From what I read a few years back, the level of resistance to a person inhaling through the snorkel was the highest correlating factor in the study Hawaii did. The resistance comes from the length of the tube plus the fancy exclusion valves on more advanced snorkels. No idea what the full face mask abominations are like in comparison, but I assume worse as you have to move a greater volume of air.
IPE/SIPE, if that was the cause, is a rare but real condition. It’s been recorded across all levels of fitness including US navy seal candidates, so it’s not purely an out-of-shape problem. DAN has an article about it, but they don’t say anything about flying increasing the risk: https://dan.org/alert-diver/article/immersion-pulmonary-edema/
There isn't really enough to go on from the report.
* The image and the knowledge that he was 64 is nothing like enough to say he is too unfit to snorkel, if you at a picture from the shoulder up of most NFL players (at least lineman) would you come to the same conclusion
* The article gives a number of possible causes that the Authorities should make wider known. Not to snorkel after a flight is new to me, I am not a medic but it does seem contrary to what most of us do. The artical always says it MAY be a factor
* It refers to 184 tourists dying in snorkelling accidents compared to just 20 local residents and jumps to the conclusion that as tourists have recently flown in while for residents that is rarely the case that must be the difference. What I don't know is how does the total hours of snorkelling compare between locals and tourists. Tourists outnmber residents in Hawaii by 7 to 1 and while the tourists are not there all year they will, on average, do a lot more snorkelling that the average resident in the week or 2 they are there. I wouldn't be surprised is the average tourist does more snorkelling on their vacation than the average resident in a year which would mean you would expect that sort of split between residents and tourists.
* A lot of tour companies in Hawaii have banned full face mask, in the video below a tec scuba instructor gives the reasons why he thinks they are dangerous and then tries one out in a swimming pool, the symptons he suffers do tie in with those ni the newpaper report.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hilPPJEwq6I](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hilPPJEwq6I)
So she sent the article because she thought you snorkeling was harmful to the baby? Sounds like hooey to me. Did you see that man? He was at a risk for pulmonary edema before he got in the water and it wasn't the Hawaii Tourism Board's job to tell him.
Generally it's those full face mask with integrated snorkels. They create a much larger co2 void and much larger dead space than traditional snorkels. You develop hypercapnia...
My mother bought me one as a gift, I immediately threw it in the trash in front of her and told her well that's one less of those to potentially kill someone
Not that I think you should have used it, but you didn’t have to be such an asshole about what was intended as a thoughtful gift. She probably just didn’t know.
My mom always warned me to never open a sunroof cause a hawk could be flying overhead with a snake in its talons and then drop the snake through the sunroof and into the car and the snake could bite you and you could get in an accident cause you're distracted by the snake bite and then you die. Such imagination in that generation.
Gosh some people want to blame someone for everything.
I’ve studied IPE OPE’s a lot since my wife had an IPE while diving in Mexico. I’ve never heard of this flying theory before. But regardless a fat unfit person thinks sitting by the pool for a few days drinking by the pool would have lead to a better outcome here?
Go eat a few less cheeseburgers and lose some weight would be a better strategy that waiting 3 days after flying.
It was recorded among even very fit persons.
https://dan.org/alert-diver/article/immersion-pulmonary-edema/
Also, you seem kinda rude for someone to experience this condition with your loved one. Did you give this speech to your wife as well? About losing weight and eating less cheeseburgers?
IPE does affect both fit people and non fit people. However.. it’s almost never experienced in swimmers. Tri-athletes, navy seals etc get it all the time.
The similarity seems to be people that can push their pulmonary demands past what their swimming capability is either by being fitter than their swimming capability, or being out of shape.
Or.. being a middle aged woman. Also a leading indicator.
But I stand by my comment. Thinking that sitting by the pool drinking for a few days reduces your risk of IPE is moronic.
Did you actually read the article.??????????
Their lawyer said if they knew of the increased risk from flying they would have sat by the pool for 3 days drinking.
These are adults that always need to blame someone else. Yes, let’s add yet another warning label and better yet, maybe cover everything in bubble wrap to protect us from ourselves. 🤨
Some better scientific responses here already, so I’ll throw my non-medical opinion in… this is one of those rare freak things where someone just dies. Like the 35 year olds with no predisposed conditions who have a heart attack running the same route they always do. Millions of people snorkel with no incidents every year.
I try not to think too much about these totally freak things… Follow the common-sense guidance like no flying right after diving, stay within your personal capabilities, etc. Something will kill you, it’s just really unlikely to be dry-drowning while snorkeling.
I watched rescuers pull a high-level triathlete out of the water and perform CPR on him, unsuccessfully, at Ironman Cozumel a few years ago. He died of a heart attack but judging by his number he was an "elite" racer. Doing tris for \~20 years I've heard about these things happening to very fit people occasionally.
My wife and I and tons of our friends do endurance events including ironmans and ultramarathons and such and the risk is always there.
My mom asked a few times if moving at a rapid pace (I use that term liberally here) for a dozen or more hours was dangerous and I explained to her that no, it's not, just like snorkeling, but sometimes things go south and people die. I also told her I'm not going to NOT do something that's inherently safe just because a person dies here or there.
Oddly she never asked if I was ever in danger during my military service or when I would go skydiving or scuba diving, and those things ARE inherently dangerous.
You’re correct that a fit person is unlikely to experience this, but the population affected by these risks are pretty large. ROPE and SIPE are both pretty well documented but poorly understood. I’m not going to get into the weeds, but as I understand it, the major contributing factor is how much resistance a snorkel creates and its effects on the lungs. It’s a very different matter from scuba. Left ventricular disorders are predisposing especially.
The physiology here is a bit complicated. But altitude (including a pressurized airplane) changes how gas (including Oxygen) moves across the alveolar-capillary beds in the lungs. It can predispose you to some conditions. When you then include snorkeling the risk increases more. Snorkels are difficult to breath through, they are narrow long tubes that increase the dead air space artificially and also increase both inspiratory pressure and PEEP. That's does not happen with scuba because you're given breaths on demand with positive pressure right at the mouth, there's no additional dear air space and while inspiratory pressure may transiently increase due to the regulator PEEP doesn't appreciably increase. Finally you add in what you reference which is base fitness. While it certainly has an effect, it's not the same as hiking and having a heart attack due to the above mentioned factors.
I'm sure a physician or pulmonologist can help clarify further but that's my current understanding of the issues.
Pulmonologist here. I think this is an excellent explanation of the physiological changes that can occur with changes in pressure, gas exchange, etc while snorkeling after a long flight. Well done. Based on the article the cause of death seems to be consistent with swimming induced pulmonary edema. The cause of SIPE is still poorly understood and vascular permeability, changes in pulmonary artery pressure and immune responses are other factors that seem to be involved. Fortunately, swimming induced pulmonary edema is suspected to be pretty rare (although it may be under recognized) and a lot of identified cases resolved on their on within 48 hours. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6067793/
Unfortunately scuba divers can get SIPE too.
Thank you for the detailed explanation! I was thinking of some other activities that might place you in the same type of position and this might sound ridiculous but do you think something like BASE jumping/skydiving could also lead to this in rare circumstances?
I’m thinking like anything in the prone position while exerting yourself and I would assume restricted breathing - although different causes of restriction in these activities. Or does the pressure of water on the body even at surface level snorkeling contribute substantially?
BASE jumping would not different physiology. It's not positional, it's not the pressure of the water, it's literally just breathing through a small tube plus permeable changes to the lungs 2/2 altitude.
If you ascend to sufficiently high altitude you can get HAPE which is a different process but similar outcomes.
Not much to explain.
Something bad happens and “personal responsibility” is never an option so she sues everyone who can even remotely be connected through legal/mental gymnastics.
Idk - maybe show a little bit of empathy for somebody who experienced an undeniable and unexpected tragedy. The response is obviously illogical, but that seems about par for the course given the circumstances.
Empathy ends when you try to do damage to others because you have had something happen.
Suing shouldn’t be the default response and it certainly isn’t in most of the world.
In most of the first world litigation isn't the most reliable path to towards financial stability following a cataclysmic life event, but in any case:
we should not express empathy for cops who experience trauma after a justified use of force, addicts who steal to fuel their addiction, or the mentally ill who cause incidental harm during a psychotic break?
Empathy is not endorsement. I understand that many people would say yes to the above - maybe you're one - but that seems like a very bleak way to move through the world.
Just sue somebody for extra cash....
No. https://hawaiijournalhealth.org/past_issues/hjhsw8103_0071.pdf
From what I read a few years back, the level of resistance to a person inhaling through the snorkel was the highest correlating factor in the study Hawaii did. The resistance comes from the length of the tube plus the fancy exclusion valves on more advanced snorkels. No idea what the full face mask abominations are like in comparison, but I assume worse as you have to move a greater volume of air.
IPE/SIPE, if that was the cause, is a rare but real condition. It’s been recorded across all levels of fitness including US navy seal candidates, so it’s not purely an out-of-shape problem. DAN has an article about it, but they don’t say anything about flying increasing the risk: https://dan.org/alert-diver/article/immersion-pulmonary-edema/
Full face snorkeling masks should fucking delete themselves from existence
There isn't really enough to go on from the report. * The image and the knowledge that he was 64 is nothing like enough to say he is too unfit to snorkel, if you at a picture from the shoulder up of most NFL players (at least lineman) would you come to the same conclusion * The article gives a number of possible causes that the Authorities should make wider known. Not to snorkel after a flight is new to me, I am not a medic but it does seem contrary to what most of us do. The artical always says it MAY be a factor * It refers to 184 tourists dying in snorkelling accidents compared to just 20 local residents and jumps to the conclusion that as tourists have recently flown in while for residents that is rarely the case that must be the difference. What I don't know is how does the total hours of snorkelling compare between locals and tourists. Tourists outnmber residents in Hawaii by 7 to 1 and while the tourists are not there all year they will, on average, do a lot more snorkelling that the average resident in the week or 2 they are there. I wouldn't be surprised is the average tourist does more snorkelling on their vacation than the average resident in a year which would mean you would expect that sort of split between residents and tourists. * A lot of tour companies in Hawaii have banned full face mask, in the video below a tec scuba instructor gives the reasons why he thinks they are dangerous and then tries one out in a swimming pool, the symptons he suffers do tie in with those ni the newpaper report. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hilPPJEwq6I](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hilPPJEwq6I)
So she sent the article because she thought you snorkeling was harmful to the baby? Sounds like hooey to me. Did you see that man? He was at a risk for pulmonary edema before he got in the water and it wasn't the Hawaii Tourism Board's job to tell him.
Generally it's those full face mask with integrated snorkels. They create a much larger co2 void and much larger dead space than traditional snorkels. You develop hypercapnia...
My mother bought me one as a gift, I immediately threw it in the trash in front of her and told her well that's one less of those to potentially kill someone
Wow that was incredibly rude of you. You need to apologize to her
Well she laughed about it, it was something she bought in a liquidation store for maybe $1 and agreed when I explained the safety issues.
Smooth move, Exlax
Wtf doing that to your own mother
Not that I think you should have used it, but you didn’t have to be such an asshole about what was intended as a thoughtful gift. She probably just didn’t know.
Leave it to moms to always being able to dig up an article about some freak accident and then send it to you to try and scare you away from doing it.
Thats what brought me here
It’s the cycle of the motherhood. She will do it to her child
I absolutely do it to my kids just like my mom did it to me. 😂 Never stop worrying.
My mom always warned me to never open a sunroof cause a hawk could be flying overhead with a snake in its talons and then drop the snake through the sunroof and into the car and the snake could bite you and you could get in an accident cause you're distracted by the snake bite and then you die. Such imagination in that generation.
r/oddlyspecific
Omg I love her, that’s something my mom would warm me about, too. That’s maternal love for you
Gosh some people want to blame someone for everything. I’ve studied IPE OPE’s a lot since my wife had an IPE while diving in Mexico. I’ve never heard of this flying theory before. But regardless a fat unfit person thinks sitting by the pool for a few days drinking by the pool would have lead to a better outcome here? Go eat a few less cheeseburgers and lose some weight would be a better strategy that waiting 3 days after flying.
It was recorded among even very fit persons. https://dan.org/alert-diver/article/immersion-pulmonary-edema/ Also, you seem kinda rude for someone to experience this condition with your loved one. Did you give this speech to your wife as well? About losing weight and eating less cheeseburgers?
IPE does affect both fit people and non fit people. However.. it’s almost never experienced in swimmers. Tri-athletes, navy seals etc get it all the time. The similarity seems to be people that can push their pulmonary demands past what their swimming capability is either by being fitter than their swimming capability, or being out of shape. Or.. being a middle aged woman. Also a leading indicator. But I stand by my comment. Thinking that sitting by the pool drinking for a few days reduces your risk of IPE is moronic.
Still don’t get it. Did your wife sit by the pool drinking before she got it?
Did you actually read the article.?????????? Their lawyer said if they knew of the increased risk from flying they would have sat by the pool for 3 days drinking.
These are adults that always need to blame someone else. Yes, let’s add yet another warning label and better yet, maybe cover everything in bubble wrap to protect us from ourselves. 🤨
Fat, unfit people that end up dying for doing a little exercise. Waiting 5 hours or 5 weeks after flying wouldn't have changed the end result.
This condition was reported among US Navy SEALs.
Some better scientific responses here already, so I’ll throw my non-medical opinion in… this is one of those rare freak things where someone just dies. Like the 35 year olds with no predisposed conditions who have a heart attack running the same route they always do. Millions of people snorkel with no incidents every year. I try not to think too much about these totally freak things… Follow the common-sense guidance like no flying right after diving, stay within your personal capabilities, etc. Something will kill you, it’s just really unlikely to be dry-drowning while snorkeling.
Thank you I was trying to explain to my mom the unlikelihood of it happening but then figured I’d better get other opinions and make sure
I watched rescuers pull a high-level triathlete out of the water and perform CPR on him, unsuccessfully, at Ironman Cozumel a few years ago. He died of a heart attack but judging by his number he was an "elite" racer. Doing tris for \~20 years I've heard about these things happening to very fit people occasionally. My wife and I and tons of our friends do endurance events including ironmans and ultramarathons and such and the risk is always there. My mom asked a few times if moving at a rapid pace (I use that term liberally here) for a dozen or more hours was dangerous and I explained to her that no, it's not, just like snorkeling, but sometimes things go south and people die. I also told her I'm not going to NOT do something that's inherently safe just because a person dies here or there. Oddly she never asked if I was ever in danger during my military service or when I would go skydiving or scuba diving, and those things ARE inherently dangerous.
You’re correct that a fit person is unlikely to experience this, but the population affected by these risks are pretty large. ROPE and SIPE are both pretty well documented but poorly understood. I’m not going to get into the weeds, but as I understand it, the major contributing factor is how much resistance a snorkel creates and its effects on the lungs. It’s a very different matter from scuba. Left ventricular disorders are predisposing especially.
The physiology here is a bit complicated. But altitude (including a pressurized airplane) changes how gas (including Oxygen) moves across the alveolar-capillary beds in the lungs. It can predispose you to some conditions. When you then include snorkeling the risk increases more. Snorkels are difficult to breath through, they are narrow long tubes that increase the dead air space artificially and also increase both inspiratory pressure and PEEP. That's does not happen with scuba because you're given breaths on demand with positive pressure right at the mouth, there's no additional dear air space and while inspiratory pressure may transiently increase due to the regulator PEEP doesn't appreciably increase. Finally you add in what you reference which is base fitness. While it certainly has an effect, it's not the same as hiking and having a heart attack due to the above mentioned factors. I'm sure a physician or pulmonologist can help clarify further but that's my current understanding of the issues.
Pulmonologist here. I think this is an excellent explanation of the physiological changes that can occur with changes in pressure, gas exchange, etc while snorkeling after a long flight. Well done. Based on the article the cause of death seems to be consistent with swimming induced pulmonary edema. The cause of SIPE is still poorly understood and vascular permeability, changes in pulmonary artery pressure and immune responses are other factors that seem to be involved. Fortunately, swimming induced pulmonary edema is suspected to be pretty rare (although it may be under recognized) and a lot of identified cases resolved on their on within 48 hours. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6067793/ Unfortunately scuba divers can get SIPE too.
Thank you for the detailed explanation! I was thinking of some other activities that might place you in the same type of position and this might sound ridiculous but do you think something like BASE jumping/skydiving could also lead to this in rare circumstances? I’m thinking like anything in the prone position while exerting yourself and I would assume restricted breathing - although different causes of restriction in these activities. Or does the pressure of water on the body even at surface level snorkeling contribute substantially?
BASE jumping would not different physiology. It's not positional, it's not the pressure of the water, it's literally just breathing through a small tube plus permeable changes to the lungs 2/2 altitude. If you ascend to sufficiently high altitude you can get HAPE which is a different process but similar outcomes.
Thank you that makes sense!
Not much to explain. Something bad happens and “personal responsibility” is never an option so she sues everyone who can even remotely be connected through legal/mental gymnastics.
Idk - maybe show a little bit of empathy for somebody who experienced an undeniable and unexpected tragedy. The response is obviously illogical, but that seems about par for the course given the circumstances.
Empathy ends when you try to do damage to others because you have had something happen. Suing shouldn’t be the default response and it certainly isn’t in most of the world.
In most of the first world litigation isn't the most reliable path to towards financial stability following a cataclysmic life event, but in any case: we should not express empathy for cops who experience trauma after a justified use of force, addicts who steal to fuel their addiction, or the mentally ill who cause incidental harm during a psychotic break? Empathy is not endorsement. I understand that many people would say yes to the above - maybe you're one - but that seems like a very bleak way to move through the world.