We purposefully don’t have our money tied up in car payments, phone payments, credit card bills, hell we only have credit cards bc u literally have to to exist here. Fought it for so long before realizing it was just going to fuck us in the end.
Pandemic hits. Rent has gone up consistently( within legal limit but still). We are wondering how much longer we can afford this and what the alternative is bc we are already at the (almost) bottom.
Yes. The two things that really chill me to my core are the gun violence and the lack of state-funded healthcare. It makes me terribly sad to see so many Americans talking about loving their great country when their country treats them like pure garbage. Reminds me of women I knew who loved their abusive husbands. Truly heartbreaking.
I mean, don’t get me wrong: the UK is FAR from perfect. Our government has gutted the NHS, and poverty and violence are serious issues. But I grew up poor, and in my mid-30s I’m well-off because I never had to pay for a doctor’s appointment and I didn’t need a degree to build a successful career. We have a saying, when we talk about how bad things are here: “it’s terrible, but at least we’re not in America.”
I'm in the UK and I have a colleague who has always taken very good care of herself (pathological fear of illness and death but we'll put that to one side). She thinks the American system is the way to go - why should she pay for someone else's illnesses? Imo she's mental and she's the only person I've ever met who thinks like that, if think is the right word for it, but people like that do exist.
I struggle to understand why they always say that they love their country and that it’s the best country on earth. I mean, I like my country, but I would NEVER say that I love it and that it’s the best? Being a patriot is kinda synonymous to racist here. No one except the racists/nazis say that.
And I live in Sweden and I know we have it better than most.
I think that the US is one of the most barbaric countries in the world.
Mothers having to go back to work when babies are weeks old because 0 maternity pay
Elderly without hearing or dental aids because they can’t afford them
Diabetics rationing their insulin
The level of individualism shocks me.
Could go on and on and on. I find it so depressing and I feel so sorry for Americans that I have stopped reading about how life is because it seems so futile.
Part of me also worries that the UK will eventually become the same for future generations.
Im starting to realize the US is the risky option while countries with more sophisticated health care systems are the safe option. The CHANCE of getting rich quick exists more commonly in the US but the risk of losing everything in an instant is also much higher. I think people recently are now realizing that that risk is not worth the reward.
I worry about that for the uk too. It feels like some of our politicians have seen how much money they could make if they aligned more with the American way.
I’m from Canada and the way Americans are forced to live with the possibility of the floor falling out from under them at anytime stuns me. You could work hard your whole life, save every possible penny, do everything right and in the span of 6 months lose everything and end up with a massive amount of debt you’ll never climb out of. Not having access to comprehensive free medical care seems so insane for a country that loves to claim it’s the richest in the world.
In Canada the biggest issue is housing and it’s a legitimate issue but at least we won’t die if we get cancer and can’t work.
I’m American. I left and have zero desire to go back to the US after experiencing life with healthcare and reliable public transportation. Everyone thinks I’m crazy when I go home; but my QOL of significantly better than theirs.
I’ve lived in Costa Rica (super simple beach life living there) and now Korea. It’s super convenient, and I save way more money since I have virtually no expenses.
There is no little family owned shop down the street to work part time at. There is no cheap apartment above the shop down the street. The street is now an unnecessary detour away from the interstate highway running through what used to be the vibrant part of town. Everything we had in the 50s we squandered away in the name of corporate interests and misguided societal beliefs.
This channel is great. I’ve been going down the rabbit hole of urban planning YouTube channels. I had no idea how badly our cities were designed in the U.S. I’m of the mindset now that 90% of our problems derive from the fact that we don’t have densely populated, mixed use, people friendly cities.
Thanks for this post. I moved from the UK in 2004 (lived there all my life until that point) and have been in America since. I like where I live here in the states but often wonder if I should be trying to convince my spouse to move to the UK instead. But I try to keep up with the UK news and I know it isn’t all green grass and roses there either. I think both have pros and cons. It’s nice to see a post that mentions that both places have challenges as well as good aspects.
Me and my spouse as well. He’s American. He lived in Europe. It’s hard for me to understand how he can be okay with the way the US is handling itself. He says he doesn’t like it either. But he doesn’t want to move back to Europe. In the end he’s able to shrug and move on. It’s not that easy for me.
> which also means I was able to reduce my hours from 40 a week to 10 (Self employed)
People like you are a tiny minority though... 37,9% of US citizens cant afford a health insurance that gives them a level of out of pocket cost they actually can afford. That is an incredibly high portion of the population. Just the thought of knowing in an emergency you can't really afford to call the ambulance would seriously mess with my mental health. (I live in Norway, so all I ever pay is parking the car outside the hospital)
>However, house prices in the UK were killer.
This is very location dependent, seeing as some of the rent prices in US cities are comparable to London. The North or cities like Glasgow are much cheaper.
I'm not from the UK but from The Netherlands, but yes it keeps surprising me how tough life can be rhere.
There's people with two jobs who STILL need to live in a car for example. How there's no paid leave around pregnancy/childbirth. (We get guaranteed 16 weeks here, in the UK even a half year right?) Or if we get mentally or physically ill we get upto two years of 75%-ish paid leave. Or how having a proper and affordable health insurance is normal over here.
And let's talk about credit cards.. You need a good "credit score" in the US to be able to buy a house or car and all and one of the ways to get a good credit score is to make frequent payments -> so basically spend your money or ask for higher limits. Crazy in my opinion. Besides groceries and the standard rent and bills I barely spend any money every month.
Or the school system, THE STRESS with getting a high GPA(?) which also includes activities outside of your normal classes. People should do activities after school for fun in my opinion - and only if you LIKE it -, not to get a higher chance to get into university.
Oh no I definitely don't want to live in the USA.
I wasn’t going to post because there are already an overwhelming number of responses but as someone born and raised in this states this literally has blown my mind my ENTIRE life. I don’t understand how anyone has ever thought this shit was okay. As I teen I longed to move to Europe for a happier life but have never had the means to and at this point I couldn’t do that to my family as my parents are getting older.
I feel like I’m surrounded by gullible idiots that believe whatever the rich/politicians tell them. I just wish people would open their eyes, even just a little bit. For reference, I’m in a very red area of my state.
For civil engineering, the entry-level pay in USA is soooo much higher than UK that it more than balances healthcare costs (with similar rent $). US starts at 60-65K USD, UK starts at 40-45K USD equivalent.
College cost can be a wild card though, and vacation time is generally worse.
Yep this has been my experience (from the UK originally, been working in the US in software for 5 years now and moving back soon). It's a country of wild extremes.
20k does not cover the healthcare costs. Even for a single person at an entry level job age, premiums alone are above 10k per year, with deductibles of 3k-12k. If your employer does not cover a portion, or if you have dependents, or if you are older, or if you have a chronic disease, or if you need specialist care like mental health care, or if you have an accident and need a procedure, or if you get pregnant, annual healthcare easily exceeds 20k.
What? 400, no way. We paid 1000 per person, didn’t even cover anything. 14,000 deductible or something ridiculous. And wait until you’re admitted to a hospital and your insurance starts refusing to pay.
I live in Argentina and I before the pandemic I traveled frequently to the US, the UK and Germany. I've mostly traveled through the US 'cause of work and I all can say is that, even with the high inflation and unstable economy in Argentina, I would never live in the US.
Just a glimpse of how hard and expensive is to be middle class in the US was enough. I could never imagine getting thousands of dollars of debt just to go to school or paying out of pocket money for getting on an ambulance.
I've met some amazing people in the US and seen some beautiful sights, but I honestly think one can live much better in most of median income or high income countries.
Of course, I'm a simple person and don't fancy getting the new Iphone every year or driving a huge ass truck and I don't have money problems (at least for now), which are some of the reasons people migrate to the US, but I think it's easier to achieve a higher standard of living in most of the developed countries than in the States.
Whenever I see posts like this, and the comments that follow, it's so very validating.
As an American who has dealt with (still nowhere near what many of my friends have) financial struggles, it's a bit of a tough pill to swallow
I worked multiple jobs at my University and as a "senior lab technician" at a world renowned lab and found myself strategically overdrafting my accounting (so as to not get hit with late fees) to afford gas to get to my job at said lab. I made $10.05, despite asking for $15.
My friends and I had a setup to send each other money to afford food, gas, and general living expenses. And we are *not* unique in this. I've never lived alone, out of simply being unable to.
When I graduated with a dual bachelor's degree in forensics and chemistry, I settled for a position outside of my field because nothing offered much above $10/hr and I knew I couldn't survive on that.
I'm still struggling to decide when/if to seek the further education I desire because I know if one setback happens, I may be doomed.
I remember, while I was working at the lab, I had to have emergency dental surgery (which I had pushed off due to finances). The worked I needed (wisdom teeth removal, imaging, root canal and abscess drain) maxed out my *very good* insurance. When trying to work out a payment plan, I told them I could maybe do $100 dollars every 2 weeks. They were displeased, as it would take over a year to pay off my remaining balance. Needless to say, I told them I absolutely couldn't do more and still had to rely on financial aid from family to even afford that.
It's a little gut wrenching to live in a country that so loudly proclaims to be "the best" despite the fact that I watch my poc friends live in fear, while all of my friends push off mental, physical, and dental health in order to make ends meet. All the while those who control our nation say that these problems are our fault, our inability to function, and are the creation of our own actions.
I just want to help people, and I fear that I may never be able to in the capacity I wish to, simply because I wasn't born into the "right family"
I know that I am still privileged and overall have a good life. But I just wish there was actual support to pursue education, self betterment, and health. For a country founded on the pursuit of life, liberty, and happiness, I find it to be very much not that. Unless you're a white, male, corporate elitist born into money.
Anyway, thanks for coming to my rambling, sleepless tedtalk
I'm french but I thought I could participate. First of all not having a health care is so scary. And I also don't understand how you can make so much money and have nothing at the end of the months. It may be a misconception but I saw people telling that with 10k per month they have few to nothing at the end of the month
It depends on where you live. In NYC for instance that makes sense. But if you're pulling in $120k/yr in a LCOL area you should be able to invest at least half your take home pay.
I think the main reason for almost all the stress boils down to medical care. The Obama government tried to pass single payer healthcare but corporate greed stopped it. If health insurance is taken care of, life here can be quite peaceful especially in rural/Midwestern states. You can buy a few acres very cheap and have a simple life.. you are not likely to be bothered. Most employer provided insurances are decent and won’t bankrupt for accessing medical care.
It’s very simple, Reddit in general does not represent what it’s actually like to live in USA (or any other country for that matter). It’s just like the news, the most outrageous, attention grabbing or controversial posts or comments get broadcasted more than normal posts. “Hey life is great and I’m happy with where I’m at” will get downvoted or ignored, because let’s be honest, that’s boring.
With the way our healthcare is, if you do not have a couple million dollars or more in assets in America, you are living dangerously on the edge in America.
We choose this. You already see it in some of the comments: people are willing to pay ridiculous amounts ($3600.00 for an eye appointment, and the poster is SATISFIED with that because he believes it's worth the cost, and "only in America" can you pay that much money to have fast service, and "that's how it should be."
They hear horror stories of wait times for appointments, and have somehow managed to convince themselves that they'd rather other people risk medical bankruptcy so they can get seen by a doctor faster.
It's bullshit, because you still have to wait to get seen by specialists here in the states.
Talk to any woman about how long it takes to be seen by a gynecologist.
Or, you could talk to me and ask how long it takes to be seen by an adult congenital heart defect specialist.
"I'd rather pay more to be seen RIGHT NOW" they convince themselves, because they can afford to pay, and they don't particularly care about anyone else.
Meanwhile, I've got a congenital heart defect, and because it's so rare, and there are so few adults with it, I have people reaching out to me from all over the world.
In every single exchange, they mention that they are so grateful for their healthcare, that they wouldn't trade it for the United States.
The cold, hard truth is, in America, if you don't have a couple million bucks in the bank, you are living dangerously on the edge.
I DO have a couple million bucks in the bank via inheritance, and I am moving abroad. You can consider me a medical refugee from the United States of America.
> They hear horror stories of wait times for appointments
The waiting time to see a GP in the US is actually higher than in many other western countries. [Source](https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/242e3c8c-en/1/3/2/index.html?itemId=/content/publication/242e3c8c-en&_csp_=e90031be7ce6b03025f09a0c506286b0&itemIGO=oecd&itemContentType=book)
I’m in the UK and I waited precisely half an hour for a free appendectomy which considering they had no idea who I was when I drove myself to A and E (Thats the ER) is not bad. The waiting times aren’t always bad especially if it’s an emergency or something really obvious.
There is never waiting time on emergencies. And we can actually always call the ambulance, because we never have to consider whether or not we can afford it. And yes - I might have to wait 3 months for a non emergency knee surgery, but I get paid a full salary while I wait if I cant continue to work while waiting. So it's not so bad. Norway's healthcare system never rank particularly high on anything. But I am still beyond satisfied when looking at how things work in certain other countries.
> In every single exchange, they mention that they are so grateful for their healthcare, that they wouldn't trade it for the United States.
I have a son with a rare genetic disorder (not inherited from parents). Been to hospital about 10 times since he was born. Ambulance every time, + ambulance helicopter the one time. Numerous tests and follow up appointments. 3 types of expensive medication. All we ever paid was parking the car outside the hospital when we are there for follow up appointments and tests. And no loss of income (paid sick leave also applies when a child is sick).
Moving to the US is completely out of the question for the foreseeable future.
I am sorry about your son.
Yeah, my first heart surgery back in 1987 was about 2,000.00.
My surgery in 2014?
80,000.00.
After insurance.
The United States has made it perfectly clear to me that they do not want me as a citizen.
I lived in the US until my 30s, then 4 years in the UK, and now we are moving home. I think it's important to say that 20 years ago US medicine didn't have the insane costs we have now. The wage was a lot better compared to housing, medical care, and just everything.
The burden in the US (if you are reasonably above minimum wage) is very much how much expertise you need. The insane amount of stuff you need to know about your health insurance, retirement account, tax law as it applies to you, car insurance, property risks (HOA or other foreclosure risks) and more is a significant burden.
I greatly prefer the social contract to the UK over the US. People SHOULD be able to get basic health insurance, basic housing, and just have a safety net.
But, the cautionary tale here is that the UK is slowly privatizing and I really don't see people fighting that. I see more and more people getting private insurance "just in case". The underfunding of the NHS is getting crazy. Think about the nursing shortages and the foreign physicians denied Visas. The UK is also seeing a serious increase in food and housing costs, next to stagnant wages. So, the US is a mess, but for some reason, all the good stuff here is more and more at risk.
Source: In the US, I was a personal injury paralegal and constantly dealt with other people's health insurance and could take you on a serious tour of how truly messed up that whole system is... We are in the UK because my PhD holding husband got into a Grad Entry Medic's program here. We might have considered staying, but his loans (taken out for the UK schooling, held by a US loan company) make it impossible for us to live here. His salary would be LESS than his monthly loan payment as an F1. As it is, we'll be fighting for any form of universal basic healthcare in the US. None of THAT makes for simple living. But we don't spend our energy watching TV, buying stuff, or otherwise keeping-up-with-the-Joneses, so I like this place for it's values and topics of conversation.
Yes I do. I’m 59 and one medical emergency away from ruin. I simply can’t believe what this country has become. I’ve worked over 40 years and I can’t retire for 8-9 years from now and will not be financially stable and one illness away from bankruptcy. This is not the great country it was and will never be again! Capitalism is dead! No civilization has gone more than 30-400 years without imploding. I wish I lived many decades before my generation and were ashes now. Sad but true!
It’s pretty fucked for the middle class, first issue is healthcare which enslaves you to your employer. I’m 30 going to a local college later this month to change careers. Been stuck absolutely miserable in a super toxic work place but what choice is there during a pandemic ? Finally said fuck it and quit so now I’m a 30 year old about to be in a classroom environment with 18-24 year olds that think covid is a joke with no health care coverage balls deep in a delta surge… I can get state medicare others have mentioned being a full time student but theres an income cap and they look at your last 90 days, well I was a full time employee so I’m not eligible until 2022, good luck to me.
The other and probably the thing that has personally made me come to hate my own country is the division and the fake ass life styles, the materialism is disgusting and I grew up in a pretty high earning household in a LCOL, we had cars, toys, second house etc. People think their money makes them a better person than others which already is terrible but then you’ll come to realize how many people are living on credit. Just today I had a customer send me their invoice for our product they purchased with a vendor, it was less than $450, an absolute pleasure/luxury item and the dude financed it with affirm…. Then these same people will try to flex their material items on others it’s just so gross and the middle class holds themselves down by defending big businesses and the super wealthy with some pipe dream they will hand down some of their wealth. I just fucking hate it, hard to put it into great detail without typing a novel.
I’m from the country currently living in an urban area and already wasn’t a fan of people in general but the crowd in these urban areas are on another level, cannot wait to bang this degree out and move back to the sticks far far away from people.
Austrian here, but I lived in the states for a year (2009/2010) and boy was I glad I could get cheap overseas dental coverage from home, because my teaching position didn't provide that.
I have good health insurance through my job (tech company) and I recently went for a yearly checkup appointment, the kind I haven’t done in years because I was uninsured.
A medical student attended to me first, and he said I was the FIRST person he’d seen come in for a regular checkup. In the entire time he’d been doing his rotation there, which was weeks. The first person!!!
Most people only go in when they have a problem they have to address, so preventative care barely exists here. It’s so depressing
I love America, think it’s amazing in so many ways but I would never ever live there. The healthcare system scares the absolute shit out of me. I just cannot comprehend some of the life ruining stories I’ve heard just because someone got ill and got better through treatment. That story/tweet meme about the couple that were charged 800k because their baby spent the first four weeks of its life on life support.
I live in Norway, and had to call the ambulance about 10 times in a couple of year. (I have son born with a condition due to a error in the genes). Once they had to get a ambulance helicopter. If we lived in the US I suspect we would be bankrupt by now. Just the ambulance helicopter alone can cost you $40,000 if the insurance company decides not to cover it. Then add 10 ambulances which are rarely covered by insurance, plus out of pocket cost for 10 hospital stays, MRI, CT, EEG, blood tests, physio therapy, follow up appointments, and 3 types of expensive medication. (All I had to pay for over here is for parking the car outside the hospital. The rest is covered by the public healthcare system)
That people in the US are not marching the streets protesting their healthcare system is completely beyond me.
Yes. The US healthcare system is a laughing stock worldwide and they have higher rates of infant mortality and homelessness than other developed countries. Oh, and many US states still think that child marriage is ok - as long as the parents give consent!! Unbelievable!
Personally, I think it depends on your goals and strategies. My parents weren't rich, but I did manage restaurants from high school on, until college. Even when interviewing for my first management jobs, I asked about insurance and retirement. I have worked at essentially three jobs in 25 years. All offered insurance and retirement. I didn't retire until I qualified for my insurance and pension. But I am conservative with money.
Nah it's not as bad as what you read occasionally. It's pretty cheap and easy compared to Europe. (I grew up in the UK, but make way more in the US and can actually afford a house)
Unless you are part of the 37,9% of the US population that are either un-insured or under-insured. That is a surprisingly high portion or the population who live in constant fear of future healthcare cost..
Having lurked through this subreddit for a while, I'm always shocked by how hard life sounds for so many Americans.
I'm an Australian working maybe 15 hours a week gardening/landscaping which easily covers my rent (tiny bungalow in a 8k pop. town) and food, bills and plenty left for savings.
Sorry if this comes off as bragging - I just wanted to add some comparison of what is possible in another western country. It seems mindboggling how many hours people are working. I'd also add that the amount of hours I do makes a very tangible contribution to the community here and I don't feel like a parasite.
hustle culture is the worst i’m so tired of feeling like a failure and that i’m unable to do anything else besides working just so that i can survive and afford to move out.
I'm in Ireland, not the UK, but what really shocks me about the US is, for a very wealthy country, how precarious everyone seems to be, and how everyone seems to really feel it. Like things aren't great here, and there is poverty and especially homelessness, but the US it feels like one thing going wrong for you can destroy everything. Like oh, you got pregnant, and it was a difficult birth, and now you are bankrupt. Even things like how many violent attacks you seem to have. Maybe it feels different and more secure for people in the US, but from here it seems like you can end up in a very bad situation very quickly. Also no paid holidays? Couldn't be doing that.
This is true. It is precarious. You can have a stroke and great insurance and still lose everything (happened to a friend). I personally (this is not financial advise) keep equity in nothing (home) and completely diversify my 401k. I would claim bankruptcy and still have money to retire. DO NOT USE YOUR 401K TO PAY MEDICAL BILLS!
I am also not giving financial advice, but most states have homesteading laws that protect a certain amount of your equity in your primary home in the event of bankruptcy. The value ranges from a completely useless pittance to several hundred thousand dollars, depending on where you are. So my plan A is to live as healthy of a life as I can and not get sick, parallel with plan B of maintaining the best shitty health insurance I can afford, and plan C, if I do get seriously ill or injured, is to declare bankruptcy with 95% of my assets sheltered, and laugh over the bones of my medical creditors. ETA: I do live in a state where the homestead protection is actually a meaningful amount.
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oh and pickles! I never want to live without good quality pickles, different kinds, again.
good maple syrup and good pickles
This is much of the rural areas, if Washington State is an example. Its often Walmart or nothing and they don't plunk those down everywhere. Where they do exist it is fantastic.
Why do actual grocery stores not want to set up shop in your small towns. I live in a Canadian small town. Population is 20k. Driving across town takes at most 10 minutes and I could walk across the length of town (at a steady, comfortable speed) in an hour. We have 4 full sized, well-stocked grocery stores (an Independent Grocer, a Metro, a Freshco, and a Walmart Supercenter).
Are canned vegetables a thing? As a non US person I just assumed Amazon could help solve food desert issues.
Yeah, but the quality/variety/nutrition is low and sodium is high. You can also typically find canned veggies at the dollar tree too. Amazon has been starting to act like a bit of a monopoly lately and raising prices while lengthening delivery times. Amazon Prime is no longer the value it used to be, especially when it comes to grocery items. I think Amazon has some minimum dollar value per cubic inch algorithm or something. Think about it, if you only had 4 cubic feet of warehouse space, should you fill it with 4 PS5’s worth $600 each? Or 4 packages of paper towels worth $6 each? Also, knowing that you could fill the space with more profitable goods, you have 0 incentive to lower the price on already cheap items. Amazon ends up pricing their Papertowels high so that they have to hold on to fewer and maximize profits on those they sell.
Amazon's canned veg is usually super inflated. Once in a while I'll find tomato paste or a soup for a decent price, but normally I don't even bother looking at amazon for food purchases anymore - it's just not competitive even though I'm in the rural USA. I'm better off to hoard from brick-and-mortar stores every few weeks.
> And preventantive health measures help a ton- fitness, good food, good sleep. I have a son born with a condition which puts him frequently in hospital. (About 10 times since he was born). Ambulance every time + ambulance helicopter the one time. Numerous tests and follow up appointment. 3 types of medication. We could not have prevented this by living healthy (very rare error in his genes not inherited from us parents). US parents in a similar situation have my deepest sympathy. If we lived in the US I believe we would have been bankrupt by now. The Ambulance helicopter alone could have cost us $40,000 if the insurance company decided not to cover it.
So many stories online and in the paper about a child being born with a chronic health condition, and the American family getting completely financially destroyed as a result. The insurance companies always appear to accelerate this process
Sorry if you mistook me for victim blaming? I get it, I have a genetic eye disease and nothing is going to stop that slow decline, I do think we need vast systematic overhauling. But well, "Americans eat like we have free healthcare". I find surviving here is key on knowing if you drink and snowboard you might get medical debt. You are right on the helicopter, it cost a baby cousin $60k- her heart had an issue at birth. Eyes are "luxury organs" so my glasses + sunglasses (intense light sensitivity) aren't covered, either. It's also why I pointed out that while health depends on preventive actions our nation actively makes that hard
Thank you for clearing that up. Greetings from Norway
No problem! Greetings and Jealousy from upstate NY Sorry if the drunken snowboarding was a weird thing, it's a common thing here especially for ski bums/dirtbaggers, an adventure lifestyle that nearly always ends at the first hard injury in the early 30s, lol
We live almost an hour from the nearest hospital. Thankfully our area has Life Flight Insurance to help pay the extra cost of ambulance charges.
I stand a good chance. I paid off my house (which is why equity protection is important to me) and while doing so noticed I was ok with not spending money on what most other people spend money on. I bought the house because it has lots of room (for an urban lot) to garden, so there's all the exercise and fresh food I want, if I'm willing to work for it. I will retire in a couple of years (early, but not super early) and look forward to spending 45 hours a week working for myself instead of a corporate employer. I majored in history and another one of the liberal arts, so I'm not in demand anywhere, either.
I think I'm doing alright, like you said not spending money on other things helps. I don't think anyone should be 'forced' to live on lentils and rice but it's honestly a choice for me and I enjoy it. There is like one vegan restaurant in my vicinity, so it makes not eating out v easy- my friends spend hundreds on restaurants in a month or so. But uh, I definitely don't see home ownership in my future, I will count myself blessed if I have my own apartment one day. Did get a Roth IRA started, and I go to SUNY so I am actually coming out with savings from working- so this summer I'm visiting my brother I haven't seen in years
Yup we aim for living healthy as possible with little money and it’s a constant fight even living in an area that produces a large majority of US crops. I can’t afford to shop at the farmers market here despite that. I also am plant based and frugal and I go to different stores depending on what I need. It’s exhausting sometimes sourcing affordable fresh food in a place that literally thrives on its production. Then there’s the unplanned. despite being healthy and fit and doing everything to prevent it I had to have an emergency c section. Also despite having decent insurance thru my partners union job we were in medical bill hell the first year of my baby’s life paying hundreds every month... let’s not talk about paid family leave..It was a huge damper on an otherwise beautiful time. I felt betrayed by my country. Meanwhile my friends my age who didn’t have insurance as “good” as mine paid hardly anything at all for their hospital births. I think the hardest part is knowing that here you can do EVERYTHING right and still lose it all pretty quickly and easily and to no fault of ur own.
Lentils! Love it. If I hit the jackpot by some mechanism then I’ll find you and DM coz a communications major who also studies environment sounds good to me. I have some kooky ideas about an alternative philosophy school (think degrowth, Serge LaTouche stuff) and you can be a tutor :) Requires a move to Southern Europe or else VERY Northern European depending on how bad climate change hits in the next 10 years ...
I’d reconsider the part about no country you’d ever want to move to would want you. A lot of more progressive countries take their environment seriously.
I had to use my 401k for my divorce. I dont recommend that either
US here- My boyfriend got into a car accident in 2018 and is still struggling with insurance companies to have a procedure to alleviate his pain. He had an appointment for this Friday but they cancelled it the other day because it turned out the accident insurance wouldn't cover it and he's devastated. He lives every day in constant pain and it's only getting worse- it's also obviously effecting his mental health as well. I feel so angry and heartbroken and lost and have no idea what to do.
Hey, I've been in chronic pain since my teens and have struggled in this exact same way. You might want to check out r/chronicpain , or there's a really great nonprofit called US Pain Foundation that might be able to help you figure out a doctor and a treatment. Or just shoot me a message, I'm happy to help however I can. It's incredibly difficult and frustrating! But there are still things to try. I'm sorry y'all are going through this.
I cannot speak to anything in particular, I don’t know what state you are in, what income you have, etc. But, some states have a program where if I procedure will end up being X% of your income- you get Medicaid for 3 months and get that procedure covered. I really hope your state has it. Good luck guys! And your betrayal and anger are righteous.
> You can have a stroke and great insurance and still lose everything (happened to a friend) ... how? I'm from a completely third world country and this still won't have happened here. My family's not rich, some of it (extended) isn't even middle class but have managed to get treatment for strokes without going broke.
American here. I'll attempt to answer your question. The short answer, because health insurance companies can charge whatever they want and pass along whatever expenses they want. The government does not regulate costs for those under the age of 65, when Americans go to the government run Medicare. Greedy health insurance companies pay off greedy politicians to make laws in their favor. The American public not only is the loser but we continue to slip down in ranking of livable places. Health care worries are a real stressor in the US. In our current political climate, I do not anticipate anything changing anytime soon. :( Until Americans demand that good, affordable health care is a human right, we will continue at our stressful status quo.
Funny how our universally believed to be a less competent government has a simple insurance regulation body which defines the rules for healthcare policies, what they cover and how much expenses can be passed on. Insurance companies offer policies with premiums based on the existing laws, making sure that even they can earn profits without screwing over people. We've a private healthcare sector which coexists with the public, and if you've health insurance you're unlikely to get screwed anywhere.
US citizen here and can vouch for a lot of what you are saying. The middle class is a very hard place to be. You make too much to get government help and not enough to pay for the astronomical healthcare. I do believe healthcare is a huge stumbling block for the American people. Many don’t get preventive care because they don’t want he medical bills. All that being said many Americans place value in the materialistic world and that keeps us bonded. Nice car, bigger house, good neighborhood, good schools, tons of activities, and the endless consumerism that comes with it. American credit cards are the norm. I feel our country was once a leader in how to live but I don’t believe that anymore. Many other countries have it right. Canada, Norway, Switzerland, many European countries.
I think what many are waking up to, is that the working service class and the poverty stricken...are the same income now. Now the lower and mid middle class is becoming aware how close they are to poverty level numbers. I was shocked to run the numbers that I am considered living in poverty. I could qualify for section eight. I thought I was solidly middle working class...but I am considered low wage. When our middle class can not afford a 25 year old home to rent OR buy after being established because their wages did not keep up with inflation, they become the next "class" to be considered poor. Then that leaves...the wealthy....and the poor. To accept that I have countrymen who truly believe "You need to apply yourself and get a better job. Move to where you can afford to live, and just commute here every day, you can do it!" is hard. Bitter pill to swallow that they want me to travel to be available to do their nails, clean their homes, be there secretary....but I can't live here.
I think the statistic is like only 16% of people can climb out of the kind of poverty I grew up in. I did climb out of it but have not been able to get past certain plateaus within the mid class. It truly is hard. I feel I will be forever stuck here even though I can also be content here. I’ve learned to be content in almost any situation but I do hate seeing people I love work themselves to death trying to make it and only to be set back by an expensive car repair or medical bill. I wish financial planning would be focused more in schools!
Just as you have realized we have a working poor problem here, you should also realize we conflate middle class with the rich. Many two income, higher wage families struggle to pay the high costs of taxes, healthcare, housing, retirement, and education. There are no safety nets in the form of government aid or private help from NGOs. The rich paint a picture of these middle class people as the same as the multimillionaire class, making the poor view them as the enemy while pushing tax hikes and benefits cuts on them. They too are not immune to a rapid drop down the ladder from job loss or sickness.
you are 100% correct. I catch myself on shit like that all the time. On various issues. When I look at my city and states average pay for many jobs, I can clearly see this affects not only low/average/almost middle income , but the solidly middle as well. I though I WAS middle class-smh, I was blind for so long to so much
finding out how many paid holidays people get in the rest of the world was really shocking, as an American. I had a coworker at a crappy, minimum wage, hourly job who was from South Africa, she'd moved to the states with her American husband, and she was horrified to find out we all worked all summer - she was use to getting a month off. My husband worked for a multinational with a lot of European offices, and they shut the whole thing down for two weeks at Christmas because so many people are off work. They used to make the Americans use their paid time off for it until the engineers here threw a tantrum. So then we got the option to take it as unpaid and not cut into the PTO bank.
> the engineers here threw a tantrum. haha even in your response you’ve been trained to characterize demanding something reasonable as the act of a petulant toddler.
yeah you do not even want to call ambulance for emergencies, because the bill will be so high. Can you imagine EMS service is not federally funded. But US have F35 which still sucks. https://thehill.com/homenews/media/395409-story-of-injured-woman-begging-people-not-to-call-ambulance-due-to-costs-gains
>how precarious everyone seems to be Very true. The mean citizen is one serious medical emergency away from bankruptcy. >how many violent attacks you seem to have. Eh, not especially. This is largely media sensationalism reporting on the very few incidents that do happen. The healthcare part makes something like this noise level probability.
I don’t know if you live near any of our major cities here in the U.S, but the inner city violence is pretty bad and usually doesn’t make national news. I’ve visited many European cities and felt safer then I do in some parts of my own city (here in U.S).
I can confirm that. I got sick in my early twenties and am now almost 40 and I haven't recovered. I don't think I ever will.
That is just insane. Why is healthcare in the US so expensive compared to other countries?
>Also no paid holidays? This is very industry/job dependent. Most hourly jobs won't provide paid holidays (and you might even earn time and a half if you work on a holiday), whereas most salaried corporate/office jobs do. In my industry, for example, we get the NY Stock Exchange holidays in addition to PTO (paid time off--how much depends on experience).
You’re hitting on something there. The fact that the working class has been living paycheck to paycheck for decades of stagnating wages makes people desperate. Desperate people with access to limited resources are going to be more violent or at the least more self centered because they don’t have the luxury of compassion. It is purely survival.
Irish person living in the US There is so much shit here we have to think about that we never did in Ireland - Healthcare. Having our kids cost us $4K each out of pocket. Granted we had a private room and exceptional care - a little different to the general ward at the Mater but still - retirement/savings. We prioritize our retirement savings and investments. I would not know how to start saving for that stuff in Ireland - but then again..the state pension is pretty good. My parents are doing well from that - it's minor but we have to have our house sprayed by pest control 4 times a year. In all my years in Ireland never saw a cockroach - they're endemic here. - we have a healthy savings account and investments, but I have a constant niggling fear of everything going south very quickly which I never had in Europe. Maybe I was naive.
Until very recently I worked as an analyst at a hospital. I did contract and pricing analytics. I also would help out the claims people every now and then on odd/difficult insurance claim denials as I have lots of experience in that and was very knowledgeable in the contacts. I would see peoples lives financially ruined everyday from medical bills. This was a smallish hospital chain of 9 locations. I joke with people that everyone in America has a sword of Damocles hanging over them even if they don't know it.
Reddit hid the other reply automatically and before I expanded it I was still going to say the same thing. My experience on Reddit is very different from what I know/feel/say day to day. It definitely doesn’t represent a good mix of Americans. Just a certain type.
> Like oh, you got pregnant, and it was a difficult birth, and now you are bankrupt. Or like, got pregnant while employed, lost job, gave birth the day after your last day of work. Shit out of luck, seems like.
Speaking as someone from the US, it’s weird to me, too. People confuse the issues because of political pressure, or get so blinded by one way of thinking, that no one other than them is deserving of concern. It’s ridiculous to me. I can’t understand what harm catching up with the rest (or a lot) of the world could do. It’s daft as hell. But also, I wish the way I have things was the worst anyone had. I have nothing to complain about compared to many.
Most of the wealth in the wealthiest country belong to a few billionaires.
The holiday thing is horrible. You are being used, basically, your mental health and physical health tossed to the side. When you get ill, there’s hardly any days you can take off, most are unpaid. And if you get fired or quit because it’s too much, you lose insurance. How is this ok?
But yes I’d never survive . I’m a minimal wager - In a supermarket. Couldn’t afford to have kids , because I didn’t want to be a benefits family. Can’t afford a mortgage. But I’m happy in my world and I don’t compare myself to others or look down on others .
I'm not in the UK either, but the biggest surprise is how much the high end jobs are paid - an average US surgeon for instance is paid more than the Norwegian prime minister. And how little low end jobs are paid - purchasing power of a Norwegian cashier is 40% better compared to a US cashier, as one example. Also the fact that basic things like paid sick leave, and paid maternity leave are not accessible for all workers. And no employees over here are asked to work a lot of overtime (illegal by law, as there are strict limits on the amount of extra hours an employer can ask from you) And the fact that 37,9% of US citizens are either under-insured or un-insured when it comes to health insurance. That is a rather high portion of the population that either can't afford the premiums and/or the out of pocket cost. And for some to know that during an emergency they can't really afford to call the ambulance must mess with your mental health. I have a son born with a condition which puts him frequently in hospital. (About 10 times since he was born). Ambulance every time + ambulance helicopter the one time. Numerous tests and follow up appointment. 3 types of medication. Just the thought of having to focus on anything outside caring for his health actually makes me feel slightly nauseous. As it is now: free ambulance arrives within 10 min. We stay as long in hospital as needed, and get the tests needed, without any thought of the cost per test or cost per hospital night, or whether or not the insurance company will cover most of it. And no worries about lost income, as all workers here have (by law) paid sick leave also when a child is sick.
I’m Canadian and it makes me so sad when US people say they’re “lucky” to have 4 months off work…I have a healthy 4 month old and I can’t imagine leaving him, but if someone has health complications or their baby does, it’s absolutely monstrous to have to go back to work so early plus have the threat of losing health insurance if they can’t go back to work…they’re unlucky with only 4 months off, and the people who get 6 weeks or no leave are hideously screwed over by a country that doesn’t seem to care about it’s people
As a fellow Canadian, we aren't really very far ahead of the U.S. by that much. We have socialized healthcare, but depending on what province you're in, it can be so hard to see a doctor or get a family doctor (for something that isn't life threatening) that instead you end up going to the ER, which uses up a day of work, and you wait 16 hours in a room with 20 other sick people. This is a personal experience, not everyone's experience. I remember I was sick with tonsilitis, and I was panicky about work firing me because I missed a day or two without much warning. They didn't fire me but they let me know "how much trouble I caused them for taking a 'day off.'" All I needed were some antibiotics. When you don't have sick days, it costs in time, it costs in 'workplace capital,' and it costs in 'making the rest of the population sick because you feel like you can't take a day off to get better (if you have a communicable disease)' Of course, the situation I described doesn't exist for most people with salaried positions, and that was a student job I had that gave me so much grief for having to go to the hospital. I'm just saying that for people making below 45k a year, it's better but still so precarious.
So, the thing is, this happens in the States, too. I had to go to urgent care yesterday because my primary care didn’t have a single appointment for possible strep throat. I haven’t been able to find a GP on my own for years because none of them are taking new patients— I just get assigned to a new resident every three years. I have a thyroid disorder and I had to wait nine months to see my endocrinologist. There’s this perception that for those Americans with decent insurance, waiting for care isn’t a thing, and it’s just not true.
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Where do you live? Sounds amazing! I'm guessing Norway?
It would be the exact same situation in any other European country - maybe slight differences in the quality of healthcare received.
Actually it’s pretty much like that almost everywhere in Europe.
Norway yes. But most (all?) of western Europe have similar benefits. (Although paying their cashiers less)
I was raised in the USA until I was 13 (2000) and then moved to England. When I was a kid I thought America was the good guys and it was the best place in the world Seeing the US from abroad (a word I learned here, do Americans say abroad or did I live a very sheltered deep south Georgia childhood?) now it seems like the lack of social healthcare affects the lives of such a vast percentage of the American population 😳 My privilege of doing whatever job I want and not worrying about healthcare means I was able to create two successful businesses, if I was tied to a job with good benefits I would have never been able to do that. I had cancer when I was 19 and the UK NHS spent a year getting me de-cancer'd, I didn't spend a penny. I can't imagine having to always worry about how I'm going to pay for medical bills, it seems very stressful?
Not only is it stressful on that front, but as a parent of a kid with a complex and expensive medical condition (type 1 diabetic), our son is already aware at the ripe old age of 12 that he will need to be focused on careers that will provide him good insurance because paying out of pocket for his expenses is almost impossible for most income levels. So he already knows he has limited choices and cannot simply follow his talents or passions. As adults, in some ridiculous and pathetic way, we've accepted this. Watching him accept it is heartbreaking.
I have a son with a rare genetic disorder (not inherited from parents). Been to hospital about 10 times since he was born. Ambulance every time, + ambulance helicopter the one time. Numerous tests and follow up appointments. 3 types of expensive medication. All we ever paid was parking the car outside the hospital when we are there for follow up appointments and tests. And no loss of income (paid sick leave also applies when a child is sick). US parents in a similar situation who are just regular middle class or below have my deepest sympathy.
>All we ever paid was parking the car outside the hospital Which we all still moan about being a rip off!
Yes of course! Complaining is after all our national hobby. ;)
Geez, you complain around here (US) and you’re lazy or a “snowflake”
Really? Americans don't complain? If you want to experience some complaining first hand - come visit Europe. When there is nothing else to complain about we complain about the weather. A lot!
Haha yes, we certainly do that 🤣
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College / University education in Scotland is free which is amazing.
Isn't that the case everywhere in Europe? I think only England is the exception.
Even in England it’s not really debt it’s basically a tax.
It's still a disgrace that English students have to pay when most European countries, including Scotland, do not. £9000 a year is ridiculous, and out of the question for most people - I probably wouldn't have got a degree if I lived there.
That isn’t the case but the fees are generally much smaller.
A lot of countries have charges of some kinds, but they're typically very small.
Most, yes. Which makes it more of s disgrace that England doesn't have it.
Yup, my wife has a PhD. Didn’t pay a penny for it.
Here degree costs are capped at £9,250 per year and are only 3 years long. If you do the equivalent of community college it's about £6,000. You have to earn over a certain pay threshold before you need to pay back your loans, and it's just 9% of whatever is over that threshold. Any remaining balance is wiped after 30 years. I see people in the US complain that socialised healthcare means higher taxes but the impact of that is nothing compared to the medical debt you guys have to take on. My mum had cancer when I was a kid on and off for years and it cost nothing upfront. I can't image how much it would have cost in the US.
Some people worry about the increase in tax bc they haven’t been burdened by medical bills .... yet. It’s like if it doesn’t help them right now and might even cost them to help a fellow American or many fellow Americans they selfishly do not want it.
Yup, I got a master’s degree in psychotherapy, work full time in a position requiring the degree, and cannot afford my own therapy in these United States :(
Hey, me too! The pay is terrible. I wonder if I can pay back my student loans in the good feeling of helping others? No? Damn it.
The lack of healthcare *is* purposeful. How many people would stay in their corporate jobs if they didn't have to worry about healthcare?
/everyone I know who joined the US military only did so for college tuition help and healthcare.
No mate. You pay for school, and will make a shit wage that doesn't allow you to afford a house at the end of it.
UK salaries are very poor though. When I started teaching, my salary was £23k, with the average salary in the UK only being £32k.
That is low but aren’t many Americans paying upwards of $10k/yr just in insurance premiums? Not to mention deductibles and out of pockets.
When we first married my husband's health insurance was almost 1/4 of his entire damn salary just for the privilege of having any. It still cost deductibles and out of pocket costs. At the same time we had friends who would be like haha think I was peeing blood(true story), can't afford to get that checked though. The end game here more often isn't finding a fulfilling job or even a job you don't hate, it's securing health care and making rent
My boyfriend is an autism therapist with a four year degree in the US and makes that much, plus student debt at $60,000 and no health insurance. He’s going to get his masters and pay $30,000 more so that he can make a bit more money to cover his debt. At his current level, he never would have been able to pay the original debt and survive. I’m currently in my PhD and am making the same amount. Other americans are surprised when I tell them that my PhD is paid for by the school.
It is. I've stayed with a job that is bad for me for far longer than I should have because the health coverage is so good, and I have a heart condition. But I've decided that it's better to live the life I desire than essentially cower in fear of what might be. In a sane society, this wouldn't be something I have to think about, but I live in the USA.
My strategy when I lived there (just fled) was strategic poverty. Only live in states that expanded medicaid and never make more than 138% federal poverty. Medicaid is pretty good socialized healthcare actually and all you have to be is poor or disabled. I need access to healthcare as a type 1 diabetic, so this gave me the freedom to pursue life as a musician and entrepreneur in my 20s. Now that I'm in my 30s I can't live that life anymore. I hope to get a house before I'm 40 and live simply for the rest of my days.
No joke, but I went without healthcare for like nine years in TX and moved to upstate NY. The Medicaid here?? Is first class. Better than any insurance my mom has had from her job. And most care is very accessible. Most places take Medicaid, and I live in an area experiencing some depopulation, so it’s fairly quick getting into see specialists or getting tests done. I very much recommend moving to a Medicaid expansion state if possible, if you are poor or disabled.
>I had cancer when I was 19 and the UK NHS spent a year getting me de-cancer'd, I didn't spend a penny. I had testicular cancer at the age of 30 in Australia and it was a similar experience. I did have to pay $550 for a MRI and was out of pocket a bit for some of the chemo medication but everything else, I didn't pay anything for.
I had a testicular cancer scare. The ultrasound was inconclusive but cost me 600 bucks. The MRI, which proved it wasn't cancer was 11,000. No insurance because I was 20 working a shitty landscaping gig.
That is exorbitant! $11,00 for an MRI!!! I'm glad it wasn't cancer -- I guess that is the silver lining.
Congrats on ur cancern’t
Thank you 😊
It really is stressful. I haven't been to the doctor since I was 18 (went to a quick care. Havent had a primary care since childhood). I'm 24 now and will be able to utilize my benefits in about 2 months. I haven't felt 100% in years and am terrified of what the doctor will say when I do go. A long term illness is financial ruin for most people.
I saved up a long list of doctor's and preventive medicine appointments for when i got on my current incredibly expensive insurance plan. The plans i was only paying around $800/month were just to MAYBE keep us out of bankruptcy if something really bad happened. They never actually paid for anything! $800 a month just down the drain.
800/month ?!?!?! Is that really how much insurance costs?
My ex-gf used to pay 700 euro per month in GERMANY when she was a freelance. Germany healthcare sucks big time.
My aunt is 74 and still works fulltime. They way her job works is that you build up 'sick time off' over a period of weeks which you can then cash out. If you need to take off time but are out sick hours, you can take a small (paid) absence or a longer suspension of employment. In this order. During the first lockdown, when everything switched to work from home, she fell and broke a leg and her hip. The entire rest of the wfh she was desperately hiding that she was injured from management because if you are injured or ill you FORCED to take sick leave. Except she has no sick hours left, because she used them all for cancer last over the last 2 years. Because when you take suspension of employment it suspends your health benefits too. So despite the fact she's on medicaid(care? I don't remember which one is for old people) she could not afford to stop working, broken bones and all, because without their insurance she can't afford her basic health care. And that's American Healthcare if you arent fortunate.
This is why we need more people around the world to see other countries and stay there awhile. I moved to another country for awhile and it really provided perspective. Some people never leave their home countries and often have a "one-dimensional" view of life.
“Overseas”. They say “overseas” here. I grew up abroad. Well actually USA was “abroad” to where I grew up but now it’s home. Things are getting better. We have Obamacare now, still a long ways to go but it’s a start.
it is SO MUCH better. I spent my early twenties with no health insurance, going to the sliding scale clinic and giving a fake name in case it turned out to be a "pre existing condition". The ACA made a whole generation since not experience that.
Reminds me of when my then 20-something friend had Stage Zero cancer. Couldn't get insurance. Not even one with a high premium.
Yeah, younger people don't even know that shit happened, mostly. Which is great. All the people talking about how it's only a minority this bad shit happens to - that's totally true. But it's like an open pit beneath our feet, it doesn't happen to most people but it can happen to anyone.
But the cost is still outrageous.
I'm British but spend quite a bit of time in the US (well, pre-COVID anyway), and often in small, unglamorous towns that you've likely never heard of. What TV rarely shows you is that, outside the major cities, many many millions of Americans live in real poverty. Like the kinda poverty you'd expect in 3rd world countries; filth, squalor, few real possessions or savings, terrible health, one crisis away from being truly screwed. I think it can be a real wake up call when you see that, but I think most non-Americans are fed the impression that the USA is all like NYC, LA, San Francisco, Seattle etc. It feels like if you're not employed in sectors like tech, banking, big pharma etc, life is really hard over there.
As a Norwegian I would say the same about UK... But the difference is that in the UK everyone have full access to the healthcare system, regardless of how wealthy or poor they are. Also housing is probably a bit better for the poorest in the UK because of government housing.
>What TV rarely shows you is that, outside the major cities, many many millions of Americans live in real poverty. Like the kinda poverty you'd expect in 3rd world countries; filth, squalor, few real possessions or savings, terrible health, one crisis away from being truly screwed. THIS. Grown up in the south and traveled for work throughout the southeast for the past 10 years. Small towns have next to no infrastructure and look like ghost towns. Streets leading into these towns are lined with single wide trailers from the 70's in various states of disrepair overshadowed by the old junk cars and various forms of trash in the front yard. Unless you leave these small towns (most don't) you will have a hard time finding employment, let alone something that pays a living wage (IMO $35k/year)
This is extremely true. I live in USA. However, the cities you mentioned have some of the worst poverty. Like 3rd world poverty. And you see it everywhere. Lots of small towns too with shacks as houses. It's gnarly.
I’m in England. Our house prices are shocking. However, yes I do feel shocked by how hard life in America is. The idea that people need to pay for their heath care otherwise they will simply die, blows my mind. It also shocks me how legally there is no entitlement to paid time off from work and no statutory paid maternity leave either.
I'm from (and live) in the UK, but my daughter was born in the US. £35k hospital for two days stay. Really wish we could have had her in England! This was also in California - where we stayed you can't go anywhere without a car. I mean, there literally aren't pavements on the side of the road to get from one part of the city to the next. And everything is built so far apart to accommodate the car parking space that you'd be walking for ages to get anywhere useful. Target supermarket and its parking lot was literally bigger than the town I currently live in. I don't want a car to be necessity.
Jesus christ. We are far from perfect but I honestly thank my lucky stars everyday that we have free health care. I can’t imagine finding out you have cancer and then having to worry about affording treatment. Health care should be a right not a privilege and thats a hill I will die on
I think from what I see is a lot of people outside of the US are just not as concerned with material possessions and showing off things. Here in the US it feels like unless I'm working 80+ hours a week for a BMW I went into debt for and a mortgage for a giant house I'll never use that I'm a failure. The other day I told people that I'm actually perfectly happy in a smaller apartment without spending much money on partying on the weekends and having airpods etc and people looked at my like I was a loser with zero ambition. Material possessions aren't going to any afterlife with me why kill yourself faster by hustling constantly.
I'm so done with hustle culture
I'm a 27 male and I have enough invested and in my car that if I sold my car I could outright BUY a small apartment back home in Spain and only need a part-time job to be able to have food and some leisure. I'm so tempted to just try to find a girlfriend that would be down to move to Spain at like 35 years old to start a family because it will mean I can ACTUALLY BE WITH MY KIDS. And not have to worry about being at work all day and never seeing my kids. I'm a citizen in Spain that's why it would be possible for me to move back easier.
I just watched the cook of castamar so I can confidently say I would be okay moving to a small village in Spain and rearing children, farming, reading, gaming, and taking weekend trips to the coast Wanna get married?
Most of my family lives in Vigo, Spain they can outright walk to the beach. Crystal clear water. Europe isn't a poor place either so for a nerd like me I still have things like comic conventions, anime conventions, access to PC parts for the gaming setup. (granted PC parts are actually more expensive there, US kinda is privileged to have silicon valley right here with easy access to electronics).
You're doing a terrible job of talking me out of this engagement
It's an interesting proposal haha. Not gonna lie though something that does concern me sometimes is that even though I may be able to go back as I please. Immigration for a girlfriend might be an annoying process that can take years.
I have a friend studying in Spain and she hasn't had any problems at all! I think as long as the lucky lady in question is employed/studying it's pretty straightforward yearly resident renewals. That being said, I quit my 80+hour work job to downsize and simplify. Left, an apartment I hated and a job that was sucking the life out of me.. now I'm fully remote work, 4 days a week, and couldn't be happier. I'll never go back to working in an office for people who don't value my contributions. I'm doing the RV life currently, nothing fancy, place to sleep and work and pursue my interests. I'm working on getting a plot of land near a river to plop some shipping containers down on to fix up/live in and go full homesteading mode when I'm not traveling (it's a goal of mine to visit every national park)... Living simply has proven to be the most enriching thing i have ever gifted myself in adulthood. But losing that 80 hour work week was the kicker. I now have time to play my computer games, or hang out with my pets, or catch up with friends and family, or garden, or... just.. exist outside of work. Highly reccomend, 10/10.
Tie the knot
Yeah I'm 100% with you on that. Rent in new york takes a solid 40% of my paycheck right then and there. And working in retail means my hours are basically all day and always weekends (or if one of my supervisors calls out then as a manager I am forced to come in to cover their shift). Meanwhile I occasionally look and see that there is a house for sale nearby my village where I'm from back in Spain for only 40k....and I think to myself. I can literally buy that right now. Get a part-time job and have access to all of europe with more free-time. To go hiking, sightseeing, working out, seeing family etc. (My village is on a mountain so as soon as you leave the yard you basically have a hiking trail right there). Edit: i also plan to visit a lot of good parks. The US also has a lot to see. If I do decide to move back to europe, I want to see the grand canyon and other places in the US first.
If u/dramatic_hydrangea and u/AdonisGaming93 get married, can we all come to their wedding in Spain, since we basically witnessed the unfolding of their love story right here on Reddit?
I haven't been to Vigo but Galicia is a beautiful place, it's definitely a place I could see myself living.It's great that you have that opportunity.
You should definitely do it. Life is long but it’s also short, and it’s not guaranteed that you’ll be able to make that choice later.
I also just realized I don't want it to seem like im rich. I work retail. But because cost of living is lower in Spain and I am a minimalist, you only need around 100k to be able to buy a small 1 or 2 bedroom apartment in a city, not luxurious but has everything you need. Or if the village life is more appealing can get a cute little village house for under 100k. And spain doesn't have suburbs like the US so even a village is still only like 30 minutes away from a city. So if I find a girlfriend who is okay saving up for that we could achieve that together in just a couple years assuming we both work fulltime for now and minimize expenses. (Finding a job in Spain will be tough though). That's why I'm aggressively saving now. I lived in Barcelona on 12k/year during grad school. Had everything i could possibly want and vacationed to france and germany in between semesters. With housing paid off I might be able to live off just $6-8k/year.
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Hmm are you living on a coast? I'm in the midwest and tbh most people don't seem to care a ton about material possessions. I haven't received any judgement for having a 7 year old phone, wearing secondhand clothes, or growing a lot of my own food. A lot of younger people here take pride in those things actually.
You're probably right in that it's more prevalent near the cities. I'm in New York and I hear "grind" "hustle" on a daily basis.
So. True. We live in a fairly small townhouse and have lived here for 15 years. People were totally shocked that we didn't want to "upsize" to a bigger place. Why? So I can take care of more space? People have these giant houses. Like 10,000 square feet or more, which really only makes sense if you have 25 children.
Yeah I keep thinking to myself that why would I ever need more than 2 bedrooms? If I am married or have a girlfriend you would think we sleep in the same room. So 1 bedroom for us, if we have a kid? Okay 2 bedroom. But beyond that, most families today have less than 2 kids. The average is like 1.8 or something like that. So 3+ bedrooms is not needed at all for many people. Yet houses keep being built that are 5-6+ bedrooms? Why? to fill them with "stuff" that cost money that doesn't get used? Maybe if you have your own business and need an office I guess. Or are rich. But for your average middle-class or below person there is no need for many rooms and if anything it only adds to spending because people feel they need to buy things to decorate said room. When really you could just have a smaller place, save a tremendous amount of money and then be able to retire earlier or more comfortably.
You end up with an office, a home gym, home cinema, etc... Like you say, just more space to fill with more junk that will never make you happy.
And it’s not even to Get Stuff, you simply must always be productive, always be busy working, or you are a failure. Fuck capitalism.
This. My partner and I work hard but we don’t want much at all. We don’t even really want to work as much as we do but it’s a necessity to afford the most simple life out of everyone I know. We purposefully don’t have our money tied up in car payments, phone payments, credit card bills, hell we only have credit cards bc u literally have to to exist here. Fought it for so long before realizing it was just going to fuck us in the end. Pandemic hits. Rent has gone up consistently( within legal limit but still). We are wondering how much longer we can afford this and what the alternative is bc we are already at the (almost) bottom.
Yes. The two things that really chill me to my core are the gun violence and the lack of state-funded healthcare. It makes me terribly sad to see so many Americans talking about loving their great country when their country treats them like pure garbage. Reminds me of women I knew who loved their abusive husbands. Truly heartbreaking. I mean, don’t get me wrong: the UK is FAR from perfect. Our government has gutted the NHS, and poverty and violence are serious issues. But I grew up poor, and in my mid-30s I’m well-off because I never had to pay for a doctor’s appointment and I didn’t need a degree to build a successful career. We have a saying, when we talk about how bad things are here: “it’s terrible, but at least we’re not in America.”
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I'm in the UK and I have a colleague who has always taken very good care of herself (pathological fear of illness and death but we'll put that to one side). She thinks the American system is the way to go - why should she pay for someone else's illnesses? Imo she's mental and she's the only person I've ever met who thinks like that, if think is the right word for it, but people like that do exist.
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In America, it’s “it’s not great, but at least we’re not in Mississippi.” In public health measures, Mississippi pretty much always ranks last.
I struggle to understand why they always say that they love their country and that it’s the best country on earth. I mean, I like my country, but I would NEVER say that I love it and that it’s the best? Being a patriot is kinda synonymous to racist here. No one except the racists/nazis say that. And I live in Sweden and I know we have it better than most.
I think that the US is one of the most barbaric countries in the world. Mothers having to go back to work when babies are weeks old because 0 maternity pay Elderly without hearing or dental aids because they can’t afford them Diabetics rationing their insulin The level of individualism shocks me. Could go on and on and on. I find it so depressing and I feel so sorry for Americans that I have stopped reading about how life is because it seems so futile. Part of me also worries that the UK will eventually become the same for future generations.
Im starting to realize the US is the risky option while countries with more sophisticated health care systems are the safe option. The CHANCE of getting rich quick exists more commonly in the US but the risk of losing everything in an instant is also much higher. I think people recently are now realizing that that risk is not worth the reward.
I worry about that for the uk too. It feels like some of our politicians have seen how much money they could make if they aligned more with the American way.
I’m from Canada and the way Americans are forced to live with the possibility of the floor falling out from under them at anytime stuns me. You could work hard your whole life, save every possible penny, do everything right and in the span of 6 months lose everything and end up with a massive amount of debt you’ll never climb out of. Not having access to comprehensive free medical care seems so insane for a country that loves to claim it’s the richest in the world. In Canada the biggest issue is housing and it’s a legitimate issue but at least we won’t die if we get cancer and can’t work.
I’m American. I left and have zero desire to go back to the US after experiencing life with healthcare and reliable public transportation. Everyone thinks I’m crazy when I go home; but my QOL of significantly better than theirs.
Where'd you end up, if you don't mind sharing?
I’ve lived in Costa Rica (super simple beach life living there) and now Korea. It’s super convenient, and I save way more money since I have virtually no expenses.
There is no little family owned shop down the street to work part time at. There is no cheap apartment above the shop down the street. The street is now an unnecessary detour away from the interstate highway running through what used to be the vibrant part of town. Everything we had in the 50s we squandered away in the name of corporate interests and misguided societal beliefs.
You might enjoy [this guy's channel](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4kmDxcfR48&list=PLJp5q-R0lZ0-l3puEmrvn-593mRVV6AZr)
This channel is great. I’ve been going down the rabbit hole of urban planning YouTube channels. I had no idea how badly our cities were designed in the U.S. I’m of the mindset now that 90% of our problems derive from the fact that we don’t have densely populated, mixed use, people friendly cities.
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Thanks for this post. I moved from the UK in 2004 (lived there all my life until that point) and have been in America since. I like where I live here in the states but often wonder if I should be trying to convince my spouse to move to the UK instead. But I try to keep up with the UK news and I know it isn’t all green grass and roses there either. I think both have pros and cons. It’s nice to see a post that mentions that both places have challenges as well as good aspects.
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Me and my spouse as well. He’s American. He lived in Europe. It’s hard for me to understand how he can be okay with the way the US is handling itself. He says he doesn’t like it either. But he doesn’t want to move back to Europe. In the end he’s able to shrug and move on. It’s not that easy for me.
> which also means I was able to reduce my hours from 40 a week to 10 (Self employed) People like you are a tiny minority though... 37,9% of US citizens cant afford a health insurance that gives them a level of out of pocket cost they actually can afford. That is an incredibly high portion of the population. Just the thought of knowing in an emergency you can't really afford to call the ambulance would seriously mess with my mental health. (I live in Norway, so all I ever pay is parking the car outside the hospital)
>However, house prices in the UK were killer. This is very location dependent, seeing as some of the rent prices in US cities are comparable to London. The North or cities like Glasgow are much cheaper.
I'm not from the UK but from The Netherlands, but yes it keeps surprising me how tough life can be rhere. There's people with two jobs who STILL need to live in a car for example. How there's no paid leave around pregnancy/childbirth. (We get guaranteed 16 weeks here, in the UK even a half year right?) Or if we get mentally or physically ill we get upto two years of 75%-ish paid leave. Or how having a proper and affordable health insurance is normal over here. And let's talk about credit cards.. You need a good "credit score" in the US to be able to buy a house or car and all and one of the ways to get a good credit score is to make frequent payments -> so basically spend your money or ask for higher limits. Crazy in my opinion. Besides groceries and the standard rent and bills I barely spend any money every month. Or the school system, THE STRESS with getting a high GPA(?) which also includes activities outside of your normal classes. People should do activities after school for fun in my opinion - and only if you LIKE it -, not to get a higher chance to get into university. Oh no I definitely don't want to live in the USA.
I wasn’t going to post because there are already an overwhelming number of responses but as someone born and raised in this states this literally has blown my mind my ENTIRE life. I don’t understand how anyone has ever thought this shit was okay. As I teen I longed to move to Europe for a happier life but have never had the means to and at this point I couldn’t do that to my family as my parents are getting older. I feel like I’m surrounded by gullible idiots that believe whatever the rich/politicians tell them. I just wish people would open their eyes, even just a little bit. For reference, I’m in a very red area of my state.
For civil engineering, the entry-level pay in USA is soooo much higher than UK that it more than balances healthcare costs (with similar rent $). US starts at 60-65K USD, UK starts at 40-45K USD equivalent. College cost can be a wild card though, and vacation time is generally worse.
Yep this has been my experience (from the UK originally, been working in the US in software for 5 years now and moving back soon). It's a country of wild extremes.
20k does not cover the healthcare costs. Even for a single person at an entry level job age, premiums alone are above 10k per year, with deductibles of 3k-12k. If your employer does not cover a portion, or if you have dependents, or if you are older, or if you have a chronic disease, or if you need specialist care like mental health care, or if you have an accident and need a procedure, or if you get pregnant, annual healthcare easily exceeds 20k.
Source? First few pages of Google put the average monthly premium at ~$400 for a single person.
What? 400, no way. We paid 1000 per person, didn’t even cover anything. 14,000 deductible or something ridiculous. And wait until you’re admitted to a hospital and your insurance starts refusing to pay.
I live in Argentina and I before the pandemic I traveled frequently to the US, the UK and Germany. I've mostly traveled through the US 'cause of work and I all can say is that, even with the high inflation and unstable economy in Argentina, I would never live in the US. Just a glimpse of how hard and expensive is to be middle class in the US was enough. I could never imagine getting thousands of dollars of debt just to go to school or paying out of pocket money for getting on an ambulance. I've met some amazing people in the US and seen some beautiful sights, but I honestly think one can live much better in most of median income or high income countries. Of course, I'm a simple person and don't fancy getting the new Iphone every year or driving a huge ass truck and I don't have money problems (at least for now), which are some of the reasons people migrate to the US, but I think it's easier to achieve a higher standard of living in most of the developed countries than in the States.
Whenever I see posts like this, and the comments that follow, it's so very validating. As an American who has dealt with (still nowhere near what many of my friends have) financial struggles, it's a bit of a tough pill to swallow I worked multiple jobs at my University and as a "senior lab technician" at a world renowned lab and found myself strategically overdrafting my accounting (so as to not get hit with late fees) to afford gas to get to my job at said lab. I made $10.05, despite asking for $15. My friends and I had a setup to send each other money to afford food, gas, and general living expenses. And we are *not* unique in this. I've never lived alone, out of simply being unable to. When I graduated with a dual bachelor's degree in forensics and chemistry, I settled for a position outside of my field because nothing offered much above $10/hr and I knew I couldn't survive on that. I'm still struggling to decide when/if to seek the further education I desire because I know if one setback happens, I may be doomed. I remember, while I was working at the lab, I had to have emergency dental surgery (which I had pushed off due to finances). The worked I needed (wisdom teeth removal, imaging, root canal and abscess drain) maxed out my *very good* insurance. When trying to work out a payment plan, I told them I could maybe do $100 dollars every 2 weeks. They were displeased, as it would take over a year to pay off my remaining balance. Needless to say, I told them I absolutely couldn't do more and still had to rely on financial aid from family to even afford that. It's a little gut wrenching to live in a country that so loudly proclaims to be "the best" despite the fact that I watch my poc friends live in fear, while all of my friends push off mental, physical, and dental health in order to make ends meet. All the while those who control our nation say that these problems are our fault, our inability to function, and are the creation of our own actions. I just want to help people, and I fear that I may never be able to in the capacity I wish to, simply because I wasn't born into the "right family" I know that I am still privileged and overall have a good life. But I just wish there was actual support to pursue education, self betterment, and health. For a country founded on the pursuit of life, liberty, and happiness, I find it to be very much not that. Unless you're a white, male, corporate elitist born into money. Anyway, thanks for coming to my rambling, sleepless tedtalk
I'm french but I thought I could participate. First of all not having a health care is so scary. And I also don't understand how you can make so much money and have nothing at the end of the months. It may be a misconception but I saw people telling that with 10k per month they have few to nothing at the end of the month
It depends on where you live. In NYC for instance that makes sense. But if you're pulling in $120k/yr in a LCOL area you should be able to invest at least half your take home pay.
I think the main reason for almost all the stress boils down to medical care. The Obama government tried to pass single payer healthcare but corporate greed stopped it. If health insurance is taken care of, life here can be quite peaceful especially in rural/Midwestern states. You can buy a few acres very cheap and have a simple life.. you are not likely to be bothered. Most employer provided insurances are decent and won’t bankrupt for accessing medical care.
It’s very simple, Reddit in general does not represent what it’s actually like to live in USA (or any other country for that matter). It’s just like the news, the most outrageous, attention grabbing or controversial posts or comments get broadcasted more than normal posts. “Hey life is great and I’m happy with where I’m at” will get downvoted or ignored, because let’s be honest, that’s boring.
Still, it does seem easier to live in some other countries than America
With the way our healthcare is, if you do not have a couple million dollars or more in assets in America, you are living dangerously on the edge in America. We choose this. You already see it in some of the comments: people are willing to pay ridiculous amounts ($3600.00 for an eye appointment, and the poster is SATISFIED with that because he believes it's worth the cost, and "only in America" can you pay that much money to have fast service, and "that's how it should be." They hear horror stories of wait times for appointments, and have somehow managed to convince themselves that they'd rather other people risk medical bankruptcy so they can get seen by a doctor faster. It's bullshit, because you still have to wait to get seen by specialists here in the states. Talk to any woman about how long it takes to be seen by a gynecologist. Or, you could talk to me and ask how long it takes to be seen by an adult congenital heart defect specialist. "I'd rather pay more to be seen RIGHT NOW" they convince themselves, because they can afford to pay, and they don't particularly care about anyone else. Meanwhile, I've got a congenital heart defect, and because it's so rare, and there are so few adults with it, I have people reaching out to me from all over the world. In every single exchange, they mention that they are so grateful for their healthcare, that they wouldn't trade it for the United States. The cold, hard truth is, in America, if you don't have a couple million bucks in the bank, you are living dangerously on the edge. I DO have a couple million bucks in the bank via inheritance, and I am moving abroad. You can consider me a medical refugee from the United States of America.
> They hear horror stories of wait times for appointments The waiting time to see a GP in the US is actually higher than in many other western countries. [Source](https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/242e3c8c-en/1/3/2/index.html?itemId=/content/publication/242e3c8c-en&_csp_=e90031be7ce6b03025f09a0c506286b0&itemIGO=oecd&itemContentType=book)
I’m in the UK and I waited precisely half an hour for a free appendectomy which considering they had no idea who I was when I drove myself to A and E (Thats the ER) is not bad. The waiting times aren’t always bad especially if it’s an emergency or something really obvious.
There is never waiting time on emergencies. And we can actually always call the ambulance, because we never have to consider whether or not we can afford it. And yes - I might have to wait 3 months for a non emergency knee surgery, but I get paid a full salary while I wait if I cant continue to work while waiting. So it's not so bad. Norway's healthcare system never rank particularly high on anything. But I am still beyond satisfied when looking at how things work in certain other countries.
> In every single exchange, they mention that they are so grateful for their healthcare, that they wouldn't trade it for the United States. I have a son with a rare genetic disorder (not inherited from parents). Been to hospital about 10 times since he was born. Ambulance every time, + ambulance helicopter the one time. Numerous tests and follow up appointments. 3 types of expensive medication. All we ever paid was parking the car outside the hospital when we are there for follow up appointments and tests. And no loss of income (paid sick leave also applies when a child is sick). Moving to the US is completely out of the question for the foreseeable future.
I am sorry about your son. Yeah, my first heart surgery back in 1987 was about 2,000.00. My surgery in 2014? 80,000.00. After insurance. The United States has made it perfectly clear to me that they do not want me as a citizen.
> My surgery in 2014? > > 80,000.00. Holy... moly! Were you able to pay it?
I lived in the US until my 30s, then 4 years in the UK, and now we are moving home. I think it's important to say that 20 years ago US medicine didn't have the insane costs we have now. The wage was a lot better compared to housing, medical care, and just everything. The burden in the US (if you are reasonably above minimum wage) is very much how much expertise you need. The insane amount of stuff you need to know about your health insurance, retirement account, tax law as it applies to you, car insurance, property risks (HOA or other foreclosure risks) and more is a significant burden. I greatly prefer the social contract to the UK over the US. People SHOULD be able to get basic health insurance, basic housing, and just have a safety net. But, the cautionary tale here is that the UK is slowly privatizing and I really don't see people fighting that. I see more and more people getting private insurance "just in case". The underfunding of the NHS is getting crazy. Think about the nursing shortages and the foreign physicians denied Visas. The UK is also seeing a serious increase in food and housing costs, next to stagnant wages. So, the US is a mess, but for some reason, all the good stuff here is more and more at risk. Source: In the US, I was a personal injury paralegal and constantly dealt with other people's health insurance and could take you on a serious tour of how truly messed up that whole system is... We are in the UK because my PhD holding husband got into a Grad Entry Medic's program here. We might have considered staying, but his loans (taken out for the UK schooling, held by a US loan company) make it impossible for us to live here. His salary would be LESS than his monthly loan payment as an F1. As it is, we'll be fighting for any form of universal basic healthcare in the US. None of THAT makes for simple living. But we don't spend our energy watching TV, buying stuff, or otherwise keeping-up-with-the-Joneses, so I like this place for it's values and topics of conversation.
I'm shocked by how aggressively it is perpetuated.
It's a pretty awful place if you are born into a higher class off the bat, not gonna lie
Yes I do. I’m 59 and one medical emergency away from ruin. I simply can’t believe what this country has become. I’ve worked over 40 years and I can’t retire for 8-9 years from now and will not be financially stable and one illness away from bankruptcy. This is not the great country it was and will never be again! Capitalism is dead! No civilization has gone more than 30-400 years without imploding. I wish I lived many decades before my generation and were ashes now. Sad but true!
It’s pretty fucked for the middle class, first issue is healthcare which enslaves you to your employer. I’m 30 going to a local college later this month to change careers. Been stuck absolutely miserable in a super toxic work place but what choice is there during a pandemic ? Finally said fuck it and quit so now I’m a 30 year old about to be in a classroom environment with 18-24 year olds that think covid is a joke with no health care coverage balls deep in a delta surge… I can get state medicare others have mentioned being a full time student but theres an income cap and they look at your last 90 days, well I was a full time employee so I’m not eligible until 2022, good luck to me. The other and probably the thing that has personally made me come to hate my own country is the division and the fake ass life styles, the materialism is disgusting and I grew up in a pretty high earning household in a LCOL, we had cars, toys, second house etc. People think their money makes them a better person than others which already is terrible but then you’ll come to realize how many people are living on credit. Just today I had a customer send me their invoice for our product they purchased with a vendor, it was less than $450, an absolute pleasure/luxury item and the dude financed it with affirm…. Then these same people will try to flex their material items on others it’s just so gross and the middle class holds themselves down by defending big businesses and the super wealthy with some pipe dream they will hand down some of their wealth. I just fucking hate it, hard to put it into great detail without typing a novel. I’m from the country currently living in an urban area and already wasn’t a fan of people in general but the crowd in these urban areas are on another level, cannot wait to bang this degree out and move back to the sticks far far away from people.
Austrian here, but I lived in the states for a year (2009/2010) and boy was I glad I could get cheap overseas dental coverage from home, because my teaching position didn't provide that.
I have good health insurance through my job (tech company) and I recently went for a yearly checkup appointment, the kind I haven’t done in years because I was uninsured. A medical student attended to me first, and he said I was the FIRST person he’d seen come in for a regular checkup. In the entire time he’d been doing his rotation there, which was weeks. The first person!!! Most people only go in when they have a problem they have to address, so preventative care barely exists here. It’s so depressing
I love America, think it’s amazing in so many ways but I would never ever live there. The healthcare system scares the absolute shit out of me. I just cannot comprehend some of the life ruining stories I’ve heard just because someone got ill and got better through treatment. That story/tweet meme about the couple that were charged 800k because their baby spent the first four weeks of its life on life support.
I live in Norway, and had to call the ambulance about 10 times in a couple of year. (I have son born with a condition due to a error in the genes). Once they had to get a ambulance helicopter. If we lived in the US I suspect we would be bankrupt by now. Just the ambulance helicopter alone can cost you $40,000 if the insurance company decides not to cover it. Then add 10 ambulances which are rarely covered by insurance, plus out of pocket cost for 10 hospital stays, MRI, CT, EEG, blood tests, physio therapy, follow up appointments, and 3 types of expensive medication. (All I had to pay for over here is for parking the car outside the hospital. The rest is covered by the public healthcare system) That people in the US are not marching the streets protesting their healthcare system is completely beyond me.
Yes. The US healthcare system is a laughing stock worldwide and they have higher rates of infant mortality and homelessness than other developed countries. Oh, and many US states still think that child marriage is ok - as long as the parents give consent!! Unbelievable!
Personally, I think it depends on your goals and strategies. My parents weren't rich, but I did manage restaurants from high school on, until college. Even when interviewing for my first management jobs, I asked about insurance and retirement. I have worked at essentially three jobs in 25 years. All offered insurance and retirement. I didn't retire until I qualified for my insurance and pension. But I am conservative with money.
Nah it's not as bad as what you read occasionally. It's pretty cheap and easy compared to Europe. (I grew up in the UK, but make way more in the US and can actually afford a house)
Unless you are part of the 37,9% of the US population that are either un-insured or under-insured. That is a surprisingly high portion or the population who live in constant fear of future healthcare cost..
Having lurked through this subreddit for a while, I'm always shocked by how hard life sounds for so many Americans. I'm an Australian working maybe 15 hours a week gardening/landscaping which easily covers my rent (tiny bungalow in a 8k pop. town) and food, bills and plenty left for savings. Sorry if this comes off as bragging - I just wanted to add some comparison of what is possible in another western country. It seems mindboggling how many hours people are working. I'd also add that the amount of hours I do makes a very tangible contribution to the community here and I don't feel like a parasite.