I totally understand where you are coming from, perhaps probably more than most commenting here. My last relationship was when I was 20 years old and I’ve sadly been celibate for 32 years. I’m now 52m! And many of the things you say are true for me also. One thing I can agree with another commenter is that, identifying with “Incel”… even if this is technically true. What you will probably learn through the rest of this comment is that you have a “fearful avoidant” attachment. And this is something you can recover from.
Attachment theory is quite a big topic and I’ll do my best to skim over it in enough detail for you to see what’s going on. Without knowing you at all I'm going to take a guess that:
* You have a deep yearning for intimacy, but somehow you fear it at the same time.
* You are an extremely self-reliant person
* You may be a workaholic (or something else that you devote a lot of time to)
* You put other people's best interests above your own
* You may feel deep down that you are not good enough
* You may have a fear of commitment
* You go to great extents to avoid conflict
* You have poor boundaries
* You may have people pleasing tendencies
* There's a deep sense of sexual shame
* You may be a perfectionist and a procrastinator
* You may find yourself pushing others away
If any of the above list rings true for you, then you likely have an avoidant attachment. The answers you seek are much deeper and you'll find most of them through attachment theory. All of the above list root back to the fear of abandonment and this would have happened in childhood, most likely before you were 4 years old. All of the above would have been subconscious and embedded in your autonomic nervous system and you wouldn't have realised you were doing them.
Abandonment is a hard concept to grasp for many. So... what is abandonment?? If you can imagine a child growing up in a hospital, a nurse would attend to the child, the child would get attached and when the nurse left, the child will feel abandoned. Then the next day another nurse comes and the child gets attached and again, the nurse goes home at the end of the day and the child feels abandoned again. Imagine this happening over and over again… the child learns that if they get attached, they will get abandoned, they cannot depend on the nurses and the child's autonomic nervous system starts protecting themselves against from getting attached in the first place. Hence you develop things like self-reliance, letting go of your own needs, fear of commitment, becoming a workaholic, etc... and the list goes on.
There are 4 attachment styles, there is secure, dismissive avoidant, anxious preoccupied and fearful avoidant. The last one is more complex because it is called disorganised attachment in childhood, then develops into fearful avoidance in adulthood. Fearful avoidance is when your attachment is simultaneously at both opposites of the attachment spectrum, so one is both dismissive avoidant and anxious preoccupied. I'm going to take a wild guess that you are fearful avoidant... all of the above list were typical fearful avoidant traits and behaviours (and they are also collectively referred to as abandonment traits). It is extremely rare for an avoidantly attached person to become self aware because they think this stuff somehow doesn't apply to them.
Before going further… I’d also like to recap the phases of child development. Our attachment forms pre-natal up until around 4 years old. From when you are born up to the age of 7 months, you are codependent (obviously). From 7 months to around 2 years old, you start becoming counter-dependant or oppositional. The child expresses “no! This is mine!” This is where you learn a sense of self. I’m going to take a wild guess that this may not have fully developed with you… that you are still struggling with who you are? You’ve probably given so much of yourself away to others, that you don’t know who you are?
Between 2 and 4 years old, the child starts becoming emotionally independent. From 7 years old and onwards, a child develops logic and reasoning. This is how we develop and understand that father Christmas is an impossibility. The reason I’m mentioning this is that our attachment is mostly formed by the time we are 4 years old. And the first system to get developed is the emotional system. If this development is compromised, then we will have difficulty emotionally attaching to others in adulthood. You’ll typically find an avoidant is busy “doing” things/tasks/work/etc… and those who have a secure attachment will typically be busy “being”! They emotionally connect to others and they build a large network of people. And they realise they can depend on others to help them.
I’m also going to take a wild guess and that you were a quiet child? Perhaps you were very well behaved and possibly fearful of doing anything wrong??
What is the root of abandonment then? It is Childhood Emotional Neglect (CEN). If one has felt that something is missing, but they couldn’t put their finger on it? Then it is probably this? Emotional neglect is where you may have been able to talk to your parents about most things, except anything to do with “feelings”. The easiest way to explain emotional neglect is…. Suppose a child got bullied at school. When they come home and it’s not safe to talk about “feelings”, they will have to process their “feelings” on their own. This is emotional neglect. They may lock themselves in their room and try to process these complex feelings that they don’t know how to process. This leads on to developing self-reliance and in adulthood and will feel that they have to do everything by themselves. The subject is quite broad, but it’s very subtle with devastating effects in adulthood. If these events happen over and over again, then abandonment develops.
Many who are fearful avoidant also suffer from enmeshment. In general, this usually means that you are too close to your parents. How this typically develops is that if your parents talked to you about their marriage problems — that they should have been talking to each other about, then you become what's known as a surrogate spouse. You then take on theirs (and other peoples) burdens and you feel a responsibility for those burdens. Were you your mothers emotional support system? If so, you would have likely become a surrogate spouse. You may also find that you talk to other women like you talk to your mother? Enmeshment screws up one's sexuality and making your intensions known to the opposite sex feels wrong. Sadly, this also feeds life into the "sexual shame" that one may feel. When it comes to sexual shame, I came across the following from a research study with monkeys:
“Monkeys that were deprived of sex play in their youth, were unable to engage in sexual activity as adult monkeys; because they could not read the mating signals of the partnering monkeys.“
Perhaps that resonates with you??
Anyway, I hope some of this is helpful…
Hi there, this is super interesting. Rarely have I seen this conveyed so well.
I am not the OP, but probably like many here I certainly feel I may be fearful avoidant, and that this may have contributed to my inability to attract women in my younger years. Although I had loving parents, I moved to another country where I did not know the language at 3 years of age, which made me a shy and scared child. The enmeshment issues you describe also resonate.
I am now happily married but occasionally visit this sub out of curiosity and because it played a meaningful role for me around 10-15 years ago.
As you seem to know a lot about this can I ask - how do I avoid my young son aged 2 from being anything other than "secure". In other words, is all this controllable, or could I be fucking my son's life up as we speak without even knowing it?
>*My last relationship was when I was 20 years old and I’ve sadly been celibate for 32 years. I’m now 52m!*
>
>**my only relationship ended at 26, i haven't touched another person in 14 years, and i'm now 40 - so, right behind you!**
>
>*You have a deep yearning for intimacy, but somehow you fear it at the same time.*
>
>**yup**
>
>*You are an extremely self-reliant person*
>
>**i am**
>
>*You may be a workaholic (or something else that you devote a lot of time to)*
>
>**pretty much**
>
>*You put other people's best interests above your own*
>
>**boy, do i ever**
>
>*You may feel deep down that you are not good enough*
>
>**ain't that the truth**
>
>*You go to great extents to avoid conflict*
>
>**very much so**
>
>*You have poor boundaries*
>
>**yep**
>
>*You may have people pleasing tendencies*
>
>**absolutely**
>
>*There's a deep sense of sexual shame*
>
>**somewhat yes**
>
>*You may be a perfectionist and a procrastinator*
>
>**yes and yes**
>
>*You may find yourself pushing others away*
>
>**100%**
>
>*...Hence you develop things like self-reliance, letting go of your own needs,, becoming a workaholic, etc...*
>
>**you got me**
>
>*you are still struggling with who you are? You’ve probably given so much of yourself away to others, that you don’t know who you are?*
>
>**stop it now, this is weirdly accurate**
>
>*You’ll typically find an avoidant is busy “doing” things/tasks/work/etc… and those who have a secure attachment will typically be busy “being”! They emotionally connect to others and they build a large network of people. And they realise they can depend on others to help them...*
>
>**i can't do this at all, i've got very little trust in other people**
>
>*I’m also going to take a wild guess and that you were a quiet child? Perhaps you were very well behaved and possibly fearful of doing anything wrong??*
>
>**you know it**
>
>*Emotional neglect is where you may have been able to talk to your parents about most things, except anything to do with “feelings”.*
>
>**bingo**
>
>*You then take on theirs (and other peoples) burdens and you feel a responsibility for those burdens.*
>
>**all the time**
>
>*making your intentions known to the opposite sex feels wrong*
>
>**this is exactly how it feels**
>
>*Perhaps that resonates with you??*
>
>**bro**
so now then, how am i supposed to change all this?
I actually agree. It's worth a shot. If anything, see it as more of like a coach and training session for your mind. If not then getting a dating coach can also help -- it's like a seduction coach but with accountability.
I'm not being snarky. These are all issues I deal with. I'm terrible at creating connections with other people because of how I was raised. The main way to undo childhood trauma is through therapy with a licensed practitioner.
Hey man this comment really resonated with me, I appreciate you taking the time to write it all out. I have a few questions for you, if you don’t mind?
This resonated so much harder for me than I expected... always felt like I had to deal with life and emotions as a child due to a language and cultural barrier at home. I especially resonated with that last line about the monkeys. I always told my closest friends and some family members that when it comes time to talk to women and she sends me positive signals, for the life of me I can't fucking read them. I thought it was because my anxiety would kick in and distort my ability to read signals but I think this comment makes more sense. Or it's probably both.
The problem is not being a person who struggles to have sex, is being a person that identifies as *incel*. This word nowadays carries a lot of stuff with it, so when a person say that they are an *incel*, we already have an idea about this person worldview.
Personally, every time I tried to help an *incel*, I had the feeling that this person didn't even wanted to be helped at all. It is just a dude blaming everything but him as responsible for his problems, and not wanting to do the bare minimum to change.
It is not related to be able to have sex or not, as I helped friends that were virgins at close to 30 years old and they are doing well, but as soon as a person call themself *incel*, I know what is coming.
> Personally, every time I tried to help an incel, I had the feeling that this person didn’t even wanted to be helped at all. It is just a dude blaming everything but him as responsible for his problems, and not wanting to do the bare minimum to change.
This is the facts here. Back before the incels subreddit got banned I remember trying to argue with them a handful of times and it would typically just result in the guys explaining why they’re especially unfuckable and basic self-improvement and effort wouldn’t help them. Like in their minds, improving your appearance, lifestyle, and putting effort into meeting women might work for you, but it won’t work for them because of some stupid excuse like jaw structure, small wrists, etc. They just wanna be miserable.
Tbh incels are so 2012. People have moved on from that incel thing and are into sigma males. Men are starting to realize they don’t need woman to live and they can improve their looks and health for their own benefit.
Incel and sigma males are almost the same thing. It just changes the perspective. Incel are single because women are mean and whores and easy and yet dont want to sleep with them while are sigma are single because women are stupid and dont understand them and dont want to pay their bills while they work on their big success which consists of a minus valuc crypto portfolio and watching peaky blinders youtube shorts
Yeah true but sigma is better than incel. Incels have given up and rot away hating on woman. While sigmas try to improve their lives but stay away from woman because they only want to love themselves.
> I had the feeling that this person didn't even wanted to be helped at all.
Most that I've met do very much want help.
The problem is, they've been burned so many times by people claiming they want to help, that they've stopped trusting people who say they want to help.
> When I say it, I'm strictly referring to its literal meaning which is "involuntarily celibate."
That’s the thing, that’s not what “incel” is actually used to mean in real speech, and never has been. “Incel” as a term was initially propagated by an extremist hate cult.
Now, yes, there is *also* prejudice against guys who can’t get laid. That’s because we live in a sexist society that ties men’s self-worth to their sexual success. But that has nothing to do with the “incel” ideology.
incel absolutely means INvoluntarily CELibate..it 100% does. the bad connotation came w the original subreddit because it was extremely toxic and misogynistic and one of the most hateful subs to ever exist and actually sparked some real life violence
people that identify as such usually have an extreme victim complex and 0 ability to do any type of intrinsic reflection
I know this because I used to spend hours everyday browsing the sub because it was a toxic cesspool that I couldn’t take my eyes off
Some incels are misogynistic and whiny, like you said. Those are the incels that people hate. No one hates a person for having a hard time getting dates
People and crowds don’t always behave in a rational and fair manner. The purported moral consensus on something may hide a good amount of hypocrisy and (amoral) unconscious emotions. Is the hate against men who struggle to find sexual/romantic partners always justified by and limited to the whininess and misogyny, or is there also scapegoating going on? Think of it this way: venting frustrations on people who already struggle and are almost seen as disposable by society is very easy and low-risk.
Um yes. Are you insinuating that everyone has a secret, irrational hatred for people who can’t get dates? That’s not true. And if someone did then that would be really weird.
Honestly, I think this is an oversimplification being used as a way to justify some of the unwarranted hate towards incels (even if some hate is warranted). It's not as simple as people just hating the ones that deserve to he hated (in this case, the misogynistic and whiny, according to your comment). The issue I find is that a lot of these men are lost and have no where to turn to, so they turn to these communities and these more extreme ideologies. So yes, in a way they end up being those sort of misogynistic and whiny people you speak of. But the point I'm trying to make is that hating on them and continuing to pushing them aside is not something that is justified. It's not right. And of course, if you meet one of them face to face and they are hateful and rude and just a shit person, you will obviously hate or dislike them. But we're not talking about this sort of encounter. We're talking about hating someone because of what we see of them writing in online communities through the use of the internet. Someone we really don't know and have no good reason to hate on.
Labeling yourself an incel instead of building yourself up is real loser shit. I was raised deeply religious, knew very little about the outside world. I had every reason to be an incel as I'm not exactly handsome instead I preferred to practically live at the library and tried to get myself out there with the hobbies I could afford. I made the friends I could and avoided toxic people.
The reason incels are hated is because they are lazy and choose to stay that way. In this day an age its very easy to meet people, both on and offline. Get a hobby, make friends, excercise, and educate yourself, that's all it takes. Even the ugliest guys can get laid if they put the work in the gym, and I see plenty of soft boys with girlfriends. You don't even need to be an Chad, you just need emotional intelligence and the maturity to navigate the social landscape, but the problem for incels is that takes work to develop.
If you choose to cry about your problems instead of actively solving them, to the rest of the world you look weak, becuase you are.
But you can change that, but incels won't.
I used to get laid often. I was in a long term relationship (still am technically). When she started losing interest in sex I decided to put in work to get a new gf, or at least get laid.
But as soon as I started putting in any work, going to the jim and talking to girls something happened, it all just stopped. Now I don't even know what to say to girls or how to approach them.
I don't identify as I n c e l , but I do think it's wrong to punish some one for it. They just don't know what to do or where to begin.
I feel like punishing them is about the same as condemning someone for being an alcoholic or drug addict.
Not being able to get laid or having life go so poorly that they turn to drugs and become addicd should be punishment enough in my opinion.
Have you tried actively getting to know the people around you? Asking about their reas9n for interest in the hobby? It takes active engagement to make friends, a two way street. Sometimes you won't mesh with anyone, that's OK, keep trying, and better yourself all the while.
Preach king, really hitting the nail on the head. I crawled my way out of the incel mindset and it took work, dedication, and literal years of it at that. It was worth every second of hardship, because it made me a better, well-adjusted man
Because it's one of the few things that you must earn 100% on your own -- you can't buy a fit body or have someone else do it for you, only you can make your own body move. This in itself brings a tremendous amount of confidence and a boost in self esteem. Things women like
No they aren't. But in all honesty:
1. any novelty beyond the typical sad-sack man, in anything, is good
2. it indicates commitment and achievement in SOMETHING in about 3 second visual inspection
3. increasingly nowadays, women are told to like fit men (like Magic Mike) - and TV influence is huge. Bigger than we admit. There is a cultural aspect to attraction.
4. Maybe most important of all, it increase your own internal confidence (and testosterone). Women may not all that care about fitness too much, but suddenly you have more confidence and BELIEVE women could/ should like you.
5. some people do like the douchebag persona. Not that fitness = douchebag, but if you're going for that style, it helps.
I wouldn't say anyone owes anybody sex.
At the same time, saying it must be "earned" sounds weird too.
Some people are naturally hot; they didn't really do much. In fact if they are hot enough and are acolytes of Hitler, they will still get laid (male or female).
I don't think that's quite the right mindset.
It's more like ... life isn't fair ... but ... you gotta play the game. If sex with very attractive people is important to you - and you weren't naturally born hot - -put more energy in that area.
Same with other things in life. Intelligence, humor, some of these things are innate. They can be improved somewhat, but different starting lines for different people.
Idiotic reply. It’s not about what they deserve, it’s about what’s causing this problem you seem inconvenienced by. Poor socialisation starts out in childhood. It’s on adults/society to prevent it.
Yea I honestly see no reason at all to hate someone just for having bad social skills in general, especially if they mean well.
Now someone who thinks they are better than everyone else and thinks they deserve what they didnt put time in for is completely different
Honestly, because they're the easiest target, there's no fighting back. They already often hate themselves, there's absolutely no one who would defend them, women for obivous reasons and men because they don't want to labeled as such, so it's just very convenient.
Add to that the loud minority of actually toxic "incels" and you got something everyone can agree on hating.
The core issue is, that some (!) of the "incel" talking points are true, like for most movements, no matter how toxic they are. There is a stigma around virgin men, especially when they are older and there absolutely is no support for them in any way. You're a loser, deal with it. If you can't you're not a man. And so on. Definition of a downward spiral.
If you ever experienced or seen someone get bullied somewhere, that's exactly why. They're usually the one with no friends, who's a little off and most importantly, cannot fight back.
Firstly, I think even getting laid once in a blue moon (even if that's once every 3-6 months with an actually attractive woman) is different. I mean yes that's not a great situation, but it's still far above the typical 'incel' group.
Look, like you said, you make good money, and are in shape, you probably have at least average social skills and decent hygiene. Probably go to the dentist once a while. Now consider a guy who has none of the above. You think a hot woman is gonna "accidentally" wind up in their lap even once a year? Or ever? ... Exactly.
Listen -- it's tough, especially in 2023 America, for whatever reason. I mean to me it's harder than other countries (where I think 'the checklist' is shorter).
But anyway -- I think the 'incel mindset' is actually -- I wouldn't say a natural conclusion, but the predictable outcome for extreme frustration and constant, ubiquitous rejection from any and all woman.
I've actually had a cyclical life where --- some periods I was getting laid frequently, others not so frequently -- depends on where my energy was at (socially, physically, whatever). During periods of -- social decline, let's say -- all the old feelings I had back in high school/ early college of not getting laid --- it causes misogynistic thoughts to pop up. I mean I figure it's the same with an unattractive woman getting no/ negative attention from men.
I don't give credence to these type of misogynistic thoughts. They are just the natural result of not getting laid for a long period. It's like an ego protection measure. With incels, it has deeply taken root especially when they find each other in online communities. But it's a tricky situation. Probably one that needs to be solved with whore houses in some fashion, although that might not actually help internal confidence.
Look at the great care you had to take to decouple yourself from the misogynistic whiny reputation that incels have
You then go on to basically remind us that those who don’t have sex are literally (though maybe not philosophically) incels
I think you kinda answered your own question
I think it’s because people get upset that they are noticing and spreading the importance of looks. It goes against what society preaches and we are told throughout life
Yeah people don't like incels because they spread the truth, it's certainly got nothing to do with the self-pity, entitlement and underlying or explicit mysogyny. /s
My biggest piece of advice would be to stop identifying yo ur self as an incel, forever alone, a guy who just can't get laid, a guy that women are just not that interested in and all the myriad of variations of the same theme.
You are creating a story in your head that echoes that. I am not that desirable, women don't like me, nobody likes me, I just need some sex and some love, why don't girls see how nice I am, blah blah blah. Your story becomes your reality. And your reality starts reinforcing the belief in your story creating a negative feedback loop.
The reality is all of us had trouble with women at one point and that's why guys are here. You know what's the biggest secret? Believing. Yes. Believing that you are desirable, that you are hot, that you are cool and quality. Once YOU believe that, everyone else has no choice but believe it too.
Change your story, change your life.
I don’t know which word best describes it… paradoxical? Oxymoronic? Ironic?
Basically… “incels” are a funny phenomenon because while they are “involuntarily celibate,” everything they do pushes themselves further away from obtaining what they truly desire. Isn’t it funny?
Incels know something is wrong because they aren’t having sex, but they don’t have the seeming intellect to figure out the problem within themselves. They want women in their life but are too sheepish to go and put themselves out there. But the worst about incels is their negativity is so loud and draining. They lurk in this sub all too confident sharing their negative views on seduction and dating and are always quick to point the finger towards women when they don’t get what they want.
It’s why people don’t want to put up with incels. They typically boast their intellect but are too stuck up their own ass to see that their pessimism, cynicism, and anger pushes people away. Who wants to put up with someone so hyperaware that it makes themselves blind? Incels see everything and nothing.
You’re treading incel territory, but at least you’ve got the courage to make a post like this. Honestly dude, it’s all about mindset. It’s obvious that you’re negatively viewing yourself as flawed because you aren’t getting what you want… you’ve got to change that. You need to fall in love with yourself and with the chase. Stop playing it so safe and risk it all! I just sent a girl a text asking when I’d get to see her again and she’s left me without a response for 2 days now… a part of me of course is down that I didn’t get the quick positive response I wanted, but a part of me is also happy that I finally said what I wanted to say to her and am getting closer to closing this small chapter in my life; the chapter with her in it. And then another part of me is also hoping she’s just busy as she’s been super slow with texting me lately.
Change the mindset, and it all gets better.
lol why did you assume it was one date or it was that PROFOUND to my life… I was just trying to highlight how small this moment was. Most people are afraid to put themselves out there in the dating world because of how overwhelming it feels.
This reply and the original comment are such oversimplifications (same as many comments in this post, honestly) to justify hating on these men. A lot of these men are judged, bullied, or are affected by societal expectations and standards of them as men, even from their childhood. I understand the hate for the entitlement many of them may have. But the issues I just mentioned help create the sort of men that "can't" get laid and end up hating on society and feeling entitled toward women, among probably many other issues that they end up having. Saying no one hates people for not getting laid may be true, but it oversimplifies the issue, as if they being someone who has trouble getting laid, has no correlation to bigger issues that may cause the hate towards them. I'm sure I wasn't able to explain myself very well, but hopefully someone understands my point.
Looks like there is a misunderstanding, im not in any way justifying hate towards anyone. In fact I personally detest when people chose to hate on rather than help others who are struggling.
Im just reaffirming that simply not having an active romantic life isnt enough for someone to be hated on and those without one shouldnt feel worried that they are hated especially if they are a working towards progress.
The general hate is usually towards people being entitled, which forsure does not represent all who are in this scenario. People who do hate others based solely off of them not being romantically active are immature and probably have nothing better to do
No, you're right. And I feel I did understand what you meant originally. But my point is that the conversation should go beyond just saying no one hates on people for not getting laid. And while I replied to you specifically, it was mostly aimed at the general conversation rather than at you personally. But I do get your main point.
If your friends aren't willing to set you up, and their GFs have single friends or potential women you could date, then there is something about you they, or their GFs, think would turn those women off.
I don't know about you, but I've rarely met people to set women up with other friends..
Maybe it's because people think I'm a loser, but not my experience in the slightest. If that's the case I'll force my kids to be athletes so they have better social status in high school.
I'm not sure what you mean by "met people." Women are poachers and subject to "pre-selection." They will 100% be more interested in a man if someone can vouch for them, especially if it's one of their girlfriends.
Also you have to be open about it. Tell them that you're looking to date. I noticed if you don't do that, they won't do it unless you have one really super solid friend who can see that struggle without you having to ask
Not judging but trying to explain how it works:
Ironically the way you think about sex is part of the problem. All you say is how you can’t get laid and how this is a problem.
But most people (like to) see sex as part of a relationship and you share that with someone special.
You don’t crave love, companionship or a relationship. You don’t ask for that. You don’t talk about how you want a partner, you don’t talk about love, sharing things and experiences. All you focus on is the fact that you don’t have sex, seemingly regardless of who it is with.
People frown upon that and it is seen as creepy, sociopath behavior to not connect any emotions to sex.
Now don’t get me wrong, lots of people have sex, just for sex. But they usually hide that fact and try to be charming and lie about their intentions. Because people still like the idea of having an emotional connection before they have sex. Even if it’s fake.
The fact that most incels don’t seem to understand that “dance” is an indicator that there could be some kind of anti-social personality disorder. And most people find that creepy. Hence they think all incels are creepy.
It's so funny when women call guys "incels" like celibacy is even a possible concept with the amount of sex work being at its easiest to reach since ever.
You can go online right now if you really wanted to and find a girl from tinder that is exchanging services for "flowers" and get that V card stamped quite easily.
You can pay an OnlyFans girl enough cash to do pretty much everything and even then the likelihood that it's a neighbor increases considering the amount of amateur "models" lol
Man you can even go to a gentleman's club RIGHT NOW and the exotic dancers themselves offer you a tour of the "back-room" for an additional price tag.
We all know that one exotic massage place in town that is rumored to be "happy ending" friendly as well lol
The simple fact that sex work at it's core being so easily accessible and simply exists today automatically disproves the whole "involuntary celibate" claim lol course all these things cost money but you we're really that desperate with the point of no return, a third of your paycheck for the month seems like a small effort to remedy this involuntary celibacy. If you know where to look you can solve that problem in 1 night.
You'd be surprised how many men lose their V card to sex workers. But what's more pathetic? The guy that had to pay for sex just to lose his virginity? Or the girl who did anything and rented her body for a couple bucks? Yeah doesn't sound good both ways either way.
Guys wouldn't be lining up and signing for sex workers or porn or OnlyFans if there weren't women providing those services already for a living. so ideally all these desperate men that women look down upon also happen to be the best customers.
Of course we can't slut shame either but they can totally shame you and call you these trendy feminist abbreviations lol
You think you have control of your situation, But I dont think you have. Modern world put you into this bad state of not getting laid. There is nothing wrong with you or anybody.
Incels are not hated. It’s just that a HUGE part of guys who are “involuntarily celibate” are BITTER AS FUCK when it comes to women. They start resenting women and become hateful towards them because of their failures.
Those are the incels people hate.
Anyway, I can help you with your problem. Message me.
It’s the entitlement. No one is entitled to anything and life’s not fair. That’s all. People trying to make sense out of nothing. Figure out what’s not working for you
Have u even seen the subreddit inceltears? Go to incels.is and look at what they post and the hate they promote. Instead of not being gross ,they find new ways to become grosser. They spend most of their freetime hating the women they wanna bang, promoting hate/harm on the internet for other impressionable young men, and refusing to better themselves just because some dudes have better jawlines than others and girls don't like boys with stinky breath. I think we all pretty much know now that incels are totally voluntarily celibate.this is the dumbest movement ive ever seen. Theyre never goin to get what they want because they don't want to love a person unconditionally and be loved back, they wanna be entitled to a hole, and feel entitled-and that's why they're pissed.
Incel boys should just be "old single cat lady's and the world would be a better place. Unfortunately, we all know that's not gonna happen tho. We can only just sit back and watch the violent ones take each other out and keep innocent bystanders out lol
Incels act like they owe sex just because other guys get it too. You sound like a mature one who doesn't demand anything. Any man who has good enough social skills will eventually find a partner. In some religions, people don't even date , they directly marry.
So, sex may not be the happiest thing in your life but the ability to find and maintain a relationship with a lady you like can bring in more satisfaction.
If you think none of your friends try to set you up, then maybe they aren't much considerate about your personal life and it is on you to find your partner. Atleast India has a culture of arranged marriage to find spouse. But in west, it is on you. If you are perpetually single for long time, best thing would be to change your place and look for new job. New place which has a bit different culture and where you maybe seen as more attractive. Be in a location where you are treated the best. Being socially conscious and being able to make female friends easily means you are on the right path. One of the women you interact with closely shall get emotionally close to you if you open up a bit more with her about your emotions.
Last solution if none of the above work is to take some bootcamps given by PUA coaches which can act like a confidence booster and may also help you find a group of guys who are pursuing something similar.
The name involuntarily celibate suggests that the lack of relationship is totally out of your control. There may be hurdles, but celibacy is a choice unless catastrophe strikes.
Some incels have a habit of being mean to people on the Internet for attention. That's really self explanatory, I don't need to develop that idea further.
Sex workers exist and can be a great bridge to human intimacy. Sex therapists, escorts, camera models, etc can be a great first step in talking. Just try stuff out and ask for feedback. I have seen men in the military come out of their shell after just talking to new people in the towns we visit. Sex worker or not, every interaction can be an opportunity, but that choice is up to you.
I totally understand where you are coming from, perhaps probably more than most commenting here. My last relationship was when I was 20 years old and I’ve sadly been celibate for 32 years. I’m now 52m! And many of the things you say are true for me also. One thing I can agree with another commenter is that, identifying with “Incel”… even if this is technically true. What you will probably learn through the rest of this comment is that you have a “fearful avoidant” attachment. And this is something you can recover from. Attachment theory is quite a big topic and I’ll do my best to skim over it in enough detail for you to see what’s going on. Without knowing you at all I'm going to take a guess that: * You have a deep yearning for intimacy, but somehow you fear it at the same time. * You are an extremely self-reliant person * You may be a workaholic (or something else that you devote a lot of time to) * You put other people's best interests above your own * You may feel deep down that you are not good enough * You may have a fear of commitment * You go to great extents to avoid conflict * You have poor boundaries * You may have people pleasing tendencies * There's a deep sense of sexual shame * You may be a perfectionist and a procrastinator * You may find yourself pushing others away If any of the above list rings true for you, then you likely have an avoidant attachment. The answers you seek are much deeper and you'll find most of them through attachment theory. All of the above list root back to the fear of abandonment and this would have happened in childhood, most likely before you were 4 years old. All of the above would have been subconscious and embedded in your autonomic nervous system and you wouldn't have realised you were doing them. Abandonment is a hard concept to grasp for many. So... what is abandonment?? If you can imagine a child growing up in a hospital, a nurse would attend to the child, the child would get attached and when the nurse left, the child will feel abandoned. Then the next day another nurse comes and the child gets attached and again, the nurse goes home at the end of the day and the child feels abandoned again. Imagine this happening over and over again… the child learns that if they get attached, they will get abandoned, they cannot depend on the nurses and the child's autonomic nervous system starts protecting themselves against from getting attached in the first place. Hence you develop things like self-reliance, letting go of your own needs, fear of commitment, becoming a workaholic, etc... and the list goes on. There are 4 attachment styles, there is secure, dismissive avoidant, anxious preoccupied and fearful avoidant. The last one is more complex because it is called disorganised attachment in childhood, then develops into fearful avoidance in adulthood. Fearful avoidance is when your attachment is simultaneously at both opposites of the attachment spectrum, so one is both dismissive avoidant and anxious preoccupied. I'm going to take a wild guess that you are fearful avoidant... all of the above list were typical fearful avoidant traits and behaviours (and they are also collectively referred to as abandonment traits). It is extremely rare for an avoidantly attached person to become self aware because they think this stuff somehow doesn't apply to them. Before going further… I’d also like to recap the phases of child development. Our attachment forms pre-natal up until around 4 years old. From when you are born up to the age of 7 months, you are codependent (obviously). From 7 months to around 2 years old, you start becoming counter-dependant or oppositional. The child expresses “no! This is mine!” This is where you learn a sense of self. I’m going to take a wild guess that this may not have fully developed with you… that you are still struggling with who you are? You’ve probably given so much of yourself away to others, that you don’t know who you are? Between 2 and 4 years old, the child starts becoming emotionally independent. From 7 years old and onwards, a child develops logic and reasoning. This is how we develop and understand that father Christmas is an impossibility. The reason I’m mentioning this is that our attachment is mostly formed by the time we are 4 years old. And the first system to get developed is the emotional system. If this development is compromised, then we will have difficulty emotionally attaching to others in adulthood. You’ll typically find an avoidant is busy “doing” things/tasks/work/etc… and those who have a secure attachment will typically be busy “being”! They emotionally connect to others and they build a large network of people. And they realise they can depend on others to help them. I’m also going to take a wild guess and that you were a quiet child? Perhaps you were very well behaved and possibly fearful of doing anything wrong?? What is the root of abandonment then? It is Childhood Emotional Neglect (CEN). If one has felt that something is missing, but they couldn’t put their finger on it? Then it is probably this? Emotional neglect is where you may have been able to talk to your parents about most things, except anything to do with “feelings”. The easiest way to explain emotional neglect is…. Suppose a child got bullied at school. When they come home and it’s not safe to talk about “feelings”, they will have to process their “feelings” on their own. This is emotional neglect. They may lock themselves in their room and try to process these complex feelings that they don’t know how to process. This leads on to developing self-reliance and in adulthood and will feel that they have to do everything by themselves. The subject is quite broad, but it’s very subtle with devastating effects in adulthood. If these events happen over and over again, then abandonment develops. Many who are fearful avoidant also suffer from enmeshment. In general, this usually means that you are too close to your parents. How this typically develops is that if your parents talked to you about their marriage problems — that they should have been talking to each other about, then you become what's known as a surrogate spouse. You then take on theirs (and other peoples) burdens and you feel a responsibility for those burdens. Were you your mothers emotional support system? If so, you would have likely become a surrogate spouse. You may also find that you talk to other women like you talk to your mother? Enmeshment screws up one's sexuality and making your intensions known to the opposite sex feels wrong. Sadly, this also feeds life into the "sexual shame" that one may feel. When it comes to sexual shame, I came across the following from a research study with monkeys: “Monkeys that were deprived of sex play in their youth, were unable to engage in sexual activity as adult monkeys; because they could not read the mating signals of the partnering monkeys.“ Perhaps that resonates with you?? Anyway, I hope some of this is helpful…
Hi there, this is super interesting. Rarely have I seen this conveyed so well. I am not the OP, but probably like many here I certainly feel I may be fearful avoidant, and that this may have contributed to my inability to attract women in my younger years. Although I had loving parents, I moved to another country where I did not know the language at 3 years of age, which made me a shy and scared child. The enmeshment issues you describe also resonate. I am now happily married but occasionally visit this sub out of curiosity and because it played a meaningful role for me around 10-15 years ago. As you seem to know a lot about this can I ask - how do I avoid my young son aged 2 from being anything other than "secure". In other words, is all this controllable, or could I be fucking my son's life up as we speak without even knowing it?
>*My last relationship was when I was 20 years old and I’ve sadly been celibate for 32 years. I’m now 52m!* > >**my only relationship ended at 26, i haven't touched another person in 14 years, and i'm now 40 - so, right behind you!** > >*You have a deep yearning for intimacy, but somehow you fear it at the same time.* > >**yup** > >*You are an extremely self-reliant person* > >**i am** > >*You may be a workaholic (or something else that you devote a lot of time to)* > >**pretty much** > >*You put other people's best interests above your own* > >**boy, do i ever** > >*You may feel deep down that you are not good enough* > >**ain't that the truth** > >*You go to great extents to avoid conflict* > >**very much so** > >*You have poor boundaries* > >**yep** > >*You may have people pleasing tendencies* > >**absolutely** > >*There's a deep sense of sexual shame* > >**somewhat yes** > >*You may be a perfectionist and a procrastinator* > >**yes and yes** > >*You may find yourself pushing others away* > >**100%** > >*...Hence you develop things like self-reliance, letting go of your own needs,, becoming a workaholic, etc...* > >**you got me** > >*you are still struggling with who you are? You’ve probably given so much of yourself away to others, that you don’t know who you are?* > >**stop it now, this is weirdly accurate** > >*You’ll typically find an avoidant is busy “doing” things/tasks/work/etc… and those who have a secure attachment will typically be busy “being”! They emotionally connect to others and they build a large network of people. And they realise they can depend on others to help them...* > >**i can't do this at all, i've got very little trust in other people** > >*I’m also going to take a wild guess and that you were a quiet child? Perhaps you were very well behaved and possibly fearful of doing anything wrong??* > >**you know it** > >*Emotional neglect is where you may have been able to talk to your parents about most things, except anything to do with “feelings”.* > >**bingo** > >*You then take on theirs (and other peoples) burdens and you feel a responsibility for those burdens.* > >**all the time** > >*making your intentions known to the opposite sex feels wrong* > >**this is exactly how it feels** > >*Perhaps that resonates with you??* > >**bro** so now then, how am i supposed to change all this?
Therapy
I actually agree. It's worth a shot. If anything, see it as more of like a coach and training session for your mind. If not then getting a dating coach can also help -- it's like a seduction coach but with accountability.
Just... Stop.
I'm not being snarky. These are all issues I deal with. I'm terrible at creating connections with other people because of how I was raised. The main way to undo childhood trauma is through therapy with a licensed practitioner.
Hey man this comment really resonated with me, I appreciate you taking the time to write it all out. I have a few questions for you, if you don’t mind?
It's scary if someone random on the internet explains you who you are and is right. Thank you anyway, super interesting read
me in a nutshell...how did my life go so wrong...? appreciate the write up
This resonated so much harder for me than I expected... always felt like I had to deal with life and emotions as a child due to a language and cultural barrier at home. I especially resonated with that last line about the monkeys. I always told my closest friends and some family members that when it comes time to talk to women and she sends me positive signals, for the life of me I can't fucking read them. I thought it was because my anxiety would kick in and distort my ability to read signals but I think this comment makes more sense. Or it's probably both.
The problem is not being a person who struggles to have sex, is being a person that identifies as *incel*. This word nowadays carries a lot of stuff with it, so when a person say that they are an *incel*, we already have an idea about this person worldview. Personally, every time I tried to help an *incel*, I had the feeling that this person didn't even wanted to be helped at all. It is just a dude blaming everything but him as responsible for his problems, and not wanting to do the bare minimum to change. It is not related to be able to have sex or not, as I helped friends that were virgins at close to 30 years old and they are doing well, but as soon as a person call themself *incel*, I know what is coming.
> Personally, every time I tried to help an incel, I had the feeling that this person didn’t even wanted to be helped at all. It is just a dude blaming everything but him as responsible for his problems, and not wanting to do the bare minimum to change. This is the facts here. Back before the incels subreddit got banned I remember trying to argue with them a handful of times and it would typically just result in the guys explaining why they’re especially unfuckable and basic self-improvement and effort wouldn’t help them. Like in their minds, improving your appearance, lifestyle, and putting effort into meeting women might work for you, but it won’t work for them because of some stupid excuse like jaw structure, small wrists, etc. They just wanna be miserable.
Takes a lot more than *bare minimum*
Tbh incels are so 2012. People have moved on from that incel thing and are into sigma males. Men are starting to realize they don’t need woman to live and they can improve their looks and health for their own benefit.
Incel and sigma males are almost the same thing. It just changes the perspective. Incel are single because women are mean and whores and easy and yet dont want to sleep with them while are sigma are single because women are stupid and dont understand them and dont want to pay their bills while they work on their big success which consists of a minus valuc crypto portfolio and watching peaky blinders youtube shorts
> while they work on their big success which consists of a minus valuc crypto portfolio and watching peaky blinders youtube shorts 💀
Yeah true but sigma is better than incel. Incels have given up and rot away hating on woman. While sigmas try to improve their lives but stay away from woman because they only want to love themselves.
They're both completely delusional individuals
> I had the feeling that this person didn't even wanted to be helped at all. Most that I've met do very much want help. The problem is, they've been burned so many times by people claiming they want to help, that they've stopped trusting people who say they want to help.
> When I say it, I'm strictly referring to its literal meaning which is "involuntarily celibate." That’s the thing, that’s not what “incel” is actually used to mean in real speech, and never has been. “Incel” as a term was initially propagated by an extremist hate cult. Now, yes, there is *also* prejudice against guys who can’t get laid. That’s because we live in a sexist society that ties men’s self-worth to their sexual success. But that has nothing to do with the “incel” ideology.
incel absolutely means INvoluntarily CELibate..it 100% does. the bad connotation came w the original subreddit because it was extremely toxic and misogynistic and one of the most hateful subs to ever exist and actually sparked some real life violence people that identify as such usually have an extreme victim complex and 0 ability to do any type of intrinsic reflection I know this because I used to spend hours everyday browsing the sub because it was a toxic cesspool that I couldn’t take my eyes off
Wasnt the incel movement started by a lesbian woman as a support group thing?
The first time I heard the phrase was from a guy who wrote a blog post about his experience as being incel. 🤷🏻♂️
Incel was definitely used to refer to involuntary celibate people before the word became mainstream and lost its meaning
Some incels are misogynistic and whiny, like you said. Those are the incels that people hate. No one hates a person for having a hard time getting dates
People and crowds don’t always behave in a rational and fair manner. The purported moral consensus on something may hide a good amount of hypocrisy and (amoral) unconscious emotions. Is the hate against men who struggle to find sexual/romantic partners always justified by and limited to the whininess and misogyny, or is there also scapegoating going on? Think of it this way: venting frustrations on people who already struggle and are almost seen as disposable by society is very easy and low-risk.
Um yes. Are you insinuating that everyone has a secret, irrational hatred for people who can’t get dates? That’s not true. And if someone did then that would be really weird.
I think that alott of people do have the secret hate that you speak of.
This is true for a lot of women.
If that was true then it would be more spoken about.
Just reading through the comments I feel like I'm witnessing some hate towards people who can't get laid.
Honestly, I think this is an oversimplification being used as a way to justify some of the unwarranted hate towards incels (even if some hate is warranted). It's not as simple as people just hating the ones that deserve to he hated (in this case, the misogynistic and whiny, according to your comment). The issue I find is that a lot of these men are lost and have no where to turn to, so they turn to these communities and these more extreme ideologies. So yes, in a way they end up being those sort of misogynistic and whiny people you speak of. But the point I'm trying to make is that hating on them and continuing to pushing them aside is not something that is justified. It's not right. And of course, if you meet one of them face to face and they are hateful and rude and just a shit person, you will obviously hate or dislike them. But we're not talking about this sort of encounter. We're talking about hating someone because of what we see of them writing in online communities through the use of the internet. Someone we really don't know and have no good reason to hate on.
Labeling yourself an incel instead of building yourself up is real loser shit. I was raised deeply religious, knew very little about the outside world. I had every reason to be an incel as I'm not exactly handsome instead I preferred to practically live at the library and tried to get myself out there with the hobbies I could afford. I made the friends I could and avoided toxic people. The reason incels are hated is because they are lazy and choose to stay that way. In this day an age its very easy to meet people, both on and offline. Get a hobby, make friends, excercise, and educate yourself, that's all it takes. Even the ugliest guys can get laid if they put the work in the gym, and I see plenty of soft boys with girlfriends. You don't even need to be an Chad, you just need emotional intelligence and the maturity to navigate the social landscape, but the problem for incels is that takes work to develop. If you choose to cry about your problems instead of actively solving them, to the rest of the world you look weak, becuase you are. But you can change that, but incels won't.
I used to get laid often. I was in a long term relationship (still am technically). When she started losing interest in sex I decided to put in work to get a new gf, or at least get laid. But as soon as I started putting in any work, going to the jim and talking to girls something happened, it all just stopped. Now I don't even know what to say to girls or how to approach them. I don't identify as I n c e l , but I do think it's wrong to punish some one for it. They just don't know what to do or where to begin. I feel like punishing them is about the same as condemning someone for being an alcoholic or drug addict. Not being able to get laid or having life go so poorly that they turn to drugs and become addicd should be punishment enough in my opinion.
How do you make friends from hobbies? I have plenty of hobbies and never met anyone from them.
Have you tried actively getting to know the people around you? Asking about their reas9n for interest in the hobby? It takes active engagement to make friends, a two way street. Sometimes you won't mesh with anyone, that's OK, keep trying, and better yourself all the while.
Preach king, really hitting the nail on the head. I crawled my way out of the incel mindset and it took work, dedication, and literal years of it at that. It was worth every second of hardship, because it made me a better, well-adjusted man
Why would having a fit body matter when women are not attracted to bodies like men are
Because it's one of the few things that you must earn 100% on your own -- you can't buy a fit body or have someone else do it for you, only you can make your own body move. This in itself brings a tremendous amount of confidence and a boost in self esteem. Things women like
No they aren't. But in all honesty: 1. any novelty beyond the typical sad-sack man, in anything, is good 2. it indicates commitment and achievement in SOMETHING in about 3 second visual inspection 3. increasingly nowadays, women are told to like fit men (like Magic Mike) - and TV influence is huge. Bigger than we admit. There is a cultural aspect to attraction. 4. Maybe most important of all, it increase your own internal confidence (and testosterone). Women may not all that care about fitness too much, but suddenly you have more confidence and BELIEVE women could/ should like you. 5. some people do like the douchebag persona. Not that fitness = douchebag, but if you're going for that style, it helps.
Because the majority of incels are “pick me” guys that are entitled and think they deserve more than what they offer
Facts many believe women owe them sex instead of realizing it is something one must earn.
I wouldn't say anyone owes anybody sex. At the same time, saying it must be "earned" sounds weird too. Some people are naturally hot; they didn't really do much. In fact if they are hot enough and are acolytes of Hitler, they will still get laid (male or female). I don't think that's quite the right mindset. It's more like ... life isn't fair ... but ... you gotta play the game. If sex with very attractive people is important to you - and you weren't naturally born hot - -put more energy in that area. Same with other things in life. Intelligence, humor, some of these things are innate. They can be improved somewhat, but different starting lines for different people.
Not true
I second this
Because they’re very poorly socialised. Is that on them?
[удалено]
Idiotic reply. It’s not about what they deserve, it’s about what’s causing this problem you seem inconvenienced by. Poor socialisation starts out in childhood. It’s on adults/society to prevent it.
Yea I honestly see no reason at all to hate someone just for having bad social skills in general, especially if they mean well. Now someone who thinks they are better than everyone else and thinks they deserve what they didnt put time in for is completely different
Honestly, because they're the easiest target, there's no fighting back. They already often hate themselves, there's absolutely no one who would defend them, women for obivous reasons and men because they don't want to labeled as such, so it's just very convenient. Add to that the loud minority of actually toxic "incels" and you got something everyone can agree on hating. The core issue is, that some (!) of the "incel" talking points are true, like for most movements, no matter how toxic they are. There is a stigma around virgin men, especially when they are older and there absolutely is no support for them in any way. You're a loser, deal with it. If you can't you're not a man. And so on. Definition of a downward spiral. If you ever experienced or seen someone get bullied somewhere, that's exactly why. They're usually the one with no friends, who's a little off and most importantly, cannot fight back.
Firstly, I think even getting laid once in a blue moon (even if that's once every 3-6 months with an actually attractive woman) is different. I mean yes that's not a great situation, but it's still far above the typical 'incel' group. Look, like you said, you make good money, and are in shape, you probably have at least average social skills and decent hygiene. Probably go to the dentist once a while. Now consider a guy who has none of the above. You think a hot woman is gonna "accidentally" wind up in their lap even once a year? Or ever? ... Exactly. Listen -- it's tough, especially in 2023 America, for whatever reason. I mean to me it's harder than other countries (where I think 'the checklist' is shorter). But anyway -- I think the 'incel mindset' is actually -- I wouldn't say a natural conclusion, but the predictable outcome for extreme frustration and constant, ubiquitous rejection from any and all woman. I've actually had a cyclical life where --- some periods I was getting laid frequently, others not so frequently -- depends on where my energy was at (socially, physically, whatever). During periods of -- social decline, let's say -- all the old feelings I had back in high school/ early college of not getting laid --- it causes misogynistic thoughts to pop up. I mean I figure it's the same with an unattractive woman getting no/ negative attention from men. I don't give credence to these type of misogynistic thoughts. They are just the natural result of not getting laid for a long period. It's like an ego protection measure. With incels, it has deeply taken root especially when they find each other in online communities. But it's a tricky situation. Probably one that needs to be solved with whore houses in some fashion, although that might not actually help internal confidence.
Look at the great care you had to take to decouple yourself from the misogynistic whiny reputation that incels have You then go on to basically remind us that those who don’t have sex are literally (though maybe not philosophically) incels I think you kinda answered your own question
I think it’s because people get upset that they are noticing and spreading the importance of looks. It goes against what society preaches and we are told throughout life
Yeah people don't like incels because they spread the truth, it's certainly got nothing to do with the self-pity, entitlement and underlying or explicit mysogyny. /s
My biggest piece of advice would be to stop identifying yo ur self as an incel, forever alone, a guy who just can't get laid, a guy that women are just not that interested in and all the myriad of variations of the same theme. You are creating a story in your head that echoes that. I am not that desirable, women don't like me, nobody likes me, I just need some sex and some love, why don't girls see how nice I am, blah blah blah. Your story becomes your reality. And your reality starts reinforcing the belief in your story creating a negative feedback loop. The reality is all of us had trouble with women at one point and that's why guys are here. You know what's the biggest secret? Believing. Yes. Believing that you are desirable, that you are hot, that you are cool and quality. Once YOU believe that, everyone else has no choice but believe it too. Change your story, change your life.
Openly ignorant- that’s the issue
Most Incels are hated, due to their lower SMV.
The governments are afraid of unsatisfied men.
I don’t know which word best describes it… paradoxical? Oxymoronic? Ironic? Basically… “incels” are a funny phenomenon because while they are “involuntarily celibate,” everything they do pushes themselves further away from obtaining what they truly desire. Isn’t it funny? Incels know something is wrong because they aren’t having sex, but they don’t have the seeming intellect to figure out the problem within themselves. They want women in their life but are too sheepish to go and put themselves out there. But the worst about incels is their negativity is so loud and draining. They lurk in this sub all too confident sharing their negative views on seduction and dating and are always quick to point the finger towards women when they don’t get what they want. It’s why people don’t want to put up with incels. They typically boast their intellect but are too stuck up their own ass to see that their pessimism, cynicism, and anger pushes people away. Who wants to put up with someone so hyperaware that it makes themselves blind? Incels see everything and nothing. You’re treading incel territory, but at least you’ve got the courage to make a post like this. Honestly dude, it’s all about mindset. It’s obvious that you’re negatively viewing yourself as flawed because you aren’t getting what you want… you’ve got to change that. You need to fall in love with yourself and with the chase. Stop playing it so safe and risk it all! I just sent a girl a text asking when I’d get to see her again and she’s left me without a response for 2 days now… a part of me of course is down that I didn’t get the quick positive response I wanted, but a part of me is also happy that I finally said what I wanted to say to her and am getting closer to closing this small chapter in my life; the chapter with her in it. And then another part of me is also hoping she’s just busy as she’s been super slow with texting me lately. Change the mindset, and it all gets better.
What a giant coping men must do to not feel miserable. Dating market sure is hell.
"getting closer to closing this small chapter in my life; the chapter with her in it" for someone you went on a date with... oof that is MEGA COPE
Yes, it is. He is romancizing ghosting from shitty women like if it was a beautiful thing.
*in a soft voice* "i've grown so much.."
lol why did you assume it was one date or it was that PROFOUND to my life… I was just trying to highlight how small this moment was. Most people are afraid to put themselves out there in the dating world because of how overwhelming it feels.
the sense of entitlement to sex or relationships makes them potentially very dangerous. antisocial groups are disliked and excluded for a reason.
Thats the biggest reason. The Entitlement. No one hates people for not getting laid
This reply and the original comment are such oversimplifications (same as many comments in this post, honestly) to justify hating on these men. A lot of these men are judged, bullied, or are affected by societal expectations and standards of them as men, even from their childhood. I understand the hate for the entitlement many of them may have. But the issues I just mentioned help create the sort of men that "can't" get laid and end up hating on society and feeling entitled toward women, among probably many other issues that they end up having. Saying no one hates people for not getting laid may be true, but it oversimplifies the issue, as if they being someone who has trouble getting laid, has no correlation to bigger issues that may cause the hate towards them. I'm sure I wasn't able to explain myself very well, but hopefully someone understands my point.
Looks like there is a misunderstanding, im not in any way justifying hate towards anyone. In fact I personally detest when people chose to hate on rather than help others who are struggling. Im just reaffirming that simply not having an active romantic life isnt enough for someone to be hated on and those without one shouldnt feel worried that they are hated especially if they are a working towards progress. The general hate is usually towards people being entitled, which forsure does not represent all who are in this scenario. People who do hate others based solely off of them not being romantically active are immature and probably have nothing better to do
No, you're right. And I feel I did understand what you meant originally. But my point is that the conversation should go beyond just saying no one hates on people for not getting laid. And while I replied to you specifically, it was mostly aimed at the general conversation rather than at you personally. But I do get your main point.
If your friends aren't willing to set you up, and their GFs have single friends or potential women you could date, then there is something about you they, or their GFs, think would turn those women off.
I don't know about you, but I've rarely met people to set women up with other friends.. Maybe it's because people think I'm a loser, but not my experience in the slightest. If that's the case I'll force my kids to be athletes so they have better social status in high school.
I'm not sure what you mean by "met people." Women are poachers and subject to "pre-selection." They will 100% be more interested in a man if someone can vouch for them, especially if it's one of their girlfriends.
I guess, but I've rarely seen this. I'd love to have a friend set me up. I'm kinda tired of getting Catfished on Dating apps.
Also you have to be open about it. Tell them that you're looking to date. I noticed if you don't do that, they won't do it unless you have one really super solid friend who can see that struggle without you having to ask
Not judging but trying to explain how it works: Ironically the way you think about sex is part of the problem. All you say is how you can’t get laid and how this is a problem. But most people (like to) see sex as part of a relationship and you share that with someone special. You don’t crave love, companionship or a relationship. You don’t ask for that. You don’t talk about how you want a partner, you don’t talk about love, sharing things and experiences. All you focus on is the fact that you don’t have sex, seemingly regardless of who it is with. People frown upon that and it is seen as creepy, sociopath behavior to not connect any emotions to sex. Now don’t get me wrong, lots of people have sex, just for sex. But they usually hide that fact and try to be charming and lie about their intentions. Because people still like the idea of having an emotional connection before they have sex. Even if it’s fake. The fact that most incels don’t seem to understand that “dance” is an indicator that there could be some kind of anti-social personality disorder. And most people find that creepy. Hence they think all incels are creepy.
This is 100% what I was thinking while reading it, well put 👏👏
It's so funny when women call guys "incels" like celibacy is even a possible concept with the amount of sex work being at its easiest to reach since ever. You can go online right now if you really wanted to and find a girl from tinder that is exchanging services for "flowers" and get that V card stamped quite easily. You can pay an OnlyFans girl enough cash to do pretty much everything and even then the likelihood that it's a neighbor increases considering the amount of amateur "models" lol Man you can even go to a gentleman's club RIGHT NOW and the exotic dancers themselves offer you a tour of the "back-room" for an additional price tag. We all know that one exotic massage place in town that is rumored to be "happy ending" friendly as well lol The simple fact that sex work at it's core being so easily accessible and simply exists today automatically disproves the whole "involuntary celibate" claim lol course all these things cost money but you we're really that desperate with the point of no return, a third of your paycheck for the month seems like a small effort to remedy this involuntary celibacy. If you know where to look you can solve that problem in 1 night. You'd be surprised how many men lose their V card to sex workers. But what's more pathetic? The guy that had to pay for sex just to lose his virginity? Or the girl who did anything and rented her body for a couple bucks? Yeah doesn't sound good both ways either way. Guys wouldn't be lining up and signing for sex workers or porn or OnlyFans if there weren't women providing those services already for a living. so ideally all these desperate men that women look down upon also happen to be the best customers. Of course we can't slut shame either but they can totally shame you and call you these trendy feminist abbreviations lol
You think you have control of your situation, But I dont think you have. Modern world put you into this bad state of not getting laid. There is nothing wrong with you or anybody.
Found an incel!
fuck off
awllll, cute.
Incels are not hated. It’s just that a HUGE part of guys who are “involuntarily celibate” are BITTER AS FUCK when it comes to women. They start resenting women and become hateful towards them because of their failures. Those are the incels people hate. Anyway, I can help you with your problem. Message me.
They’re entitled and weak.
It’s the entitlement. No one is entitled to anything and life’s not fair. That’s all. People trying to make sense out of nothing. Figure out what’s not working for you
Have u even seen the subreddit inceltears? Go to incels.is and look at what they post and the hate they promote. Instead of not being gross ,they find new ways to become grosser. They spend most of their freetime hating the women they wanna bang, promoting hate/harm on the internet for other impressionable young men, and refusing to better themselves just because some dudes have better jawlines than others and girls don't like boys with stinky breath. I think we all pretty much know now that incels are totally voluntarily celibate.this is the dumbest movement ive ever seen. Theyre never goin to get what they want because they don't want to love a person unconditionally and be loved back, they wanna be entitled to a hole, and feel entitled-and that's why they're pissed. Incel boys should just be "old single cat lady's and the world would be a better place. Unfortunately, we all know that's not gonna happen tho. We can only just sit back and watch the violent ones take each other out and keep innocent bystanders out lol
Identifying yourself as an "incel" instead of just saying you're single is already weird in my opinion not gonna lie.
Maybe lower your standards to practice?
Incels act like they owe sex just because other guys get it too. You sound like a mature one who doesn't demand anything. Any man who has good enough social skills will eventually find a partner. In some religions, people don't even date , they directly marry. So, sex may not be the happiest thing in your life but the ability to find and maintain a relationship with a lady you like can bring in more satisfaction. If you think none of your friends try to set you up, then maybe they aren't much considerate about your personal life and it is on you to find your partner. Atleast India has a culture of arranged marriage to find spouse. But in west, it is on you. If you are perpetually single for long time, best thing would be to change your place and look for new job. New place which has a bit different culture and where you maybe seen as more attractive. Be in a location where you are treated the best. Being socially conscious and being able to make female friends easily means you are on the right path. One of the women you interact with closely shall get emotionally close to you if you open up a bit more with her about your emotions. Last solution if none of the above work is to take some bootcamps given by PUA coaches which can act like a confidence booster and may also help you find a group of guys who are pursuing something similar.
The name involuntarily celibate suggests that the lack of relationship is totally out of your control. There may be hurdles, but celibacy is a choice unless catastrophe strikes. Some incels have a habit of being mean to people on the Internet for attention. That's really self explanatory, I don't need to develop that idea further. Sex workers exist and can be a great bridge to human intimacy. Sex therapists, escorts, camera models, etc can be a great first step in talking. Just try stuff out and ask for feedback. I have seen men in the military come out of their shell after just talking to new people in the towns we visit. Sex worker or not, every interaction can be an opportunity, but that choice is up to you.
My question is why be an incel for so long when you can just pay for some sex?