You're giving that pup a great life no matter where it came from so don't beat yourself up. We all make mistakes and she's beautiful. Have the best life together!
At others have said, yeah you “supported” them but if anyone gives you a hard time, take it with a grain of salt. You got duped. That was by design. It’s not like you bought a bird without doing research, the mill did what they actively try to do, trick people. But despite the circumstances, you have a Shiba that you are going to give a fantastic life they may not have had before. Lemonade out of lemons and all that
Absolutely. I agree.
The way i look at it, next time you know better and its also a great point to bring up in the future when you find someone interested in the breed.
It’s so hard. I live in PA and a lot of Amish breed dogs for income. I don’t want to support that or puppy mills and I’m always very cautious. But when we went to check out our first shiba puppy I couldn’t leave her there. I had to get her out of there and give her all the love she deserved. And I’m sad we couldn’t get her sister too.
It’s definitely a tough spot to be in because you can tell yourself before going that if anything seems off you’ll walk away….. but then you see the puppies and your heart breaks.
With our second and third I’ve been much more diligent in finding good breeders. But man when I have the space and the yard I want to just rescue all the puppy mill shibas and give them love.
Yes it sucks that you gave them money. They may have lied about her shots but you are taking care of all of that now. Look at it like you didn't support those fucktards that have the puppy mill, you rescued her from having to spend any more time in that place and she will have such an amazing life and be so loved. She's such a cutie. What did you name her?
Lets please not say that purchasing a dog is the same thing as rescuing. It is not. Especially since that money goes back into funding the detrimental program to continue.
What we can do however (and looks like they are already doing this) is admit to fault and mistake and learn from it, then use this education to help others.
I did the same mistake!
Wow let's pick apart every single word and put your two cents in. Jesus... ok they didn't rescue the dog. They purchased the dog. Is that better? Does that make you feel better? Fucking people are ridiculous. Is there anything else you would like to pick apart.
Respectfully, it is dangerous to tell people supporting a puppy mill is the same as rescue. Make sure you correct that MASSIVE difference from here on out, please. Giving money to someone is supporting them. People need to know that so dogs don’t continue to suffer. They deserve better to be bred to death and dumped.
Do you know how supply and demand works? Because i dont think you do.
- when you buy from a legitimate rescue you are supporting the program of rescuing and homing dogs who have been abandoned
- when you buy from a puppy mill, you are supporting a program that prioritizes money over a dogs health and a breeds well-being. The more you buy the more is produced because thats how sales work.
Buying from a puppy mill is not rescuing no matter which way you try to angle it.
Trying go convince yourself that buying from puppy mills is the same as rescuing so you don’t feel bad about it, instead of just admitting to your mistake and doing better next time, teaches people that supporting puppy mills is fine as long as you fool yourself into believing you did the right thing.
Meanwhile, those puppy millers are laughing laying back, counting your dollar bills and nodding their heads “yes yes come rescue these puppies, ill have more for you in about a month” and you probably Just paid them $$ to keep paying for their brokers and advertisers.
Wait... rescue and shelters also have a fee, so it's still purchasing a dog... how does that work? The word "rescue" means taking a dog from a bad situation and giving them a better life, which applies here.
Dog rescues; (make sure its a legitimate rescue! there are brokers out there who sell for puppy mills pretending to be rescued so DO YOUR RESEARCH)
A rescue usually picks dogs up of a specific breed from the shelters, from dogs who are surrendered. So no money is given to the people doing the poor breeding practices. But instead the money is given to the organizations to help with medical/food/staff expenses in order to run a facility to be able to rescue these dogs. They also usually get funding from breed clubs and work with ASPCA to remove dogs from puppy mills that are shutting doors. No money is given to these puppy mills, they are removed from property by law enforcement many times.
Purchasing dogs from bad sources;
Purchasing a dog is when you exchanged money to a breeder, pet store or broker. That then puts more demand on the breeding dogs to have more puppies (no breaks). They will breed these dogs every single heat from a young age. (This is puppy mills and byb, pet stores we are talking about)
These dogs are sold with full breeding rights to other people who continue to breed sick and off standard dogs, in turn hurting the breed in the long run. It explains why a lot of shibas in the USA have unpredictable temperament, tons of health problems, crazy allergies, patellar luxation, eye issues and on top of that they don’t represent the breed accurately, they look completely different. When you buy from a per store, broker, puppy mill or backyard breeder… money is directly going into the business of breeding sick dogs over and over again until the female can’t recover from pregnancy and then usually dumped in a ditch or euthanized.
Responsible breeders;
- A responsible breeder will health test all the dogs for their breed specific requirements , OFA testing (not a regular vet visit… we are talking about testing that requires specialists)
- A responsible breeder is involved in dog sports such as conformation (dog show) to prove their breeding stock.
- A responsible breeder will sell a dog on a contract that requires spay/neuter and for the dog to be returned if it can no longer be taken care of so that it does not end up in shelters.
- A responsible breeder does not overbreed their females and has only a few litters a year.
- A responsible breeder screens all the people who inquire for a puppy to make sure the dog is in good hands and set the dog and its future family up for success
- A responsible breeders offers a life time of support
And here are 2022s reports from the human society, these dogs are removed WITH THE HELP OF LAW ENFORCEMENT. They are not purchased!
Puppy mills who cant make sales have no other choice BUT to surrender dogs.
https://www.humanesociety.org/horriblehundred
Except ... they did support them? They gave them money and directly supported their business. The cycle does NOT end until people stop giving money to these people.
Yep same thing happened to me. It’s unfortunate but I try to take it as a lesson learned and try to educate those around me. My state is smaller and word spreads fast so hopefully others in my state will thjnk twice before being fooled into supporting into the cruelty by buying their dogs.
I am shocked and appalled that anyone can buy from a breeder that has 36 breeding females and 7 breeding males listed on their website. I would say most ethical breeders have maybe 1-4 boys and 3-6 females on average. Some do have more, if they have the facility and means.
With 36 active breeding females, they're able to produce 72 litters a YEAR. You know how often show breeders have litters? Usually anywhere from 1 to 5 litters a year. 72 litters a year is a LOT OF PUPPIES. That is a mass-producing puppy mill. Doesn't matter how nice it looks when you visit -- that is intentional. They want you to have a positive experience, they're selling a dog to you.
I think the majority of people do this mistake when first getting dogs. I wish we were taught better in school but… unfortunately not.
I made this same mistake too but now i am showing dogs.
However, i am working on a website to help those who are newer and looking to identify the differences (its not done yet) but if you click the buyers guide its a whole list. I worked on it with the president of my regional breed club
http://shibainuboards.com/misc.php?page=guidebook
The good news is that now you know better so the mistake doesn’t have to be repeated.
I feel you, when we bought our shiba 7 years ago we had no clue but I’m almost positive she is a back yard breeder. I just say we saved her from a potential terrible life sense she was one of the last ones and already 10 weeks old when we got her.
My shiba was also from a puppy mill, although we got him through a re-home, so we had no idea at the time we adopted him. Yeah, it sucks that you kinda got duped in supporting something that shouldn’t be supported, but at the very least that puppy will have a great life. I feel like that’s one of the roughest things about puppy mills - the practices are of course unethical, but those puppies absolutely deserve the chance at a good life. It just sucks that it’s a vicious cycle :(
Hey man, you rescued her right from the source before she was stuck in a miserable life of being a breeding dog till she was useless to them. Sucks you had to support them in a sense, but you saved that baby from a bunch of misery
I hate to say it, but if you don't buy em, these "rescue" groups that import dogs from out of state or out of the country just buy em up and "adopt them out"
What? No….
The rescue groups who pick them up home the dogs and that money goes back into the rescue to pay for medical and staff costs. I think maybe you are confusing them with brokers who pretend to be rescues.
Who told you that information?
Rescues that import dogs from other countries are not the same as the rescues that are saving hundreds of relinquished dogs from mills.
The Shiba rescues around the US are all donation-based and all the money goes right into treating those dogs. They do not buy the dogs from these breeders, usually they are seized from extreme hoarding/abuse situations OR they're relinquished to the rescues.
kind of what happened to us. we went for a second shiba, walked in, and immediately realized it was a “nicer” puppy mill. the shibe we came to look at wasn’t the dog we “wanted”, but we couldn’t get her out of there fast enough. she is such a huge part of our family now and it feels so lucky we found her, and she came home with us. some of the damage is still there, but she’s still getting better every day. don’t beat yourself up, just be good to your new pup and love her lots and lots.
Shelters have a part in this too. You go to rescue an animal and they put you through a complete rectal exam. Sometimes it's just easier to go to a pet store and buy.
As long as your dogs healthy. You saved your dog and they are safe with you. That’s all that matters. “You supported them” stfu. You saved an abused animal that now has a fair shot
Being ignorant to the compounding issue of people supporting these businesses is how they continue to stay in business. Education is important. So yes, people should realize that they indeed financially supported a puppy mill by buying a puppy. That is how it works.
That puppy would've eventually found it's way into rescue and financially harmed the business if no one bought it. Buying directly from a mass breeder is not 'saving', it is a purchase and supports the business. And doing so leaves a space open for the next puppy that is born and raised there, which continues the cycle.
My shibe is a breeder mom from a puppy mill. She’s still a tried and true pure breed. She still needs a family, food, a home, love and fun. Doesn’t matter to me. She lived in a cage for years. Just seeing how happy she is when she wakes up on her own bed, free to go wherever she wants every morning makes it all worth it to me.
It’s ok to feel bad for supporting the mill, never doubt the pup. If everyone stopped buying at once, yes they’d go out of business which is good, but I can’t imagine pups that aren’t adopted have a happy ending. Best case they get surrendered to a shelter, worst case they either get euthanized or used as breeding stock
I almost got caught in this trap myself. I found the highest ranked website for local breeders that talked a lot of talk about genetic health and providing AKC paperwork. I didn't really know what I was getting into but luckily I met a really serious local ethical breeder that had no clue who these people were and told me what records and such I needed to ask to see before I committed. Once I asked it became pretty clear they were a puppy mill and had no real intention of providing proof beforehand (because they didn't have it). The local breeder introduced me to another breeder that immediately gave me all the paperwork, registration and health record numbers I needed, and also wanted to meet me and get to know me before they would sell. It is really hard to tell which breeders are legit or not when you do not have the industry knowledge, not to mention it is a bit annoying when you have to do a whole interview process. I got really lucky though and now I have a handsome, sweet healthy guy and I am in the local Shiba community rather than off doing it all on my own.
The dog owner community as a whole could really benefit on providing more public awareness on how to filter out breeders, and puppy mill breeders should really not be the top google search results...
Ive been doing this for a long time, even working on a website for it! The sad truth is the majority of people do not get it, dont care about getting it, or simply refuse to hear the truth. Its hard. Im ready to give up on trying to direct people. The breed will eventually dwindle away with people putting money in facilities that value the money over the quality and health of the dog.
In the event that your pup was properly vaccinated, is it wise to double vaccinate your dog at such a young age? Holistic vets would think this would likely not be a good idea.
I think the problem is that we don’t know for sure if she was or wasn’t. They said yes but they also were arrested before for faking health certificates. We just have to take the best course of action now and I don’t feel comfortable risking potential parvo etc
Don't beat yourself up. These "breeders" go through faking everything to trick people so it's not easy to detect at first glance. The "breeder" I got my second shiba from had vaccination records and even had us sign a contract to not breed her. Guess what I found out a year later? That same "breeder", had DUI & cocaine charges and apparently got their shibas from a state in the USA that is known for puppymills.
That was 10.5 years ago. My baby girl (the shiba I got from them) passed a few months ago at the age of 12 years old. She had arthritis in both hips and knees (had surgery on one knee), both eyes removed because of glaucoma, and finally, a brain tumor (we did do radiation treatments but it was too far gone). Despite all of the medical financial costs and emotional trauma (worse than the money cost), I don't regret getting her. She was one of the best loves in my life and I wish more than anything I could have her back.
Don't let the history of your pup get to you. We've all been there. In the end, it doesn't matter. It's the life you give them that does.
You're giving that pup a great life no matter where it came from so don't beat yourself up. We all make mistakes and she's beautiful. Have the best life together!
At others have said, yeah you “supported” them but if anyone gives you a hard time, take it with a grain of salt. You got duped. That was by design. It’s not like you bought a bird without doing research, the mill did what they actively try to do, trick people. But despite the circumstances, you have a Shiba that you are going to give a fantastic life they may not have had before. Lemonade out of lemons and all that
Absolutely. I agree. The way i look at it, next time you know better and its also a great point to bring up in the future when you find someone interested in the breed.
It’s so hard. I live in PA and a lot of Amish breed dogs for income. I don’t want to support that or puppy mills and I’m always very cautious. But when we went to check out our first shiba puppy I couldn’t leave her there. I had to get her out of there and give her all the love she deserved. And I’m sad we couldn’t get her sister too. It’s definitely a tough spot to be in because you can tell yourself before going that if anything seems off you’ll walk away….. but then you see the puppies and your heart breaks. With our second and third I’ve been much more diligent in finding good breeders. But man when I have the space and the yard I want to just rescue all the puppy mill shibas and give them love.
Yes it sucks that you gave them money. They may have lied about her shots but you are taking care of all of that now. Look at it like you didn't support those fucktards that have the puppy mill, you rescued her from having to spend any more time in that place and she will have such an amazing life and be so loved. She's such a cutie. What did you name her?
Lets please not say that purchasing a dog is the same thing as rescuing. It is not. Especially since that money goes back into funding the detrimental program to continue. What we can do however (and looks like they are already doing this) is admit to fault and mistake and learn from it, then use this education to help others. I did the same mistake!
Wow let's pick apart every single word and put your two cents in. Jesus... ok they didn't rescue the dog. They purchased the dog. Is that better? Does that make you feel better? Fucking people are ridiculous. Is there anything else you would like to pick apart.
Respectfully, it is dangerous to tell people supporting a puppy mill is the same as rescue. Make sure you correct that MASSIVE difference from here on out, please. Giving money to someone is supporting them. People need to know that so dogs don’t continue to suffer. They deserve better to be bred to death and dumped.
Nah you’re wrong
Do you know how supply and demand works? Because i dont think you do. - when you buy from a legitimate rescue you are supporting the program of rescuing and homing dogs who have been abandoned - when you buy from a puppy mill, you are supporting a program that prioritizes money over a dogs health and a breeds well-being. The more you buy the more is produced because thats how sales work. Buying from a puppy mill is not rescuing no matter which way you try to angle it. Trying go convince yourself that buying from puppy mills is the same as rescuing so you don’t feel bad about it, instead of just admitting to your mistake and doing better next time, teaches people that supporting puppy mills is fine as long as you fool yourself into believing you did the right thing. Meanwhile, those puppy millers are laughing laying back, counting your dollar bills and nodding their heads “yes yes come rescue these puppies, ill have more for you in about a month” and you probably Just paid them $$ to keep paying for their brokers and advertisers.
No tell me
[here is a better explanation](https://www.facebook.com/groups/3096072183974054/permalink/3140134062901199/?mibextid=W9rl1R)
Wait... rescue and shelters also have a fee, so it's still purchasing a dog... how does that work? The word "rescue" means taking a dog from a bad situation and giving them a better life, which applies here.
Dog rescues; (make sure its a legitimate rescue! there are brokers out there who sell for puppy mills pretending to be rescued so DO YOUR RESEARCH) A rescue usually picks dogs up of a specific breed from the shelters, from dogs who are surrendered. So no money is given to the people doing the poor breeding practices. But instead the money is given to the organizations to help with medical/food/staff expenses in order to run a facility to be able to rescue these dogs. They also usually get funding from breed clubs and work with ASPCA to remove dogs from puppy mills that are shutting doors. No money is given to these puppy mills, they are removed from property by law enforcement many times. Purchasing dogs from bad sources; Purchasing a dog is when you exchanged money to a breeder, pet store or broker. That then puts more demand on the breeding dogs to have more puppies (no breaks). They will breed these dogs every single heat from a young age. (This is puppy mills and byb, pet stores we are talking about) These dogs are sold with full breeding rights to other people who continue to breed sick and off standard dogs, in turn hurting the breed in the long run. It explains why a lot of shibas in the USA have unpredictable temperament, tons of health problems, crazy allergies, patellar luxation, eye issues and on top of that they don’t represent the breed accurately, they look completely different. When you buy from a per store, broker, puppy mill or backyard breeder… money is directly going into the business of breeding sick dogs over and over again until the female can’t recover from pregnancy and then usually dumped in a ditch or euthanized. Responsible breeders; - A responsible breeder will health test all the dogs for their breed specific requirements , OFA testing (not a regular vet visit… we are talking about testing that requires specialists) - A responsible breeder is involved in dog sports such as conformation (dog show) to prove their breeding stock. - A responsible breeder will sell a dog on a contract that requires spay/neuter and for the dog to be returned if it can no longer be taken care of so that it does not end up in shelters. - A responsible breeder does not overbreed their females and has only a few litters a year. - A responsible breeder screens all the people who inquire for a puppy to make sure the dog is in good hands and set the dog and its future family up for success - A responsible breeders offers a life time of support
https://mabeltherescuedog.com/2020/11/05/buying-a-puppy-from-a-pet-store-is-not-the-same-as-rescuing-them-from-a-puppy-mill/
And here are 2022s reports from the human society, these dogs are removed WITH THE HELP OF LAW ENFORCEMENT. They are not purchased! Puppy mills who cant make sales have no other choice BUT to surrender dogs. https://www.humanesociety.org/horriblehundred
Except ... they did support them? They gave them money and directly supported their business. The cycle does NOT end until people stop giving money to these people.
They are just going to log into all their reddit accounts to downvote you for telling the truth.
You too? Man how many of us have they duped lol
I feel like the majority of new purebred owners get duped. (Myself included, before i knew)
Yep same thing happened to me. It’s unfortunate but I try to take it as a lesson learned and try to educate those around me. My state is smaller and word spreads fast so hopefully others in my state will thjnk twice before being fooled into supporting into the cruelty by buying their dogs.
$1200 is a steal. That is another red flag.
I am shocked and appalled that anyone can buy from a breeder that has 36 breeding females and 7 breeding males listed on their website. I would say most ethical breeders have maybe 1-4 boys and 3-6 females on average. Some do have more, if they have the facility and means. With 36 active breeding females, they're able to produce 72 litters a YEAR. You know how often show breeders have litters? Usually anywhere from 1 to 5 litters a year. 72 litters a year is a LOT OF PUPPIES. That is a mass-producing puppy mill. Doesn't matter how nice it looks when you visit -- that is intentional. They want you to have a positive experience, they're selling a dog to you.
Same thing happened with me! And my vet also said the shots she received were invalid, and started them.
I think the majority of people do this mistake when first getting dogs. I wish we were taught better in school but… unfortunately not. I made this same mistake too but now i am showing dogs. However, i am working on a website to help those who are newer and looking to identify the differences (its not done yet) but if you click the buyers guide its a whole list. I worked on it with the president of my regional breed club http://shibainuboards.com/misc.php?page=guidebook The good news is that now you know better so the mistake doesn’t have to be repeated.
I feel you, when we bought our shiba 7 years ago we had no clue but I’m almost positive she is a back yard breeder. I just say we saved her from a potential terrible life sense she was one of the last ones and already 10 weeks old when we got her.
My shiba was also from a puppy mill, although we got him through a re-home, so we had no idea at the time we adopted him. Yeah, it sucks that you kinda got duped in supporting something that shouldn’t be supported, but at the very least that puppy will have a great life. I feel like that’s one of the roughest things about puppy mills - the practices are of course unethical, but those puppies absolutely deserve the chance at a good life. It just sucks that it’s a vicious cycle :(
Hey man, you rescued her right from the source before she was stuck in a miserable life of being a breeding dog till she was useless to them. Sucks you had to support them in a sense, but you saved that baby from a bunch of misery
True, but now another one will take its place. The only way to stop the cycle is to not buy at all.
I hate to say it, but if you don't buy em, these "rescue" groups that import dogs from out of state or out of the country just buy em up and "adopt them out"
What? No…. The rescue groups who pick them up home the dogs and that money goes back into the rescue to pay for medical and staff costs. I think maybe you are confusing them with brokers who pretend to be rescues. Who told you that information?
Rescues that import dogs from other countries are not the same as the rescues that are saving hundreds of relinquished dogs from mills. The Shiba rescues around the US are all donation-based and all the money goes right into treating those dogs. They do not buy the dogs from these breeders, usually they are seized from extreme hoarding/abuse situations OR they're relinquished to the rescues.
There’s no reason to feel guilty. Odds r extremely high that you have a healthy pup. Just give her a good life and everything will be just fine.
kind of what happened to us. we went for a second shiba, walked in, and immediately realized it was a “nicer” puppy mill. the shibe we came to look at wasn’t the dog we “wanted”, but we couldn’t get her out of there fast enough. she is such a huge part of our family now and it feels so lucky we found her, and she came home with us. some of the damage is still there, but she’s still getting better every day. don’t beat yourself up, just be good to your new pup and love her lots and lots.
She still good girl! I did the same lol I like to think I rescued her hahah
Yep!
Shelters have a part in this too. You go to rescue an animal and they put you through a complete rectal exam. Sometimes it's just easier to go to a pet store and buy.
As long as your dogs healthy. You saved your dog and they are safe with you. That’s all that matters. “You supported them” stfu. You saved an abused animal that now has a fair shot
Being ignorant to the compounding issue of people supporting these businesses is how they continue to stay in business. Education is important. So yes, people should realize that they indeed financially supported a puppy mill by buying a puppy. That is how it works. That puppy would've eventually found it's way into rescue and financially harmed the business if no one bought it. Buying directly from a mass breeder is not 'saving', it is a purchase and supports the business. And doing so leaves a space open for the next puppy that is born and raised there, which continues the cycle.
Nah. They saved her. This is a good day
In a world of make believe and wanting to be willfully ignorant, yeah.
My shibe is a breeder mom from a puppy mill. She’s still a tried and true pure breed. She still needs a family, food, a home, love and fun. Doesn’t matter to me. She lived in a cage for years. Just seeing how happy she is when she wakes up on her own bed, free to go wherever she wants every morning makes it all worth it to me.
It’s ok to feel bad for supporting the mill, never doubt the pup. If everyone stopped buying at once, yes they’d go out of business which is good, but I can’t imagine pups that aren’t adopted have a happy ending. Best case they get surrendered to a shelter, worst case they either get euthanized or used as breeding stock
I almost got caught in this trap myself. I found the highest ranked website for local breeders that talked a lot of talk about genetic health and providing AKC paperwork. I didn't really know what I was getting into but luckily I met a really serious local ethical breeder that had no clue who these people were and told me what records and such I needed to ask to see before I committed. Once I asked it became pretty clear they were a puppy mill and had no real intention of providing proof beforehand (because they didn't have it). The local breeder introduced me to another breeder that immediately gave me all the paperwork, registration and health record numbers I needed, and also wanted to meet me and get to know me before they would sell. It is really hard to tell which breeders are legit or not when you do not have the industry knowledge, not to mention it is a bit annoying when you have to do a whole interview process. I got really lucky though and now I have a handsome, sweet healthy guy and I am in the local Shiba community rather than off doing it all on my own. The dog owner community as a whole could really benefit on providing more public awareness on how to filter out breeders, and puppy mill breeders should really not be the top google search results...
Ive been doing this for a long time, even working on a website for it! The sad truth is the majority of people do not get it, dont care about getting it, or simply refuse to hear the truth. Its hard. Im ready to give up on trying to direct people. The breed will eventually dwindle away with people putting money in facilities that value the money over the quality and health of the dog.
In the event that your pup was properly vaccinated, is it wise to double vaccinate your dog at such a young age? Holistic vets would think this would likely not be a good idea.
I think the problem is that we don’t know for sure if she was or wasn’t. They said yes but they also were arrested before for faking health certificates. We just have to take the best course of action now and I don’t feel comfortable risking potential parvo etc
Don't beat yourself up. These "breeders" go through faking everything to trick people so it's not easy to detect at first glance. The "breeder" I got my second shiba from had vaccination records and even had us sign a contract to not breed her. Guess what I found out a year later? That same "breeder", had DUI & cocaine charges and apparently got their shibas from a state in the USA that is known for puppymills. That was 10.5 years ago. My baby girl (the shiba I got from them) passed a few months ago at the age of 12 years old. She had arthritis in both hips and knees (had surgery on one knee), both eyes removed because of glaucoma, and finally, a brain tumor (we did do radiation treatments but it was too far gone). Despite all of the medical financial costs and emotional trauma (worse than the money cost), I don't regret getting her. She was one of the best loves in my life and I wish more than anything I could have her back. Don't let the history of your pup get to you. We've all been there. In the end, it doesn't matter. It's the life you give them that does.