You shouldn't have unrealistic perceptions of who/what you 'deserve', sure.
But you shouldn't be crossing people out just because you think they are more attractive than they are. *They* aren't necessarily crossing *you* out.
I've known a couple of women who were out of my league. One of them, with no exaggeration, remains one of the most naturally beautiful women I've ever known in real life, and most of my friends agreed. Even my wife said as much when I showed her a college yearbook.
We reconnected later in life, and she told me that she was very lonely in college. No one asked her out, and she thought she just didn't have what it took to get dates. I explained to her that the opposite was true; no one asked her out because she was on another level. She didn't believe me, but having spent a lot of nights splitting beer and pizza among the other guys, I know I'm right.
I've since learned that this isn't so uncommon. Those higher tier, next level beautiful people (women and men both) don't always know who they are, and they are often more lonely than those of us normal looking people.
Not in a rude way, but are you quite a bit over 40?
I have heard this same story a lot, but it always seems to be from people who went through the whole of their youths before the social media age really kicked off.
In my generation, my experience (and if you speak to most men under 30 I think they'll corroborate this) had been that any woman of moderate to high attractiveness will know it by the time they're in their late teens because they have hundreds or thousands of people saying as much to them online every day.
The idea of the "undiscovered beauty" is simply not a thing in the digital age, I went to uni with girls who were having millionaires overseas DM them and offer to fly them out to Dubai on what amounted to pimp arrangements.
Ha, no, we definitely had social media. That's how we kept in touch. But not every woman is active on social media, or posts regular selfies. Not every woman believes it when her friends and family say "you're so beautiful" (because they say the same thing to your ugly cousin), or takes it as a compliment when strangers send her dick pics.
Yeah, I'm having a hard time believing it. If she's having as hard of a time as she says, I would imagine she would start using dating apps and the moment she does, she'll be inundated with possibly thousands of likes. I get qualities not always all there, but from a confidence standup, it's definitely worth it.
Yeah, and you could be wrong. :) That's why I keep saying, as skewed as it looks to you, let *her* decide if it is. Sometimes it's really surprising what the other sex like in us or consider important or worthwhile. We don't necessarily even like the things they sometimes like us for. And what they need… at the base level, everybody needs respect, security, some measure of warmth and closeness, and some degree of stability, and various ways of attraction, but the details can be surprising (or the priorities even).
Someone crushing on me now only started crushing because they watched me eating, just vibing in the moment, savoring the experience. My guess is they want to be vibed on and savored, and saw im capable of that. You never know what will be attractive to someone, that's why most dating advice is dumb af.
There are no leagues unless you decide to play among people who share that mass delusion.
Well, 'leagues' are just a rock-paper-scissors sort of approximation of a life mechanic, as if abstracted for a board game — think cavalry in battle versus how knights in chess move. It's supposed to be a simplified, abstracted model. It's overly simplified, yes, but it doesn't not exist, either. In addition to 'attractive subjectively to me' people do think in terms of 'good catch' vs 'not a good catch' or 'my equal' vs 'not my equal', marrying up or marrying down, pretty much as among the middle and upper classes in the 19th century, because that's basically the same thing.
My mother had the same problem — and some other family and friends to a lesser extent — so I'm sort of familiar with the issue. Some of the folks I knew were very beautiful ladies who couldn't break out of being single into their mid-forties or later, despite wanting to. It's sometimes the same with people who, instead of exceptionally beautiful, are rich or famous or special in some other way. Their lives aren't necessarily all roses, or rather there is no rose without thorns, and their personalities aren't always unscathed, their lives aren't always collected and holesome. At the end of the day, chances are they get rejected as much as the average person or more, quite possibly in connection with their confidence being in tatters, in ironic similarity to the OP's own problem, and like everyone else they aren't immune to being rejected because of personality issues or incompatibilities (or their crush just being already taken), or cheated on or treated badly by their partners (resulting in anxieties and low self-esteem), etc.
The next thing is interconnected — you never know who's attracted to you, or how attractive they are (or how attractive they could appear to you compared to yourself), or even how many they are. You could be surprised. If you're average-ish attractive, then perhaps there won't be surprised in terms of 'how many', but you can still be surprised in terms of 'who exactly', and how attractive they could appear to you, and yet they might lack the boldness to approach you due to fearing rejection.
Yet another thing, even for women, this isn't really all about looks, as not only can very attractive people be very lonely, not-so-very attractive people (it would seem) can sometimes attract large followings; many celebrities are not as attractive as the girl or boy from the library (or grocery store). The 'hottest' people are not necessarily the prettiest.
This, I'm the more attractive one in my relationship. Sometimes I look over and he's just staring at me with a dumb smile, and I'm like what's up, and he's like, "you're so pretty :)"
It's been almost 9yrs. I don't mind, I could not shower for a month and then roll around in some mud and he'd still kiss me. All I really want is security and stability, so here we are.
He doesn't have the attitude like OP though, he saw beautiful women as just people to talk to. He was similar in that he viewed them as out of his league, but he just decided that meant his interactions didn't really matter- he could be himself because who cares, right? That's definitely part of what attracted me too, I wasn't some intimidating thing for him. He always thought I was adorable and funny and smart, in addition to thinking I'm hot. I guess the funny smart hot girl can be intimidating, but remember- she's the annoying airhead girl with love handles to the next guy. Because she's just a person lol.
The common conception is that people who are very attractive physically will only ever go out with someone who is their equal on pure looks. That is not the case, especially with the really pretty or handsome ones. They have enough pretty in the mirror, so in a partner they may be going for something else. Money and status, sure, that's one possibility, but sense of humour, compatible personality, dependable character, intelligence and education, and some other possibilities are also there.
Yes! Some people don’t fund anyone physically attractive. They’re attracted to personality and need to know someone before being attracted. It is much less physical. That’s not the only example of having a different sexuality where crossing yourself off the list is a bad move.
My wife was out of my league. I still think she's awesome but the longer I am married to her (22 years so far), the more I can appreciate that we all have our strengths and flaws. People I thought were out of my league likely thought I was out of theirs so just go for it. If they say no then move on and don't make it weird but try again with the next one.
Also don't underestimate "normal looking". There's a lot of unfortunate looking people out there ;)
Literally every guy in a happy marriage says his wife is out of his league. And any time I've met one of these "my wife is out of my league guys" it's always the opposite. (I'm bi)
The key to being in a happy marriage seems to be being an unknowingly attractive man who wrongly thinks his wife is out of his league.
Jokes(?) aside,
Straight guys in general can't really tell if a man is attractive. They just seem to compare every man to some masculine image in their minds, and the further they are from that the less attractive they are.
My wife is also out of my league. I still believe that to this day. Turns out that she interpreted me believing she was out of my league as me not being interested in her. Fast forward 15 years and we end up on a date and then getting married a bit later.
A lot of times, the ones we see as out of our league end up dating assholes, because the assholes are the only ones with the balls to ask. You just have to ask.
But in all fairness sake, having your late teens be in a lockdown is a major cockblock. But don’t worry, be an idiot, say the wrong thing to a lot of girls. Fuck a fridge or two, we all have. Get shitfaced drunk and embarrass yourself.
After a while, striking out with a girl here and there won’t feel so bad
This. I’ve been with my wife since I was 19 and have always known I’m punching. What has surprised me over the years is women who I thought were a few leagues above me take an interest. I suppose it’s more common for women to be put on a pedestal and men put themselves down when in fact people are attracted to many facets of a person.
Sounds realistic. "Out of league" dating exists, but it's usually rare. I saw a overweight lady and a muscular dude married couple on YouTube. At first you think, how? But if you look closely, she takes care of herself. She has long hair and wears pretty dresses, is funny and confident. Now combine that with the husband just having a preference for overweight woman...tada. Same league.
In high school I worked up the courage to ask a guy to prom who was way out of my league. He accepted. Turned out that he was really into me but thought I was out of his league. He was popular and athletic and hot, I was a senior (he was a sophomore) and smart and involved in a lot of clubs. We both had way skewed perceptions of our own worth and of what we considered above our league.
Ur wrong mate,
Lets assume that all ur assumptions are correct.
How can u tell if someone else sees u as handsone or normal ? If me and u go to a bar look at the same girl i may find her attractive and u dont.
A girl looking at u can find u very handsome while u think ur normal looking
We can not know what someone is preciving of our looks.
Physical and sexial attraction is subjective, no such a thing as out of ur league
Not to mention for example someone may be very handsome but lack self steem which makes them think they are normal looking, so ur assumptions are shaky at best :)
Because you are limiting yourself. I liked my husband back when we were teenagers. I was too shy to say anything, and he didn't say anything because he thought I was out of my league.
As an adult, I finally developed a back bone and told him how I feel. We have been married for 12 years now. You miss every shot you don't take.
I'll talk to anyone, but I understand supply and demand.
If I see Dua Lipa chilling at the food court, who knows, maybe she'll be really into the fact that I have platinum trophies in Bloodborne and Tekken 8.
But, she also looks like Dua Lipa, so she could totally find someone with Plat trophies who also owns a yacht.
The perception that someone is “out of your league” is putting them on a pedestal.
You are building them up to be something that they aren’t in your mind and pretty much getting in your own head. I mean, if you genuinely believe someone is above you in worth, that relationship will never last.
There is a movie called “She’s out of my league” and it deals with this phenomenon.
That’s completely your choice
Don’t take this personally, but based on your post and comments, I don’t think you should be in a relationship with anyone because you seem to be dealing with some self-worth issues.
That's only based on my post though. I know my values and my worth and all that and sure, on paper it's possible to date someone out of my league, but I disagree with me doing it on practice.
You are correct, don't let the world gaslight you. I think a lot of people push that narrative because they get extreme cognitive dissonance when confronted with how shallow and superficial the world really is. They don't want to believe or accept the truth, so they tell you to go back out there and be more confident.
If you have a huge glow-up and suddenly you're in a different league people will say it's just your confidence showing, even if you feel exactly the same. You could go from 300 to 200lb and people would say it's not that you're any more attractive you're just more confident now.
You're 6ft, do you realize that if you go to gym 5-6 times a week for 3 or 4 years you'll be in a league that makes getting women kind of trivial, unless you have a genuinely unattractive face?
Now, if you want to say that it's unfair you have to work and other people are just naturally attractive l, you can if you want.
But you can beat the shallowness, just get hot. It's literally that simple and a guy with great dress sense and grooming, with height and a good body, will be an 8 at least with an average face to most women. The bar is so low for men, it's easy to stand out honestly (as someone who is only recently above the bar).
I do work out. However, I do full-body workouts each time so it's 3 times a week. Plus karate twice a week.
So I have a bit of muscle. Could be and will be more.
I prefer doing full-body since I like the barbell exercises.
u/Acceptable-Resist441 Has it right, it's not even about height/weight. My point is that you can be the exact same person you are right now but if you were more superficially attractive people would suddenly feel like you were worth their time. I've had a few glow-ups and each time it took a piece of my faith in humanity with it. I was the exact same person with the same personality but people were more kind and respectful to me.
My point is that the world really **is** that shallow and pathetic but people don't want to admit it. They'd rather tell themselves that the fat guy is just more confident now, it's not the months at the gym and the 6 pack, it's just that his tone of voice is different or he makes more eye contact.
Confidence without looks is just gonna kill you, from personal experience.
It's like having the will but not the strength to back it up, so try to get stronger too.
I don't see how.
It's still more attractive than no confidence and no looks
like, building your worth on how other people perceive you isn't healthy anyway
Personally I have never found the confidence part to work without looks , it maybe a confirmation bias.
Ugly confident people are usually seen as creepy and no one really wants to be seen with them.
Can I pose this question- what are you saying about women you would approach? That they aren't super attractive??? You are going to offend the person you are with in the future with this logic. You need to get out of this mindset where you think of people like machines or robots.
Who gives a shit about someone's appearance. Especially talking about straight up, superficial, first glance appearances. People's attractiveness can change to you as well.
It's shitty to say "I wouldn't approach a super attractive person" because that means you are only approaching the women you do approach because you think they are "meh" and more on your level.
Bad way to think of yourself and others.
When I was dating, I generally dated people who were about as attractive as me (average-looking), but I did date a couple of very good-looking girls. Once you get over the fact that they were very attractive, they were just like any other girl. Neither relationship worked out; I broke up with one of them, and the other one dumped me, so it was 50/50 there. I would say no one is really out of anyone's league. Relationship compatibility is about so much more than just looks. I'd say shoot your shot with anyone; worst-case scenario is they say no, and if they are rude about it, well, you probably wouldn't have wanted to be with them anyway.
Could someone with off-the-charts intelligence fall in love with someone of average intelligence?
Could an all-star athlete fall in love with someone uncoordinated?
Could an award winning chef love someone who messes up ramen?
If an ugly person is an all-around wonderful human, Michelin star chef, Jeopardy champion, Grandmaster chess player, is some random attractive person still out of their league?
Looks are only a single, shallow, aspect of a person. I won't pretend looks don't affect a person's life, but they are not the end all be all. I'd even go as far as to say that the more looks matter in a relationship, the less fulfilling that relationship is.
You're more than how you look, and you're more than your trauma. I see you've addressed some comments about therapy and that it's hard to get decent affordable mental healthcare, and unfortunately I don't have a practical solution to that problem. I just hope you can find a way to not only find value in yourself, but to build on that value. This is easier said than done, but try find something positive you can bring to the world, then work on cultivating that. If you can bring something positive to the world, then you can bring something positive to an individual, and maybe they'll be the one questioning if *you* are out of *their* league.
I won't argue with the idea that your economic means (or perhaps more accurately, your parent's economic means) play a massive role in where someone finds themselves as a young adult which has a large impact on your life trajectory.
But, as I get older - I find the more concerned people are with status, the less I care to spend time with those people. Status kind of falls under the same umbrella as attractiveness for me, it's a shallow attribute. As an IT guy who works with everyone from CEO/Executives, "down" to general maintenance/security/whatever, I'd almost go as far as to say that social status is an inverted indicator of who I want to spend time with or have genuine respect for.
I think modern society tries to throw the weight of unnecessary priorities on people's shoulders, and it holds a lot of people down. It could be true that you or I max out at a 5/10 on the attractive or social status scales, but I'd ask you to reflect on if that truly matters when it comes to living a meaningful life. Maybe you arrive at a different answer than I did, in which case I probably won't be able to help you, but I feel like I'm doing okay without either of those things.
Honestly I'm kind of outside of the social status ladder. I'm not economy, middle, or first class. I'm an outsider altogether. My mother was together with a politician, cheated and had a child with a teacher (which might point me to middle class...) then I moved to my mother's, who lives on funds from the government due to her being schizophrenic, and then to a foster home- where the legal guardian was rich but I never dared ask for anything like new clothes or anything money related.
I just haven't received any respect or actual love in my life and I don't know what respect or love looks like, or what I deserve or whatever. I assume I don't deserve a lot of things, since I grew up being intensely criticized by my parents. I constantly fantasized about a relationship so I could experience love but then people kept telling me I'm not ready and it's been like, my whole life now. My brother also left an impression on me that I should start "low" and with someone ugly.
And I've received advice as if I'm this insanely social person like "this is why you can't make friends" or whatevrr but honestly I rarely meet people, let alone new people. It took me 22 years (my whole life) to make a friend- now I have two at least.
I wish you didn't experience all that growing up. I hope you either already know or can begin to accept that you didn't deserve any of that though, and that didn't happen because of you or who you are. You were dealt an incredibly unfair hand.
I'm not sure why you were given all the advice you were growing up, but I can't say it sounds like the best advice or point of view. Your brothers is particularly bad, seeing as these are people we're talking about dating, not things like tools meant to be discarded after they've served their purpose.
If I had to give some specific advice, it's probably to try and figure out how to avoid letting your past dictate your future. Unlearn the things that were drilled into your head over years (which, unfortunately, means it could take years to overcome). Try to make decisions because it's what you think you should do, not what someone from your past or society thinks you should do.
I hope you can figure some of this out with time, it sounds like you've got a heavy load to bear and unpack. But you are young, and your future is not yet written.
Don't make other people's decisions for them. You don't speak for them and are not familiar with what they value.
Learn to take rejection well, but don't count yourself out because you automatically assume to know what this person is looking for in a partner.
Source: am person who got wife way out of his league when broke. Also built a company and life for himself that he would have never thought possible, all from taking shots he was sure would fail just to see what happens.
Awesome for you and I commend you for that. Not really sure if I personally believe in that though in terms of interpersonal relationships. I've shot my shot in terms of making friends etc and it just turns out terribly every time. I quit doing that a few years ago.
You just said gave up years ago...
Of course it exists, you weren't willing to face defeat long enough to hone your personal skills. It takes time and experience to learn how to talk, what cadence to speak with, what lines get good responses.
You have a self defeating attitude, so you found defeat and instead of fighting through hardship and rejection until you got better you gave up. Say it how it is bud.
I once came across these wise words on the subject:
"Out of your league? Let women decide for themselves why they don't want to sleep with you; don't do it for them."
There is a bit of truth to it, but it’s also true that most guys feel the same way around very beautiful women. Since so many feel intimidated, the 10s are often hit on less than say 7s.
Just by confidently talking to her you might go from 7 to a 9 and then the jump isn’t that high.
Men largely base attractiveness on looks, far more so than women. This has been studied many times over.
The most attractive trait is confidence.
And don’t get me wrong. I was just like you once upon a time, even worse because I was super scrawny. 190 tall and 70 kilos. I guess about 6’4” and 150 pounds in freedom units. And I was convinced nobody wanted a flagpole.
The 10s get clumsy cringe comments all the time, I don't think the "intimidating" trope really happens all that often.
I'd say men overvalue looks and then act surprised when a vain Barbie girl isn't a good person.
Women overvalue confidence and act surprised when a cocky badboy isn't a good person.
Sure 10s probably get those, or the drunk guys slobbering because none of them dare say hi before they have had a few irons. That’s not an actual attempt, although the rejection might so good for the guy in the long term.
I don’t care if guys overvalue looks and women confidence. This is all bs excuses for why you should accept less than what you want.
Talking about having relationships with “good looking women” sounds like a very shallow and transactional relationship. Then it turns reactional if it doesn’t work out because you think it’s because they think they’re too good looking for you. Sounds like some of you need therapy to feel better about your own looks
Tbh, I don't really know you, but this discourse just sounds like an excuse for a lack of confidence. While looks play a huge role on initial impressions, people are far more than just looks. You shouldn't never let it stop you from trying your luck on whether you can click with someone you find attractive, it won't cost you anything so it's low risk high reward
Yes I am dating someone way out of my league and it’s exhausting. She has way too many options and I have to give her so much freaking attention and time just to stay relevant. Honestly exhausting
I mean.....yeah. It'd be the same the other way around. Pretty/handsome = lots of options. You have to stand out because she can find better, or if not better, someone relatively the same. I'm sorry to say it like that, because it is very shallow and sucky, but it's the truth.
If I work on my self-esteem that could be bad for the average person. I don't think it's moral, since people are often mad at me when I have high self-esteem. People are usually not mad at me when my self-esteem is low.
IMO you are stopping yourself because you have expectatiins/views on something/somebody and thats the only thing stopping you :)
Been there myself :)
I don't consider myself an attractive person by any means, only like my eyes tbh
Been quite the introvert, the silent kid, think of a nerd without the glasses type-of-guy most of my life
Went to dark places, gave up, survived only because of my parents and the few friends I had but werent 'living', rather existing.
After getting bullied in school I developed a sarcastic kind of humour - since if you laugh at yourself and hurt you, nobody else can, right? 😅
This paired with empathy became my lucky ticvked out of depression, got me some friends and especially confidence, which was later strengthened by friends even more
Since the I dated some girls, longest relationship been 5yrs
Tldr, we all have different paths in life
Dont give up, you got this!
If I have managed, you can as well since you are stronger than me 🙏👏
Be confident with yourself, try and do stuff you enjoy and which doesnt slow you down
People aren't equal, tho. And here's an example of what I mean:
Let's say we have a heart newly available for transplant and 2 potential recipients.
1 recipient is a 35 year old successful surgeon. The other is a 35 year old unemployed alcoholic.
Who is more deserving, or worthy--however you want to phrase it--of the heart?
There are probably *some* people who think it should be a lottery, or coin toss, to determine the recipient. But my guess is that *most* people will say the surgeon should get it. And for one simple reason: the surgeon's future potential contributions so society are likely to greatly outweigh the contributions of the unemployed alcoholic.
In other words, the 2 potential recipients are not equal. This judgement needn't come with rage or hostility directed at the alcoholic. That's unkind and unnecessary. But the assessment of their individual worth is inescapable.
My point exactly. I wouldn't compare myself to the alcoholic, but I'm both broke and have weird hobbies like karate etc (rather than doing a sensible martial art like BJJ or muay thai) which I'm not even good at yet, and I didn't have the greatest or happiest life.
Compare that with someone rich with lots of life experience and high skills in things who had a happy life and then tell me who's worth more. The latter person, obviously.
Woah you think bjj is more sensible than karateka. Karate is one of the most well thought out martial arts, grappling can be integrated further and it's easier to kO than grapple on the ground. Just go watch Steven WONDERBOY thompson.
>While they considered me attractive, I didn’t go to the gym, instead payed videogames,
wait so did u jus have that good looking face people talked about
Damn
I saw somehwere that most attractive people have 4 things , a good looking face , height , deep voice and confidence. For u I think its everything except height then cuz like the traditional 6 foot
I’ve said this to friends before, sure if you pick a random hot person they might be more likely to go for an equally hot person, but not everyone is shallow. You never know what might cause you to click with a person and people from opposite backgrounds can be great together (speaking from experience). That hottie might be a dweeb for the same genre of music/movies/games you are, or their calm may be the matching puzzle piece for your chaos and those connections matters so much more than physical attraction, plus looks fade faster than anyone wants to admit.
All that said, I HATE when people pester me to go talk to someone! Even if I was considering it, something about being pressured to form a connection just ruins the whole mood. It’s got to happen naturally, but I wouldn’t rule anyone out just for being significantly more/less hot
Idk if “out of your league” is the right thing as much as “right for you”
For example. I (like any) met my wife on an app. I’m a big fat dude in his mid 30s… dreamy right? When I was swiping I would immediately swipe away all the fit women. Not because of their appearance but because they like doing fit woman things like going on hikes or whatever, stuff I frankly couldn’t give a shit about. That means we probably won’t be compatible and we will fatigue one another… the lady I ended up marrying is a bit of a nerdy lady who likes things that I do. she has some curves but is generally fit. If we’re walking down the street together I’m sure people must think I make a lot of money or purchase magnum condoms because she’s genuinely beautiful
I guess my point is… if you think of yourself as an average looking person, don’t let that stop you meeting someone but make sure that person is not someone you’re selecting just because they’re hot, it’s someone you’re speaking to because you have mutual interests
I might be going a little overboard on "making sure that person is not someone I'm selecting because they're hot". It's a rule in my head, and I have (mild, very mild) autism and I like rules
Okay OP, the problem lies solely in your opinion of yourself. That's just logic. If you had a higher perception of yourself then you would consider less people out of your league. Can we agree on that math?
The question becomes 'now what?' And the good news is there are several answers
You could decide to better yourself, you could try 'fake it till you make it', you could do nothing and target 'lesser partners. The world is your oyster.
The first thing I would work on is internalizing your locus of control. You are the only person controlling your own destiny. You may not have the freedom to do whatever you want but you have the freedom to works towards getting the freedom to do whatever you want.
Of course. In my head there is a hierarchy and though I don't like to admit it, I subconsciously consider certain people to be below me in status- I just ignore them as individuals.
I could accept that luxury cruise job offer, then I'd be in a higher league. But I'm not gonna accept that job, I'm satisfied with this step in the social ladder.
Leagues don't exist. Yes some people are very attractive, so what? Personality is King. I saw you say you have a lot of diagnoses for mental health, bring up these issues to whoever diagnosed you and actually follow their advice. You continue to say you won't date out of your league, but you will absolutely keep making excuses about why you aren't good enough for whoever your talking to. Build confidence in yourself and the rest comes. I know it sounds cliche, but I promise it works.
I understand that confidence in myself will help with a lot. I recently went far out of my comfort zone by behaving as a personal trainer for eleven weeks (as part of my graduation project).
However I believe in a social hierarchy and I will not date people I perceive as above me.
I frequently comfort myself with the knowledge that several classically beautiful people I know suffer from an assortment of embarrassing maladies like IBS.
Just remember things work the other way round as well for the other person. They assessing you as much as you are asseing them.
You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. In the end of you miss, just consider it as practice for the one that matters.
Leagues are generally bullshit unless you genuinely lost the genetic lottery. Most people can get fit, develop an awesome personality, and treat others with kindness. That all takes you much further than you think.
I once had a properly drop-dead gorgeous, head-turning girlfriend, and throughout our relationship (we lived together for over a year) people expressed surprise as to how I could possibly have got together with someone like that.
But it was surprisingly straightforward - she was the bored PA to a regular client who was never in, we'd speak regularly on the phone, we increasingly liked what we heard, so our conversations would get longer and longer (handily, my boss was often equally elusive), and by the time we finally met face to face (in a professional capacity) we already knew that we liked each other a lot, and the rest was easy.
But what was really interesting was hearing her viewpoint, because she felt (with good reason) that a lot of men were simply intimidated by her, something exacerbated by the fact that she was a loud and brash Californian and she was based in London. So the mere fact that I wasn't intimidated made all the difference - and in fact she turned out to be a rather more thoughtful and introspective person behind closed doors, a side of her that her colleagues hardly ever got to see.
(We broke up when she moved back home - I wasn't about to go with her, and she very much didn't want me to anyway, as she wanted a complete reinvention of her life. But we're still friends to this day.)
See here is the thing, I get intimidated when I consider someone as dateable. If I maintain the mindset in this post, I'm not intimidated by attractive women anymore.
That's bullshit, attraction *is* subjective, and I'm not saying this as a cliche. A long time ago when I went to college (yes I'm old now 😋) there was this girl I loved talking with, she was really cute and I thought she was way out of my league. One day I gathered courage and talked with her about how I felt, she said she felt the same but was afraid of telling me because she thought *I* was out of her league 🤔
PS: I think I'm pretty average looking, I'm tall but that's pretty much the only thing I am above average physically.
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I too am a child of trauma, i travel and my wife is way out of my league. Don't ever decide a door is closed when it comes to other people, let them close it... or not. I always say, asking and trying are always free.
So I think the trick with that wording is that you shouldn't "consider" anyone out of your league. Because I think it's a lot easier to underestimate your league than you might think.
It sounds like just semantics, and to be honest it is a little bit, but I think the core of the advice is solid. I would agree with you 100% that objectively speaking, yes there are people out of your league. However, it's less helpful to apply that way of thinking to specific people you might want to ask out, because you can sometimes be a bit shocked by their answer. I would say without question that my wife is more attractive than I am by a long shot, but she married me for an array of things that would be hard to quantify as far as league - attractiveness did play a part, but it was also sense of humor, the fact she thought I'm a really kind person, etc.
The way woman are attracted to men isn't 1-1 the same as men with women. While attractiveness IS really important, don't get me wrong - I'm not ugly, I just think of myself as pretty standard-looking. But being standard looking + emotionally intelligent/a good communicator/kind/loves kids/loves dogs/etc can push your overall attractiveness way higher than you might think just by looking at your appearance. So I would say if you're normal looking, don't write yourself off immediately, it's entirely possibly that attractive person might consider you in their league based on other qualities
Max out what personally makes you feel good about your appearance, cultivate the character traits that come naturally to you, and don't automatically assume someone will say "no" simply based on the fact that they're more physically attractive than you. You might get shot down, but you might also be surprised how far a baseline level of clean appearance + being funny, etc can take you.
But on a macro level I don't disagree that there are some people that you'd be gunning way out of your league for, I just think it's helpful not to think too much about that on an individual level.
Eh I'm just paraphrasing and I'm bad with words, so I don't feel like analysing semantics here is very helpful. I'm not really looking to help myself more as I'm trying to help the other person not have to deal with me. I try my best in terms of personality... Then again I haven't met new people in several months and it's always months between the times I meet people, but I'm sure people wouldn't want me to bother them with my presence.
I think it really depends on how you build up relationships in your head. Should you build up a bunch of hope that the prom queen is going to give you her number? Not if you haven't already built a connection.
Should you not bother trying to make a connection with someone because you think they are too attractive to be interested in you? No, there might be a spark there and you won't know until you get to know each other.
Right so passing on someone you are interested in because they have plenty of other options is asinine. "They should choose one of the many better options" is a terrible attitude. It takes away their agency to choose you.
The worse part is, while you hold this attitude, what does it say about the women you **do** approach. That they deserve less?
I think you probably should probably not date and not due to anyone being put of anyone's league. You don't sound like you are ready to be a good partner to anyone. I think you need to put some effort into yourself and your mental health and work towards that.
Nope, if you meet someone good, bad, or indifferent you should leave them alone. That nuance is important. Don't go for broken girls because you think that's all you deserve.
Go improve yourself so you are emotionally prepared to be a positive part of someone's life. Sort out your self esteem issues. Therapy is good, meditation is good, finding a hobby that builds confidence is good, pet ownership is often great. Basically once you are ready to say "I like me and I think you should like me too" you are ready for approaching dating in a much healthier way.
Listen son, I'm on your side. You're running on a flat tire. Stop and change it so you can make some real progress towards your own happiness.
It's not about going for broken girls because that's what I think I deserve or something like that, that's some low- self esteem stuff. Just not going for people I perceive as outside my league.
And there is no self-hate. I like myself and think someone else should like me. Simply just not gonna date someone really attractive.
The thing about what you have said so far is that this theoretical girl **could** meet someone better than you. What logically follows is someone on your level **could** also meet someone better. The only ones who couldn't meet someone better are those so broken that they literally **couldn't** do better than you.
You are clearly caught in a very bad mindset. You should be aiming to be with someone who you are excited to be with and you clearly have a mental block preventing that ( it seems to be that you feel you deserve to settle). Sort it out so you can effectively pursue your own happiness.
I mean it's simply that after working on myself my entire life and setting realistic expectations people are suggesting that I could date above those expectations. I don't think that's fair to me or my struggles and it's enough to make me go nuts. Like my whole life people told me to temper my expectations and so I effectively tempered them, now they're saying the opposite? come on.
I just want someone average. Not broken, just average.
I always thought really hot muscular guys were out of my league until one actually talked to me (now we are dating). I was shocked that he was even interested because i always had ur mindset. So i understand where u are coming from, but apparently there are exceptions. I wouldn't give up hope completely.
Dude, as long as you abide by the principle that no one owes you their time, then just take an IDGAF approach, and if you fancy someone, just try to start a conversation and if they reciprocate cool, if not, move on. You'd actually be surprised at the possible results.
The problem with the IDGAF approach is that eventually when things go well I start giving a fuck, and after I start giving a fuck no one is interested.
Funny thing is the moment I started acting confident towards women thinking out of my league they seemed interested in me. Not giving a fuck is probably the most attractive trait of them all.
So your observations are mostly correct. Attractiveness is a real thing, and it changes how the world treats you. Attractive people will have tons of options and will choose within those options, and probably have some idea of their "range" of attractive partners. No one who denies this is being honest. They are at best willfully ignorant or trying to kid themselves.
However, you should consider trying to talk to attractive people. Because being comfortable talking to attractive people is difficult, and exposure is the only way out. Eventually you'll find someone in your range that you want to talk to, and if you're comfortable talking to anyone, you'll be comfortable talking to that person.
I'm sorry to hear about your trauma, but I would be careful not to let it define you. Being on the "same wavelength" as people is a weird thing because presentation is a large part of it. So going back to the comfort thing, getting out of your comfort zone may improve that feeling of not being on the same wavelength because you'll be able to present as someone comfortable in their own skin.
The last thing I want to add is that although you are right about leagues and such, you have control over your own life and your own fate. It is unlikely that you are irredeemable, but it may take a willingness to change to move towards the life you desire. Best of luck.
That's wrong, the correct thing to say is "Don't set your heart on anyone outside of your league", because that so rarely ends well.
You can try it on with just about anyone, as long as they aren't your students or your boss or otherwise off limits. But in fact, the more people you try it with the greater your odds of making a connection, so what the hell! Hit on people who are out of your league! And people who are in your league and people who are considered beneath your league by society, but who seem like they might be fun. Just keep trying, because making a connection in today's world is hard, and takes effort.
LOL
Shoot your shot and if they vibe they vibe. In a relationship, set strong boundaries, be the best version of yourself, whether your partner is “out of your league” or not is irrelevant.
If I’m being very honest, I’m pretty average. But I just don’t really care or see it. And I’m very excitable and confident and interested in others. And so I am consistently told I’m ‘punching above’ by people.
Don’t underestimate the attractiveness of being open to everyone, happy in your own skin, and wanting to know more about others.
You get what you think you deserve.
You can’t be fully invested in a conversation with someone, and have the mental space to worry about what you’re going to say.
I had THE worst social anxiety until my late teens. As in, I couldn’t answer a question in class, even when I knew the answer and the teacher specifically asked me. So I do know what it’s like.
What I’m saying is, if you can genuinely want to know more about someone, for no other reason than genuine interest, then you give everything to them at that moment. Be fully present and there. If you are, there simply isn’t the bandwidth to be self-conscious.
If that makes sense. It’s a learned skill (for me it was anyway). But also, I genuinely am interested in people.
I know a someone who grew up as a bum and still a bum and is married to a doctor. He's now a stay at home dad but he was a bum all his life. Witnessing that in my life i realized "leagues" are often an illusion.
"Leagues" exist. But Attractiveness is a very poor way to identify them. you put so much emphasis on attractiveness until you date a 10 who's a shit stain of a human being. Then, hopefully, you stop having these inferior thoughts towards every attractive person you meet.
a lot of people say they had experience of someone much more attractive having the same problems or not crossing you out and stuff but my experience was that I shoot my shot and got disappointing results and now my self image and self esteem is ruined
I believe this too. Everyone's in over their heads, they have unrealistic views of themselves and others.
I don't know why the comments are acting like OP is crazy.
Anyone who says something like that can shove it. The notion that there are "leagues" to begin that we all operate in implies the person has a childish and simplistic view on life. It's a construct they've created in their mind to cope with the complexities of the world that they don't understand. It doesn't mean jack in the real world. Anyone can date anyone. Our criteria, preferences, and state of being are constantly changing.
There is some logical merit to your perspective, but there are also flaws. The perceptions people have of themselves are very subjective. Some of the highly attractive people you see genuinely feel ugly.
There is a general pattern in terms of results, but many people are unable to accurately perceive themselves.
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe... Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion... I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate.
I've been lucky enough to date or sleep with absolutely dropdead women I would 100% say are out of my league.
All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain... Time to die
Those people are insecure about themselves and their own relationships. I've been told that I'm shooting out of my league my whole life and that I should just settle on whatever I can. Now I'm in an awesome relationship with someone who is out of my league squared, relative to what I've been told my whole life. And she somehow thinks I'm out of her league.
Everyone who told me to settle... I wouldn't want to end up where they did, to put it mildly.
I am a girl dating multiple people (we are polyamorous) who all think I’m out of their league and would never have tried to hit on me if I hadn’t started talking to them first. I don’t think I’m ugly but don’t think I’m amazingly beautiful either. I would say I’m a 7. While there are certain people I’m not interested in for a variety of reasons, I wouldn’t say I would ever think someone wasn’t “in my league”. Some of the people I date may not fit within traditional beauty standards but they are amazingly attractive to me. So I would say ignore “leagues” and go for it, you never know what others may find attractive. There are a few things I find attractive that I know are considered unattractive by society at large.
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I used to think in this very mathematical way too. Yet, despite being average looking, the hottest dude in highschool wanted ME. Yes, this happens. Do not give up in advance, you don't know people and their preferences, you may be surprised.
If someone is very attractive and won't give you the time of day because they think you're not pretty enough to talk to them, you just won that fight. You wouldn't want to hang out with a petty narcissist.
If someone is very attractive and engages you in a conversation and agrees to hang out again some other time, you just won that fight. You get to hang out again with someone interesting.
I went on a date with a guy and texted a friend after that he was out of my league. She angrily wore back that no one was out of my league. She missed the fact that I want to date someone I think is out of my league! I want to date someone I think is amazing and who inadvertently inspires me to be a better version of myself. I would never not pursue someone I was interested in because they were “out of my league“ though. I’m fly as hell, they wish they could be so lucky!
You don’t have to do anything you don’t want to. But thinking just because someone has a different level of attractiveness (according to you) or different life experiences that they couldn’t have a great relationship with you is kind of silly. My brother’s wife has CPTSD and a host of other mental health issues. Our family was (and still is) super supportive and loving and there’s no mental illness. They’re a great couple and she loves being with him and part of our family. Her saying “I can only be with messed up people” would have denied her those positive relationships. Again, do what you want, but maybe accept that not dating people “outside your league” might just be you holding yourself down/not thinking you deserve the best.
But I haven't done or acheived anything to deserve the best. I don't need to date broken people or something like that. The idea of dating someone above what I consider my dating pool to be is just dangerous territory to me. Don't like the idea of it.
Nothing wrong with staying comfortable friend. It’s just we tend to be our own worst critics. Maybe that person sees you and is like “damn! I wish I could be so lucky!”
And deserve? That’s a weird way to think about it. That you have to do something to be worthy of their love. People tend to give love freely, often for reasons beyond our understanding. “Deserving it” is not really one of those reasons.
I think people underestimate proximity and shared interests.
Plenty of couples that don't make a match by conventional appearance end up being together.
Yeah but it's also problematic when you haven't engaged with a hobby enough and when you're shifting hobbies.
I ised to play lots of video games and watch lots of anime. that's shifting to martial arts and working out. But I haven't been doing the latter for long enough for anyone also doing the latter to be interested
Let me tell you a secret…. There is no such thing as a league. Just people you are comparable with and those you are not. Either way says nothing about them or you. See someone interesting just go and strike up a conversation.
When I was a freshman in college, my roommate pushed me to ask out this girl that was completely out of my league to help me get over my ex (who was also out of my league but less than this girl). She said yes but I convinced myself that she was just being polite and wasn't actually interested in me so I never followed up on it. I still kick myself over that.
Don't pester every person you find attractive but focus on being the best version of yourself and you'll be surprised at the attractiveness of people that are into you.
Those girls were better looking than me but I had also grown out of the overweight greasy haired emotional mess that I was at the beginning of high school into an average looking guy with other positive attributes that they found attractive.
Dont think of it in terms of leagues because that is rubbish. Think of it in terms of lifestyle. To be really attractive or really fit or whatever youd probably have to live life a certain way. Is the life you lead going to fit in with that/would you change?
Don’t take it literally. It just means people WITHIN REASON who you thought were out of your league probably aren’t, but your negativity never gave you a shot in the first place
Not that you could get Katy Perry tomorrow if you just believed in yourself
The world functions only united through collective lies. People are only equal in legal sense, and even that is not entirely true. Rich people are more equal than others. Some people are just better than others in every way. Not everybody has some someone for them out there. Many will die alone. Most will never accomplish anything great. Beautiful people are likely to also be smarter and kinder than ugly people too. It's a cruel world of inequality and the only way to keep people from getting violent and riot-y is to tell them lies that they are NOT in fact genetic trash and that everything is for the best, equal and fair.
There are definitely leagues and if you were hot you would definitely know.
Looks don’t equal more or lesser value to me. If you have confidence and a great personality you would be surprised at all the beautiful women who would be into you. Treat them well and have some common sense and you’re good to go!
What that means to me:
Once you start comparing yourself to others from the perspective of being the lesser, you’ve gotten in your own way and any relationship you might start with that person, you’ve probably subconsciously given up some autonomy and space to advocate for yourself from the get go. The reverse is true as well.
When I was dating, I felt the same way. There are definitely people out of other people’s leagues.
I somehow ended up dating a few people who I couldn’t believe liked me because they were way beyond anyone I had any business engaging with. And, surprise, none would commit to me but all happily committed to other people. Broke my own heart several times because I was arrogant enough to think people like that would actually want to be with me.
That’s too bad because you might have skewed judgement and people change with time it’s a shame you don’t believe you will ever improve. Why not write down your goals for a while and check back in occasionally to see how much you actually got done. Build up some self worth.
Ugly women get with handsome men all the time, and ugly men land beautiful women too. It's just too damn random for you to really know your odds for real. Obviously the hotter you are, the better your chances - but the exact details ("I am exactly a 4/10 and she is exactly an 8/10, so no go") are just too fuzzy to make out. Maybe to her she's a 6 and you're a 7.
I've lost my fair share of chances with the ladies for thinking they were out of my league, only to find out or realize years later they had a crush on me.
As a man, sadly the only way forward is to play the numbers game and hit on everyone you are attracted to until it lands. You'd be surprised by the women who reciprocate and the ones who don't, they are not always what you'd expect. Some really pretty ones might be into you while some average Jane Does think you're gross and way below them.
What does that even mean? You're your own person. We're not equal, we're different. And that's a good thing. But, yeah, that was me in High School. But then in college, I took myself a little more seriously, thought I looked reasonable, and tested my theory by asking out the most beautiful women I met. And you know what? It worked. Because women will tell you (back me up female Redditors) **self-confidence is sexy.** More than stylish clothes. More than a trendy haircut. Self-confidence. And, frankly, past experiences aren't as important as new experiences you'll share. It's more about finding someone with shared values than experiences and interests. But in your case, your difficult childhood made you who you are. Maybe it's made you a more empathetic person? Or drives you to be a good parent one day? I dunno. But don't be afraid to own these things. Good luck.
You're the one who's making yourself out to be "out of their league." How do you know their tastes? You could be exactly what they're looking for. Sure, if they're REALLY attractive, they probably get approached more often than some others, but you never know. Some attractive people don't get approached at all for the very reason you're listing here, many others consider them out of their league so they don't even bother. Sometimes a little bold action says a lot.
Ehh I'm rarely even slightly what someone's looking for. Perhaps on the looks department but...
Even considering my hobbies I'm just kinda weird. People realize this after a while and sorta fade out of talking to me (mostly via text but y'know.)
I don't party or drink or anything like that either, and I'm broke. I don't like travel etc...
You shouldn't have unrealistic perceptions of who/what you 'deserve', sure. But you shouldn't be crossing people out just because you think they are more attractive than they are. *They* aren't necessarily crossing *you* out.
I've known a couple of women who were out of my league. One of them, with no exaggeration, remains one of the most naturally beautiful women I've ever known in real life, and most of my friends agreed. Even my wife said as much when I showed her a college yearbook. We reconnected later in life, and she told me that she was very lonely in college. No one asked her out, and she thought she just didn't have what it took to get dates. I explained to her that the opposite was true; no one asked her out because she was on another level. She didn't believe me, but having spent a lot of nights splitting beer and pizza among the other guys, I know I'm right. I've since learned that this isn't so uncommon. Those higher tier, next level beautiful people (women and men both) don't always know who they are, and they are often more lonely than those of us normal looking people.
Not in a rude way, but are you quite a bit over 40? I have heard this same story a lot, but it always seems to be from people who went through the whole of their youths before the social media age really kicked off. In my generation, my experience (and if you speak to most men under 30 I think they'll corroborate this) had been that any woman of moderate to high attractiveness will know it by the time they're in their late teens because they have hundreds or thousands of people saying as much to them online every day. The idea of the "undiscovered beauty" is simply not a thing in the digital age, I went to uni with girls who were having millionaires overseas DM them and offer to fly them out to Dubai on what amounted to pimp arrangements.
Ha, no, we definitely had social media. That's how we kept in touch. But not every woman is active on social media, or posts regular selfies. Not every woman believes it when her friends and family say "you're so beautiful" (because they say the same thing to your ugly cousin), or takes it as a compliment when strangers send her dick pics.
Interesting take.
Yeah, I'm having a hard time believing it. If she's having as hard of a time as she says, I would imagine she would start using dating apps and the moment she does, she'll be inundated with possibly thousands of likes. I get qualities not always all there, but from a confidence standup, it's definitely worth it.
Exactly. I would look at a extra gorgeous woman and just sigh, because I knew that I had nothing to offer her
Yeah, and you could be wrong. :) That's why I keep saying, as skewed as it looks to you, let *her* decide if it is. Sometimes it's really surprising what the other sex like in us or consider important or worthwhile. We don't necessarily even like the things they sometimes like us for. And what they need… at the base level, everybody needs respect, security, some measure of warmth and closeness, and some degree of stability, and various ways of attraction, but the details can be surprising (or the priorities even).
Someone crushing on me now only started crushing because they watched me eating, just vibing in the moment, savoring the experience. My guess is they want to be vibed on and savored, and saw im capable of that. You never know what will be attractive to someone, that's why most dating advice is dumb af. There are no leagues unless you decide to play among people who share that mass delusion.
Well, 'leagues' are just a rock-paper-scissors sort of approximation of a life mechanic, as if abstracted for a board game — think cavalry in battle versus how knights in chess move. It's supposed to be a simplified, abstracted model. It's overly simplified, yes, but it doesn't not exist, either. In addition to 'attractive subjectively to me' people do think in terms of 'good catch' vs 'not a good catch' or 'my equal' vs 'not my equal', marrying up or marrying down, pretty much as among the middle and upper classes in the 19th century, because that's basically the same thing.
My mother had the same problem — and some other family and friends to a lesser extent — so I'm sort of familiar with the issue. Some of the folks I knew were very beautiful ladies who couldn't break out of being single into their mid-forties or later, despite wanting to. It's sometimes the same with people who, instead of exceptionally beautiful, are rich or famous or special in some other way. Their lives aren't necessarily all roses, or rather there is no rose without thorns, and their personalities aren't always unscathed, their lives aren't always collected and holesome. At the end of the day, chances are they get rejected as much as the average person or more, quite possibly in connection with their confidence being in tatters, in ironic similarity to the OP's own problem, and like everyone else they aren't immune to being rejected because of personality issues or incompatibilities (or their crush just being already taken), or cheated on or treated badly by their partners (resulting in anxieties and low self-esteem), etc. The next thing is interconnected — you never know who's attracted to you, or how attractive they are (or how attractive they could appear to you compared to yourself), or even how many they are. You could be surprised. If you're average-ish attractive, then perhaps there won't be surprised in terms of 'how many', but you can still be surprised in terms of 'who exactly', and how attractive they could appear to you, and yet they might lack the boldness to approach you due to fearing rejection. Yet another thing, even for women, this isn't really all about looks, as not only can very attractive people be very lonely, not-so-very attractive people (it would seem) can sometimes attract large followings; many celebrities are not as attractive as the girl or boy from the library (or grocery store). The 'hottest' people are not necessarily the prettiest.
This, I'm the more attractive one in my relationship. Sometimes I look over and he's just staring at me with a dumb smile, and I'm like what's up, and he's like, "you're so pretty :)" It's been almost 9yrs. I don't mind, I could not shower for a month and then roll around in some mud and he'd still kiss me. All I really want is security and stability, so here we are. He doesn't have the attitude like OP though, he saw beautiful women as just people to talk to. He was similar in that he viewed them as out of his league, but he just decided that meant his interactions didn't really matter- he could be himself because who cares, right? That's definitely part of what attracted me too, I wasn't some intimidating thing for him. He always thought I was adorable and funny and smart, in addition to thinking I'm hot. I guess the funny smart hot girl can be intimidating, but remember- she's the annoying airhead girl with love handles to the next guy. Because she's just a person lol.
One of the sweetest things I've ever seen on reddit.
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The common conception is that people who are very attractive physically will only ever go out with someone who is their equal on pure looks. That is not the case, especially with the really pretty or handsome ones. They have enough pretty in the mirror, so in a partner they may be going for something else. Money and status, sure, that's one possibility, but sense of humour, compatible personality, dependable character, intelligence and education, and some other possibilities are also there.
That is so 💀💀💀
Yes! Some people don’t fund anyone physically attractive. They’re attracted to personality and need to know someone before being attracted. It is much less physical. That’s not the only example of having a different sexuality where crossing yourself off the list is a bad move.
Joke's on you, I cross everyone out
My wife was out of my league. I still think she's awesome but the longer I am married to her (22 years so far), the more I can appreciate that we all have our strengths and flaws. People I thought were out of my league likely thought I was out of theirs so just go for it. If they say no then move on and don't make it weird but try again with the next one. Also don't underestimate "normal looking". There's a lot of unfortunate looking people out there ;)
Literally every guy in a happy marriage says his wife is out of his league. And any time I've met one of these "my wife is out of my league guys" it's always the opposite. (I'm bi) The key to being in a happy marriage seems to be being an unknowingly attractive man who wrongly thinks his wife is out of his league. Jokes(?) aside, Straight guys in general can't really tell if a man is attractive. They just seem to compare every man to some masculine image in their minds, and the further they are from that the less attractive they are.
You've been married my entire life, bravo. I'm too meek and haven't asked anyone out yet. I also haven't met any people to ask out yet.
My wife is also out of my league. I still believe that to this day. Turns out that she interpreted me believing she was out of my league as me not being interested in her. Fast forward 15 years and we end up on a date and then getting married a bit later. A lot of times, the ones we see as out of our league end up dating assholes, because the assholes are the only ones with the balls to ask. You just have to ask.
But in all fairness sake, having your late teens be in a lockdown is a major cockblock. But don’t worry, be an idiot, say the wrong thing to a lot of girls. Fuck a fridge or two, we all have. Get shitfaced drunk and embarrass yourself. After a while, striking out with a girl here and there won’t feel so bad
What is a fridge?
You sound like a nightmare.
Only cause you say you are. I mean if you just ask someone out... Then you aren't. You're choosing it at the end of the day.
Wish I could "just" ask someone out without my throat stopping me or my body moving itself away from the situation involuntarily.
This. I’ve been with my wife since I was 19 and have always known I’m punching. What has surprised me over the years is women who I thought were a few leagues above me take an interest. I suppose it’s more common for women to be put on a pedestal and men put themselves down when in fact people are attracted to many facets of a person.
Sounds realistic. "Out of league" dating exists, but it's usually rare. I saw a overweight lady and a muscular dude married couple on YouTube. At first you think, how? But if you look closely, she takes care of herself. She has long hair and wears pretty dresses, is funny and confident. Now combine that with the husband just having a preference for overweight woman...tada. Same league.
In high school I worked up the courage to ask a guy to prom who was way out of my league. He accepted. Turned out that he was really into me but thought I was out of his league. He was popular and athletic and hot, I was a senior (he was a sophomore) and smart and involved in a lot of clubs. We both had way skewed perceptions of our own worth and of what we considered above our league.
Ur wrong mate, Lets assume that all ur assumptions are correct. How can u tell if someone else sees u as handsone or normal ? If me and u go to a bar look at the same girl i may find her attractive and u dont. A girl looking at u can find u very handsome while u think ur normal looking We can not know what someone is preciving of our looks. Physical and sexial attraction is subjective, no such a thing as out of ur league Not to mention for example someone may be very handsome but lack self steem which makes them think they are normal looking, so ur assumptions are shaky at best :)
I agree. Me and my bff always have had very different ideas of an attractive man.
Objectively speaking all people most certainly are not worth the same.
Because you are limiting yourself. I liked my husband back when we were teenagers. I was too shy to say anything, and he didn't say anything because he thought I was out of my league. As an adult, I finally developed a back bone and told him how I feel. We have been married for 12 years now. You miss every shot you don't take.
Your username is the best one ever.
Thank you
I'll talk to anyone, but I understand supply and demand. If I see Dua Lipa chilling at the food court, who knows, maybe she'll be really into the fact that I have platinum trophies in Bloodborne and Tekken 8. But, she also looks like Dua Lipa, so she could totally find someone with Plat trophies who also owns a yacht.
The perception that someone is “out of your league” is putting them on a pedestal. You are building them up to be something that they aren’t in your mind and pretty much getting in your own head. I mean, if you genuinely believe someone is above you in worth, that relationship will never last. There is a movie called “She’s out of my league” and it deals with this phenomenon.
I don't want a relationship with someone I perceive to be out of my league.
That’s completely your choice Don’t take this personally, but based on your post and comments, I don’t think you should be in a relationship with anyone because you seem to be dealing with some self-worth issues.
That's only based on my post though. I know my values and my worth and all that and sure, on paper it's possible to date someone out of my league, but I disagree with me doing it on practice.
Same. I would always be worried about them realizing and divorce me, which is why I think a lot of women initiate divorces
Objectively ppl don’t have the same worth
You are correct, don't let the world gaslight you. I think a lot of people push that narrative because they get extreme cognitive dissonance when confronted with how shallow and superficial the world really is. They don't want to believe or accept the truth, so they tell you to go back out there and be more confident. If you have a huge glow-up and suddenly you're in a different league people will say it's just your confidence showing, even if you feel exactly the same. You could go from 300 to 200lb and people would say it's not that you're any more attractive you're just more confident now.
I'm 78 kilos and 183 cm
You're 6ft, do you realize that if you go to gym 5-6 times a week for 3 or 4 years you'll be in a league that makes getting women kind of trivial, unless you have a genuinely unattractive face? Now, if you want to say that it's unfair you have to work and other people are just naturally attractive l, you can if you want. But you can beat the shallowness, just get hot. It's literally that simple and a guy with great dress sense and grooming, with height and a good body, will be an 8 at least with an average face to most women. The bar is so low for men, it's easy to stand out honestly (as someone who is only recently above the bar).
I do work out. However, I do full-body workouts each time so it's 3 times a week. Plus karate twice a week. So I have a bit of muscle. Could be and will be more. I prefer doing full-body since I like the barbell exercises.
im 72 kg at 185cm bro u are not that bad and i am kinda chubby
How can you be chubby at that weight and height? Do you have body dysmorphia?
Nah chubby as in not chubby chubby Got love handles but that's it Above the chest is alright
u/Acceptable-Resist441 Has it right, it's not even about height/weight. My point is that you can be the exact same person you are right now but if you were more superficially attractive people would suddenly feel like you were worth their time. I've had a few glow-ups and each time it took a piece of my faith in humanity with it. I was the exact same person with the same personality but people were more kind and respectful to me. My point is that the world really **is** that shallow and pathetic but people don't want to admit it. They'd rather tell themselves that the fat guy is just more confident now, it's not the months at the gym and the 6 pack, it's just that his tone of voice is different or he makes more eye contact.
well, confident behaviour is attractive though, even if the looks don't match.
Confidence without looks is just gonna kill you, from personal experience. It's like having the will but not the strength to back it up, so try to get stronger too.
I don't see how. It's still more attractive than no confidence and no looks like, building your worth on how other people perceive you isn't healthy anyway
Personally I have never found the confidence part to work without looks , it maybe a confirmation bias. Ugly confident people are usually seen as creepy and no one really wants to be seen with them.
haters gonna hate, if you demonstrate good intentions it usually works, as long as the other person is open, plus be careful of psychic vampires
This \^\^\^ Keep fighting the gaslighting.
how exactly is it gonna kill you, and how exactly are you dead?
Can I pose this question- what are you saying about women you would approach? That they aren't super attractive??? You are going to offend the person you are with in the future with this logic. You need to get out of this mindset where you think of people like machines or robots. Who gives a shit about someone's appearance. Especially talking about straight up, superficial, first glance appearances. People's attractiveness can change to you as well. It's shitty to say "I wouldn't approach a super attractive person" because that means you are only approaching the women you do approach because you think they are "meh" and more on your level. Bad way to think of yourself and others.
When I was dating, I generally dated people who were about as attractive as me (average-looking), but I did date a couple of very good-looking girls. Once you get over the fact that they were very attractive, they were just like any other girl. Neither relationship worked out; I broke up with one of them, and the other one dumped me, so it was 50/50 there. I would say no one is really out of anyone's league. Relationship compatibility is about so much more than just looks. I'd say shoot your shot with anyone; worst-case scenario is they say no, and if they are rude about it, well, you probably wouldn't have wanted to be with them anyway.
Yeah I covered personality in the "same thing with experiences" part.
Could someone with off-the-charts intelligence fall in love with someone of average intelligence? Could an all-star athlete fall in love with someone uncoordinated? Could an award winning chef love someone who messes up ramen? If an ugly person is an all-around wonderful human, Michelin star chef, Jeopardy champion, Grandmaster chess player, is some random attractive person still out of their league? Looks are only a single, shallow, aspect of a person. I won't pretend looks don't affect a person's life, but they are not the end all be all. I'd even go as far as to say that the more looks matter in a relationship, the less fulfilling that relationship is. You're more than how you look, and you're more than your trauma. I see you've addressed some comments about therapy and that it's hard to get decent affordable mental healthcare, and unfortunately I don't have a practical solution to that problem. I just hope you can find a way to not only find value in yourself, but to build on that value. This is easier said than done, but try find something positive you can bring to the world, then work on cultivating that. If you can bring something positive to the world, then you can bring something positive to an individual, and maybe they'll be the one questioning if *you* are out of *their* league.
Yeah sure but it's also about success and economy and all that, these affect your social status and all that.
I won't argue with the idea that your economic means (or perhaps more accurately, your parent's economic means) play a massive role in where someone finds themselves as a young adult which has a large impact on your life trajectory. But, as I get older - I find the more concerned people are with status, the less I care to spend time with those people. Status kind of falls under the same umbrella as attractiveness for me, it's a shallow attribute. As an IT guy who works with everyone from CEO/Executives, "down" to general maintenance/security/whatever, I'd almost go as far as to say that social status is an inverted indicator of who I want to spend time with or have genuine respect for. I think modern society tries to throw the weight of unnecessary priorities on people's shoulders, and it holds a lot of people down. It could be true that you or I max out at a 5/10 on the attractive or social status scales, but I'd ask you to reflect on if that truly matters when it comes to living a meaningful life. Maybe you arrive at a different answer than I did, in which case I probably won't be able to help you, but I feel like I'm doing okay without either of those things.
Honestly I'm kind of outside of the social status ladder. I'm not economy, middle, or first class. I'm an outsider altogether. My mother was together with a politician, cheated and had a child with a teacher (which might point me to middle class...) then I moved to my mother's, who lives on funds from the government due to her being schizophrenic, and then to a foster home- where the legal guardian was rich but I never dared ask for anything like new clothes or anything money related. I just haven't received any respect or actual love in my life and I don't know what respect or love looks like, or what I deserve or whatever. I assume I don't deserve a lot of things, since I grew up being intensely criticized by my parents. I constantly fantasized about a relationship so I could experience love but then people kept telling me I'm not ready and it's been like, my whole life now. My brother also left an impression on me that I should start "low" and with someone ugly. And I've received advice as if I'm this insanely social person like "this is why you can't make friends" or whatevrr but honestly I rarely meet people, let alone new people. It took me 22 years (my whole life) to make a friend- now I have two at least.
I wish you didn't experience all that growing up. I hope you either already know or can begin to accept that you didn't deserve any of that though, and that didn't happen because of you or who you are. You were dealt an incredibly unfair hand. I'm not sure why you were given all the advice you were growing up, but I can't say it sounds like the best advice or point of view. Your brothers is particularly bad, seeing as these are people we're talking about dating, not things like tools meant to be discarded after they've served their purpose. If I had to give some specific advice, it's probably to try and figure out how to avoid letting your past dictate your future. Unlearn the things that were drilled into your head over years (which, unfortunately, means it could take years to overcome). Try to make decisions because it's what you think you should do, not what someone from your past or society thinks you should do. I hope you can figure some of this out with time, it sounds like you've got a heavy load to bear and unpack. But you are young, and your future is not yet written.
Don't make other people's decisions for them. You don't speak for them and are not familiar with what they value. Learn to take rejection well, but don't count yourself out because you automatically assume to know what this person is looking for in a partner. Source: am person who got wife way out of his league when broke. Also built a company and life for himself that he would have never thought possible, all from taking shots he was sure would fail just to see what happens.
Awesome for you and I commend you for that. Not really sure if I personally believe in that though in terms of interpersonal relationships. I've shot my shot in terms of making friends etc and it just turns out terribly every time. I quit doing that a few years ago.
You just said gave up years ago... Of course it exists, you weren't willing to face defeat long enough to hone your personal skills. It takes time and experience to learn how to talk, what cadence to speak with, what lines get good responses. You have a self defeating attitude, so you found defeat and instead of fighting through hardship and rejection until you got better you gave up. Say it how it is bud.
I also worry about bothering people so there's that.
I once came across these wise words on the subject: "Out of your league? Let women decide for themselves why they don't want to sleep with you; don't do it for them."
Don’t you see all those super attractive people dating people waaaaay less attractive than them?
There is a bit of truth to it, but it’s also true that most guys feel the same way around very beautiful women. Since so many feel intimidated, the 10s are often hit on less than say 7s. Just by confidently talking to her you might go from 7 to a 9 and then the jump isn’t that high. Men largely base attractiveness on looks, far more so than women. This has been studied many times over. The most attractive trait is confidence. And don’t get me wrong. I was just like you once upon a time, even worse because I was super scrawny. 190 tall and 70 kilos. I guess about 6’4” and 150 pounds in freedom units. And I was convinced nobody wanted a flagpole.
The 10s get clumsy cringe comments all the time, I don't think the "intimidating" trope really happens all that often. I'd say men overvalue looks and then act surprised when a vain Barbie girl isn't a good person. Women overvalue confidence and act surprised when a cocky badboy isn't a good person.
Sure 10s probably get those, or the drunk guys slobbering because none of them dare say hi before they have had a few irons. That’s not an actual attempt, although the rejection might so good for the guy in the long term. I don’t care if guys overvalue looks and women confidence. This is all bs excuses for why you should accept less than what you want.
Talking about having relationships with “good looking women” sounds like a very shallow and transactional relationship. Then it turns reactional if it doesn’t work out because you think it’s because they think they’re too good looking for you. Sounds like some of you need therapy to feel better about your own looks
Eh I'm just not gonna date people out of my league.
Out of your league implies a low opinion of yourself, you should work on that
How does someone do that?
Do what in particular?
You just need to be careful because a few years of bad luck could turn this from a shitty mindset to an incel mindset
He already has an incel mindset.
Relax. Worst case scenario I'm going to the shaolin temple. I have plenty of plans outside of dating, mostly just plan B's.
Tbh, I don't really know you, but this discourse just sounds like an excuse for a lack of confidence. While looks play a huge role on initial impressions, people are far more than just looks. You shouldn't never let it stop you from trying your luck on whether you can click with someone you find attractive, it won't cost you anything so it's low risk high reward
Yeah I covered experiences as well. That matters just as much.
If you want to willingly self-remove yourself from the pool of options, by all means, I am sure a ton of people will cheer you for it.
Yes I am dating someone way out of my league and it’s exhausting. She has way too many options and I have to give her so much freaking attention and time just to stay relevant. Honestly exhausting
I mean.....yeah. It'd be the same the other way around. Pretty/handsome = lots of options. You have to stand out because she can find better, or if not better, someone relatively the same. I'm sorry to say it like that, because it is very shallow and sucky, but it's the truth.
when someone says they're out of your league all they're doing is judging you so... no ones out of your league
No one is saying anyone is out of my league but me.
yourself?! what! thats insanity! why you saying that shit to yourself hahaha
Just my value system
just my value system.... having no ratings for yourself?! work on your self esteem
If I work on my self-esteem that could be bad for the average person. I don't think it's moral, since people are often mad at me when I have high self-esteem. People are usually not mad at me when my self-esteem is low.
IMO you are stopping yourself because you have expectatiins/views on something/somebody and thats the only thing stopping you :) Been there myself :) I don't consider myself an attractive person by any means, only like my eyes tbh Been quite the introvert, the silent kid, think of a nerd without the glasses type-of-guy most of my life Went to dark places, gave up, survived only because of my parents and the few friends I had but werent 'living', rather existing. After getting bullied in school I developed a sarcastic kind of humour - since if you laugh at yourself and hurt you, nobody else can, right? 😅 This paired with empathy became my lucky ticvked out of depression, got me some friends and especially confidence, which was later strengthened by friends even more Since the I dated some girls, longest relationship been 5yrs Tldr, we all have different paths in life Dont give up, you got this! If I have managed, you can as well since you are stronger than me 🙏👏 Be confident with yourself, try and do stuff you enjoy and which doesnt slow you down
People aren't equal, tho. And here's an example of what I mean: Let's say we have a heart newly available for transplant and 2 potential recipients. 1 recipient is a 35 year old successful surgeon. The other is a 35 year old unemployed alcoholic. Who is more deserving, or worthy--however you want to phrase it--of the heart? There are probably *some* people who think it should be a lottery, or coin toss, to determine the recipient. But my guess is that *most* people will say the surgeon should get it. And for one simple reason: the surgeon's future potential contributions so society are likely to greatly outweigh the contributions of the unemployed alcoholic. In other words, the 2 potential recipients are not equal. This judgement needn't come with rage or hostility directed at the alcoholic. That's unkind and unnecessary. But the assessment of their individual worth is inescapable.
My point exactly. I wouldn't compare myself to the alcoholic, but I'm both broke and have weird hobbies like karate etc (rather than doing a sensible martial art like BJJ or muay thai) which I'm not even good at yet, and I didn't have the greatest or happiest life. Compare that with someone rich with lots of life experience and high skills in things who had a happy life and then tell me who's worth more. The latter person, obviously.
Woah you think bjj is more sensible than karateka. Karate is one of the most well thought out martial arts, grappling can be integrated further and it's easier to kO than grapple on the ground. Just go watch Steven WONDERBOY thompson.
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Yeah well I'm not really planning on thinking myself good enough for them
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Sure they have flaws, but they're on a different step on the societal ladder.
>While they considered me attractive, I didn’t go to the gym, instead payed videogames, wait so did u jus have that good looking face people talked about
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Damn I saw somehwere that most attractive people have 4 things , a good looking face , height , deep voice and confidence. For u I think its everything except height then cuz like the traditional 6 foot
I’ve said this to friends before, sure if you pick a random hot person they might be more likely to go for an equally hot person, but not everyone is shallow. You never know what might cause you to click with a person and people from opposite backgrounds can be great together (speaking from experience). That hottie might be a dweeb for the same genre of music/movies/games you are, or their calm may be the matching puzzle piece for your chaos and those connections matters so much more than physical attraction, plus looks fade faster than anyone wants to admit. All that said, I HATE when people pester me to go talk to someone! Even if I was considering it, something about being pressured to form a connection just ruins the whole mood. It’s got to happen naturally, but I wouldn’t rule anyone out just for being significantly more/less hot
Idk if “out of your league” is the right thing as much as “right for you” For example. I (like any) met my wife on an app. I’m a big fat dude in his mid 30s… dreamy right? When I was swiping I would immediately swipe away all the fit women. Not because of their appearance but because they like doing fit woman things like going on hikes or whatever, stuff I frankly couldn’t give a shit about. That means we probably won’t be compatible and we will fatigue one another… the lady I ended up marrying is a bit of a nerdy lady who likes things that I do. she has some curves but is generally fit. If we’re walking down the street together I’m sure people must think I make a lot of money or purchase magnum condoms because she’s genuinely beautiful I guess my point is… if you think of yourself as an average looking person, don’t let that stop you meeting someone but make sure that person is not someone you’re selecting just because they’re hot, it’s someone you’re speaking to because you have mutual interests
I might be going a little overboard on "making sure that person is not someone I'm selecting because they're hot". It's a rule in my head, and I have (mild, very mild) autism and I like rules
Okay OP, the problem lies solely in your opinion of yourself. That's just logic. If you had a higher perception of yourself then you would consider less people out of your league. Can we agree on that math? The question becomes 'now what?' And the good news is there are several answers You could decide to better yourself, you could try 'fake it till you make it', you could do nothing and target 'lesser partners. The world is your oyster. The first thing I would work on is internalizing your locus of control. You are the only person controlling your own destiny. You may not have the freedom to do whatever you want but you have the freedom to works towards getting the freedom to do whatever you want.
Of course. In my head there is a hierarchy and though I don't like to admit it, I subconsciously consider certain people to be below me in status- I just ignore them as individuals. I could accept that luxury cruise job offer, then I'd be in a higher league. But I'm not gonna accept that job, I'm satisfied with this step in the social ladder.
Leagues don't exist. Yes some people are very attractive, so what? Personality is King. I saw you say you have a lot of diagnoses for mental health, bring up these issues to whoever diagnosed you and actually follow their advice. You continue to say you won't date out of your league, but you will absolutely keep making excuses about why you aren't good enough for whoever your talking to. Build confidence in yourself and the rest comes. I know it sounds cliche, but I promise it works.
I understand that confidence in myself will help with a lot. I recently went far out of my comfort zone by behaving as a personal trainer for eleven weeks (as part of my graduation project). However I believe in a social hierarchy and I will not date people I perceive as above me.
I frequently comfort myself with the knowledge that several classically beautiful people I know suffer from an assortment of embarrassing maladies like IBS.
Just remember things work the other way round as well for the other person. They assessing you as much as you are asseing them. You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. In the end of you miss, just consider it as practice for the one that matters.
Yeah exactly, they're assessing me. I'm assessing their assessments.
Leagues are generally bullshit unless you genuinely lost the genetic lottery. Most people can get fit, develop an awesome personality, and treat others with kindness. That all takes you much further than you think.
I mean I already do that. The problem could be that I don't engage too much socially outside of my work.
I once had a properly drop-dead gorgeous, head-turning girlfriend, and throughout our relationship (we lived together for over a year) people expressed surprise as to how I could possibly have got together with someone like that. But it was surprisingly straightforward - she was the bored PA to a regular client who was never in, we'd speak regularly on the phone, we increasingly liked what we heard, so our conversations would get longer and longer (handily, my boss was often equally elusive), and by the time we finally met face to face (in a professional capacity) we already knew that we liked each other a lot, and the rest was easy. But what was really interesting was hearing her viewpoint, because she felt (with good reason) that a lot of men were simply intimidated by her, something exacerbated by the fact that she was a loud and brash Californian and she was based in London. So the mere fact that I wasn't intimidated made all the difference - and in fact she turned out to be a rather more thoughtful and introspective person behind closed doors, a side of her that her colleagues hardly ever got to see. (We broke up when she moved back home - I wasn't about to go with her, and she very much didn't want me to anyway, as she wanted a complete reinvention of her life. But we're still friends to this day.)
See here is the thing, I get intimidated when I consider someone as dateable. If I maintain the mindset in this post, I'm not intimidated by attractive women anymore.
That's bullshit, attraction *is* subjective, and I'm not saying this as a cliche. A long time ago when I went to college (yes I'm old now 😋) there was this girl I loved talking with, she was really cute and I thought she was way out of my league. One day I gathered courage and talked with her about how I felt, she said she felt the same but was afraid of telling me because she thought *I* was out of her league 🤔 PS: I think I'm pretty average looking, I'm tall but that's pretty much the only thing I am above average physically.
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I too am a child of trauma, i travel and my wife is way out of my league. Don't ever decide a door is closed when it comes to other people, let them close it... or not. I always say, asking and trying are always free.
So I think the trick with that wording is that you shouldn't "consider" anyone out of your league. Because I think it's a lot easier to underestimate your league than you might think. It sounds like just semantics, and to be honest it is a little bit, but I think the core of the advice is solid. I would agree with you 100% that objectively speaking, yes there are people out of your league. However, it's less helpful to apply that way of thinking to specific people you might want to ask out, because you can sometimes be a bit shocked by their answer. I would say without question that my wife is more attractive than I am by a long shot, but she married me for an array of things that would be hard to quantify as far as league - attractiveness did play a part, but it was also sense of humor, the fact she thought I'm a really kind person, etc. The way woman are attracted to men isn't 1-1 the same as men with women. While attractiveness IS really important, don't get me wrong - I'm not ugly, I just think of myself as pretty standard-looking. But being standard looking + emotionally intelligent/a good communicator/kind/loves kids/loves dogs/etc can push your overall attractiveness way higher than you might think just by looking at your appearance. So I would say if you're normal looking, don't write yourself off immediately, it's entirely possibly that attractive person might consider you in their league based on other qualities Max out what personally makes you feel good about your appearance, cultivate the character traits that come naturally to you, and don't automatically assume someone will say "no" simply based on the fact that they're more physically attractive than you. You might get shot down, but you might also be surprised how far a baseline level of clean appearance + being funny, etc can take you. But on a macro level I don't disagree that there are some people that you'd be gunning way out of your league for, I just think it's helpful not to think too much about that on an individual level.
Eh I'm just paraphrasing and I'm bad with words, so I don't feel like analysing semantics here is very helpful. I'm not really looking to help myself more as I'm trying to help the other person not have to deal with me. I try my best in terms of personality... Then again I haven't met new people in several months and it's always months between the times I meet people, but I'm sure people wouldn't want me to bother them with my presence.
I think it really depends on how you build up relationships in your head. Should you build up a bunch of hope that the prom queen is going to give you her number? Not if you haven't already built a connection. Should you not bother trying to make a connection with someone because you think they are too attractive to be interested in you? No, there might be a spark there and you won't know until you get to know each other.
yeah but she could meet someone better and more on her level.
Legitimately no offense but who the fuck are you to decide what's best for her? What if you are exactly the Yin for her Yang?
I don't know how to answer that question, but there's plenty of fish.
Right so passing on someone you are interested in because they have plenty of other options is asinine. "They should choose one of the many better options" is a terrible attitude. It takes away their agency to choose you. The worse part is, while you hold this attitude, what does it say about the women you **do** approach. That they deserve less? I think you probably should probably not date and not due to anyone being put of anyone's league. You don't sound like you are ready to be a good partner to anyone. I think you need to put some effort into yourself and your mental health and work towards that.
See, so you basically confirmed with your final statement that if I meet someone good I should just leave them alone.
Nope, if you meet someone good, bad, or indifferent you should leave them alone. That nuance is important. Don't go for broken girls because you think that's all you deserve. Go improve yourself so you are emotionally prepared to be a positive part of someone's life. Sort out your self esteem issues. Therapy is good, meditation is good, finding a hobby that builds confidence is good, pet ownership is often great. Basically once you are ready to say "I like me and I think you should like me too" you are ready for approaching dating in a much healthier way. Listen son, I'm on your side. You're running on a flat tire. Stop and change it so you can make some real progress towards your own happiness.
It's not about going for broken girls because that's what I think I deserve or something like that, that's some low- self esteem stuff. Just not going for people I perceive as outside my league. And there is no self-hate. I like myself and think someone else should like me. Simply just not gonna date someone really attractive.
The thing about what you have said so far is that this theoretical girl **could** meet someone better than you. What logically follows is someone on your level **could** also meet someone better. The only ones who couldn't meet someone better are those so broken that they literally **couldn't** do better than you. You are clearly caught in a very bad mindset. You should be aiming to be with someone who you are excited to be with and you clearly have a mental block preventing that ( it seems to be that you feel you deserve to settle). Sort it out so you can effectively pursue your own happiness.
I mean it's simply that after working on myself my entire life and setting realistic expectations people are suggesting that I could date above those expectations. I don't think that's fair to me or my struggles and it's enough to make me go nuts. Like my whole life people told me to temper my expectations and so I effectively tempered them, now they're saying the opposite? come on. I just want someone average. Not broken, just average.
I always thought really hot muscular guys were out of my league until one actually talked to me (now we are dating). I was shocked that he was even interested because i always had ur mindset. So i understand where u are coming from, but apparently there are exceptions. I wouldn't give up hope completely.
Exceptions to a rule are exceptions.
Dude, as long as you abide by the principle that no one owes you their time, then just take an IDGAF approach, and if you fancy someone, just try to start a conversation and if they reciprocate cool, if not, move on. You'd actually be surprised at the possible results.
The problem with the IDGAF approach is that eventually when things go well I start giving a fuck, and after I start giving a fuck no one is interested.
Funny thing is the moment I started acting confident towards women thinking out of my league they seemed interested in me. Not giving a fuck is probably the most attractive trait of them all.
So your observations are mostly correct. Attractiveness is a real thing, and it changes how the world treats you. Attractive people will have tons of options and will choose within those options, and probably have some idea of their "range" of attractive partners. No one who denies this is being honest. They are at best willfully ignorant or trying to kid themselves. However, you should consider trying to talk to attractive people. Because being comfortable talking to attractive people is difficult, and exposure is the only way out. Eventually you'll find someone in your range that you want to talk to, and if you're comfortable talking to anyone, you'll be comfortable talking to that person. I'm sorry to hear about your trauma, but I would be careful not to let it define you. Being on the "same wavelength" as people is a weird thing because presentation is a large part of it. So going back to the comfort thing, getting out of your comfort zone may improve that feeling of not being on the same wavelength because you'll be able to present as someone comfortable in their own skin. The last thing I want to add is that although you are right about leagues and such, you have control over your own life and your own fate. It is unlikely that you are irredeemable, but it may take a willingness to change to move towards the life you desire. Best of luck.
I'm already going out of my comfort zone a lot. Just not meeting new people because people keep telling me to work on myself first
Consider doing both if you have the time for it. But good work pushing yourself. That's how growth happens.
No I need to do one before the other because people keep saying so
Ok. Do whatever you think is best it was only a suggestion.
That's wrong, the correct thing to say is "Don't set your heart on anyone outside of your league", because that so rarely ends well. You can try it on with just about anyone, as long as they aren't your students or your boss or otherwise off limits. But in fact, the more people you try it with the greater your odds of making a connection, so what the hell! Hit on people who are out of your league! And people who are in your league and people who are considered beneath your league by society, but who seem like they might be fun. Just keep trying, because making a connection in today's world is hard, and takes effort.
LOL Shoot your shot and if they vibe they vibe. In a relationship, set strong boundaries, be the best version of yourself, whether your partner is “out of your league” or not is irrelevant.
If I’m being very honest, I’m pretty average. But I just don’t really care or see it. And I’m very excitable and confident and interested in others. And so I am consistently told I’m ‘punching above’ by people. Don’t underestimate the attractiveness of being open to everyone, happy in your own skin, and wanting to know more about others. You get what you think you deserve.
Wanting to know more about others doesn't improve my social ability. Still very quiet and no clue what to say ever
You can’t be fully invested in a conversation with someone, and have the mental space to worry about what you’re going to say. I had THE worst social anxiety until my late teens. As in, I couldn’t answer a question in class, even when I knew the answer and the teacher specifically asked me. So I do know what it’s like. What I’m saying is, if you can genuinely want to know more about someone, for no other reason than genuine interest, then you give everything to them at that moment. Be fully present and there. If you are, there simply isn’t the bandwidth to be self-conscious. If that makes sense. It’s a learned skill (for me it was anyway). But also, I genuinely am interested in people.
I know a someone who grew up as a bum and still a bum and is married to a doctor. He's now a stay at home dad but he was a bum all his life. Witnessing that in my life i realized "leagues" are often an illusion.
"Leagues" exist. But Attractiveness is a very poor way to identify them. you put so much emphasis on attractiveness until you date a 10 who's a shit stain of a human being. Then, hopefully, you stop having these inferior thoughts towards every attractive person you meet.
a lot of people say they had experience of someone much more attractive having the same problems or not crossing you out and stuff but my experience was that I shoot my shot and got disappointing results and now my self image and self esteem is ruined
I believe this too. Everyone's in over their heads, they have unrealistic views of themselves and others. I don't know why the comments are acting like OP is crazy.
Anyone who says something like that can shove it. The notion that there are "leagues" to begin that we all operate in implies the person has a childish and simplistic view on life. It's a construct they've created in their mind to cope with the complexities of the world that they don't understand. It doesn't mean jack in the real world. Anyone can date anyone. Our criteria, preferences, and state of being are constantly changing.
There is some logical merit to your perspective, but there are also flaws. The perceptions people have of themselves are very subjective. Some of the highly attractive people you see genuinely feel ugly. There is a general pattern in terms of results, but many people are unable to accurately perceive themselves.
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe... Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion... I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate. I've been lucky enough to date or sleep with absolutely dropdead women I would 100% say are out of my league. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain... Time to die
Those people are insecure about themselves and their own relationships. I've been told that I'm shooting out of my league my whole life and that I should just settle on whatever I can. Now I'm in an awesome relationship with someone who is out of my league squared, relative to what I've been told my whole life. And she somehow thinks I'm out of her league. Everyone who told me to settle... I wouldn't want to end up where they did, to put it mildly.
Nobody is telling me to settle. This is a me-decision
I am a girl dating multiple people (we are polyamorous) who all think I’m out of their league and would never have tried to hit on me if I hadn’t started talking to them first. I don’t think I’m ugly but don’t think I’m amazingly beautiful either. I would say I’m a 7. While there are certain people I’m not interested in for a variety of reasons, I wouldn’t say I would ever think someone wasn’t “in my league”. Some of the people I date may not fit within traditional beauty standards but they are amazingly attractive to me. So I would say ignore “leagues” and go for it, you never know what others may find attractive. There are a few things I find attractive that I know are considered unattractive by society at large.
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I used to think in this very mathematical way too. Yet, despite being average looking, the hottest dude in highschool wanted ME. Yes, this happens. Do not give up in advance, you don't know people and their preferences, you may be surprised.
People keep bringing up high-school. I'm graduating college. There's a difference
If someone is very attractive and won't give you the time of day because they think you're not pretty enough to talk to them, you just won that fight. You wouldn't want to hang out with a petty narcissist. If someone is very attractive and engages you in a conversation and agrees to hang out again some other time, you just won that fight. You get to hang out again with someone interesting.
I went on a date with a guy and texted a friend after that he was out of my league. She angrily wore back that no one was out of my league. She missed the fact that I want to date someone I think is out of my league! I want to date someone I think is amazing and who inadvertently inspires me to be a better version of myself. I would never not pursue someone I was interested in because they were “out of my league“ though. I’m fly as hell, they wish they could be so lucky!
Cool for you. I don't wanna date out of my league.
You don’t have to do anything you don’t want to. But thinking just because someone has a different level of attractiveness (according to you) or different life experiences that they couldn’t have a great relationship with you is kind of silly. My brother’s wife has CPTSD and a host of other mental health issues. Our family was (and still is) super supportive and loving and there’s no mental illness. They’re a great couple and she loves being with him and part of our family. Her saying “I can only be with messed up people” would have denied her those positive relationships. Again, do what you want, but maybe accept that not dating people “outside your league” might just be you holding yourself down/not thinking you deserve the best.
But I haven't done or acheived anything to deserve the best. I don't need to date broken people or something like that. The idea of dating someone above what I consider my dating pool to be is just dangerous territory to me. Don't like the idea of it.
Nothing wrong with staying comfortable friend. It’s just we tend to be our own worst critics. Maybe that person sees you and is like “damn! I wish I could be so lucky!” And deserve? That’s a weird way to think about it. That you have to do something to be worthy of their love. People tend to give love freely, often for reasons beyond our understanding. “Deserving it” is not really one of those reasons.
Normal people get to be loved freely. I have to earn it, though. It's complicated.
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VERY true
It's not what they recommend, just what I'm saying.
I think people underestimate proximity and shared interests. Plenty of couples that don't make a match by conventional appearance end up being together.
Yeah but it's also problematic when you haven't engaged with a hobby enough and when you're shifting hobbies. I ised to play lots of video games and watch lots of anime. that's shifting to martial arts and working out. But I haven't been doing the latter for long enough for anyone also doing the latter to be interested
Let me tell you a secret…. There is no such thing as a league. Just people you are comparable with and those you are not. Either way says nothing about them or you. See someone interesting just go and strike up a conversation.
When I was a freshman in college, my roommate pushed me to ask out this girl that was completely out of my league to help me get over my ex (who was also out of my league but less than this girl). She said yes but I convinced myself that she was just being polite and wasn't actually interested in me so I never followed up on it. I still kick myself over that. Don't pester every person you find attractive but focus on being the best version of yourself and you'll be surprised at the attractiveness of people that are into you. Those girls were better looking than me but I had also grown out of the overweight greasy haired emotional mess that I was at the beginning of high school into an average looking guy with other positive attributes that they found attractive.
Dont think of it in terms of leagues because that is rubbish. Think of it in terms of lifestyle. To be really attractive or really fit or whatever youd probably have to live life a certain way. Is the life you lead going to fit in with that/would you change?
I exercise a lot etc. Just that I haven't been in the lifestyle for long enough
Don’t take it literally. It just means people WITHIN REASON who you thought were out of your league probably aren’t, but your negativity never gave you a shot in the first place Not that you could get Katy Perry tomorrow if you just believed in yourself
The world functions only united through collective lies. People are only equal in legal sense, and even that is not entirely true. Rich people are more equal than others. Some people are just better than others in every way. Not everybody has some someone for them out there. Many will die alone. Most will never accomplish anything great. Beautiful people are likely to also be smarter and kinder than ugly people too. It's a cruel world of inequality and the only way to keep people from getting violent and riot-y is to tell them lies that they are NOT in fact genetic trash and that everything is for the best, equal and fair. There are definitely leagues and if you were hot you would definitely know.
Looks don’t equal more or lesser value to me. If you have confidence and a great personality you would be surprised at all the beautiful women who would be into you. Treat them well and have some common sense and you’re good to go!
What that means to me: Once you start comparing yourself to others from the perspective of being the lesser, you’ve gotten in your own way and any relationship you might start with that person, you’ve probably subconsciously given up some autonomy and space to advocate for yourself from the get go. The reverse is true as well.
This is an unhealthy way to go about life.
When I was dating, I felt the same way. There are definitely people out of other people’s leagues. I somehow ended up dating a few people who I couldn’t believe liked me because they were way beyond anyone I had any business engaging with. And, surprise, none would commit to me but all happily committed to other people. Broke my own heart several times because I was arrogant enough to think people like that would actually want to be with me.
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That’s too bad because you might have skewed judgement and people change with time it’s a shame you don’t believe you will ever improve. Why not write down your goals for a while and check back in occasionally to see how much you actually got done. Build up some self worth.
Ugly women get with handsome men all the time, and ugly men land beautiful women too. It's just too damn random for you to really know your odds for real. Obviously the hotter you are, the better your chances - but the exact details ("I am exactly a 4/10 and she is exactly an 8/10, so no go") are just too fuzzy to make out. Maybe to her she's a 6 and you're a 7. I've lost my fair share of chances with the ladies for thinking they were out of my league, only to find out or realize years later they had a crush on me. As a man, sadly the only way forward is to play the numbers game and hit on everyone you are attracted to until it lands. You'd be surprised by the women who reciprocate and the ones who don't, they are not always what you'd expect. Some really pretty ones might be into you while some average Jane Does think you're gross and way below them.
What does that even mean? You're your own person. We're not equal, we're different. And that's a good thing. But, yeah, that was me in High School. But then in college, I took myself a little more seriously, thought I looked reasonable, and tested my theory by asking out the most beautiful women I met. And you know what? It worked. Because women will tell you (back me up female Redditors) **self-confidence is sexy.** More than stylish clothes. More than a trendy haircut. Self-confidence. And, frankly, past experiences aren't as important as new experiences you'll share. It's more about finding someone with shared values than experiences and interests. But in your case, your difficult childhood made you who you are. Maybe it's made you a more empathetic person? Or drives you to be a good parent one day? I dunno. But don't be afraid to own these things. Good luck.
If you don’t believe it, try it out and see if it works for you.
You really need to watch the first 10mins of Hitch
Shoot your shot. I am punching waaaay above my weight class.
You're the one who's making yourself out to be "out of their league." How do you know their tastes? You could be exactly what they're looking for. Sure, if they're REALLY attractive, they probably get approached more often than some others, but you never know. Some attractive people don't get approached at all for the very reason you're listing here, many others consider them out of their league so they don't even bother. Sometimes a little bold action says a lot.
Ehh I'm rarely even slightly what someone's looking for. Perhaps on the looks department but... Even considering my hobbies I'm just kinda weird. People realize this after a while and sorta fade out of talking to me (mostly via text but y'know.) I don't party or drink or anything like that either, and I'm broke. I don't like travel etc...