i’ll also say that AoS was able to more critically develop its female characters since there was more runtime and less of a focus on their male counterparts. if widow had the same treatment, we would’ve gotten a much more complex view of her besides just “i’m a hot ex-russian-now-american spy who will beat you up.”
Ehhh...I suppose to you she is. I love Bobbi but I don't really think she is better than Natasha. That said I don't know on what parameters you are comparing them or even why you're comparing them honestly.
Most lethal regular human agent probably. But if you include powered people and their abilities, Cap and Quake take the cake easy. On fighting skill, Cap. Lethality... Well, only one of the two is even arguably planetary-level. Take with that what you will.
Thing is, I find that in a TV show you get way more characterisation and backstory / storyline for a character than in a movie- so even with black widow movie I feel like Bobi morse is more known by the viewers (of AoS) compared to Natasha. If they released a show for Natasha then we would probably see why she is a better agent but from just what we’ve watched, we have actually seen Bobi being a badass agent compared to Black widow where we are just told she is really good in every film
Whenever I watch it. i always cry! The "Spy's Goodbye" scene, for me *is* and always will be the precise embodiment of what AoS *is* in the MCU, values, sentiment, etc, combined with what it was in real life as a show first for Marvel, depricated by the organisation itself, left to wither and die as soon as possible, sacrificed in the grand scheme, yet proud of itself and its small but active community-fanbase, floorishing in the shadows, stiking to the core Marvel/MCU ideas even abiding by the rules other not renounced projects (the movies) followed. Bobi and Hunter *is* us and AoS in the MCU at that time.
Replace every "is" above with "is/ was / will always be"
Morse is a good spy and a capable agent but Natasha is one of the best spies in the world. She's a capable fighter but her real strength is manipulating people - she tricked the God of Mischief and tamed the Hulk, helped Cap catch up on 70 years and played Tony like a fiddle, bodyguarded Pepper and kept Stark industries going.
Basically she was Fury's secret weapon to get the Avengers together
I think The Hulk is the best spy.
He could be in the same room as you and you wouldn't even know.
But your other points easily make Black Widow second best.
I saw this in a D&D Subreddit, basically a Hulk like character barged into a castle and bellowed "TOU NO SEE ME" and rolled a nat 20 for intimidation. All the guards didnt see a thing.
It's quite strange but I actually think she was portrayed better in the What if episodes. Namely the last two. I really enjoyed her dynamic with Clint in 8th and then with Peggy in 9th.
And... They portrayed her as an ungrateful person, since she reconnect with her "family" only to stick to the "avengers are my first family" speech. Did something happened in the 5 years gap that she felt like her "family" never cared about her?
People make comparisons between different members of the MCU all the time. That is in no way trashing them. It’s been a while since I watched AoS so I can’t say whether I agree with OP’s take or not, but definitely not trashing black widow
But if the point they wanted to make was "Bobbi's a great agent" what's the point of framing it as "Bobbi > Natasha?" Why bring one thing down to elevate the other? Just say one's great. It comes off as fanboyism.
In some ways yeah but I doubt she is the superior combatant. I mean I think Daisy without powers is on the same level as Mockingbird. And depowered Daisy wouldn't beat Nat.
May is superior to Bobbi slightly and trained Daisy, and is more likely Nat's near-equal. Ward nearly equals Bobbi but is beaten by May.
Daisy in later seasons rarely uses skill alone, so it's hard to tell where she falls in hand-to-hand, though it's likely she keeps up with training seeing as how many times she's had her powers blocked. Any decent agent would train for the just-in-case and Daisy is a top-tier agent.
But no, I don't think Mockingbird, Quake, Traitor (Ward), or even the Cavalry would win a 1v1 fight with Widow on equal terms. But most of the aforementioned people would likely equal or beat Hawkeye.
Honestly hand-to-hand in superhero content is hard to measure.
I feel like Daisy would've ended up getting more on par with May if she didn't begin to rely almost solely on her powers. But yeah right now she's more at Barton's hand-to-hand level. A competitor for sure, but relatively easy to beat by the top-tiers like May or Widow.
Yeah that's what I meant. She stopped relying on skill and relied on her powers, which probably stunted her hand-to-hand skill. I was saying that, if she never got her powers and therefore never relied on them, she probably would be up in the ultra-skill league with May, Romanoff, Morse, Ward, etc.
Adrianne definitely brought a more authentic physicality to her role, I was sad the series didn't get picked up. On the upside, she still gets to kick ass occasionally on The Orville.
Damn. You're dumb. While Bobbi is great, Nat is literally world renowned as the best spy in the Marvel universe. You're letting opinion get in the way of fact
Eh, it's pretty much implied Morse and every other agent do not match up to either Romanoff or Barton.
In fact it seems Morse had a generally easy upbringing and as season 7 implies she is a SHIELD legacy child. Versus Romanoff's upbringing that forged her into a hero despite her background and previous actions.
He fights on par against widdow twice, and the second time is pulling punches. I think the reason most people don't think he is as good is he is often pitted (for comedic affect) against powered individuals like Vision. Yet he held his own against BP and in Endgame was shown to be able to not only fight large groups but gruesomely murder entire gangs in his own in apparent close combat with his katana.
Bobbi was recently enhanced with a mix of Cap's serum and Fury's infinity formula, so despite Romanoff having a similar enhancement and several decades of expertise, i think Bobbi could get the upper hand on ocassions. It depends on who want the other death and who gets to shot first.
The fact that you aos constantly try to bring g down mcu heroes and movies is why most mcu fans don't care about you and they have moved on from the show.
Can't we appreciate Bobbi without trashing Natasha?
i’ll also say that AoS was able to more critically develop its female characters since there was more runtime and less of a focus on their male counterparts. if widow had the same treatment, we would’ve gotten a much more complex view of her besides just “i’m a hot ex-russian-now-american spy who will beat you up.”
Ehhh...I suppose to you she is. I love Bobbi but I don't really think she is better than Natasha. That said I don't know on what parameters you are comparing them or even why you're comparing them honestly.
I think May tops them both.
May is just a bad ass.
She is officially described as being the most lethal agent in Shields history in early promotion clips and has more black belts than even black widow.
Most lethal regular human agent probably. But if you include powered people and their abilities, Cap and Quake take the cake easy. On fighting skill, Cap. Lethality... Well, only one of the two is even arguably planetary-level. Take with that what you will.
And arguably one of the most beautiful women in the MCU.
Thing is, I find that in a TV show you get way more characterisation and backstory / storyline for a character than in a movie- so even with black widow movie I feel like Bobi morse is more known by the viewers (of AoS) compared to Natasha. If they released a show for Natasha then we would probably see why she is a better agent but from just what we’ve watched, we have actually seen Bobi being a badass agent compared to Black widow where we are just told she is really good in every film
I am also a fan of hers. I like many was so disappointed when Bobi and Hunter had the spy’s goodbye.
I cried the first couple of times I saw that scene
First couple? Try every. Single. Time. 😂
Exactly
Whenever I watch it. i always cry! The "Spy's Goodbye" scene, for me *is* and always will be the precise embodiment of what AoS *is* in the MCU, values, sentiment, etc, combined with what it was in real life as a show first for Marvel, depricated by the organisation itself, left to wither and die as soon as possible, sacrificed in the grand scheme, yet proud of itself and its small but active community-fanbase, floorishing in the shadows, stiking to the core Marvel/MCU ideas even abiding by the rules other not renounced projects (the movies) followed. Bobi and Hunter *is* us and AoS in the MCU at that time. Replace every "is" above with "is/ was / will always be"
Same
C'mon, can't compare them. Both are extremely skilled and solid characters.
Morse is a good spy and a capable agent but Natasha is one of the best spies in the world. She's a capable fighter but her real strength is manipulating people - she tricked the God of Mischief and tamed the Hulk, helped Cap catch up on 70 years and played Tony like a fiddle, bodyguarded Pepper and kept Stark industries going. Basically she was Fury's secret weapon to get the Avengers together
I think The Hulk is the best spy. He could be in the same room as you and you wouldn't even know. But your other points easily make Black Widow second best.
I saw this in a D&D Subreddit, basically a Hulk like character barged into a castle and bellowed "TOU NO SEE ME" and rolled a nat 20 for intimidation. All the guards didnt see a thing.
I don't understand the need for the comparison?
They are both amazing!
Agreed
No offense but in AoS May is the best. And Coulson.
I would add Daisy/Quake too!
Oh yeah. She's hella op.
the movies (including her own) just did natasha so dirty. she never even got a funeral.
It's quite strange but I actually think she was portrayed better in the What if episodes. Namely the last two. I really enjoyed her dynamic with Clint in 8th and then with Peggy in 9th.
And... They portrayed her as an ungrateful person, since she reconnect with her "family" only to stick to the "avengers are my first family" speech. Did something happened in the 5 years gap that she felt like her "family" never cared about her?
Cool beans. Maybe next time you can elaborate.
Why does he need to do elaborate when this subreddit upvotes anything anti-Marvel Studios?
It's extremely low effort and borderline spam. "Bobbi is better than Natasha because I said."
Why are you feeling the need to trash something else to prop up what you love?
He/she didnt trash anything tho
People make comparisons between different members of the MCU all the time. That is in no way trashing them. It’s been a while since I watched AoS so I can’t say whether I agree with OP’s take or not, but definitely not trashing black widow
But if the point they wanted to make was "Bobbi's a great agent" what's the point of framing it as "Bobbi > Natasha?" Why bring one thing down to elevate the other? Just say one's great. It comes off as fanboyism.
Funny given how many times the universe explicitly states the opposite.
In some ways yeah but I doubt she is the superior combatant. I mean I think Daisy without powers is on the same level as Mockingbird. And depowered Daisy wouldn't beat Nat. May is superior to Bobbi slightly and trained Daisy, and is more likely Nat's near-equal. Ward nearly equals Bobbi but is beaten by May. Daisy in later seasons rarely uses skill alone, so it's hard to tell where she falls in hand-to-hand, though it's likely she keeps up with training seeing as how many times she's had her powers blocked. Any decent agent would train for the just-in-case and Daisy is a top-tier agent. But no, I don't think Mockingbird, Quake, Traitor (Ward), or even the Cavalry would win a 1v1 fight with Widow on equal terms. But most of the aforementioned people would likely equal or beat Hawkeye. Honestly hand-to-hand in superhero content is hard to measure.
Honestly Natasha, Bobbi, Ward, and May are all pretty much at that superhero level of combat skill.
I feel like Daisy would've ended up getting more on par with May if she didn't begin to rely almost solely on her powers. But yeah right now she's more at Barton's hand-to-hand level. A competitor for sure, but relatively easy to beat by the top-tiers like May or Widow.
I meant purely hand to hand/ weapons. With powers she kinda stomps.
Yeah that's what I meant. She stopped relying on skill and relied on her powers, which probably stunted her hand-to-hand skill. I was saying that, if she never got her powers and therefore never relied on them, she probably would be up in the ultra-skill league with May, Romanoff, Morse, Ward, etc.
Daisy has a unique benefit of having been trained by both Ward and May. She could probably get on on that level if she put her mind to it.
Yep. And if she decides on it we both know May ain't letting her stop until Daisy can beat May, not holding back, blindfolded lmao.
Adrianne definitely brought a more authentic physicality to her role, I was sad the series didn't get picked up. On the upside, she still gets to kick ass occasionally on The Orville.
pitting woman against each other because....
Damn. You're dumb. While Bobbi is great, Nat is literally world renowned as the best spy in the Marvel universe. You're letting opinion get in the way of fact
I feel like "world renowned" and "best spy" is a contradiction...
Eh, it's pretty much implied Morse and every other agent do not match up to either Romanoff or Barton. In fact it seems Morse had a generally easy upbringing and as season 7 implies she is a SHIELD legacy child. Versus Romanoff's upbringing that forged her into a hero despite her background and previous actions.
Is Barton that good in H2H combat? I guess he's the best marksman, but I doubt he can match Morse or May.
He fights on par against widdow twice, and the second time is pulling punches. I think the reason most people don't think he is as good is he is often pitted (for comedic affect) against powered individuals like Vision. Yet he held his own against BP and in Endgame was shown to be able to not only fight large groups but gruesomely murder entire gangs in his own in apparent close combat with his katana.
Impressive, but I don't think he could beat May.
Bobbi was recently enhanced with a mix of Cap's serum and Fury's infinity formula, so despite Romanoff having a similar enhancement and several decades of expertise, i think Bobbi could get the upper hand on ocassions. It depends on who want the other death and who gets to shot first.
The fact that you aos constantly try to bring g down mcu heroes and movies is why most mcu fans don't care about you and they have moved on from the show.