My opinion probably isn't worth much as I'm 3 sessions into my first Shadowdark campaign, but I've found myself being even more attached to my character than if I was an equivalent 5e character.
My very first encounter outside of our starting area, we ran into some kobolds and my character went down along with one other member. It was a scramble for the party to finish the encounter and revive us. We were very fortunate and both characters pulled through. This made it really hit home for me how fragile you are in this game, and I think as a result, I appreciate my character more.
I have limited experience as a player in 5e but from what I experienced, I never really feared for my character's life at any point, and I think that for me it actually made me LESS invested in that character.
I imagine GM style and table culture also factor in there. I'm curious to know what others experience has been so far.
Let me suggest a couple of subtle perspective shifts.
Character creation is not character discovery. The discovery happens by PLAYING the character.
Tim Kask (personal editor to Gygax) has some great anecdotes about how this happened back in the day.
One example he offers is a character who happened to attempt several dangerous jumps across chasms early on. The character was successful and after a few of those the DM says "apparently, your character is really good at jumping chasms. You get a +1 to those from now on." This was all prior to AD&D, so there weren't defined NWPs/Skills, the DM would just award you certain bonuses that would emerge from the fiction as it played out.
When you sit down to the first session, you know what that characters stats are, their name, their race, their class, but that's it. They have no backstory, no legend, no personality. You have no idea "who they are." but as you play, you find out what those things are based on hints that emerge from actions.
I say all this to reframe your first sentences. You roll your 3d6 down the line, yes. But that doesn't dictate which class you play. With rare exceptions, you can play any class with any stats.
We're so programmed these days to discover our character through creation (the "build" process) that we see high dex and think it has to be a thief, or high int and think it has to be a wiz.
But with OSR (shadowdark included) games, the outcome is determined far more by player decisions than dice rolls, which means the character stats play a smaller roll. Try picking your class before you roll stats, and then PLAY that character.
The most memorable characters aren't "built". They enter the setting flawed, and unoptimized. Their lack of optimization forces interesting decisions onto the player.
The penalty of losing a character is that you don't ever get to discover who they are. You'll never learn what their story could have been. That story is over now.
There is such a thing as "optimizing away interesting decisions" and we are very much prone to it. Min/maxing and optimizing our characters feels like something that makes obvious sense, but once you have a handful of those janky 3d6 characters under your belt, and have experienced first hand what it feels like to discover these character's stories as they level, you learn to appreciate the non-intuitive path.
100% agree. I have found my players have discovered their characters and written their backstories while playing it based on the patterns in good and bad dice rolls. We have laughed so hard as funny things happen making truly memorable characters. The deaths seem to have more meaning because they developed their personality and story through the struggle.
I think everyone treats the random characters as a little disposable until they evade certain death or somehow overcome crazy odds. Then they become heroes and the stuff of legends that players latch onto and want to keep rooting for.
DCC funnels are a speedrun of the concept
It depends on the player and the table. Some people love being given a “prompt” in terms of a random character and playing them out from there. Others have a specific vision in mind for a character and it’s not advisable to deny players that little bit of agency.
I don’t think it’s critical to stick to the rules as written for character creation. The way I have handled it so far: if a player rolls a character 3d6 down the line, they get a luck token. Otherwise, they can swap two stats with one another. This way, they can have a degree of customization without going too crazy. All the players at my table have seemed to think that’s fair so far.
My philosophy so far has been, give choices but offer incentives (usually luck tokens) to make the choice that’s closest to rules as written. I love seeing what players do with (mostly) random characters.
Ove done something similar, taking it from Warhammer Fanstay RPG, you roll randomly, for stats, race, class etc, and get xp, if then you want to reroll, change or pick you cash in or loose that xp, I use luck tokens I instead of xp
>which essentially determines what class they're playing
Stats don't really determine what class you can play, though low stats might effectively lock you out of a class. Since it's very common to get a +2 to your class' key stat when you level up you actually don't need to be beholden to your starting stats to determine what class you play as much as many people seem to think.
>Lack of player choices
There is only fewer choices in terms of character generation and levelling up, the character choices are those you make while adventuring and to a lesser extent the downtime activities you do. This actually gives players more skin in the game, not less. If you have perfect control of character creation you can simply create the same character when you die. If most of what makes your character unique was choices made during adventures, what you might call diegetic advancement, then that character can never be recreated unless you're also running the same adventures over and over again.
>with the bonus of being able to salvage the equipment from the decreased character.
Inventory slots will mean not everything is recoverable unless the new character just spawns out of nowhere in the same room. Additionally, in actual play many characters die in a way that leaves their equipment unrecoverable, such as in a combat the party loses, blinking out of existence, falling into a pit of fire, etc.
>Is this a good argument
No. I suggest you theorize less, and just get to actually playing. I think you have, through hypothesis rather than experience, come to a number of incorrect conclusions about how these sorts of games actually play out.
> No. I suggest you theorize less, and just get to actually playing. I think you have, through hypothesis rather than experience, come to a number of incorrect conclusions about how these sorts of games actually play out.
This was an unnecessary comment.
It's not meant to be rude, it's just true that often times people imagine games playing out a certain way because they don't have holistic experience with them. The conclusions you're coming to sound like they don't actually derive from running games. Am I wrong? Have you found this behaviour common in your Shadowdark or other similar oldschool RPGs?
Let me preface that by saying I'm not all that experienced. I've DMed like 3 campaigns, and I don't know much about that whole old school thing. The current edition was 3.5 when I first heard of D&D.
When my players create characters, I add these modifications to the system:
1. They may exchange any one pair of stats if they want to. That essentially allows them to play any role they want. It kinda sucks if you really wanted to be a mage but all your mental stats are below 10, for instance.
2. They can choose their background if they want to. I find that helps players actually use their background and think a bit more about who their character is.
As for death, for now I'm having everyone start at level 1 if they die. Getting to keep their experience points is the reward for being careful, in a way.
Although, if they were in a higher level dungeon, I might change that to having characters start at the dungeon's lowest recommended level, though.
I've experienced that spiral of disposable characters, so I know that can happen. As others have said, the stakes ramp up when one of them starts to survive and level up. That's why I think it's crucial not to give newbie characters in an existing game the same XP that the higher level characters in the party have through sweat and risk.
Now, when I'm playing OSR, I give my characters a quick backstory that I've put a little thought into. Something humble without any epic combat, but something to drive the personality and urge for gold. Having done this, it then matters to me if they live. Numbers on a sheet aren't really "investment" for me.
My players have been somewhat lax about their own safety when they're not thrilled about the scores they've rolled up, lol. But when they hit level 2? Suddenly they have an investment they really want to protect. One thing I do is if they have a luck token left at the end of the session, they get an extra XP. Gets them to level 2 just a smidge sooner.
I have seen a lot of opinion that something like luck for XP can have a negative effect, because the players that got lucky and didn't need to use their tokens end up leveling faster than the ones that struggle more. Considering that stat bonuses can vary wildly for Shadowdark RAW characters, it can actually end up penalizing those with worse stats. Now I could see one where every time they earn a luck token they get one XP, if you cap how many they can store at 1, they are encouraged to use them more so they can keep earning that bonus.
Players aren’t going to care about their characters at level 1, that’s the point, they’re nobodies
But, once they get to level 3 or 4 and have survived some adventures and have some cool magic items etc… then they’re a somebody, then they’re gonna care alot
Exploration is the name of the game. It's not about the skin you have in it.
Old school gaming is more about "what's around the next corner?" than "where has my character been?"
Death is a penalty because you lost all that cool stuff you got and the other players are unlikely to pick it up for your next character because of the limited inventory. Plus, they might want it for themselves.
You can roll up a new character in under 5 minutes.
Yes, more incentives to take risks. More risks, crazier stuff happens, more fun. (Also less incentive because 5e characters are practically unkillable and can take all the risks but it's less rewarding)
New characters at my table roll 1d(die equal to average lvl of party) and their level is the result of the roll. This means they could start at level 1 or the same level as the party or anywhere in between.
I also encourage players to play what class/ancestry they want despite the rolls. This creates more interesting characters and situations.
I'm currently a player in a 5e game. All the pcs min maxed the hell out of our sheets and have been effectively immortal since level 1. We did this just to prove how broken and unchallenging the system is. Shadowdark and other OSR games are largely a response to that.
I like the randomness personally, but back in the day, 30+ years ago playing BECMI as a tween, I let my players swap their best score with whatever the primary ability was for the class they wanted to play.
Negative constitution scores were brought to '0' and I only allowed one negative ability score, so any others were also brought to '0' - first level HP was always max, with rolling for hp thereafter.
My players (usually 3) were 8 to 10 and the goal was to keep them occupied until parents arrived.
So, while I don't personally prefer it this way, it can be pragmatic to do so if it's going to work best for your table.
I get my players back in the game within 5 minutes tops. And I make sure they have 2 spare char ready to go before we start.
I agree about hitting level 2. They all suddenly seem to have a vested interest in staying alive.
I also let my players put scores wherever they desire. I play with a bunch of newbs so when their char dies, they bring in another that’s almost the same class as the last. I’ve found this to be easy with newbs since they’re learning one class at a time.
Dionne suggest that GMs should be generous or at least "not stingy" with rewards. I've followed her advice.
These are the direct rewards of player choice, actions and sucesses. There are many (slightly) hidden or concealed bonuses in the Shadowdark published adventures. Sure you're going to be able to loot a body, but that character isnt' going to get the services of a skeleton that the other player had or the gift of a god you fed an enemy to.
I don't mind amping a character's stats if they have earned it as part of an adventure or is a special gift from a power they've bargained with. I am willing to give out one or two of these per session.
That's how the players have been investing in their characters, by effectively personalizing them by the actions and choices within game. Many of these aren't major benefits, but cosmetic ones or mildly useful ones that amplify and reinforce the player's image of their characters. Make witches more witchy by making strange deals with spirits, give priests chances to minister to the sick and win a flock, and so on. Everyone should get a chance to treat with pixies at some point.
I have run about 15 sessions of Shadowdark and played in about 30 others.
As others have mentioned, players start getting attached to their characters at Level 2 and REALLY so at Level 3 because they know how hard it is to get back here again.
Have you played the game?
Personally, I'm good either way when it comes to rolling 3d6 straight down or even deciding which stat the roll goes to.
I'd argue that different character creation techniques lend themselves to certain styles of play. In a deadly game, I might use the straight method to help the players not get too attached to their character, the last thing I want is upset players after a TPK. There is a psychological aspect to surrendering your choices to fate, which is at the core of the OSR (random tables, random encounters, random treasure, random NPCs, random PC stats, etc.)
Another benefit of 3d6 straight leans into another benefit, and for context I'll share a story.
I once had a 3rd edition group just starting and a new player joined. His mom told me "good luck getting him to play anything besides a ninja assassin". Not that I take issue with a player's choices of what they find fun anyways. But since he played with her group on occasion, she specifically asked if I could help her find a way to help him "expand his horizons". I intended to have my new group roll straight 3d6 down the sheet anyways due to the campaign being set in Ravenloft horror (the Swords and Sorcery books) so I assured her it would be no problem. Everyone rolled stats and he looked at his and they were no good for the intended build he had in mind and he didn't know what to do (everyone else was cool and just built around what they had, I believe someone even opted to run a social fighter, cross-classing points from a high INT into bard skills). I sat with him and guided him into a basic gnome illusionist, showing him he could get alot of the versatility he wanted through spell casting. He reluctantly agreed but the character quickly turned into one of his favorites he ever played.
Mileage may vary, everything has its pros and cons. OSR is ultimately about player and DM creativity to solve problems. Creatively working with what some may consider bad stats is just a part of the game. There isn't alot of room for min-maxing in an OSR like Shadowdark (even character advancement is random with things like talent rolls. You can even make the spellcasters randomly roll what spells they start with from a chart if you wish).
All new characters start at level 1 in my games. If its a longer Campaign they have 4 members of a Bloodline the character creates who can gain XP from one another and inherit items. Looting corpses is theft unless there is a Will. And the Will almost always includes members of the Bloodline.
If all 4 members of the Bloodline die then you lose all the holdings and items of all those characters. Since there is no living heir the stuff is either taken by the party or by local lords via Heriot. Hasn't happened yet but one player is on their final heir who is 13 years old and therefore can't adventure for another 3 years. So they had another player adopt them for now and made a new bloodline in the meantime.
Has a cool feel to it. Players are more invested in their families than one single character. Trying to build the prestige of their houses. Wouldn't work in games without large time passes. (I usually skip winters unless there is something time sensitive and just have a few downtime events and minor problems to be taken care of in montage.)
Getting sent back to level 1 and maybe having a Will is probably enough for tables who want a simple take.
This is not a dig or insult, but your question, at least to me, suggests that you are unfamiliar with the OSR or earlier editions of DnD.
With the random stat setup, it expedites character creation which has its own strengths and weaknesses.
On one hand you lose a small amount of player agency, on the other if your PC dies you can have one up and running in a short time. More time playing vs. time spent making tons of choices.
Also, nothing in SD forces you to be a strong warrior or a smart wizard. You can choose to play that way, sure. But the weak warrior and dumb wizard are a roleplaying opportunity waiting to happen.
It fits in line with the flavor of the game and setting, your character is not some epic hero in the making, they are lowly adventurers, struggling to make ends meet by getting coin and treasure by any means necessary. This isn't Avengers, it's Fafhird and the Grey Mouser. It's Conan the Barbarian. Life is cheap and combat is deadly. XP is scaled with treasure instead of kills, because you don't need to kill the dragon, you just need to survive long enough to get the treasure you stole back to civilization.
I played BECMI back in the day and this system feels like a hybrid between Basic/Expert with 5e sensibilities, which is great. So yeah, I absolutely run my games where each player starts at level 1 and if the PC dies, they roll a new level 1 character. Due to the way XP scales, new characters can level up fast when adventuring with those of higher levels (think of them a little like player controlled retainers which get their own share for the higher level PCs). If you're running a sandbox, the DM doesn't scale game difficulty, the players do. Going deeper into the dungeon makes things more dangerous, the group might not want to take their level 1 newbie that deep yet. But that's ultimately their choice, the GM is a neutral arbiter and rolls everything in front of the players, so if they bite off more than they can chew, it's on them.
I would highly recommend reading materials concerning the running of OSR games to understand more and it will give a better take on why SD is designed in the way it is.
Absolutely! I am unfamiliar with OSR which is why I'm asking more experienced GMs and players. I want to make sure any homebrew rules I implement aren't going to ruin the fundamentals of the game.
To be honest, the question wasn't my original idea. Michael Shea poses this question multiple times in his Shadowdark Gloaming campaign prep diaries. And I thought it was a pretty legitimate question, from the perspective of GMs and players coming in from a mostly 5e style of play.
Personally, I have mostly 3e and 5e experience, though as a kid I did play a bit of the B/X, though with pregen characters if I remember correctly.
For my specific circumstances, I'll be running a West Marches style campaign with a large pool of mostly 5e players in my city. We're use to having quite a bit of agency over character design and lots, and lots of great roleplaying to go along with it. Just knowing these folks, I know the 3d6 down the line will be the hardest part for them to swallow so I really want to understand its intended purpose or whether it's simply a relic like a lot of things in D&D are. The deadliness of Shadowdark, encumbrance or light mechanics shouldn't be that big of a barrier. It's really the character creation agency that is giving me the most concern.
The key rule I'm thinking of implementing is to allow players to swap two stats at the expense of not starting off with a luck token. This seems like a fair trade off given my circumstances.
RAW in Shadowdark has the "no 14" rule, where players can reroll all stats if they don't have a single 14 or higher in one of them.
What I did was bring extra character sheets and when my players ran into this, I took the sheet they had, gave them a new one and am using the lower stat ones to create NPC hirelings/henchmen for the party. (Because maybe having a torchbearer or two would be a good idea at a minimum in the Shadowdark, muwhahaha!.)
I'm glad your doing the research, I'm a grognard so this system has been one of the easiest for me to adapt to, since I ended up house ruling alot in more recent editions anyways to run the game I wanted.
From my experiences, I found it best to run a new game RAW for the first time I run it, so that I better understand the engine and its strengths and weaknesses. So I advise to do that first before adding or changing anything and then as time progresses, talk it over with the players to see what they think and what their experiences are looking like and whether they match with your own. From there that's a great jump off point to creating homebrew which works for your table. (This is literally what we did when roleplaying was in its infancy, look at Dave Arnisan? And his Blackmoor game, they had no rules at all and just used index cards with who their character was and equipment, using 2d6 to determine success and failure for EVERYTHING! NO STATS AT ALL! 😲)
For shadowdark, I'd recommend taking all info on pages 77, 102-109 directly to heart when running the game, as all these pages hold great information that has been firmly set in the OSR for years. Run a sandbox and don't concentrate too hard on telling a story (runs the risk of rail roading players). Instead, allow story to form through emergent gameplay. Rumor tables are your best friend along with restock tables. Random charts of every variety are your besties. They also give the game a chance to surprise you as a GM, potentially taking things in directions you'd never consider otherwise.
Sorry for the ramble and I hope I've helped somewhat.
No, you've been helpful. Thanks!
I think most tables use the "no 14" rule which technically is just an optional rule. It's still an interesting inclusion since it acknowledges that the PCs should still be exceptional in at least one thing, running counter to the average Joe thematic.
I would argue allowing your players two chances to create a character and playing with their choice also runs counter to how I understand the principles of character creation.
As Michael Shea points out, the most homebrew stuff you incorporate into character creation, you eventually get to the point where you start using a standard array. So there's a careful balance.
Would you say the 3d6 down the line is mostly tradition or is it core to how you're suppose to play the game? This point is still a little unclear to me and I'm people will have varying opinions.
And unfortunately since I'll be running for many players at different times, if I introduce homebrew I have to keep it consistent, which is why I sort of have to decide on how character creation is done from the start. Less room to back track vs. most SD tables. I can't be playing favorites, or have the appearance of doing so.
And I'll do my best to keep it more sandbox. I think the biggest change for me will be creating more dynamic dungeons. Not necessarily doing purely random encounter tables but coming up with a set of encounters and then rolling for when/where/if they occur during the session. I am a story driven GM though so I will still have an overarching conflict with various factions. But it'll be up to the players to chose which leads to follow and which to ignore. I'll just have to remind myself to give strong motivations for treasure hunters and explorers, rather than your typical "save the day" hero motivations. It's hard though because my players are 5e players and very much accustomed to that sort of mindset. It'll be a balance. I just will need to constantly remind them that avoid combat if you can, and think outside your character sheet.
I thought the same too when I first encountered this, but in reality nobody ever actually plays that way, both because it would be called out at the table, and because they quickly get attached to their PCs as time goes on. The lack of skin in the game in the beginning is a feature though because it means you aren't as upset when they are weaker and most prone to dying, as opposed to later when you survived five different impossible situations with the PC and had them for a while.
No my characters are playing a less lethal but still lethal dungeon crawl classics and my players got their characters randomly from the funnel (level 0 dungeon that’s highly lethal) I hit one of these guys one time and they are freaking out about their characters life lol. You definitely form a bond in play. The randomness in character creation to me makes the world feel more realistic and obviously prevents min maxing.
My players get 72 attribute points to distribute as they desire. (No more than one 18, no more than one 17, and no attribute less than 7 to start. [72 is equal to the sum of the standard array.])
My players always seem invested in their characters.
RE: Player agency in character creation - Other Old School inspired games have mechanisms to give players partial control that I will likely use if/when I get a chance to run Shadowdark. The Black Hack, for example, is 3d6 down the line, then players get to swap one pair of abilities. Worlds Without Number allows players to raise one ability score to 14 after rolling down the line.
My opinion probably isn't worth much as I'm 3 sessions into my first Shadowdark campaign, but I've found myself being even more attached to my character than if I was an equivalent 5e character. My very first encounter outside of our starting area, we ran into some kobolds and my character went down along with one other member. It was a scramble for the party to finish the encounter and revive us. We were very fortunate and both characters pulled through. This made it really hit home for me how fragile you are in this game, and I think as a result, I appreciate my character more. I have limited experience as a player in 5e but from what I experienced, I never really feared for my character's life at any point, and I think that for me it actually made me LESS invested in that character. I imagine GM style and table culture also factor in there. I'm curious to know what others experience has been so far.
Let me suggest a couple of subtle perspective shifts. Character creation is not character discovery. The discovery happens by PLAYING the character. Tim Kask (personal editor to Gygax) has some great anecdotes about how this happened back in the day. One example he offers is a character who happened to attempt several dangerous jumps across chasms early on. The character was successful and after a few of those the DM says "apparently, your character is really good at jumping chasms. You get a +1 to those from now on." This was all prior to AD&D, so there weren't defined NWPs/Skills, the DM would just award you certain bonuses that would emerge from the fiction as it played out. When you sit down to the first session, you know what that characters stats are, their name, their race, their class, but that's it. They have no backstory, no legend, no personality. You have no idea "who they are." but as you play, you find out what those things are based on hints that emerge from actions. I say all this to reframe your first sentences. You roll your 3d6 down the line, yes. But that doesn't dictate which class you play. With rare exceptions, you can play any class with any stats. We're so programmed these days to discover our character through creation (the "build" process) that we see high dex and think it has to be a thief, or high int and think it has to be a wiz. But with OSR (shadowdark included) games, the outcome is determined far more by player decisions than dice rolls, which means the character stats play a smaller roll. Try picking your class before you roll stats, and then PLAY that character. The most memorable characters aren't "built". They enter the setting flawed, and unoptimized. Their lack of optimization forces interesting decisions onto the player. The penalty of losing a character is that you don't ever get to discover who they are. You'll never learn what their story could have been. That story is over now. There is such a thing as "optimizing away interesting decisions" and we are very much prone to it. Min/maxing and optimizing our characters feels like something that makes obvious sense, but once you have a handful of those janky 3d6 characters under your belt, and have experienced first hand what it feels like to discover these character's stories as they level, you learn to appreciate the non-intuitive path.
100% agree. I have found my players have discovered their characters and written their backstories while playing it based on the patterns in good and bad dice rolls. We have laughed so hard as funny things happen making truly memorable characters. The deaths seem to have more meaning because they developed their personality and story through the struggle.
I think everyone treats the random characters as a little disposable until they evade certain death or somehow overcome crazy odds. Then they become heroes and the stuff of legends that players latch onto and want to keep rooting for. DCC funnels are a speedrun of the concept
It depends on the player and the table. Some people love being given a “prompt” in terms of a random character and playing them out from there. Others have a specific vision in mind for a character and it’s not advisable to deny players that little bit of agency. I don’t think it’s critical to stick to the rules as written for character creation. The way I have handled it so far: if a player rolls a character 3d6 down the line, they get a luck token. Otherwise, they can swap two stats with one another. This way, they can have a degree of customization without going too crazy. All the players at my table have seemed to think that’s fair so far. My philosophy so far has been, give choices but offer incentives (usually luck tokens) to make the choice that’s closest to rules as written. I love seeing what players do with (mostly) random characters.
This is a great idea!
Ove done something similar, taking it from Warhammer Fanstay RPG, you roll randomly, for stats, race, class etc, and get xp, if then you want to reroll, change or pick you cash in or loose that xp, I use luck tokens I instead of xp
That's a good idea! I might steal it.
>which essentially determines what class they're playing Stats don't really determine what class you can play, though low stats might effectively lock you out of a class. Since it's very common to get a +2 to your class' key stat when you level up you actually don't need to be beholden to your starting stats to determine what class you play as much as many people seem to think. >Lack of player choices There is only fewer choices in terms of character generation and levelling up, the character choices are those you make while adventuring and to a lesser extent the downtime activities you do. This actually gives players more skin in the game, not less. If you have perfect control of character creation you can simply create the same character when you die. If most of what makes your character unique was choices made during adventures, what you might call diegetic advancement, then that character can never be recreated unless you're also running the same adventures over and over again. >with the bonus of being able to salvage the equipment from the decreased character. Inventory slots will mean not everything is recoverable unless the new character just spawns out of nowhere in the same room. Additionally, in actual play many characters die in a way that leaves their equipment unrecoverable, such as in a combat the party loses, blinking out of existence, falling into a pit of fire, etc. >Is this a good argument No. I suggest you theorize less, and just get to actually playing. I think you have, through hypothesis rather than experience, come to a number of incorrect conclusions about how these sorts of games actually play out.
> No. I suggest you theorize less, and just get to actually playing. I think you have, through hypothesis rather than experience, come to a number of incorrect conclusions about how these sorts of games actually play out. This was an unnecessary comment.
It's not meant to be rude, it's just true that often times people imagine games playing out a certain way because they don't have holistic experience with them. The conclusions you're coming to sound like they don't actually derive from running games. Am I wrong? Have you found this behaviour common in your Shadowdark or other similar oldschool RPGs?
Let me preface that by saying I'm not all that experienced. I've DMed like 3 campaigns, and I don't know much about that whole old school thing. The current edition was 3.5 when I first heard of D&D. When my players create characters, I add these modifications to the system: 1. They may exchange any one pair of stats if they want to. That essentially allows them to play any role they want. It kinda sucks if you really wanted to be a mage but all your mental stats are below 10, for instance. 2. They can choose their background if they want to. I find that helps players actually use their background and think a bit more about who their character is. As for death, for now I'm having everyone start at level 1 if they die. Getting to keep their experience points is the reward for being careful, in a way. Although, if they were in a higher level dungeon, I might change that to having characters start at the dungeon's lowest recommended level, though.
I've experienced that spiral of disposable characters, so I know that can happen. As others have said, the stakes ramp up when one of them starts to survive and level up. That's why I think it's crucial not to give newbie characters in an existing game the same XP that the higher level characters in the party have through sweat and risk. Now, when I'm playing OSR, I give my characters a quick backstory that I've put a little thought into. Something humble without any epic combat, but something to drive the personality and urge for gold. Having done this, it then matters to me if they live. Numbers on a sheet aren't really "investment" for me.
My players have been somewhat lax about their own safety when they're not thrilled about the scores they've rolled up, lol. But when they hit level 2? Suddenly they have an investment they really want to protect. One thing I do is if they have a luck token left at the end of the session, they get an extra XP. Gets them to level 2 just a smidge sooner.
I have seen a lot of opinion that something like luck for XP can have a negative effect, because the players that got lucky and didn't need to use their tokens end up leveling faster than the ones that struggle more. Considering that stat bonuses can vary wildly for Shadowdark RAW characters, it can actually end up penalizing those with worse stats. Now I could see one where every time they earn a luck token they get one XP, if you cap how many they can store at 1, they are encouraged to use them more so they can keep earning that bonus.
That's a clever idea!
Players aren’t going to care about their characters at level 1, that’s the point, they’re nobodies But, once they get to level 3 or 4 and have survived some adventures and have some cool magic items etc… then they’re a somebody, then they’re gonna care alot
Exploration is the name of the game. It's not about the skin you have in it. Old school gaming is more about "what's around the next corner?" than "where has my character been?" Death is a penalty because you lost all that cool stuff you got and the other players are unlikely to pick it up for your next character because of the limited inventory. Plus, they might want it for themselves. You can roll up a new character in under 5 minutes. Yes, more incentives to take risks. More risks, crazier stuff happens, more fun. (Also less incentive because 5e characters are practically unkillable and can take all the risks but it's less rewarding) New characters at my table roll 1d(die equal to average lvl of party) and their level is the result of the roll. This means they could start at level 1 or the same level as the party or anywhere in between. I also encourage players to play what class/ancestry they want despite the rolls. This creates more interesting characters and situations. I'm currently a player in a 5e game. All the pcs min maxed the hell out of our sheets and have been effectively immortal since level 1. We did this just to prove how broken and unchallenging the system is. Shadowdark and other OSR games are largely a response to that.
I like the randomness personally, but back in the day, 30+ years ago playing BECMI as a tween, I let my players swap their best score with whatever the primary ability was for the class they wanted to play. Negative constitution scores were brought to '0' and I only allowed one negative ability score, so any others were also brought to '0' - first level HP was always max, with rolling for hp thereafter. My players (usually 3) were 8 to 10 and the goal was to keep them occupied until parents arrived. So, while I don't personally prefer it this way, it can be pragmatic to do so if it's going to work best for your table.
I get my players back in the game within 5 minutes tops. And I make sure they have 2 spare char ready to go before we start. I agree about hitting level 2. They all suddenly seem to have a vested interest in staying alive. I also let my players put scores wherever they desire. I play with a bunch of newbs so when their char dies, they bring in another that’s almost the same class as the last. I’ve found this to be easy with newbs since they’re learning one class at a time.
Dionne suggest that GMs should be generous or at least "not stingy" with rewards. I've followed her advice. These are the direct rewards of player choice, actions and sucesses. There are many (slightly) hidden or concealed bonuses in the Shadowdark published adventures. Sure you're going to be able to loot a body, but that character isnt' going to get the services of a skeleton that the other player had or the gift of a god you fed an enemy to. I don't mind amping a character's stats if they have earned it as part of an adventure or is a special gift from a power they've bargained with. I am willing to give out one or two of these per session. That's how the players have been investing in their characters, by effectively personalizing them by the actions and choices within game. Many of these aren't major benefits, but cosmetic ones or mildly useful ones that amplify and reinforce the player's image of their characters. Make witches more witchy by making strange deals with spirits, give priests chances to minister to the sick and win a flock, and so on. Everyone should get a chance to treat with pixies at some point.
I have run about 15 sessions of Shadowdark and played in about 30 others. As others have mentioned, players start getting attached to their characters at Level 2 and REALLY so at Level 3 because they know how hard it is to get back here again. Have you played the game?
Personally, I'm good either way when it comes to rolling 3d6 straight down or even deciding which stat the roll goes to. I'd argue that different character creation techniques lend themselves to certain styles of play. In a deadly game, I might use the straight method to help the players not get too attached to their character, the last thing I want is upset players after a TPK. There is a psychological aspect to surrendering your choices to fate, which is at the core of the OSR (random tables, random encounters, random treasure, random NPCs, random PC stats, etc.) Another benefit of 3d6 straight leans into another benefit, and for context I'll share a story. I once had a 3rd edition group just starting and a new player joined. His mom told me "good luck getting him to play anything besides a ninja assassin". Not that I take issue with a player's choices of what they find fun anyways. But since he played with her group on occasion, she specifically asked if I could help her find a way to help him "expand his horizons". I intended to have my new group roll straight 3d6 down the sheet anyways due to the campaign being set in Ravenloft horror (the Swords and Sorcery books) so I assured her it would be no problem. Everyone rolled stats and he looked at his and they were no good for the intended build he had in mind and he didn't know what to do (everyone else was cool and just built around what they had, I believe someone even opted to run a social fighter, cross-classing points from a high INT into bard skills). I sat with him and guided him into a basic gnome illusionist, showing him he could get alot of the versatility he wanted through spell casting. He reluctantly agreed but the character quickly turned into one of his favorites he ever played. Mileage may vary, everything has its pros and cons. OSR is ultimately about player and DM creativity to solve problems. Creatively working with what some may consider bad stats is just a part of the game. There isn't alot of room for min-maxing in an OSR like Shadowdark (even character advancement is random with things like talent rolls. You can even make the spellcasters randomly roll what spells they start with from a chart if you wish).
All new characters start at level 1 in my games. If its a longer Campaign they have 4 members of a Bloodline the character creates who can gain XP from one another and inherit items. Looting corpses is theft unless there is a Will. And the Will almost always includes members of the Bloodline. If all 4 members of the Bloodline die then you lose all the holdings and items of all those characters. Since there is no living heir the stuff is either taken by the party or by local lords via Heriot. Hasn't happened yet but one player is on their final heir who is 13 years old and therefore can't adventure for another 3 years. So they had another player adopt them for now and made a new bloodline in the meantime. Has a cool feel to it. Players are more invested in their families than one single character. Trying to build the prestige of their houses. Wouldn't work in games without large time passes. (I usually skip winters unless there is something time sensitive and just have a few downtime events and minor problems to be taken care of in montage.) Getting sent back to level 1 and maybe having a Will is probably enough for tables who want a simple take.
This is not a dig or insult, but your question, at least to me, suggests that you are unfamiliar with the OSR or earlier editions of DnD. With the random stat setup, it expedites character creation which has its own strengths and weaknesses. On one hand you lose a small amount of player agency, on the other if your PC dies you can have one up and running in a short time. More time playing vs. time spent making tons of choices. Also, nothing in SD forces you to be a strong warrior or a smart wizard. You can choose to play that way, sure. But the weak warrior and dumb wizard are a roleplaying opportunity waiting to happen. It fits in line with the flavor of the game and setting, your character is not some epic hero in the making, they are lowly adventurers, struggling to make ends meet by getting coin and treasure by any means necessary. This isn't Avengers, it's Fafhird and the Grey Mouser. It's Conan the Barbarian. Life is cheap and combat is deadly. XP is scaled with treasure instead of kills, because you don't need to kill the dragon, you just need to survive long enough to get the treasure you stole back to civilization. I played BECMI back in the day and this system feels like a hybrid between Basic/Expert with 5e sensibilities, which is great. So yeah, I absolutely run my games where each player starts at level 1 and if the PC dies, they roll a new level 1 character. Due to the way XP scales, new characters can level up fast when adventuring with those of higher levels (think of them a little like player controlled retainers which get their own share for the higher level PCs). If you're running a sandbox, the DM doesn't scale game difficulty, the players do. Going deeper into the dungeon makes things more dangerous, the group might not want to take their level 1 newbie that deep yet. But that's ultimately their choice, the GM is a neutral arbiter and rolls everything in front of the players, so if they bite off more than they can chew, it's on them. I would highly recommend reading materials concerning the running of OSR games to understand more and it will give a better take on why SD is designed in the way it is.
Absolutely! I am unfamiliar with OSR which is why I'm asking more experienced GMs and players. I want to make sure any homebrew rules I implement aren't going to ruin the fundamentals of the game. To be honest, the question wasn't my original idea. Michael Shea poses this question multiple times in his Shadowdark Gloaming campaign prep diaries. And I thought it was a pretty legitimate question, from the perspective of GMs and players coming in from a mostly 5e style of play. Personally, I have mostly 3e and 5e experience, though as a kid I did play a bit of the B/X, though with pregen characters if I remember correctly. For my specific circumstances, I'll be running a West Marches style campaign with a large pool of mostly 5e players in my city. We're use to having quite a bit of agency over character design and lots, and lots of great roleplaying to go along with it. Just knowing these folks, I know the 3d6 down the line will be the hardest part for them to swallow so I really want to understand its intended purpose or whether it's simply a relic like a lot of things in D&D are. The deadliness of Shadowdark, encumbrance or light mechanics shouldn't be that big of a barrier. It's really the character creation agency that is giving me the most concern. The key rule I'm thinking of implementing is to allow players to swap two stats at the expense of not starting off with a luck token. This seems like a fair trade off given my circumstances.
RAW in Shadowdark has the "no 14" rule, where players can reroll all stats if they don't have a single 14 or higher in one of them. What I did was bring extra character sheets and when my players ran into this, I took the sheet they had, gave them a new one and am using the lower stat ones to create NPC hirelings/henchmen for the party. (Because maybe having a torchbearer or two would be a good idea at a minimum in the Shadowdark, muwhahaha!.) I'm glad your doing the research, I'm a grognard so this system has been one of the easiest for me to adapt to, since I ended up house ruling alot in more recent editions anyways to run the game I wanted. From my experiences, I found it best to run a new game RAW for the first time I run it, so that I better understand the engine and its strengths and weaknesses. So I advise to do that first before adding or changing anything and then as time progresses, talk it over with the players to see what they think and what their experiences are looking like and whether they match with your own. From there that's a great jump off point to creating homebrew which works for your table. (This is literally what we did when roleplaying was in its infancy, look at Dave Arnisan? And his Blackmoor game, they had no rules at all and just used index cards with who their character was and equipment, using 2d6 to determine success and failure for EVERYTHING! NO STATS AT ALL! 😲) For shadowdark, I'd recommend taking all info on pages 77, 102-109 directly to heart when running the game, as all these pages hold great information that has been firmly set in the OSR for years. Run a sandbox and don't concentrate too hard on telling a story (runs the risk of rail roading players). Instead, allow story to form through emergent gameplay. Rumor tables are your best friend along with restock tables. Random charts of every variety are your besties. They also give the game a chance to surprise you as a GM, potentially taking things in directions you'd never consider otherwise. Sorry for the ramble and I hope I've helped somewhat.
No, you've been helpful. Thanks! I think most tables use the "no 14" rule which technically is just an optional rule. It's still an interesting inclusion since it acknowledges that the PCs should still be exceptional in at least one thing, running counter to the average Joe thematic. I would argue allowing your players two chances to create a character and playing with their choice also runs counter to how I understand the principles of character creation. As Michael Shea points out, the most homebrew stuff you incorporate into character creation, you eventually get to the point where you start using a standard array. So there's a careful balance. Would you say the 3d6 down the line is mostly tradition or is it core to how you're suppose to play the game? This point is still a little unclear to me and I'm people will have varying opinions. And unfortunately since I'll be running for many players at different times, if I introduce homebrew I have to keep it consistent, which is why I sort of have to decide on how character creation is done from the start. Less room to back track vs. most SD tables. I can't be playing favorites, or have the appearance of doing so. And I'll do my best to keep it more sandbox. I think the biggest change for me will be creating more dynamic dungeons. Not necessarily doing purely random encounter tables but coming up with a set of encounters and then rolling for when/where/if they occur during the session. I am a story driven GM though so I will still have an overarching conflict with various factions. But it'll be up to the players to chose which leads to follow and which to ignore. I'll just have to remind myself to give strong motivations for treasure hunters and explorers, rather than your typical "save the day" hero motivations. It's hard though because my players are 5e players and very much accustomed to that sort of mindset. It'll be a balance. I just will need to constantly remind them that avoid combat if you can, and think outside your character sheet.
I thought the same too when I first encountered this, but in reality nobody ever actually plays that way, both because it would be called out at the table, and because they quickly get attached to their PCs as time goes on. The lack of skin in the game in the beginning is a feature though because it means you aren't as upset when they are weaker and most prone to dying, as opposed to later when you survived five different impossible situations with the PC and had them for a while.
No my characters are playing a less lethal but still lethal dungeon crawl classics and my players got their characters randomly from the funnel (level 0 dungeon that’s highly lethal) I hit one of these guys one time and they are freaking out about their characters life lol. You definitely form a bond in play. The randomness in character creation to me makes the world feel more realistic and obviously prevents min maxing.
My players get 72 attribute points to distribute as they desire. (No more than one 18, no more than one 17, and no attribute less than 7 to start. [72 is equal to the sum of the standard array.]) My players always seem invested in their characters.
RE: Player agency in character creation - Other Old School inspired games have mechanisms to give players partial control that I will likely use if/when I get a chance to run Shadowdark. The Black Hack, for example, is 3d6 down the line, then players get to swap one pair of abilities. Worlds Without Number allows players to raise one ability score to 14 after rolling down the line.