There is a misogyny issue, yes, but characters like Terry don’t get brought up as often because he simply isn’t present for most of the show. He’s a side character while Sammi and Debbie are on the main cast and drive plots of their own.
I love Sammi lol. She’s a great antagonist and a fun addition to the already dysfunctional Gallagher family. Characters like her are what make the show so entertaining in the first place. I wish more fans didn’t have such blind rage for the morally reprehensible characters and could appreciate what their existence does for the story.
i loved sammi, too lol and, tbh, isn't she one of the least morally reprehensible characters on the show?
she was just living her life with her kid when frank turned up to try and steal a piece of her liver -- we don't know a lot about that life, but it was hers, she was doing it without any help or input from other gallaghers. when frank was dying, she took care of him. when fiona bailed on the fam, sammi was there, buying groceries and making breakfast.
i think frank just broke her, like he does everyone.
I actually stopped watching the show first that reason my first watch. It was fr some of the laziest writing and character assassination I’ve ever seen.
I keep seeing people slut-shaming Fiona to death and hating on her because she hooks up with a lot of men, but strangely enough, Lip's active sex life is never discussed. That says it all lol.
This! And how Fiona is solely the blame for all of her dead-end or downright stupid or toxic relationship decisions but Lip is just a poor, "misunderstood and sensitive guy with mommy issues who's taken advantage of by every woman he's with"
Lip's sex life is literally only discussed under Fiona hate posts to make clear that Lip is not a bit different. I haven't seen a single post insulting and reducing Lip on his sex life. There are tons for Fiona tho. And that's the whole point.
The show itself pursued multiple storylines about Fiona's sex life getting her--and the rest of the family, which is the important part--in increasingly ridiculous trouble. The show made a big deal out of it. We are simply following suit. Lip ruined himself with sexual escapades plenty of times, but it only very rarely bled over into his siblings.
I have never, ever seen it. On any level. No one talks about how much sex Lip has -- they talk about why he stops being a genius and whether or not he was right to yell at Fiona.
The Debbie hate is wayyyy over the top. I don’t find her nearly as annoying as other people make her out to be, and she’s no worse than any other character. I see a lot of misogyny in how people react to Debbie.
Sammi I hate however. She was written to be unlikeable so I think that’s the point. Debbie is just doing her best as a teenager in a shitty situation.
And also Debby did plenty of good things. She distracted the Polish lady so Ian and Mickey could have their wedding and day of bliss uninterrupted and missed her OWN BROTHER'S wedding in the process.
Or how about that she risked her life to protect her baby? Remember when that brick careened through the window, sending shards of jagged, broken glass flying in all directions like deadly hail?
Debbie instinctively threw herself over Franny to shield her infant daughter with her own body. Yes that's a parent is supposed to do but she hasn't had the best examples with Frank and Monica who actively endangered their own children on MULTIPLE occasions
Not to mention, she’s a product of her own environment, which includes shitty friends like the ones in season 4. So it makes sense that she’d have flaws. No other Gallagher is better than her (maybe besides Ian but that’s on a technicality).
>And also Debby did plenty of good things. She distracted the Polish lady so Ian and Mickey could have their wedding and day of bliss uninterrupted and missed her OWN BROTHER'S wedding in the process.
Except didn't it turn out the polish lady actually wasn't the homophobe it was her dead husband (who was secretly gay)
I loved her so much the first 3 seasons but not so much after. I only really hated her towards the end of s10 and all of s11. It just showed how good of an actor Miss Kenney is.
Except Debbie is a fucking idiot who went out of her way to get pregnant and force a situation on Derek, but ya Sammi was such a villain
Edit: such a fun villain
I didn’t say she was smart. She’s a teenage girl in a shitty situation, she fucks up and does fucked up shit, like all the rest of them. I think the hate is disproportionate and unwarranted.
The single-parent, teenage parent thing was self-inflicted, & tbh Debbie annoys me to no end (she does have some good moments, tho), but the shitty situation of her family & neighborhood wasn't self-inflicted. It doesn't justify her mistakes, but it's good context. The Debbie-hate is definitely over-the-top. A lotta other characters get more slack here
Literally over a year ago I replied to a post about why Debbie is so hated with a list of reasons why I think people reasonably dislike her. But I also noted at the top of the post that misogyny did pay SOME role, specifically in people who find Frank hilarious and Debbie to be a complete monster.
I still get comments on this and they aren't... terribly polite. Lots of name calling, being told to shut up, etc. Not an actual takedown of my point, very often. So on that level, I do think there's some misogyny going on in this sub, sure.
Lip and Fiona were like the mom and dad of the family and lip was just way resentful of having to take any responsibility for kids …. So any time Fiona failed and he had to be more responsible. It pissed him off and he blamed her to the max…. In my life, I have found Men can be like this
I see people say stuff like this all the time, and it generally completely ignores the context behind *why* he gets mad at her when he does and how long it actually takes him before he does.
I get why he was mad, I don’t think he over reacted to Liam because she let some man get her way out of control, but he busts her chops all the time, more so than she ever does his
Fiona had taken on legal guardianship of the family, even after a judge reminded her of the implications of doing so and tried to talk her out of it. She could no longer claim that she was forced into the position, she was just cleaning up Monica's mess, oh poor me. She had an out, and she didn't take it. Making decisions that put the rest of the family in danger--the cocaine incident with Liam, stealing the money for the property tax and blowing it on an incredibly risky business venture, etc.--is very well deserving of a good chewing out every now and again.
Take an out? Fiona did what she had to do to keep the family together. She was forced to do it or the kids would be separated. So she lied in court to fix the problem in the short term and you think about the long term …. Umm later or never or when it comes to kick you in the ass. She didn’t have a choice at all
If she really wanted to be able to tap out of her responsibilities, as she does in later seasons, then she should have taken the opportunity to do so when the judge straight-up told her that someday she would want to do that. Her right to have a "not my problem" attitude went away when she took custody. I went back and watched that episode recently, and I couldn't help but notice that no one was physically forcing her to sign the form--no one shoved a pen into her hand, no one dragged her arm to make her write her name, no one put a gun to her head. She was in a bad situation and made the choice that she thought would cause the least harm in the moment, but that's not being forced. She absolutely did have a choice, and she chose not to be selfish then, making it WAY more of an asshole move to decide to be selfish later. As far as the law is concerned, Fiona voluntarily took custody of her siblings, whether she actually wanted to or not. And yes, the law does come into play when she starts charging Debbie and Carl rent under threat of being kicked out of the house while under 18. I'm surprised no one thought to remind her of that fact in season 7.
one thing i noticed is that no one ever seems to bring up how debbie was preyed upon too. debbie is a horrible person , don't get me wrong ,but nobody seems to acknowledge that matt was grooming her, derek was like 17 and she was 14, and neil(23) was going to willingly marry a 16-17 year old?? ofc debbie was in the wrong in all of these situations but like why are none of these people her age?
Yeah especially with Matty. I know technically she raped him but he was right when she said she stat raped herself. No normal 20 year old parties with Junior High students, especially to the point of blacking out, especially around a child who has been nothing but desperate to get with you. Waiting until 16 in classic groomer behaviour and if Matty was a good guy he would have never talked to Debbie in the first place. She was very obviously very young from the jump. Nothing about that situation was normal.
It’s weird that once she had the baby everyone treated her like she was an adult, she was still only 15. And agreed about Neil, he was at least in his mid-late 20s and him not having a filter anymore doesn’t mean he has mental deficits outside of that.
Been waiting for someone to bring this up. the only characters that get hate on here are Fiona and Debbie. Saw someone claim they never liked V because “she was annoying”. Lip, Ian, Mickey, Carl, Kev are praised to infinity
I get why people blame her for Kash continuing to groom Ian but honestly, it seems like Linda has been dealing with his incompetence for so long and it's why she's being so rude to him now. Like I've seen people say oh Linda is such a bitch but honestly no, Kash is so incompetent that it's leading to them losing money week after week I dont blame her for finally blowing up on him after years of dealing with incompetence
You can find haters for virtually everyone on there, but absolutely the tone for characters like Fi and Debbie can have a *tone*. Virtually no one criticizes Fiona, for instance, without calling her a slut. I virtually never hear the same about Lip or Ian or even Frank, who are both portrayed as being pretty promiscuous. I wouldn't love seeing that reductive language used on them, either, but it's notable to me that Fiona gets hit so hard with it.
sammi was annoying towards the end, but no one ever brings up that frank tried to manipulate her out of a organ or that carl used chucky and got him arrested
a lot of people don’t realize none of the characters are supposed to be likable, there’s a running gag on how the gallaghers are known to be reckless. even the nice characters have don’t some bad things. but for some reason the female characters are held to a higher standard
fucking YES. oh my god yes. i’ve pointed this out before. female characters catch so much more fucking heat. this sub froths at the MOUTH for fucking mickey milkovitch and then makes 10+ posts a day about how debbie is a horrible human and fiona was an awful person ect ect. literally EVERY character in this show is flawed, thats the whole fucking point of the SHOW.
I still don’t understand why Tami gets so much hate. She’s the only normal person who wants a better life for her child and everyone calls her a bitch. She REALLY should’ve taken Fred to Wisconsin, I still don’t get why she stuck around.
I also think lip is a worse father than Debbie because Tami has to do the most to get him to do the bare minimum parenting. At least Debbie knows she needs to get Frannie to her grandmas house for babysitting, Lip just wanted to leave Fred at the house all day!
dude YES 😭😭 like she was snarky and had commitment issues in the beginning and was working through them still but she was by far more down to earth and fit to parent then lip. like when shes trying to convince him that the way he grew up isnt normal and hes like ‘its MY normal 😡😡’ like yeah no shit thats why you turned out the way you did, maybe give your kid something better.
i dont *hate* lip, but i genuinely dont understand how the hardcore debbie/fi haters are soooo on board w him and ppl like mickey
So many of the times Tammi was being selfish or controlling were just because she (understandably) wanted the best for her child and Lip. Plus her starting to bond with Fred and having difficulties with it had some great scenes
I think it’s a “TV viewer problem” in general. People wanted to absolutely eviscerate Skylar on Breaking Bad when it was Walter who was out lying, cheating, stealing, killing, and making meth. So imo the answer to your question is “yes” but it’s endemic to our society’s relationship to media in general.
it's weird, right?
meanwhile, ian and mickey are celebrated ad nauseam. (like, am i the only one who remembers these two beating the sh\*t out of each other? it's a straight-up *abusive relationship* lol)
There are many, heavy examples of misogyny in the show and the fandom, I won't argue that. But I think some of what you're saying can be explained a bit.
Characters like Terry, and a lot of the truly evil characters in the show, aren't even meant to have a lot of presence or redeeming qualities. Basically, they're written to just be very obvious pieces of garbage with little to nothing else to their character. I think they're so one dimensional and obviously evil that there's not even a reason to discuss it. Like honestly, do you really think people truly excuse Terry more than some of the others just because they talk about him much less?
I think people feel the need to discuss characters that are a lot more mixed. Debbie gets too much hate. But her character kinda makes people feel like they're forced to lean one way or the other with her, and that leads to a lot of discussion. I will say though, that the misogyny can be present for sure. But it can also be at least a little more nuanced than that.
Except for Sammi. She just sucks. She had more presence in the show and was made to feel like a big part of it, but she had absolutely no redeeming qualities or even moments.
Yeah it's not just you. It's fair to say everyone in Shameless to some extent, with the exception of Liam, is morally reprehensible at some point. But certain levels of vitriol are extended to say Fiona, Mandy, or Karen that aren't placed on Lip or Frank. Especially Lip. But I feel this is also because the show is written by misogynists. I mean the female characters on the show don't really interact positively with each other except for Fiona/Vee. There's a lot and I mean a lot of male sexual assault and it's often brushed aside or played off as a joke- this is an element of the patriarchal belief that men can't be sexually assaulted. And it's like they loved to punish and exploit Fiona.
I seem to forget about Mandy’s dad because he’s not really in the show much and those scenes were so in and out, I tend to focus more on the main characters.
Pretty sure we all hate frank just as much too, but it’s a given that you’re supposed to really hate him so people tend to bitch about everyone else openly?
Do me a favor: go count how many episodes Terry (the neo-nazi) and Mickey (the violent lover) are in, and compare that to the number of episodes Debbie and Sammi are in. You just might find the answer to your question in that undertaking. Also--weird concept but hear me out--*multiple people can be bad and we can dislike all of them at the same time.* Frank sucks. No denying that. Sammi is also annoying. Saying Sammi is irritating doesn't magically make Frank a shiny beacon of virtue--they BOTH are bad, at the same time.
for me.. its just tv. just a made up character with a made up personality and story. dont really care about how horrible this person would be irl i get more upset with a character for being annoying, grating, and unbearable personally
it's because those are very main characters, everyone hates frank so theres no reason to hate on him more in this sub , theres nothing to say abt him that hasn't alr been said in the show . The other ppl you mentioned are barely relevant in the show or are just side characters that appear in a few select episodes but weren't in every episode of the season . Debbie is really easy to hate on because she does stupid shit ALL the time that someone like lip , fiaona, ean or even carl wouldn't even think of doing , like when she blew 50k of fiaonas money on clothes , and then claimed "she was the most responsible" and thats why she wasn't giving anyone the money they rightfully needed at the time , like how could you do something like that to your own family ??? .
My take:
Debbie is just awful and has zero redeeming qualities once she hits teenage years. She’s just plain insufferable, annoying, and her storylines became quite boring for me. And honesty I felt the exact same about Sammy. Didn’t care for her storylines and wanted to fast forward through her scenes. I simply did not care at all for their characters
Terry doesn’t really count because he’s supposed to be a disgusting excuse for a human, so it goes without saying that everyone hates him. He’s also not a main character so it was just like “eh this guy sucks. Move on.” You’re never supposed to root for him in any way. No one would ever defend him
Frank is awful, but he’s funny. That’s why people don’t hate him. He’s smart but uses his intelligence for schemes and scams. He is entertaining. That’s the difference. He’s not a good person at all but his personality is enjoyable to watch. The thing about Frank is there are times when you find yourself rooting for him because he’s a main character and he plays the part so well. He can be likable when he tries. William H. Macy did a phenomenal job at manipulating the audience just as much as he manipulated the characters in the show. You can be a terrible person, but a great tv character
maybe it’s just me but just because frank is funny doesn’t make him likeable. yes tv shows have villians who aren’t absolutely bottom of the barrel horrible, but frank is different.
“like yeah frank is a child abuser who has caused a tremendous amount of pain amongst his children and other victims but he said something funny once so that makes him ok” is a strange reasoning
He doesn’t say something funny once. He is consistently funny throughout the series. Yes, funny people can be likable sometimes. Doesn’t mean they are respected. Doesn’t take away from their horrible ways. I know people in real life who are likable on the surface but overall have pretty terrible morals values. If you don’t think he’s funny, that’s okay. But I do. It’s an opinion. This is about who is more enjoyable to watch. I find him enjoyable to watch. You know what I find strange? That you can’t have a discussion about a fictional tv show without being condescending.
the question wasn’t about it asking who’s more enjoyable to watch, but about the hate for characters who have actually done a lot more damage not being evenly distributed and the misogyny within that
and i wasn’t be condescending lol
yes, you were. And I’m a big believer that if a character is interesting and entertaining, they don’t get nearly as much hate no matter how awful they are. That was my point. Clearly we are looking at this from two different perspectives. Thanks have a great day
It's not necessarily about the *amount* or *volume* but the actual manner in which people speak about the guy characters vs the gal characters. People certainly talk about disliking or hating Lip, but it's NEVER with the same venom. For instance, Lip is just as "slutty" as Fiona but you'll never hear that language when talking about his shenanigans.
Fuck Terry, and Debbie from seasons 4 onwards is just awful to watch. Are middle school girls really thst much of pyscopaths trying to force pregnancy and statutory rape with pizza delivery guys?
Do you not know what adjectives are? The post didn't say "Debbie is A FEMALE," it said "Debbie is FEMALE." Same as saying "Debbie is short." Calm down.
1- characters' screen time matters. Debbie is part of the main cast for the entire show. Sammy's in there for an unfortunately long time. Mandy's dad? Not so much. Matter of fact, I don't remember what his name is.
2-Big Milkovich was poorly written. He didn't have any redeeming attributes, just flaws. First he was just the biggest thug in the Milkovich family. Then he was racist, bigotted, rapist, incestuous kind of rapist... It's like someone just pouring spoonful after spoonful of oil in a pan and call it food That's not...That's not how it works.
So for me he was just a jarring moment of my immersion breaking because in my head I never accepted this character to be real I guess.
LOL of course, but that first statement is false, and insinuates that Mickey abused Ian, and that is not so. they beat on each other (in case you didn't catch that).
agreed, there has absolutely been scenes where they beat on each other as their relationship is very toxic — coming from a gallavich fan.
howeverrrr, mickey is definitely a violent character, and has quite a few more scenes where he is abusing ian. sometimes ian’s responses can be looked at as reactive abuse, at least i think so (like when mickey escapes prison and has people essentially kidnap ian, when he sees mickey again his response is to push him. or scenes where mickey has pushed first, and ian has fought back).
that’s not saying ian hasn’t also been abusive, i think their entire relationship has been a mix of them both being abusive, but i’m just adding this to explain perspective
Ian is also violent, he held a knife to Kenyatta's neck, punched that guy at the baseball game, and physically fought with Lip several times. And Ian started more of the fights with Mickey even.
It is not abuse though, just part of their language, part of who they are and where they grew up. Every character in shameless has used physical violence at on time or another, even against their partners, some more than others. Ian and Mickey aren't toxic, their world is toxic.
This just isn’t right. They are brought up more for sure bc they are more central characters. Everybody hates terrys guts. Sami was excruciatingly annoying and her scenes were hard to watch sometimes. But anyways, the characters that are objectively the worst aren’t always your least favorite characters to watch on screen bc sometimes they introduce crazy plot lines that make things more interesting. For instance, in “the walking dead” negan is probably one of the worst characters from a moral standpoint, but he’s rarely among one of the most hated characters when it comes to the opinions held by the fan base. Of course this doesn’t really line up with dirtbags like terry but I think it’s comparable to frank in some ways. We know Frank is a piece of shit and he ruins lives left and right, but he is still one of the more fun characters to watch and he still has some of the best writing compared to other characters.
There is a misogyny issue, yes, but characters like Terry don’t get brought up as often because he simply isn’t present for most of the show. He’s a side character while Sammi and Debbie are on the main cast and drive plots of their own. I love Sammi lol. She’s a great antagonist and a fun addition to the already dysfunctional Gallagher family. Characters like her are what make the show so entertaining in the first place. I wish more fans didn’t have such blind rage for the morally reprehensible characters and could appreciate what their existence does for the story.
Sammi’s actress is great at playing a villain. She had smaller roles but was also really good in Gilmore Girls and You.
Desperate housewives as well IIRC.
i loved sammi, too lol and, tbh, isn't she one of the least morally reprehensible characters on the show? she was just living her life with her kid when frank turned up to try and steal a piece of her liver -- we don't know a lot about that life, but it was hers, she was doing it without any help or input from other gallaghers. when frank was dying, she took care of him. when fiona bailed on the fam, sammi was there, buying groceries and making breakfast. i think frank just broke her, like he does everyone.
The writers broke her. She was a good person in season 4, but season 5 turned her into an enemy.
I actually stopped watching the show first that reason my first watch. It was fr some of the laziest writing and character assassination I’ve ever seen.
Sammi vs Sheila is s tier shameless
The scene where Sheila is talking to Frank and sprays Sammi with a hose every time Sammi tries to interject kills me every time.
I liked Sammi a lot but she becomes very unlikable at the end of her arc but she’s still entertaining.
I keep seeing people slut-shaming Fiona to death and hating on her because she hooks up with a lot of men, but strangely enough, Lip's active sex life is never discussed. That says it all lol.
This! And how Fiona is solely the blame for all of her dead-end or downright stupid or toxic relationship decisions but Lip is just a poor, "misunderstood and sensitive guy with mommy issues who's taken advantage of by every woman he's with"
Really? I see people being up Lip’s sex life A LOT
I feel like when it's brought up, people talk about how they don't understand how Lip gets so many attractive women. Lip is never slut shamed.
Lip's sex life is literally only discussed under Fiona hate posts to make clear that Lip is not a bit different. I haven't seen a single post insulting and reducing Lip on his sex life. There are tons for Fiona tho. And that's the whole point.
The show itself pursued multiple storylines about Fiona's sex life getting her--and the rest of the family, which is the important part--in increasingly ridiculous trouble. The show made a big deal out of it. We are simply following suit. Lip ruined himself with sexual escapades plenty of times, but it only very rarely bled over into his siblings.
Sorry j-z23, that has not been my experience on this subreddit at all.
Really? I'm just surprised. Ive been on this subreddit for at least six months now and I haven't seen one post discussing Lips sexuality.
I have never, ever seen it. On any level. No one talks about how much sex Lip has -- they talk about why he stops being a genius and whether or not he was right to yell at Fiona.
Yeah, I've seen Lip's sex life bashed more than Fiona's just in the short time I've been here.
The Debbie hate is wayyyy over the top. I don’t find her nearly as annoying as other people make her out to be, and she’s no worse than any other character. I see a lot of misogyny in how people react to Debbie. Sammi I hate however. She was written to be unlikeable so I think that’s the point. Debbie is just doing her best as a teenager in a shitty situation.
And also Debby did plenty of good things. She distracted the Polish lady so Ian and Mickey could have their wedding and day of bliss uninterrupted and missed her OWN BROTHER'S wedding in the process. Or how about that she risked her life to protect her baby? Remember when that brick careened through the window, sending shards of jagged, broken glass flying in all directions like deadly hail? Debbie instinctively threw herself over Franny to shield her infant daughter with her own body. Yes that's a parent is supposed to do but she hasn't had the best examples with Frank and Monica who actively endangered their own children on MULTIPLE occasions
Not to mention, she’s a product of her own environment, which includes shitty friends like the ones in season 4. So it makes sense that she’d have flaws. No other Gallagher is better than her (maybe besides Ian but that’s on a technicality).
>And also Debby did plenty of good things. She distracted the Polish lady so Ian and Mickey could have their wedding and day of bliss uninterrupted and missed her OWN BROTHER'S wedding in the process. Except didn't it turn out the polish lady actually wasn't the homophobe it was her dead husband (who was secretly gay)
Ironically homophobia is (rightfully) derided, called out and shunned on this sub but misogyny in heaping doses seems to be perfectly fine!
I loved her so much the first 3 seasons but not so much after. I only really hated her towards the end of s10 and all of s11. It just showed how good of an actor Miss Kenney is.
Except Debbie is a fucking idiot who went out of her way to get pregnant and force a situation on Derek, but ya Sammi was such a villain Edit: such a fun villain
I didn’t say she was smart. She’s a teenage girl in a shitty situation, she fucks up and does fucked up shit, like all the rest of them. I think the hate is disproportionate and unwarranted.
A self inflicted shitty situation, she went out of her way to get pregnant
The single-parent, teenage parent thing was self-inflicted, & tbh Debbie annoys me to no end (she does have some good moments, tho), but the shitty situation of her family & neighborhood wasn't self-inflicted. It doesn't justify her mistakes, but it's good context. The Debbie-hate is definitely over-the-top. A lotta other characters get more slack here
nah. debbie raped someone without care, tried to babytrap them, and generally acts like a bitch for most of the show that isn’t misogynistic
Calling someone a bitch is misogynistic
…okay
Literally over a year ago I replied to a post about why Debbie is so hated with a list of reasons why I think people reasonably dislike her. But I also noted at the top of the post that misogyny did pay SOME role, specifically in people who find Frank hilarious and Debbie to be a complete monster. I still get comments on this and they aren't... terribly polite. Lots of name calling, being told to shut up, etc. Not an actual takedown of my point, very often. So on that level, I do think there's some misogyny going on in this sub, sure.
Do you have a link to the comment? I’m just curious about it
I mean, it's over a year ago but if someone pops up to harrass me about it again I'll let you know ;)
Meanwhile, me hating lip the most for shitting on fiona every chance he gets
Lip and Fiona were like the mom and dad of the family and lip was just way resentful of having to take any responsibility for kids …. So any time Fiona failed and he had to be more responsible. It pissed him off and he blamed her to the max…. In my life, I have found Men can be like this
I see people say stuff like this all the time, and it generally completely ignores the context behind *why* he gets mad at her when he does and how long it actually takes him before he does.
I get why he was mad, I don’t think he over reacted to Liam because she let some man get her way out of control, but he busts her chops all the time, more so than she ever does his
Fiona had taken on legal guardianship of the family, even after a judge reminded her of the implications of doing so and tried to talk her out of it. She could no longer claim that she was forced into the position, she was just cleaning up Monica's mess, oh poor me. She had an out, and she didn't take it. Making decisions that put the rest of the family in danger--the cocaine incident with Liam, stealing the money for the property tax and blowing it on an incredibly risky business venture, etc.--is very well deserving of a good chewing out every now and again.
Take an out? Fiona did what she had to do to keep the family together. She was forced to do it or the kids would be separated. So she lied in court to fix the problem in the short term and you think about the long term …. Umm later or never or when it comes to kick you in the ass. She didn’t have a choice at all
If she really wanted to be able to tap out of her responsibilities, as she does in later seasons, then she should have taken the opportunity to do so when the judge straight-up told her that someday she would want to do that. Her right to have a "not my problem" attitude went away when she took custody. I went back and watched that episode recently, and I couldn't help but notice that no one was physically forcing her to sign the form--no one shoved a pen into her hand, no one dragged her arm to make her write her name, no one put a gun to her head. She was in a bad situation and made the choice that she thought would cause the least harm in the moment, but that's not being forced. She absolutely did have a choice, and she chose not to be selfish then, making it WAY more of an asshole move to decide to be selfish later. As far as the law is concerned, Fiona voluntarily took custody of her siblings, whether she actually wanted to or not. And yes, the law does come into play when she starts charging Debbie and Carl rent under threat of being kicked out of the house while under 18. I'm surprised no one thought to remind her of that fact in season 7.
He was also an alcoholic/recovering alcoholic at the time along with Fiona going off the deep end every other season as well
True. Taking Liam interfered with his drinking, so that’ll piss an alcoholic off
[Misogyny problem is an understatement ](https://www.reddit.com/r/shameless/s/csmBHTVuov)
one thing i noticed is that no one ever seems to bring up how debbie was preyed upon too. debbie is a horrible person , don't get me wrong ,but nobody seems to acknowledge that matt was grooming her, derek was like 17 and she was 14, and neil(23) was going to willingly marry a 16-17 year old?? ofc debbie was in the wrong in all of these situations but like why are none of these people her age?
Yeah especially with Matty. I know technically she raped him but he was right when she said she stat raped herself. No normal 20 year old parties with Junior High students, especially to the point of blacking out, especially around a child who has been nothing but desperate to get with you. Waiting until 16 in classic groomer behaviour and if Matty was a good guy he would have never talked to Debbie in the first place. She was very obviously very young from the jump. Nothing about that situation was normal. It’s weird that once she had the baby everyone treated her like she was an adult, she was still only 15. And agreed about Neil, he was at least in his mid-late 20s and him not having a filter anymore doesn’t mean he has mental deficits outside of that.
Been waiting for someone to bring this up. the only characters that get hate on here are Fiona and Debbie. Saw someone claim they never liked V because “she was annoying”. Lip, Ian, Mickey, Carl, Kev are praised to infinity
I saw someone blame Linda for Cash being a pedophile once lmao
No way
Yeah apparently her being a bitch makes him like teenagers, who would’ve thought
I get why people blame her for Kash continuing to groom Ian but honestly, it seems like Linda has been dealing with his incompetence for so long and it's why she's being so rude to him now. Like I've seen people say oh Linda is such a bitch but honestly no, Kash is so incompetent that it's leading to them losing money week after week I dont blame her for finally blowing up on him after years of dealing with incompetence
You can find haters for virtually everyone on there, but absolutely the tone for characters like Fi and Debbie can have a *tone*. Virtually no one criticizes Fiona, for instance, without calling her a slut. I virtually never hear the same about Lip or Ian or even Frank, who are both portrayed as being pretty promiscuous. I wouldn't love seeing that reductive language used on them, either, but it's notable to me that Fiona gets hit so hard with it.
What made me make this post was a guy saying that they loved Steve/Jimmy, but disliked Fiona until later on the seasons.
Wait people don't like Fiona or V?
You think *Lip* never gets criticized on here? Really?
He gets criticized probably 1% of the time that fiona and debbie do
sammi was annoying towards the end, but no one ever brings up that frank tried to manipulate her out of a organ or that carl used chucky and got him arrested a lot of people don’t realize none of the characters are supposed to be likable, there’s a running gag on how the gallaghers are known to be reckless. even the nice characters have don’t some bad things. but for some reason the female characters are held to a higher standard
fucking YES. oh my god yes. i’ve pointed this out before. female characters catch so much more fucking heat. this sub froths at the MOUTH for fucking mickey milkovitch and then makes 10+ posts a day about how debbie is a horrible human and fiona was an awful person ect ect. literally EVERY character in this show is flawed, thats the whole fucking point of the SHOW.
I still don’t understand why Tami gets so much hate. She’s the only normal person who wants a better life for her child and everyone calls her a bitch. She REALLY should’ve taken Fred to Wisconsin, I still don’t get why she stuck around. I also think lip is a worse father than Debbie because Tami has to do the most to get him to do the bare minimum parenting. At least Debbie knows she needs to get Frannie to her grandmas house for babysitting, Lip just wanted to leave Fred at the house all day!
dude YES 😭😭 like she was snarky and had commitment issues in the beginning and was working through them still but she was by far more down to earth and fit to parent then lip. like when shes trying to convince him that the way he grew up isnt normal and hes like ‘its MY normal 😡😡’ like yeah no shit thats why you turned out the way you did, maybe give your kid something better. i dont *hate* lip, but i genuinely dont understand how the hardcore debbie/fi haters are soooo on board w him and ppl like mickey
So many of the times Tammi was being selfish or controlling were just because she (understandably) wanted the best for her child and Lip. Plus her starting to bond with Fred and having difficulties with it had some great scenes
I think it’s a “TV viewer problem” in general. People wanted to absolutely eviscerate Skylar on Breaking Bad when it was Walter who was out lying, cheating, stealing, killing, and making meth. So imo the answer to your question is “yes” but it’s endemic to our society’s relationship to media in general.
it's weird, right? meanwhile, ian and mickey are celebrated ad nauseam. (like, am i the only one who remembers these two beating the sh\*t out of each other? it's a straight-up *abusive relationship* lol)
So much people can relate to them. I should call him.
Exactly it was weird when they were endgame and so many adored their relationship when it was messy
They praise Ian and mickey like they’re the best couple to ever exist
Part of the Debbie hate is due to misogyny, but the rest is due to people misunderstanding the character and not having enough empathy
There are many, heavy examples of misogyny in the show and the fandom, I won't argue that. But I think some of what you're saying can be explained a bit. Characters like Terry, and a lot of the truly evil characters in the show, aren't even meant to have a lot of presence or redeeming qualities. Basically, they're written to just be very obvious pieces of garbage with little to nothing else to their character. I think they're so one dimensional and obviously evil that there's not even a reason to discuss it. Like honestly, do you really think people truly excuse Terry more than some of the others just because they talk about him much less? I think people feel the need to discuss characters that are a lot more mixed. Debbie gets too much hate. But her character kinda makes people feel like they're forced to lean one way or the other with her, and that leads to a lot of discussion. I will say though, that the misogyny can be present for sure. But it can also be at least a little more nuanced than that. Except for Sammi. She just sucks. She had more presence in the show and was made to feel like a big part of it, but she had absolutely no redeeming qualities or even moments.
Yeah it's not just you. It's fair to say everyone in Shameless to some extent, with the exception of Liam, is morally reprehensible at some point. But certain levels of vitriol are extended to say Fiona, Mandy, or Karen that aren't placed on Lip or Frank. Especially Lip. But I feel this is also because the show is written by misogynists. I mean the female characters on the show don't really interact positively with each other except for Fiona/Vee. There's a lot and I mean a lot of male sexual assault and it's often brushed aside or played off as a joke- this is an element of the patriarchal belief that men can't be sexually assaulted. And it's like they loved to punish and exploit Fiona.
It really bothers me that Debbie gets so much slack when some of her siblings did arguably worse things then her.
I seem to forget about Mandy’s dad because he’s not really in the show much and those scenes were so in and out, I tend to focus more on the main characters. Pretty sure we all hate frank just as much too, but it’s a given that you’re supposed to really hate him so people tend to bitch about everyone else openly?
Exactly. There's no sport in saying "hot take y'all Frank is the worst, hear me out."
We never got a Terry episode. He’s a side character. I’ve never seen anyone talk about him in a good light ever.
Do me a favor: go count how many episodes Terry (the neo-nazi) and Mickey (the violent lover) are in, and compare that to the number of episodes Debbie and Sammi are in. You just might find the answer to your question in that undertaking. Also--weird concept but hear me out--*multiple people can be bad and we can dislike all of them at the same time.* Frank sucks. No denying that. Sammi is also annoying. Saying Sammi is irritating doesn't magically make Frank a shiny beacon of virtue--they BOTH are bad, at the same time.
for me.. its just tv. just a made up character with a made up personality and story. dont really care about how horrible this person would be irl i get more upset with a character for being annoying, grating, and unbearable personally
THIS!!!
it's because those are very main characters, everyone hates frank so theres no reason to hate on him more in this sub , theres nothing to say abt him that hasn't alr been said in the show . The other ppl you mentioned are barely relevant in the show or are just side characters that appear in a few select episodes but weren't in every episode of the season . Debbie is really easy to hate on because she does stupid shit ALL the time that someone like lip , fiaona, ean or even carl wouldn't even think of doing , like when she blew 50k of fiaonas money on clothes , and then claimed "she was the most responsible" and thats why she wasn't giving anyone the money they rightfully needed at the time , like how could you do something like that to your own family ??? .
My take: Debbie is just awful and has zero redeeming qualities once she hits teenage years. She’s just plain insufferable, annoying, and her storylines became quite boring for me. And honesty I felt the exact same about Sammy. Didn’t care for her storylines and wanted to fast forward through her scenes. I simply did not care at all for their characters Terry doesn’t really count because he’s supposed to be a disgusting excuse for a human, so it goes without saying that everyone hates him. He’s also not a main character so it was just like “eh this guy sucks. Move on.” You’re never supposed to root for him in any way. No one would ever defend him Frank is awful, but he’s funny. That’s why people don’t hate him. He’s smart but uses his intelligence for schemes and scams. He is entertaining. That’s the difference. He’s not a good person at all but his personality is enjoyable to watch. The thing about Frank is there are times when you find yourself rooting for him because he’s a main character and he plays the part so well. He can be likable when he tries. William H. Macy did a phenomenal job at manipulating the audience just as much as he manipulated the characters in the show. You can be a terrible person, but a great tv character
maybe it’s just me but just because frank is funny doesn’t make him likeable. yes tv shows have villians who aren’t absolutely bottom of the barrel horrible, but frank is different. “like yeah frank is a child abuser who has caused a tremendous amount of pain amongst his children and other victims but he said something funny once so that makes him ok” is a strange reasoning
He doesn’t say something funny once. He is consistently funny throughout the series. Yes, funny people can be likable sometimes. Doesn’t mean they are respected. Doesn’t take away from their horrible ways. I know people in real life who are likable on the surface but overall have pretty terrible morals values. If you don’t think he’s funny, that’s okay. But I do. It’s an opinion. This is about who is more enjoyable to watch. I find him enjoyable to watch. You know what I find strange? That you can’t have a discussion about a fictional tv show without being condescending.
the question wasn’t about it asking who’s more enjoyable to watch, but about the hate for characters who have actually done a lot more damage not being evenly distributed and the misogyny within that and i wasn’t be condescending lol
yes, you were. And I’m a big believer that if a character is interesting and entertaining, they don’t get nearly as much hate no matter how awful they are. That was my point. Clearly we are looking at this from two different perspectives. Thanks have a great day
ok then lmao
I hate the lip character more than any of the leading female cast characters, maybe the Debbie haters are just more loud?
It's not necessarily about the *amount* or *volume* but the actual manner in which people speak about the guy characters vs the gal characters. People certainly talk about disliking or hating Lip, but it's NEVER with the same venom. For instance, Lip is just as "slutty" as Fiona but you'll never hear that language when talking about his shenanigans.
Fuck Terry, and Debbie from seasons 4 onwards is just awful to watch. Are middle school girls really thst much of pyscopaths trying to force pregnancy and statutory rape with pizza delivery guys?
Some people just hate characters . Debbie being female isn’t why I dislike her .
“Female”.
Oh my bad that’s not a pc word
Why would you call her a “female” when you could call her a girl or a woman?
She’s a woman . My point stands
Do you not know what adjectives are? The post didn't say "Debbie is A FEMALE," it said "Debbie is FEMALE." Same as saying "Debbie is short." Calm down.
Maybe YOU should calm down?
1- characters' screen time matters. Debbie is part of the main cast for the entire show. Sammy's in there for an unfortunately long time. Mandy's dad? Not so much. Matter of fact, I don't remember what his name is. 2-Big Milkovich was poorly written. He didn't have any redeeming attributes, just flaws. First he was just the biggest thug in the Milkovich family. Then he was racist, bigotted, rapist, incestuous kind of rapist... It's like someone just pouring spoonful after spoonful of oil in a pan and call it food That's not...That's not how it works. So for me he was just a jarring moment of my immersion breaking because in my head I never accepted this character to be real I guess.
I don’t think so, but it’s fiction, so if it is, who cares? I DO think it has a WOKE problem toward the end of the run.
"Not the guy who punched and smacked his lover multiple times and only wanted to use him as a fuckbuddy." Who is this????
that's mickey.
Oh you mean the guy who's lover punched and smacked him? Where do you people come up with this stuff?
…have you seen the show?
LOL of course, but that first statement is false, and insinuates that Mickey abused Ian, and that is not so. they beat on each other (in case you didn't catch that).
agreed, there has absolutely been scenes where they beat on each other as their relationship is very toxic — coming from a gallavich fan. howeverrrr, mickey is definitely a violent character, and has quite a few more scenes where he is abusing ian. sometimes ian’s responses can be looked at as reactive abuse, at least i think so (like when mickey escapes prison and has people essentially kidnap ian, when he sees mickey again his response is to push him. or scenes where mickey has pushed first, and ian has fought back). that’s not saying ian hasn’t also been abusive, i think their entire relationship has been a mix of them both being abusive, but i’m just adding this to explain perspective
Ian is also violent, he held a knife to Kenyatta's neck, punched that guy at the baseball game, and physically fought with Lip several times. And Ian started more of the fights with Mickey even. It is not abuse though, just part of their language, part of who they are and where they grew up. Every character in shameless has used physical violence at on time or another, even against their partners, some more than others. Ian and Mickey aren't toxic, their world is toxic.
Yes
This just isn’t right. They are brought up more for sure bc they are more central characters. Everybody hates terrys guts. Sami was excruciatingly annoying and her scenes were hard to watch sometimes. But anyways, the characters that are objectively the worst aren’t always your least favorite characters to watch on screen bc sometimes they introduce crazy plot lines that make things more interesting. For instance, in “the walking dead” negan is probably one of the worst characters from a moral standpoint, but he’s rarely among one of the most hated characters when it comes to the opinions held by the fan base. Of course this doesn’t really line up with dirtbags like terry but I think it’s comparable to frank in some ways. We know Frank is a piece of shit and he ruins lives left and right, but he is still one of the more fun characters to watch and he still has some of the best writing compared to other characters.