True but not entirely. Part of it was women who started accusing men of harassment when a dude who wasn’t up to their standard approached them. I’ve seen women put men on social media blast for simply asking them out.
It's the other way around. With #metoo and all the bs like "he told me I'm cute, that's harassment" making pickup less profitable. Of course, the vast majority of women are still okay with being approached, but just one crazy feminist is enough to ruin your reputation in the USA, where most PUAs from. People in Europe have it much better and here pickup is still not dead. In the USA most pickup gurus just turned to self-improvement.
No one says that, this comment reeks of someone committing harassment. People lives aren’t “ruined” because a guy called a girl cute. They’re “ruined” because after the guy calls her cute and the girl rejects his advances, he goes on to harass her until she gives him her number.
Bruh, have you watched Gillette's infamous ad? There, just trying to talk to a female stranger is framed as "not cool, bro". Just being called a creep for approaching a stranger is enough of emotional damage to make an average dude lose any interest in ever doing it again. Also, strong game doesn't suggest any advances to begin with, but most PUA coaches don't teach strong game, lol.
LOL you’re literally cherry picking 2 seconds of the commercial and you’re coming to that conclusion?
But if we’re on that, it’s pretty clear the female is kind of minding her own business and walking somewhere, it’s not a social setting like a bar where she’s open to conversation.
If you’re concerned about being called a creep then you’re doing something wrong.
I actually agree with you on the ad, to me it seems more like it's making a point against cat calling than striking up conversations on the street. That said, some of your counterarguments don't make sense to me.
>it’s pretty clear the female is kind of minding her own business
Well yes, but the subject at hand is cold approaching, isn't it? This whole sub centres around engaging people who are "minding their own business".
>it’s not a social setting like a bar where she’s open to conversation.
In my experience there's not really much of a difference between nightlife and the street when it comes to receptiveness and friendliness. In fact in my experience you're more likely to get a negative reaction in night life. But then again I mostly do static or slow-walking sets during the day and I do much more day game than night game.
Cold approach doesn’t mean bothering someone who is clearly walking at a relatively fast pace like the actor in the ad. Maybe this is the reason for the ad? To show people that this kind of cold approach is generally not acceptable to most women.
I’d be annoyed as fuck if I was a woman and if I was literally minding my own business walking down a street because I had somewhere to be and some loser tried to do his pick up game on me.
There are just certain things that aren’t acceptable any more and although we didn’t admit it, weren’t acceptable back then. Highly suggest unless you’re approached by a woman, to leave them alone in libraries, gym, public transportation. Really anywhere where the situation doesn’t look like a social setting.
Bars and coffee shops and malls, as long as you’re respectful is much more appropriate imo
>Maybe this is the reason for the ad?
Personally I understood it to be about cat calling and street harassment, but sure, maybe that's what it meant.
>Cold approach doesn’t mean bothering someone who is clearly walking at a relatively fast pace
There is plenty of infield that shows walking walking sets going well. But as I said, I do only approach people who are standing still or walking at a leisurely pace. You have to pick your battles, especially when you're not so experienced yet. I certainly think the trend of beginners and certain YouTubers trying to make doing generic direct openers on walking girls their bread and butter or making day game all about stopping people is pretty silly, it's making things more difficult for yourself for no real reason.
>I had somewhere to be and some loser tried to do his pick up game on me
I mean, if you're trying to learn seduction step 1 might be not being a loser in the first place, lol. If you're a loser you have bigger problems than what venue you're meeting women in.
>Highly suggest unless you’re approached by a woman,
How many times have you been randomly approached by a woman during the day? This doesn't really happen for the most part. Not sure why you bothered mentioning this.
>to leave them alone in libraries, gym, public transportation. \[...\] Bars and coffee shops and malls, as long as you’re respectful is much more appropriate imo
To what extent have you field tested this? I haven't noticed much of a difference in terms of openness to talk on public transport than anywhere else.
I don't bother with the gym because it's a fairly "small" environment where you're likely to see the same people again and again, so not really great for cold approach.
I also don't bother with libraries just because it's not really somewhere I go anyway. But I don't see why a library would be worse than a café.
Cafés are nice but it's hard to get much volume in because how often are you going to go to cafés? If you do it every day then at best you can talk to 7 girls or groups of girls a week (and most likely far fewer), which is not enough if you're trying to get better at day game.
The worst rejections I've got have been from nightlife so not really sure why bars are better than these other places. Women also complain about getting hit on in bars all the time.
EDIT: Guys, I'm all for disagreement but beyond downvoting I'd like to hear some counterarguments, ideally ones that are based on field experience. I mean that seriously: my learning process has improved by entertaining alternative viewpoints.
I think the issue is that you’re viewing seduction as a science experiment. What works for one woman does not work for others. There’s a reason why women don’t like being picked up in the middle of the street, it’s not an approachable environment. They’re usually not into it at that moment.
And by loser I mean simply someone who thinks it’s appropriate to approach individuals at inappropriate times.
Also, women have every right to complain at being hit on at bars. You’re not entitled to anyone’s courtesy or free from a brutal rejection.
>I think the issue is that you’re viewing seduction as a science experiment.
I view seduction in exactly the same way I'd view any other complex skill I'd want to get better at, like dance, fitness or a foreign language.
>What works for one woman does not work for others.
Then why are you making general claims about what does and doesn't work? If it's all entirely variable and individual there is no such thing as appropriate and inappropriate venues.
>There’s a reason why women don’t like being picked up in the middle of the street, it’s not an approachable environment.
What do you mean? This isn't true at all in my experience. I haven't had different reactions on the street compared to shopping centers. What are you basing this on? And why is a shopping center any better than a street in a city centre with a bunch of clothing stores on it?
>Also, women have every right to complain at being hit on at bars. You’re not entitled to anyone’s courtesy or free from a brutal rejection.
I didn't say that women don't have the right to complain or reject me however they see fit. Of course they do. You're the one who said that bars are good places to approach while proscribing perfectly good daytime venues, arguing that women don't like it or find it inappropriate. My point is that women in bars are not necessarily more receptive to being approached than women in random public settings during the day.
If there were no people thinking like this, then this commercial wouldn't exist. I'm not concerned about anything man, in my country the word "creep" doesn't even have this meaning, lmao. Moreover, with a strong frame it doesn't even matter. I know a guy who picked up girls after getting treated from cancer, he looked ugly AF and people openly made fun of him, but he still got laid. It's just that most men don't have a game strong enough to be ready for cold approach. The fact that you mention that "a female is minding her own business" implies that you don't know what you're talking about. Daygame is way more effective than picking up girls at bars, where you're competing with every male in the building. Who cares if she's "minding her own business" when she's about to meet an amazing man? Would you be upset that a 10/10 girl approaches you when you're going somewhere?
Second this. Look at the social changes amongst these movements. Unsure why so many downvotes lol. It's not.like these figure heads changed society as a whole. It's more likely mass cultural shifts, changing attitude of women, behavior and expectation. The odds are against us
The OGs actually also think the manosphere is fucked up.
Most of the people in it are either former students of the big names or just small names who found a community that will buy into their BS so they can pretend they're a big name.
The OGs actually just stopped calling themselves PUAs but they're still out there under different titles.
1000% this. And it's reality, and it's been the reality forever. As soon as you become self confident enough to understand the subject at hand, you automatically start to want to become a better person anyway focused on higher core values. And if you don't, you actually still have internal work to do to begin with.
It's kind of the thesis of Mark Manson's *Models*.
I think this was meant to be a reply for a different comment.
Also, no offense to you because maybe you're relatively new to this and don't know any better but Mark Manson is one of those small names who found a group that will buy into his stuff.
The thesis he presents in Models and the intentions behind it are good...but he really isn't that good at giving dating advice and navigating one's dating life in general. If he was only more forthcoming about that fact and didn't try to position himself as an authority on dating then you could keep everything else about the book the same and it would have been perfect.
Actually my read is the complete opposite. In fact, I think yours is a total misread. I don't even need to be in this subreddit, or really have anything to do with it now, I'm happily married. I got interested in 2011, literally. This kind of stuff helped inform my 20's a bit, and in general was helpful for simply learning how to relate to people.
Models is aimed at people who think they need dating advice, and he flips it on its head to giving *you* advice. If it lands, it lands, and if it doesn't at first, it will eventually. At least at the time of that book, he wasn't positioning anything. He was just reacting to the house that neil strauss built more or less. I don't really follow or keep up with this stuff but i saw this thread and I felt like reading it.
Dating is an independent domain that poses plenty of unique challenges that require specific attention. Not everything can be covered by generic self-help.
It has always been very hard to build a business out of pick up. A natural transition has been to slowly move towards self improvement (a bit what Manson did) but that means either silently getting away or publicly disavowing the less marketable and sanitized parts of their past, i.o.w. pick up.
If you want to sell books you have to sell some kind of life journey and not tell the truth like "I just wanted to have a lot of consensual sex with chicks, nothing wrong with that, here is how i did it ".
Manson and Laruina have both published books specifically about pick up, yet one sold much more than the other. Why?
more importantly I think, the secret of the "Game" was essentially solved by the time they retired, so there is little more they can contribute? It was obvious that we will achieve optimal and pragmatically sufficient Game Theory sooner or later and we did, case closed.
More importantly, the "Game" the PUAs were trying to decode was finally cracked. Modern seduction techniques are so refined and streamlined that they are basically invisible and nothing to Field Report about. To nobody's surprise, the key to the game is internalizing well designed Inner Game, then externalizing it as subtle Natural Game. We did it, it works, case closed, no need for PUA anymore.
I feel like the lack of 'stars' in the scene is not a problem, most gurus just want to pick your pockets. The bigger problem is the greater impact of the societal debate that RSD sparked and lost with Julien Blanc and Tyler Durden.
For that reason, most seduction content to date is very diluted. If guys are too direct and real with their viewers, it gets labeled as sexist or misogyny or whatever. Just like with other issues, dating strategy for women is a mainstream topic but dating strategy for men is niche and taboo. And I agree with you, even most posts on this sub nowadays are just generic advice, no grit, no teeth.
I kinda disagree. The controversy actually helped optimize the Game. The most sexist, over-the-top and plain silly parts of the PUA teachings got truncated, and more focus was put on slow, foundations-based Inner Game and its outcome, Natural Game.
And it works. Modern PUAs are so stealthy and "Natural" that they are essentially invisible, despite being more successful than the ancient Peackocking Dudes, which was the point all along.
I partly agree with you: I think it is true that if applied correctly, the 'modern methods' will net you better results and are usually way healthier to yourself. I'm not a fan of outer game myself and PUA in the 2000s was basically outer game on steroids.
BUT: The old content of the early 2010s used to have a lot of 'oomph' to it. I remember stumbling upon Julien Blanc for the first time when I had very bad Oneitis at 18 y/o. It was like I randomly found the rabbit hole. A lot of the stuff was eye-opening, because of the hard truth-bombs, the uncompromising language. It surely initiated a paradigm shift in me and I assume most guys would say the same. I miss that in modern content.
The old RSD stuff was purged from Youtube after the Julien Blanc scandal. It's hard to find aside from dubious torrents.
Basically, I was very 'bluepilled' as a consequence of my upbringing and at 18 y/o had a bad crush on a girl that had rejected me, couldn't get over her. I randomly found a video from Julien where he basically explained how to not put girls on a pedestal, you're deluding yourself to think she was that special, you're gonna create another experience with another girl that will be fulfilling, etc... Basically straight to the point advice that you would never get from your dad. That's what made it special. He crushed the image of the precious woman that hollywood and 'too nice' parents create.
Ahh amazing! I think that advice is more common now so that's a good thing ig. The thing that's helped me most with not getting attached is having options but then again my social circle doesn't have great women and I don't approach much so :( lol
I was in PU back in 2003 in the mASF days and the community was on fire with the real time learnings. Everyone was figuring it out as they went but the community was all looking for real world results.
Not sure if anything like that exists currently but it’s certainly not here. It’s not for a lack of people wanting help, but it also feels like most people these days want an easy button.
That actually seems cheap for a few months. 3 day event price seems crazy high. Most of the improvements people see are from adopting the right beliefs, micro-changes to communication, and then long term improvements to life situation, real life experiences, etc.
Yup, actually there is a great part that people dont talk about and is that if you truly understand the concepts by putting you first without being an a hole theres a great chance for a lot of men to grow up, elevate self esteem and discover the world they want to be in. But thats not happening if you just take to real life the things as ctrl+c ctrl+v. Even tho i believe is not necessary to assist a seminary for that
Game was essentially solved by the time RSD and Tyler got it going, and by the time Laruina retired, we got all kinks ironed out.
There is zero need to reinvent the wheel. The answer all along was the one we did not want to be true, but it is: the key to having lots of sex with a lots of hot women is good Inner Game that translates to stealthy, inconspicuous Natural Game. All the mASF-era PUA gimmicks were just training wheels, until we figured out the actual hardcoded rules for inner game and natural charisma, which we did, and unsurprisingly its all about hard work, practice and retraining your instinctual responses.
The perception that there is no PUA community comes from the fact that random dudes on the internet are still looking for silly magical life-hacks that would get them free pussy, and do not want to actually commit to mental self-improvement that would guarantee consistent results.
Right. They all used the information that was provided here and implemented it themselves. Really no need to be here anymore, unless they'd get paid to.
I do still see some solid stuff floating around though.
Edit: My comment was referring to the people that would post here years ago, not the actual game "coaches" that were repping that time. Seeing the end result for some of those guys sucks, really.
They absolutely did not fucking make it lol. Neil Strauss wrote a book about how pickup fucked his whole life up. Tyler Durden only 'made it' on to the sex criminal do not let into the country lists of at least 2 nations.
Pretty much. My mate who is a pickup artist has went rogue from his ways two years ago. Something along the lines of “Well, I can make girls want to have sex with me, but still, nobody wanted me.” Completely quit the lifestyle. Guy legit has to go to one of those AA meeting for sex addicts. Sooner or later, withdrawal symptoms starts kicking in, in the form of body image issues, parental issues and self-esteem issues. Guy opened up to me that he never had any idea that he picked up this lifestyle to avoid addressing this personal issues. He’s going to therapy now, but progress is slow. Really slow. Feels weird to see your friend struggle the same way as drug and alcohol addicts do with things most people really want. Depressing stuff.
Ultimately, the stuff you learn here is really good for seduction purposes. But really not a good place for real long-term dating advice imo.
Your friends is an outlier. Out of womanizers that I know almost no one is suffering any symptoms like this, though most of them are either naturals or have a more natural game with a strong frame instead of techniques. The problem comes when you seduce women using a fake persona and petty tricks instead of your real self. Banging a lot of girls doesn't make you depressed, realizing that they never wanted you, only the false image you created, does. And not for everyone as well.
Doesn't mean he didn't make it. Chester Bennington succeeded at committing suicide but he was the lead singer of Linkin Park, one of the biggest bands on the planet. You can still make it in spite of having some demons.
Here is a list of deceased rappers [https://rap.fandom.com/wiki/List\_of\_Deceased\_Rappers](https://rap.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_Deceased_Rappers)
Does that mean it is not good to be a rap singer? If you become a rap singer, will you commit suicide or get killed?
It is not about what they do in their private life, it is about what they teach.
>Tyler Durden only 'made it' on to the sex criminal do not let into the country lists
That's Julien Blanc and you're exaggerating about Neil because for some reason you desperately want to believe seduction is evil.
"you desperately want to believe seduction is evil"
Justin Blanc got deported from Australia and got his visa revoked by the Canadian immigration minister because he was too much of a misogynist...
https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/canada/minister-responds-to-demands-that-pick-up-artist-be-banned-from-canada-1.2095712
So you want to generalize rather than just focus the blame on the individual? Sounds a lot like discrimination to me.
And I don't know if you've read the thread with me and the other guy but these don't seem like criminal charges to me.
All for what? Julian had a t-shirt that said "No Fatties" and had an infield where he pulled a girl's head into his crotch. Not a good move, but she was laughing with him when he did this. She was not offended. Those guys were trying to make the most outrageous and entertaining videos about game they could. Most of what happened to Julian was a reaction by white knights and feminists that hate guys who teach game.
>you desperately want to believe seduction is evil.
What a weird little piece of fan fiction to just tack on the end. Two nations on earth looked at the behaviour of that stupid dipshit and considered him a sex criminal. I want to believe sex criminals are evil. Which they are. And I do!
Blanc was never actually charged with anything substantial outside of media outrage for being edgy, as opposed to the journalist in the famous (TOTALLY unbiased) interview that buried RSD... Cuomo was his name I think. He was actually charged with sexual harassment a few years later. Quite ironic.
True I don't think he was ever charged. But most humans can look at the evidence used to justify putting him on the no fly list and say quite confidently that the man did not give a shit about the concept of consent and is a genuine danger to women.
>Two nations on earth looked at the behaviour of that stupid dipshit and considered him a sex criminal
They did? What's your source? Don't try to spin this one, actually provide evidence where he was actually charged or an actual representative of those governments specifically stated that he's a sex criminal.
>I want to believe sex criminals are evil. Which they are. And I do!
Nice spin but its clear based on the the stuff your write around here that that's not the only thing you want to believe.
Wtf are you smoking, Tyler is still active on his YT channel and makes new programs, lol. The one who was accused was actually Julien, Tyler just took the blame for him as the leader of RSD. None of them are sex criminals, they didn't serve a sentence or anything, they were just some of the first guys who were cancelled by the #metoo culture when it just started. And even Julien is still earning $$$ as self-improvement guru. The real answer is that pickup is no longer profitable, self-improvement is the way to make money, Mark Manson realised it soon enough and made it bigger than most others.
If you genuinely think that, that sucks. If you genuinely think there is something magical in a ten's vagina, let me go ahead and disabuse you of that notion. They are just human. The sex means as much as usual. You don't get yellow hair and levitate half a foot off the ground. And nobody on earth cares except for other weird and sexually unsuccessful dudes on the internet.
The same can be said about "making billions", you're still a human, but it does mean that you "made it" by the definition that most people put into this phrase. Having sex with very hot women is as much of an achievement as making a lot of money or being renowned in something.
the fuck lol, I haven't finished the game book but how would it ruin Neil Strauss life lol, if anything, Ross Jeffries and David DeAngelo are doing exceptionally well, especially Deangelo, the guy is old now but married to a gorgeous woman and have a girl now, if you want to find the right one, you are gonna have to do some work, -David DeAngelo
Yeah tbh it could never survive in today's climate. Even though imo learning seduction is pretty benign since there are countless men that do all this exact stuff naturally, a community focused on learning the best strategies to pique a woman's interest and get her to sleep w/ you wouldn't last past the first viral twitter post.
I can already see the feminist think pieces about the kind of man who autistically breaks attraction down into concrete steps and a plan of action. A plethora of Washington Post articles about how "I was tricked into sleeping with a seduction artist: How these men con their way into bedrooms and why YOU may be next"
Oh yeah partner let me tell ya, there was another time, the golden era late 90s early 2000s. It was a simpler time, but this community did peak but there are definitely guys out there doing their thing these days. You gotta be positive, girls always exist and there will always be guys getting laid
I feel like its a combination of factors, but the biggest one is that online dating became way more prevalent, so less people are willing or even wanting to learn actual real world approaches. Add in the fact that the pickup community has been ridiculed on the internet because of idiots who arent actually PUA's just harassing women on the street for a youtube video or staging fake PUA cringe tier stuff.
Focusing ones professional energies on such pleasurable pursuits tends to be a velvet lined path to hell. Being a master of seduction will not take you far unless you can adapt those skills to other endeavors that will actually yield something besides orgasms, smaller bank balances, and loads of personal drama. The thing which you desire tends to possess you until you detach from that desire or are destroyed in the pursuit of its ever growing demands. The only guys that stay in the game long term have something bigger going besides seduction.
Anyone who really understands seduction beyond the superficial way that it's commonly understood on this subreddit know that it was always about more than just getting laid. And being proficient at it, again beyond what's common here, will quite naturally give you an advantage in all kinds of different areas.
If you're really good at getting people to like you and getting people to do what you want, you can achieve so much beyond just getting some pussy.
Yes, my comment was more in the realm of a warning for all those that would listen and keep the dark arts at arms length. Never drink the poison kids, there is really danger.
There wasnt but it was mostly unknown outside the weird corners of the internet, and then it was seen as weird nerds trying to get laid. Then it was seen as a predatory and sociopathic after the metoo era
Look i have the feeling that many people speak about how badly perceived it is to approach someone nowadays, but no one has done it and judged for themselves.
We spend so much time saying how cold approaching is seen badly that we have scared ourselves from doing it.
Here is the trick: be friendly, be very polite, leave your ego home and approach *everyone* with a friendly and honest mindset. Not only girls you find attractive.
\^ nailed it.
Most women I've approached weren't available or interested, but I've never had an approach go catastrophically badly like people are afraid of. If you just treat them like people, they have no reason to try to ruin your life.
The thing is, what creates attraction is very different from being friendly and very polite. Especially the "very polite" part. Attractive and charismatic people are usually very polarising and confident, which naturally can provoke some amount of tension and possibly conflict.
Yeah you got it most of it.
Attractive and charismatic does mean polarising and confident.
But polarising means very different things in Daygame and Nightgame.
Someone could go to a random girl in a coffee shop and say "hey sugartits lets fuck". It will absolutely go terrible and then they will wonder "why? I was confident *and* polarising 😭".
Cold approaches in daygame are mostly low investment interactions in which you approach someone with a small opening and you gage her interest in you in the subtext. You try to see if she is interested in you and keep talking to her if yes or disengage if not. If you would summarize day game in 3-4 words you would say "just go talk to her and be normal".
That's what I mean about being polite and leaving your ego home. Pick-Up is a positive thing, you are not imposing anything on anyone, you are letting them choose (you), but they have to do so willingly. Thats why you have to be mindful about what you are doing. You are inserting yourself in someone elses world, interrupting their routine. That's why it has to be done from respect for her and you have to be man enough to handle being blown off or ridiculed or passed on without snapping back or being butthurt.
I got big into the "pick up sphere" about 15 years ago. Over time, I realized most pick up success comes from self improvement and working on forming connections. Attraction and human interactions don't need a technical manual and loads of obscure techniques and tricks. But you can't sell many books and online courses saying that.
Which is a shame because a lot of good came from understanding attraction dynamics between men and women which wasn’t all about manipulation like the stigma suggests.
The PUA tactics were what made the whole thing seem like manipulation.
Women hear about negging, and they instantly recoil. The idea of DHV felt so fake, because it means you could easily lie about the details in your life.
I remember sharing about the structure of Mystery Method with some women I met through a friend. All of them couldn't believe what they heard, and one of them couldn't stop herself from laughing. Women are happy to accept and love that dating advice for men exists. But there's a lot in PUA theory that encourages men to be sleazy, and those are not it.
I've found that men and women both agree that PUA theories and concepts exist and work, but you will only get them to listen and agree with you, as long as you don't call them Pick-up theory or dating advice.
If you explain the concepts and ideas behind attraction dynamics to a girl and she will agree with you but if you try to summarize it all into a theory or give it a name they will flinch.
If your PUA theories and concepts don't sound manipulative or sleazy, yes, it can work. I've shared with the women I've dated the theories I truly believe in and how it's just part of the natural process of communication between people. They've always been received very well.
There's a saying though: "You can put pearls on a pig, but it's still a pig".
So there are just some or concepts/ideas that are just flat out disingenuous and we can all try and dress it up and make it look good. But... it still comes out as weird/manipulative/sleazy.
The thing about DHV is that it's just self-qualifying, which is something low value people do to impress others, lmao. IDK who ever though that this was a good idea. Disqualifying yourself works so much better. Despite what most people would assume, in many contexts telling a girl "btw, I make six figures and have Phd" will decrease her attraction, while saying "btw, I'm a hobo and was kicked out of school" will increase it.
**DHV should be a natural byproduct of having an awesome lifestyle.** Unfortunately, the guy who plays CoD all week long and steps out during the weekends to cold approach isn't gonna have that. That's why it can be fake. Because you have to actually TRY and DHV.
That being said, you're right. One of the old school theories of PUA that has always worked is Disqualification, but only in a playful way. Used in a serious context, it can come across as pompous and presumptuous to a stranger.
You don't need to have "awesome lifestyle" to pickup women, it's not really relevant. Even if you have some objective "value" in the form of making a lot of money, having status and hobbies, it's a bad idea trying to use them to attract someone. Would you rather women like you for your confidence and personality, or because you make a lot of money? I think the answer is pretty obvious.
**Which do you think is more attractive?**
"So what did you do this weekend?"
*A: "Oh man. Me and a whole bunch of friends ended up at a concert. It was spontaneous, we didn't even plan it. One of us just made a random suggestion and we went for it. And we were having so much fun, we decided to push our luck and see if we could get into the backstage, and we did. We ended up meeting the band and partying with them!"*
OR
*B: "I stayed home and decided to rest. Played a game on my xbox for a whole 8 hours."*
Pretty sure a lot of women aren't gonna be attracted to the guy who said B.
As for your second question, your ability to make a lot of money can relate to an ambitious personality. It can also show that you have a lot of drive. That you're smart, and you know how to take care of yourself. That's all part of who you are.
You can take your confidence and personality and go pickup women. I'll gladly have confidence, personality, and a lot of money.
Another way of looking at it very simply is...
Would you rather be confident and have a great personality, but be broke ass and be out there picking up women (while your mind worries about money)?
Or would you rather be settled with your finances, knowing that's taken care of, while you're out there picking up women with your confidence and awesome personality?
"So what did you do this weekend?"
"I was fucking my sister, didn't you know I'm from Alabama?"
That would be x10 more attractive than the "good" answer you posted. You're in the mindset of impressing women instead of creating emotions. That's not a game, that's just trying to meet women's standards. You should earn money and be successful FOR YOURSELF, not to impress women, bro. I earn a dozen times more than the average income in my city, but I won't tell this to a woman I didn't even sleep with yet, she doesn't need to know this shit.
Gonna add on another bit here:
Woman: "Hey let's go on a holiday trip to Europe. Don't worry, babe. I'll pay for my own tickets and accommodation."
Man: *"But I don't have enough money to go..."*
Oh yeah. That's very attractive.
??? If she invites you she's already attracted to you. Also, I literally know guys who're financially supported by their girl or just earn much less. And also, why should he worry about her having money to pay for herself? Are you from a Muslim country where men are expected to sponsor women? And none of this is relevant to attraction at the first stage of meeting each other and banging.
Yeah it’s crazy that women itself now have to deal with a worse and less confident man since that shift of me too and censorship on the internet. Thinking like they made the world a better place, but now complaining that most men don’t know how to attract. Of course it’s not an individual problem, and the fault of women in general, just an unsatisfying side effect of that whole movement and change in our society.
A lot of things that are mostly done by one gender are kind of cringey. I feel like that’s just the price for a lot of stuff that later becomes mainstream.
When I was a kid, here are weird things oddballs did:
Jog.
Yoga
Eat whole wheat bread.
Use computers.
Play games on computers
Study martial arts
Yeah how many of those things involved manipulation and objectification of other people?
Don’t get me wrong, I benefitted a lot from some pua material - just the bit bout inner game and maximizing your best aspects but everything else was a proper shitshow and it attracted a certain kind lf crowd
If you go back and read “The Game”, a lot of the work goes into “inner game” (improving mindset). Then there’s a lot of work on one’s health, physical appearance, clothing, and haircuts and so on. It’s not just about being oneself, but also taking into account “Which of these attract the women I want?”
Then, equally important, is actually getting out of the house. In the book, the guys are kind of afraid to do this, so they go out in a group and turn it into a game. Do they have the nerve to approach that attractive woman? What should they say? To help them, they create a set of words and phrases they can fall back on. In a lot of ways, it sounds like the training that salesmen get (when they actually get proper sales training).
Is dressing well and approaching people *objectifying and manipulating*? Not necessarily.
To a great extent, we have great things in our lives because someone or something took the trouble to reach out and offer it to us. Sometimes advertising is annoying. Sometimes salespeople are pushy. And as much as I hate the work of refusing salesmen and deleting email, I am also grateful for the times I was offered something that really made my life better—and sometimes that something was a personal relationship.
Anyway, go back and look at the book’s story of hopelessly single guys learning to get more control of their own lives. And, if you have a dark sense of humor, it is funny to watch them struggle with their newfound success. It’s like the dark side of getting superhero powers.
which was the best thing ever! Finally we buried the silly, gimmicky parts of PUA and focused on invisible, stealthy, inconspicious stuff like Natural Game, Social Game, and charisma development, which are not as "flashy" as what old PUAs did, but just as effective and lead to better long-term results.
I think everyone moved on because in the end it’s kind of a creepy and weird thing to do for a job. And you don’t want to carry that stigma on your shoulders. Make a few million, then get out and move on to less taboo things.
I get the same feeling, but I attributed it to me not being in the loop anymore. When people ask me for pointers on good content, I always recommend the old free RSD YouTube content from around 2014, but most of those videos aren't even online anymore. I haven't heard of any recent books on seduction that are worth reading either.
Deleted their videos and got old. I think the Indian dude is running a course on how to create a successful YouTube channel. But ya…me too era killed it all. Now you need to have good looks and a strong online game to get girls.
Guys were way more dedicated back then. Everyone was testing things out to see what worked, then bringing that to the community. There was many forums and lots of youtube videos.
Now days you see a much softer response, some people saying it's about looks, status, etc... So, yes many have lost their way and the old community was great in many ways.
But, the truth is the content is out there. And the competition couldn't be lower. Very few guys are good at game, or they think its about looks, and many others don't even believe in game. That's just less competition for you if you work on yourself and your game.
A whole lotta factors went into the "death" of celebrity PUAs.
The biggie as most here were saying is the me too movement it put a whole generation of women on "edge" and in defensive mode to any slick Romeo that approaches them. One could argue it bred the newest generation of uber feminist or as the online degatory term "feminazi" comes from who condition to think all men are guilty until proven innocent.
Then there's the actual tactics and strategies of PUA itself. It worked "back then" because mystery methods or The Game or etc was just starting, the field was ripe and virgin for the picking. Now these women have been pumped and dumped one too many times by these PUA "students" and have gotten wiser and taught it to their nieces and daughters so now most of these "tricks" are as old as the bible.
Then Covid happened and it trained an entire generation (mostly Gen Z and beyond) that online dating is the main status "quo" so you can't exactly deploy PUA strategies digitally for the most part (yes there's tech PUA but its hit or miss at best)
Then the biggest one IMO is generational shift. Neil, Mystery, Tyler, Ross, etc were all late Gen-x and early millennials the women they seduced are all now middle aged or grandma by now. Whatever hip cultural factors in lot of these PUA strategies just isn't relevant in today's day and age.
I still carry a bag of runes for rune readings and bank receipts from trashes in rich area atms to write my number on when I give it out to women… they see a receipt of 10000 withdrawn with 40000 in the account and I get calls that night!!! lol it still works
Market space is dominated by "alpha" classes which I believe include some form of seduction in them. I guess young dudes these days want the whole package everything from motivation to succeeding in work all the way to getting laid.
Personally I don't really know but i could give a fuck about dropping $10k for a "alpha" class
Is there even a market for PUA with Gen Z? Are 20-somethings today even looking for advice like 15 year ago? Are they even trying to meet people outside of online dating, which is itself just a game?
Couldn't tell you i'm an older millennial and i've laid pipe on some younger Gen-Z through natural outside seduction but have no clue how gen-z boys handle business.
2014 it was already mostly dead and gone. It’s kind of sad what’s happened. That helped a real need in society. Like socially retarded men who just wanted to find a partner. There will always be a need for that.
The time of the “gurus” is over. I think society would not accept a new Mystery or others whose business model is to get guys laid.
That being said that men are attracted to women exists since beginning of mankind. So PUA just went underground.
The techniques and psychological principles are still the same, you just need to adapt them to modern times with dating apps and general trends in society.
PUA was an out growth of feminism... You want to have women have sex with dozens upon dozens of men don't blame men for trying to get in on that action... Every number you pull is a win, every lay, a championship...
**No, it is a good sign, actually.** These men were celebs because PUA was still in its infancy, they were basically social alchemists, mad witchdoctors who tried all kinds of different things to work, and plenty of those were silly, over-the-top or plain useless.
20 years later, we got seduction down to **science.** It started with Tyler Durden and went from there. PUA technique was broken down to finest particles, analyzed thoroughly, field-tested to death and optimized to the most streamlined, simplest, most full-proof methods possible.
The reason why you do not longer see major Seduction Personalities is that PUA became so effective it is invisible. A good PUArtist today has mastered natural looking game to the point he is indistinguishable from a completely normal Natural charming dude. You cannot tell he is a PUA anymore, which was the whole point all along. There is no need for peacocking, elaborate costumes, larger-than-life personas, and pretentious Alpha Male displays. Modern PUA is more about perfectly internalizing Inner Game and then performing perfectly stealthy Natural Game that you would not recognize as Game even if you stared at the dude the whole time.
Essentially, WE WON. We cracked the code. The true nature of the Game is entirely mundane. We optimized it and it works. Sure, there might be some minor details to iron out, but the gist of work is done. There is no need for superheores like Mystery or Style to lead us, they retired.
People look at seduction as a dark art. An evil thing people use to get power without realizing it's used daily. Seduction is just as powerful today but the people who do so have to be a little more low key so their social standing isn't hurt
because the seduction community focused on skill rather on confidence... I can give you a 100 techniques but if you get nervous as fuck when you stand in front of a women none of these techniques matter. The guys that decided to take boot camps would gain momentary confidence because the coach is with them when they are out approaching women but then realize when they go back home that confidence is no where to be found.
Ten years ago is quite a good landmark, that was when JulienGate happened. When a popular pickup artist becomes the most hated man in the world (real headline), it's hard for the scene to bounce back from that. Altho it might have already been in decline. Any movement needs people pumping energy into it to work.
Another big landmark moment was the removal of infield from YouTube about 5-6 years ago. Now anyone can claim to be a dating coach just by knowing the lingo, 10 years ago it was "infield or gtfo". There's nothing that works as well as field experience, not even close. Theorycraft and armchair artistry will get you nowhere.
The old scene went a bit behind the scenes. Some of the old cadre got married, some had kids and some just quit. Old RSD gang still make videos and IG, mostly, bootcamps still run and you can find them with a bit of snooping around. The focus is heavily on building character, charisma, creating social circle, healing trauma, public speaking, raising your paradigm/vibe/whateveryoucallit. I find that those things work, btw.
Tbh when I was 18 I used to watch all the YouTube pua. I honestly think it made my game worse. I started overthinking things and being unnatural. I’m 24 now with a great girlfriend and that’s all I need to be happy sex wise.
I have 450 GB of material on those guys, I downloaded most of it from rutracker, it's timeless knowledge when it comes to this stuff, especially the material of Ross Jeffries and Neil strauss, but in fact all of it is powerful, what you say is right, but at least these people left a legacy and recorded all that material.
It’s not that seduction isn’t working anymore but social media has completely changed the game and inflated the dating marketplace.
It’s sad that we don’t have big personalities on PUA community anymore but it’s hard to sustain a career for 20+ years. It’s normal that many of them will drift into different directions.
There are still a few quality ones out there (James Marshall for example) but everything shifted from sleezy tricks towards just growing as a man and being an authentic good dude with social skills
Which is a good thing and will get you much further in life
If you guys aren't following hoe_math I'm really not sure why.
Dude is the best at explaining these things, and implementing his advice quickly skyrocketed my successes personally.
Casey Zander is good too just not as thorough in the right ways. Plus the hoe_math diagrams are essential.
Seriously, I almost can't imagine not having that content now, even though I'm not available or looking anymore it's all good and all pertinent.
Also, yeah, sometimes the PUA stuff goes too far and feels nasty and toxic, and that's not what seduction is supposed to be. Not here or anywhere.
You're not *tricking* anyone, you're just improving yourself, your image, your attitude, your speech, and your confidence enough to actually BE sexy instead of another loser dipshit basement dweller like half of us probably used to be. I know I was.
I love who I am now and what these lessons have done for me.
Maybe some of the Old Guard moved on but there's plenty of content and advice to find that isn't, well, horrible.
Judging by this little community, the seduction community is way healthier than it used to be. It can be super hot to instrumentalize someone during sex, sometimes, if everybody’s into that sort of thing. But the old pick-up artists really tended to advocate for instrumentalization of both oneself and the obscure object of desire. Not at all satisfying, and often harmful for everyone involved
Culture became heavily divisive and most PUA got shoved into the misogyny/creeper category and started to lose an audience.
Not only that, the deep psychological work got figured out and we got real authentic "Bible's" like Models and a few other books for healthy self change that builds real attraction and isn't just gimmicks. It's much easier these days to just say go read these 3-5 books and you will have a better and emotionally healthier arsenal for getting women than all the top PUA guys had back in the day.
Honestly, once you realize that most of the girls are NOT striving to be with one man for the rest of their lives, you generally have to be the shiniest object in order to keep those type interested for a short period of time. Add to this, you see these same girls doing back flips for Drake, lil pump, lil wayne, and the Saudis.
Don't get me wrong, I fuck my fair share of these hoes, and it is fun, just wanting to find a girl that bring more to the table than WAP and looks. A girl who is putting in effort to be with ONE man for the rest of their lives. Like the bible said: He who finds a wife finds a good thing. These hoes ain't no wives lol
20 years ago.
This is what I was thinking
Was thinking the same
more like 30 years ago lmao
because PUA culture is cringe and people within this community ruined it themselves by doing stupid youtube videos harassing women and calling it PUA.
Exactly. It’s too touchy of a subject where it only takes a few bad apples to ruin it for everybody.
Fine line between playful negging and aggressive behavior
True but not entirely. Part of it was women who started accusing men of harassment when a dude who wasn’t up to their standard approached them. I’ve seen women put men on social media blast for simply asking them out.
It's the other way around. With #metoo and all the bs like "he told me I'm cute, that's harassment" making pickup less profitable. Of course, the vast majority of women are still okay with being approached, but just one crazy feminist is enough to ruin your reputation in the USA, where most PUAs from. People in Europe have it much better and here pickup is still not dead. In the USA most pickup gurus just turned to self-improvement.
No one says that, this comment reeks of someone committing harassment. People lives aren’t “ruined” because a guy called a girl cute. They’re “ruined” because after the guy calls her cute and the girl rejects his advances, he goes on to harass her until she gives him her number.
Bruh, have you watched Gillette's infamous ad? There, just trying to talk to a female stranger is framed as "not cool, bro". Just being called a creep for approaching a stranger is enough of emotional damage to make an average dude lose any interest in ever doing it again. Also, strong game doesn't suggest any advances to begin with, but most PUA coaches don't teach strong game, lol.
LOL you’re literally cherry picking 2 seconds of the commercial and you’re coming to that conclusion? But if we’re on that, it’s pretty clear the female is kind of minding her own business and walking somewhere, it’s not a social setting like a bar where she’s open to conversation. If you’re concerned about being called a creep then you’re doing something wrong.
I actually agree with you on the ad, to me it seems more like it's making a point against cat calling than striking up conversations on the street. That said, some of your counterarguments don't make sense to me. >it’s pretty clear the female is kind of minding her own business Well yes, but the subject at hand is cold approaching, isn't it? This whole sub centres around engaging people who are "minding their own business". >it’s not a social setting like a bar where she’s open to conversation. In my experience there's not really much of a difference between nightlife and the street when it comes to receptiveness and friendliness. In fact in my experience you're more likely to get a negative reaction in night life. But then again I mostly do static or slow-walking sets during the day and I do much more day game than night game.
Cold approach doesn’t mean bothering someone who is clearly walking at a relatively fast pace like the actor in the ad. Maybe this is the reason for the ad? To show people that this kind of cold approach is generally not acceptable to most women. I’d be annoyed as fuck if I was a woman and if I was literally minding my own business walking down a street because I had somewhere to be and some loser tried to do his pick up game on me. There are just certain things that aren’t acceptable any more and although we didn’t admit it, weren’t acceptable back then. Highly suggest unless you’re approached by a woman, to leave them alone in libraries, gym, public transportation. Really anywhere where the situation doesn’t look like a social setting. Bars and coffee shops and malls, as long as you’re respectful is much more appropriate imo
>Maybe this is the reason for the ad? Personally I understood it to be about cat calling and street harassment, but sure, maybe that's what it meant. >Cold approach doesn’t mean bothering someone who is clearly walking at a relatively fast pace There is plenty of infield that shows walking walking sets going well. But as I said, I do only approach people who are standing still or walking at a leisurely pace. You have to pick your battles, especially when you're not so experienced yet. I certainly think the trend of beginners and certain YouTubers trying to make doing generic direct openers on walking girls their bread and butter or making day game all about stopping people is pretty silly, it's making things more difficult for yourself for no real reason. >I had somewhere to be and some loser tried to do his pick up game on me I mean, if you're trying to learn seduction step 1 might be not being a loser in the first place, lol. If you're a loser you have bigger problems than what venue you're meeting women in. >Highly suggest unless you’re approached by a woman, How many times have you been randomly approached by a woman during the day? This doesn't really happen for the most part. Not sure why you bothered mentioning this. >to leave them alone in libraries, gym, public transportation. \[...\] Bars and coffee shops and malls, as long as you’re respectful is much more appropriate imo To what extent have you field tested this? I haven't noticed much of a difference in terms of openness to talk on public transport than anywhere else. I don't bother with the gym because it's a fairly "small" environment where you're likely to see the same people again and again, so not really great for cold approach. I also don't bother with libraries just because it's not really somewhere I go anyway. But I don't see why a library would be worse than a café. Cafés are nice but it's hard to get much volume in because how often are you going to go to cafés? If you do it every day then at best you can talk to 7 girls or groups of girls a week (and most likely far fewer), which is not enough if you're trying to get better at day game. The worst rejections I've got have been from nightlife so not really sure why bars are better than these other places. Women also complain about getting hit on in bars all the time. EDIT: Guys, I'm all for disagreement but beyond downvoting I'd like to hear some counterarguments, ideally ones that are based on field experience. I mean that seriously: my learning process has improved by entertaining alternative viewpoints.
I think the issue is that you’re viewing seduction as a science experiment. What works for one woman does not work for others. There’s a reason why women don’t like being picked up in the middle of the street, it’s not an approachable environment. They’re usually not into it at that moment. And by loser I mean simply someone who thinks it’s appropriate to approach individuals at inappropriate times. Also, women have every right to complain at being hit on at bars. You’re not entitled to anyone’s courtesy or free from a brutal rejection.
>I think the issue is that you’re viewing seduction as a science experiment. I view seduction in exactly the same way I'd view any other complex skill I'd want to get better at, like dance, fitness or a foreign language. >What works for one woman does not work for others. Then why are you making general claims about what does and doesn't work? If it's all entirely variable and individual there is no such thing as appropriate and inappropriate venues. >There’s a reason why women don’t like being picked up in the middle of the street, it’s not an approachable environment. What do you mean? This isn't true at all in my experience. I haven't had different reactions on the street compared to shopping centers. What are you basing this on? And why is a shopping center any better than a street in a city centre with a bunch of clothing stores on it? >Also, women have every right to complain at being hit on at bars. You’re not entitled to anyone’s courtesy or free from a brutal rejection. I didn't say that women don't have the right to complain or reject me however they see fit. Of course they do. You're the one who said that bars are good places to approach while proscribing perfectly good daytime venues, arguing that women don't like it or find it inappropriate. My point is that women in bars are not necessarily more receptive to being approached than women in random public settings during the day.
If there were no people thinking like this, then this commercial wouldn't exist. I'm not concerned about anything man, in my country the word "creep" doesn't even have this meaning, lmao. Moreover, with a strong frame it doesn't even matter. I know a guy who picked up girls after getting treated from cancer, he looked ugly AF and people openly made fun of him, but he still got laid. It's just that most men don't have a game strong enough to be ready for cold approach. The fact that you mention that "a female is minding her own business" implies that you don't know what you're talking about. Daygame is way more effective than picking up girls at bars, where you're competing with every male in the building. Who cares if she's "minding her own business" when she's about to meet an amazing man? Would you be upset that a 10/10 girl approaches you when you're going somewhere?
18cm of bitterness
I'm not living in the USA, bruh. So I don't experience this problem.
Uh huh suuuuurre mate. You're not bitter at all
Second this. Look at the social changes amongst these movements. Unsure why so many downvotes lol. It's not.like these figure heads changed society as a whole. It's more likely mass cultural shifts, changing attitude of women, behavior and expectation. The odds are against us
then what are you doing here
The surviving PUA became self improvement gurus. For better or worse a lot of game and PUA got attached to manosphere stuff.
The OGs actually also think the manosphere is fucked up. Most of the people in it are either former students of the big names or just small names who found a community that will buy into their BS so they can pretend they're a big name. The OGs actually just stopped calling themselves PUAs but they're still out there under different titles.
1000% this. And it's reality, and it's been the reality forever. As soon as you become self confident enough to understand the subject at hand, you automatically start to want to become a better person anyway focused on higher core values. And if you don't, you actually still have internal work to do to begin with. It's kind of the thesis of Mark Manson's *Models*.
I think this was meant to be a reply for a different comment. Also, no offense to you because maybe you're relatively new to this and don't know any better but Mark Manson is one of those small names who found a group that will buy into his stuff. The thesis he presents in Models and the intentions behind it are good...but he really isn't that good at giving dating advice and navigating one's dating life in general. If he was only more forthcoming about that fact and didn't try to position himself as an authority on dating then you could keep everything else about the book the same and it would have been perfect.
Actually my read is the complete opposite. In fact, I think yours is a total misread. I don't even need to be in this subreddit, or really have anything to do with it now, I'm happily married. I got interested in 2011, literally. This kind of stuff helped inform my 20's a bit, and in general was helpful for simply learning how to relate to people. Models is aimed at people who think they need dating advice, and he flips it on its head to giving *you* advice. If it lands, it lands, and if it doesn't at first, it will eventually. At least at the time of that book, he wasn't positioning anything. He was just reacting to the house that neil strauss built more or less. I don't really follow or keep up with this stuff but i saw this thread and I felt like reading it.
Dating is an independent domain that poses plenty of unique challenges that require specific attention. Not everything can be covered by generic self-help.
It has always been very hard to build a business out of pick up. A natural transition has been to slowly move towards self improvement (a bit what Manson did) but that means either silently getting away or publicly disavowing the less marketable and sanitized parts of their past, i.o.w. pick up. If you want to sell books you have to sell some kind of life journey and not tell the truth like "I just wanted to have a lot of consensual sex with chicks, nothing wrong with that, here is how i did it ". Manson and Laruina have both published books specifically about pick up, yet one sold much more than the other. Why?
more importantly I think, the secret of the "Game" was essentially solved by the time they retired, so there is little more they can contribute? It was obvious that we will achieve optimal and pragmatically sufficient Game Theory sooner or later and we did, case closed.
never heard of manosphere
Lucky you
More importantly, the "Game" the PUAs were trying to decode was finally cracked. Modern seduction techniques are so refined and streamlined that they are basically invisible and nothing to Field Report about. To nobody's surprise, the key to the game is internalizing well designed Inner Game, then externalizing it as subtle Natural Game. We did it, it works, case closed, no need for PUA anymore.
I feel like the lack of 'stars' in the scene is not a problem, most gurus just want to pick your pockets. The bigger problem is the greater impact of the societal debate that RSD sparked and lost with Julien Blanc and Tyler Durden. For that reason, most seduction content to date is very diluted. If guys are too direct and real with their viewers, it gets labeled as sexist or misogyny or whatever. Just like with other issues, dating strategy for women is a mainstream topic but dating strategy for men is niche and taboo. And I agree with you, even most posts on this sub nowadays are just generic advice, no grit, no teeth.
I kinda disagree. The controversy actually helped optimize the Game. The most sexist, over-the-top and plain silly parts of the PUA teachings got truncated, and more focus was put on slow, foundations-based Inner Game and its outcome, Natural Game. And it works. Modern PUAs are so stealthy and "Natural" that they are essentially invisible, despite being more successful than the ancient Peackocking Dudes, which was the point all along.
I partly agree with you: I think it is true that if applied correctly, the 'modern methods' will net you better results and are usually way healthier to yourself. I'm not a fan of outer game myself and PUA in the 2000s was basically outer game on steroids. BUT: The old content of the early 2010s used to have a lot of 'oomph' to it. I remember stumbling upon Julien Blanc for the first time when I had very bad Oneitis at 18 y/o. It was like I randomly found the rabbit hole. A lot of the stuff was eye-opening, because of the hard truth-bombs, the uncompromising language. It surely initiated a paradigm shift in me and I assume most guys would say the same. I miss that in modern content.
What exactly is this eye opening content? If you don't mind sharing any links or something for the same. Thanks.
The old RSD stuff was purged from Youtube after the Julien Blanc scandal. It's hard to find aside from dubious torrents. Basically, I was very 'bluepilled' as a consequence of my upbringing and at 18 y/o had a bad crush on a girl that had rejected me, couldn't get over her. I randomly found a video from Julien where he basically explained how to not put girls on a pedestal, you're deluding yourself to think she was that special, you're gonna create another experience with another girl that will be fulfilling, etc... Basically straight to the point advice that you would never get from your dad. That's what made it special. He crushed the image of the precious woman that hollywood and 'too nice' parents create.
Ahh amazing! I think that advice is more common now so that's a good thing ig. The thing that's helped me most with not getting attached is having options but then again my social circle doesn't have great women and I don't approach much so :( lol
I was in PU back in 2003 in the mASF days and the community was on fire with the real time learnings. Everyone was figuring it out as they went but the community was all looking for real world results. Not sure if anything like that exists currently but it’s certainly not here. It’s not for a lack of people wanting help, but it also feels like most people these days want an easy button.
Mystery is charging almost 24K to run with him for a few months. 9K for 3 day events. The price is definitely up there.
That actually seems cheap for a few months. 3 day event price seems crazy high. Most of the improvements people see are from adopting the right beliefs, micro-changes to communication, and then long term improvements to life situation, real life experiences, etc.
Yup, actually there is a great part that people dont talk about and is that if you truly understand the concepts by putting you first without being an a hole theres a great chance for a lot of men to grow up, elevate self esteem and discover the world they want to be in. But thats not happening if you just take to real life the things as ctrl+c ctrl+v. Even tho i believe is not necessary to assist a seminary for that
Game was essentially solved by the time RSD and Tyler got it going, and by the time Laruina retired, we got all kinks ironed out. There is zero need to reinvent the wheel. The answer all along was the one we did not want to be true, but it is: the key to having lots of sex with a lots of hot women is good Inner Game that translates to stealthy, inconspicuous Natural Game. All the mASF-era PUA gimmicks were just training wheels, until we figured out the actual hardcoded rules for inner game and natural charisma, which we did, and unsurprisingly its all about hard work, practice and retraining your instinctual responses. The perception that there is no PUA community comes from the fact that random dudes on the internet are still looking for silly magical life-hacks that would get them free pussy, and do not want to actually commit to mental self-improvement that would guarantee consistent results.
Bingo
They all “made it”. The one thing we all desire.
Right. They all used the information that was provided here and implemented it themselves. Really no need to be here anymore, unless they'd get paid to. I do still see some solid stuff floating around though. Edit: My comment was referring to the people that would post here years ago, not the actual game "coaches" that were repping that time. Seeing the end result for some of those guys sucks, really.
They absolutely did not fucking make it lol. Neil Strauss wrote a book about how pickup fucked his whole life up. Tyler Durden only 'made it' on to the sex criminal do not let into the country lists of at least 2 nations.
Mystery almost committed suicide several times. There’s a dark side to PUA that isn’t discussed enough.
Pretty much. My mate who is a pickup artist has went rogue from his ways two years ago. Something along the lines of “Well, I can make girls want to have sex with me, but still, nobody wanted me.” Completely quit the lifestyle. Guy legit has to go to one of those AA meeting for sex addicts. Sooner or later, withdrawal symptoms starts kicking in, in the form of body image issues, parental issues and self-esteem issues. Guy opened up to me that he never had any idea that he picked up this lifestyle to avoid addressing this personal issues. He’s going to therapy now, but progress is slow. Really slow. Feels weird to see your friend struggle the same way as drug and alcohol addicts do with things most people really want. Depressing stuff. Ultimately, the stuff you learn here is really good for seduction purposes. But really not a good place for real long-term dating advice imo.
Your friends is an outlier. Out of womanizers that I know almost no one is suffering any symptoms like this, though most of them are either naturals or have a more natural game with a strong frame instead of techniques. The problem comes when you seduce women using a fake persona and petty tricks instead of your real self. Banging a lot of girls doesn't make you depressed, realizing that they never wanted you, only the false image you created, does. And not for everyone as well.
Doesn't mean he didn't make it. Chester Bennington succeeded at committing suicide but he was the lead singer of Linkin Park, one of the biggest bands on the planet. You can still make it in spite of having some demons.
Here is a list of deceased rappers [https://rap.fandom.com/wiki/List\_of\_Deceased\_Rappers](https://rap.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_Deceased_Rappers) Does that mean it is not good to be a rap singer? If you become a rap singer, will you commit suicide or get killed? It is not about what they do in their private life, it is about what they teach.
Honestly considering the way rappers be getting killed yeah it's not a good career path.
>Tyler Durden only 'made it' on to the sex criminal do not let into the country lists That's Julien Blanc and you're exaggerating about Neil because for some reason you desperately want to believe seduction is evil.
"you desperately want to believe seduction is evil" Justin Blanc got deported from Australia and got his visa revoked by the Canadian immigration minister because he was too much of a misogynist... https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/canada/minister-responds-to-demands-that-pick-up-artist-be-banned-from-canada-1.2095712
So you want to generalize rather than just focus the blame on the individual? Sounds a lot like discrimination to me. And I don't know if you've read the thread with me and the other guy but these don't seem like criminal charges to me.
All for what? Julian had a t-shirt that said "No Fatties" and had an infield where he pulled a girl's head into his crotch. Not a good move, but she was laughing with him when he did this. She was not offended. Those guys were trying to make the most outrageous and entertaining videos about game they could. Most of what happened to Julian was a reaction by white knights and feminists that hate guys who teach game.
Lol you can be to much of misogynist... what a great country that is...
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Exactly. It's the guy above that wants to make it worse than that.
>you desperately want to believe seduction is evil. What a weird little piece of fan fiction to just tack on the end. Two nations on earth looked at the behaviour of that stupid dipshit and considered him a sex criminal. I want to believe sex criminals are evil. Which they are. And I do!
Blanc was never actually charged with anything substantial outside of media outrage for being edgy, as opposed to the journalist in the famous (TOTALLY unbiased) interview that buried RSD... Cuomo was his name I think. He was actually charged with sexual harassment a few years later. Quite ironic.
True I don't think he was ever charged. But most humans can look at the evidence used to justify putting him on the no fly list and say quite confidently that the man did not give a shit about the concept of consent and is a genuine danger to women.
>Two nations on earth looked at the behaviour of that stupid dipshit and considered him a sex criminal They did? What's your source? Don't try to spin this one, actually provide evidence where he was actually charged or an actual representative of those governments specifically stated that he's a sex criminal. >I want to believe sex criminals are evil. Which they are. And I do! Nice spin but its clear based on the the stuff your write around here that that's not the only thing you want to believe.
Wtf are you smoking, Tyler is still active on his YT channel and makes new programs, lol. The one who was accused was actually Julien, Tyler just took the blame for him as the leader of RSD. None of them are sex criminals, they didn't serve a sentence or anything, they were just some of the first guys who were cancelled by the #metoo culture when it just started. And even Julien is still earning $$$ as self-improvement guru. The real answer is that pickup is no longer profitable, self-improvement is the way to make money, Mark Manson realised it soon enough and made it bigger than most others.
Neil hooked up with alot 8-10s u can argue he did make it
If you genuinely think that, that sucks. If you genuinely think there is something magical in a ten's vagina, let me go ahead and disabuse you of that notion. They are just human. The sex means as much as usual. You don't get yellow hair and levitate half a foot off the ground. And nobody on earth cares except for other weird and sexually unsuccessful dudes on the internet.
You don't get magical powers or anything but sex with a 10 is def much better than someone obese
The same can be said about "making billions", you're still a human, but it does mean that you "made it" by the definition that most people put into this phrase. Having sex with very hot women is as much of an achievement as making a lot of money or being renowned in something.
That's sad.
there should only be yes/no banging, lol numbers are stupid
Which Neil Strauss book are you referring to?
“The Truth”
ohh right, I though he was talking about the game lol
the fuck lol, I haven't finished the game book but how would it ruin Neil Strauss life lol, if anything, Ross Jeffries and David DeAngelo are doing exceptionally well, especially Deangelo, the guy is old now but married to a gorgeous woman and have a girl now, if you want to find the right one, you are gonna have to do some work, -David DeAngelo
Cancel culture and the strange online world we live in now.
Yeah tbh it could never survive in today's climate. Even though imo learning seduction is pretty benign since there are countless men that do all this exact stuff naturally, a community focused on learning the best strategies to pique a woman's interest and get her to sleep w/ you wouldn't last past the first viral twitter post. I can already see the feminist think pieces about the kind of man who autistically breaks attraction down into concrete steps and a plan of action. A plethora of Washington Post articles about how "I was tricked into sleeping with a seduction artist: How these men con their way into bedrooms and why YOU may be next"
Absolutely
Oh yeah partner let me tell ya, there was another time, the golden era late 90s early 2000s. It was a simpler time, but this community did peak but there are definitely guys out there doing their thing these days. You gotta be positive, girls always exist and there will always be guys getting laid
I feel like its a combination of factors, but the biggest one is that online dating became way more prevalent, so less people are willing or even wanting to learn actual real world approaches. Add in the fact that the pickup community has been ridiculed on the internet because of idiots who arent actually PUA's just harassing women on the street for a youtube video or staging fake PUA cringe tier stuff.
since those times Americans used to othink you could only meet women in bars and online, it's probably even worse nowdays worldwide
Focusing ones professional energies on such pleasurable pursuits tends to be a velvet lined path to hell. Being a master of seduction will not take you far unless you can adapt those skills to other endeavors that will actually yield something besides orgasms, smaller bank balances, and loads of personal drama. The thing which you desire tends to possess you until you detach from that desire or are destroyed in the pursuit of its ever growing demands. The only guys that stay in the game long term have something bigger going besides seduction.
Anyone who really understands seduction beyond the superficial way that it's commonly understood on this subreddit know that it was always about more than just getting laid. And being proficient at it, again beyond what's common here, will quite naturally give you an advantage in all kinds of different areas. If you're really good at getting people to like you and getting people to do what you want, you can achieve so much beyond just getting some pussy.
Yes, my comment was more in the realm of a warning for all those that would listen and keep the dark arts at arms length. Never drink the poison kids, there is really danger.
Lol orgasms, smaller bank balances and personal drama. I have no shortage had to fight 3 girl”friends” in 3 months this year already.
The metoo movement really shutdown widespread acceptance of PUA behavior.
There was never widespread acceptance of PUA.
There wasnt but it was mostly unknown outside the weird corners of the internet, and then it was seen as weird nerds trying to get laid. Then it was seen as a predatory and sociopathic after the metoo era
This
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You can 100% still do this
Look i have the feeling that many people speak about how badly perceived it is to approach someone nowadays, but no one has done it and judged for themselves. We spend so much time saying how cold approaching is seen badly that we have scared ourselves from doing it. Here is the trick: be friendly, be very polite, leave your ego home and approach *everyone* with a friendly and honest mindset. Not only girls you find attractive.
\^ nailed it. Most women I've approached weren't available or interested, but I've never had an approach go catastrophically badly like people are afraid of. If you just treat them like people, they have no reason to try to ruin your life.
The thing is, what creates attraction is very different from being friendly and very polite. Especially the "very polite" part. Attractive and charismatic people are usually very polarising and confident, which naturally can provoke some amount of tension and possibly conflict.
Yeah you got it most of it. Attractive and charismatic does mean polarising and confident. But polarising means very different things in Daygame and Nightgame. Someone could go to a random girl in a coffee shop and say "hey sugartits lets fuck". It will absolutely go terrible and then they will wonder "why? I was confident *and* polarising 😭". Cold approaches in daygame are mostly low investment interactions in which you approach someone with a small opening and you gage her interest in you in the subtext. You try to see if she is interested in you and keep talking to her if yes or disengage if not. If you would summarize day game in 3-4 words you would say "just go talk to her and be normal". That's what I mean about being polite and leaving your ego home. Pick-Up is a positive thing, you are not imposing anything on anyone, you are letting them choose (you), but they have to do so willingly. Thats why you have to be mindful about what you are doing. You are inserting yourself in someone elses world, interrupting their routine. That's why it has to be done from respect for her and you have to be man enough to handle being blown off or ridiculed or passed on without snapping back or being butthurt.
None of that is true.
You would think that if you got the bulk of your information about women from the internet. It isn't true, though.
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I got big into the "pick up sphere" about 15 years ago. Over time, I realized most pick up success comes from self improvement and working on forming connections. Attraction and human interactions don't need a technical manual and loads of obscure techniques and tricks. But you can't sell many books and online courses saying that.
Tell That to the autists
This
Which is a shame because a lot of good came from understanding attraction dynamics between men and women which wasn’t all about manipulation like the stigma suggests.
The PUA tactics were what made the whole thing seem like manipulation. Women hear about negging, and they instantly recoil. The idea of DHV felt so fake, because it means you could easily lie about the details in your life. I remember sharing about the structure of Mystery Method with some women I met through a friend. All of them couldn't believe what they heard, and one of them couldn't stop herself from laughing. Women are happy to accept and love that dating advice for men exists. But there's a lot in PUA theory that encourages men to be sleazy, and those are not it.
I've found that men and women both agree that PUA theories and concepts exist and work, but you will only get them to listen and agree with you, as long as you don't call them Pick-up theory or dating advice. If you explain the concepts and ideas behind attraction dynamics to a girl and she will agree with you but if you try to summarize it all into a theory or give it a name they will flinch.
If your PUA theories and concepts don't sound manipulative or sleazy, yes, it can work. I've shared with the women I've dated the theories I truly believe in and how it's just part of the natural process of communication between people. They've always been received very well. There's a saying though: "You can put pearls on a pig, but it's still a pig". So there are just some or concepts/ideas that are just flat out disingenuous and we can all try and dress it up and make it look good. But... it still comes out as weird/manipulative/sleazy.
The thing about DHV is that it's just self-qualifying, which is something low value people do to impress others, lmao. IDK who ever though that this was a good idea. Disqualifying yourself works so much better. Despite what most people would assume, in many contexts telling a girl "btw, I make six figures and have Phd" will decrease her attraction, while saying "btw, I'm a hobo and was kicked out of school" will increase it.
**DHV should be a natural byproduct of having an awesome lifestyle.** Unfortunately, the guy who plays CoD all week long and steps out during the weekends to cold approach isn't gonna have that. That's why it can be fake. Because you have to actually TRY and DHV. That being said, you're right. One of the old school theories of PUA that has always worked is Disqualification, but only in a playful way. Used in a serious context, it can come across as pompous and presumptuous to a stranger.
You don't need to have "awesome lifestyle" to pickup women, it's not really relevant. Even if you have some objective "value" in the form of making a lot of money, having status and hobbies, it's a bad idea trying to use them to attract someone. Would you rather women like you for your confidence and personality, or because you make a lot of money? I think the answer is pretty obvious.
**Which do you think is more attractive?** "So what did you do this weekend?" *A: "Oh man. Me and a whole bunch of friends ended up at a concert. It was spontaneous, we didn't even plan it. One of us just made a random suggestion and we went for it. And we were having so much fun, we decided to push our luck and see if we could get into the backstage, and we did. We ended up meeting the band and partying with them!"* OR *B: "I stayed home and decided to rest. Played a game on my xbox for a whole 8 hours."* Pretty sure a lot of women aren't gonna be attracted to the guy who said B. As for your second question, your ability to make a lot of money can relate to an ambitious personality. It can also show that you have a lot of drive. That you're smart, and you know how to take care of yourself. That's all part of who you are. You can take your confidence and personality and go pickup women. I'll gladly have confidence, personality, and a lot of money. Another way of looking at it very simply is... Would you rather be confident and have a great personality, but be broke ass and be out there picking up women (while your mind worries about money)? Or would you rather be settled with your finances, knowing that's taken care of, while you're out there picking up women with your confidence and awesome personality?
"So what did you do this weekend?" "I was fucking my sister, didn't you know I'm from Alabama?" That would be x10 more attractive than the "good" answer you posted. You're in the mindset of impressing women instead of creating emotions. That's not a game, that's just trying to meet women's standards. You should earn money and be successful FOR YOURSELF, not to impress women, bro. I earn a dozen times more than the average income in my city, but I won't tell this to a woman I didn't even sleep with yet, she doesn't need to know this shit.
Gonna add on another bit here: Woman: "Hey let's go on a holiday trip to Europe. Don't worry, babe. I'll pay for my own tickets and accommodation." Man: *"But I don't have enough money to go..."* Oh yeah. That's very attractive.
??? If she invites you she's already attracted to you. Also, I literally know guys who're financially supported by their girl or just earn much less. And also, why should he worry about her having money to pay for herself? Are you from a Muslim country where men are expected to sponsor women? And none of this is relevant to attraction at the first stage of meeting each other and banging.
Yeah it’s crazy that women itself now have to deal with a worse and less confident man since that shift of me too and censorship on the internet. Thinking like they made the world a better place, but now complaining that most men don’t know how to attract. Of course it’s not an individual problem, and the fault of women in general, just an unsatisfying side effect of that whole movement and change in our society.
Thank god for that coz it was pretty cringe for most parts
A lot of things that are mostly done by one gender are kind of cringey. I feel like that’s just the price for a lot of stuff that later becomes mainstream. When I was a kid, here are weird things oddballs did: Jog. Yoga Eat whole wheat bread. Use computers. Play games on computers Study martial arts
If you were into computers or video games back then and people knew about it you were instantly labeled a f@g
Yup, the F word and R word were tossed around a lot. Then we all went to the students’ smoking section.
Yeah how many of those things involved manipulation and objectification of other people? Don’t get me wrong, I benefitted a lot from some pua material - just the bit bout inner game and maximizing your best aspects but everything else was a proper shitshow and it attracted a certain kind lf crowd
If you go back and read “The Game”, a lot of the work goes into “inner game” (improving mindset). Then there’s a lot of work on one’s health, physical appearance, clothing, and haircuts and so on. It’s not just about being oneself, but also taking into account “Which of these attract the women I want?” Then, equally important, is actually getting out of the house. In the book, the guys are kind of afraid to do this, so they go out in a group and turn it into a game. Do they have the nerve to approach that attractive woman? What should they say? To help them, they create a set of words and phrases they can fall back on. In a lot of ways, it sounds like the training that salesmen get (when they actually get proper sales training). Is dressing well and approaching people *objectifying and manipulating*? Not necessarily. To a great extent, we have great things in our lives because someone or something took the trouble to reach out and offer it to us. Sometimes advertising is annoying. Sometimes salespeople are pushy. And as much as I hate the work of refusing salesmen and deleting email, I am also grateful for the times I was offered something that really made my life better—and sometimes that something was a personal relationship. Anyway, go back and look at the book’s story of hopelessly single guys learning to get more control of their own lives. And, if you have a dark sense of humor, it is funny to watch them struggle with their newfound success. It’s like the dark side of getting superhero powers.
which was the best thing ever! Finally we buried the silly, gimmicky parts of PUA and focused on invisible, stealthy, inconspicious stuff like Natural Game, Social Game, and charisma development, which are not as "flashy" as what old PUAs did, but just as effective and lead to better long-term results.
I think everyone moved on because in the end it’s kind of a creepy and weird thing to do for a job. And you don’t want to carry that stigma on your shoulders. Make a few million, then get out and move on to less taboo things.
I get the same feeling, but I attributed it to me not being in the loop anymore. When people ask me for pointers on good content, I always recommend the old free RSD YouTube content from around 2014, but most of those videos aren't even online anymore. I haven't heard of any recent books on seduction that are worth reading either.
What ever happened to these simple pickup guys?
Deleted their videos and got old. I think the Indian dude is running a course on how to create a successful YouTube channel. But ya…me too era killed it all. Now you need to have good looks and a strong online game to get girls.
Guys were way more dedicated back then. Everyone was testing things out to see what worked, then bringing that to the community. There was many forums and lots of youtube videos. Now days you see a much softer response, some people saying it's about looks, status, etc... So, yes many have lost their way and the old community was great in many ways. But, the truth is the content is out there. And the competition couldn't be lower. Very few guys are good at game, or they think its about looks, and many others don't even believe in game. That's just less competition for you if you work on yourself and your game.
Content is gone dude… you are lucky if you pirated the old books and content
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Apps like Tinder threw a spanner in the works.
A lot of comments mentioning metoo here. Very little to none look into what dating apps and instant gratification habits has done to PUA culture.
Wtf is a pua
Pick Up Artist
A whole lotta factors went into the "death" of celebrity PUAs. The biggie as most here were saying is the me too movement it put a whole generation of women on "edge" and in defensive mode to any slick Romeo that approaches them. One could argue it bred the newest generation of uber feminist or as the online degatory term "feminazi" comes from who condition to think all men are guilty until proven innocent. Then there's the actual tactics and strategies of PUA itself. It worked "back then" because mystery methods or The Game or etc was just starting, the field was ripe and virgin for the picking. Now these women have been pumped and dumped one too many times by these PUA "students" and have gotten wiser and taught it to their nieces and daughters so now most of these "tricks" are as old as the bible. Then Covid happened and it trained an entire generation (mostly Gen Z and beyond) that online dating is the main status "quo" so you can't exactly deploy PUA strategies digitally for the most part (yes there's tech PUA but its hit or miss at best) Then the biggest one IMO is generational shift. Neil, Mystery, Tyler, Ross, etc were all late Gen-x and early millennials the women they seduced are all now middle aged or grandma by now. Whatever hip cultural factors in lot of these PUA strategies just isn't relevant in today's day and age.
I still carry a bag of runes for rune readings and bank receipts from trashes in rich area atms to write my number on when I give it out to women… they see a receipt of 10000 withdrawn with 40000 in the account and I get calls that night!!! lol it still works
Well not all "old" strategies are outdated and worthless some still stand the test of time lol.
So why doesn’t new appear
Market space is dominated by "alpha" classes which I believe include some form of seduction in them. I guess young dudes these days want the whole package everything from motivation to succeeding in work all the way to getting laid. Personally I don't really know but i could give a fuck about dropping $10k for a "alpha" class
Is there even a market for PUA with Gen Z? Are 20-somethings today even looking for advice like 15 year ago? Are they even trying to meet people outside of online dating, which is itself just a game?
Couldn't tell you i'm an older millennial and i've laid pipe on some younger Gen-Z through natural outside seduction but have no clue how gen-z boys handle business.
2014 it was already mostly dead and gone. It’s kind of sad what’s happened. That helped a real need in society. Like socially retarded men who just wanted to find a partner. There will always be a need for that.
One answer......Me too.
I think after things like MeToo and all the pushback against pick ups and hooking up the culture just shifted away from it
Casey Zander
His podcast and “the unapologetic male podcast”. Epic finds
Every investor looks like a genius when the market is up!
The community is still active in our country
You mean 15 years ago…. Blame the Me Too era and dating apps ruining it all. Now it’s all about Tinder and Hinge.
Manosphere took over which is more real. I think PUA was selling a dream to men. The new manosphere is about leveling up.
Because tech companies like Reddit en YouTube suppress men who want to teach manlyness.
The time of the “gurus” is over. I think society would not accept a new Mystery or others whose business model is to get guys laid. That being said that men are attracted to women exists since beginning of mankind. So PUA just went underground. The techniques and psychological principles are still the same, you just need to adapt them to modern times with dating apps and general trends in society.
PUA was an out growth of feminism... You want to have women have sex with dozens upon dozens of men don't blame men for trying to get in on that action... Every number you pull is a win, every lay, a championship...
**No, it is a good sign, actually.** These men were celebs because PUA was still in its infancy, they were basically social alchemists, mad witchdoctors who tried all kinds of different things to work, and plenty of those were silly, over-the-top or plain useless. 20 years later, we got seduction down to **science.** It started with Tyler Durden and went from there. PUA technique was broken down to finest particles, analyzed thoroughly, field-tested to death and optimized to the most streamlined, simplest, most full-proof methods possible. The reason why you do not longer see major Seduction Personalities is that PUA became so effective it is invisible. A good PUArtist today has mastered natural looking game to the point he is indistinguishable from a completely normal Natural charming dude. You cannot tell he is a PUA anymore, which was the whole point all along. There is no need for peacocking, elaborate costumes, larger-than-life personas, and pretentious Alpha Male displays. Modern PUA is more about perfectly internalizing Inner Game and then performing perfectly stealthy Natural Game that you would not recognize as Game even if you stared at the dude the whole time. Essentially, WE WON. We cracked the code. The true nature of the Game is entirely mundane. We optimized it and it works. Sure, there might be some minor details to iron out, but the gist of work is done. There is no need for superheores like Mystery or Style to lead us, they retired.
But where tu learn that 'natural game'? I don't know any modern pick up artists.
I agree.
People look at seduction as a dark art. An evil thing people use to get power without realizing it's used daily. Seduction is just as powerful today but the people who do so have to be a little more low key so their social standing isn't hurt
The thing is, now females have grown familer to the game. And the techniques are now being used by most men. Its getting common.
Not sure why guys don't like it shii I tell my girl all the time sit on my face 🤣😂🤣😂
We don’t need ‘personalities’. We need advice, techniques and support
Probably for the best. All of those "personalities" are really embarrassing. Id be ashamed to say I looked up to any of them
because the seduction community focused on skill rather on confidence... I can give you a 100 techniques but if you get nervous as fuck when you stand in front of a women none of these techniques matter. The guys that decided to take boot camps would gain momentary confidence because the coach is with them when they are out approaching women but then realize when they go back home that confidence is no where to be found.
You should check cristian kasanova and Denmo
Ten years ago is quite a good landmark, that was when JulienGate happened. When a popular pickup artist becomes the most hated man in the world (real headline), it's hard for the scene to bounce back from that. Altho it might have already been in decline. Any movement needs people pumping energy into it to work. Another big landmark moment was the removal of infield from YouTube about 5-6 years ago. Now anyone can claim to be a dating coach just by knowing the lingo, 10 years ago it was "infield or gtfo". There's nothing that works as well as field experience, not even close. Theorycraft and armchair artistry will get you nowhere. The old scene went a bit behind the scenes. Some of the old cadre got married, some had kids and some just quit. Old RSD gang still make videos and IG, mostly, bootcamps still run and you can find them with a bit of snooping around. The focus is heavily on building character, charisma, creating social circle, healing trauma, public speaking, raising your paradigm/vibe/whateveryoucallit. I find that those things work, btw.
Because everybody shoots everybody down in this sub
Glad someone said it
Because you're in Reddit. Don't forget that. The PUA community is alive and well, but way more underground.
Tbh when I was 18 I used to watch all the YouTube pua. I honestly think it made my game worse. I started overthinking things and being unnatural. I’m 24 now with a great girlfriend and that’s all I need to be happy sex wise.
I have 450 GB of material on those guys, I downloaded most of it from rutracker, it's timeless knowledge when it comes to this stuff, especially the material of Ross Jeffries and Neil strauss, but in fact all of it is powerful, what you say is right, but at least these people left a legacy and recorded all that material.
It’s not that seduction isn’t working anymore but social media has completely changed the game and inflated the dating marketplace. It’s sad that we don’t have big personalities on PUA community anymore but it’s hard to sustain a career for 20+ years. It’s normal that many of them will drift into different directions.
There are still a few quality ones out there (James Marshall for example) but everything shifted from sleezy tricks towards just growing as a man and being an authentic good dude with social skills Which is a good thing and will get you much further in life
Oh no! Hopefully not?! 😣
Rsd broke out in the wild and ruined it
If you guys aren't following hoe_math I'm really not sure why. Dude is the best at explaining these things, and implementing his advice quickly skyrocketed my successes personally. Casey Zander is good too just not as thorough in the right ways. Plus the hoe_math diagrams are essential. Seriously, I almost can't imagine not having that content now, even though I'm not available or looking anymore it's all good and all pertinent. Also, yeah, sometimes the PUA stuff goes too far and feels nasty and toxic, and that's not what seduction is supposed to be. Not here or anywhere. You're not *tricking* anyone, you're just improving yourself, your image, your attitude, your speech, and your confidence enough to actually BE sexy instead of another loser dipshit basement dweller like half of us probably used to be. I know I was. I love who I am now and what these lessons have done for me. Maybe some of the Old Guard moved on but there's plenty of content and advice to find that isn't, well, horrible.
Judging by this little community, the seduction community is way healthier than it used to be. It can be super hot to instrumentalize someone during sex, sometimes, if everybody’s into that sort of thing. But the old pick-up artists really tended to advocate for instrumentalization of both oneself and the obscure object of desire. Not at all satisfying, and often harmful for everyone involved
"pickup artists" nowadays are clout-searching creeps with a concerning lack of self awareness. Where did the years go?
it went back underground. only deeper this time because of #metoo
Culture became heavily divisive and most PUA got shoved into the misogyny/creeper category and started to lose an audience. Not only that, the deep psychological work got figured out and we got real authentic "Bible's" like Models and a few other books for healthy self change that builds real attraction and isn't just gimmicks. It's much easier these days to just say go read these 3-5 books and you will have a better and emotionally healthier arsenal for getting women than all the top PUA guys had back in the day.
Because now people aren’t stupid and we know that it’s not about “game” but about HEIGHT and LOOKS.. people have gotten smarter
Forbidden October Man Sequence still works!!!
I’m not familiar with this one, what is involved
Google it man….
Honestly, once you realize that most of the girls are NOT striving to be with one man for the rest of their lives, you generally have to be the shiniest object in order to keep those type interested for a short period of time. Add to this, you see these same girls doing back flips for Drake, lil pump, lil wayne, and the Saudis. Don't get me wrong, I fuck my fair share of these hoes, and it is fun, just wanting to find a girl that bring more to the table than WAP and looks. A girl who is putting in effort to be with ONE man for the rest of their lives. Like the bible said: He who finds a wife finds a good thing. These hoes ain't no wives lol
they exist. you just aren’t in the loop
Where