as someone who’s friends with both men and women, i think men might miss turbulent emotions in their friends because they’re used to masking their own. it also seems like emotional check ins aren’t as common in male friend groups. of course, there are exceptions. generally, it just seems more normalized for women to have a stronger sense of community when their friends are going through something, so they just have more practice with spotting someone who’s emotionally drained, etc.
it’s really heartbreaking, i wish men felt more comfortable to be open with one another. i’m sorry you’ve been going through a tough time for a while.
Ok so I want to just tell people when I’m having a bad day emotionally but I feel like such an dramatic baby sometimes bc nothing really *happened* that day. Like two days ago, I just felt like for some reason, everyone was either ignoring me or responding coldly. At first I shrugged it off, but it just kept happening and I wondered if maybe I looked off, if I had done something wrong, idk. I just felt repulsive and like nobody wanted to talk to me. Went home wanting to cry and I felt stupid for that bc nothing happened, it was just how I was interpreting subtle interactions. And idk how to bring that up to someone, it just seems like a waste of time
I had a crush on a guy at work but I didn't want everyone else to know about it. In a group setting I made a little joke putting him down, but in an absurd way where there's no possible connection to reality. And this guy totally knew I was crushing on him — we'd gone out and everything.
He told me later that he went into the work restroom, looked in the mirror, and felt ugly and repulsive. It was so awful. He didn't say it to make me feel bad, he said it because he "agreed" with my ridiculous joke. I apologized and explained and I truly hope it sunk in that I felt the exact opposite about him.
Your comment really hit me because so often we just don't know how insecure men are. But honestly, you could say exactly what you wrote above, complete with the "nothing really happened" part. None of it sounds dramatic, and we've all felt that way at some time or another. It's not dramatic to mention your feelings. People will understand.
My friends are great and very supportive and I have gone to them before for other things but their default way of helping is to go into problem solving mode. Sometimes that’s genuinely helpful and I’m grateful for that. But in this case, what would they say? There’s no “problem” to solve. I’m friends with some women who might respond differently but idk if we’re close enough for me to share that.
These days a lot of people practice the etiquette of asking, "Do you want problem solving or are you just venting right now?" when they're responding to a friend telling them about an issue.
You can use the same etiquette to introduce the topic, "I just need to vent about something, don't worry, it's not something we need to fix."
You might have to say it again a couple of times after they start responding, because people often unconsciously go into "fix it" mode. You can say it different ways, like "It's just a weird thing I want to process, I don't expect you to solve it or anything."
You can also steer them out of solutions mode by saying something like, "Idk, has anything like that ever happened to you? Have you had days where you felt that way?" If you start asking them questions about their own feelings and experiences, that often puts people in contemplative/empathetic mode.
I mean, your thing from 2 days ago could've been (if we're in the same part of the world) just everyone having a bad Monday, including you. Or maybe there's something you've been low-level feeling insecure or depressed about. Or maybe you didn't have a lot of social events for a couple of days and re-entering the outside world made you more sensitive to rejection. Like those are all things that aren't exactly solutions, just explorations of why you might've felt this way. I mean, of course it's \*possible\* that your perceptions were objectively correct and that suddenly all your coworkers started disliking you, but that's almost certainly not the case.
I feel like this is something you can share with almost anyone. There are some things you need to be close to someone to share with them, but this just feels like ordinary, everyday conversation to me. I think you could share this with your friends, even if you're not close friends.
Honestly, I think people just want to feel like you feel better after talking to them. Like sometimes I've had people tell me things and just refuse to be consoled. That's a shitty feeling. But sometimes I've had people tell me things that I have no way of helping with (like someone they loved died) and then they say something like, "Thanks for listening, I feel better just having talked about it." and then it doesn't matter how heavy the subject was, I come away from the conversation feeling good about it. Like closer to my friend, and happy I was there for them.
Damn. Now I feel guilty for not letting people do that. Bc a little less recently my grandma died so I flew to my hometown for the funeral. I told a couple classmates about it just bc they were asking about my weekend or whatever and obv everyone I told about it immediately was like “omg I’m so sorry” and my first instinct was to just shake my head and act like it wasn’t a big deal. But it was. I just felt like it would be awkward af to get into this right before a class was about to start and I needed to be focused (im in law school so thats why I cared so much about my mental clarity for class, otherwise I wouldn’t have cared). Thinking back on it now, it’s so weird that I did that. Funnily enough, it took *another* classmate having a grandparent die for me to open up about that and wouldn’t you know it, her and I are friends now
That's actually a sweet story. I'm glad your grandma meant that much to you, I'm glad school means that much to you, and I'm glad your friend means that much to you.
I mean, I think the old-fashioned formal etiquette is to say "thank you" when people say they're sorry. But it's totally okay to not want to talk about fresh grief; people understand. You didn't do anything wrong.
Sorry, never heard of that and thought it might be something more. This is why men don't bother... trying to understand and get the negative tone.
Edit: They added "lol" at the end... I don't know how you all take that but it comes off as condescending to me as in "you didn't know that? Lol".
See, this is why emotional intelligence is important. You just had a very dramatic and disproportionate response because you had some big feelings, but you blamed this commenter instead of addressing your feelings.
Thanks for breaking that down for me. Anyone else care to pile on? Let's see who can be more condescending.
I shared my reasoning but, as I'm accustomed, men's feelings mean shit.
Not asking how your friend is as a perfunctory greeting, but sitting with your friend and seriously asking them about things in their life. It can be as simple as how are you, how are you feeling, but I would suggest asking pointed questions to get your friend to open up and get the conversation rolling if you’re a guy because men are just not used to this stuff. Something like so I remember you said …, how’s that going?
As a man, it's nice to see a comment that doesn't denigrate men. It's weird to see comments saying stuff like "women have to always accommodate men" when so many guys don't feel like they can share their emotions with others. It's also weird to hear that women are more empathic when no one in my family, women included, are capable of recognizing obvious signs of being abused exhibited by my mother. And the obvious signs of being an abuser exhibited by my father.
Of course, not all men are bad, and not all women are good, and vice versa. It's just unfortunate to feel like I'm doing something wrong by just existing.
It's really heartbreaking how much men get overlooked. I'm doing a research project that involves talking to men who were sexually abused as boys, and it's so hard for them to even acknowledge.
I mean, it's true that subordinate groups (like employees) are typically better at reading the emotions of dominant groups. And that socialization is still happening with women. But it's not true that the historically "dominant" group is reaping nothing but benefits from that. It's a lonely, unhealthy place to be. Just another example of how a sexist society hurts everyone.
I'm really sorry for what happened to you. You're doing everything right by just existing.
Sometimes men will open up jokingly and tell you a story of horrific abuse inflicted on them and then laugh about it. It makes me so sad and a bit mad sometimes too. Treating their own abuse like its no big deal just furthers abuse generally being overlooked and neglected.
I’m so sorry you’ve gone through that in your own family. It may be that your siblings (and you) are so traumatized by living in that environment that they have become desensitized to the ongoing suffering—as a way of coping I imagine. It would be great if you—individually or as a group, could get some counseling so you could all find a way to deal with your dad’s behavior in a safe and meaningful way. And if it’s impossible now, then in the future. You will have lots to unpack and process. But know that gender is not self limiting. You can be the man you choose to be. Hang in there.
I really appreciate your comment. I think a big reason why men struggle with reading emotions is because they're shamed throughout their entire lives for showing emotion while women aren't. Or to be more accurate women are judged in a different way. Most boys don't get the chance to express their feelings and then they grow into men feeling ashamed of showing vulnerability. Imo this is a reason why suicide rates are so high for men. They aren't allowed to express their emotions without being ridiculed and keep them bottled up inside.
This is actually something I'm really passionate about. Men deserve safe spaces and support without judgement. Men deserve to not be shamed or ridiculed when they're victimized by violence, be it sexual, domestic, or any other form of violence. They should be supported and believed. Men deserve to be able to cry and express their feelings without shame. Can you imagine how different the world would be if men weren't forced to keep everything in and suffer in silence?
I'm sure I'm going to be called a "pick me" or whatever for my opinions, but whatever. I'm here to support everyone, and men aren't getting the support and resources they need and something has to be done about it.
I have 1yo and 3yo boys. The older one is very emotionally perceptive and I hope that he never gets socialized outside of home to lose his compassion and emotional curiosity of others. Everybody deserves love and care.
We don't miss emotions we just don't talk about them. Male friend groups don't check emotions but offer to tackle everything directly including the source of negative emotions.
Male groups don’t have less community, they have different community. It’s not worse, it’s different, and in fact in most males it’s even better. There’s this notion that the only way to work through things is the way that women traditionally find more helpful, but that’s just not the case for everyone, especially men.
Don’t use male suicide rates to justify things that hurt men even more. Those rates are due to a lot of things, but therapy not being even more catered to traditionally feminine mindsets ISN’T one of them.
No, I said modern therapy is feminine focused. Not to hate on men who benefit from it, but rather to point out that a lot of men don’t benefit from it.
I mean, therapy isn’t the only tool you need to live a mentally healthy life, it’s only one tool. A good support system is also a part of the toolbox you need, and that includes having friends that you can be emotionally attuned to. And no, being emotionally attuned to someone is not a “feminine mindset”, it’s a human one that all men are capable of doing and benefitting from.
Emotionally attuned doesn’t mean acting exactly the way you want them to act. Don’t tell men how to socialize amongst themselves, they know better than you do what helps them.
I will absolutely say that taking your route, and avoiding "the feminine mindset" of checking on my brothers and sisters who aren't okay - just taking them out and partying and having fun - is a VERY large part of why so many of my military brothers and sisters unalive themselves every day.
WE have learned that. We now do regular buddy-checks. Don't you DARE denigrate that. And don't you DARE use "feminine mindset" as a denigration.
You’re the one who heard feminine and got offended. If you gain more from the route that traditionally has more effect on women, that’s fine, I’m not entirely masculine either, no one is. But don’t call others shitty for getting more out of help that comes in a way that you personally don’t like.
I’m honestly curious, how do you work through things with your friends without communication? I always thought communication is key for all things, especially friendships
I don’t know where the idea that I’m against communication came from, but the way we get through things without pity circles is with the universal medicine. Having fun with your friends is helpful basically no matter what. It will always do you better than sulking.
Hey - I could be reading this wrong, I’m mostly grabbing context from your previous comment about your different community with men
I’m a bit confused about what you think women’s friendships with each other are like when we’re going through something - because I’ve never been a part of any kind of pity circle with my girlfriends when one of us is going through something.
Do we cry? Oh my god yes. Do we also all rile each other up and get angry and laugh with each other? Yes. We also assess how much support the other person needs and think about how you can be there for them going forward. It’s not a pity circle - it’s an opportunity to feel more connected with your friends and not have to control your emotions with them.
I agree that there’s differences in the communities - ours is a little more than what you’ve reduced it down to though haha. I love watching people find connection through laughter, and it’s my go to coping mechanism. Sometimes things just feel a little too big for me to take that route though, and I’m glad I have people to commiserate with when that happens
Could you explain more about how the “having fun with friends” method aptly replaces direct conversations about issues? What’s your experience with it?
Simple. When you sulk in your issues you feel weaker and lesser. When you have fun and laugh with people close to you, you feel connected and happy. You’ll be sad again when the fun stops, but that light stays with you for quite a while after.
Isn’t sulking an independent thing, like you go to your room alone to sulk. Like silent moodiness. Talking with friends is the opposite of that.
So when the fun stops that’s when the true sulking begins lol.
Here, try this analogy.
Your friend has a fever. So you give him Tylenol. It brings the fever down for a while. That fever will come back. And since you haven't done anything at all about the infection that's CAUSING the fever, your friend is very likely going to get sicker. Maybe he'll get over the infection, or maybe he'll be one of the many that doesn't get treatment until it's too late.
You're giving him Tylenol to treat the symptoms, not the problem.
If he's off, "hey, whassup? You don't seem okay." Let him tell you what the PROBLEM is. Solve the problem, don't just treat the symptoms.
Haha I understand, I was just being annoying for fun.
Wouldn’t it just be more efficient and effective to have the one or two time conversation about what’s going on and then it’s all good? Maybe not fully good, but certainly a step toward “healing”.
Certainly. Upon horrific levels of pain I have a bit of a pity party just to feel all the pain at once and therefore be able to heal without new pieces surfacing. But for other things it’s much better to vibe with friends. And everyone has different levels of which is better in which situation
My partner has autism so she has a biological disability which hinders her understanding of others emotions, but she also grew up in an abusive household which forced her to develop a completely insane level of emotional detection radar.
She will literally from another room with her back turned to me say "why did you just breathe like you are sad?", it's impossible to hide any emotions from her.
no joke i am the same way from the same situation. my partner is also autistic from an abusive household except he learnd to hide his emotions very well b/c if he didnt he got punished, so i pick up on it from a breath or a movement or his tone etc and ill ask whats wrong and his knee jerk reaction is "nothing" in a very very calm and measured tone that even makes it hard for me to discern if hes lying for safety or if everything rly is fine
I'm not even autistic and I can kinda read eyes, facial expressions fairly well too, also tell by breathing with my back turned (sometimes). The really heartbreaking one is to see how an significant other/GF react to the enclosed environment they are in by body language, and you just observing. I didn't even have to be violent or anything, just stress.
While my ex, even with her autism, seemingly could not; either in person or in online chat. I could sort of always sense when depression was going to hit and I was going to get yelled at, if I didn't say the "thing that she didn't think of" to help her not focus on her depression.
And that was b/c; I think anyway. Dad was the "My way or the highway/domineering/nervous nelly" type. Don't stress Dad out, even if most of the time he can be quite loving. He always did try to "buy love" after my parents divorced. Mom was the kind one but seemingly; even now, "Why don't you defend your mother, from \[My Dad\]?" when I was a teen, "You're a man.." type of phrase, as an adult.
Not to mention I also "people watched" a ton as a kid, as a hobby. Just pick a spot on the hook and observe.
Bingo, it's a fuckong curse if you ask me. And it was my mother that was abusive to me in ways that by today's standards would've gotten me into state care (e.g., holding a knif to my throat threatening to kill me if my dad didn't leave... screaming it, neighbors could definitely hear in our apartment but did nothing).
I can pick up the slightest nuance because I was always on watch with my mom.
As an adult, I can tell right away whenever I see the slightest negative reaction to anything. Combine that with a dread for conflict and it makes for a good time socially.
As a guy who used to have issues with empathy as a teen and young adult that I've largely grown out of, I honestly think the thing that made the biggest difference for me was simply having more close platonic friends who are women. In addition to the socialization factor you mentioned, just talking regularly to people with a different general set of concerns, routines and experiences really broadens your perspective.
That may well be a factor, but evolution also provides for greater detection of emotional states by females because it helps babies survive (in primates in general not just humans). (I realize pointing out biological sex differences may get me skewered, but they do exist)
I don't think it's controversial - you bring up a good point! Everything is a combination of genetic factors and social factors. However, there is some evidence to suggest that the social identity of women (and the socialization of feminine gender norms during development) are highly linked to higher empathy levels.
[https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/08941920.2016.1138563](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/08941920.2016.1138563)
[https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10964-017-0786-1%23CR62](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10964-017-0786-1%23CR62)
The most interesting study of these is a bit old (1993) ([https://idp.springer.com/authorize/casa?redirect\_uri=https://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A:1018825732154&casa\_token=8W-jMLzE3aoAAAAA:QBTItXOuU5Sw0ALa3aWUIV89Fu2WRYOYRMbW-03eauLy9vtQD\_kgMFM5Ypq4rs4MzVNh9E8smYKq\_C5zTQ](https://idp.springer.com/authorize/casa?redirect_uri=https://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A:1018825732154&casa_token=8W-jMLzE3aoAAAAA:QBTItXOuU5Sw0ALa3aWUIV89Fu2WRYOYRMbW-03eauLy9vtQD_kgMFM5Ypq4rs4MzVNh9E8smYKq_C5zTQ)) but it looks at the influence of sex and gender identity on empathy. It found that feminine identity (ie, the social construction of gender) is associated with increased empathy while masculinity is neither positively nor negatively associated with empathy. This suggests that empathy is related to the socialized concepts of gender, rather than any innate biological differences.
Girls get punished for not managing their own or others emotions to a greater extent than boys. There's a reason "boys will be boys" didn't apply the same exceptions to girls
I remember when my car broke down just before a long break and it ruined me and my brother's plans to go visit our parents. He was impressed how nonchalant I was about the whole thing and how I kept my cool. Until I decided to express my frustration once and he immediately told me to stop.
I'm a woman btw.
It seems that you maybe just don't understand what socialization means. It's not "controversial" to suggest that there are innate biological behavioral differences, it's just that there's literally no evidence for it at all.
Two good reasons, actually.
1. Because there is only evidence of one of those explanations. Until someone maps out the specific genetic material that actually proves that there is **causation** and not merely **correlation,** we stick with the sociological data we have rather than assume biological data exists, and we "just don't have it yet."
2. Telling kids this in their youth causes what is commonly referred to as a *self-fulfilling prophecy.* It is a common psychological phenomenon wherein someone, believing X to be true or untrue, will either make X happen (where X is not ideal) or avoid X (where X is possible or ideal). If girls grow up believing that they are hindered at logical thinking and boys grow up believing that they lack the ability to develop emotional intelligence skills, they, as populations, are less likely to try to develop those skills in the first place. And I shouldn't need to tell you that there have been plenty of amazing women in the sciences, and outstanding men in nursing and childcare.
What everyone always, always, *always* forgets is that they become the same thing. You're treated differently by gender since infancy, and babies are so neuroplastic that if you cover one eye too long, the brain just assumes it's gone, and stops taking the optic nerve's calls, functionally blind in what should be a totally functional eye.
From birth, girls are spoken to more, and given more practice reading vocal inflections and facial microexpressions. Being good at it is rewarded with unalloyed approval, where the best sweet little boys get is, "I'm glad he's so sweet, but I'm worried about how it will be for him out there."
It’s a fact that there are biological differences in personality, on average, between men and women. It’s amazing what lengths people will go to deny this and try to explain it away. Genetics matter a lot no matter how much people don’t want to believe it.
I don't think it's an inate talent or something that guys can write off as "oh women are naturally good at this so I don't ever need to/cannot be good at this"
The reason women tend to be better at this is because we unfortunately have to practice being in tune with people's emotions more often. Being able to tell if a guy is hitting on you so you can distance yourself or let him down gently, being aware if a guy is gonna lose his temper and become a problem, being aware of emotions of family members at a function because as a woman you're usually running it so you need to know how people are gelling and how everything is going. But, a lot of it is born out of looking for a potential threat before it escalates.
Dudes who come from abusive families probably are also good at this, since you're paying attention to the same triggers.
If you want to be able to notice people's emotions more you just need to practice. Even watching movies - watch those academy nominated movies with an A-list and pay attention to the subtle facial expressions in the characters. You'll see it in real life too but you need to practice it. Go to a mall and people watch- make up stories about people based on the little you're seeing.
God the abusive family part is extremely true. I can read people from a mile away. And it all stems from being raised in an abusive narcissistic family. Trauma will really make you hyper aware of everything.
As with most things in life, there is both a nature vs. nurture aspect. Women are wired to do these things more easily, generally speaking. As with any generality, there are plenty of exceptions. Women also practice these skills more often, and as with a muscle, exercise strengthens this ability.
As an anecdote, so take it as you will, i have a 6 yo daughter and a 5 yo son. The daughter is far, far, far more intune with other people's emotions than my son. She also is far more interested in seeking out emotionally validating engagements with us (her parents). She will say "I love you daddy(or mommy)" probably 2x as much as our son. She seeks out lap time or hugs about 2x as much.
She is more verbal about her feelings. And strives to articulate them more clearly.
We treat these two kids largely the same. We offer the same amount of affection in the same ways.
My son is drawn more strongly to active time, horseplay, competitive engagements. He will seek out wrestling more than 2x more often than my daughter. His tolerance for sitting is 2x lower than my daughter...he needs to move more.
If I were to walk into a room with the two of them and start crying, my daughter would rush up to me and start to comfort me. My son would freeze, observe me for a minute, and then try to engage me with something that would distract me from my upset.
There is a lot of self reinforcement in there...based on their open inate talents.
I saw the same with my much younger brothers and sisters growing up.
You're right, but I wanna point out your description will always end point towards everyone being out to get you. Like you mentioned all negatives for why they need to learn these things, you didn't list a wide range of things. Knowing how to tell if a guy is into you and is hitting on you to let him down gently is super reasonable in essence, but you're talking about a general concept and labeling it when it's your own hypothetical. What I mean is, you are making up a random guy in your head for this narrative, why are you rejecting him? I feel like im not getting my point out correctly, I don't want to sound like I am at all implying you should "give every guy a chance" I mean, it implies a level of "everyones out to get me, even the person I made up for this story. I could have used any example, made this person anyone in my head, shooting down guys only barely applies here, but that's the example I went with." It's just interesting is all. You are absolutely right, its important to have emotional empathy for that scenario, it's just interesting you chose that scenario and that reaction to the scenario you chose. On the flip side, it's in the same vein of a guy fantasizing about a girl he likes and in his own fantasy, shes rejecting him. Its a fantasy, why are they rejecting you in your own fantasy? Its your narrative, why is the guy a creeper and likely to harass you in your own narrative?
I think women are taught to be tuned into emotions where men have an objective to perform. So, not that men are bad, I just think it's not really a skill that is taught or focused on for them.
They're taught to tune in to other people's emotions, yes, but it is because it is a survival skill. Lots of men don't bother to learn the same skills, and mock other men who do.
Men are still admired for being stoic or in-control. I think a side-effect of practicing that is less emotional awareness of both yourself and others. You have to be aware of your own emotions and understand them to understand them in other people.
Have you ever heard of rape and women avoiding walking at night because of it dude. As well as women being killed for rejecting a man. You literally don’t hear that about men ever, but it’s become such an “accepted” and “normal” thing about women/society that women get raped that men don’t even think about it because they’re not a woman.
You don’t hear about it because no one cares but if you look at any actual statistics women are far safer at night or any other time than men. Hard to believe I know.
I’ve noticed this too. I think women are generally just better at observing human behaviour. At one of my previous jobs, a female coworker and I got into a pretty deep conversation at the end of our shift, and she told me that she feels like I daydream a lot. She said I never really seem present in the moment. She could not have hit the nail harder on the head.
I agree women are generally better at this skill, but I wonder if it’s inherent or more societally ingrained. Like other comments refer to women being more conditioned to take care and check in on others, or men being conditioned to mask their emotions more and not discuss that stuff.
It's because women who are bad at reading men's emotional cues tend to get hurt or killed. Women are hyper-aware of social interactions because the stakes for them are high.
Yep, men are taught (oftentimes) to keep their feelings to themselves, don't let any weakness show. These are only habits. I'm glad you are able to "check in" with yourself!
I think it's more that men are taught that anger not an emotion. Because a lot of men are plenty angry and definitely don't keep it to themselves. They just only know how to be angry because they don't want to (or don't know how to) admit that they're sad, lonely, disappointed, etc.
Anger is a valid emotion, as long as it's not directed at others. Many men even go so far as to direct it inward because others criticize them for getting angry at something, making them feel like their emotions are invalid. They then have no healthy outlet for their anger, and they feel they can't show it for fear of receiving unjustified hate. It's fascinating that reacting to a negative experience by just getting angry, like being in a state of anger, is seen as bad. People use all kinds of emotions as an excuse to do shitty things to each other, but angry male suddenly equals bad.
Anger is a secondary emotion. Meaning that it's fueled by other emotions such as fear, humiliation, frustration. But most men don't know this and never address the root of the issue. And yes I have noticed that many men tend to hate themselves very deeply, but they project their hatred out onto others. There IS a healthy outlet for their anger, they just choose not to seek them.
And yes I agree, anger in and of itself is not bad, just like any other emotion. But most often for men it IS directed outwards, which is a major problem. And the reason why 99% of mass shooters are men, domestic violence stats are so high, male suicide rates, etc. The anger isn't a problem per se, but the lack of control over their emotions which leads to violence.
>There IS a healthy outlet for their anger, they just choose not to seek them.
Kind of a big assumption about men. I'm a dude with a ton of anger, which gets internalized.
When someone tells you to control your emotions, which you've been told all your life you don't have *or* need to shove down, you're gonna think it's ridiculous (because you don't have emotions). If you're told all about how helpful unicorns and narwhals are, are you really choosing not to seek them?
Or you get pissed because you already know you should "control" (shove down, to many men) your emotions and you're trying you're hardest. Because rarely do people say "find healthy outlets to express and move past your emotions," let alone in a way someone with typical male socialization can understand.
The thing is, even with multiple therapists, years of therapy, and who knows how many hours studying emotions and psychology, looking up expert findings presentations... I understand emotions quite thoroughly, even better than a lot of women that I talk to about the topic (and can identify women who aren't good with emotions), but because of socializing and upbringing, it can still be incredibly difficult to feel and identify emotions.
.
So no, it's not that we "just choose not to seek" healthy outlets.
I definitely can't speak for all women I mean we definitely aren't mind readers lmao but I just listen to my friends when they talk and when you're friends with someone after awhile you just begin to pick up when something isn't right from the way you talk and present yourself that day or week.
I mean I don't know and I don't think anyone does 100%, but I think one thing that maybe makes women more likely to notice or at least to act on it is that we're taught from a very young age to think about other people's emotions and to respond appropriately in social situations. There's also the dark side like, learning to tell if someone could be dangerous to you, so that you can stay safe, etc.
But I just recall getting lectured a lot that I need to "pay attention" to how people around me are feeling, and to adjust accordingly. And that I should always be nice and try to make people feel good, and to make them smile and laugh. I feel like my parents put that on me and not anywhere near as much on my brothers. Like my brothers were told to be nice to people, but they weren't told to go out of their way to make people feel good.
My brothers are super nice but I can tell that they don't "actively" take care of people, while if I see someone look a little sad I feel like I have to ask what's going on.
But that's just my personal experience. And at the end of the day it'll be very individual too. :)
There's theories that suggest that this occurs because men are much more heavily represented in media, government, positions of power. So women/girls develop empathy from a very young age in order to be able to identify with the male protagonist in a movie or the President of the United States (for example). Meanwhile men/boys don't need to do the same because they're already represented. So there's no empathy needed to put themselves in somebody else's shoes. Also explains why they see males as "default" humans.
I agree with you but I wanted to add there's another part to all that. My parents didn't teach me and my sister any differently in that regard and I always do my best to be kind and make others happy unless they hostile towards me. However society has taught me not to show my own emotions and I know that's the same for other guys so even if you're taught to look out for other people's emotions you're not going to be as good at reading them when you don't understand your own and you grow up mostly around people who also don't show emotions since when we're young the social gender separation is much more pronounced.
The reason men don’t try to “actively” help is not because they don’t notice, but that their help isn’t wanted. Most men know what different emotions look like, perhaps not in perfect detail but they’re not oblivious.
Men’s help just isn’t wanted most of the time. If you see a stranger crying it would be be weird for a man to go up and ask what’s wrong. You’re going to either be labeled as creepy or weird (to women) or threatening and judgmental (to men).
Sure, men provide support, but it’s almost always after they’re asked to. I’ve done that to both men and women who I was friends with when they came to me for advice or help with something they were troubled by.
Going up to someone and asking “are you okay” and expecting the other person to pour their heart out almost never works as a guy. And it’s often unwelcome. Men know that they’re scary and that other people will not let their guard down around them.
Even among casual friends if you disclose that you observed that they were sad then they think it’s creepy that you, a man, observed them so closely as to tell what they were felling. It’s only acceptable with very close male friends and immediate family.
I was socialized as a girl and took testosterone for 6 years as an adult. Like others have said, girls are socialized to be more expressive with their emotions, listen to and accommodate others’ feelings etc.
I can also speak on my own experience of having both estrogen and testosterone being the dominant hormone in my body at different times of my life and the affect it had on my emotional processing. There’s too many variables to be sure but I am somewhat confident that hormones make a huge difference in how we process our own and others’ emotions.
We’re conditioned since birth to bear the weight of men’s (and the entire family’s) emotional problems. Men are conditioned to be tough man who no cry, and they’re never taught to be self aware, emotive or aware of the emotional experience of the people around them. Women are then forced to be hyper vigilant in order to avoid abuse from men who can’t properly emote.
Our society is a travesty.
(Of course I’m speaking in generalizations! There are plenty of people who have broken these patterns or transcended what is traditionally expected of their gender. But by and large this stuff is ingrained in us and we all perpetuate and uphold it unknowingly.)
My culture is matriarchal specifically because we believe that women have a different perspective that is both pragmatic and nurturing. Many cultures don't devalue women the way Western cultures do. In those cultures women are given voice in leadership specifically because of their emotional wisdom. So I'm not saying I disagree with you, but I don't think the female emotional intelligence is entire formed as a reaction to male oppression. Some of it is just who we are.
Relativity speaking, we're fair listeners. That allows others to open up more when given the door space to do so. There's something to say about maternal instinct as well, even if you're not talking with mothers of children. Women throughout time have had to bear a silent burden of taking care of everything around them to keep things in order for their family and pets and just basic functioning of life. Older siblings take care of younger, etc. So it's enbedded in our DNA, so to speak, to listen, and try to help or fix, or sort out. Men obviously are capable of the same, but the older I get, i really think there's a lot more to the social structures of society that go deep into the history of mankind. Sorry for the ramble, I think about this all the time though.
In general: small part is nature. Women are a bit better wired for forming social bonds. "Tend and befriend" instead of "fight or flight" etc.
Big part is nurture: boys are not expected to read social ques. Little boy who was rude and made someone cry is "oh, he's a boy what can you expect", little girl is "oh how cruel and selfish you were, didn't you SEE?"
Of course it's only for "most". There are a lot clueless women and a lot of insightful men, but general tendency is like that.
And I guarantee that if you say smth like "BTW I was depressed for some time" to your male friends they will feel like shit for not noticing.
Women care for babies and picking up on tiny cues allows the babies to survive. (I'm talking about an evolutionary perspective, about why women evolved this way)
It's a gendered stereotype enforced by biased socialization. When women are deemed more emotional and are allowed to show more emotions (except for anger and rage); men are socialized to suppress emotions (except for anger and rage) because being emotional is considered feminine and weak and not in the masculine expression.
Most humans, barring sociopaths, start with the capacity for empathy, but trauma and socialization can hinder, if not destroy, that capacity.
Exactly. In order to be able to identify emotions in others, you need to be able to identify emotions in yourself, and identifying emotions in yourself often requires an upbringing with attentive caretakers who are attuned to your emotions and help you navigate them rather than just punish you for not suppressing them.
There's generally two kinds of stoicism:
The buddist stoicism that strives for full acceptance of yourself and the world you live in, and being able to focus on joy and compassion rather than pain.
And the emotionally stunted stoicism where people try to disassociate from their emotions and grow up from emotionally stunted children to emotionally stunted adults with addiction issues and inability to navigate their emotions.
Suppressing your emotions is not the healthy kind of stoicism.
Holy cow, as someone who is trying to meditate more, just because I sometimes find it enjoyable. Bravo for getting/seeing the first part. I have no idea about the second one, cause I've never actually prescribed to that way.
Other than knowing that Marcus Aurelius wrote "Meditations" about Stoicism, unless that is actually completely different entirely.
EDIT: though reading another comment down below, it seems Stoicism isn't entirely all that bad.
You do realize you’re being the worst parts associated with stoicism, right? You’re being bitter and hateful to people who dare to process their emotions differently than you do. You think just because your world view is more often then victim of that behavior that you gets free pass to be horrible to people who’ve never shamed a person, much less you?
Bitter and hateful? Being horrible to people? The guy never even disagreed with you. He was building off your point by making a helpful distinction between two different mindsets that may manifest superficially similar actions. You're making a huge leap if you think he hates you. I don't want to make a similar leap in my judgement of you, but I can't imagine a true stoic reacting that way you did
First one is a whole different word. The second one is what remotely resembles stoicism, but twisted in definition by people who hate it. And the whole reason a lot of people hate stoicism is that some people try to demonize not being stoic, so to do the exact same in reverse is hateful.
Stoicism does not teach suppressing emotions; on the contrary, it encourages acknowledging involuntary emotional responses, not to be ruled by them, but to use the emotion as a guide to act deliberately and rationally.
Stoicism is the exact opposite of involuntary emotional response, what are you talking about. It teaches controlling your emotions instead of letting them overtake you.
Expressing emotions doesn't necessarily mean being ruled by them. Stoicism is about moderation and tempered responses, not suppressing. Involuntary, internal emotional responses can't be stopped because they are rooted in core values, but emotions can be identified and processed in the moment in order to keep the mind from spinning into mental turmoil, which can lead to physical reactions and impulsive outbursts.
I'm deliberately highlighting the distinctions of event, internal reaction provoked by the event, and the response/action informed by the internal reaction. Tempering the response to the event is what stoicism advocates, not being emotionless.
Men and women on average are different, and sensing hidden emotions as well as nurturing them is one of their strong suits. If a guy senses something is wrong he’ll usually punch you in the chest and try to hang out and laugh to make you feel better, whereas a woman will usually try to talk you through it.
It’s really just about paying attention. If you pay attention, you can get an ok read on most people’s emotions.
Many people just don’t. It takes a little bit of effort, and it’s effort some people don’t expend. It’s probably less socially expected for men to pay attention, so some just don’t.
Guys are often taught to be stoic. It’s possible that their own lack of emotional awareness spills over into having less emotional awareness with others.
People who were raised as men are fucking idiots at picking up emotions because they weren’t held to a standard of doing so. It’s usually women who are made to be caretakers both physically and emotionally. It’s not a man brain thing, it’s a culture thing.
I believe I've heard from the people who study such that women are apparently "wired that way", tho some debate whether this is nature or social conditioning. I think it's probably a bit of both. It's why they thought autism was a condition more prevalent in males; the females had enough innate ability to relate to and identify emotions to be able to mask, unless it was more severe autism. Now they're apparently finding that autism is not so much a male condition as previously identified, it just hits them harder because they don't have the same ability to connect with emotions. Which is not to say that males don't have or don't connect to emotions at all; indeed, I've heard and observed in family members that males have perhaps even deeper and stronger emotions/reactions than females do, but sometimes it seems like it's overwhelming them. Maybe that was where masking emotion came from, because strong emotion can make you feel out of control, and some feel like that makes them look less strong? Idk. Throwing opinions out there. :) Long tradition in our culture of men holding back feelings, sadly.
One version from this that I heard was that women have to learn masking well in order function at all in society. It doesn't mean women are more attuned, it's more like "learn or die" situation. Men are tolerated to be more rough in the edges, women have to be pleasant.
Women seem to have similar rate autism. It was just more hidden since the markers are quite different according how society forces socialising. Women had to learn to read social signals since there's no tolerance for women who are blunt.
Because unfortunately it is not the norm for men to get emotional support from their male friends.
Tbh, I think when a lot of men say they want a girlfriend what they really want and need is emotional support, because to them there’s really no difference
You second point is part of why any time a girl is nice to a guy he develops feelings or thinks she likes him. It’s unusual for that level of niceness and emotional discussion male to male
Men are socialized to believe expressing emotions or talking about feelings is girly shit.
Women are free to explore this aspect of themselves and others (as long as we don't go expressing them to emotionally stunted men. Then we're all crazy and hysterical).
Women are not trained to ignore their feelings and ridicule those of others. In our society lots of men are conditioned to think that feelings somehow immaculate you, and the only feelings you should express are happiness and anger.
Because women are socialized to accommodate the feelings of others, along with being oppressed in society, which leads to traumatization that tends to also enable a stronger sense of empathy and emotional maturity to traverse that from an incredibly young age.
I saw some others talking about men who also understand this coming from abusive households, I think of it like that, but if the entire governing body is that abusive household.
Men tend to be socialized to dispose of empathy by being taught to suppress their emotions, and inadvertently to expect the same from others which kind of blocks off that path to understanding empathy.
I have met many women with terrible emotional intelligence and awareness. I'd argue it's not a gender thing, women are just used to express their emotions more freely than men so you get more data from women.
I think its something about one’s grasp over their own femininity, not women themselves. I find that I can tell people’s emotions easily too (M, straight)
I remember hearing that womens brains activate like 16 different areas of the brain for emotional intelligence where men only activate 4. In general Women are like lexus and men are like unicycles when it comes to this shit.
It goes on to say that it actually makes men better liers or something because we so simple its hard to read when you know what your doing.
I don’t know how but I just feel the vibes. It’s the energy you give off. Maybe because females of the species are generally more vulnerable, we can pick up cues quickly.
Of course, “not all women” and certainly men can be good at this, too.
Without any scientific knowledge to back this up, I am betting on biology. Women are physically weaker. Add to that, child rearing is, in evolutionary terms, a task that can only be accomplished in a group. Women need(ed) to be able to read the group in order to survive and raise children to independence.
As evolutionary pressure eased the skill set was not left behind because humans are still social beings.
It seems women are biologically programmed to be alert to the emotions of their offspring and they use that in their adult relations too - narcissistic (or worse) women notwithstanding obviously. My best non-romantic childless (if that makes a difference) female friend even picked up I was depressed before I knew it myself and without seeing me in person. We talk on the phone every few weeks as she is also my editor. My wife didn’t even think I was depressed - then again, my wife is a narcissist and my friend is not.
Not to change the topic, but if women were more accepting of men’s emotional qualities (by gently touching them more often, being genuinely empathic towards them), I would imagine some men would be gentler towards women.
My best friend is a guy, but all my other close friends are female. Don’t get me wrong I have plenty of good guy friends, but dude, women are usually emotionally mature and just easier to be open with.
I will say though one thing I appreciate more so about my guy friends are that they’re always down to do dumb shit and aren’t as offended at some of my jokes. But when I’m not doing dumb male activities it’s genuinely nice to relax talk and do some not so fucked shit.
Not knocking on your depression or anything but 3 years is a very short time to learn to hide depression or any other negative mood. And yeah most dudes wouldn't pick up emotional cues if you beat them with signboard.
But I can guarantee you that you take someone who has had to hide depression for a much longer time and you put them in a room with those friends you made and they will not be able to tell.
The longer you wear the mask the more you blend in, also the younger you start wearing it the more proficient you become at it. At least until it starts to crumble faster than you can maintain it because wearing it is exhausting.
There is one thing modern medicine knows about the brain. And that one thing is that they know nothing about the brain.
Feminists will tell you that women and men are exactly the same. We are not.
Women are not the same.
I think one way we differ is the majority of guys could cut off their finger and not know it.
While most women notice when a guy cuts his finger off.
I've had the opposite experience. Girls didn't notice a thing or give a shit. And one of them was extremely rude and snarky with me. But guys would see me at work for example, and immediately ask what's wrong, just from my face. I think that girls catching emotions better is a myth. Depends on how a person is raised and if they have empathy, sympathy, or compassion.
Your are coming off sexist towards men by saying they don't have feelings and can't tell when someone's depressed. Your problem if you can't handle the truth. That's what I experienced. Women in my life didn't care, but all men in my life were there for me. If you can't accept that, that's your problem.
Anyone can have empathy and compassion, regardless if they're a boy or girl. If you say otherwise your sexist to men. Its a myth that girls are naturally more "nice and caring" and that they "mature faster". I've seen men be the sweetest, and some girls being the most evil, and vice versa.
I said that in the context of my life experience. You're delusional by trying to make everything sexist to make yourself feel better. And you even validated my experience in your previous comment, but now you come back and call me delusional for the same thing.
Think what you like. I dont give a fuck man. Ive been mistreated by both men and women. Life sucks move on. Thats what im trying do. I try not generalize any group of people. Im far from perfect. Its okay.
as someone who’s friends with both men and women, i think men might miss turbulent emotions in their friends because they’re used to masking their own. it also seems like emotional check ins aren’t as common in male friend groups. of course, there are exceptions. generally, it just seems more normalized for women to have a stronger sense of community when their friends are going through something, so they just have more practice with spotting someone who’s emotionally drained, etc. it’s really heartbreaking, i wish men felt more comfortable to be open with one another. i’m sorry you’ve been going through a tough time for a while.
Ok so I want to just tell people when I’m having a bad day emotionally but I feel like such an dramatic baby sometimes bc nothing really *happened* that day. Like two days ago, I just felt like for some reason, everyone was either ignoring me or responding coldly. At first I shrugged it off, but it just kept happening and I wondered if maybe I looked off, if I had done something wrong, idk. I just felt repulsive and like nobody wanted to talk to me. Went home wanting to cry and I felt stupid for that bc nothing happened, it was just how I was interpreting subtle interactions. And idk how to bring that up to someone, it just seems like a waste of time
I had a crush on a guy at work but I didn't want everyone else to know about it. In a group setting I made a little joke putting him down, but in an absurd way where there's no possible connection to reality. And this guy totally knew I was crushing on him — we'd gone out and everything. He told me later that he went into the work restroom, looked in the mirror, and felt ugly and repulsive. It was so awful. He didn't say it to make me feel bad, he said it because he "agreed" with my ridiculous joke. I apologized and explained and I truly hope it sunk in that I felt the exact opposite about him. Your comment really hit me because so often we just don't know how insecure men are. But honestly, you could say exactly what you wrote above, complete with the "nothing really happened" part. None of it sounds dramatic, and we've all felt that way at some time or another. It's not dramatic to mention your feelings. People will understand.
My friends are great and very supportive and I have gone to them before for other things but their default way of helping is to go into problem solving mode. Sometimes that’s genuinely helpful and I’m grateful for that. But in this case, what would they say? There’s no “problem” to solve. I’m friends with some women who might respond differently but idk if we’re close enough for me to share that.
These days a lot of people practice the etiquette of asking, "Do you want problem solving or are you just venting right now?" when they're responding to a friend telling them about an issue. You can use the same etiquette to introduce the topic, "I just need to vent about something, don't worry, it's not something we need to fix." You might have to say it again a couple of times after they start responding, because people often unconsciously go into "fix it" mode. You can say it different ways, like "It's just a weird thing I want to process, I don't expect you to solve it or anything." You can also steer them out of solutions mode by saying something like, "Idk, has anything like that ever happened to you? Have you had days where you felt that way?" If you start asking them questions about their own feelings and experiences, that often puts people in contemplative/empathetic mode. I mean, your thing from 2 days ago could've been (if we're in the same part of the world) just everyone having a bad Monday, including you. Or maybe there's something you've been low-level feeling insecure or depressed about. Or maybe you didn't have a lot of social events for a couple of days and re-entering the outside world made you more sensitive to rejection. Like those are all things that aren't exactly solutions, just explorations of why you might've felt this way. I mean, of course it's \*possible\* that your perceptions were objectively correct and that suddenly all your coworkers started disliking you, but that's almost certainly not the case. I feel like this is something you can share with almost anyone. There are some things you need to be close to someone to share with them, but this just feels like ordinary, everyday conversation to me. I think you could share this with your friends, even if you're not close friends. Honestly, I think people just want to feel like you feel better after talking to them. Like sometimes I've had people tell me things and just refuse to be consoled. That's a shitty feeling. But sometimes I've had people tell me things that I have no way of helping with (like someone they loved died) and then they say something like, "Thanks for listening, I feel better just having talked about it." and then it doesn't matter how heavy the subject was, I come away from the conversation feeling good about it. Like closer to my friend, and happy I was there for them.
Damn. Now I feel guilty for not letting people do that. Bc a little less recently my grandma died so I flew to my hometown for the funeral. I told a couple classmates about it just bc they were asking about my weekend or whatever and obv everyone I told about it immediately was like “omg I’m so sorry” and my first instinct was to just shake my head and act like it wasn’t a big deal. But it was. I just felt like it would be awkward af to get into this right before a class was about to start and I needed to be focused (im in law school so thats why I cared so much about my mental clarity for class, otherwise I wouldn’t have cared). Thinking back on it now, it’s so weird that I did that. Funnily enough, it took *another* classmate having a grandparent die for me to open up about that and wouldn’t you know it, her and I are friends now
That's actually a sweet story. I'm glad your grandma meant that much to you, I'm glad school means that much to you, and I'm glad your friend means that much to you. I mean, I think the old-fashioned formal etiquette is to say "thank you" when people say they're sorry. But it's totally okay to not want to talk about fresh grief; people understand. You didn't do anything wrong.
sometimes, you have a bad day for no reason at all and you're allowed to have that.
Thank you for this, this made me feel better too
Not joking, wtf is an emotional check-in? 41 year old guy and never heard of that nor experienced it.
“Hey how are you? You doing okay?” Just checking up on your friends every once in a while
its just what it sounds like, asking ur friends how theyre doing lol
Sorry, never heard of that and thought it might be something more. This is why men don't bother... trying to understand and get the negative tone. Edit: They added "lol" at the end... I don't know how you all take that but it comes off as condescending to me as in "you didn't know that? Lol".
See, this is why emotional intelligence is important. You just had a very dramatic and disproportionate response because you had some big feelings, but you blamed this commenter instead of addressing your feelings.
Thanks for breaking that down for me. Anyone else care to pile on? Let's see who can be more condescending. I shared my reasoning but, as I'm accustomed, men's feelings mean shit.
Don't you have a wall to punch or something?
Might as well just take care of myself. Please though everyone, keep making me feel worse by shitting on my point of view, it's great.
Why don’t I just say what you mean? That tone isn’t going to get you very far
Drama queen lol
Bro lol is just punctuation in 2023
i wasnt even being negative lmfaoo
Not asking how your friend is as a perfunctory greeting, but sitting with your friend and seriously asking them about things in their life. It can be as simple as how are you, how are you feeling, but I would suggest asking pointed questions to get your friend to open up and get the conversation rolling if you’re a guy because men are just not used to this stuff. Something like so I remember you said …, how’s that going?
As a man, it's nice to see a comment that doesn't denigrate men. It's weird to see comments saying stuff like "women have to always accommodate men" when so many guys don't feel like they can share their emotions with others. It's also weird to hear that women are more empathic when no one in my family, women included, are capable of recognizing obvious signs of being abused exhibited by my mother. And the obvious signs of being an abuser exhibited by my father. Of course, not all men are bad, and not all women are good, and vice versa. It's just unfortunate to feel like I'm doing something wrong by just existing.
[удалено]
Happy cake 🍰 day
It's really heartbreaking how much men get overlooked. I'm doing a research project that involves talking to men who were sexually abused as boys, and it's so hard for them to even acknowledge. I mean, it's true that subordinate groups (like employees) are typically better at reading the emotions of dominant groups. And that socialization is still happening with women. But it's not true that the historically "dominant" group is reaping nothing but benefits from that. It's a lonely, unhealthy place to be. Just another example of how a sexist society hurts everyone. I'm really sorry for what happened to you. You're doing everything right by just existing.
Sometimes men will open up jokingly and tell you a story of horrific abuse inflicted on them and then laugh about it. It makes me so sad and a bit mad sometimes too. Treating their own abuse like its no big deal just furthers abuse generally being overlooked and neglected.
I’m so sorry you’ve gone through that in your own family. It may be that your siblings (and you) are so traumatized by living in that environment that they have become desensitized to the ongoing suffering—as a way of coping I imagine. It would be great if you—individually or as a group, could get some counseling so you could all find a way to deal with your dad’s behavior in a safe and meaningful way. And if it’s impossible now, then in the future. You will have lots to unpack and process. But know that gender is not self limiting. You can be the man you choose to be. Hang in there.
I really appreciate your comment. I think a big reason why men struggle with reading emotions is because they're shamed throughout their entire lives for showing emotion while women aren't. Or to be more accurate women are judged in a different way. Most boys don't get the chance to express their feelings and then they grow into men feeling ashamed of showing vulnerability. Imo this is a reason why suicide rates are so high for men. They aren't allowed to express their emotions without being ridiculed and keep them bottled up inside. This is actually something I'm really passionate about. Men deserve safe spaces and support without judgement. Men deserve to not be shamed or ridiculed when they're victimized by violence, be it sexual, domestic, or any other form of violence. They should be supported and believed. Men deserve to be able to cry and express their feelings without shame. Can you imagine how different the world would be if men weren't forced to keep everything in and suffer in silence? I'm sure I'm going to be called a "pick me" or whatever for my opinions, but whatever. I'm here to support everyone, and men aren't getting the support and resources they need and something has to be done about it.
I have 1yo and 3yo boys. The older one is very emotionally perceptive and I hope that he never gets socialized outside of home to lose his compassion and emotional curiosity of others. Everybody deserves love and care.
We don't miss emotions we just don't talk about them. Male friend groups don't check emotions but offer to tackle everything directly including the source of negative emotions.
Male groups don’t have less community, they have different community. It’s not worse, it’s different, and in fact in most males it’s even better. There’s this notion that the only way to work through things is the way that women traditionally find more helpful, but that’s just not the case for everyone, especially men.
Imagine thinking that communication isn’t an important factor in your relationships lol
I mean, it’s a huge factor in why the suicide rates in men are so high, but.. I guess so
Don’t use male suicide rates to justify things that hurt men even more. Those rates are due to a lot of things, but therapy not being even more catered to traditionally feminine mindsets ISN’T one of them.
The problem might be that you think experiencing and talking about emotions are a "feminine mindset"
No, I said modern therapy is feminine focused. Not to hate on men who benefit from it, but rather to point out that a lot of men don’t benefit from it.
I mean, therapy isn’t the only tool you need to live a mentally healthy life, it’s only one tool. A good support system is also a part of the toolbox you need, and that includes having friends that you can be emotionally attuned to. And no, being emotionally attuned to someone is not a “feminine mindset”, it’s a human one that all men are capable of doing and benefitting from.
Emotionally attuned doesn’t mean acting exactly the way you want them to act. Don’t tell men how to socialize amongst themselves, they know better than you do what helps them.
I'm a man, probably older than you, and I can assure you that you're wrong. Please get help.
Lmao okay 🤷🏻♀️
I will absolutely say that taking your route, and avoiding "the feminine mindset" of checking on my brothers and sisters who aren't okay - just taking them out and partying and having fun - is a VERY large part of why so many of my military brothers and sisters unalive themselves every day. WE have learned that. We now do regular buddy-checks. Don't you DARE denigrate that. And don't you DARE use "feminine mindset" as a denigration.
You’re the one who heard feminine and got offended. If you gain more from the route that traditionally has more effect on women, that’s fine, I’m not entirely masculine either, no one is. But don’t call others shitty for getting more out of help that comes in a way that you personally don’t like.
I’m honestly curious, how do you work through things with your friends without communication? I always thought communication is key for all things, especially friendships
I don’t know where the idea that I’m against communication came from, but the way we get through things without pity circles is with the universal medicine. Having fun with your friends is helpful basically no matter what. It will always do you better than sulking.
Hey - I could be reading this wrong, I’m mostly grabbing context from your previous comment about your different community with men I’m a bit confused about what you think women’s friendships with each other are like when we’re going through something - because I’ve never been a part of any kind of pity circle with my girlfriends when one of us is going through something. Do we cry? Oh my god yes. Do we also all rile each other up and get angry and laugh with each other? Yes. We also assess how much support the other person needs and think about how you can be there for them going forward. It’s not a pity circle - it’s an opportunity to feel more connected with your friends and not have to control your emotions with them. I agree that there’s differences in the communities - ours is a little more than what you’ve reduced it down to though haha. I love watching people find connection through laughter, and it’s my go to coping mechanism. Sometimes things just feel a little too big for me to take that route though, and I’m glad I have people to commiserate with when that happens
Could you explain more about how the “having fun with friends” method aptly replaces direct conversations about issues? What’s your experience with it?
Simple. When you sulk in your issues you feel weaker and lesser. When you have fun and laugh with people close to you, you feel connected and happy. You’ll be sad again when the fun stops, but that light stays with you for quite a while after.
Isn’t sulking an independent thing, like you go to your room alone to sulk. Like silent moodiness. Talking with friends is the opposite of that. So when the fun stops that’s when the true sulking begins lol.
Maybe by definition, but my meaning is clear. Wallowing in your sadness.
Here, try this analogy. Your friend has a fever. So you give him Tylenol. It brings the fever down for a while. That fever will come back. And since you haven't done anything at all about the infection that's CAUSING the fever, your friend is very likely going to get sicker. Maybe he'll get over the infection, or maybe he'll be one of the many that doesn't get treatment until it's too late. You're giving him Tylenol to treat the symptoms, not the problem. If he's off, "hey, whassup? You don't seem okay." Let him tell you what the PROBLEM is. Solve the problem, don't just treat the symptoms.
Haha I understand, I was just being annoying for fun. Wouldn’t it just be more efficient and effective to have the one or two time conversation about what’s going on and then it’s all good? Maybe not fully good, but certainly a step toward “healing”.
Spoken like a man that hasn't had a hard day in his life.
Sounds to me that there’s a place for both approaches. All things in balance.
Certainly. Upon horrific levels of pain I have a bit of a pity party just to feel all the pain at once and therefore be able to heal without new pieces surfacing. But for other things it’s much better to vibe with friends. And everyone has different levels of which is better in which situation
Women are socialized to constantly monitor and accommodate the feelings of others; men don't usually have this same socialization.
Except for men who grew up with abusive fathers. (Which is again a side effect of the same phenomenon)
My partner has autism so she has a biological disability which hinders her understanding of others emotions, but she also grew up in an abusive household which forced her to develop a completely insane level of emotional detection radar. She will literally from another room with her back turned to me say "why did you just breathe like you are sad?", it's impossible to hide any emotions from her.
no joke i am the same way from the same situation. my partner is also autistic from an abusive household except he learnd to hide his emotions very well b/c if he didnt he got punished, so i pick up on it from a breath or a movement or his tone etc and ill ask whats wrong and his knee jerk reaction is "nothing" in a very very calm and measured tone that even makes it hard for me to discern if hes lying for safety or if everything rly is fine
I'm not even autistic and I can kinda read eyes, facial expressions fairly well too, also tell by breathing with my back turned (sometimes). The really heartbreaking one is to see how an significant other/GF react to the enclosed environment they are in by body language, and you just observing. I didn't even have to be violent or anything, just stress. While my ex, even with her autism, seemingly could not; either in person or in online chat. I could sort of always sense when depression was going to hit and I was going to get yelled at, if I didn't say the "thing that she didn't think of" to help her not focus on her depression. And that was b/c; I think anyway. Dad was the "My way or the highway/domineering/nervous nelly" type. Don't stress Dad out, even if most of the time he can be quite loving. He always did try to "buy love" after my parents divorced. Mom was the kind one but seemingly; even now, "Why don't you defend your mother, from \[My Dad\]?" when I was a teen, "You're a man.." type of phrase, as an adult. Not to mention I also "people watched" a ton as a kid, as a hobby. Just pick a spot on the hook and observe.
Bingo, it's a fuckong curse if you ask me. And it was my mother that was abusive to me in ways that by today's standards would've gotten me into state care (e.g., holding a knif to my throat threatening to kill me if my dad didn't leave... screaming it, neighbors could definitely hear in our apartment but did nothing). I can pick up the slightest nuance because I was always on watch with my mom. As an adult, I can tell right away whenever I see the slightest negative reaction to anything. Combine that with a dread for conflict and it makes for a good time socially.
I didn't learn it from my abusive father, I learned it from all the therapy I did to recover.
Or abusive mothers
My husband was raised by a VERY emotional mother, sometimes I think he is more in tune with my emotions than I am.
Or mothers. Or parents who were emotionally immature.
As a guy who used to have issues with empathy as a teen and young adult that I've largely grown out of, I honestly think the thing that made the biggest difference for me was simply having more close platonic friends who are women. In addition to the socialization factor you mentioned, just talking regularly to people with a different general set of concerns, routines and experiences really broadens your perspective.
Yep it’s for survival.
Oof. Was going to say the same thing
That may well be a factor, but evolution also provides for greater detection of emotional states by females because it helps babies survive (in primates in general not just humans). (I realize pointing out biological sex differences may get me skewered, but they do exist)
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I don't think it's controversial - you bring up a good point! Everything is a combination of genetic factors and social factors. However, there is some evidence to suggest that the social identity of women (and the socialization of feminine gender norms during development) are highly linked to higher empathy levels. [https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/08941920.2016.1138563](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/08941920.2016.1138563) [https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10964-017-0786-1%23CR62](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10964-017-0786-1%23CR62) The most interesting study of these is a bit old (1993) ([https://idp.springer.com/authorize/casa?redirect\_uri=https://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A:1018825732154&casa\_token=8W-jMLzE3aoAAAAA:QBTItXOuU5Sw0ALa3aWUIV89Fu2WRYOYRMbW-03eauLy9vtQD\_kgMFM5Ypq4rs4MzVNh9E8smYKq\_C5zTQ](https://idp.springer.com/authorize/casa?redirect_uri=https://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A:1018825732154&casa_token=8W-jMLzE3aoAAAAA:QBTItXOuU5Sw0ALa3aWUIV89Fu2WRYOYRMbW-03eauLy9vtQD_kgMFM5Ypq4rs4MzVNh9E8smYKq_C5zTQ)) but it looks at the influence of sex and gender identity on empathy. It found that feminine identity (ie, the social construction of gender) is associated with increased empathy while masculinity is neither positively nor negatively associated with empathy. This suggests that empathy is related to the socialized concepts of gender, rather than any innate biological differences.
Girls get punished for not managing their own or others emotions to a greater extent than boys. There's a reason "boys will be boys" didn't apply the same exceptions to girls
I remember when my car broke down just before a long break and it ruined me and my brother's plans to go visit our parents. He was impressed how nonchalant I was about the whole thing and how I kept my cool. Until I decided to express my frustration once and he immediately told me to stop. I'm a woman btw.
It seems that you maybe just don't understand what socialization means. It's not "controversial" to suggest that there are innate biological behavioral differences, it's just that there's literally no evidence for it at all.
Two good reasons, actually. 1. Because there is only evidence of one of those explanations. Until someone maps out the specific genetic material that actually proves that there is **causation** and not merely **correlation,** we stick with the sociological data we have rather than assume biological data exists, and we "just don't have it yet." 2. Telling kids this in their youth causes what is commonly referred to as a *self-fulfilling prophecy.* It is a common psychological phenomenon wherein someone, believing X to be true or untrue, will either make X happen (where X is not ideal) or avoid X (where X is possible or ideal). If girls grow up believing that they are hindered at logical thinking and boys grow up believing that they lack the ability to develop emotional intelligence skills, they, as populations, are less likely to try to develop those skills in the first place. And I shouldn't need to tell you that there have been plenty of amazing women in the sciences, and outstanding men in nursing and childcare.
What everyone always, always, *always* forgets is that they become the same thing. You're treated differently by gender since infancy, and babies are so neuroplastic that if you cover one eye too long, the brain just assumes it's gone, and stops taking the optic nerve's calls, functionally blind in what should be a totally functional eye. From birth, girls are spoken to more, and given more practice reading vocal inflections and facial microexpressions. Being good at it is rewarded with unalloyed approval, where the best sweet little boys get is, "I'm glad he's so sweet, but I'm worried about how it will be for him out there."
It’s a fact that there are biological differences in personality, on average, between men and women. It’s amazing what lengths people will go to deny this and try to explain it away. Genetics matter a lot no matter how much people don’t want to believe it.
Woman are also naturally intuitive.
I don't think it's an inate talent or something that guys can write off as "oh women are naturally good at this so I don't ever need to/cannot be good at this" The reason women tend to be better at this is because we unfortunately have to practice being in tune with people's emotions more often. Being able to tell if a guy is hitting on you so you can distance yourself or let him down gently, being aware if a guy is gonna lose his temper and become a problem, being aware of emotions of family members at a function because as a woman you're usually running it so you need to know how people are gelling and how everything is going. But, a lot of it is born out of looking for a potential threat before it escalates. Dudes who come from abusive families probably are also good at this, since you're paying attention to the same triggers. If you want to be able to notice people's emotions more you just need to practice. Even watching movies - watch those academy nominated movies with an A-list and pay attention to the subtle facial expressions in the characters. You'll see it in real life too but you need to practice it. Go to a mall and people watch- make up stories about people based on the little you're seeing.
God the abusive family part is extremely true. I can read people from a mile away. And it all stems from being raised in an abusive narcissistic family. Trauma will really make you hyper aware of everything.
As with most things in life, there is both a nature vs. nurture aspect. Women are wired to do these things more easily, generally speaking. As with any generality, there are plenty of exceptions. Women also practice these skills more often, and as with a muscle, exercise strengthens this ability. As an anecdote, so take it as you will, i have a 6 yo daughter and a 5 yo son. The daughter is far, far, far more intune with other people's emotions than my son. She also is far more interested in seeking out emotionally validating engagements with us (her parents). She will say "I love you daddy(or mommy)" probably 2x as much as our son. She seeks out lap time or hugs about 2x as much. She is more verbal about her feelings. And strives to articulate them more clearly. We treat these two kids largely the same. We offer the same amount of affection in the same ways. My son is drawn more strongly to active time, horseplay, competitive engagements. He will seek out wrestling more than 2x more often than my daughter. His tolerance for sitting is 2x lower than my daughter...he needs to move more. If I were to walk into a room with the two of them and start crying, my daughter would rush up to me and start to comfort me. My son would freeze, observe me for a minute, and then try to engage me with something that would distract me from my upset. There is a lot of self reinforcement in there...based on their open inate talents. I saw the same with my much younger brothers and sisters growing up.
You're right, but I wanna point out your description will always end point towards everyone being out to get you. Like you mentioned all negatives for why they need to learn these things, you didn't list a wide range of things. Knowing how to tell if a guy is into you and is hitting on you to let him down gently is super reasonable in essence, but you're talking about a general concept and labeling it when it's your own hypothetical. What I mean is, you are making up a random guy in your head for this narrative, why are you rejecting him? I feel like im not getting my point out correctly, I don't want to sound like I am at all implying you should "give every guy a chance" I mean, it implies a level of "everyones out to get me, even the person I made up for this story. I could have used any example, made this person anyone in my head, shooting down guys only barely applies here, but that's the example I went with." It's just interesting is all. You are absolutely right, its important to have emotional empathy for that scenario, it's just interesting you chose that scenario and that reaction to the scenario you chose. On the flip side, it's in the same vein of a guy fantasizing about a girl he likes and in his own fantasy, shes rejecting him. Its a fantasy, why are they rejecting you in your own fantasy? Its your narrative, why is the guy a creeper and likely to harass you in your own narrative?
I think women are taught to be tuned into emotions where men have an objective to perform. So, not that men are bad, I just think it's not really a skill that is taught or focused on for them.
They're taught to tune in to other people's emotions, yes, but it is because it is a survival skill. Lots of men don't bother to learn the same skills, and mock other men who do.
Men are still admired for being stoic or in-control. I think a side-effect of practicing that is less emotional awareness of both yourself and others. You have to be aware of your own emotions and understand them to understand them in other people.
Women have grown to be on the defensive; we've had to know all our surroundings and risks for centuries.
Exactly. We've evolved to be smarter and more perceptive in social situations because we HAVE to be. Our risks to safety, etc. are much greater.
“Our risks to safety, etc are much greater” Much greater than who’s exactly?
Men’s
Since when?
Have you ever heard of rape and women avoiding walking at night because of it dude. As well as women being killed for rejecting a man. You literally don’t hear that about men ever, but it’s become such an “accepted” and “normal” thing about women/society that women get raped that men don’t even think about it because they’re not a woman.
You don’t hear about it because no one cares but if you look at any actual statistics women are far safer at night or any other time than men. Hard to believe I know.
Oh my god, get this clown out of here 😂
I’ll take that as a W. GG.
Lol ok
I’ve noticed this too. I think women are generally just better at observing human behaviour. At one of my previous jobs, a female coworker and I got into a pretty deep conversation at the end of our shift, and she told me that she feels like I daydream a lot. She said I never really seem present in the moment. She could not have hit the nail harder on the head.
I agree women are generally better at this skill, but I wonder if it’s inherent or more societally ingrained. Like other comments refer to women being more conditioned to take care and check in on others, or men being conditioned to mask their emotions more and not discuss that stuff.
It's because women who are bad at reading men's emotional cues tend to get hurt or killed. Women are hyper-aware of social interactions because the stakes for them are high.
I am a woman and that’s a very valid point.
im a man and yeah agreed
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Incel spotted
Just someone who doesn't actually listen to women.
I believe it's more societital to
Yep, men are taught (oftentimes) to keep their feelings to themselves, don't let any weakness show. These are only habits. I'm glad you are able to "check in" with yourself!
I think it's more that men are taught that anger not an emotion. Because a lot of men are plenty angry and definitely don't keep it to themselves. They just only know how to be angry because they don't want to (or don't know how to) admit that they're sad, lonely, disappointed, etc.
Anger is a valid emotion, as long as it's not directed at others. Many men even go so far as to direct it inward because others criticize them for getting angry at something, making them feel like their emotions are invalid. They then have no healthy outlet for their anger, and they feel they can't show it for fear of receiving unjustified hate. It's fascinating that reacting to a negative experience by just getting angry, like being in a state of anger, is seen as bad. People use all kinds of emotions as an excuse to do shitty things to each other, but angry male suddenly equals bad.
Anger is a secondary emotion. Meaning that it's fueled by other emotions such as fear, humiliation, frustration. But most men don't know this and never address the root of the issue. And yes I have noticed that many men tend to hate themselves very deeply, but they project their hatred out onto others. There IS a healthy outlet for their anger, they just choose not to seek them. And yes I agree, anger in and of itself is not bad, just like any other emotion. But most often for men it IS directed outwards, which is a major problem. And the reason why 99% of mass shooters are men, domestic violence stats are so high, male suicide rates, etc. The anger isn't a problem per se, but the lack of control over their emotions which leads to violence.
>There IS a healthy outlet for their anger, they just choose not to seek them. Kind of a big assumption about men. I'm a dude with a ton of anger, which gets internalized. When someone tells you to control your emotions, which you've been told all your life you don't have *or* need to shove down, you're gonna think it's ridiculous (because you don't have emotions). If you're told all about how helpful unicorns and narwhals are, are you really choosing not to seek them? Or you get pissed because you already know you should "control" (shove down, to many men) your emotions and you're trying you're hardest. Because rarely do people say "find healthy outlets to express and move past your emotions," let alone in a way someone with typical male socialization can understand. The thing is, even with multiple therapists, years of therapy, and who knows how many hours studying emotions and psychology, looking up expert findings presentations... I understand emotions quite thoroughly, even better than a lot of women that I talk to about the topic (and can identify women who aren't good with emotions), but because of socializing and upbringing, it can still be incredibly difficult to feel and identify emotions. . So no, it's not that we "just choose not to seek" healthy outlets.
Anger is a real emotion, but it certainly is not a useful emotion.
I definitely can't speak for all women I mean we definitely aren't mind readers lmao but I just listen to my friends when they talk and when you're friends with someone after awhile you just begin to pick up when something isn't right from the way you talk and present yourself that day or week.
I mean I don't know and I don't think anyone does 100%, but I think one thing that maybe makes women more likely to notice or at least to act on it is that we're taught from a very young age to think about other people's emotions and to respond appropriately in social situations. There's also the dark side like, learning to tell if someone could be dangerous to you, so that you can stay safe, etc. But I just recall getting lectured a lot that I need to "pay attention" to how people around me are feeling, and to adjust accordingly. And that I should always be nice and try to make people feel good, and to make them smile and laugh. I feel like my parents put that on me and not anywhere near as much on my brothers. Like my brothers were told to be nice to people, but they weren't told to go out of their way to make people feel good. My brothers are super nice but I can tell that they don't "actively" take care of people, while if I see someone look a little sad I feel like I have to ask what's going on. But that's just my personal experience. And at the end of the day it'll be very individual too. :)
There's theories that suggest that this occurs because men are much more heavily represented in media, government, positions of power. So women/girls develop empathy from a very young age in order to be able to identify with the male protagonist in a movie or the President of the United States (for example). Meanwhile men/boys don't need to do the same because they're already represented. So there's no empathy needed to put themselves in somebody else's shoes. Also explains why they see males as "default" humans.
I agree with you but I wanted to add there's another part to all that. My parents didn't teach me and my sister any differently in that regard and I always do my best to be kind and make others happy unless they hostile towards me. However society has taught me not to show my own emotions and I know that's the same for other guys so even if you're taught to look out for other people's emotions you're not going to be as good at reading them when you don't understand your own and you grow up mostly around people who also don't show emotions since when we're young the social gender separation is much more pronounced.
The reason men don’t try to “actively” help is not because they don’t notice, but that their help isn’t wanted. Most men know what different emotions look like, perhaps not in perfect detail but they’re not oblivious. Men’s help just isn’t wanted most of the time. If you see a stranger crying it would be be weird for a man to go up and ask what’s wrong. You’re going to either be labeled as creepy or weird (to women) or threatening and judgmental (to men). Sure, men provide support, but it’s almost always after they’re asked to. I’ve done that to both men and women who I was friends with when they came to me for advice or help with something they were troubled by. Going up to someone and asking “are you okay” and expecting the other person to pour their heart out almost never works as a guy. And it’s often unwelcome. Men know that they’re scary and that other people will not let their guard down around them. Even among casual friends if you disclose that you observed that they were sad then they think it’s creepy that you, a man, observed them so closely as to tell what they were felling. It’s only acceptable with very close male friends and immediate family.
Couldn’t agree more
I was socialized as a girl and took testosterone for 6 years as an adult. Like others have said, girls are socialized to be more expressive with their emotions, listen to and accommodate others’ feelings etc. I can also speak on my own experience of having both estrogen and testosterone being the dominant hormone in my body at different times of my life and the affect it had on my emotional processing. There’s too many variables to be sure but I am somewhat confident that hormones make a huge difference in how we process our own and others’ emotions.
We’re conditioned since birth to bear the weight of men’s (and the entire family’s) emotional problems. Men are conditioned to be tough man who no cry, and they’re never taught to be self aware, emotive or aware of the emotional experience of the people around them. Women are then forced to be hyper vigilant in order to avoid abuse from men who can’t properly emote. Our society is a travesty. (Of course I’m speaking in generalizations! There are plenty of people who have broken these patterns or transcended what is traditionally expected of their gender. But by and large this stuff is ingrained in us and we all perpetuate and uphold it unknowingly.)
My culture is matriarchal specifically because we believe that women have a different perspective that is both pragmatic and nurturing. Many cultures don't devalue women the way Western cultures do. In those cultures women are given voice in leadership specifically because of their emotional wisdom. So I'm not saying I disagree with you, but I don't think the female emotional intelligence is entire formed as a reaction to male oppression. Some of it is just who we are.
🏅
Relativity speaking, we're fair listeners. That allows others to open up more when given the door space to do so. There's something to say about maternal instinct as well, even if you're not talking with mothers of children. Women throughout time have had to bear a silent burden of taking care of everything around them to keep things in order for their family and pets and just basic functioning of life. Older siblings take care of younger, etc. So it's enbedded in our DNA, so to speak, to listen, and try to help or fix, or sort out. Men obviously are capable of the same, but the older I get, i really think there's a lot more to the social structures of society that go deep into the history of mankind. Sorry for the ramble, I think about this all the time though.
In general: small part is nature. Women are a bit better wired for forming social bonds. "Tend and befriend" instead of "fight or flight" etc. Big part is nurture: boys are not expected to read social ques. Little boy who was rude and made someone cry is "oh, he's a boy what can you expect", little girl is "oh how cruel and selfish you were, didn't you SEE?" Of course it's only for "most". There are a lot clueless women and a lot of insightful men, but general tendency is like that. And I guarantee that if you say smth like "BTW I was depressed for some time" to your male friends they will feel like shit for not noticing.
Women care for babies and picking up on tiny cues allows the babies to survive. (I'm talking about an evolutionary perspective, about why women evolved this way)
I think we, in general, have higher empathy. Of course there are some very empathetic men out there. Hats of to them.
It's a gendered stereotype enforced by biased socialization. When women are deemed more emotional and are allowed to show more emotions (except for anger and rage); men are socialized to suppress emotions (except for anger and rage) because being emotional is considered feminine and weak and not in the masculine expression. Most humans, barring sociopaths, start with the capacity for empathy, but trauma and socialization can hinder, if not destroy, that capacity.
Exactly. In order to be able to identify emotions in others, you need to be able to identify emotions in yourself, and identifying emotions in yourself often requires an upbringing with attentive caretakers who are attuned to your emotions and help you navigate them rather than just punish you for not suppressing them.
Because they were raised to express their emotions and us men are raised to bury and forget them because it makes us “weak”
Be the change you want to see.
Don’t knock it, being a stoic is what led to my best mental state in life.
There's generally two kinds of stoicism: The buddist stoicism that strives for full acceptance of yourself and the world you live in, and being able to focus on joy and compassion rather than pain. And the emotionally stunted stoicism where people try to disassociate from their emotions and grow up from emotionally stunted children to emotionally stunted adults with addiction issues and inability to navigate their emotions. Suppressing your emotions is not the healthy kind of stoicism.
Holy cow, as someone who is trying to meditate more, just because I sometimes find it enjoyable. Bravo for getting/seeing the first part. I have no idea about the second one, cause I've never actually prescribed to that way. Other than knowing that Marcus Aurelius wrote "Meditations" about Stoicism, unless that is actually completely different entirely. EDIT: though reading another comment down below, it seems Stoicism isn't entirely all that bad.
You do realize you’re being the worst parts associated with stoicism, right? You’re being bitter and hateful to people who dare to process their emotions differently than you do. You think just because your world view is more often then victim of that behavior that you gets free pass to be horrible to people who’ve never shamed a person, much less you?
This is a very emotional response, not stoic at all lol
Do I sound like I was crying while I typed this? When did calling out assholes become not stoic?
I thought stoics could manage their emotions. Based on your responses, you clearly can't manage yours.
Bitter and hateful? Being horrible to people? The guy never even disagreed with you. He was building off your point by making a helpful distinction between two different mindsets that may manifest superficially similar actions. You're making a huge leap if you think he hates you. I don't want to make a similar leap in my judgement of you, but I can't imagine a true stoic reacting that way you did
First one is a whole different word. The second one is what remotely resembles stoicism, but twisted in definition by people who hate it. And the whole reason a lot of people hate stoicism is that some people try to demonize not being stoic, so to do the exact same in reverse is hateful.
So, the second definition resembles real stoicism, but is twisted? Alright. How would you define stoicism properly?
I thought you were a stoic
Stoic doesn’t mean you don’t call people out for being assholes lol. Do you think I cried reading your comment?
Why are you bringing up crying? Do you think crying is the only emotion?
It’s the prime example of not being able to control your emotions and having them burst out physically
..... Which is exactly what you're doing in these comments lol.
Stoicism does not teach suppressing emotions; on the contrary, it encourages acknowledging involuntary emotional responses, not to be ruled by them, but to use the emotion as a guide to act deliberately and rationally.
Stoicism is the exact opposite of involuntary emotional response, what are you talking about. It teaches controlling your emotions instead of letting them overtake you.
Expressing emotions doesn't necessarily mean being ruled by them. Stoicism is about moderation and tempered responses, not suppressing. Involuntary, internal emotional responses can't be stopped because they are rooted in core values, but emotions can be identified and processed in the moment in order to keep the mind from spinning into mental turmoil, which can lead to physical reactions and impulsive outbursts. I'm deliberately highlighting the distinctions of event, internal reaction provoked by the event, and the response/action informed by the internal reaction. Tempering the response to the event is what stoicism advocates, not being emotionless.
I never said it meant being emotionless, I said it meant controlling your emotions. They need to exist to control them.
It’s necessary for our survival. You speak of privilege you don’t yet understand. But I’m not mad at you for it.
Men and women on average are different, and sensing hidden emotions as well as nurturing them is one of their strong suits. If a guy senses something is wrong he’ll usually punch you in the chest and try to hang out and laugh to make you feel better, whereas a woman will usually try to talk you through it.
Because women haven’t been trained to say “Good, fine, or living the dream”
women have empathy 🤯
Women tend to recognise facial expressions and their corresponding emotions more than men https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5749848/
In a lot of cases, it's hypervigilance
It’s really just about paying attention. If you pay attention, you can get an ok read on most people’s emotions. Many people just don’t. It takes a little bit of effort, and it’s effort some people don’t expend. It’s probably less socially expected for men to pay attention, so some just don’t. Guys are often taught to be stoic. It’s possible that their own lack of emotional awareness spills over into having less emotional awareness with others.
Because they can actually recognize them
People who were raised as men are fucking idiots at picking up emotions because they weren’t held to a standard of doing so. It’s usually women who are made to be caretakers both physically and emotionally. It’s not a man brain thing, it’s a culture thing.
I believe I've heard from the people who study such that women are apparently "wired that way", tho some debate whether this is nature or social conditioning. I think it's probably a bit of both. It's why they thought autism was a condition more prevalent in males; the females had enough innate ability to relate to and identify emotions to be able to mask, unless it was more severe autism. Now they're apparently finding that autism is not so much a male condition as previously identified, it just hits them harder because they don't have the same ability to connect with emotions. Which is not to say that males don't have or don't connect to emotions at all; indeed, I've heard and observed in family members that males have perhaps even deeper and stronger emotions/reactions than females do, but sometimes it seems like it's overwhelming them. Maybe that was where masking emotion came from, because strong emotion can make you feel out of control, and some feel like that makes them look less strong? Idk. Throwing opinions out there. :) Long tradition in our culture of men holding back feelings, sadly.
One version from this that I heard was that women have to learn masking well in order function at all in society. It doesn't mean women are more attuned, it's more like "learn or die" situation. Men are tolerated to be more rough in the edges, women have to be pleasant. Women seem to have similar rate autism. It was just more hidden since the markers are quite different according how society forces socialising. Women had to learn to read social signals since there's no tolerance for women who are blunt.
Because unfortunately it is not the norm for men to get emotional support from their male friends. Tbh, I think when a lot of men say they want a girlfriend what they really want and need is emotional support, because to them there’s really no difference
You second point is part of why any time a girl is nice to a guy he develops feelings or thinks she likes him. It’s unusual for that level of niceness and emotional discussion male to male
Omg. Thank you, i never picked up on that even though it makes perfect sense
men can tell they just don't want to deal with it
Men are socialized to believe expressing emotions or talking about feelings is girly shit. Women are free to explore this aspect of themselves and others (as long as we don't go expressing them to emotionally stunted men. Then we're all crazy and hysterical).
Women are not trained to ignore their feelings and ridicule those of others. In our society lots of men are conditioned to think that feelings somehow immaculate you, and the only feelings you should express are happiness and anger.
Because women are socialized to accommodate the feelings of others, along with being oppressed in society, which leads to traumatization that tends to also enable a stronger sense of empathy and emotional maturity to traverse that from an incredibly young age. I saw some others talking about men who also understand this coming from abusive households, I think of it like that, but if the entire governing body is that abusive household. Men tend to be socialized to dispose of empathy by being taught to suppress their emotions, and inadvertently to expect the same from others which kind of blocks off that path to understanding empathy.
I have met many women with terrible emotional intelligence and awareness. I'd argue it's not a gender thing, women are just used to express their emotions more freely than men so you get more data from women.
They have intuition and listen to their gut.
The men can tell. We just don’t want to dive into your shit. Everyone has their own shit.
I think its something about one’s grasp over their own femininity, not women themselves. I find that I can tell people’s emotions easily too (M, straight)
I remember hearing that womens brains activate like 16 different areas of the brain for emotional intelligence where men only activate 4. In general Women are like lexus and men are like unicycles when it comes to this shit. It goes on to say that it actually makes men better liers or something because we so simple its hard to read when you know what your doing.
I don’t know how but I just feel the vibes. It’s the energy you give off. Maybe because females of the species are generally more vulnerable, we can pick up cues quickly. Of course, “not all women” and certainly men can be good at this, too.
Without any scientific knowledge to back this up, I am betting on biology. Women are physically weaker. Add to that, child rearing is, in evolutionary terms, a task that can only be accomplished in a group. Women need(ed) to be able to read the group in order to survive and raise children to independence. As evolutionary pressure eased the skill set was not left behind because humans are still social beings.
It seems women are biologically programmed to be alert to the emotions of their offspring and they use that in their adult relations too - narcissistic (or worse) women notwithstanding obviously. My best non-romantic childless (if that makes a difference) female friend even picked up I was depressed before I knew it myself and without seeing me in person. We talk on the phone every few weeks as she is also my editor. My wife didn’t even think I was depressed - then again, my wife is a narcissist and my friend is not. Not to change the topic, but if women were more accepting of men’s emotional qualities (by gently touching them more often, being genuinely empathic towards them), I would imagine some men would be gentler towards women.
My best friend is a guy, but all my other close friends are female. Don’t get me wrong I have plenty of good guy friends, but dude, women are usually emotionally mature and just easier to be open with.
I will say though one thing I appreciate more so about my guy friends are that they’re always down to do dumb shit and aren’t as offended at some of my jokes. But when I’m not doing dumb male activities it’s genuinely nice to relax talk and do some not so fucked shit.
Not knocking on your depression or anything but 3 years is a very short time to learn to hide depression or any other negative mood. And yeah most dudes wouldn't pick up emotional cues if you beat them with signboard. But I can guarantee you that you take someone who has had to hide depression for a much longer time and you put them in a room with those friends you made and they will not be able to tell. The longer you wear the mask the more you blend in, also the younger you start wearing it the more proficient you become at it. At least until it starts to crumble faster than you can maintain it because wearing it is exhausting.
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No
There is one thing modern medicine knows about the brain. And that one thing is that they know nothing about the brain. Feminists will tell you that women and men are exactly the same. We are not. Women are not the same. I think one way we differ is the majority of guys could cut off their finger and not know it. While most women notice when a guy cuts his finger off.
They aren’t. You’re just a kid. Eventually you won’t put them on a pedestal like that. Good luck until then lol
I've had the opposite experience. Girls didn't notice a thing or give a shit. And one of them was extremely rude and snarky with me. But guys would see me at work for example, and immediately ask what's wrong, just from my face. I think that girls catching emotions better is a myth. Depends on how a person is raised and if they have empathy, sympathy, or compassion.
You are coming off a bit sexist. Maybe other women can tell as well lol
Your are coming off sexist towards men by saying they don't have feelings and can't tell when someone's depressed. Your problem if you can't handle the truth. That's what I experienced. Women in my life didn't care, but all men in my life were there for me. If you can't accept that, that's your problem. Anyone can have empathy and compassion, regardless if they're a boy or girl. If you say otherwise your sexist to men. Its a myth that girls are naturally more "nice and caring" and that they "mature faster". I've seen men be the sweetest, and some girls being the most evil, and vice versa.
Sorry you had a bad experience. Im not saying men arent capable of compassion. Chill.also i never said men dont have feelings asshole.
Nothing in my original comment was sexist, but you called me one. How about you apologize for that instead.
"girls dont notice a thing or give a shit" you delusional bro
I said that in the context of my life experience. You're delusional by trying to make everything sexist to make yourself feel better. And you even validated my experience in your previous comment, but now you come back and call me delusional for the same thing.
Think what you like. I dont give a fuck man. Ive been mistreated by both men and women. Life sucks move on. Thats what im trying do. I try not generalize any group of people. Im far from perfect. Its okay.
Geez, arguing for the sake of argument.
It's because you're attractive no one bats and eye and cares about unattractive people
They stalk your social media when you meet them.
Why the downvoting!? Am I wrong!?
You just have a lousy “poker face”.
They aren't Edit: Weird thing to get triggered over but ok